An honest question to the various FE's on here. Physics comes as a package of integrated ideas, layers of logic if you will, each one built upon the last either refining it (e.g Newtonian gravitation --> Eistein's general theory) or destroying it to start again from the last universally agreed point. This is the scientific method, it is not a body of information as such, more a method of establishing the information, agreeing what is fact (stands up to repeated testing and scrutiny of empirical data) or fiction (does not stand up to scrutiny and is not repeatable).

In any argument there comes a fork in the road, a place where people deviate in their interpretation of the data (assuming they are using data). In FE theory there appears to be some acceptance that the Universe is a Physical place with laws that must be obeyed i.e. the universe has logical rules and limits. It does not claim to be a superstitious movement based on claims of faith and belief. The problem for me then is that when the rules of reason and logic are applied via mathematics and laws of Physics FE theory is not complete (I will give a very clear example in a moment). Indeed, there comes a point where FE refutes some Physics law or makes up a new phenomena that superficially explains an observation but at its root is not supported by testable science. see my thread in the Q section 'What do we know about the Sun' and 'Do my eyes deceive me' where I believe I have comprehensively shown that the 'spotlight' model for the sun simply does not agree with experience and measurement. At the tail end of those debates I arrive at the orbital motion of the Sun around the Northern Hub in concentric and fluctuating radii as proof that the solar system proposed by FE simply cannot be. On its own this is more than enough to create a crisis of logic in FE theory. My specific question then is:

Q1. How can the Sun move in concentric orbits (explaining the seasons) and still satisfy the Law of the conservation of Energy. The most basic law of the universe, one which must be obeyed and is the root of ALL logic in the realm of the scientific model. (Specifics: Moving at a constant 24hr period to satisfy night/day would require greater speed in Winter and thus the kinetic and potential energy of the system would be greater).

see the animated model and diagram summarising the situation for orbits in different seasons: https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Flat_Earth_Seasons.svg

and therefor, additionally

Q2. If the sun's orbit in the summer has a smaller radii why does its period not alter as conservation of momentum demands. This would of course shorten the period of a day (which we surely can all agree does not happen). Again, this is a phenomena that any person can model. The classic classroom experiment involves rotating a pupil in a chair, the pupil is holding weights and when they hold them tight to the chest they rotate fast and when extended they rotate slowly, thus conserving momentum. This is analogous to Summer versus winter in the FE model of orbits. 

The law of conservation of energy applies ONLY to ordinary matter.

If ether comes into play, the law of conservation of energy will ALWAYS be defied (Allais effect, DePalma effect, Biefeld-Brown effect).

Koronium:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2057945#msg2057945 (two consecutive messages)

Newtonium:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2064764#msg2064764 (two consecutive messages

I say this with as much respect as I can muster but FE theory really needs to be consistent with modern science (after 19th century), modern theories and modern measurement techniques. The anomaly you are quoting has been soundly researched in light of new information regarding the temperature of the Corona. In 1869 our knowledge of the Sun and its atmosphere was rudimentary to say the least. We now know that the temperature of the Corona can get up as high as several million degrees. More than hot enough to cause the extreme ionising of Iron, Calcium and Nickel that would explain the phenomena.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/nuclear-physics

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/FAQ/Qcorona.html

Quote
Although the internal structure of the solar core is hidden from direct observations, one may conclude, from using various models, that the maximum temperature inside of our star is about 16 million degrees (Celsius). The photosphere - the visible surface of the Sun - has a temperature of about 6000 degrees C. However, the temperature increases very steeply from 6000 degrees to a few million degrees in the corona, in the region 500 kilometers above the photosphere.

Now all that aside I fail to see how the presence of some 'other' type of matter would produce a measurable effect when so much normal matter is about. You are turning over the entire canon of classical Physics, Newton's Laws, the whole lot in favour of the mere mention of the possibility of another unusual type of matter. The scientific method demands a far more rigorous proof and acceptance before if is used to inform the models that currently exist. Otherwise every anomalous piece of data could be thrown into the mix and nothing would ever be established.

Quoting preminent scientists and Naubel laureates is a cute ploy but even the great Einstein and countless of his peers got things wrong along the way. Critically, they accepted the fact and went back to the drawing board. No matter what the sacrifice was in terms of years of effort and reputation. That is good science.

The anomaly you are quoting has been soundly researched in light of new information regarding the temperature of the Corona. In 1869 our knowledge of the Sun and its atmosphere was rudimentary to say the least. We now know that the temperature of the Corona can get up as high as several million degrees.

Your quote shows that you haven't done your homework at all on the subject.

The hypothesis regarding the very hot temperature of the solar corona originated with B. Edlen's analysis of the unusual spectral features.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspas.2018.00009/full

He was faced with a basic choice: either accept that at least two lighter than hydrogen elements are emitted by the Sun (even though Newtonium is released by the Black Sun), or put forth an outrageous hypothesis where the temperature of the solar corona becomes at least 400 times hotter than the temperature of the photosphere (even though the reverse temperature gradient of the Sun contradicts every original expectation of the thermonuclear model). This implausible supposition had to be accompanied by an even more outlandish explanation: magnetic reconnection.

The idea that the solar corona temperature reaches millions of degrees C was put forth by Edlen, since he could not accept the existence of an element which is lighter than hydrogen.

No proof, no theory, nothing at all.

Just an outrageous hypothesis which is far from a scientific method.

On one side we have the solar atmosphere, on the other side the extreme cold of outer space. In between, according to Edlen, we have the solar corona which is even hotter than the solar core.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080625183153/http://rocinante.colorado.edu/~mnowak/PR/text.html

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/asna.200710803

In 1949, H. Friedman put forth another related hypothesis: that solar x-rays emissions had a thermal origin.

However, x-rays from the Sun are not generated thermally, electromagnetic particles are being accelerated through the Sun's own ether field to create x-rays. The cause of the solar x-rays is electrical, not thermal.


The huge temperatures of the solar corona were invented ad-hoc, with no proof behind this impossible idea.

In order to explain these colossal temperatures, heliophysicists invented, again ad-hoc, another hare brained concept: magnetic reconnection.

Dr. Hannes Alfven, Nobel prize laureate, stated that the concept of magnetic "merging" or "reconnection" was a pseudo-science which was infecting cosmology and even plasma science:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23869134_On_frozen-in_field_lines_and_field-line_reconnection

Dr. Donald Scott on the erroneous concept of magnetic reconnection:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110301221517/http://members.cox.net/dascott3/IEEE-TransPlasmaSci-Scott-Aug2007.pdf

The most devastating analysis of the notion of magnetic reconnection was published by Walter J. Heikkila in the Astrophysics and Space Science journal:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1973Ap%26SS..23..261H

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00645155

Double Layers in Astrophysics (NASA Conference Publication 2469)

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19870013880.pdf

Magnetic Merging -- A Pseudo-Science

Since then I have stressed in a large number of papers the danger of using the frozen-in concept. For example, in a paper "Electric Current Structure of the Magnetosphere" (Alfven, 1975), I made a table showing the difference between the real plasma and "a fictitious medium" called "the pseudo-plasma," the latter having frozenin magnetic field lines moving with the plasma. The most important criticism of the "merging" mechanism of energy transfer is due to Heikkila (1973) who with increasing strength has demonstrated that it is wrong. In spite of all this, we have witnessed at the same time an enormously voluminous formalism building up based on this obviously erroneous concept. Indeed, we have been burdened with a gigantic pseudo-science which penetrates large parts of cosmic plasma physics. The monograph CP treats the field-line reconnection (merging) concept in I. 3, II. 3, and I1.5. We may conclude that anyone who uses the merging concepts states by implication that no double layers exist.

A new epoch in magnetospheric physics was inaugurated by L. Lyons and D. Williams' monograph (1985). They treat magnetospheric phenomena systematically by the particle approach and demonstrate that the fluid dynamic approach gives erroneous results. The error of the latter approach is of a basic character. Of course there can be no magnetic merging energy transfer.

I was naive enough to believe that such a pseudo-science would die by itself in the scientific community, and I concentrated my work on more pleasant problems. To my great surprise the opposite has occurred; the "merging" pseudo-science seems to be increasingly powerful. Magnetospheric physics and solar wind physics today are no doubt in a chaotic state, and a major reason for this is that some of the published papers are science and part pseudoscience, perhaps even with a majority for the latter group.

In those parts of solar physics which do not deal with the interior of the Sun and the dense photospheric region (fields where the frozen-in concept may be valid), the state is even worse. It is difficult to find theoretical papers on the low density regions which are correct. The present state of plasma astrophysics seems to be almost completely isolated from the new concepts of plasma which the in situ measurements on space plasma have made necessary (see Section VIII).

I sincerely hope that the increased interest in the study of double layers -- which is fatal to this pseudoscience -- will change the situation. Whenever we find a double layer (or any other Ell ≠ 0) we hammer a nail into the coffin of the "merging" pseudo-science.

Dr. Hannes Alfven, Nobel prize laureate
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 02:54:04 PM by sandokhan »

Look, the measurement of the temperature of objects, including gas atmospheres around stars is studied at Higher level Physics and the theory (Blackbody radiation) is used by astronomers around the world to make direct measurements of the corona. Any amateur Astronomer with a telescope, a spectrophotometer and one of these tables (http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/B/Blackbody+Radiation ) can directly measure the temperature of the Corona and confirm that its temperature is above 1 000 000 degrees. Stop spamming me with ancient links and stop over complicating this. Simple theories do work, and the theory of Blackbody radiation is ANOTHER EXHAUSTIVELY TESTED AND WIDELY REPORTED THEORY for measuring the temperature of anything that emits light. Every astronomer in the world would cite it as one of the greatest tools they have for remote sensing of stars.

Quote
The colour of light a star emits is related to its temperature. This means that we can determine the effective temperature of the Sun by measuring the amount of light it emits at each wavelength and comparing the resulting spectrum we see to models. Another approach is to record which absorption lines are present in the solar spectrum and determine their strengths; both the elements present and their strengths are sensitive to temperature. These different methods all show that the effective temperature of the Sun’s surface is around 5,800 kelvins (9,980 degrees Fahrenheit [5,520 degrees Celsius]).

So although the Sun’s corona at a temperature of over a million kelvins (1,800,000 F [1,000,000 C]) is significantly hotter than the photosphere, the vast majority of the light we use to measure the effective temperature of the Sun comes from its photosphere. The contribution from the corona is minuscule in comparison.

http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2018/01/measuring-the-suns-temperature

I raise it here because we now have a very good understanding of the Fusion reactions that power the Sun. These reactions define the Sun's size and its power.

You do not have any understanding of what really powers the Sun.

The CNO cycle defies the solar nuclear furnace hypothesis:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1827377#msg1827377


Look, the measurement of the temperature of objects, including gas atmospheres around stars is studied at Higher level Physics and the theory (Blackbody radiation) is used by astronomers around the world to make direct measurements of the corona.

Right, but you also quoted this:

The colour of light a star emits is related to its temperature.

This is an unproven hypothesis.

The colour of light a star emits is related to the density of ether, not to the temperature.

Again, you need MAGNECTIC RECONNECTION to scientifically justify the million degrees temperature of the solar corona.

There is no such thing as magnetic reconnection, please read my previous message.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 03:14:59 PM by sandokhan »

Look, the measurement of the temperature of objects, including gas atmospheres around stars is studied at Higher level Physics and the theory (Blackbody radiation) is used by astronomers around the world to make direct measurements of the corona. Any amateur Astronomer with a telescope, a spectrophotometer and one of these tables (http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/B/Blackbody+Radiation ) can directly measure the temperature of the Corona and confirm that its temperature is above 1 000 000 degrees. Stop spamming me with ancient links and stop over complicating this. Simple theories do work, and the theory of Blackbody radiation is ANOTHER EXHAUSTIVELY TESTED AND WIDELY REPORTED THEORY for measuring the temperature of anything that emits light. Every astronomer in the world would cite it as one of the greatest tools they have for remote sensing of stars.

Quote
The colour of light a star emits is related to its temperature. This means that we can determine the effective temperature of the Sun by measuring the amount of light it emits at each wavelength and comparing the resulting spectrum we see to models. Another approach is to record which absorption lines are present in the solar spectrum and determine their strengths; both the elements present and their strengths are sensitive to temperature. These different methods all show that the effective temperature of the Sun’s surface is around 5,800 kelvins (9,980 degrees Fahrenheit [5,520 degrees Celsius]).

So although the Sun’s corona at a temperature of over a million kelvins (1,800,000 F [1,000,000 C]) is significantly hotter than the photosphere, the vast majority of the light we use to measure the effective temperature of the Sun comes from its photosphere. The contribution from the corona is minuscule in comparison.

http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2018/01/measuring-the-suns-temperature

sandokhan was nice enough to provide you with a lengthy response and reference material via links.  you posted a response 12 minutes after he posted...so you obviously took no time to read the material.  You just want to respond and say you are right without any type of critical thought and not taking any time to review the information provided.  you ask questions, we take time to respond, and then you ignore it and keep going.   you are a lost cause.

p.s. i thought you said you were going to start reading ENAG?   ::)
Quote from: SiDawg
Planes fall out of the sky all the time

Quote
sandokhan was nice enough to provide you with a lengthy response and reference material via links.  you posted a response 12 minutes after he posted...so you obviously took no time to read the material.

Yes, but Sandokhan also said

Quote
The colour of light a star emits is related to its temperature.

This is an unproven hypothesis.

The colour of light a star emits is related to the density of ether, not to the temperature.

Time and time again FE theorists quote unsubstantiated theories WITH NO DATA to back them up while well established theories with endless mountains of data (all consistent) are discounted. I have no idea how Sandokhan is able to assert that Blackbody radiation does not exist while the 'Ether' does. We absolutely CAN say that the Suns corona exceeds 1 million degrees because we can measure it with a method that can be demonstrated and corroborated in countless independent contexts. Whereas the 'Ether' has never been detected and has no data to support its existence. If I am mistaken, please link to some data.

The way that FE theory is argued is more akin to religious people quoting the bible. The bible makes baseless assertions that cant be tested or repeated. The example we have here is exactly similar.

Why should I spend my time reading spurious articles about a method which cannot be used to explain the temperature of the corona. It is moot point, we can directly measure the temperature of the Corona so a method obviously DOES exist to cause the temperature we see.

Whereas the 'Ether' has never been detected and has no data to support its existence. If I am mistaken, please link to some data.

The existence of the POTENTIAL, the bidirectional set of longitudinal waves (ether) has been proven in 1903 and 1904 by E.T. Whittaker:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1994059#msg1994059

Ether drift results:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Blackbody radiation

The ether's blackbody radiation = CMBR:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1828839#msg1828839


On the validity of Kirchhoff's law of thermal emission

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1265348/

https://www.libertariannews.org/2014/04/04/kirchhoffs-law-proven-invalid-the-implications-are-enormous/

Further, all blackbodies are limited to solids, since only they can be perfect absorbers, and unlike liquids, they cannot sustain convection.  Prof. Robitaille also explains why gases do not follow these laws because they do not emit radiation in a continuous manner, further discrediting the standard model of stars.  The emissivity of a real gas drops with temperature. Planck’s equation remains the only fundamental equation that has yet to be linked to physical reality, which is a direct result of Kirchhoff’s error.

Prof. Robitaille notes that the standard gaseous Sun model uses equations of radiative transfer, and those equations all have, at their source, KLTE.  The invalidity of KLTE means there cannot be blackbody radiation at the center of the Sun, which means the entire standard model of the gaseous Sun is invalid.



https://principia-scientific.org/new-study-invalidates-kirchhoff-s-law-of-thermal-emission/

https://web.archive.org/web/20160211150839/http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2015/PP-41-04.PDF

“The Theory of Heat Radiation” Revisited:
A Commentary on the Validity of Kirchhoff’s Law of Thermal Emission
and Max Planck’s Claim of Universality


Dextrorotatory potential gravitational waves blackbody radiation:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.04199.pdf

wow....that is a veritable braindump of huge proportions.....upon initial inspection it certainly is very, very, very complex reading. I will persist but you will have to forgive that I cannot digest that much information in one night while the world cup is on.

a few things do concern me however........

1. The first paper by Whittaker appears to be a reformulation of Maxwell's equations but I am struggling to see anywhere that explicitly concludes that both EM AND gravitational waves can be reformulated into two scalar potential functions. If you are familiar with the paper can you isolate that portion on gravity because I can't find it. It is rather important to the context of this debate.

As such the earth shattering claim that Whittaker managed the 'unification of quantum mechanics, general relativity, ether theory into one single subject: ELECTROGRAVITY' seems premature. If he had you would imagine scientists to this day would be pouring over his writings trying to make a name for themselves by demonstrating the effect. As I have said many times, real science involves REPRODUCABILITY. Why has this feat never been practically reproduced? Afterall, you are aware of it, I am aware of it and there seem to be lots of Physics discussion boards where Whittaker's work is discussed. He is a credible scientist, that doesn't mean he formulated an Electro-gravitational theory. One might imagine that given that unification of the forces is the holy grail of Physics that we Whittaker might have more heat on him?? Maybe?

2. The second link appears to overturn the famous Michelson-Morley experiment which proved there was no ether. Again, the devices needed repeat such experiments exist in relative abundance these days and they are far more precise. Why are there no scientists claiming the scalp of M-M and raising a clamour for the revision of Special relativity which certainly could not hold if the speed of light was affected by its passage through the ether. Indeed the LIGO experiment that searches fro gravitational waves is essentially doing M-M experiment day in day out and its accuracy is several orders of magnitude above that of the original experiment, such that the Earth's movement during a few minutes would be enough to generate easily measured changes. No such anomalies have ever been reported. Care to comment?

3. On a more superficial level the second paper was published in a non-mainstream publication known for 'alternative science' that debunks among other theories relativity, big bang, plate tech tonics.  Now these theories could be wrong, but if so, why are scientists not piling in to debunk them. Scientists LOVE doing that sort of thing. It gets them off!!!! In addition, the abstract does not instill confidence when it is comprehensively full of meaningless technobabble, e.g. " demonstrated a metal-reflectable solar-modulated energy affecting the physical chemistry of water, chemical reactions and radioactive decay rates, correlated to Earth's spiral-form motion through cosmic space".....wtf?!!

And how about "Miller's computed axis of Earth's net motion of ether-drift is in close agreement with findings from diverse disciplines,
including from biology and physics"
. Diverse disciplines oooohh Jeez this is beginning to sound like a high school essay where the pupil needs to pad so reaches for the thesaurus. I am not filled with confidence.

Look, on the evidence of these first two links what you have furnished is a cornucopia of esoteric articles, some bona fide, some questionable but given that they attempt to overturn some of the most well established theories in the world they need to be repeatable. And thus my final point, the Ether paper (link 2) goes into lots of digressive detail on 'Reich’s Dynamic Ether-Like Orgone' but has zero detail regarding the apparatus and its setup.

Can you even begin to explain what the significance of an Ether like Orgone is? I'll warrant that very few people give you much comeback when you fire the mother-load of 'Science' their way. However, there is data therein and I asked for data. Just be advised, I have an expectation that you understand the stuff you sent to a reasonable degree otherwise how could you cite it with confidence. I will admit my complex number theory might not be what it once was. But I know technobabble when I read it, and that second abstract was a veritable study in it!

both EM AND gravitational waves can be reformulated into two scalar potential functions.

Dr. Terence W. Barrett (Stanford Univ., Princeton Univ., US Naval Research Laboratory, Univ. of Edinburgh):







"Whittaker proved the existence of a "hidden" set of electromagnetic waves traveling in two simultaneous directions in the scalar potential of the vacuum -- demonstrating how to use them to curve the local and/or distant "spacetime" with electromagnetic radiation. This key Whittaker paper thus lays the direct mathematical foundation for an electrogravitic theory/technology of gravity control.
 
In the second paper, Whittaker demonstrated how two "Maxwellian scalar potentials of the vacuum" -- gravitationally curving spacetime -- could be turned back into a detectable "ordinary" electromagnetic field by two interfering "scalar EM waves"... even at a distance."

Whittaker accomplished this by demonstrating mathematically that,

"the field of force due to a gravitating body can be analyzed, by a spectrum analysis’ as it were, into an infinite number of constituent fields; and although the whole field of force does not vary with time, yet each of the constituent fields is an ondulatory character, consisting of a simple-disturbance propagated with uniform velocity ... [and] the waves will be longitudinal (top) ... These results assimilate the propagation of gravity to that of light ... [and] would require that gravity be propagated with a finite velocity, which however need not be the same as that of light [emphasis added], and may be enormously greater ..."

E.T. Whittaker:







The seminal Aharonov-Bohm paper:

https://journals.aps.org/pr/pdf/10.1103/PhysRev.115.485

The Aharonov-Bohm effect, where potentials alone can interfere, even  in the absence of EM force fields, and produce real force effects in  charged particle systems. That is, the sole agent of the interference  of scalar potentials can induce EM changes, according to the  experimentally proven Aharonov-Bohm effect, even in the total absence  of EM force fields.

Since 1959, it has been known in quantum mechanics that the EM force  fields are not primary agents at all. We know that classical EM theory  is completely wrong on this. QM shows that it's the potentials that  are primary, not the force fields. In fact, it can be shown that the E-  field and B- field do not exist as such in vacuum; only the potential for the E-field and the B-field exist in vacuum. Feynman pointed that  out, but nearly all of his modern cohorts seem not to have recognized  that fact. Indeed, vacuum is just a conglomerate of potentials,  nothing more, nothing less.



Maxwell-Lodge effect:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1998993#msg1998993

Bohren experiment:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2001816#msg2001816 (two consecutive messages)




Tesla bifilar coil experiment proof of the existence of ether:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2018999#msg2018999


Biefeld-Brown effect verified completely at the Honda R&D Institute:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2031282#msg2031282

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1913909#msg1913909 (Biefeld-Brown effect in full vacuum)


Again, the devices needed repeat such experiments exist in relative abundance these days and they are far more precise.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg865008#msg865008 (fake special theory of relativity experiments)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 04:24:35 AM by sandokhan »

The second link appears to overturn the famous Michelson-Morley experiment which proved there was no ether.

E.J. Post, one of the greatest experts on the Sagnac effect of the 20th century, has proven that the Michelson interferometer is actually a Sagnac interferometer.

In 1999 E. J. Post showed the equivalence between the Michelson-Morley experiment and the Sagnac experiment.

E. J. Post, A joint description of the Michelson Morley and Sagnac experiments.
Proceedings of the International Conference Galileo Back in Italy II, Bologna 1999,
Andromeda, Bologna 2000, p. 62

E. J. Post is the only person to notice the substantial identity  between the 1925 experiment and that of 1887: "To avoid possible confusion, it may be  remarked that the beam path in the more well-known Michelson-Morley interferometer, which was mounted on a turntable, does not enclose a finite surface area; therefore no fringe shift can be expected as a result of a uniform rotation of the latter".

E. J. Post, Reviews of Modern Physics. Vol. 39, n. 2, April 1967

A. Michelson and E. Morley SIMPLY MEASURED THE CORIOLIS EFFECT OF THE ETHER DRIFT. Since they did not use a phase-conjugate mirror or a fiber optic equipment, the Coriolis force effects ("attractive" and "repulsive") upon the light offset each other.

The positive (slight deviations) from the null result are due to a residual surface enclosed by the multiple path beam (the Coriolis effect registered by a Sagnac interferometer).

Dr. Patrick Cornille (Essays on the Formal Aspects of Electromagnetic Theory, pg. 141):


You make this statement:

Quote
"Whittaker proved the existence of a "hidden" set of electromagnetic waves traveling in two simultaneous directions in the scalar potential of the vacuum -- demonstrating how to use them to curve the local and/or distant "spacetime" with electromagnetic radiation"

you then quote this segment of his conclusion:

Quote
These results assimilate the propagation of gravity to that of light ... [and] would require that gravity be propagated with a finite velocity, which however need not be the same as that of light [emphasis added], and may be enormously greater ..."

A great deal of context is missing. The bolded statement gives the impression that a theory unifying EM and gravitational forces has been formulated. This is NOT what Whitaker says in the body of the paragraph. I quote that whole section of the conclusion:

Quote
But these results assimilate the propagation of gravity to that of light: for the undulatory phenomena just described, in which the varying vector is a gravitational force perpendicular to the wave front, may be compared with the undulatory phenomena made familiar by the electromagnetic theory of light, in which the varying vectors consist of electric and magnetic forces parallel to the wavefront. The waves are in other respects exactly similar, and it seems possible that an identical property of the medium ensures their transmission through space.

Not the phrase "may be be compared". This is contrary to the word "assimilate". The definition of assimilate is 'to understand and remember new information and make it part of your basic knowledge'.(Cambridge). THAT is the context that Whittaker was referring to.

So, certainly it seems Whittaker was ahead of his time in formulating a theory of gravitational waves and he points out that all these forces that transmit through the action of undulating fields have common properties. He is explicitly NOT saying that EM waves cause gravity waves, far less the curving of space time that gravity is expressed as doing in the general theory.

Indeed he makes this explicit in his final paragraph:

Quote
"Of course, this investigation does not explain the cause of gravity"
[/b][/i]
compare this to YOUR initial statement

Quote
"Whittaker.... demonstrating how to use them to curve the local and/or distant "spacetime" with electromagnetic radiation"

Whittaker's final paragraph continues

Quote
"all that is done is to show that in order to account for the propogation across space of forces which vary as the inverse square of the distance, we have only to suppose that the medium is capable of transmitting, with a definite though large velocity, simple periodic undulatory disturbances, similar to those whose propagation by the medium constitutes, according to the electromagnetic theory, the transmission of light."

The fact that you include the long and complex mathematics seems in this context somewhat suspicious. Anyone without a serious background in Physics would be immediately put off, indeed unless you read very carefully the references to 'forces' throughout could have you believing that the EM fields are producing 'gravitational' forces since that is how the context of this thread was constructed. Your appear to be using this very interesting (and it seems underrated) paper by a Physicist who should be more celebrated as propaganda. You have cut and pasted the very clear context of his conclusion in a way that suggests an entirely new formulation of EM and gravitational theory but this is NOT what the paper states and Whittaker himself is at pains to say so.

If this is what you are doing then you are a dangerous enemy of reason and science. The truth is a fragile commodity and anyone with a higher understanding of science and the language used to explain bears an important responsibility to truthfully represent the science. It can be hard when the science is new and disputed but you are atempting to confuse people with theories that have long been established and which stand up to scrutiny. That is not to say useful Scientists and their interpretations dont sometimes get lost. Perhaps this method of formulating Force fields deserves reworked but all it has done here is create an enormous smoke screen if unpenetrable logic that most will turn off from.

Remember, my original point was that planets cannot suddenlt enter into orbits of different radii without a massive exchange of energy. To try to obscure that basic and undeniable logic with some nonsense about 'alternative matter' etc is bogus bullshit. What is your ultimate goal? Why bother with this? It is not helpful and your intellect and talents would be best used in a more truthful and honest manner.

So, certainly it seems Whittaker was ahead of his time in formulating a theory of gravitational waves and he points out that all these forces that transmit through the action of undulating fields have common properties. He is explicitly NOT saying that EM waves cause gravity waves, far less the curving of space time that gravity is expressed as doing in the general theory.

You still do not understand Whittaker's papers do you?

Whittaker PROVED that all EM/gravitational fields and waves can be decomposed into differential functions of two scalar potentials.

Then, each of these two base scalar potentials can be decomposed by Whittaker's earlier 1903 paper into a set of longitudinal EM waves.

That is, all EM/gravitational fields, potentials, and waves are comprised of longitudinal scalar waves and their internal dynamics.


First the longitudinal waves.

Then, these sets of bidirectional longitudinal waves form the potential.

Next, these longitudinal waves comprise the transverse em/gravitational waves.

A longitudinal wave propagates through a transverse wave.

Modern physics deals only with these transverse waves, not the longitudinal waves.

Transverse waves = speed of light = law of conservation of energy

Longitudinal scalar waves = superluminal speed = defiance of the law of conservation of energy


Can you now understand what is meant by the UNIFICATION of electromagnetism and gravity?

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1998110#msg1998110 (longitudinal boson strings within transverse subquark waves)

This is how modern science depicts the magnetic field:



The lines of force issue forth from the south pole, arc through space, and re-enter at the other end, the north pole.

What is MISSING are the lines of force issued by the north pole which re-enter at the south pole.

The experimental proof was given by Howard Johnson in his Spintronics treatise:

SPINTRONICS, secret world of magnets, the most thorough work on the double helix theory of the magnetic field (double helix of the telluric currents):

https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/the-secret-world-of-magnets-spintronics-2006-howard-johnson.pdf





The electrogravitational field has magnetic waves AND ALSO gravitational waves.

This is the missing part of the unified field theory.

E.T. Whittaker proved mathematically the existence of the electrogravitational potential, the bidirectional longitudinal waves.

They travel/propagate in double torsion fashion.

No physicist to date has observed this crucial fact: the magnetic wave and the gravitational wave form a single structure, the electrogravitational field. The gravitational potential consists of bosons which flow through dextrorotatory subquarks (electrons), and the electromagnetic potential is made up of bosons which propagate through laevorotatory subquarks (positrons).






There two flows of subquarks/magnetic monopoles: South-Center-North AND North-Center-South.

The modern study of the magnetic field/electromagnetism ONLY includes the South to North flow.

Yet, there are TWO continuous streams of different particles.


The fact that you include the long and complex mathematics seems in this context somewhat suspicious.

The level of advanced mathematics can get much more complex:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1774581#msg1774581 (bifurcations, chaos theory, Lyapunov exponents, Smale horseshoe theory)


Quote
You still do not understand Whittaker's papers do you?

Look, lets no go down a rabbit hole from 1903. I certainly do understand the premise of his paper although it is beyond me these days to confirm the complex mathematics. We will assume the mathematics is correct given peer review accepts it as so.

The main crux of this paper seems to be the interpretation of gravity as waves and particularly the speed that those waves can propagate.

You are certainly clear in YOUR interpretation of this work:

Quote
Transverse waves = speed of light = law of conservation of energy

Longitudinal scalar waves = superluminal speed = defiance of the law of conservation of energy

We simply must deal with the last point since it is classic FE theory to make statement totally contrary to normal mainstream scientific theory but without data to back it up.

First, lets get some context. The history of gravity has Laplace attempting to reconcile a finite gravitational speed with Newton's theory. Laplace concluded that the speed of gravitational interactions is at least 7×106 times the speed of light. However, this ignored Lorentz' invariance of static fields which subsequently led to Einstein's General theory of gravitation where the speed of gravitational waves is equal to the speed of light.

Now the General theory is one of those theories that keeps coming up Trumps. Predictions are made, observations made, data collected and guess what; the good ol' general theory keeps on working!

Which brings us to GW170817. This was one of the most significant scientific events of the last 100 years. It is highly relevant to out current debate. I am sure you are familiar with this. On the 17th of August gravitational waves from two neutron stars collapsing were detected at three different locations (2 LIGO / 1 VIRGO). What was unique here was that Astronomers were also able to make optical observations of the event.

Quote
The event also provides a limit on the difference between the speed of light and that of gravity. Assuming the first photons were emitted between zero and ten seconds after peak gravitational wave emission, the difference between the speeds of gravitational and electromagnetic waves, vGW − vEM, is constrained to between −3×10−15 and +7×10−16 times the speed of light, which improves on the previous estimate by about 14 orders of magnitude. In addition, it allowed investigation of the equivalence principle (through Shapiro delay measurement) and Lorentz invariance. The limits of possible violations of Lorentz invariance (values of 'gravity sector coefficients') are reduced by the new observations, by up to ten orders of magnitude. GW170817 also excluded some alternatives to general relativity, including variants of scalar–tensor theory, Hořava–Lifshitz gravity, Dark Matter Emulators and bimetric gravity.

Quote
The interest and effort was global: the paper describing the multi-messenger observations[1] is coauthored by almost 4,000 astronomers (about one-third of the worldwide astronomical community) from more than 900 institutions, using more than 70 observatories on all seven continents and in space

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW170817

So stacked up against your paper from 1903 is almost the entire astronomical community interpreting data from some of the most expensive and accurate measurement devices ever made by mankind stating quite categorically that gravity waves travel at the same speed as light waves, thus further proving Einsteins general theory of gravitation. There simply could not be a more comlete and comprehensive refutation of your liberal interpretation of Whitaker's paper.

Benefit of the doubt should at least be given to Whitaker though, perhaps he was not aware of Lorentz' invariance of static fields or was yet to formulate that into his calculations. In any event, if we were to imagine, like Whitaker, that gravity waves need not propagate at the speed of light indeed 'may be enormously greater' he would still run up against the same problems that those subscribing to the Newtonian theory of gravitation found. Namely its contradiction via the elliptical orbit of Mercury preceding at a significantly different rate from that predicted.

What is unforgivable however, is you, persisting in spamming this forum with papers from over 100 years ago but missing the HARD DATA that backs up more modern theories that continue to stand up to far worse scrutiny than that which you attempt to offer.

I'm sure you are a very smart person, but this tactic of trawling the history books for esoteric theories that seed doubt and baffle with endless mathematics is bogus. What is sad is that people like you should be rejoicing in events such as GW170817. Mankind is making progress, at least in the sciences if not in the broader human context. One cant help wonder that part of the reason is fear, mistrust, misinformation and yes, superstition.

I hope this new and modern data is valid in your eyes, otherwise we have nothing further to discuss.

"It's the economy data stupid"

Quote
Can you now understand what is meant by the UNIFICATION of electromagnetism and gravity?

What I understand is that we will be waiting a while longer.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 03:59:45 PM by lookatmooninUKthenAUS »

You really haven't done your homework on the speed of gravitational waves.

Official science has this to say on the subject:

Standard EM theory minimally coupled to general relativity predicts that GWs and light propagate with identical speeds.

The speed of gravity must be millions of times greater than the speed of light:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1943468#msg1943468 (four consecutive messages)

Dark Flow absolutely and immediately defies Einstein's GTR, not to mention Newtonian mechanics:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1936995#msg1936995

Superluminal speeds with Maxwell's original set of dynamical equations:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2058884#msg2058884

As for GW170817 here is the original paper:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1710/1710.05834.pdf

The authors assume a conventional redshift interpretation, which is catastrophically wrong.

QUASAR REDSHIFT: GALAXY NGC 7319

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1937556#msg1937556

KARLSSON EFFECT:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1937730#msg1937730 (two consecutive messages)

QUASAR REDSHIFT, PARTS IV - VIII:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1937977#msg1937977


Look, slow down, take a deep breath and lets have some common sense.

It is very, very, very simple. 4000 Astronomers across the globe are in agreement on this. What chance do you think that you have answers that they are not seeing.

Explain to me how it is possible to misinterpret a situation where gravitational waves and light waves are simultaneously detected coming from the same point in a distant galaxy.

Ignore the links and the logic that you think resides therein for a moment. Lets deal with this ....one.....single.....point.

Two Neutron stars collide
Huge disturbance of space time creates ripples of gravitational waves
simultaneously a burst of energy (including electromagnetic) is released
Over countless eons and distances these waves travel to Earth
Any difference in speed of propagation would be expressed as a difference in distance covered and thus time received
LIGO detects the gravitational waves and automatic telescopes around the world are directed to the region of the sky where the signal originated
Within a reasonable error margin it is deduced that the light and gravity waves arrived together

What part of this does not stand up?

Over countless eons and distances these waves travel to Earth
Any difference in speed of propagation would be expressed as a difference in distance covered and thus time received


Distances and velocities calculations are based on the degree of redshift.

If the redshift is not related at all to distance, and it is not, then the calculations performed for the GW170817 are useless.

Furthermore, the astronomers have not taken into consideration the existence of various layers of ether, each having a different density.

"At the meeting of the American Astronomical Society held in Texas in 2004, Professor Margaret Burbidge presented a paper that she had co-authored with Arp and several other leading astronomers, including her husband [subsequently published in the Astrophysical Journal]. It detailed the discovery of a high redshift quasar close to a low redshift galaxy. This time, though, the alignment was different in every significant way.

This time, no one could argue. You see, the high redshift [more distant] quasar lay in front of the [less distant redshift] galaxy NGC 7319! There was no longer occasion to debate the veracity of [Arp’s] matter bridge [connecting galaxies with quasars]. The quasar was in the foreground [the galaxy in the background]. In that impressive gathering of astronomy’s who’s who, you could have heard a pin drop. It was a deafening silence.

Light is not a constant at all.

Its speed varies according to the density of ether it is passing through.

A ripple in the sea of ether is a transverse wave, it cannot exceed the speed of light.

A gravitational wave, by contrast, is a longitudinal wave at superluminal speeds.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 08:11:21 PM by sandokhan »

Quote
Distances and velocities calculations are based on the degree of redshift.

No, the redshift depends on the recession velocity of the source which in turn is dependent on the distance between source and observer:

Z = V/C = lambdaobs - lambdarest/lambdarest
[/sub]

You seem to be getting confused.

Quote
A ripple in the sea of ether is a transverse wave, it cannot exceed the speed of light.

A gravitational wave, by contrast, is a longitudinal wave at superluminal speeds.

So you appear to be suggesting that these waves travel at different speeds (consistent with all your links to Whittaker etc.) but have not refuted the GW170817 observation that the two wave types were observed arriving in synchronicity. Do you agree this was observed? No 'calculations' needed, it was directly observed.

So are you saying that the Ether somehow compensated? If so, you do understand how crazy that sounds. How would they happen to arrive on Earth at the same time after travelling 130 million light years. Coincidence, no....you can't be saying that.

I actually cannot work out what you are trying to say with the red shift / ether comments!

Come on.....this is a lost cause. Its time you modified your ideas not time the world of Physics altered its laws.

As they say in 'Dragons den'.........'Im afraid,....I'm out!'
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 09:40:38 PM by lookatmooninUKthenAUS »

You have not read the paper published by LIGO:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1710/1710.05834.pdf

The word "redshift" is mentioned 49 times: on every page, the authors declare that their calculations are based ENTIRELY on the redshift hypothesis.

"Using the measured gamma-ray energy spectrum and the
distance to the host galaxy identified by the associated optical
transient, we compare the energetics of GRB 170817A to those
of other SGRBs at known redshifts.

Compared to the distribution of GBM detected GRBs with
measured redshift shown in Figure 4, GRB 170817A is 2 orders
of magnitude closer and 2 to 6 orders of magnitude less energetic
than other SGRBs.

We explore here whether
the gap in luminosity compared to more luminous SGRBs is a
result of the instrumental sensitivity for the detection of either
the prompt or the afterglow emission of SGRBs, or whether our
problem lies in the association of SGRBs to their host galaxies
and thus redshift.

The maximum distance we
could have detected this burst is about 80 Mpc—closer than any
other SGRB with a firmly determined redshift.

For SGRBs, the
redshift is instead usually determined from the host galaxy.

A welllocalized
(∼few arcseconds) SGRB afterglow is associated
with a galaxy within a small angular distance on the sky, using
probabilistic arguments about chance alignment, and then the
redshift of the host galaxy is measured."

This is the main reason for the ASSUMPTION made by the authors:

The gravitational and EM waves are expected to travel at the same speed.

And the waves DID NOT arrive at the same time: there was a several second delay.

Moreover, there was a TIME DELAY at the source:

"As a conservative bound relative to the few second delays discussed
in Section 2.1, we assume the SGRB signal was emitted 10 s
after the GW signal."


The equation used by the authors:

Δv/vem = vemΔt/D, where D is the assumed travel distance.

Here is the figure for D used by the authors:

This relation is less constraining for small distances, hence we conservatively use here D = 26 Mpc.

The authors simply made up the data.


So you appear to be suggesting that these waves travel at different speeds (consistent with all your links to Whittaker etc.) but have not refuted the GW170817 observation that the two wave types were observed arriving in synchronicity.

No synchronicity at all.

A full delay of 10 seconds at the source.

A full 2 seconds delay at the point of observation.

Given the FE distances, some 50 km to those stars, a single second makes all the difference in the world.


Ether redshift theory:


https://web.archive.org/web/20060607031454/http://itis.volta.alessandria.it/episteme/ep3-17.htm

"The late Walther Nernst was one of the the most eminent and interesting scientists with whom I came into contact. His scientific instinct was truly amazing - apart from a masterly acquaintance with a vast amount of facts that he could always readily bring to mind, he also possessed a rare command of methods and experimental findings which he excelled in ... "

A. Einstein describing the work published by W. Nernst

What Walther Nernst did was to discover a huge, humongous, catastrophic error in Hubble's calculations on the interpretation of the red shift.



"if redshifts are not primarily due to velocity shift … the velocity-distance relation is linear, the distribution of the nebula is uniform, there is no evidence of expansion, no trace of curvature, no restriction of the time scale … and we find ourselves in the presence of one of the principle of nature that is still unknown to us today … whereas, if redshifts are velocity shifts which measure the rate of expansion, the expanding models are definitely inconsistent with the observations that have been made … expanding models are a forced interpretation of the observational results"

E. Hubble


And as far as expansion is concerned, Hubble concluded with the following statement:

" … the results do not establish the expansion as the only possible interpretation of redshifts. Other data are available which, at the moment, seem to point in another direction."

" … redshifts are evidence either of an expanding universe or of some hitherto unknown principle of nature …

E. Hubble

That unknown principle of nature is the ETHER.

Nernst's Interpretation

Hubble made two mistakes, as has been seen.

The first one lay in choosing to research an interpretation of redshift that was exclusively within the field of Einsteinian relativity.

The second lay in the hypothesis that his "law" was "clearly linear", thus ignoring a fact that is well-known to any physicist, even an amateur one, namely that for small z values (redshift) a straight line constitutes a good "first approximation" of a logarithmic curve.

These mistakes did not happen by chance.

The first was almost certainly due to the influence of Tolman, the relativistic theorist whose aid was sought by Hubble to "interpret" redshifts. Despite the results of the work he did in 1936, Hubble was never able to completely shake off Tolman's influence.

His second mistake was caused in the same way by the influence of Einsteinian relativity. A logarithmic law may be deduced from a normal "classical" effect of exponential decay of energy in photons; this, however, really does postulate the existence of the "intergalactic and interstellar mean" that is "in principle" denied by Relativity.


The Picture that Won’t Go Away

"Only in the rarest instances has a single picture altered the direction of a scientific discipline. But in the case of the galaxy NGC 7319 and the "misplaced" quasar in front of it, the message is inescapable: its presence threatened to shatter one of the most cherished themes of mainstream astronomy, the Big Bang.

The rationale for the Big Bang rests substantially on an interpretation of a well-known phenomenon called “redshift”. The term refers to the shift of light from distant galaxies toward red on the light spectrum.

Many years ago, astronomers decided that redshifted objects must be moving away from the observer, stretching out their lightwaves. This “Doppler interpretation” of redshift enabled astronomers, based on the degree of redshift, to calculate both the distances and velocities of the objects. From these calculations, certain conclusions were inescapable. If all redshifted objects are moving farther away, the universe must be expanding. If the universe is expanding, the expansion must have had a starting point—an unimaginable explosion producing a universe of galaxies receding in every direction from the observer.

Then came the Hubble photograph, taken on October 3, 2003. The picture showed a galaxy (NGC 7319) known for its dense clouds that obstruct all objects behind its core. In front of the galaxy's core is a strongly redshifted quasar. In fact, under the prevailing assumptions, the redshift of the quasar would put it more than 90 times farther away from us than the big galaxy behind it."



A higher magnification image of the quasar shows a "jet" of matter extending out from the center of NGC 7319 toward the quasar:




http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/archive/newsrel/science/mcquasar.asp


The Discovery of a High Redshift X-Ray Emitting QSO Very Close to the Nucleus of NGC 7319:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0409215.pdf


Published in the Astrophysical Journal

Geoffrey Burbidge, a professor of physics and astronomer at the University of California at San Diego’s Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences

"The quasar was found embedded in the galaxy NGC 7319 only 8 arc sec from its centre. According to the Hubble law the galaxy NGC 7319, with a redshift of 0.022, is at a distance of about 360 million light-years. Therefore these objects could not be physically connected to each other if this was true."


« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 05:32:28 AM by sandokhan »