Offline jamball

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Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:33:29 PM »
I can't find an answer in the wiki for this question.
How does the Flat Earth model explain the movement of stars above/below horizon as someone moves North/South during the night?
If I take a nighttime time-lapse of the movement of the stars around the north pole, if I'm in Canada, I point my camera nearly straight up, but if I'm in Colombia, my camera is pointed nearly horizontal. And if I move 5 or 6 degrees latitude south of the equator, let's say I'm in Northern Peru, and I can't see the north star at all.

I can't conceptualize how this observation could be made on a FE model of our universe.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2020, 04:38:15 PM »
Pretty sure the answer lies in EA.  What you're experiencing is the bending of light due to EA.  At least that's my understanding which anyone is free to correct and I won't get my feelings hurt.

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Offline jamball

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2020, 04:46:11 PM »
There has been no verifiable evidence or tests or theories that support EA. 
And, I'll grant the EA is a thing that actually exists.
I still can't wrap my head around the geometry of how the observations would still work.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2020, 05:10:08 PM »
There has been no verifiable evidence or tests or theories that support EA. 

Tests are not required.  Verifiable evidence does exist as you witness EA everyday.  At least I think that will be the argument presented, but I'm just guessing here.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2020, 05:34:50 PM »
EA Page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration

It does seem questionable whether straight line trajectories are prevalent in nature. It's mainly the RE theory where I've heard that.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200811195324/http://www.tedpavlic.com/post_phil101_uncertainty.php

Author: Dr. Theodore P. Pavlic - http://www.tedpavlic.com/facjobsearch/docs/tpavlic_cv.pdf

Quote
Now, the more modern view of quantum mechanics treats photons as particles which carry a probability with them which has both a magnitude and a phase. When photons with equivalent magnitudes and opposite phases "intersect," their probabilities subtract to zero and no photon is detected. Keeping this in mind, understand that light does not travel in straight lines from one point to another. Light travels in all directions through all possible curves and paths from one place to another. In the end, our observations are of where the probabilities "add up," which typically is along a path of a straight line. When light is forced through inhomogeneous space its probabilities cancel in such a way where the curved paths add up or perhaps multiple paths show up.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200811195321/http://www.wlym.com/archive/pedagogicals/light.html

Author: https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=43126

Quote
Let's try to take on a Newtonian with this:

"So you see, light does {not} travel in straight lines!"

"Yes it does, if you do not disturb it. But by interposing matter, an inhomogenous medium, you deflected the rays from their natural, straight-line paths."

"How do you know that straight-line paths are `natural`?"

"If a light ray were allowed to propagate unhindered, in a pure vacuum or perfectly homogeneous medium, then it would propagate precisely along a straight line. It is just like the motion of material bodies in space according to Newton's first law: `a material body remains in its state of rest or uniform motion along a straight line, unless compelled by forces acting upon it to change its state.` No one could deny that."

"Does a `pure vacuum` exist anywhere in nature? Does a `perfectly homogenous medium' exist in nature?"

"Well no, of course. There is always a bit of dirt around, or inhomogeneities that disturb the perfectly straight pathways."

"So the presence of what you call `dirt` is natural, right?"

"Yes."

"So then it is natural that light never travels in straight-line paths."

"Wait a minute. You are mixing everything up. I am talking about the natural propagation of light, quite apart from matter."

"What do you mean, `quite apart from matter`? Do you assume that the existence of light is something that can be separated from the existence of matter?"

"Yes, certainly. The natural state of light is that of light propagating in a Universe that is completely empty of matter."

"And a completely empty Universe is a natural thing? Do you claim such a thing could ever exist?"

"I could imagine one. Sometimes I get that feeling inside my head."

"Maybe that is because you are not thinking in the real world."

"Don't blame me for that. I am a professional physicist."

"Well then, fill the vacuum in your mind with the following thought: Light and matter do not exist as separate entities, nor does matter act to bend rays of light from what you imagine in your fantasy-universe to be perfectly straight-line rays."
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 05:50:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2020, 06:05:31 PM »
Are you arguing that the quote you provided from Dr. Pavlic supports the large scale bending of light  or that light doesnt travel in straight lines unless forced to curve by inhomogeneities of media it passes through? Though I'm nowhere near a subject matter expert in this, I'm not sure all that stuff about probabilities cancelling out in specific ways would be strong support for the rest of your arguments in this case.

Offline jamball

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2020, 06:14:24 PM »

https://web.archive.org/web/20200811195324/http://www.tedpavlic.com/post_phil101_uncertainty.php

Author: Dr. Theodore P. Pavlic - http://www.tedpavlic.com/facjobsearch/docs/tpavlic_cv.pdf


https://web.archive.org/web/20200811195321/http://www.wlym.com/archive/pedagogicals/light.html

Author: https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=43126


Neither of these gentleman are physicists with any degree in Optics, QFT, or any related field so I'm not sure how that adds to the discussion. Besides, no one has answered my question from my observation.

Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2020, 08:40:51 PM »
If you want the wiki's answer, you'll find it in the entry Shifting Constellations. Perspective, allegedly.  ::)

https://wiki.tfes.org/Shifting_Constellations
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Offline jamball

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2020, 09:29:35 PM »
Okay, yeah I read that, and it geometrically doesn't make sense. They are talking about vanishing points and foreshortening, but demonstrably doesn't work how the wiki describes.

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Offline RhesusVX

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2020, 11:46:11 AM »
It does seem questionable whether straight line trajectories are prevalent in nature. It's mainly the RE theory where I've heard that.

I think you are overcomplicating things with your quotes and references.  At a level which impacts our daily lives, light travels in a straight line from the Sun to the Earth, in rays that are as near as makes no difference to our daily lives, parallel.  This one factual observation accounts for plenty of things we see with our own two eyes and can measure with simple equipment.  I see this a lot with FET - when something cannot be explained, reams of pseudo-science and interpretation get thrown at it.

Yes, light does bend, but not in the way FET and EA supposes.  Refraction is something most school children are taught, and while they may not understand the underlying physics and actual quantum effects, they can see with their own two eyes that light bends when it passes through things with different refractive indices.  A vacuum (i.e. space) has a refractive index of 1.00000, air has an average refractive index of 1.00029 at STP, and water is 1.333.  As you can see, light is hardly affected by air relative to a vacuum.  However, STP does vary in the atmosphere, so...

The refraction coefficient of our atmosphere has an average of k=0.17.  This means that light is ever so slightly curved TOWARDS the surface of the Earth, not away from it as EA would have you think.  The closer you are to the ground, the lower the temperature, the more k increases to the point that light can follow the curvature of the Earth for hundreds of miles.  However, once you are a few meters above the ground, the effect is negligible as the density gradient gets less and less.  For EA to be correct the Earth would need an average refraction coefficient of -1.  This is not the case.  Even on a flat Earth, light would still curve towards to the surface at low altitudes due to the same density gradient.

The impact of atmospheric refraction is very well known and understood, with plenty of actual science and mathematical models to back it up.  The theory of EA has never, ever been observed or shown to be a true effect in nature, and sill relies on an unknown force pulling or pushing light away from the surface and doing a U-bend back into space.

As for the whole thing about shifting constellations and the fact that we observe counter-rotation in one hemisphere to the other, all of that is explained elegantly in RET.  In FET it needs perspective and other "anti-rotation of stars" theories, where I can't find anything else anywhere on the internet to back up such theories and claims.
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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2020, 03:00:16 PM »
The refraction coefficient of our atmosphere has an average of k=0.17.

Are you sure about this? I was under the impression k represents the extinction coefficient of the medium, not its refractive index which is represented by n and is 1.0003 for air at 0 deg C and 1 atmosphere pressure.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:03:13 PM by Longtitube »
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline RhesusVX

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Re: Disappearing Stars as you walk North/South
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2020, 03:14:08 PM »
The refraction coefficient of our atmosphere has an average of k=0.17.

Are you sure about this? I was under the impression k represents the extinction coefficient of the medium, not its refractive index which is represented by n and is 1.0003 for air at 0 deg C and 1 atmosphere pressure.

Yeah sorry, my bad for using refractive index (n) for the numbers comparing vacuum, air and glass, then when I was just talking about our atmosphere I switched to refraction coefficients (k)  The numbers stated are correct though, and don’t correlate with what would be needed to support the theory of EA.
Quote from:  Earth, Solar System, Oort Cloud, LIC, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Laniakea Supercluster, Universe
"Sometimes you need to take a step back to see the bigger picture, and sometimes you need to think outside the box dome"