Offline Tontogary

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Another “Proof” needs examination, and looking at in the context of being a “proof”

EnaG describes his version of what happens here;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za48.htm

However it is telling that his personal observations are from the Uk only, and he has had “Reliable friends” tell him what happens in the Southern Hemisphere.! It appears second and third hand accounts at best to describe what is the most important part of the chapter, as most of what he says in the northern hemisphere is not in dispute, however it is only in the Southern Hemisphere that the theory of the flat earth falls apart.

So vehement is he in his conclusions that he completely rejects any notion of dissent, or observations that do not agree with his third hand accounts.
Hardly a Zetetic approach is it!?

“4th--The southern region of the earth is not central, but circumferential; and therefore there is no southern pole, no south pole star, and no southern circumpolar constellations; all statements to the contrary are doubtful, inconsistent with known facts, and therefore not admissible as evidence.


Anyway in another thread I have been describing what I have observed, myself, personally, over the last week or so, whilst travelling from the northern hemisphere, past the equator to the southern.

I will copy them in my next post, and you can read for yourself if my description contradicts EnaG, which you will most likely see that it does.

In that case it will be seen that the earth CANNOT be plane, and can ONLY be a globe.

If there are any observers here who are able to contradict my statements, either through their own observations, or even by recognised peer reviewed work  I would love to hear from you.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Examination of EnaG Chapter XIV, Motion of Stars North and South
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 05:01:37 AM »
On 14th April I wrote of my observations on 13th April

“Last night i went out onto the bridge wing (part of the bridge of a ship) and looked for Polaris.

Our latitude was about 12 degrees North, and although cloudy i did manage to see it, although as there was no moon, i could not get a sextant altitude of it, as there was no real horizon to be able to use as a reference, but it was about where it was supposed to be ie, 10 to 15 degrees above the horizon.”

On 14th April again i wrote of my observations that evening

“I have just been out on the bridge wing again, its turned into a lovely evening, new moon this evening, so no or little light pollution, and only a very few scattered clouds low on the horizon.

We are about 6 1/2 degrees North, and heading generally south, so Polaris was seen behind us, around the correct altitude, but again as there is no horizon with no moon, (well not clear enough for an accurate sextant altitude) the best i could do was around 06 degrees 15 minutes of altitude. With dip, etc that works out about right, but not good enough for navigation.

Ursa Major is very helpful to us for pinpointing Polaris as the last two point to Polaris. If you dont know what i am saying, there are hundreds of images available. A line from Merak to Dubhe will always point to Polaris.

Right now Ursa Major is above Polaris where we are at around 120E long, so anyone can check my facts if they wish, but the point i am making is that i know how far approximately from Dubhe Polaris is, and we will be on about the equator by this time tomorrow, and i doubt i will see Polaris so low, as it will be right on the horizon, but i will be able to see Ursa Major, and will know exactly where to look for Polaris. Weather and clouds permitting of course.

Purely for illustration only, follow this link, and the 4th picture down will show you what i see from here with reference to Polaris being below Ursa Major,

http://astrobob.areavoices.com/2015/05/06/ursa-major-makes-a-daytime-appearance-in-duluth/

At present it is just after 13:00 GMT, and my facts and observations can be checked by anyone who has a knowledge of the stars.

The constellation of Orion is setting to the west, and Sirius was still visible, we have a destination that is around 16 degrees south, so i will be able to keep an eye out and if i see Polaris i will certainly let you know!

One other observation i need to make is that if the stars revolve around Polaris, which i dont dispute, even though Polaris is not perfectly aligned I’ve geographic pole, then why does the southern constellations revolve around a point where a southern star would be positioned? There is no southern Polaris star, at least not bright enough for sailors to use effectively, but it is clearly seen from the southern constellations, and stars such as A centuri that there is a southern axis to the stars, and yet the constellations where the southern and northern stars meet is seamless?

No grinding, or displacement. The stars that have a low declination ie that would pass overhead at the equator, rise in the east, set in the west, and keep their relative positions in the heavens.”

On the 16th April I wrote of my observations made on 15th April PM (LT)

“So last night there were some clouds in the sky when i observed Ursa Major, and following it to find Polaris as described earlier, gues what, NO POLARIS.

Hardly surprising as the ships latitude was just below the equator, and close to the horizon is not the best place to see a relatively dim star. (Second magnitude)

However as we are still heading southwards ahead of us shining brightly was the southern cross, which is the constellation of Crux.
This was approx 30 degrees above the horizon. The star at the bottom of the long axis is Acrux, and the top Gacrux. They point to a place in the heavens where a South Pole star should be.

They were aligned approx like the hour hand of a clock would be at about 11 o’clock, ie a line drawn from Gacrus to Acrux made a 30 degree angle to the vertical.
This was at about 21:00 Local time.

I have attached a picture, taken from the net, but it is what the constellation looked approximately like at 9PM

Also of note were that Orion was in the west, almost due west, libra and Scorpio were low in the east, and Leo was high above.

I was also on the bridge at about 03:00 this morning for an unrelated matter, however i also observed the same constellation, Crux to have rotated as though on the axis of where Gacrux to Acrux met the horizon and was now making an angle of approx 2 o’clock to the horizon.

The axis was around about the horizon, and had rotated approx 90 degrees in 6 hours.
Also it appeared that Orion had set, Leo was low on the horizon, and Scorpio etc were high above us.

So to summarise the stars that were east of us had risen in a constant direction, and were still in the same relative positions without distortions to each other to be above us, however the southern constellations had rotated around an axis that was near to the horizon, however were not distorted, and still at the same distances, and angular measurement from each other, but had rotated through about 90 degrees.

The stars that were directly east of us had risen by a similar amount, ie 90 degrees.

Just what one would expect if one were looking at the inside of a gigantic sphere. (What we call a celestial sphere.)

Can an FE model replicate what i have seen, observed and measured over the last few days? I would be absolutely thrilled to hear if is can be explained!”

Then this morning, i wrote of my observations on the evening of 17th April,

“Last night I went to the bridge to observe Ursa Major again, and it was a fantastic evening, hardly a cloud in the sky, no light pollution, and no moon. Perfect for seeing stars, Planets and, yes satellites!

The vessel was around 11 degrees south at the time.

Ursa Major was lower in the sky, with Merak and Dubhe pointing almost directly north, but closer to the horizon, and it was clear that Polaris was well below the horizon, taking the distance from Merak and Dubhe and extanding it to where Polaris should be, meant that Polaris was in fact below the horizon.

Also what was seen was that Crux (southern cross)  was higher in the sky than previously, and taken through the night it was clear that while not yet visible at these latitudes, if we were to keep steaming further south then it would be circumpolar (always visible above the horizon) if the sun was not shining. In fact this is the testimony of many thousands, if not millions of people who i live in the latitudes below 30S. (Or there abouts)

Stars were still rising in the east, setting in the west, and passing more or less overhead, but it was seen that some of the stars with a more northerly declination passed further north in their path. Antares was above the horizon to the ENE, and still rising.

All of the above leads me firmly to the conclusion that;
1, Polaris cannot be seen above the horizon when south of the equator, as seen and recorded above.
2, the stars are as described on a celestial sphere, which rotates around us, or us inside, rotating as inside a sphere.

Nothing else can produce the effects I have described, and I have seen in a week or so of travelling from northern to hemisphere that the axis of rotation in the north is approx around Polaris (not disputed by FE theory as far as i know) and that the second axis is about 3 degrees south of Dubhe, and that the position of the stars in between are not distorted relative to each other as they traverse overhead from east to west.”

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Examination of EnaG Chapter XIV, Motion of Stars North and South
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 01:42:33 AM »
Plenty of views but no replies. Surely someone must have seen what is described in EnaG?

Last night, (18th April) i was looking out at the stars for an hour, again beautiful evening. We were about 16 degrees south latitude.

Crux is getting higher in the sky, and during the hour i spent watching, had definitely changed its angle on the long axis.
Antares was rising in the east, and Orion setting in the west, with Sirius, Procyon, pollus casteor and Capella all well visible above the horizon.
Ursa Major was visible, but Dubhe, the northernmost of that constellation was not far above the horizon, maybe 10 degrees or so, and clearly pointed to Polaris being below the horizon.
Antares having a similar declination to the ship was rising almost due east, climbed high in the sky, and was seen passing close to the zenith in the early hours.

Below is taken from EnaG

“If the Southern Cross is a circumpolar cluster of stars, it is a matter of absolute certainty that it could never be in-visible to navigators upon or south of the equator. It would always be seen far above the horizon, just as the "Great Bear" is at all times visible upon and north of the equator. More especially ought it to be at all times visible when the nearest star belonging to it is considerably nearer to the so-called "pole star of the south" than is the nearest of the stars in the "Great Bear" to the pole star of the north. Humboldt did not see the Southern Cross until he was in the 16th latitude south.”

The above statement is plainly and demonstrably false.

Looking at the declination of Dubhe, the northern most star in Ursa Major, it has a declination of almost 62N, and Acrux the southernmost of the southern cross is 63S, so 1 degree of declination does not make it “considerably nearer”, and yet it is entirely possible that in 6 months time when the the LHA of Acrux is 180 degrees different, that it will be below the horizon at night until an observer is below 27 degrees south latitude. During the day it will be high in the sky, but not normally visible.

The tables for declination of stars are easily available if anyone wants to check my figures.

The same is true for the northern stars. For an observer in October or November below 28 degrees North latitude, Dubhe will be below the horizon as it passes the meridian beyond the pole star.

My observations, even in 16 degrees latitude are different from the hypothetical assumptions put forward in EnaG that it brings his observations into serious question, in fact he didnt make any observations in the southern latitudes, as he only says he made observations in the places listed in the UK “and other places” none of which he mentions!

I submit then that the whole chapter be disregarded.

The Wiki does not explain what happens either, so it is of no help.

Any FE want to debate the above? With the absence of any takers, I think flat earth is pretty much debunked here using Zetetic principles, ie observe, and experiment, and use your senses to tell you what is happening!




Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: Examination of EnaG Chapter XIV, Motion of Stars North and South
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 01:28:54 PM »
I have mentioned a few times here that the FE theory works so long as you are willing to ignore that there are people who are your equals living in places you do not live.  The moon turns on its journey to face only you and your fellow countrymen.  I have also said many times here that if Rowbotham had been born in Christchurch, the sun would orbit a south pole and the wall of ice would be in the north.

Re: Examination of EnaG Chapter XIV, Motion of Stars North and South
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 01:18:41 AM »
The night sky in Ecuador is pretty clear as well - there is a north pole and a south pole. In order for there to be more than one south pole (as some flat earth models suggest) you would be able to find a location on earth from which to observe very different star motion. Such star motion is not observed, so only one south pole is supported by the evidence.

http://sguisard.astrosurf.com/Pagim/From_pole_to_pole.html


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Examination of EnaG Chapter XIV, Motion of Stars North and South
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2018, 01:40:44 AM »
I am discussing the South Pole Stars in this thread here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9457.0

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Examination of EnaG Chapter XIV, Motion of Stars North and South
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 02:06:46 AM »
I am discussing the South Pole Stars in this thread here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9457.0

Which does not really explain my observations, and if you thought it did, why start another thread to answer this one?
Surely it should be posted here, where the original observations are posted.

A cynic might believe the reason for starting another thread is to derail this one where the answers are too hard?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 02:22:03 PM by Tontogary »

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.