Thork

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2013, 12:22:34 AM »
Why do we have to hurry up and make a decision, when we really do not know what the heck we are voting for?  Let's work out the details, then figure out how we should vote.  Thork wants to rush things, but we should do this in a more organised manor. 
I'm pushing to get the vote done, because I honestly don't think it matters what the council does in terms of who gets voted for. I'm sure the same people will get in no matter what rules and stipulations are put in.

As for all these extra things (should we have a president etc) let the council decide that. Then they can go back and give you a vote on who president should be if they decide they want one. The whole point of the council is that they can generally make most of the decisions between them, without 40 people all throwing opinions into every topic with the result being that nothing gets done. Like this.

Like I said, there's no rush.
We've been discussing this for two weeks. I know it seems like a rush to you, because you only came back today. People are voting. If we stop the vote, cancel the vote, change the rules for voting etc, people are just going to lose interest.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 12:25:50 AM by Thork »

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Offline juner

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2013, 12:33:46 AM »
I agree that it needs to get done.  What we are voting on is a group of people who have 6 months to get some things done.  Forming this constitution, and all the regulations.  Defining the powers of the council, etc.  We have to have some belief that the community can trust these people they are voting for.  It is temporary anyway, and if things work out the way we hope, we will have paved a great way for the future of this forum, and organization.  If it fails, it was temporary anyway and can be blown up and started from scratch.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2013, 12:40:20 AM »
Well, but that's the thing. We don't know what we're voting for, and it really does matter. Are we voting for a constitutional committee? Because if so I'm inclined to vote based on who's cleverest, not who's most likely to actually get things done.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2013, 12:57:19 AM »
We do know what we are voting for, which is why squevil has received so many votes.

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2013, 01:31:04 AM »
My idea at least was to get these guys in and then make some decisions on what they will do and the purpose. We have a rough idea on what the council will do. But I think its important that we do not delay too long because we all want this forum to become more active than the old one and I think council members will push that agenda.
Everything else I could add has already been said really. I think the main point though is no matter if we vote today or in a few months time the results would be just about the same. Can I be so bold to say you might be a bit annoyed because you didnt have a chance to be added to the list? If thats the case I dont see the harm in adding you now as there are still plenty of people who should vote. Admittedly I overlooked you Tausami in my nominations, because I think you should of been on that list.

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2013, 08:25:41 AM »
I can't vote for anyone because I don't know what is they're meant to represent. At the moment people are being voted for because of popularity not what they're capable of.

I'm worried that this self defined council will just be an elite club of friends that don't actually do anything. This council could actually divide the forum.

One of the things the council could do is decide on a coherent voice of flat earth theories and update the F&Q. If they do that I would vote for a council member who knows something about flat earth theory. At the moment I can't nominate or vote based on anything but popularity.

I also don't see why you need to rush it. If you want to speed it up a bit put some milestones in place.

i.e.

Ask people what they think the council should do - 2 days

Summarise the answers and structure the purpose of the council- 1 day

Put together three options based on the summary of what the council should do and vote on them- 2 days

etc...



Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2013, 12:29:36 PM »
But we are voting for people who actively participate in flat earth talks and have a keen interest in the FES. But as for the structure idea. That won't work either. No discussion will end in 2 days. You have been saying that this voting isn't fair for 2 days alone.
Markjo has been arguing that the earth is round for years is an even better example.
All voting for anything will always include a popularity contest, that can't be avoided. But will these votes be any different after weeks of talks about what they should do? No. Not unless you fall out with somebody, in that case it's another popularity contest.
Yeah this is moving swiftly. But it's only because it would make no difference when the votes took place.
I dunno maybe it's just in my own head but I was under the impression that we had a rough idea about what the council would do.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2013, 01:54:36 PM »
I can't vote for anyone because I don't know what is they're meant to represent. At the moment people are being voted for because of popularity not what they're capable of.

I'm worried that this self defined council will just be an elite club of friends that don't actually do anything. This council could actually divide the forum.

One of the things the council could do is decide on a coherent voice of flat earth theories and update the F&Q. If they do that I would vote for a council member who knows something about flat earth theory. At the moment I can't nominate or vote based on anything but popularity.

I also don't see why you need to rush it. If you want to speed it up a bit put some milestones in place.

i.e.

Ask people what they think the council should do - 2 days

Summarise the answers and structure the purpose of the council- 1 day

Put together three options based on the summary of what the council should do and vote on them- 2 days

etc...

If that's what the council's going to be about, I'd like a nomination. I've put too much damn work into that FAQ to stop working on it now.

Here's a question: what can't the council do? Should they be allowed to be moderators? Should they be allowed to be admins?
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline Snupes

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2013, 02:17:03 PM »
Are we able to change our votes? Because new old regulars signing up is making a bit of a difference.
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2013, 03:05:26 PM »
Are we able to change our votes? Because new old regulars signing up is making a bit of a difference.

I would think that this should be acceptable.

Thork

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2013, 08:24:39 PM »
One of the things the council could do is decide on a coherent voice of flat earth theories and update the F&Q. If they do that I would vote for a council member who knows something about flat earth theory.
Then don't vote for me. I'm not going to railroad other FErs to follow my version of FET. Yes, I think its the best, that's why I think those things. But some flat earthers think earth is an infinite plain, some subscribe to gravity, some UA, some bendy-light, others a firmament.
I would
a) not expect anyone to defend a theory they don't believe in
b) worry that narrowing FET would stifle debate and reduce the number of possibilities for discussion on the forum.

I know some of you RErs come here hoping to deal FET a death-blow and get off on trying to shoot holes in it and that's fine. I'm also aware that shoe-horning FET into a little box (read corner) would make that infinitely more easy for you. But the point of the flat earth society is that its a place for free-thinkers. Not a bunch of belligerent automatons that defend whatever the council comes up with. New ideas and theories (good ones) are always welcome.

Ultimately, whoever you vote, you are going to have to trust they will make things better. Surely a group of 5 people will do a better job than a single president who is never here.  Vote for whomever you think will do the best job a looking after the society.

If you want to change your vote, just do it. It was secret anyway. Just send Squevil an updated vote. He'll take the last one you submit when the votes are in.

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2013, 08:36:05 PM »
But we are voting for people who actively participate in flat earth talks and have a keen interest in the FES. But as for the structure idea. That won't work either. No discussion will end in 2 days. You have been saying that this voting isn't fair for 2 days alone.
Markjo has been arguing that the earth is round for years is an even better example.
All voting for anything will always include a popularity contest, that can't be avoided. But will these votes be any different after weeks of talks about what they should do? No. Not unless you fall out with somebody, in that case it's another popularity contest.
Yeah this is moving swiftly. But it's only because it would make no difference when the votes took place.
I dunno maybe it's just in my own head but I was under the impression that we had a rough idea about what the council would do.

May I suggest this very quickly put together council structure (I have no problem if you want to make a better job of it).

A six member council with three different roles, Council Community Representative, Council Community Member and Council Flat Earth Theory Representative:

Council Community Representative

Two members of the council act as the community representative. They highlight issues to do with the forum that members may have a concern about (i.e. unjust bans, inappropriate mod behaviour or the request to ban a member etc...) they also promote the flat earth society and act as it's representative within the media.

Council Flat Earth Theory Representative

Two members of the council act as the conduit of knowledge for any flat earth theories that may develop from forum discusions or new evidence. They are responsible for bringing any new or revised flat earth theories to the council to be voted on and passed. They update the FAQ and revise the wikki.

Community Council Member

Two members of the council act as independant council members and are required to represent the community and vote on important issues. They ensure the proceedings of council meetings are made transparent and publish the issues that were raised and voted on in council meetings. They also collate the votes from the council meetings and publish each council members voting position.

Each member of the council irrespective of their title should:

Promote the views of the flat earth community that they represent.
To vote on issues that have been raised within the council that require a vote.
To bring any relevant issues to the council that the community wants to be discussed and possibly voted on.


All six council members must vote, however only four votes are required for a motion to pass. If a member chooses not to vote then a 2/3 majority is required from the remaining council members. If there are not enough council members to provide a 2/3 majority then a hung council is called and a new election for council members is required.

On issues that change the constitution of the council a 100% vote is required if this is not achievable a hung council is called and a new election of council members is required.

At any time 50% of the council can call for a new council election.

The council is required to sit every month. A new council election is called every 6 months.


Like I said I just did this 'on the pack of a fag packet' so please feel free to change it or not implement it at all. But you do need some kind of structure to the council and some rules that you can apply when your voting on or discussing issues.

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2013, 11:00:18 PM »
We can have the top 6 in if you want, that shouldnt be an issue. I can see the 5th and 6th places going on a tie off though.

Tsuami has been added. Guys feel free to alter your votes. I can keep track of them, no worries ;)

Thork

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »
Make it 5 as Parsifal first suggested.

6 is going to end up in lots of tied votes, and frankly the less squabbling the better.

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2013, 11:25:06 PM »
It would be bad to change now. How about we keep as 5 and in 6 months time you guys can see whats working and what isnt?

Offline Blanko

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2013, 11:27:33 PM »
in 6 months time

This is always a good idea

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2013, 11:29:11 PM »
Those of you who voted for admins NEED to change your vote. Just tell me who you want to swap out and its done with.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2013, 11:30:32 PM »
Fine, I'll vote for you instead.

Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2013, 11:40:53 PM »
Sarcasm noted. But im not in it anyway, it would be a conflict of interest.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Thread for talking about council nominations.
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2013, 11:44:42 PM »
What? Other people were voting for you.