Offline ShowmetheProof

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Why is TFE the right model?
« on: January 19, 2018, 06:12:00 PM »
The question I have is why.  Why would you believe in FE over RE?  For FE NASA and scientists need to have lied to us and we need to use an unknown source of energy instead of gravity, while in RE, none of that nonsense needs to happen.  Why so desperate to cling to a more complex theory with less proof and say we've been lied to?  Why do you think FE must be right?

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Offline supaluminus

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2018, 06:55:47 PM »
The question I have is why.  Why would you believe in FE over RE?  For FE NASA and scientists need to have lied to us and we need to use an unknown source of energy instead of gravity, while in RE, none of that nonsense needs to happen.  Why so desperate to cling to a more complex theory with less proof and say we've been lied to?  Why do you think FE must be right?

Because people think that just because science is difficult to understand, it negates Occam's razor.

For the earth to be flat, there are SO MANY THINGS you have to account for in order to explain what doesn't comport with reality, primarily the mathematics that go into PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING we do on the globe earth. Do you know how many engineers would LOVE to be able to do their planning using a FLAT PLANE instead of a curved surface? Odds are, if you do know, you're not a flat earther.

Yet, because it's "simpler" to look at the horizon and say to yourself, "Welp, it looks flat. Must be flat," flat earthers completely misunderstand what Occam's razor means by "simplicity."

Like I just said, for the earth to be flat, there are SO MANY OTHER COMPLICATIONS that you have to account for in order for such a model to be consistent with the real world. To date, NO flat earth model has managed to do this, and I submit to this community that the REASON for this is because NO SUCH MODEL CAN EXIST. Such a model would not be consistent with what we can test and confirm in reality, and so any and EVERY model so far has fallen "flat" in one respect or another - usually several at once.

That's the short-long answer for you, for my part.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 06:57:31 PM by supaluminus »
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

... or he will cease being honest.

 - a loyal slave to reason and doubt

JohnAdams1145

Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2018, 08:43:02 PM »
It's because many Flat Earthers trust only their eyes (they place too much emphasis on the face value of what they see with their eyes) and do not reason about their observations, preferring to take the "simple" route of taking their observations at face value, and discounting more esoteric ones like the Coriolis Effect, Foucault pendulums, the amount of IR radiation reaching the poles, conservation of energy, slight discrepancies in triangles on the Earth, variation of gravity with latitude consistent with a spinning Earth, nuclear fusion, the stars around us, GPS, inertial navigation systems, satellites, and countless other reasons that have been beat to death.

The primary problem is that if a sphere is large enough, any "small" (on the order of a few miles) section of it is very close to flat. This means that the observations that differentiate FE from RE are also very subtle and hard to see unassisted, and need rigorous experiments to prove. It's very hard to see them with eyes if you can invoke "distortion" or "perspective" to discount very small deviations from what would be expected on a flat Earth. If one also has misconceptions about basic physics, then it's easy to come to the wrong conclusions.

Because none of the observations mentioned above affect us in a direct, tangible way, it's hard for people to take them seriously. I believe that this is the reason "Zeteticism" rose out of the scientific method; because people couldn't understand the reasoning and processes behind a lot of scientific observations, they thought that modern science had departed from the core of the scientific method -- observation, hypothesis, experiment, revise hypothesis, experiment further -- by using theories, that while verified to death, seem very unintuitive.

I'll illustrate with one irrefutable observation given by Round Earthers and show how Flat Earth people can muddy the waters enough (and not in bad faith, but to themselves as well) to discount the observation.
RE: If the Earth were flat, you could see the Burj Khalifa from Kansas.
FE: No, because of (1) refraction/particulates in the air that blocks the light or (2) perspective. The first is enough to convince people who don't know why refraction happens (actually, I'll admit that I don't know much about why it happens) or how to calculate refraction on a basic level (Snell's Law), but then one realizes that if refraction is based on the optical density (dependent on many factors, including temperature) of air, there's no reason for it to go only one way. If in certain conditions you can't see the Burj Khalifa because of refraction, then it should also go the other way and you should see more of it. Now to address perspective: to the naked eye, it appears that objects "merge" with the horizon, just as the perspective hypothesis predicts that they will. However, if one takes a telescope/binoculars to view the object, then it's obvious that the object is actually disappearing under the horizon. But it's very hard to reconcile this with the intuitive observation that this is due to perspective.

Do you see how easy it is to come up with and abuse the misconceptions about geometry/physics? How long of an explanation is required to debunk the hypothesis? To someone uneducated in the sheer complexity of modern engineering and physics, it seems far easier to just assert that the explanation is false than to accept that the intuitive observation is false. But when one ponders the issue for a long time, as scientists have done for centuries, one realizes there is no way to reconcile the FE hypothesis with certain observations and There is no reason to discredit the provided explanation for the intuitive flatness of the Earth.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:53:03 PM by JohnAdams1145 »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 11:14:20 AM »
It is an interesting question and one of the reasons I started looking here. It fascinates me that some people still believe this.

There are some people who are just very ignorant of science and take an "I don't understand it so it can't be true" approach. The scale of the universe is genuinely mind-blowing, the skill and expertise to successfully launch people or objects into orbit, let alone to the moon, is too. So I guess some people just refuse to believe it all. But technology HAS done amazing things, who knew that we'd be able to talk to our phones these days and they'd be able to answer our questions (more or less, but that technology is getting better and better). My dad had a schoolfriend who ended up moving to Australia. When I was a kid we used to make a call to him at Christmas and I remember it being this big family event "Wow, we're calling Australia!". Now you can have a video call with someone there for free.

Then there are people who take a (in my view misguided) religious angle - they believe the Bible teaches a flat earth with a dome over it. I don't agree although I can see how some verses could be read that way. My take on that is that I don't believe The Bible should be read or understood scientifically. What is the important of message of early Genesis? Is it exactly when the universe was made and how, or why and by who? I'd say the latter is the important bit, leave the mechanics of it all to the scientists.

A related question is why people keep believing it when they are shown to be wrong. For that you have to look at things like Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance. There's a fair bit of that going on. Some people have staked their reputation on FE and it's very hard for people who have done that to admit they were mistaken. I read a good book called "Black Box Thinking" which dealt with this a lot. In the book it talks about when DNA testing started to come in and some people who were behind bars got exonerated based on the new evidence. The book gives several stories of how prosecutors who had staked their reputation on obtaining convictions of those people did all kinds of mental contortions to try and explain away the DNA evidence. It's a phenomenon we are all susceptible to, I don't think some people on here realise how much they are doing it. But it is telling how some people d o all kinds of logical back flips during debates and then simply walk away from debates when they are proved to be wrong.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 07:02:59 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:07:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 07:07:06 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

That is the only reason why this website exists.
Tom. I showed you wrong about perspective and shadows, I did an experiment and everything and posted photos. You completely ignored it.
There are plenty of photos showing the earth as a globe from multiple space agencies, you just shout "FAKE!" at everything which shows you to be wrong or you ignore it.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 07:09:48 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

That is the only reason why this website exists.
Tom. I showed you wrong about perspective and shadows, I did an experiment and everything and posted photos. You completely ignored it.
There are plenty of photos showing the earth as a globe from multiple space agencies, you just shout "FAKE!" at everything which shows you to be wrong or you ignore it.

If you want a response start a thread then. After I answer a thread my energy is spent. I'm probably not going to continue to engage with ten different people in ten different conversations.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:11:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 07:11:50 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.
Where are errors in measuring distances, path of fhe sun and satellite tv dish angles?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 07:15:05 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.
Where are errors in measuring distances, path of fhe sun and satellite tv dish angles?

See, here is an example I am going to rightfully ignore. It does not really relate to the OP or the topic we were discussing.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:17:16 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 07:18:01 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

That is the only reason why this website exists.
Tom. I showed you wrong about perspective and shadows, I did an experiment and everything and posted photos. You completely ignored it.
There are plenty of photos showing the earth as a globe from multiple space agencies, you just shout "FAKE!" at everything which shows you to be wrong or you ignore it.

If you want a response start a thread then. After I answer a thread my energy is spent. I'm probably not going to continue to engage with ten different people in ten different conversations.
I started this thread and I mentioned The Bishop Experiment

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8448.0

You didn't respond, nor did anyone else. I've mentioned my proof about underlit clouds several times meaning the sun must be physically below the level of the clouds several times. You have never responded. There has been no FE response - oh, there was one claiming reflection, implausible but a better answer than perspective.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline AATW

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 07:19:51 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.
Where are errors in measuring distances, path of fhe sun and satellite tv dish angles?

See, here is an example I am going to rightfully ignore. It does not really relate to the OP or the topic we were discussing.
Fair enough, but my experimental proof and evidence was in direct reply to you in a thread about underlit clouds. Here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6875.160
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2018, 07:44:05 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.
Where are errors in measuring distances, path of fhe sun and satellite tv dish angles?

See, here is an example I am going to rightfully ignore. It does not really relate to the OP or the topic we were discussing.
How convenient when those 3 items can be used to determine the shape of the earth.

Offline ShowmetheProof

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 01:23:02 PM »
See, here is an example I am going to rightfully ignore. It does not really relate to the OP or the topic we were discussing.
Actually, I think it does relate to this thread.  I don't think that it should be brushed away.  It is talking about you running away from the proof of the RE, one of the things that I asked about when I started this thread.

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Offline KAL_9000

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Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 07:20:32 PM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.

Tom, I think you got FET and RET mixed up...
Quote from: Tom Bishop
The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2018, 05:35:23 AM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.

There is proof. There is direct evidence. Evidence that will be accepted in any court of law on the globe. There is pictorial evidence. There is eye witness evidence. You choose to brush these evidences away with claims of "lies". "Conspiracy" "CGI" with no proof to any of those claims.

Flat earthism is a belief. Nothing more. A belief that requires you to ignore anything that threatens that belief.

Or just plain trolling online.

Re: Why is TFE the right model?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2018, 09:12:06 AM »
We have not been "shown to be wrong". It is only wrong if you preconditon certain rationalizations so much as "if this is true and if that is true then Flat Earth is impossible". No direct evidence has been presented to show that the earth is round. It is all rationalization.

The only arguments in favor of a globe we have seen involve numerous assumptions that need to be true for the conclusion to have merit. It seems impossible for you guys to provide direct evidence for a direct conclusion.

There is proof. There is direct evidence. Evidence that will be accepted in any court of law on the globe. There is pictorial evidence. There is eye witness evidence. You choose to brush these evidences away with claims of "lies". "Conspiracy" "CGI" with no proof to any of those claims.

Flat earthism is a belief. Nothing more. A belief that requires you to ignore anything that threatens that belief.

Or just plain trolling online.
Clearly Tom is trolling. The use of the words 'we' and 'burden', the strange style of writing and leaving discussions when asked for detail.