[AATW]

All maps are already flat.

Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?

Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.

There doesn't seem to be any agreed map of the flat earth which fits with observations and can explain things like flight times.
Tom said that the distance from Paris to New York was unknown which is a pretty ludicrous statement given that airlines reliably get between the two places on a daily basis. They obviously know where they are in relation with each other and how far apart they are (the conversation then got into crazy arguments about whether planes know how fast they are flying).
Any map of the earth is a projection from a globe to a rectangle, this is why Greenland is all squished and doesn't look as big as it really is.
If the earth were flat you wouldn't need to do that, maps could show countries as they are.
So the question as to how after hundreds of years of cartography this hasn't been done remains.

[sleepybadger]

All maps are already flat.

Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?

Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.

Actually maps have a number of purposes.

They show features of geography.

They show the extent of territory and political entities.

They allow you to navigate.

They therefore need to be accurate - otherwise, for example, planes would run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.

More importantly they tell us a lot about the shape of the earth. It's not possible to accurately project the surface of a 3D object onto a 2D plane. There will inevitably be distortion.

Similarly it's not possible to accurately project a 2D image onto a 3D surface. Imagine wrapping a ball with a bit of paper - it crumples up and distorts the image.

But - it is absolutely possible to project a 2D surface onto another 2D surface without any distortion.

So, why can't FE proponents come up with an accurate map of what the flat earth looks like? Why has this never been achieved even accidentally in all the years humans have been mapping our planet?

How do you know it has not been done?

Has it? Can you show me the map? If it has why hasn't the map been publicised? The Flat Earth Society should be all over it, as it would provide definitive proof.

However, the FE wiki indicates there is no accurate map - it talks about a "generally accepted model" and provides a map which is "proposed, but certainly not definitive".

But if you can show me otherwise I would be very interested in seeing it.

[StinkyOne]

Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate?  Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.

Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you have a map or not. Round Earth maps work perfectly, so I understand part of the reason there is no push to create an accurate FE map. My point, as it relates to the OP, is that there is seems to be a lack of initiative to actually put your money where your mouth is, and that is VERY telling.

[inquisitive]

Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate?  Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.

Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you have a map or not. Round Earth maps work perfectly, so I understand part of the reason there is no push to create an accurate FE map. My point, as it relates to the OP, is that there is seems to be a lack of initiative to actually put your money where your mouth is, and that is VERY telling.

And, more importantly, how 'they' would go about producing a map.  It's about 'them' producing a more accurate map or shape model than we have now.  'We' note 'they' have not said why 'they' think WGS-84 is incorrect or, as 'they' would say, 'mistaken'.

[douglips]

In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?

For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?

Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.

I thought we agreed that latitude and longitude were real things? I linked you to Captain Cook's logbook and several 19th century manuals for how to measure them.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7524.msg131917#msg131917

It's clear that you can translate latitude and longitude to nautical miles based on a simple formula. You need to make your flat earth maps work with latitude and longitude, not ignore them.

This is all fact, not speculation.

Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.

Literally every aircraft that flies and every ship that sails exercises these maps. Literally every single pilot and ships captain has put up instead of shutting up.

The research has already been done in centuries past.

Cartography is not magic - you can go out and measure miles just by using the odometer in your car.

[Fouroclock]

Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.

[Tumeni]

Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.

...and that tells us .... what, exactly?

[inquisitive]

Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.

No, it's a logo.

[HorstFue]

I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.

Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.

[Frocious]

I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.

Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.

This is a good question once you can get past the poor English. It would indeed be much, much easier to show a map of a 2D (or flat) earth compared with projecting a globe onto a 2D surface. I would imagine some FE folks will find a way to disagree with that statement no matter how difficult it will be -- but in the off chance one of you would actually like to give it some thought it would be nice to know why you think cartographers would go through all of this trouble.

[wRadion]

Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.

Good luck doing an actual 3D representation (not projection or perspective drawing) on a 2D flag.

The methods that have been proposed to us all assume that the spherical coordinates in RET are true.

So how do you explain the fact that there are methods for RET and not FET?

[Frocious]

The methods that have been proposed to us all assume that the spherical coordinates in RET are true.

So how do you explain the fact that there are methods for RET and not FET?

And again, to be clear: It would be objectively easier to create a map of a flat, two-dimensional space when compared to projecting a 3-dimensional globe on to a two-dimensional map.

Why are RETers so far ahead when it comes to cartography?

[Tom Bishop]

I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.

Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.

For over 300 years California was depicted in maps as an island off of the coast of the United States.

How can you appeal to the centuries-long authority of cartographers?

[AATW]

Once again you're attempting to derail the thread. I don't think the idea that maps have got better and more accurate over time and older maps have more inaccuracies is controversial.
The point being made is all modern maps of the earth are projections because a globe has to be mapped onto a rectangle. There is no way of doing this without some distortion.
A true flat earth map wouldn't need to do this if the earth really were flat. So why do modern cartographers persist with these projections? Because the earth isn't flat.
And why can't you lot get your act together and produce a flat earth map which actually matches observations? Because it isn't possible.

[Tumeni]

For over 300 years California was depicted in maps as an island off of the coast of the United States.

Yes, for precisely the reason stated in the article you linked to. It had not been explored and mapped.

[Frocious]

I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.

Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.

For over 300 years California was depicted in maps as an island off of the coast of the United States.

How can you appeal to the centuries-long authority of cartographers?

"Around the year 1500 California made its appearance as a fictional island, blessed with an abundance of gold and populated by black, Amazon-like women, whose trained griffins dined on surplus males,"

Yes, folks sure knew a lot about California back in the day.

That aside, consider this: They clearly didn't know the exact configuration of the area, but they still knew how to find it.

That alone contributed infinitely more to cartography than FET has, considering FET has (by your own admission) contributed absolutely nothing to the mapping of the world.

Let's get back to the topic at hand, though: The question you haven't answered. It would be objectively easier to create a map of a flat world when compared to projecting a globe onto a 2d surface. Why, then,  have cartographers always made it so difficult for themselves?

[gotham]

The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.

The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.

[inquisitive]

The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.

The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.

What new mapping project?  Where is WGS-84 incorrect?

Please explain 'incorrect presentation'.

[juner]

The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.

The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.

Good to see you drop by, gotham.

[gotham]

The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.

The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.

Good to see you drop by, gotham.

Thanks junker!  Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.