[Ghost of V]

Oh ok I see

[beardo]

That's not really character-building, though, at least not in the sense that increasing your attributes through leveling is.  Also, I'm amused at how some people here are totally okay with the fact that Morrowind's combat is just a representation of what's "really" happening and we shouldn't interpret it too literally, but quest markers are still terrible because they're undisguised game mechanics.

I think you've misunderstood. That's not why quest markers are terrible.

Care to explain what does make them terrible, then?

They make the game not fun.

Why do they make the game not fun? Please explain in great detail, or we will not understand.

[Particle Person]

That's not really character-building, though, at least not in the sense that increasing your attributes through leveling is.  Also, I'm amused at how some people here are totally okay with the fact that Morrowind's combat is just a representation of what's "really" happening and we shouldn't interpret it too literally, but quest markers are still terrible because they're undisguised game mechanics.

A quest marker isn't a representation of something that's supposed to be actually happening.

[Saddam Hussein]

That's not really character-building, though, at least not in the sense that increasing your attributes through leveling is.  Also, I'm amused at how some people here are totally okay with the fact that Morrowind's combat is just a representation of what's "really" happening and we shouldn't interpret it too literally, but quest markers are still terrible because they're undisguised game mechanics.

A quest marker isn't a representation of something that's supposed to be actually happening.

I disagree.  They're representative of you occasionally checking your map and compass and making sure you're headed in the right direction.

[Particle Person]

That's not really character-building, though, at least not in the sense that increasing your attributes through leveling is.  Also, I'm amused at how some people here are totally okay with the fact that Morrowind's combat is just a representation of what's "really" happening and we shouldn't interpret it too literally, but quest markers are still terrible because they're undisguised game mechanics.

A quest marker isn't a representation of something that's supposed to be actually happening.

I disagree.  They're representative of you occasionally checking your map and compass and making sure you're headed in the right direction.

Hmm yes, I can see it now. An explorer descends into a dark Dwemer ruin to find a mysterious puzzle box. Fortunately he remembered to bring his map and compass, so he knows which shelf it's on.

I'm not so much concerned about whether or not we can realistically expect rats to be nimbly dodging blows as I am about the effect that this has on the gameplay, and I have to say that this really sucks the fun out of it all, as well as clunkily restraining your ability to build your character how you want.  It's not even a matter of gaming the system; there are valid reasons why you might want to develop your miscellaneous skills.  Maybe you want to boost your attributes, for example.  Say you're a mage-type character, and you want to boost your strength so you can carry more.  The best way to do that is to practice your strength-governed skills before your next level-up...but you can't do that, because those are all miscellaneous skills and you're just going to get killed while you flail away in vain at whatever cliff racer you're fighting.  Now all you can do is try and find an appropriate trainer somewhere and hope you can afford their services.  Isn't that a problem?  I'm not saying you should be awesome at everything to begin with, but surely there's a middle ground between that and how much you suck in Morrowind.

No, I don't see it as a problem that it is more difficult for a mage to increase their strength than it is for a warrior.

[Saddam Hussein]

Hmm yes, I can see it now. An explorer descends into a dark Dwemer ruin to find a mysterious puzzle box. Fortunately he remembered to bring his map and compass, so he knows which shelf it's on.

Or maybe he's particularly sharp-eyed, and he notices the unmistakable gleam of the puzzle box from across the room.

No, I don't see it as a problem that it is more difficult for a mage to increase their strength than it is for a warrior.

Why?  Do mages' muscles just not develop properly or something?  And it's not just more difficult, it's almost impossible without a trainer.

[Particle Person]

Hmm yes, I can see it now. An explorer descends into a dark Dwemer ruin to find a mysterious puzzle box. Fortunately he remembered to bring his map and compass, so he knows which shelf it's on.

Or maybe he's particularly sharp-eyed, and he notices the unmistakable gleam of the puzzle box from across the room.

Or from across the entire dungeon, through several walls.

No, I don't see it as a problem that it is more difficult for a mage to increase their strength than it is for a warrior.

Why?  Do mages' muscles just not develop properly or something?  And it's not just more difficult, it's almost impossible without a trainer.

Yes, somebody who has devoted a significant amount of their life to studying magic or thievery is going to have a slower start than a warrior would if they suddenly decide to start bulking up.

[Rama Set]

Big fan of the show. First time poster. What elder scrolls game should I start with?

[xasop]

Big fan of the show. First time poster. What elder scrolls game should I start with?

Morrowind. (Disclaimer: It's the only one I've played.)

[Rushy]

Big fan of the show. First time poster. What elder scrolls game should I start with?

TESO, since PP2 referred to it as "babby's first elder scroll"

[Saddam Hussein]

Or from across the entire dungeon, through several walls.

Okay, having quest markers point you to a specific spot inside a dungeon is stupid.  But most of the time when people talk about having quest markers, it's in comparison to following directions in your journal, indicating that they're thinking of navigation of the overworld.  My ideal system would be having the quest markers of Oblivion in the overworld (not Skyrim's, where you can literally see arrows floating over people's heads, that was retarded) and the dungeons of Morrowind.

Yes, somebody who has devoted a significant amount of their life to studying magic or thievery is going to have a slower start than a warrior would if they suddenly decide to start bulking up.

How do you know who has or hasn't devoted a significant amount of their life to studying any one thing in particular?  I could create a Nord mage who begins the game with higher strength and higher combat skills than an Altmer warrior, yet that Nord will be essentially unable to increase his strength, while the Altmer finds it easy.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

Hmm yes, I can see it now. An explorer descends into a dark Dwemer ruin to find a mysterious puzzle box. Fortunately he remembered to bring his map and compass, so he knows which shelf it's on.

Maybe there should just be an option to turn them off? Personally, I prefer my games not to be simulations of trying to find your keys in a messy apartment after a heavy night so I quite like them. It might not be realistic to instantly know where to look for a magical book in an abandoned fortress but I'd rather that than have to search every nook and cranny in every virtually-identical-looking room.

I'm reminded of that quest in Oblivion (or was it Skyrim?) to find crystal tears in a frozen grove. trying to spot the very slight change in colour between the near-transparent tears and the ice behind them or the very slight glint of light on them. if every fetch quest was like that I think I'd ragequit.

[Ghost of V]

Big fan of the show. First time poster. What elder scrolls game should I start with?

Show?

Don't start with Morrowind unless you want to be turned off by Elder Scrolls completely. I'd say start with Oblivion. It's much easier than Morrowind, much more user friendly, and you can kill rats with any kind of weapon at the start of the game.

[Particle Person]

Yes, somebody who has devoted a significant amount of their life to studying magic or thievery is going to have a slower start than a warrior would if they suddenly decide to start bulking up.

How do you know who has or hasn't devoted a significant amount of their life to studying any one thing in particular?

I know this because I understand how the class system works. You've played too much Skyrim and it rotted your brain. A new character created with a class based creation system is not a blank slate. When you're choosing your major and minor skills, you're choosing your character's history. Those skills get a boost because they're the skills that your character has been training up until that point.

I could create a Nord mage who begins the game with higher strength and higher combat skills than an Altmer warrior, yet that Nord will be essentially unable to increase his strength, while the Altmer finds it easy.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

No, you could not create a mage that begins with higher combat skills than a warrior.

[Saddam Hussein]

I know this because I understand how the class system works. You've played too much Skyrim and it rotted your brain. A new character created with a class based creation system is not a blank slate. When you're choosing your major and minor skills, you're choosing your character's history. Those skills get a boost because they're the skills that your character has been training up until that point.

I don't recall the game saying anything like that.

No, you could not create a mage that begins with higher combat skills with a warrior.

Oops, confused it with something else.  Scratch that.

[Particle Person]

I know this because I understand how the class system works. You've played too much Skyrim and it rotted your brain. A new character created with a class based creation system is not a blank slate. When you're choosing your major and minor skills, you're choosing your character's history. Those skills get a boost because they're the skills that your character has been training up until that point.

I don't recall the game saying anything like that.

I'm not sure why the game would need to "say" this, since it's so obvious. Is this another symptom of Skyrim brain melt?

[Saddam Hussein]

I don't know why you keep bringing up Skyrim like it's some kind of insult.  At least in that game you don't have to lock yourself into an immutable plan right at the beginning.  The classless system allows for more organic and believable character growth.  Tamriel is not a vocational society where everybody is born into their skillset and profession.  Just like on our own flat earth, people develop all sorts of odd combinations of skills over time (I definitely wish they would stop lopping off skills with each new game).  For example, one of my characters is an Imperial who was a hunter during his early levels.  After a profound religious experience, he dedicated his life to the service of Talos and began training as a knight.  That wasn't something I had planned during character creation, so if I wanted to do the same thing in one of the previous games I would have to use the console.

[beardo]

I also prefer character development over character creation.

[Particle Person]

I don't know why you keep bringing up Skyrim like it's some kind of insult.  At least in that game you don't have to lock yourself into an immutable plan right at the beginning.  The classless system allows for more organic and believable character growth.  Tamriel is not a vocational society where everybody is born into their skillset and profession.  Just like on our own flat earth, people develop all sorts of odd combinations of skills over time (I definitely wish they would stop lopping off skills with each new game).  For example, one of my characters is an Imperial who was a hunter during his early levels.  After a profound religious experience, he dedicated his life to the service of Talos and began training as a knight.  That wasn't something I had planned during character creation, so if I wanted to do the same thing in one of the previous games I would have to use the console.

I shan't fall for this again.

[Saddam Hussein]

Tee hee.  Also, I hope you're going to resume TESO on the 17th.  The four of us could team up for some dungeon delving.  I want to get my hands on that Discourse Amaranthine.