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Offline markjo

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2023, 09:07:39 PM »
Perhaps you should be skeptical of why NASA would allow CGI glitching to make it into the archive.  In the "live" video, maybe some CGI glitching might slip through, but it seems that any such mistakes would have been caught and fixed by the time it got to the archive.
This argument always comes across as so desperate. "If they were dishonest, they'd be more perfect about it; therefore, they must be honest." There isn't even an attempt at a logical sequence here.

Markjo, you forget that most people in this world are shockingly incompetent. If mediocrity works for their goals, why do you assume they'd strive for perfection?
Because even "shockingly incompetent" people often go to great lengths try to avoid getting caught, especially when getting caught can have some pretty significant ramifications.  Are you suggesting that doesn't care about getting caught?   It seems that NASA must not only be "shockingly incompetent" about letting obvious mistakes get into their archives, but also shockingly apathetic about getting caught.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2023, 09:14:37 PM »
Perhaps you should be skeptical of why NASA would allow CGI glitching to make it into the archive.  In the "live" video, maybe some CGI glitching might slip through, but it seems that any such mistakes would have been caught and fixed by the time it got to the archive.
This argument always comes across as so desperate. "If they were dishonest, they'd be more perfect about it; therefore, they must be honest." There isn't even an attempt at a logical sequence here.

Markjo, you forget that most people in this world are shockingly incompetent. If mediocrity works for their goals, why do you assume they'd strive for perfection?
Because even "shockingly incompetent" people often go to great lengths try to avoid getting caught, especially when getting caught can have some pretty significant ramifications.  Are you suggesting that doesn't care about getting caught?   It seems that NASA must not only be "shockingly incompetent" about letting obvious mistakes get into their archives, but also shockingly apathetic about getting caught.

You're assuming that it was an obvious mistake, but it wasn't an obvious mistake at all. That glitch only happened for approximately a second at some random point in the video. Easily could've gone unnoticed. And it did go unnoticed. How someone found that after it was uploaded to the archive, I don't even know. It's not like it was a relevant video, either. Just some inconsequential "camera footage" about nothing.

Other than that, they can get away with pretty much anything because it's all about faith anyway. NASA is simply a church at the end of the day.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 09:21:26 PM by Dual1ty »

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Offline AATW

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2023, 10:18:10 PM »
No, I'm back to explaining how science is not about credibility.
What do you mean "explaining"? You asked above if I thought science was about credibility and I said no.

Quote
Can you prove that unicorns or leprechauns exist? No? Maybe they're not real, then. Isn't that my whole point?
If that is your whole point then it's a pretty silly one. You can't prove anything to the standard you demand - we've established that it's not possible for NASA or anyone else to prove that the picture was taken from a million miles away. So, like a lot of things, we can only base our opinion on how credible the claim is.
Unicorns and leprechauns are, famously, mythical. Pretty much no-one claims they exist. If anyone did then they'd better have some very compelling evidence.

Quote
Not to mention that in order to talk about the possibility of signals sent from 1 million miles away, you need to prove that it's even possible for a signal-emitting device (or anything at all) to get there in the first place.
Again, like many things, that can't be proven to the standard you demand. But the fact that rockets exist is relevant to how credible this is. If the technology which is said to get things in to orbit didn't even exist then a claim about satellites existing would be akin to a claim about unicorns.
But rockets do exist. GPS Satellites exist, the ISS exists and can be observed. Those things are in low earth orbit, but TV satellites aren't, they're 23,000 miles above the equator. So why is it such a leap to think that things can't orbit further out?

Quote
Well, that proves the current accepted model of the universe, then.
Why are you straw-manning me? I didn't say it proved anything.
But you keep obsessing over NASA as if they have some monopoly on space. They do not.
The first module of the ISS was launched from Kazakhstan.

Your issue with NASA is that they "fake almost everything" and your basis for that is apparently in part some video which you claim had some CGI glitch (I have suggested an alternative explanation) and which you now can't find. Compelling stuff.

You paint yourself as this "independent thinker" but all you present is arguments from incredulity.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2023, 10:30:21 PM »
No, I'm back to explaining how science is not about credibility.
What do you mean "explaining"? You asked above if I thought science was about credibility and I said no.

Quote
Can you prove that unicorns or leprechauns exist? No? Maybe they're not real, then. Isn't that my whole point?
If that is your whole point then it's a pretty silly one. You can't prove anything to the standard you demand - we've established that it's not possible for NASA or anyone else to prove that the picture was taken from a million miles away. So, like a lot of things, we can only base our opinion on how credible the claim is.
Unicorns and leprechauns are, famously, mythical. Pretty much no-one claims they exist. If anyone did then they'd better have some very compelling evidence.

Quote
Not to mention that in order to talk about the possibility of signals sent from 1 million miles away, you need to prove that it's even possible for a signal-emitting device (or anything at all) to get there in the first place.
Again, like many things, that can't be proven to the standard you demand. But the fact that rockets exist is relevant to how credible this is. If the technology which is said to get things in to orbit didn't even exist then a claim about satellites existing would be akin to a claim about unicorns.
But rockets do exist. GPS Satellites exist, the ISS exists and can be observed. Those things are in low earth orbit, but TV satellites aren't, they're 23,000 miles above the equator. So why is it such a leap to think that things can't orbit further out?

Quote
Well, that proves the current accepted model of the universe, then.
Why are you straw-manning me? I didn't say it proved anything.
But you keep obsessing over NASA as if they have some monopoly on space. They do not.
The first module of the ISS was launched from Kazakhstan.

Your issue with NASA is that they "fake almost everything" and your basis for that is apparently in part some video which you claim had some CGI glitch (I have suggested an alternative explanation) and which you now can't find. Compelling stuff.

You paint yourself as this "independent thinker" but all you present is arguments from incredulity.

Son, if all you have is the credibility argument, all that does is support my point. Credibility is just another word for believing. It literally comes from the latin CREDO (creed). Believing belongs to religion, not science. Thank you for supporting my point.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2023, 10:37:14 PM »
Because even "shockingly incompetent" people often go to great lengths try to avoid getting caught, especially when getting caught can have some pretty significant ramifications.
That is perfectly consistent with what I'm proposing, yes. Could you please not waste our time with obvious statements that don't advance your position? I know it's indefensible, but at least try.

To remind you: your argument is that if NASA were faking it, they necessarily must successfully do so without making mistakes. Whether or not they're trying to avoid mistakes is entirely immaterial.

Are you suggesting that doesn't care about getting caught?
No. I am suggesting nothing more than what I said. If you have nothing to say on that subject, please consider saying nothing.

It seems that NASA must not only be "shockingly incompetent" about letting obvious mistakes get into their archives, but also shockingly apathetic about getting caught.
Markjo, how things "seem" to you is really close to the bottom of just about everyone's priority list. Your feelsie-wheelsies just don't belong in a serious discussion. Either acknowledge that the logic of your claim is poor even by your usual standards, or present an argument to defend it. No more pointless deflections.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 10:42:36 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Everette Graham

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2023, 01:01:15 AM »
Quote from: Dual1ty
No, I don't need to dance when you tell me to dance. If anything you should be the one dancing for me because you are the reality denier. ;D Nothing personal, though.

If you do not care to support your claims with evidence, nobody cares to pay attention to your claims. If this is how it will be, our conversation will end here because I am not going to drag this on to end up nowhere new.

Quote from: Dual1ty
Since I no longer have the video, it can only be an anecdotal point, and that is what it was - I never claimed it was anything beyond an anecdote. You asked "What has led you to believe that NASA is so incredible?" and that was part of the answer.

You made an assertion that there was a CGI glitch in the video. Even though you cannot find the video now, you still never shared the evidence that the video had a CGI glitch that you had at that time. Or... maybe you had no evidence? Maybe you were only seeing the video from a viewpoint that fits your narrative? Coming up with baseless conclusions about things?

Quote from: Dual1ty
The point is that's not a good example to debunk the claim that NASA fakes stuff. Like at all. It's not good to use it as evidence that NASA fakes stuff, either. It's just something curious that happened and could be interpreted a certain way, but it's not evidence of anything.

I'm sorry it doesn't fit your standards. I will do better next time, your highness.

Quote from: Dual1ty
You don't need to tell me "good job", I'm not a dog. But if you think it's an unsupported claim, that's your opinion. I'm not obliged to support my claims every time I make a claim (it's not like Earth not being a spinning globe is my personal subjective claim anyway), and I'm certainly not obliged to provide anything to you specifically just because you have this notion that me not doing that proves your beliefs right somehow.

No, it's not my opinion that your claim was unsupported. You quite literally made the assertion and followed with no evidence. What type of support is that? While you're not obliged to support your claims, you should have 0 expectations for anybody to take your claims seriously without evidence. I do not have the notion that your lack of evidence proves my beliefs. I do, however, strongly believe that your lack of evidence for your claims invalidates them as of this moment.
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

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Offline markjo

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2023, 03:22:01 AM »
To remind you: your argument is that if NASA were faking it, they necessarily must successfully do so without making mistakes. Whether or not they're trying to avoid mistakes is entirely immaterial.
No, my argument is that if NASA were faking it then they would have to do a very good job of catching and fixing their mistakes before they make into their public archive lest they get caught and shut down.

Markjo, how things "seem" to you is really close to the bottom of just about everyone's priority list.
If that's how you feel, then feel free to not waste your time and just don't engage.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2023, 07:53:07 AM »
No, my argument is that if NASA were faking it then they would have to do a very good job of catching and fixing their mistakes before they make into their public archive lest they get caught and shut down.
That is not functionally different from my interpretation of your argument. Crucially, nothing you said supports this version either. The core issue remains: you make boisterous claims about the quality of outcome, but your best supporting argument is "teehee they'd probably try, right?"

Substantiate or GTFO.

If that's how you feel, then feel free to not waste your time and just don't engage.
No, markjo. When I suggested we release you from Purgatory, that was conditional on you not returning to your old posting habits in the upper. If you can't behave, you won't post. You've already had your final warning on this issue, so let's call this a polite reminder.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 07:57:16 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Offline AATW

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2023, 08:18:11 AM »
Son, if all you have is the credibility argument, all that does is support my point. Credibility is just another word for believing. It literally comes from the latin CREDO (creed). Believing belongs to religion, not science. Thank you for supporting my point.
You are so close to an epiphany.
All you need to do now is understand that pretty much everything you are stating is also merely a belief based on what you find credible.
There is no difference between “believing” something and “knowing” it, other than your own perceived certainty. Truth exists independently of your beliefs.

Believing doesn’t “belong” to science or religion. Cogito ergo sum, basically. You know you exist, everything else you think you know is simply based on evidence and what you find credible. There is, of course, a difference between blind belief and evidence based belief. I have outlined the evidence for believing NASA’s claims, you have ignored it all and presented nothing but an argument from incredulity.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2023, 09:25:36 AM »
Quote from: Dual1ty
No, I don't need to dance when you tell me to dance. If anything you should be the one dancing for me because you are the reality denier. ;D Nothing personal, though.

If you do not care to support your claims with evidence, nobody cares to pay attention to your claims. If this is how it will be, our conversation will end here because I am not going to drag this on to end up nowhere new.

But are they MY claims, though? No, they're not. They are objective claims which have been discussed hundreds of times before. That's what you're not understanding.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
Since I no longer have the video, it can only be an anecdotal point, and that is what it was - I never claimed it was anything beyond an anecdote. You asked "What has led you to believe that NASA is so incredible?" and that was part of the answer.

You made an assertion that there was a CGI glitch in the video. Even though you cannot find the video now, you still never shared the evidence that the video had a CGI glitch that you had at that time. Or... maybe you had no evidence? Maybe you were only seeing the video from a viewpoint that fits your narrative? Coming up with baseless conclusions about things?

That doesn't compute because back then I didn't have a narrative other than my faith in heliocentrism and the globe. But nowadays I don't have a narrative either, I just go by facts.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
The point is that's not a good example to debunk the claim that NASA fakes stuff. Like at all. It's not good to use it as evidence that NASA fakes stuff, either. It's just something curious that happened and could be interpreted a certain way, but it's not evidence of anything.

I'm sorry it doesn't fit your standards. I will do better next time, your highness.

I don't think it fits anyone's standards. It's just a video of a little girl talking to Buzz. Where's the evidence about NASA faking stuff? Maybe if Buzz had said "we faked it" or "we can't go there" it would be different.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
You don't need to tell me "good job", I'm not a dog. But if you think it's an unsupported claim, that's your opinion. I'm not obliged to support my claims every time I make a claim (it's not like Earth not being a spinning globe is my personal subjective claim anyway), and I'm certainly not obliged to provide anything to you specifically just because you have this notion that me not doing that proves your beliefs right somehow.

No, it's not my opinion that your claim was unsupported. You quite literally made the assertion and followed with no evidence. What type of support is that? While you're not obliged to support your claims, you should have 0 expectations for anybody to take your claims seriously without evidence. I do not have the notion that your lack of evidence proves my beliefs. I do, however, strongly believe that your lack of evidence for your claims invalidates them as of this moment.

Again, not my claim.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 09:51:39 AM by Dual1ty »

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2023, 09:33:23 AM »
Son, if all you have is the credibility argument, all that does is support my point. Credibility is just another word for believing. It literally comes from the latin CREDO (creed). Believing belongs to religion, not science. Thank you for supporting my point.
You are so close to an epiphany.
All you need to do now is understand that pretty much everything you are stating is also merely a belief based on what you find credible.
There is no difference between “believing” something and “knowing” it, other than your own perceived certainty. Truth exists independently of your beliefs.

Believing doesn’t “belong” to science or religion. Cogito ergo sum, basically. You know you exist, everything else you think you know is simply based on evidence and what you find credible. There is, of course, a difference between blind belief and evidence based belief. I have outlined the evidence for believing NASA’s claims, you have ignored it all and presented nothing but an argument from incredulity.

LOL. If truth exists independently of beliefs, how is there not a difference between believing and knowing other than subjective certainty? See? You're not making any sense.

There is a difference between blind belief and evidence based belief, but evidence based belief is the reason that innocent people get convicted of crimes they didn't commit, all the time. That's what you're supporting.

Of course I'm incredulous of anything NASA produces. That's actually a compliment. Thank you.

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Offline Everette Graham

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2023, 08:26:51 AM »
Quote from: Dual1ty
No, I don't need to dance when you tell me to dance. If anything you should be the one dancing for me because you are the reality denier. ;D Nothing personal, though.

If you do not care to support your claims with evidence, nobody cares to pay attention to your claims. If this is how it will be, our conversation will end here because I am not going to drag this on to end up nowhere new.

But are they MY claims, though? No, they're not. They are objective claims which have been discussed hundreds of times before. That's what you're not understanding.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
Since I no longer have the video, it can only be an anecdotal point, and that is what it was - I never claimed it was anything beyond an anecdote. You asked "What has led you to believe that NASA is so incredible?" and that was part of the answer.

You made an assertion that there was a CGI glitch in the video. Even though you cannot find the video now, you still never shared the evidence that the video had a CGI glitch that you had at that time. Or... maybe you had no evidence? Maybe you were only seeing the video from a viewpoint that fits your narrative? Coming up with baseless conclusions about things?

That doesn't compute because back then I didn't have a narrative other than my faith in heliocentrism and the globe. But nowadays I don't have a narrative either, I just go by facts.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
The point is that's not a good example to debunk the claim that NASA fakes stuff. Like at all. It's not good to use it as evidence that NASA fakes stuff, either. It's just something curious that happened and could be interpreted a certain way, but it's not evidence of anything.

I'm sorry it doesn't fit your standards. I will do better next time, your highness.

I don't think it fits anyone's standards. It's just a video of a little girl talking to Buzz. Where's the evidence about NASA faking stuff? Maybe if Buzz had said "we faked it" or "we can't go there" it would be different.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
You don't need to tell me "good job", I'm not a dog. But if you think it's an unsupported claim, that's your opinion. I'm not obliged to support my claims every time I make a claim (it's not like Earth not being a spinning globe is my personal subjective claim anyway), and I'm certainly not obliged to provide anything to you specifically just because you have this notion that me not doing that proves your beliefs right somehow.

No, it's not my opinion that your claim was unsupported. You quite literally made the assertion and followed with no evidence. What type of support is that? While you're not obliged to support your claims, you should have 0 expectations for anybody to take your claims seriously without evidence. I do not have the notion that your lack of evidence proves my beliefs. I do, however, strongly believe that your lack of evidence for your claims invalidates them as of this moment.

Again, not my claim.

Yeah no, you're running away at this point. I'm not continuing my conversation with you if you're going to make claims and then turn around and say they're not your claims because other people have said the same thing. That's not how this works. If that is how it worked, you shouldn't be wanting any evidence from any of us regarding NASA and other space agencies.
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2023, 08:52:41 AM »
Yeah no, you're running away at this point. I'm not continuing my conversation with you if you're going to make claims and then turn around and say they're not your claims because other people have said the same thing. That's not how this works. If that is how it worked, you shouldn't be wanting any evidence from any of us regarding NASA and other space agencies.

I'm running away... :D Ok, if it makes you happy.

How is FE my claim? Surely all civilizations from the past knew that the Earth is not an absurd spinning ball revolving around the Sun - to insist that it is my claim or somebody else's claim is asanine. Fundamentally, FE is about saying that the Earth is not that, contrary to the (absurd) claim that it is. Even now with modern science, you can't come to any conclusion other than the Earth is not that if you really do your research with your CBBI (cognitive bias brain implant) removed. So you're dang right that I don't want you to provide "evidence" of your belief that NASA doesn't fake stuff, because I know for a fact that they do. I looked at a bunch of that "evidence" already. And I'm saying "evidence" in quotation marks because it's like saying that a picture of a pink elephant wtih wings is evidence of a pink elephant with wings. One of two possibilites: The elephant got painted pink and they glued some wings on, OR the elephant is photoshopped af.

So, you believing that CGI is real is completely irrelevant.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2023, 10:11:31 AM »
Yeah no, you're running away at this point. I'm not continuing my conversation with you
Everette, this is not an airport. You do not need  to announce your departure from the conversation. You also don't need to post a complete copy of every post you're replying to.

Please avoid posting large amounts of content which do not contribute to the topic at hand. Some examples would be:
  • Unnecessary and unabridged use of the quote function.
  • "Oh, if X is your argument, don't been bother" (posted with absolutely no other content)
  • Your post above

Please familiarise yourself with the forum rules.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

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Offline Everette Graham

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2023, 11:10:11 AM »
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
You also don't need to post a complete copy of every post you're replying to.

I believe I've only done that once within this whole thread. My dearest apologies.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
Please familiarise yourself with the forum rules.

If this is all of the resources I have regarding the rules, I'm not sure which rules I've broken.

Again, my apologies for any mistakes I've made. I will work on it.
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

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Offline Everette Graham

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2023, 11:33:44 AM »
Quote from: Dual1ty
How is FE my claim?

As I explained previously, although others have made the claim in the past, it doesn't make the claim any less yours if you still make the claim.

Quote from: Dual1ty
Surely all civilizations from the past knew that the Earth is not an absurd spinning ball revolving around the Sun - to insist that it is my claim or somebody else's claim is asanine.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

Quote from: Dual1ty
Even now with modern science, you can't come to any conclusion other than the Earth is not that.

Modern science has gotten us images such as this:



Quote from: Dual1ty
So you're dang right that I don't want you to provide "evidence" of your belief that NASA doesn't fake stuff, because I know for a fact that they do.

I will remember this. Don't let yourself forget.  ;)
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2023, 02:02:08 PM »
Quote from: Dual1ty
How is FE my claim?

As I explained previously, although others have made the claim in the past, it doesn't make the claim any less yours if you still make the claim.

If you say so.

There's a difference between a subjective claim and an objective claim.

Example of objective claim: "We live on a pear-shaped spinning Earth."
Example of subjective claim: "I'm hearing voices in my head."

But ironically, the people claiming they hear voices in their heads is actually more scientific than the pear-shaped spinning Earth.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
Surely all civilizations from the past knew that the Earth is not an absurd spinning ball revolving around the Sun - to insist that it is my claim or somebody else's claim is asanine.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

Oh, so you admit it's about credibility (belief) and not about science or fact. :D

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
Even now with modern science, you can't come to any conclusion other than the Earth is not that.

Modern science has gotten us images such as this:


Yes, I already know that images are the best "proofsie" that the globe believer has. Here's an image of Superman flying:



I took that picture myself and it's 100% real, I swear on everything.

Quote from: Everette Graham
Quote from: Dual1ty
So you're dang right that I don't want you to provide "evidence" of your belief that NASA doesn't fake stuff, because I know for a fact that they do.

I will remember this. Don't let yourself forget.  ;)

Seems like you already forgot since you're already providing an image from NASA.gov and assuming it's real.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2023, 02:15:22 PM by Dual1ty »

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Offline AATW

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2023, 09:18:58 AM »
LOL. If truth exists independently of beliefs, how is there not a difference between believing and knowing other than subjective certainty? See?
No, I don't see.
Of course truth exists independently of belief. I mean, let's take the shape of the Earth. The Earth is a physical object, yes? It has a shape. That shape doesn't depend on your belief about it, or mine, or anyone else's.

If the earth is flat then it is flat whatever you or I believe. If it's a globe then it's a globe whatever you or I believe.
It can't be flat for you because you believe it to be and a globe for me because I believe it to be.
If you believe it's flat and I believe it's a globe then there are only two possibilities:

1) One of us is wrong
2) Both or us are wrong (it could be a cube).

We cannot both be correct because we believe contradictory things. The truth of the matter is absolute and it is independent of our beliefs about it.

The only semantic difference between these three sentences:
"I think the earth is a globe"
"I believe the earth is a globe"
"I know the earth is a globe"

Is the level of certainty you're expressing. A lot of people "know" that Aled Jones sang Walking In The Air in The Snowman (he didn't) or that Vikings had horns on their helmets (they didn't). Saying you "know" something doesn't make you correct, you're just saying you're certain about something. You can be certain and wrong at the same time.

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There is a difference between blind belief and evidence based belief, but evidence based belief is the reason that innocent people get convicted of crimes they didn't commit, all the time. That's what you're supporting.
It's not merely that I'm supporting it. It's the only game in town.
The only way to come to a belief about pretty much anything is by assessing the evidence. What else is there?
You simultaneously demand proof - I see you're doing it in another thread here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=20002.msg280628#msg280628
While in this thread you're accepting that that proof cannot exist.

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Of course I'm incredulous of anything NASA produces. That's actually a compliment. Thank you.
It's neither a compliment nor an insult. If you blindly believe everything you're told by an authority then that's foolish.
But if you blindly disbelieve everything you're told by an authority then that's equally foolish.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Dual1ty

Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2023, 09:54:56 AM »
LOL. If truth exists independently of beliefs, how is there not a difference between believing and knowing other than subjective certainty? See?
No, I don't see.
Of course truth exists independently of belief. I mean, let's take the shape of the Earth. The Earth is a physical object, yes? It has a shape. That shape doesn't depend on your belief about it, or mine, or anyone else's.

If the earth is flat then it is flat whatever you or I believe. If it's a globe then it's a globe whatever you or I believe.
It can't be flat for you because you believe it to be and a globe for me because I believe it to be.
If you believe it's flat and I believe it's a globe then there are only two possibilities:

1) One of us is wrong
2) Both or us are wrong (it could be a cube).

We cannot both be correct because we believe contradictory things. The truth of the matter is absolute and it is independent of our beliefs about it.

Correct, it can't be a globe and flat at the same time. I suppose it has a shape, but flat is not a shape - it's about the surface. As far as I'm concerned, FE fundamentally is about KNOWING that there's no curvature, and therefore no globe.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
The only semantic difference between these three sentences:
"I think the earth is a globe"
"I believe the earth is a globe"
"I know the earth is a globe"

Is the level of certainty you're expressing. A lot of people "know" that Aled Jones sang Walking In The Air in The Snowman (he didn't) or that Vikings had horns on their helmets (they didn't). Saying you "know" something doesn't make you correct, you're just saying you're certain about something. You can be certain and wrong at the same time.

You don't say? Even if they express different levels of certainty, all those are subjective claims. Irrelevant to science or objective truth. A true, objective statment would be: "You can't square a circle". Or, "The Earth is not a globe.". Why? Because it can be proven. No beliefs required.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Quote from: Dual1ty
There is a difference between blind belief and evidence based belief, but evidence based belief is the reason that innocent people get convicted of crimes they didn't commit, all the time. That's what you're supporting.
It's not merely that I'm supporting it. It's the only game in town.
The only way to come to a belief about pretty much anything is by assessing the evidence. What else is there?
You simultaneously demand proof - I see you're doing it in another thread here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=20002.msg280628#msg280628
While in this thread you're accepting that that proof cannot exist.

That's the point. For you globe believers to realize there's no proof for your beliefs and that's why they are and will remain beliefs. Starting with your belief in curvature that isn't there.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Quote from: Dual1ty
Of course I'm incredulous of anything NASA produces. That's actually a compliment. Thank you.
It's neither a compliment nor an insult. If you blindly believe everything you're told by an authority then that's foolish.
But if you blindly disbelieve everything you're told by an authority then that's equally foolish.

Oh, that's okay - even if you didn't mean it as a compliment I took it as a compliment because it is in fact not equally foolish. Disbelieving is my bread and butter. 8)

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Offline AATW

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Re: New Photos of Moon suggest Flat Earth?
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2023, 01:24:21 PM »
A true, objective statement would be: "You can't square a circle". Or, "The Earth is not a globe.". Why? Because it can be proven.
Those are both statements which have an absolute truth value. But there is a difference.
The first of those statements is couched in the language of mathematics where things are clearly defined. So yes, that statement is true because the definitions of "square" and "circle" are contradictory.
The second of those statements cannot be proven. Many would say that the fact that the earth is a globe has been proven and yet here we are in the 21st century with some people claiming the reverse.

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That's the point. For you globe believers to realize there's no proof for your beliefs and that's why they are and will remain beliefs.
For the second time in this thread you are on the verge of an epiphany. All you need to do now is understand that if the statement
"The earth is a globe" cannot be proven to the standard you require, and can only be based on evidence. Then clearly the same can be said of "The earth is not a globe".
One could argue that the known distances between places proves that the earth has to be a globe, because there's only one shape those places can be mapped on, given the known distances, which works. And it ain't flat. But of course FE denies that, usually by disputing that the distances are known. And this is the problem. Any position can be rejected or defended depending on which evidence you decide to accept or reject.

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Starting with your belief in curvature that isn't there.
I'm not clear what this means. No-one sensible claims that curvature can be discerned from "normal" altitudes, and I include commercial airplane travel in that.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 02:30:40 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"