[Saddam Hussein]

TIL Blanko plays WoW.

When did I say that?

You're not supposed to take intentional fallacies seriously.  You should have replied with something like "Yes, I am deeply engrossed in the ongoing epic saga of Azeroth.  Haters gonna hate."

TIL Blanko plays WoW.  Also, you should play Dragonborn.  It's literally Morrowind.  Which is funny, because in Morrowind, Solstheim was literally Skyrim.  The island seems to transform itself based on which race is largely occupying it.

...Or the landscape changed because a volcano erupted next door to it.

I was about to say that Solstheim isn't much closer to Red Mountain than Skyrim is, and so it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for it to be heavily altered by the eruption when Skyrim hasn't been affected at all, but Dragonborn may have retconned the distance between them somewhat:



Uh huh.  Seems legit, Bethesda.

This is amazing.  There's actually a trophy called the "Discourse Amaranthine" that appears as a reward in one quest, and it has an odd effect when you activate it:



For those of you who don't get the reference, which I'm sure is virtually all of you, the Amaranth is yet another of Kirkbride's kooky notions.  Basically, the idea behind it is that the Aurbis is all the product of some divine being having a very realistic and very long dream.  This ties directly into CHIM - one who achieves CHIM realizes, in essence, that they are part of a dream, and so are able to exert control over the dream, rather like lucid dreaming.  There's a bit more to it than that, but it's very complicated, and I don't fully understand it all.  Frankly, I don't think anyone fully understands it all, not even Kirkbride himself.

I know that this is the nitpickiest of nitpicks to make, but something that's always annoyed me about the quest "The Path of Dawn" is the way that not only does Baurus take it for granted that he's going to be the one who meets up with Raven Camoran, but he actually goes so far as to argue with you if you tell him that you'll do it instead.  It's ridiculous.  I'm the hero.  Baurus is not.  It's a pretty basic trope that the hero is the one who goes undercover in situations like this.  It's bad enough that Martin hijacks the story later on in the game and manages to get all the credit despite doing very little; I don't need this clown muscling in on my hero territory as well.  The fact that the Mythic Dawn have already been targeting him and of course are going to know who he is makes his decision to be the one who meets them all the more stupid.

That aside, Oblivion's quests are still great.

[Blanko]

Saddam doesn't like his generic tropes subverted ever

[Rushy]

I know that this is the nitpickiest of nitpicks to make, but something that's always annoyed me about the quest "The Path of Dawn" is the way that not only does Baurus take it for granted that he's going to be the one who meets up with Raven Camoran, but he actually goes so far as to argue with you if you tell him that you'll do it instead.  It's ridiculous.  I'm the hero.  Baurus is not. 

Then I'm going to assume you just love the ending of Fallout 3 where everyone refuses to go into the chamber for you (except for Lyons)? I feel like I remember you voicing an opinion of not liking that ending.

[Ghost of V]

I know that this is the nitpickiest of nitpicks to make, but something that's always annoyed me about the quest "The Path of Dawn" is the way that not only does Baurus take it for granted that he's going to be the one who meets up with Raven Camoran, but he actually goes so far as to argue with you if you tell him that you'll do it instead.  It's ridiculous.  I'm the hero.  Baurus is not. 

Then I'm going to assume you just love the ending of Fallout 3 where everyone refuses to go into the chamber for you (except for Lyons)? I feel like I remember you voicing an opinion of not liking that ending.

Are we going to talk about this again? Really?

[Rushy]

Are we going to talk about this again? Really?

It's relevant when Saddam specifically mentions not liking it when people don't treat you like you're the hero and "only you can do this." I'm fairly sure he mentioned not liking it when the people in Fallout 3 did just that.

[Saddam Hussein]

Saddam doesn't like his generic tropes subverted ever

It depends on the trope and how they go about subverting it.  If they were trying to subvert the trope in this case, I don't think they did a very good job.

Then I'm going to assume you just love the ending of Fallout 3 where everyone refuses to go into the chamber for you (except for Lyons)? I feel like I remember you voicing an opinion of not liking that ending.

It's relevant when Saddam specifically mentions not liking it when people don't treat you like you're the hero and "only you can do this." I'm fairly sure he mentioned not liking it when the people in Fallout 3 did just that.

There are a lot of problems with F3's ending, but I'd argue that the worst of all is the one that it shares with the rest of the story - tonally and thematically, it just doesn't feel right for a Fallout game.  The fact that you couldn't send Fawkes, Charon, or Sergeant RL-3 into the irradiated chamber despite it making more logical sense is annoying, sure, but all in all, it's little more than a crappy end to a crappy story.  Of course, if we set the ending aside and look at the overall game, then yeah, it's way, way too obsessed with the player character.  Balance is key.  I want the game to recognize me as the hero to the degree that I can be doing a fun quest without having some minor character who's done very little so far to suddenly pull me aside and say, "I'll take it from here, bro."  I don't want the game to recognize me as the hero to the degree that Three Dog devotes almost all of his airtime to discussing (and judging) me, or Ron Perlman only talking about me in his closing narration and not at all about the future of the setting and characters whose lives I affected.

<Blanko> Saddam: I'm finding your critique of Oblivion confusing
<Blanko> Why would the other characters in-universe think you're the hero
<Blanko> I mean it's the same shit with Morrowind
<Blanko> It's not good enough for you that you prove your worth as the hero with your actions over the course of the game
<Blanko> You have to be the recognized messiah character from the get-go
<pizaaaplanet> Saddam wants to play the game about being Jesus
<Crudblud> Saddam must love those old LJN Bible games for the NES
<Crudblud> So much prophecy and the following thereof, it's unreal
<beerdo> Saddam: On the notion of the Mane's deep doofus voice.
<beerdo> also lack of mane
<beerdo> bible buffé
<beerdo> The Champion of Cyrodiil is literally a nobody
<Blanko> >champion
<Blanko> >literally a nobody
<Blanko> tip top kek
<beerdo> hehehehe

I was criticizing the exchange from a metanarrative perspective, not an in-universe one.  Of course I don't expect the characters to all fall to their knees and grovel before me or whatever.

[Ghost of V]

Saddam, you are so meta.

[beardo]

It depends on the trope and how they go about subverting it.  If they were trying to subvert the trope in this case, I don't think they did a very good job.

Problem?

[Saddam Hussein]

Trahearne, my nemesis.  At least Martin was voiced by an engaging and charismatic actor!

Anyway, back to Oblivion's quests.  These are the best quests that the series has ever had, and by far the best part of Oblivion.  You know, Oblivion is actually the first TES game I played, way back in 2011.  I remember being irritated by all the flaws that the game had back then - the boring generic medieval European fantasy setting, the total of five or six voice actors, the potato faces, the awkward conversation system, etc. - but I kept playing it, because the quests were so fun and creative.

I also agree with a post that Vauxy made way earlier in the thread (which I won't quote, because I said I wouldn't do that anymore) about the guilds.  I like the way that in Oblivion, you spend a lot of time moving up the ranks in the guilds doing routine work for them, the kind of thing that they usually do.  There's very little of that in Skyrim outside of the radiant side-quests.  They all almost immediately throw you headfirst into the great struggle for the guild's very existence or whatever, and then very quickly following that put you in charge.  It's silly. Oblivion's guilds are far more immersive.

[Rushy]

But Saddam, you want people to know that you're the hero in this story and it only makes sense for them to make you the leader at the first possible opportunity. Mundane things are for peasants, not heroes.

[Ghost of V]

I also agree with a post that Vauxy made way earlier in the thread (which I won't quote, because I said I wouldn't do that anymore) about the guilds.  I like the way that in Oblivion, you spend a lot of time moving up the ranks in the guilds doing routine work for them, the kind of thing that they usually do.  There's very little of that in Skyrim outside of the radiant side-quests.  They all almost immediately throw you headfirst into the great struggle for the guild's very existence or whatever, and then very quickly following that put you in charge.  It's silly. Oblivion's guilds are far more immersive.

Yes, and I think this example is a testament to the quality of the writing in Oblivion. You can tell they put a lot of heart and soul into the quests in Oblivion, whereas Skyrim went for the whole "you're the best... aroundddd!" kinda deal, and the writing was shallow beccause of it. The biggest offender, I think, is the Dark Brotherhood quiestline in Skyrim. My god, what a load of shit. Especially the quest "Hail Sithis", in which you kill the current emperor of Tamriel: Titus Mede II. I don't have a problem with that. That's kinda cool. But the aftermath is not. I wish I could see the longterm effects of this, but no. Dark Brotherhood gets sacked and you become the leader you were always destined to be. Skyrim handles the death of a very important character very haphazardly, as if they threw that bit in there just for the "wow! so cool!!!" factor and nothing more.

[Saddam Hussein]

But Saddam, you want people to know that you're the hero in this story and it only makes sense for them to make you the leader at the first possible opportunity. Mundane things are for peasants, not heroes.

You're conflating the main quest and the guild quests.  To put it bluntly, the main quest is dumb.  Nowhere near as stupid as F3's main quest, but still pretty bad.  It's dumb from the very first moment that Emperor Patrick Stewart is all like, "Hey, random prisoner!  Did you know that you're special?  I've seen you in a dream!  I think there are great things in store for you!"  There's no salvaging any kind of realistic flow or naturalistic character development from a story this hamfisted.  So seeing how you're already the Super-Duper Hero of Destiny, they might as well run with it and let you be the Super-Duper Hero of Destiny in peace.

[Rushy]

You're conflating the main quest and the guild quests.  To put it bluntly, the main quest is dumb.  Nowhere near as stupid as F3's main quest, but still pretty bad.  It's dumb from the very first moment that Emperor Patrick Stewart is all like, "Hey, random prisoner!  Did you know that you're special?  I've seen you in a dream!  I think there are great things in store for you!"  There's no salvaging any kind of realistic flow or naturalistic character development from a story this hamfisted.  So seeing how you're already the Super-Duper Hero of Destiny, they might as well run with it and let you be the Super-Duper Hero of Destiny in peace.

But only the emperor ever thought you were special, all the guards, including Baurus, made it pretty clear that they think the emperor was just going nuts. Baurus eventually goes along with it, but he clearly thinks you're incompetent as the story progresses.

Your argument still makes no sense. It's like you needed something to keep this thread alive and are now throwing shit at the wall hoping it sticks.

[Ghost of V]

I think the Emperor just got lucky depending on who's controlling the hero of Oblivion. If you complete the game it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy set in motion by the Emperor himself. If the player doesn't complete the main story then the Emperor was just flat out wrong. He was probably just going insane, but remember... he did predict his own death with pretty good accuracy so he does have that going for him.

It's actually a pretty genius way to start the story, imo. Because you technically do not have to fulfill the Emperor's prophecy.

[Particle Person]

Your argument still makes no sense. It's like you needed something to keep this thread alive and are now throwing shit at the wall hoping it sticks.

Welcome to fifty pages ago.

[Saddam Hussein]

But only the emperor ever thought you were special, all the guards, including Baurus, made it pretty clear that they think the emperor was just going nuts. Baurus eventually goes along with it, but he clearly thinks you're incompetent as the story progresses.

That doesn't stop Baurus from sending you on to Jauffre with the Amulet when he could easily do it himself, nor Jauffre and Martin from entrusting with you with many more missions following that despite having an entire intelligence agency at their command.  Indeed, in the very quest we're discussing, Baurus was content to let you take the lead in gathering and interpreting the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, which makes his sudden decision that he'll go undercover instead of you all the more odd.

It's like you needed something to keep this thread alive and are now throwing shit at the wall hoping it sticks.

Well, duh.  And on that note, there's this interesting book called The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel that you get if you buy the Imperial Edition.  Obviously, it's meant to be the "equivalent" of the PGEs that came with previous games.  You can read it all here, but be warned that it's quite long, and gets more and more uncomfortably grimdark as it goes on:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/emperors-guide

In the Skyrim section, there's a nod to one of Kirkbride's silly writings about Nords painting cows that they intend to offer to giants as sacrifices.  It's not the first time that bit of Kirkbridean lore has been referenced, though.  There's a random event in Skyrim (by which I mean TES V, not TESO's Skyrim) where you see a farmer walking a painted cow over to a giant camp.

[Rushy]

That doesn't stop Baurus from sending you on to Jauffre with the Amulet when he could easily do it himself, nor Jauffre and Martin from entrusting with you with many more missions following that despite having an entire intelligence agency at their command.  Indeed, in the very quest we're discussing, Baurus was content to let you take the lead in gathering and interpreting the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, which makes his sudden decision that he'll go undercover instead of you all the more odd.

He made it clear he didn't want to do any of that, but his respect for the emperor was high enough that he does what the emperor says, even if he thinks it is a bad idea.

[Saddam Hussein]

Does that matter?  It still comes down to the same thing - you're the hero because the Emperor says you are.

[Ghost of V]

Does that matter?  It still comes down to the same thing - you're the hero because the Emperor says you are.

No. You're the hero if you choose to be the hero, Saddam.

You don't know anything about the Scrolls series.

[Saddam Hussein]

Obviously this is all assuming you chose to do the main quest.  If you didn't, then the whole discussion is moot.