geckothegeek

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2016, 04:14:34 PM »
Have you never been to sea or have you never stood on the shore and looked out to sea on a clear day ?
I have. Rabinoz has kindly provided photos which blow your explanation out of the water. He did rather dishonestly shrink the images to mask the blurring, but hey, we're here to correct such attempts, aren't we?






(Excessive BBCode stripped for readability and to allow for the blur to be more clearly visible)

Naturally, rabinoz also wants you to think that you're seeing something else, and that basic chemistry need not apply to his fantasy world [necessary consequence: rabinoz's sky isn't blue], but let's overlook that for the sake of maintaining our sanity.

As for your "distance from the horizon" argument, it applies perfectly well to FET (you do understand perspective, don't you?), so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

According to flat earth, the horizon would not be clearly seen as in the photographs. They would just show the ocean in the foreground fading to a blur in the bsckground..
Please answer my questions in a previous post rrgardiing the horizon if the earth was flat.

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2016, 05:43:05 PM »
According to flat earth, the horizon would not be clearly seen as in the photographs. They would just show the ocean in the foreground fading to a blur in the bsckground..
Please answer my questions in a previous post rrgardiing the horizon if the earth was flat.

No one has ever said that except Rabinoz and you. You can't see far enough way for the atmosphere to begin to blur to an indistinct line, unless of course it's an extra foggy or hazy day.

If the horizon is the curvature of the Earth, and you can clearly see it, why can't you clearly see the curvature of the horizon without being 100k feet in the air?

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2016, 06:57:27 PM »
According to flat earth, the horizon would not be clearly seen as in the photographs. They would just show the ocean in the foreground fading to a blur in the bsckground..
Please answer my questions in a previous post rrgardiing the horizon if the earth was flat.

No one has ever said that except Rabinoz and you.

Thirded.

I just tend to shy away from this argument since it is somewhat hard to quantify.

Offline truth

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Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 01:11:52 AM »
Can someone explain to me, why when we see ship or buildings from long distance they are as taken from animation ?,
I know it is because of the air, it is not crystal clear and showing things according to the forces working on it ? but what yours excuse ?

geckothegeek

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 05:11:42 AM »
Can someone explain to me, why when we see ship or buildings from long distance they are as taken from animation ?,
I know it is because of the air, it is not crystal clear and showing things according to the forces working on it ? but what yours excuse ?

Can you explain what you mean by a "they are as taken from animation" ?

Offline truth

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Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 12:37:27 PM »
Can someone explain to me, why when we see ship or buildings from long distance they are as taken from animation ?,
I know it is because of the air, it is not crystal clear and showing things according to the forces working on it ? but what yours excuse ?

Can you explain what you mean by a "they are as taken from animation" ?
The Horizon looks like clumsy painting.

geckothegeek

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 05:04:40 PM »
To "truth"-

I can see, as is the usual case, it is impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion with a so-called "flat earth believer" so it's time to vacate  the premises.
But I do know the earth is a globe.
I do know the earth is not a flat disc.
I do know the horizon is a distinct line where the sea and sky meet.
I do know how to estimate the distance to the horizon.
And I do know it's not just a blur.
And I am no genius like skeptimatic or truth,  but I do know a few other things that the so-called "flat earth believers" seem to pretend to not know.

So if you don't want to learn anything and stay in your ignorance, so be it.
Just don't talk to anyone in the  Navy  or anyone who has ever been in the Navy about your idea of a so-called "flat earth" if you  want to stay out of trouble.

With best regards, best wishes, and hope for your future intelligence, Adios Amigos......LOL
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 05:12:05 PM by geckothegeek »

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2016, 06:37:46 PM »
To "truth"-

I can see, as is the usual case, it is impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion with a so-called "flat earth believer" so it's time to vacate  the premises.
But I do know the earth is a globe.
I do know the earth is not a flat disc.
I do know the horizon is a distinct line where the sea and sky meet.
I do know how to estimate the distance to the horizon.
And I do know it's not just a blur.
And I am no genius like skeptimatic or truth,  but I do know a few other things that the so-called "flat earth believers" seem to pretend to not know.

So if you don't want to learn anything and stay in your ignorance, so be it.
Just don't talk to anyone in the  Navy  or anyone who has ever been in the Navy about your idea of a so-called "flat earth" if you  want to stay out of trouble.

With best regards, best wishes, and hope for your future intelligence, Adios Amigos......LOL

Please, before you go, would you mind answering my question?

Quote
If the horizon is the curvature of the Earth, and you can clearly see it, why can't you clearly see the curvature of the horizon without being 100k feet in the air?

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2016, 08:03:47 PM »
Please, before you go, would you mind answering my question?

Quote
If the horizon is the curvature of the Earth, and you can clearly see it, why can't you clearly see the curvature of the horizon without being 100k feet in the air?

I'll give it a shot if you don't mind.

First of all, it's easier to notice curvature that is parallel to your line of vision, rather than perpendicular. Imagine going to the hardware store and picking out a long board. You want a perfectly straight board. If you set the boards down horizontally on a bench, and then step back, they might all look fairly straight. But if you hold the board up to your eye as if you are looking down the barrel of a gun, you can see the tiny imperfections. This is because all the tiny imperfections are compressed into a tiny section of your vision, which makes them stand out.

But there is another reason why horizontal curvature is difficult to notice. Mathematically, the horizon is the same distance away from you in all directions (assuming symmetrical terrain). This is true for both a flat earth and a round earth. Therefore, the curvature of the horizon is due ENTIRELY to the dip in visual angle to the horizon. (dg in this image:)



There are 2 things about this that you should understand:

1. There is a dip in the visual angle to the horizon for a flat earth as well. Unless you believe that the horizon is an infinite distance away, which most flat earthers don't believe, for obvious reasons. This means that there should be curvature for a flat earth horizon as well, although it would be slightly less than that of a round earth.

2. How you perceive this curvature is entirely dependent on how the 3d view of the horizon is projected onto a 2d image. For example, for a cylindrical panorama, the horizon would appear perfectly straight, regardless of the dip angle. Think of the lines of latitude on a globe. They are curved, right? But in a mercator projection, all lines of latitude are perfectly straight, regardless of "dip angle" (degrees away from the equator).

If you want to get a feel for how much curvature you would see based on a given "dip angle", I recommend downloading Stellarium.

1. Turn off the ground and atmosphere.
2. Turn on the Azimuthal grid.
3. Position the camera so that the horizontal line labelled "+0 degrees" is in the middle of the screen. It should be perfectly straight.
4. Zoom in until your horizontal field of view is similar to the average camera. (about 60 degrees)
5. Now look at the curvature of the line labelled "-10 degrees".

See how little curvature is visible in that line? For reference, to actually achieve a -10 degrees dip angle to the horizon, you would have to be 320,000 feet high. 60 miles high.

The dip angle for a person with an eye level of 6 feet is only -0.04 degrees. That is a tiny fraction of the curvature of the -10 degree line.

Feel free to change which projection Stellarium uses. It comes with a long list of different projections. The one it uses by default is fairly close to human vision.

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2016, 09:38:57 PM »
Haven't read too much of this thread (apologies to all) but I say mention of the atmoplane and its transparency. I live in South Carolina, and as many may know there was massive fire rather near my state. This fire created alot of smoke, some of which found its way above my area.
As I was crossing a bridge (both as a passenger and lacking my phone, so no pictures) but it was late in the day and the sun was setting. Now on a normal day (as it had been the previous dozens of times I've crossed this bridge in my life) the sun would ever so slowly descend and eventually find the sea-level marshlands obscure my view of it. This most recent day, with the smoke lingering like a thick fog, found the sun a few hours before setting lacking its usual glare. This was because of literal miles of smoke. A few hours later as the sun found itself probably 45 minutes or so from the horizon, the sun became difficult to locate (despite knowing where it should be) because nearly half of it descended to the point where the smoke was too thick to see the sun through. About ten minutes later, the smoke fully obscured the sun, leaving us with only ambience lighting for rest of its trip to and past the horizon.

Now why I mention this is because this experience of mine (and the reverse of the sun appearing) would happen daily were the world flat and the atmoplane thick enough to obscure it. Instead I only got see it once, and that was thanks to a massive fire polluting its neighbouring states.

This was a rather unique sun "set" as I've witnessed it on a single day, rather than 6700 or so that make up my life. (Although were the Earth actually flat the sun would not only fade, but shrink and distort, but that's not my point here)

I really wish I had had my phone that day so I could've shown you guys the difference between the sun fading and the sun setting.
Occasional poster, frequent observer.
Round Earth.

RE is a complex theory of simple answers.
FE is a simple theory of complex answers.


Also ignoring intikam.

geckothegeek

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2016, 09:39:23 PM »
Please, before you go, would you mind answering my question?

Quote
If the horizon is the curvature of the Earth, and you can clearly see it, why can't you clearly see the curvature of the horizon without being 100k feet in the air?

I'll give it a shot if you don't mind.

First of all, it's easier to notice curvature that is parallel to your line of vision, rather than perpendicular. Imagine going to the hardware store and picking out a long board. You want a perfectly straight board. If you set the boards down horizontally on a bench, and then step back, they might all look fairly straight. But if you hold the board up to your eye as if you are looking down the barrel of a gun, you can see the tiny imperfections. This is because all the tiny imperfections are compressed into a tiny section of your vision, which makes them stand out.

But there is another reason why horizontal curvature is difficult to notice. Mathematically, the horizon is the same distance away from you in all directions (assuming symmetrical terrain). This is true for both a flat earth and a round earth. Therefore, the curvature of the horizon is due ENTIRELY to the dip in visual angle to the horizon. (dg in this image:)



There are 2 things about this that you should understand:

1. There is a dip in the visual angle to the horizon for a flat earth as well. Unless you believe that the horizon is an infinite distance away, which most flat earthers don't believe, for obvious reasons. This means that there should be curvature for a flat earth horizon as well, although it would be slightly less than that of a round earth.

2. How you perceive this curvature is entirely dependent on how the 3d view of the horizon is projected onto a 2d image. For example, for a cylindrical panorama, the horizon would appear perfectly straight, regardless of the dip angle. Think of the lines of latitude on a globe. They are curved, right? But in a mercator projection, all lines of latitude are perfectly straight, regardless of "dip angle" (degrees away from the equator).

If you want to get a feel for how much curvature you would see based on a given "dip angle", I recommend downloading Stellarium.

1. Turn off the ground and atmosphere.
2. Turn on the Azimuthal grid.
3. Position the camera so that the horizontal line labelled "+0 degrees" is in the middle of the screen. It should be perfectly straight.
4. Zoom in until your horizontal field of view is similar to the average camera. (about 60 degrees)
5. Now look at the curvature of the line labelled "-10 degrees".

See how little curvature is visible in that line? For reference, to actually achieve a -10 degrees dip angle to the horizon, you would have to be 320,000 feet high. 60 miles high.

The dip angle for a person with an eye level of 6 feet is only -0.04 degrees. That is a tiny fraction of the curvature of the -10 degree line.

Feel free to change which projection Stellarium uses. It comes with a long list of different projections. The one it uses by default is fairly close to human vision.

I would be interested in knowing how you would  calculate the distance to the horizon if the earth was flat ?
Do you have any ideas on this and/or would you like to take a shot at it ?
To be honest, I am a so-called "Round Earther" and don't have an answer. It seems you would not see a horizon , but just a blur because of the so-called "Thickness of the 'atmoplane'" ?

And while I served in the US Navy and was never a lookout , I knew there was a "Navy Manual For Lookouts" which had charts for estimating the distance to the horizon based on the height of the observor ot lookout above sea level.
This was used, I understand, in their training to estimate distances and compare them with those on the ship's radar.
My specialty rating was an Electronics Technican and part of  my responsibilities  were on a surface search radar system. Its range was limited to the horizon which was limited by the height of the radar antenna .
I know this works for "Round Earth" and de-bunks the "Flat Earth" idea.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 10:38:04 PM by geckothegeek »

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2016, 08:52:54 PM »
I would be interested in knowing how you would  calculate the distance to the horizon if the earth was flat ?
Do you have any ideas on this and/or would you like to take a shot at it ?

You could measure the dip angle to the horizon and then convert that to distance on a flat earth. This would result in a horizon that is slightly closer than on a round earth for a given dip angle.

     distance = h/sin(angle)

Of course, this just pushes the problem one step backwards: how can we predict what the dip angle will be? No idea. It should be noted that Rowbotham claims the dip angle doesn't exist, and that it is just an error in the measuring equipment. Or something. I think Rowbotham believes the horizon is an infinite distance away. I don't remember though. I could be wrong.

Rowbotham also provides a way to calculate how much of an object is obscured behind the horizon, assuming you are at exactly ground level. It's an idiotic explanation, but its there if you are curious.

Quote
To be honest, I am a so-called "Round Earther"...

Yeah, I know. In case you didn't notice, both of us have posted to this forum regularly for a long time.

geckothegeek

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2016, 03:23:36 AM »
I would be interested in knowing how you would  calculate the distance to the horizon if the earth was flat ?
Do you have any ideas on this and/or would you like to take a shot at it ?

You could measure the dip angle to the horizon and then convert that to distance on a flat earth. This would result in a horizon that is slightly closer than on a round earth for a given dip angle.

     distance = h/sin(angle)

Of course, this just pushes the problem one step backwards: how can we predict what the dip angle will be? No idea. It should be noted that Rowbotham claims the dip angle doesn't exist, and that it is just an error in the measuring equipment. Or something. I think Rowbotham believes the horizon is an infinite distance away. I don't remember though. I could be wrong.

Rowbotham also provides a way to calculate how much of an object is obscured behind the horizon, assuming you are at exactly ground level. It's an idiotic explanation, but its there if you are curious.

Quote
To be honest, I am a so-called "Round Earther"...

Yeah, I know. In case you didn't notice, both of us have posted to this forum regularly for a long time.

If you get down to basics there is really no way to make any sense of "flat earth" ideas of the horizon or anything else about a "flat earth" for one simple reason.:
It's impossible.
The earth is not flat, it is a sphere.

It would be interesting if some so-called "flat earth believer" could come forth with somethimg  -  in his own words - to try to explain how the horizon looks and how you would estimate  the distance to the horizon if the earth was flat.

But so far no so-called "flat earth believer" has come forth with an explanation - in his own words - for one simple reason.:
It's impossible.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 03:28:10 AM by geckothegeek »

Re: The Flat Earth Explanation Of The Horizon Is Impossible
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2016, 02:16:29 PM »
I know its not easy for RE'ers to argue the flat earth case but that doesn't justify pretending your seeing something different than is clearly shown in a photograph. The photos with the buoy do clearly show a sharp horizon - not perfectly sharp obviously but its easily sharp enough to see the position of the buoy relative to the apparent horizon ( I think that's a sufficient definition of sharp for this purpose) . In one the buoy is clearly in front of the horizon as you can see sea beyond and that horizon line extends up a 3rd of the buoy's height in the photo. In the second the buoy sits virtually at the horizon as no more sea can be seen beyond and the horizon line is at the base of the buoy. It's obvious the horizon is closer in this second picture from this and the size of the buoy in the picture. The difference is simply due to the first picture being taken from a higher height than the other - very easily explained on a globe as demonstrated above. Of course you are going to see different levels of blurring of the horizon and this is dependant on the distance the horizon is away from you and the atmospheric conditions.  However this blurring doesn't explain the position of the horizon since it can be changed so dramatically depending on the height you view from. In these pictures the atmosphere is rather clear so helps demonstrate this.