[Rushy]

Obviously this is all assuming you chose to do the main quest.  If you didn't, then the whole discussion is moot.

Then this:

Does that matter?  It still comes down to the same thing - you're the hero because the Emperor says you are.

Is patently false. You're the hero because you chose to help Cyrodil, what the emperor says about you is ultimately irrelevant.

[Saddam Hussein]

Don't conflate the why and how.  Why obviously comes down to player choice, but how is definitely due to the Emperor's vote of confidence.  Neither Baurus nor Jauffre would have entrusted you with any of the duties you're given without his approval.

[Rushy]

Don't conflate the why and how.  Why obviously comes down to player choice, but how is definitely due to the Emperor's vote of confidence.  Neither Baurus nor Jauffre would have entrusted you with any of the duties you're given without his approval.

What? That doesn't even make any sense. Do you know what "why" or "how" means?

[Saddam Hussein]

I don't see what was so difficult to understand about that, but I'll rephrase.  Obviously you can choose to ignore the main quest and just do your own thing in any given playthrough.  That goes without saying; it's a TES game.  But that doesn't mean that in storytelling terms, the only thing that's relevant is the player character's willingness to help.  If the Emperor hadn't recognized you from his dream, had those meaningful discussions with you, and personally entrusted you with the Amulet, your involvement with the main story would almost certainly have ended right there in the intro dungeon.  Baurus would have taken the Amulet, and he'd have gone to see Jauffre.  There's no way he'd let some random prisoner that he has zero reason to trust help out, even if the prisoner was eager to help.  That's what I mean about the Emperor's blessing being the how of the player character becoming the hero.

[Rushy]

I don't see what was so difficult to understand about that, but I'll rephrase.  Obviously you can choose to ignore the main quest and just do your own thing in any given playthrough.  That goes without saying; it's a TES game.  But that doesn't mean that in storytelling terms, the only thing that's relevant is the player character's willingness to help.  If the Emperor hadn't recognized you from his dream, had those meaningful discussions with you, and personally entrusted you with the Amulet, your involvement with the main story would almost certainly have ended right there in the intro dungeon.  Baurus would have taken the Amulet, and he'd have gone to see Jauffre.  There's no way he'd let some random prisoner that he has zero reason to trust help out, even if the prisoner was eager to help.  That's what I mean about the Emperor's blessing being the how of the player character becoming the hero.

We're never given the option of not meeting the emperor so you can't claim what would or wouldn't happen had the player never met the emperor. It's just assumptions and nonsense.

[Saddam Hussein]

I'm not talking about what would happen if you didn't meet the Emperor.  It's what would happen if the Emperor didn't think you were special at all, if you were just some random prisoner who he and his guards happened to meet along the way.  I'll grant that I am making assumptions, but I think they're fairly reasonable ones.

[Ghost of V]

I'm not talking about what would happen if you didn't meet the Emperor.  It's what would happen if the Emperor didn't think you were special at all, if you were just some random prisoner who he and his guards happened to meet along the way.  I'll grant that I am making assumptions, but I think they're fairly reasonable ones.

You're forgetting that the Emperor and his Blades had to escape through your cell. Either way, you were getting out.

[beardo]

Looks like this is your lucky day. Just stay out of our way.

[Saddam Hussein]

Sure, you'd escape, but they wouldn't bother including you in their plans.  You'd just be some guy who caught a lucky break.  Like beerdo said.

Bear in mind, though, that my interpretations here are of the story as is.  I'm not saying that the game couldn't have been written in any way to introduce the player character in a more graceful fashion than outright telling you at the start "btw you're the Chosen One!"  That trope been done to death, and I'd like to see Bethesda employ some more original storytelling in the future.  It just so happens that in this game, they embraced the idea that you're special from the very beginning, and for better or worse, that's what starts you off on the main quest.

[Ghost of V]

"btw you're the Chosen One!"

Morrowind and Skyrim do the same exact thing. I'd argue that this isn't a fault with Oblivion because of that. Obviously the writers are just terrible at writing the beginning of their games.

Anyways, how else are you going to start things off? This is a fantasy game with gods, demons, etc. Being a 'chosen one' really isn't that far-fetched given the setting. How would you propose introducing the hero character in an Elder Scrolls game?

[Blanko]

Morrowind and Oblivion both use "chosen one" as a subversion to motivate player actions and get the plot going. Saddam seems to not realize this because he criticizes both games for the same thing, but the reason supporting characters don't seem all too concerned about your prophecized importance is because your status as a chosen one isn't important unless you make a name for yourself through your actions. It resonates with the games' open world structure; the pacing of the story and the growth of the player character is dictated by the player's decision to embark on the story. You become the hero by doing heroic actions, and in doing so you justify your beginning as a chosen one.

Of course, Skyrim doesn't use that, because it's shit. You have to be special and shout at things instead.

[Saddam Hussein]

"btw you're the Chosen One!"

Morrowind and Skyrim do the same exact thing. I'd argue that this isn't a fault with Oblivion because of that. Obviously the writers are just terrible at writing the beginning of their games.

Anyways, how else are you going to start things off? This is a fantasy game with gods, demons, etc. Being a 'chosen one' really isn't that far-fetched given the setting. How would you propose introducing the hero character in an Elder Scrolls game?

With Morrowind and Skyrim, your role as the chosen one is far more critical to the plot.  You have a distinctive identity, a distinctive role in the story, and even a cool name.  But in Oblivion, it feels tacked-on and unnecessary.  A lot of that might have to do with the fact that in the end, Oblivion isn't really your story at all.  Martin is the true hero; you're simply a supporting protagonist.  That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's a bit silly to dress up a supporting role in talk of prophecy and predestined heroes and all that.

There are certainly other ways that the player character could be introduced to the story.  In Oblivion, for example, the intro dungeon could have you actively helping the Emperor and his retinue in such a way that you prove your worth by the time you've made it through.  Like, maybe as they went ahead, some falling rocks separated them from you and trapped them in an alcove, and then it's up to you to save them.  That kind of thing.  In this way, when the Emperor entrusts the Amulet to you at the end of the dungeon, it feels like an act of genuine, earned trust rather than a leap of faith based on a face seen in a dream.

[Blanko]

You're never a chosen one in Morrowind outside of what you prove yourself to be with your actions. You become central to the plot because you meet the conditions for being the chosen one, not necessarily because you are the chosen one.

[Saddam Hussein]

You're never a chosen one in Morrowind outside of what you prove yourself to be with your actions. You become central to the plot because you meet the conditions for being the chosen one, not necessarily because you are the chosen one.

That's actually why I specified it as "your role as the chosen one."  It may not be the 100% confirmed truth that the player is the Nerevarine, but it's still the role that you fulfill throughout the course of the story.  And yes, I do agree that Morrowind uses the trope far more cleverly than Skyrim, which of course plays it straight.

[Ghost of V]

"btw you're the Chosen One!"

Morrowind and Skyrim do the same exact thing. I'd argue that this isn't a fault with Oblivion because of that. Obviously the writers are just terrible at writing the beginning of their games.

Anyways, how else are you going to start things off? This is a fantasy game with gods, demons, etc. Being a 'chosen one' really isn't that far-fetched given the setting. How would you propose introducing the hero character in an Elder Scrolls game?

With Morrowind and Skyrim, your role as the chosen one is far more critical to the plot.  You have a distinctive identity, a distinctive role in the story, and even a cool name.  But in Oblivion, it feels tacked-on and unnecessary.  A lot of that might have to do with the  fact that in the end, Oblivion isn't really your story at all.  Martin is the true hero; you're simply a supporting protagonist.  That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's a bit silly to dress up a supporting role in talk of prophecy and predestined heroes and all that.

There are certainly other ways that the player character could be introduced to the story.  In Oblivion, for example, the intro dungeon could have you actively helping the Emperor and his retinue in such a way that you prove your worth by the time you've made it through.  Like, maybe as they went ahead, some falling rocks separated them from you and trapped them in an alcove, and then it's up to you to save them.  That kind of thing.  In this way, when the Emperor entrusts the Amulet to you at the end of the dungeon, it feels like an act of genuine, earned trust rather than a leap of faith based on a face seen in a dream.

This forces the player to help. Elder Scrolls is about choices and playing how you want. I don't think it would be a good idea to make the character save everyone in the first few minutes of the game, or at least it should give you the choice... "Save them? Leave them there and do your own thing?". Forcing you to be the good guy is kind of against the ES ethos.

[beardo]

You're never a chosen one in Morrowind outside of what you prove yourself to be with your actions. You become central to the plot because you meet the conditions for being the chosen one, not necessarily because you are the chosen one.

That's actually why I specified it as "your role as the chosen one."  It may not be the 100% confirmed truth that the player is the Nerevarine, but it's still the role that you fulfill throughout the course of the story.  And yes, I do agree that Morrowind uses the trope far more cleverly than Skyrim, which of course plays it straight.

2-3 quests into the story..
"You're... Dragonborn! Try to shout! OMG You really are Dragonborn then!"

[Saddam Hussein]

"btw you're the Chosen One!"

Morrowind and Skyrim do the same exact thing. I'd argue that this isn't a fault with Oblivion because of that. Obviously the writers are just terrible at writing the beginning of their games.

Anyways, how else are you going to start things off? This is a fantasy game with gods, demons, etc. Being a 'chosen one' really isn't that far-fetched given the setting. How would you propose introducing the hero character in an Elder Scrolls game?

With Morrowind and Skyrim, your role as the chosen one is far more critical to the plot.  You have a distinctive identity, a distinctive role in the story, and even a cool name.  But in Oblivion, it feels tacked-on and unnecessary.  A lot of that might have to do with the  fact that in the end, Oblivion isn't really your story at all.  Martin is the true hero; you're simply a supporting protagonist.  That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's a bit silly to dress up a supporting role in talk of prophecy and predestined heroes and all that.

There are certainly other ways that the player character could be introduced to the story.  In Oblivion, for example, the intro dungeon could have you actively helping the Emperor and his retinue in such a way that you prove your worth by the time you've made it through.  Like, maybe as they went ahead, some falling rocks separated them from you and trapped them in an alcove, and then it's up to you to save them.  That kind of thing.  In this way, when the Emperor entrusts the Amulet to you at the end of the dungeon, it feels like an act of genuine, earned trust rather than a leap of faith based on a face seen in a dream.

This forces the player to help. Elder Scrolls is about choices and playing how you want. I don't think it would be a good idea to make the character save everyone in the first few minutes of the game, or at least it should give you the choice... "Save them? Leave them there and do your own thing?". Forcing you to be the good guy is kind of against the ES ethos.

You aren't given any choice beyond nodding enthusiastically and saying "Yes, sir!" to the Emperor in the introduction as it is.  The sad fact is that it's pretty difficult to reconcile an evil player character with the main quest in any Bethesda game.

[Ghost of V]

You aren't given any choice beyond nodding enthusiastically and saying "Yes, sir!" to the Emperor in the introduction as it is.  The sad fact is that it's pretty difficult to reconcile an evil player character with the main quest in any Bethesda game.

You're given many dialogue options during that portion of the game. Some of which imply that the character is tired of Uriel's BS or thinks that he's a phony seer.

After your exchange, Uriel gives a speech that pretty much says he has chosen you to save all of Cyrodiil from the jaws of Oblivion, but there are no dialogue options after that. The player is not forced to agree with Uriel during the course of the intro. At this point the player character could escape from the sewer and begin playing the game how s/he sees fit. There's no forcing you into anything. The rest of the game is completed at the player's discretion. The only thing the game is forcing you to do is play the game.

Regardless of what the story or npcs in the game say you are, you're not that unless you want to be. That's the glory of ES. Say you save Cyrodiil from the jaws of Oblivion. Your character is given many dialogue options throughout that adventure to roleplay whatever role you want. Even if you save Cyrodiil that doesn't mean you're the hero. You might be the hero to various NPCs in the game but they do not know the player's true intention and are therefore irrelevant. If you're playing a villain you can justify your actions by saying that your character wanted to save Cyrodiil because without Cyrodiil there would be no way to steal/murder/etc.

Like Rushy said earlier, what the characters in the game think of you is irrelevant. All that matters is the player's intention. If you felt that the game was forcing you to play the hero then maybe it's just because you're the one with the hero complex?

[Saddam Hussein]

You're given many dialogue options during that portion of the game. Some of which imply that the character is tired of Uriel's BS or thinks that he's a phony seer.

No, they really don't.  You can say "I go my own way," right at the start, and later on you can tell the Emperor that you're not particularly religious.  That's about all the defiance you're allowed.

After your exchange, Uriel gives a speech that pretty much says he has chosen you to save all of Cyrodiil from the jaws of Oblivion, but there are no dialogue options after that. The player is not forced to agree with Uriel during the course of the intro.

Accepting the Amulet from him seems to imply agreement, and I like I said above, your dialogue prior to that moment indicates that you're being very cooperative.

At this point the player character could escape from the sewer and begin playing the game how s/he sees fit. There's no forcing you into anything. The rest of the game is completed at the player's discretion. The only thing the game is forcing you to do is play the game.

...

If you felt that the game was forcing you to play the hero then maybe it's just because you're the one with the hero complex?

I am aware of all this, and don't recall saying that you're forced to do anything in the game, at least outside of the tutorial.

Regardless of what the story or npcs in the game say you are, you're not that unless you want to be. That's the glory of ES. Say you save Cyrodiil from the jaws of Oblivion. Your character is given many dialogue options throughout that adventure to roleplay whatever role you want. Even if you save Cyrodiil that doesn't mean you're the hero. You might be the hero to various NPCs in the game but they do not know the player's true intention and are therefore irrelevant. If you're playing a villain you can justify your actions by saying that your character wanted to save Cyrodiil because without Cyrodiil there would be no way to steal/murder/etc.

Like Rushy said earlier, what the characters in the game think of you is irrelevant. All that matters is the player's intention.

This isn't wrong, per se, but the problem is that you're putting the burden of roleplay almost entirely on the player's shoulders.  The player's mindset is important, of course, but at the same time, Bethesda should have made a better effort to have their main quest be more accessible to roleplayers outside of the 100% lawful good persuasion.  The game that handled that the best was, I have to admit, Morrowind.  It's another reason why traditional high fantasy isn't a good fit for TES.

[Vongeo]

Beinhg evil in fallout makes sense mostly