[TomInAustin]

The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time.

I'm sure you will have no problem providing the math and scientific proof on that right?

[Bobby Shafto]

Hoping Tom will identify where it fails.

I'm going to go ahead and answer, and Tom can ponder it.

Apparently solving the sunset descent angles for Perth and Hong Kong with the bi-polar flat earth model wrecks things elsewhere. Sunrises for both cities (which occurred just a few hours ago) are skewed even more by the bi-polar map and the discrepancy of opposite angles/bearing drift is back again, not the mention that the azimuth of sunrise is wildly off.

And if I throw in San Diego, which is approaching Monday sunset after Perth and Hong Kong have enjoyed their Tuesday sunrises, why am I seeing the sun to the west with bearing drifting to the north?



There are more problems than simply angle of the ascent/descent of the sun with the bi-polar map. By solving one problem for observers in one part of the world, you create enormous discrepancies that depart from what is observed in other parts of the world. What seemed to work to (maybe) resolve the sunsets for Hong Kong and Perth invokes worse problems for sunrise just a few hours later. It's like a whack-a-mole game of stretching a flat earth here and there to solve localized enigmas only to create more elsewhere.   

[Tom Bishop]

I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents and nature of the magnetic field lines is a matter yet to be studied.

[titidam]

I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents is unknown.

Does North point towards the North pole?

[Tom Bishop]

I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents is unknown.

Does North point towards the North pole?

The magnetic field lines are usually explained to branch out of the North and South Poles like the field lines on a bar magnet:

Yes, it took me one glance at the picture: Look at the equator! How do you get from Ecuador to New Guinea on this "map"?

The same way you get from LA to Japan on the Monopole model: Travel Westwards.

In the Bi-Polar Model there are two poles. The magnetic field lines resemble something like the field lines of a bar magnet. Essentially something like this, but in three dimensions:



The compass aligns itself with the field lines and adjusts itself when one travels Westwards or Eastwards in the Northern or Southern Hemiplane to go around either the North or South poles.

Since the magnetic field lines in magnets wrap around and interconnect, none traveling out into space in an unconnected fashion, traveling North or South at any point will also take you to either the North or South Pole.

'North' may be in a different direction than North, but will take you to the North Pole if you follow it.

[titidam]

'North' may be in a different direction than North, but will take you to the North Pole if you follow it.

Right then I suppose South will take you to the South Pole if you follow it. Then what is this direction?



When you're at the North Pole, every direction points South. But not this one. So what is it?

[Bobby Shafto]

I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents and nature of the magnetic field lines is a matter yet to be studied.

I realize that, but to assert that it is the solution means you must have some answers. It's a hallmark of zeteticism to observe and collect data to develop theory. You're trying to salvage a theory from speculation and dodge critique by citing the model's lack of substance.

Maybe the reason a good bi-polar model doesn't exist is because it can't. As soon as you bend the path of the sun laterally, you create distortions that have impacts. The best I think you can hope for is to confine those distortions and discrepancies to portions of the earth where they won't be noticed or measured; then when objections are raised you can say "prove it."

Whatever the bi-polar solutions is, it has to satisfy this sun trajectory ovservation. If you can figure that out, good on you. Would be a major breakthrough. Until then, maybe not assert the bi-polar model as the answer when it's still far from formulated. That's anathema to being zetetic.

[Tom Bishop]

It's a very complex topic. Deriving a map from such sun data would require surmounting such difficulties:

- Magnetic declination - North on a Magnetic Compass doesn't always point at the North Star, and the difference can be significant. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_declination

- Knowledge on how East and West are used in whatever source you are looking at for the activity of the sun.

- Do we know, from what basis, how whatever sun data we are using was generated, or if any part is theoretical?

- Many different possible configurations of a bi-polar map.

[Tom Bishop]

'North' may be in a different direction than North, but will take you to the North Pole if you follow it.

Right then I suppose South will take you to the South Pole if you follow it. Then what is this direction?



When you're at the North Pole, every direction points South. But not this one. So what is it?

Magnetic Field Lines do not just travel off endlessly into nothing. They wrap around back to the opposite pole to exchange virtual photons. If you were to follow 'South', it would eventually take you to the South Pole.

Alternatively, when you go off the map in that model, you will hit an Ice Wall. Beyond the rays of the sun the waters will naturally freeze.

[titidam]

Magnetic Field Lines do not just travel off endlessly into nothing. They wrap around back to the opposite pole to exchange virtual photons.

That's exactly the problem with this map. There is no wrap back, between North and South or East and West.

Alternatively, when you go off the map in that model, you will hit an Ice Wall. Beyond the rays of the sun the waters will naturally freeze.

You're not answering what this mysterious direction is, that takes you from the North Pole to the Ice Wall - or to this location, even if it's not frozen.

It can't be South since it doesn't take you to the South Pole. It can't be North since it takes you away from North. It can't be East or West since you remain in the same longitude.

So what direction is it?

[Tom Bishop]

If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

[stack]

If were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

Much in the way of 'possibility'. Maps aside, for all intents and purposes, if there are many different bi-polar configurations to consider, unobserved ice walls, continent orientation is ambiguous, would it be fair to say that in FET, the sun's path is unknown?

[titidam]

If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

This doesn't answer anything.

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

[Tom Bishop]

If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

This doesn't answer anything.

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

If were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

Much in the way of 'possibility'. Maps aside, for all intents and purposes, if there are many different bi-polar configurations to consider, unobserved ice walls, continent orientation is ambiguous, would it be fair to say that in FET, the sun's path is unknown?

Much about these details are unknown. We do not have the funding to study the matter and rely solely on visitor contributions.

[titidam]

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

Well if you don't even have a theoretical answer, it won't get any better in practice.

In the real world, East and West are directions that planes can follow, even at the Equator.

The wrap around is given by the sphere. On the bi-polar map, what happens?

[stack]

If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

This doesn't answer anything.

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

If were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

Much in the way of 'possibility'. Maps aside, for all intents and purposes, if there are many different bi-polar configurations to consider, unobserved ice walls, continent orientation is ambiguous, would it be fair to say that in FET, the sun's path is unknown?

Much about these details are unknown. We do not have the funding to study the matter and rely solely on visitor contributions.

Understood. But in another breath, you'll mention how the 'ancient's' have known and contributed to FET as we know it and how all of modern astronomy is simply based upon patterned ancient FET observations. It's somewhat flummoxing that an argument can be made as to how the FET sun path is when:

A) FET Models are unknown due to modern budgetary constraints
B) FET Models have been around since the ancients

At the end of the day, FET is not aware as to how the sun paths. So literally no argument can made against how RET explains it.

[Bobby Shafto]

Many of these questions are merely theoretical.

How is that different from the model they question? Especially when that model evades questions by being a theory in search of evidence rather than evidence leading to a theory?

The rigor and demand with which you (Tom) question or don’t question evidence and theories is directly correlated to whether or not it is favorable to a flat earth model or critical of a globe.

I presented an observable phenomenon. You presented a bi-polar model as an answer. But when it is questioned you dismiss them with excuses you would never accept if lobbed at a globe earth claim.

How does this form of investigation meet zetetic criteria? How can you claim to be after truth when you’ve already decided what is true and alter your method of inquiry according to whether or not it helps your truth?

Much about these details are unknown. We do not have the funding to study the matter and rely solely on visitor contributions.

I sympathize, but then shouldn’t you be more reticent about asserting it as an answer until you can answer even basic questions?

I admire the intrepid and undaunted defense, but I simply don’t understand this mindset if it’s supposed to be an honest search for truth. I understand apologetics in the defense of faith, and this strikes me as more akin to that than zetetic inquiry.

Whatever model you wind up with, it needs to answer the OP question (among others). If it can’t yet, then you can’t honestly offer it as an answer and then equivocate when challenged.

And please don’t respond with “et tu quoque” unless you wish to admit you’re no better.

If you want to try to figure out a way to warp the current bi-Polar notional “map” to try to solve the sun trajectory puzzle, I’m willing to help. I think it’s fundamentally unsolvable due to the contradictions it needs to resolve. But you can’t just claim the answers are there and we just don’t know them yet. (Well, you CAN do whatever you want, but it won’t live up to the zetetic principles.)

[rabinoz]

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

But some "of these questions are" far from being "merely theoretical". From what you claim they might even be life or death decisions.
I had been planning flying from here in Brisbane, Q'ld, to Hawaii for a few days cruise and I would have been flying back on Hawaiian Airlines flight HA443 taking this flight path:

Are you suggesting that it would not have been able to take the route claimed for this flight of 28/Oct/2018 which Flightradar24 claimed flew about 7538 km in 9 hrs 50 mins?

I'm curious. Would it fall off the edge of the earth or have to fly some vast distance to avoid the "ice-wall"?
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map:

And any route other than directly across the Pacific would seem to be far further than could be flown in the claimed 9 hrs 50 mins.

[Tom Bishop]

These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

[JCM]

These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

Therein lies the crux of the matter.  Those flights exist.  I myself flew back and forth from Los Angeles to Melbourne twice this year over the Pacific. We never flew over land. The flight lasted 14 hours heading SW and returning NE. I know we were flying those directions as we were chasing the setting sun and then nearing Australia with the rising sun chasing us.  That map is impossible, indefensible, it has more problems then the other flat earth maps.  You still have never had an answer for the path of moon and sun or how a near moon and sun have the same phases for the entire world to see.  How does the sun travel twice as far along the Tropic of Capricorn then Tropic of Cancer yet its velocity remains the same?  How does the verifiable ISS or whatever it is fly above us at incredible verifiable speeds in its serpentine path only possible on a globe?  The issues of the stars above us are even less explained on the bipolar map as the latitudes on the bipolar map don’t work with star navigation.  The list goes on and on.  At some point, blind faith to Rowbotham’s book isn’t enough and your flat earth has to answer real world observations.