LoveScience

Transparent Moon... really?
« on: December 10, 2018, 08:39:48 PM »
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In the transparent moon accounts various stars have been seen to occult (pass in front of) the moon. This is completely impossible in the Round Earth model. Such observations remain a mystery to this very day

Lunar occultations are a common event where the Moon moves between the Earth and a background star or planet which is in the same line of sight. I have often seen these myself and occultations of Saturn or Jupiter are especially fascinating to watch. Sometime a star or planet just grazes the limb of the Moon in which case you can see the star or planet passing between the undulating surface of the Moon. 

The only thing that can ever pass in front of the Moon are satellites and there are a LOT of images of the ISS passing in silhouette across the disk of the Moon (and the Sun).  Takes less than a second and this is known as a transit event rather than an occulation.

If we look further out we can also observe occultations and transits of the satellites of Jupiter. Again I have seen many of these myself over the years.  Just before and just after opposition you can even see the shadow of the transiting satellite on the disk of Jupiter. These are called not surprisingly, shadow transits.

The idea of a transparent Moon on the other hand is interesting but completely wrong.  Another FE Wiki special!

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=moon+saturn+grazing+occultation&FORM=HDRSC2


Regarding the quote contained in the link featured in the same Wiki page


"During a partial solar eclipse the sun's outline has many times been seen through the body of the moon" …. Someone has got something very wrong there.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:44:54 PM by LoveScience »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 08:48:21 PM »
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Someone has got something very wrong there.

Read the sources linked. It was was traditional astronomers who were claiming to see stars occulting the moon.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Transparency

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In Earth Not a Globe a semi-transparent moon is suggested based on astronomical observations. While a semi-transparent moon is no longer supported by the current incarnation of the Flat Earth Society, it is important to keep compiled evidence of such phenomena for posterity.

In the transparent moon accounts various stars have been seen to occult (pass in front of) the moon. This is completely impossible in the Round Earth model. Such observations remain a mystery to this very day. It has been suggested that the moon is semi-transparent. However, an alternate explanation for these observations might be that the moon is not semi-transparent and some (but not all) of the stars are simply below the altitude of the moon, therefore able to pass in front of it. This is possible in the Flat Earth models where the sun, moon, and stars are all at similar altitudes.

See the chapter on Moon Transparency in Earth Not a Globe: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za63.htm

More on Moon Transparency: http://books.google.com/books?id=s1tEN8zza6gC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=%22transparent+moon%22+stars&source=web&ots=T7Aj41j1CH&sig=icm_LQkaSyK-I-_gxpadvXBSSBM#PPA86,M1

Unfortunately the second link seems to be dead now, but there was discussion of these observations there as well.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:55:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

LoveScience

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 08:52:26 PM »
They might well have been seeing stars Tom but they were definitely not occulting the Moon. At least not the type of stars I am talking about. A little bit of common sense should tell you that surely!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 08:56:03 PM »
Another observation here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FHEYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA389#v=onepage&q&f=false



It is not us claiming these observations. This is what astronomers have reported.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:58:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

LoveScience

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 09:00:19 PM »
Interesting read Tom.  So the star remained visible for about 2 seconds after it apparently made contact with the lunar limb and then disappeared. What does that tell you?   The average duration of a lunar occultation by the way is a lot longer than 2 seconds in case you didn't know.


Fascinating book by the way...

Here is another link about exactly what I am talking about.

https://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~barnes/ASTR110L_F03/lunaroccultation.html
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 09:10:19 PM by LoveScience »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 10:13:09 PM »
I don't believe it was stated that it happens to all stars.

The Royal Astronomical Society reports this event:



Jupiter reported to occult the moon:



Even Nature has mentions of the stars in front of the moon:



The above article is talking about how it is curious that Jupiter's moon sometimes pass in front of Jupiter when it should be going behind it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:22:14 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 10:33:50 PM »
Here's an amazing one:


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Offline stack

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 10:39:32 PM »
I don't believe it was stated that it happens to all stars.

The Royal Astronomical Society reports this event:



Jupiter reported to occult the moon:



Even Nature has mentions of the stars in front of the moon:



Above article is talking about how it is curious that Jupiter's moon sometimes pass in front of Jupiter.

As far as the lunar occultations mentioned, aren't they referring to a grazing occultation:


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 10:43:32 PM »
That is interesting. However, it is stated that it does not happen every time.

Here is an observation:



Perhaps a plane?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 11:09:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2018, 11:06:09 PM »
Tough call. I have no idea.

I guess logically, if the moon were translucent, we would see stars shining through it all of the time.

LoveScience

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2018, 11:37:08 PM »
Yes Tom, the satellites of Jupiter (Io, Ganymede, Callisto and Europa) do pass in front of Jupiter.  I mentioned about transits and shadow transits. These are a well documented phenomenon and you can find predictions of their occurrence in many astronomical journals.  These are possible because the satellites are much smaller than Jupiter and so appear star like through telescopes.  Against the disk of Jupiter they can appear like pale dots with a dark shadow either following them or preceding them during a shadow transit.

What cannot happen, for what I would hope are obvious reasons to you, is  a star being visible through the Moon.  You can post as many extracts from as many books as you wish (preferably more recently than the mid 19th century).  All are subjective to what the observer perceived at the time and I can tell you now that a lot of observational accounts from the 19th century and earlier are not entirely accurate down to the relatively poor quality of optics that was available then. Galileo for example saw that there was something unusual about Saturn when he observed it through his telescopes but he could not tell that he was seeing rings around the planet.


When the Moon is a cresent you very often see the outline of the full Moon very faintly illuminated.  You have probably noticed it yourself. We call it Earthshine because it is due to sunlight reflected off the Earth onto the part of the Moons surface which is in darkness. Since the Moon is moving east with respect to the stars, when the Moon is at waxing cresent phase just after new Moon, you will see the star disappear behind the dark part of the Moons disk. If it happens to be a grazing occultation with initial disappearance on the dark side of the Moons disk, as the star pops in and out of ravenes and valleys against an invisible or nearly invisible limb, it may well give the impression that the star is actually shining through the Moon. That occured to me in the first extract you posted.


As for the videos posted, the first shows a very typical gazing occultation which is not uncommon for Aldebaran.  As for the second one.  No idea what the blinking white spec is.  Probably a small internal reflection going on somewhere in the optical system.  It definitely isn't a star though.   I didn't think FES took much notice of videos/photos anyway for the reasons stated in the evidence page.  For an experienced observer it is quite easy to tell which ones have been faked and which are genuine.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 11:55:28 PM by LoveScience »

Max_Almond

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 09:46:58 AM »
Perhaps a plane?

Good call. I think you're spot on with that one Tom. :)

LoveScience

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 10:57:31 AM »
The low resolution of the video makes it hard to see clearly.  I can only see a flickering while dot which would suggest not a plane.  Also unless moving towards or away from the camera a plane would be moving quicker.  Same would apply to a satellite which is why a lens flare/internal reflection is more likely in my opinion.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2018, 08:31:54 PM »
I would guess that it's most likely an object that passed in front of the moon and being reflected off the sun.  The sky really doesn't seem dark enough for a single star to be seen through a semi-transparent moon yet no other stars anywhere else in the sky.
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Max_Almond

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2018, 07:01:03 AM »
The low resolution of the video makes it hard to see clearly.  I can only see a flickering white dot which would suggest not a plane.  Also unless moving towards or away from the camera a plane would be moving quicker.

Planes have blinking lights. And there's no reason why it couldn't be moving towards or away from the camera.

I think Tom's right with this one. :)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2018, 07:17:42 AM »
Here are some more interesting planes. Runtime 1m30s:

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:51:51 AM by Tom Bishop »

Max_Almond

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 09:48:11 AM »
That is interesting!

I suppose it would be pretty easy to identify which stars they are? I.e., when the moon moves out of the way, the stars will still be there, right?

And are we 100% sure that his images haven't been faked?

I wonder how transparent moon believers explain the lack of sunlight coming through it during a solar eclipse?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 10:32:02 AM by Max_Almond »

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2018, 05:37:38 PM »
I wonder how transparent moon believers explain the lack of sunlight coming through it during a solar eclipse?
I'm no transparent moon believer (mark me down as a transparent moon agnostic) but many Flat Earthers believe that solar eclipses are caused by a black disc (known as Rahu in Ancient Indian astronomy) passing in front of the sun.


Max_Almond

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2018, 08:15:08 PM »
Yep. It's written in the Vedas. They also believe the moon is actually way bigger than the sun, and much, much further away.

That you can take pictures during a solar eclipse and confirm that it is indeed the moon that's blocking the sun doesn't seem to hold much weight with them.

Apparently scriptures trump their own eyes, if you can believe that.

Entertaining discussion about it here: https://krishna.org/astronomy-debunked-solar-eclipses-are-not-caused-by-the-moon/

Re: Transparent Moon... really?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2018, 12:20:53 AM »

That you can take pictures during a solar eclipse and confirm that it is indeed the moon that's blocking the sun doesn't seem to hold much weight with them.

How so?  The two explanations for solar eclipses would look identical as long as Rahu is presumed to have the same angular size as the moon.