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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2016, 12:41:54 AM »
You denigrate RE believers because we stand on what scientists using the scientific method have provided.

Why have FE believers not been able to muster a collection of evidence based upon the zetetic method which is incontrovertible and refutes evidence provided through the scientific method?

It's not our place to have to defend the basic and obvious, its your place to refute it.
Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you.  We can look up and see satellites as they go around the earth.  We can measure the difference in gravity between the poles and the equator.  We can measure and explain the Coriolis Effect.  We have seismographs all over the world, with results that can only be explained if it was round.  We get new pictures of the earth from space every single day.  We can calculate the distance to the moon using reflectors placed there during the Apollo program.  We know the strength of gravity from the moon and the sun, and we can use it to explain the tides.  We have centuries of proof.  You're the one suggesting that we throw that all away because the earth looks flat when you stand on it.

None of that is really basic or obvious.
The bit about the satellites is probably the most obvious, but I still have yet to hear an explanation from you for why there are two high tides each day.

How are they obviously space ships in orbit around a globe?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2016, 01:09:36 AM »
You denigrate RE believers because we stand on what scientists using the scientific method have provided.

Why have FE believers not been able to muster a collection of evidence based upon the zetetic method which is incontrovertible and refutes evidence provided through the scientific method?

It's not our place to have to defend the basic and obvious, its your place to refute it.
Sure to your eyes the earth looks flat, but when I look around with open eyes I see numerous things that simply do fit with that conclusion.
Everything from the sun and moon staying the same size all the time they are visible to the sun rising in the East (here and I gather EVERYWHERE) at the equinoxes - you might check it out on 7 days time - I see it rises almost in the east here now.

So I what do I see with my own etes:
  • The Earth looks flat and the horizon looks flat - it does, simply because the earth is huge![1]
  • On a clear day looking out to sea the sky-horizon interface is a sharp line (it is only about 5 km away!). On a flat earth it would have to fade into the distance with no distinct boundary.
  • The sun appears to rise from behind the horizon and appears to set behind the horizon.
  • The sun stays the same size as it arcs up and over the sky - actually it sometimes seems a bit little larger at sunrise and sunset.
  • The sun always appears to be a disk, though sometimes a bit distorted at sunrise and sunset.
  • The sun always rises due east and sets due west on each equinox - here, and I am told it happens all over the earth.
  • Likewise the moon appears to rise from behind the horizon and appears to set behind the horizon.
  • The moon stays the same size as it arcs up and over the sky - it sometimes seems a bit bigger at moonrise and moonset.
  • The moon always appears to show the same face wherever it is in the sky. (And from wherever we observe it - though we have to travel for this observation).
  • The full moon always appears to be a circle, though sometimes a bit distorted at moonrise and moonset.
While none of this is evidence of a rotating earth, but I believe is strong evidence of a Globe with a distant (that is far further than the earths size) sun and moon. So many of these points are "explained away" by TFES using "perspective", "bendy light" (massive refraction), extreme "magnification" by the atmosphere or simply ignored. These explanations are simply quoted with no justification at all!

Of these, number (1) could indicate a flat earth or a globe, but then when we try to work out what the sun and moon are doing, we get into big trouble.
The Flat Earth movement just takes (1) and says "The earth is flat", then gets into terrible trouble explaining away all of the others with fanciful ideas of perspective, bending light, "celestial gears", universal acceleration (powered by "dark energy") and on and on.

But all the other points are far more simply explained on a Globe Earth, though not necessarily rotating.

There are more points you can see around every day (like the movement of the stars at night!) that are hard to explain on any flat earth model without resorting to nothing more than guesswork about strange things like celestial gears and aetheric whirlpools etc.

Even the problems with the stationary Globe earth were found in the past from observations made without modern instruments. Largely eyes and simple (though large) angle measuring equipment.

Honestly, I find that the Globe Earth conforms far better to the Zetetic approach than all the imagination and guesswork needed to support any Flat Earth model!

No, the globe has been accepted with very good reason for well over 2,000 years. Its size has been known accurately since around 1,000 AD - Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973–1048) and the heliocentric globe was gradually accepted (with a bit of a struggle in places) over the period from the 1600's to the early 1800's.

Yes, you are the newcomers and need good evidence as to why we should go back to the "old ways". I am continually amazed at the profession where the globe simply comes implicitly into the work - right through of course from Geodetic Surveying, and navigation, to microwave link installations and satellite TV and GPS. So many things that just would not work in the way they do on a flat earth! And, it is NOT simply a matter of viewpoint as John Davis would have us believe - it is simply a matter of fact, the earth is certainly some definite shape and the main contenders are certainly flat or globe.


[1] If you were the size of an ant (1.5 mm eye height - we have big ants!) the earth would be around 10 km in diameter.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2016, 01:46:08 AM »
Sure to your eyes the earth looks flat, but when I look around with open eyes I see numerous things that simply do fit with that conclusion.
Everything from the sun and moon staying the same size all the time they are visible to the sun rising in the East (here and I gather EVERYWHERE) at the equinoxes - you might check it out on 7 days time - I see it rises almost in the east here now.

So I what do I see with my own etes:

Lets see about that.

Quote
  • The Earth looks flat and the horizon looks flat - it does, simply because the earth is huge![1]

This is actually a case of you disbelieving your own eyes.

Quote
  • On a clear day looking out to sea the sky-horizon interface is a sharp line (it is only about 5 km away!). On a flat earth it would have to fade into the distance with no distinct boundary.

I see things get squished into the distance until they are so small that I can't see it anymore, creating a line. Nothing about that is incompatible with a Flat Earth. The same is seen on computer games.

Quote
  • The sun appears to rise from behind the horizon and appears to set behind the horizon.

No one sees this. We see the sun intersect with the horizon. No one sees it go "behind" it.

Quote
  • The sun stays the same size as it arcs up and over the sky - actually it sometimes seems a bit little larger at sunrise and sunset.

If you saw the sun get larger at sunset then that is evidence that the sun is undergoing an enlarging illusion of some sort.

Quote
  • The sun always appears to be a disk, though sometimes a bit distorted at sunrise and sunset.

The sun is a globe in Flat Earth Theory. I am not sure what you are getting at.

Quote
  • The sun always rises due east and sets due west on each equinox - here, and I am told it happens all over the earth.

I highly doubt you saw what happened from every point on the earth on equinox.

Quote
  • Likewise the moon appears to rise from behind the horizon and appears to set behind the horizon.

No one saw this.

Quote
  • The moon stays the same size as it arcs up and over the sky - it sometimes seems a bit bigger at moonrise and moonset.

Again, admitting to an enlargement illusion.

Quote
  • The moon always appears to show the same face wherever it is in the sky. (And from wherever we observe it - though we have to travel for this observation).

That's not actually true, the moon does shift a little (although admittedly not as much as it would according to classic perspective on an FE.. but we say that classic perspective theory is wrong, anyway).

In fact, over time, the moon shifts so much that it was possible to make a map of the back side of the moon decades before NASA claimed to have sent space ships to look there.

Quote
  • The full moon always appears to be a circle, though sometimes a bit distorted at moonrise and moonset.

The moon is a globe in Flat Earth Theory.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2016, 02:19:39 AM »
How are they obviously space ships in orbit around a globe?

They can be seen, photographed (in great detail with telescopes).
The locations of geostationary satellites can be photographed (needs an astronomical telescope) against a moving background of stars.
The locations of these geostationary satellites can be found by triangulation from the bearings needed from the dishes in various locations.
The various global positioning systems (GPS, GLONASS, Galileo or Beidou) cannot be convincingly explained without satellites.
The number of (near) real-time satellite weather satellite photos coming in is a bit hard to explain without satellites.
On this I suppose you are going to claim acres of painters busily creating convincing cloud patterns so a new photograph (in about 8 "light: wavelengths) around every 10 minutes - more often when we consider the lower weather satellites.
   
Must be busy little bees painting up all these pictures! And here's one from 13 MAR 2016 02:00 UTC (about 15 minutes ago!):

Yes, it is a bit wet here in SE Queensland right now! Those busy little bees got it right again!

Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2016, 02:45:38 AM »
in your horrible rotating globe photoshop it seems to represent at least a quarter of a day. Are you telling me that over 6 hours clouds mearly smudge a little? Eventhough I can look at the sky and watch them move. Even the weather channel shows clouds moving across an entire region in less time than that. And you still havent explained sex in the clouds. I guess nature can be funny sometimes lol

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2016, 04:47:59 AM »
in your horrible rotating globe photoshop it seems to represent at least a quarter of a day. Are you telling me that over 6 hours clouds mearly smudge a little? Eventhough I can look at the sky and watch them move. Even the weather channel shows clouds moving across an entire region in less time than that. And you still havent explained sex in the clouds. I guess nature can be funny sometimes lol


I think it's stupid how much you and Bishop say things without context or evidence, while rabinoz and I just keep posting more and more actual proof.  If you're gonna dismiss the evidence we provide, you have to have a good reason! 


Also, who mentioned sex in the clouds?  Are you trying to distract us from the fact that your argument is crumbling? 
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Offline juner

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2016, 05:20:34 AM »
Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you. 

False. I would recommend an elementary lesson on logic before you proceed further. I also appreciate how you ignored my previous post. Typical of round earthers...



Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2016, 05:54:31 AM »
Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you. 

False. I would recommend an elementary lesson on logic before you proceed further. I also appreciate how you ignored my previous post. Typical of round earthers...

Exactly. He didnt even address what I said about the lack of actual cloud movement... Only that that graphic is somehow evidence even though it's obviously fake.

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2016, 12:43:06 PM »
Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you. 

False. I would recommend an elementary lesson on logic before you proceed further. I also appreciate how you ignored my previous post. Typical of round earthers...

Exactly. He didnt even address what I said about the lack of actual cloud movement... Only that that graphic is somehow evidence even though it's obviously fake.
But it's not fake!  It's obviously fucking not!  The only reason you say that is out of necessity, because it would mean you're wrong! 


And by the way, it was rabinoz' post you were talking about.  I was going to let him address it.  But if anyone found out that the image didn't match real life, they would have flipped their shit.  Anecdotal evidence won't get you out of this hole. 
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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2016, 02:38:45 PM »
Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you. 

False. I would recommend an elementary lesson on logic before you proceed further. I also appreciate how you ignored my previous post. Typical of round earthers...

Exactly. He didnt even address what I said about the lack of actual cloud movement... Only that that graphic is somehow evidence even though it's obviously fake.
But it's not fake!  It's obviously fucking not!  The only reason you say that is out of necessity, because it would mean you're wrong! 


And by the way, it was rabinoz' post you were talking about.  I was going to let him address it.  But if anyone found out that the image didn't match real life, they would have flipped their shit.  Anecdotal evidence won't get you out of this hole.

How the fuck do you know? Just because you're the equivalent of the head of the robotics club at your college doesn't make you an expert on "space" photography.

The only reason you believe it is real is out of necessity, because it would mean ask the Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan and the thousands of hours of NASA fan boy shit you've done would have been a waste of your time, in effect, most of your life would have been a fucking waste.

On the other hand, you think I'm somehow umbilically attached to the earth being flat when I just heard about it 2 months ago. You're wrong. I haven't said once that the earth is flat. All I hold is that NASA is utter dog shit and all photos and evidence provided by them is generally unverified and is best wholesale gobbled up by losers like you.

Man hasn't left earths atmosphere. He didnt land on the moon. And you are a virgin.

Id bet my pay check on any of those facts.

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2016, 03:25:41 PM »
Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you. 

False. I would recommend an elementary lesson on logic before you proceed further. I also appreciate how you ignored my previous post. Typical of round earthers...

Exactly. He didnt even address what I said about the lack of actual cloud movement... Only that that graphic is somehow evidence even though it's obviously fake.
But it's not fake!  It's obviously fucking not!  The only reason you say that is out of necessity, because it would mean you're wrong! 


And by the way, it was rabinoz' post you were talking about.  I was going to let him address it.  But if anyone found out that the image didn't match real life, they would have flipped their shit.  Anecdotal evidence won't get you out of this hole.

How the fuck do you know? Just because you're the equivalent of the head of the robotics club at your college doesn't make you an expert on "space" photography.

The only reason you believe it is real is out of necessity, because it would mean ask the Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan and the thousands of hours of NASA fan boy shit you've done would have been a waste of your time, in effect, most of your life would have been a fucking waste.

On the other hand, you think I'm somehow umbilically attached to the earth being flat when I just heard about it 2 months ago. You're wrong. I haven't said once that the earth is flat. All I hold is that NASA is utter dog shit and all photos and evidence provided by them is generally unverified and is best wholesale gobbled up by losers like you.

Man hasn't left earths atmosphere. He didnt land on the moon. And you are a virgin.

Id bet my pay check on any of those facts.
Calling NASA dog shit is far worse a transgression than simply thinking the earth is flat.  And when you lose your paycheck to the bet, I sincerely hope they cut off your internet access. 
I'm sick of trying to reason with you, because you clearly are not a rational person.  Therefore, I will let you read these
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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2016, 03:32:25 PM »
Clearly not rational because I disagree with you, right.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I think you're problem is you're entirely too educated in all the wrong ways.

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2016, 03:56:33 PM »
Clearly not rational because I disagree with you, right.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I think you're problem is you're entirely too educated in all the wrong ways.
Clearly not rational because you keep dismissing everything that rabinoz and I say without any sort of reason, and because you never bothered to look at evidence that NASA is telling the truth.  Anyone who truly weighs both sides fairly will reach the conclusion that we've been to the moon, and that we are on a round earth.  And those who don't will end up like you, blindly cursing an organization they have no reason to hate with evidence they never bothered to understand. 
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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2016, 07:56:47 PM »
Clearly not rational because I disagree with you, right.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I think you're problem is you're entirely too educated in all the wrong ways.
Clearly not rational because you keep dismissing everything that rabinoz and I say without any sort of reason, and because you never bothered to look at evidence that NASA is telling the truth.  Anyone who truly weighs both sides fairly will reach the conclusion that we've been to the moon, and that we are on a round earth.  And those who don't will end up like you, blindly cursing an organization they have no reason to hate with evidence they never bothered to understand.

Just because you don't understand, or agree with my reasons, doesn't mean they are not valid. If I was cursing NASA so blindly, and so uninformed, then why is there even suspicion of a conspiracy at all? Do you think conspiracy theories are all plucked out of thin air, for no reason? They're called theories because there is evidence to back them up, and probable cause to conclude things aren't exactly as they appear. Or, you can accept everything you're told as the absolute truth, and to me that is what I call being blind.

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Offline Woody

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2016, 08:36:12 PM »
Clearly not rational because I disagree with you, right.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I think you're problem is you're entirely too educated in all the wrong ways.

To be fair I do see a lot of responses that just say some evidence supplied is fake or lies with nothing backing up throughout this forum.

The wiki has something described as conclusive evidence where the distance stated is 10 miles off and it is questionable if the telescope could be placed only 20" above the water in the area the observer said he was.
A lot of other information in the wiki can not be verified because of the lack of crucial data.  Seems one or more of these is left out frequently; observer height, distance, location, formulas used, methodology to allow reproduction, current weather conditions.  All very simple to supply. As with the Bishop Experiment it seems when enough information is given the conclusions of the Earth being flat can be considered flawed.

Similar to videos like restoring the view of a boat when zooming in.  When the boat is clearly not beyond the visible horizon.  If you want evidence of that just notice the sky and water line behind the boat.

As other evidence I offer the prairie dog photo posted by Tom Bishop about the level of thought and fastidiousness that goes into making a claim that supports the FE hypothesis on space exploration:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=4759.msg92114#msg92114

Does not research the matter, does not notice the lack of a front leg, the shadow and makes no attempt to explain it.  Just sees something that could be a rodent and claims it is. He backs his claim with 10 out of 10 people think it is a rodent.

[How are they obviously space ships in orbit around a globe?

There are many observations that can be made with binoculars, a relatively cheap telescope, and using some math.

The ISS can be viewed with the naked eye, binoculars, and telescopes.  With binoculars I have been able to make out the solar panels.

Figuring out where satellite dishes are pointed will give evidence of space travel.  The dishes are directional antennas that are pointing towards a satellite in geostationary orbit, so were are told.  It is not that complicated to figure out where two or more dishes receiving a signal from the same satellite are pointed.  Where the imaginary lines intersect or get close to intersecting(if you are not too meticulous gathering the data) is evidence where the signal is coming from.

Iridium flares can be observed.  They first started becoming visible around the late 1990's.  You can find plenty of sources to tell you when and where to look.

You can take long exposures of the night sky where geostationary satellites are said to be.


You can try things like this:
http://makezine.com/2009/07/22/catching-satellites-on-ham-radio/

IMHO if the search for truth is TFES objective they really do not seem to be trying too hard to seek out that truth.  My guess one reason not doing two or more of the above is that it will offer evidence that space travel happens, those pictures from space agencies are real and that is damning evidence against the Earth being flat.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2016, 08:48:47 PM »
[How are they obviously space ships in orbit around a globe?

There are many observations that can be made with binoculars, a relatively cheap telescope, and using some math.

The ISS can be viewed with the naked eye, binoculars, and telescopes.  With binoculars I have been able to make out the solar panels.

Figuring out where satellite dishes are pointed will give evidence of space travel.  The dishes are directional antennas that are pointing towards a satellite in geostationary orbit, so were are told.  It is not that complicated to figure out where two or more dishes receiving a signal from the same satellite are pointed.  Where the imaginary lines intersect or get close to intersecting(if you are not too meticulous gathering the data) is evidence where the signal is coming from.

Iridium flares can be observed.  They first started becoming visible around the late 1990's.  You can find plenty of sources to tell you when and where to look.

You can take long exposures of the night sky where geostationary satellites are said to be.


You can try things like this:
http://makezine.com/2009/07/22/catching-satellites-on-ham-radio/

IMHO if the search for truth is TFES objective they really do not seem to be trying too hard to seek out that truth.  My guess one reason not doing two or more of the above is that it will offer evidence that space travel happens, those pictures from space agencies are real and that is damning evidence against the Earth being flat.

Nothing about that tells us that they are obviously space ships in orbit around a globe earth.

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2016, 10:16:52 PM »
[How are they obviously space ships in orbit around a globe?

There are many observations that can be made with binoculars, a relatively cheap telescope, and using some math.

The ISS can be viewed with the naked eye, binoculars, and telescopes.  With binoculars I have been able to make out the solar panels.

Figuring out where satellite dishes are pointed will give evidence of space travel.  The dishes are directional antennas that are pointing towards a satellite in geostationary orbit, so were are told.  It is not that complicated to figure out where two or more dishes receiving a signal from the same satellite are pointed.  Where the imaginary lines intersect or get close to intersecting(if you are not too meticulous gathering the data) is evidence where the signal is coming from.

Iridium flares can be observed.  They first started becoming visible around the late 1990's.  You can find plenty of sources to tell you when and where to look.

You can take long exposures of the night sky where geostationary satellites are said to be.


You can try things like this:
http://makezine.com/2009/07/22/catching-satellites-on-ham-radio/

IMHO if the search for truth is TFES objective they really do not seem to be trying too hard to seek out that truth.  My guess one reason not doing two or more of the above is that it will offer evidence that space travel happens, those pictures from space agencies are real and that is damning evidence against the Earth being flat.

Nothing about that tells us that they are obviously space ships in orbit around a globe earth.
Well, maybe it doesn't tell you that, but if they aren't in orbit, then how the fuck are they up there?!
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Offline Woody

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2016, 01:03:26 AM »
[How are they obviously space ships in orbit around a globe?

There are many observations that can be made with binoculars, a relatively cheap telescope, and using some math.

The ISS can be viewed with the naked eye, binoculars, and telescopes.  With binoculars I have been able to make out the solar panels.

Figuring out where satellite dishes are pointed will give evidence of space travel.  The dishes are directional antennas that are pointing towards a satellite in geostationary orbit, so were are told.  It is not that complicated to figure out where two or more dishes receiving a signal from the same satellite are pointed.  Where the imaginary lines intersect or get close to intersecting(if you are not too meticulous gathering the data) is evidence where the signal is coming from.

Iridium flares can be observed.  They first started becoming visible around the late 1990's.  You can find plenty of sources to tell you when and where to look.

You can take long exposures of the night sky where geostationary satellites are said to be.


You can try things like this:
http://makezine.com/2009/07/22/catching-satellites-on-ham-radio/

IMHO if the search for truth is TFES objective they really do not seem to be trying too hard to seek out that truth.  My guess one reason not doing two or more of the above is that it will offer evidence that space travel happens, those pictures from space agencies are real and that is damning evidence against the Earth being flat.

Nothing about that tells us that they are obviously space ships in orbit around a globe earth.

I assume you still have access to the telescope you used for the Bishop Experiment. You have access to the internet since you can post in these forums.  You got all the tools you need to find out the how, when and where to observe the ISS.  Something is up there, moving faster then any plane I have seen.  Viewing it through my binoculars I could make out the general shape and solar panels. 

Figuring out where satellite dishes using the same satellite are pointed can give you a pretty good idea of the altitude of the source of the signal.  Same reason why almost since radio was invented the source of the signal could be located.  If you are really meticulous and exact you should get a very good estimate of the location the satellite signal is coming from.  Is there a flaw in my logic?  Satellite dishes using the same satellite need to be set at different elevations and directions in different locations.  If you get LOP's that show an altitude in the atmosphere then you have evidence that space flight is a lie.

Find reports for the Iridium flares prior to the late 90's?  Reason I am using the Iridium satellites is they are usually the brightest things in the night sky. 

You can combine the long exposure pictures with the SatTV suggestion.  Do they at least reasonably coincide?  Is there any documentation prior to spaceflight observations of these things not moving in the night sky?

You can not track a satellite and at least note the amount of time you were able to track it?  You can not do this?  https://amateurgeophysics.wordpress.com/earth-orbiting-satellites/the-doppler-shift-of-satellite-radio-beacons/

If I wanted to prove space travel is impossible I would not just say it is.  I would look for ways to prove to myself or others I am right and if within my means would do so.  The above are the cheapest and relatively easiest ways I could think of to gather data and evidence.

Edit: If you can determine that something man made is up there then at the very least it should help to refine the FE model.  Like the altitude of what I will call the can not pass line.  Not 100% sure where space starts on the FE model.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 01:12:52 AM by Woody »

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2016, 01:21:46 AM »
Considering the Original Subject : "Why should anyone believe the earth if flat ?"
There is really no realistic or logical answer other than the old "If I look out my window the earth looks flat" and go no further than that in your knowledge or reasoning.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Why should anyone believe the earth is flat?
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2016, 02:32:51 AM »
Sure to your eyes the earth looks flat, but when I look around with open eyes I see numerous things that simply do fit with that conclusion.
Everything from the sun and moon staying the same size all the time they are visible to the sun rising in the East (here and I gather EVERYWHERE) at the equinoxes - you might check it out on 7 days time - I see it rises almost in the east here now.
So I what do I see with my own eyes:
Lets see about that.
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The Earth looks flat and the horizon looks flat - it does, simply because the earth is huge![1]
This is actually a case of you disbelieving your own eyes.
I said "looks flat"! Sure and a rainbow certainly "looks to end in the field just over there!" - you go there and it moves! You really do "always believe you eyes"? Of course I claim that the real reason it "looks flat" is that the earth is huge - and it is!

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • On a clear day looking out to sea the sky-horizon interface is a sharp line (it is only about 5 km away!). On a flat earth it would have to fade into the distance with no distinct boundary.
I see things get squished into the distance until they are so small that I can't see it anymore, creating a line. Nothing about that is incompatible with a Flat Earth. The same is seen on computer games.
Sorry, but I don't get my earth model from computer games - maybe I should!
But, honestly on a clear day the limit of vision on a flat earth would be just atmospheric absorption (Rayleigh scattering) leading to a fuzzy horizon, as we see from a mountain!
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The sun appears to rise from behind the horizon and appears to set behind the horizon.
No one sees this. We see the sun intersect with the horizon. No one sees it go "behind" it.
I said "appears" to . . . . . And the sun does appear to go below the horizon right down to the the final tiny arc disappearing into a bright dot! This link might show what I mean: http://www.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/ess05.sci.ess.eiu.riseset/observe-sunrise-and-sunset/

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The sun stays the same size as it arcs up and over the sky - actually it sometimes seems a bit little larger at sunrise and sunset.
If you saw the sun get larger at sunset then that is evidence that the sun is undergoing an enlarging illusion of some sort.
Yes "the sun is undergoing an enlarging illusion", but it IS an illusion due to the proximity of objects to compare it with.
And the main point is that the sun and moon stay the same size as the move across the sky. In the FE model they would have to change in size by a factor of around FOUR -  until you drag in purely magic magnification that exactly compensates!

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The sun always appears to be a disk, though sometimes a bit distorted at sunrise and sunset.
The sun is a globe in Flat Earth Theory. I am not sure what you are getting at.
Some claim the sun i s not a disk. In any case I fail to see how your "spotlight" sun can look like a FULL DISK and suddenly not be there at sunset - more magic I guess!

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The sun always rises due east and sets due west on each equinox - here, and I am told it happens all over the earth.
I highly doubt you saw what happened from every point on the earth on equinox.
I never said that I saw that! And, really are you going to doubt such a well known fact? When you travel don't you look up sunrise/set times of places you are going to, probably on somewhere like: http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/. Ever found them wrong!

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • Likewise the moon appears to rise from behind the horizon and appears to set behind the horizon.
No one saw this.
See my sun comments!
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The moon stays the same size as it arcs up and over the sky - it sometimes seems a bit bigger at moonrise and moonset.
Again, admitting to an enlargement illusion.
See my sun comments!
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The moon always appears to show the same face wherever it is in the sky. (And from wherever we observe it - though we have to travel for this observation).
That's not actually true, the moon does shift a little (although admittedly not as much as it would according to classic perspective on an FE.. but we say that classic perspective theory is wrong, anyway).

In fact, over time, the moon shifts so much that it was possible to make a map of the back side of the moon decades before NASA claimed to have sent space ships to look there.
That statement is utter rubbish. Yes, we can see up to 59% of the moon's surface due to the moon's libration:
Quote
Lunar libration
The Moon generally has one hemisphere facing the Earth, due to tidal locking. Therefore, humans' first view of the far side of the Moon resulted from lunar exploration in the 1960s; however, this simple picture is only approximately true: over time, slightly more than half (about 59%) of the Moon's surface is seen from Earth due to libration.
Libration is manifested as a slow rocking back and forth of the Moon as viewed from Earth, permitting an observer to see slightly different halves of the surface at different times.
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libration

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: rabinoz
  • The full moon always appears to be a circle, though sometimes a bit distorted at moonrise and moonset.
The moon is a globe in Flat Earth Theory.
Sure, but please explain how it gets illuminated, especially at full moon whaen it is at the opposite side of the earth from the sun - around 12,000 miles away from the "spotlight sun", which is supposedly shining down where it is day. Maybe you could explain on the diagram below!
Please carefully explain how BOTH of these observers see a full round moon!
Or, give me a better diagram so that I can understand it better.

This has got right out of hand. Let's agree that we see the world through quite different eyes!

E&OE probably lots of them.