why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« on: January 12, 2018, 05:47:19 PM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?

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Offline KAL_9000

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 07:09:01 PM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?
It wouldn't.
Flat Earthers have yet to show how hiding the shape of Earth provides the government/NASA/Illuminati with any money and/or power.
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Offline supaluminus

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 07:45:54 PM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?

There isn't a single rational explanation that holds up to scrutiny.

I want to eventually address the conspiracy claims, because that's what this comes back to, but the bottom line is this...

Let's assume the following:

1) The earth is a flat, motionless plane beneath a dome.
2) There is a massive, elaborate, global (haha) conspiracy to hide the reality of the natural world from the public at large.
3) The primary deception in this conspiracy is that we are 6-foot tall, upright, bipedal, binocular space monkeys living and dying on a massive, round, oblate spheroid spinning on its axis and revolving around the sun at hundreds of thousands of kilometers per hour in an infinite void we call "space." There are of course more details, but that's the primary deception.

If we assume that all of those things are true, and we ignore investigating conspiracy claims any further (because we believe it), the first problem arises when we attempt to reconcile the flat earth model with reality, i.e. the body of observations and experiments we can gather in reality CONTRADICT the first assumption. Those observations are NOT CONSISTENT with what we should see on a flat earth model.

A SINGLE observation MIGHT appear consistent on first glance (“flat” horizon) but empiricism dictates that ALL of your observations or at least NEARLY ALL of your observations must be consistent with one another. The flat earth model doesn’t even come CLOSE to withstanding this kind of rigorous scrutiny.

Furthermore, that same body of observations is CONSISTENT with what we might perceive from within a globe model, but that isn't the point - we're not defending or supporting a positive claim for the globe earth, or attempting to "prove" anything about it, we're just making these three assumptions and challenging them for consistency.

So let's assume we're a flat earther and we believe the first assumption. When information is presented to us that contradicts the first assumption, that DOESN'T mean that we have to ALSO disregard the second and third assumption. We could instead say, "Well, that makes sense, but I still don't believe in a globe earth. The conspiracy is real, and that might not tell me that we live on a flat earth, but it does give me pause to SUSPECT the globe model."

What we end up with is something called argumentum ad ignorantiam - argument from ignorance.

Without relying on the conspiracy, all a flat earther can do when presented with the body of evidence that contradicts the first assumption is claim that we don't have enough information to PROVE a globe earth model and DISPROVE the conspiracy.

What you have to understand about this flawed reasoning is two things:

A ) Yes, the fact that most if not all of the circumstantial evidence is CONSISTENT with the globe earth model and INCONSISTENT with the flat earth model DOES lend empirical weight to the globe earth model, even if it doesn't "prove" it in the same way you might "prove" the existence of your own penis by looking down at it. To say that we don't have enough information to give us reasonable and accurate model for reality is to retreat into argumentum ad ignorantiam.

B ) You don't HAVE to disprove the conspiracy in oder to show WHY the circumstantial evidence is consistent with one model or the other. If the earth is flat, conspiracy or no, the fully scrutinized and compiled body of evidence will show that. It does not.

What you have to conclude from this if you're a flat earther is, "Well, even if I concede to the globe model, NASA/the government/science/Bill Nye the Science Guy are still lying about certain aspects of it, I just don’t know WHY."

This is again argumentum ad ignorantiam, as you are alleging that someone is lying without providing a logically consistent and reasonable motive to ascribe.

tl;dr...

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 08:07:05 PM by supaluminus »
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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 07:57:32 PM »
What you have to conclude from this if you're a flat earther is, "Well, I still don't believe the earth is a globe, even though the evidence is consistent with that, but NASA/the government/science/Bill Nye the Science Guy are still lying about SOMETHING, I just don't know WHAT or WHY."
This point I think is why the official stance of the FES IS NOT, that there's a conspiracy hiding the shape of the Earth. The conspiracy is that space travel is fake. Hence all images from space are fake, and they depict a globe because that's the popularized shape of the Earth. NASA and co. themselves don't know the Earth is actually flat. Your points still mostly apply, just want to make sure everyone is starting from the same page on what the conspiracy is actually hiding according to TFES.

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Offline supaluminus

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 08:14:03 PM »
What you have to conclude from this if you're a flat earther is, "Well, I still don't believe the earth is a globe, even though the evidence is consistent with that, but NASA/the government/science/Bill Nye the Science Guy are still lying about SOMETHING, I just don't know WHAT or WHY."
This point I think is why the official stance of the FES IS NOT, that there's a conspiracy hiding the shape of the Earth. The conspiracy is that space travel is fake. Hence all images from space are fake, and they depict a globe because that's the popularized shape of the Earth. NASA and co. themselves don't know the Earth is actually flat. Your points still mostly apply, just want to make sure everyone is starting from the same page on what the conspiracy is actually hiding according to TFES.

I defer to the same example. It seems like a moot point to even allege conspiracy and link that to the model of the earth when we can model the earth ourselves. There is a mountain of evidence - repeated here ad nauseum and largely ignored by flat earthers - consistent with the globe earth model and inconsistent with the flat earth model.

If NASA is just hiding the fact that space travel is fake, it seems to have ZERO to do with lying about the shape of the earth UNLESS you take the agnostic position of, "I have no idea WHAT the shape of the earth is, I just know space travel is fake." Which, let's be 100% clear; the first claim is subjective and susceptible to a mind in denial, and the second claim isn't true at all. You don't "know" space travel is fake, you know that you've seen some pictures and videos and interviews etc. that convinced you without first rigorously scrutinizing the information. If you had, you wouldn't be this disillusioned and confused, but you didn't.

That's the "royal" you, by the way; the "majestic plural." Not trying to point fingers at you specifically.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:16:01 AM by supaluminus »
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

... or he will cease being honest.

 - a loyal slave to reason and doubt

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 08:43:50 PM »
Have governments hidden the truth regarding any subject from the populace?

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 08:46:38 PM »
What you have to conclude from this if you're a flat earther is, "Well, I still don't believe the earth is a globe, even though the evidence is consistent with that, but NASA/the government/science/Bill Nye the Science Guy are still lying about SOMETHING, I just don't know WHAT or WHY."
This point I think is why the official stance of the FES IS NOT, that there's a conspiracy hiding the shape of the Earth. The conspiracy is that space travel is fake. Hence all images from space are fake, and they depict a globe because that's the popularized shape of the Earth. NASA and co. themselves don't know the Earth is actually flat. Your points still mostly apply, just want to make sure everyone is starting from the same page on what the conspiracy is actually hiding according to TFES.

I defer to the same example. It seems like a moot point to even allege conspiracy and link that to the model of the earth when we can model the earth ourselves. There is a mountain of evidence - repeated here ad nauseum and largely ignored by flat earthers - consistent with the globe earth model and inconsistent with the flat earth model.

If NASA is just hiding the fact that space travel is fake, it seems to have ZERO to do with lying about the shape of the earth UNLESS you take the agnostic position of, "I have no idea WHAT the earth looks like from 300 miles up, I just know space travel is fake." Which, let's be 100% clear; the first claim is subjective and susceptible to a mind in denial, and the second claim isn't true at all. You don't "know" space travel is fake, you know that you've seen some pictures and videos and interviews etc. that convinced you without first rigorously scrutinizing the information. If you had, you wouldn't be this disillusioned and confused, but you didn't.

That's the "royal" you, by the way; the "majestic plural." Not trying to point fingers at you specifically.
Oh I agree, the conspiracy bit still has some issues. I just wanted to make sure we were starting on the proper page with any refutations, as there are plenty among the FE believers who will dismiss any salient points outright for such a misstep.

I believe the whole conspiracy bit is just there to ensure no photo's from NASA et al can be used as evidence, since it firmly sets the precedent that everything they put that's 'from space' is fake. Also, always remember the place of the conspiracy within the Flat Earth Hypothesis.

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Offline supaluminus

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 08:52:24 PM »
Have governments hidden the truth regarding any subject from the populace?

Yes. They have. The question is "what, specifically?"

If your answer is "everything," sorry, you're way off.

I defer to the same example. It seems like a moot point to even allege conspiracy and link that to the model of the earth when we can model the earth ourselves. There is a mountain of evidence - repeated here ad nauseum and largely ignored by flat earthers - consistent with the globe earth model and inconsistent with the flat earth model.

If NASA is just hiding the fact that space travel is fake, it seems to have ZERO to do with lying about the shape of the earth UNLESS you take the agnostic position of, "I have no idea WHAT the earth looks like from 300 miles up, I just know space travel is fake." Which, let's be 100% clear; the first claim is subjective and susceptible to a mind in denial, and the second claim isn't true at all. You don't "know" space travel is fake, you know that you've seen some pictures and videos and interviews etc. that convinced you without first rigorously scrutinizing the information. If you had, you wouldn't be this disillusioned and confused, but you didn't.

That's the "royal" you, by the way; the "majestic plural." Not trying to point fingers at you specifically.
Oh I agree, the conspiracy bit still has some issues. I just wanted to make sure we were starting on the proper page with any refutations, as there are plenty among the FE believers who will dismiss any salient points outright for such a misstep.

I believe the whole conspiracy bit is just there to ensure no photo's from NASA et al can be used as evidence, since it firmly sets the precedent that everything they put that's 'from space' is fake. Also, always remember the place of the conspiracy within the Flat Earth Hypothesis.

That's a fair point. I don't want to foist upon anyone any assumptions about what they believe, I want to represent them fairly and accurately. Steel-manning is so much more effective than straw-manning, but it requires that your opponent isn't making you wrestle every bit of information out of them. Sometimes just getting a flat earther to explain what their model "looks like," to present a coherent hypothetical model, is like pulling teeth.

I suspect this is because they would rather WAIT for you to ascribe certain facets before they have to adopt them on their own. This way, they can later claim, "I never said that, you're straw-manning," and derail the conversation from there.

A.K.A., intellectually dishonest bullcrap.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 08:54:10 PM by supaluminus »
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

... or he will cease being honest.

 - a loyal slave to reason and doubt

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 12:56:30 AM »
Have governments hidden the truth regarding any subject from the populace?

Yes. They have. The question is "what, specifically?"
No, the question remains, "Why did they hide the truth?"

So please, keep with the topics you believe they have hidden the truth about (you do not even need to reveal to us what you believe they have hidden the truth about) and just provide the answer(s) to why they hid the truth in those instances.
If your answer is "everything," sorry, you're way off.
Nope. I am "way on," this time.

I do not think governments release lies in response to every query.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 12:59:22 AM by totallackey »

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 01:15:37 AM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
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Offline supaluminus

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 03:41:44 AM »
No, the question remains, "Why did they hide the truth?"

Actually, it's both, but first we have to agree on whether or not anything was even hidden in the first place. Hence "what, specifically," as in "what, specifically, did they allegedly lie about, and how?"

It's unreasonable to start asking questions of "why" and ascribing motive without first constructing a reasonable approximation of what, specifically, the lie was about in the first place.

In other words, if you claim that NASA lied about X because you saw Y evidence where Z appeared to happen when it shouldn't have, or when you think it shouldn't have, where Z is the whole point your argument is hinging on, we have to agree first that Z happened the way you think it did, and not rather as a result of you simply being mistaken.

The reason I'm not being specific, giving a real world example and walking you through it, is because I really don't care to get into the weeds with you about individual NASA conspiracy claims. I'm really more interested in talking about the science and the unreasonableness of the flat earth model in light of that science.

So please, keep with the topics you believe they have hidden the truth about (you do not even need to reveal to us what you believe they have hidden the truth about) and just provide the answer(s) to why they hid the truth in those instances.

I'm challenging this idea specifically because it's not a real conspiracy. As I already said, the reason I don't care to get into the weeds with you about all this conspiracy hogwash is simple:

B ) You don't HAVE to disprove the conspiracy in order to show WHY the circumstantial evidence is consistent with one model or the other. If the earth is flat, conspiracy or no, the fully scrutinized and compiled body of evidence will show that. It does not.

Moving along...

If your answer is "everything," sorry, you're way off.
Nope. I am "way on," this time.

I do not think governments release lies in response to every query.

Well thank goodness for small miracles. We agree on something.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:48:59 PM by supaluminus »
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

... or he will cease being honest.

 - a loyal slave to reason and doubt

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 01:22:05 PM »
No, the question remains, "Why did they hide the truth?"

Actually, it's both, but first we have to agree on whether or not anything was even hidden in the first place. Hence "what, specifically," as in what, specifically, did they allegedly lie about, and how?"

It's unreasonable to start asking questions of "why" and ascribing motive without first constructing a reasonable approximation of what, specifically, the lie was about in the first place.

In other words, if you claim that NASA lied about X because you saw Y evidence where Z appeared to happen when it shouldn't have, or when you think it shouldn't have, where Z is the whole point your argument is hinging on, we have to agree first that Z happened the way you think it did, and not rather as a result of you simply being mistaken.

The reason I'm not being specific, giving a real world example and walking you through it, is because I really don't care to get into the weeds with you about individual NASA conspiracy claims. I'm really more interested in talking about the science and the unreasonableness of the flat earth model in light of that science.
I am sorry but my desire is also to avoid "weeds."

So, you agree the government has hidden the truth from the populace at times.

Taking the shortcut and avoiding any "underbrush or weeds," and sticking to the shortest "path through the forest," please point to the tree named, "answer," and write the complete answer as to why the government hid the truth for just one of those instances you believe they did.

I'm challenging this idea specifically because it's not a real conspiracy.
Government, unless a sole dicatorship, is constituted of many persons.

Two or more people with knowledge of the truth and hiding the truth would be an act of conspiracy.
As I already said, the reason I don't care to get into the weeds with you about all this conspiracy hogwash is simple:

B ) You don't HAVE to disprove the conspiracy in order to show WHY the circumstantial evidence is consistent with one model or the other. If the earth is flat, conspiracy or no, the fully scrutinized and compiled body of evidence will show that. It does not.

Moving along...
This looks like weeds to me...
Well thank goodness for small miracles. We agree on something.
Yeah, I think we agree on a lot of things, sparky...

So, in your opinion, and without offering the nature of what the government specifically hid the truth about, why do governments ever hide the truth from the general populace?

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 10:08:57 PM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?

If the government said that the earth was flat, then every flat-earther would believe that the earth was round.

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 12:43:40 AM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?

If the government said that the earth was flat, then every flat-earther would believe that the earth was round.

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Offline PickYerPoison

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 03:14:12 PM »
Flat Earthers have yet to show how hiding the shape of Earth provides the government/NASA/Illuminati with any money and/or power.

I believe the idea is that by only pretending to go to space, large amounts of money can be funneled into space pursuits, and then a fraction can be used to fake it and the rest goes into the pockets of the people on top.
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Offline jayjay

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 11:07:53 PM »
Flat Earthers have yet to show how hiding the shape of Earth provides the government/NASA/Illuminati with any money and/or power.

I believe the idea is that by only pretending to go to space, large amounts of money can be funneled into space pursuits, and then a fraction can be used to fake it and the rest goes into the pockets of the people on top.

NASA is .5% of the overall US budget. Why such a complicated scheme to get such a small amount of money?

And how does NASA split the profits with Japan, Russia, etc.?

And how do the hundreds of thousands of scientists, manufacturers and support personnel all maintain this lie?

Too many questions for it to be as simple as you say, it requires a lot more than just "they are in it for the money".

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 02:13:56 PM »
I hear it a lot but I just don't understand, why would the government want to hide the truth from us?
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
I read it and it makes no sense.
There are many other space agencies. Do you think they fake it as well? What about countries which don't have diplomatic relations?
NASA isn't the only one you know.

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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2018, 03:53:57 PM »
Flat Earthers have yet to show how hiding the shape of Earth provides the government/NASA/Illuminati with any money and/or power.

I believe the idea is that by only pretending to go to space, large amounts of money can be funneled into space pursuits, and then a fraction can be used to fake it and the rest goes into the pockets of the people on top.

NASA is .5% of the overall US budget. Why such a complicated scheme to get such a small amount of money?

And how does NASA split the profits with Japan, Russia, etc.?

And how do the hundreds of thousands of scientists, manufacturers and support personnel all maintain this lie?

Too many questions for it to be as simple as you say, it requires a lot more than just "they are in it for the money".

This.

I consistently see Flat Earthers reference huge sums of money ($19 billion/year!!!; 52 million/day!!!1!), and claim that NASA keeps all of this money. What they fail to consider is the costs of the conspiracy. First, NASA spends much of its money on private/public contractors. These include Lockheed, Boeing, ESA, SpaceX, ULA, Aerojet Rocketdyne, etc. Billions are given to these companies to manufacture NASA's parts, and pay salaries. And, continuing with salaries, NASA needs to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to pay their own employees. NASA needs to pay for rocket fuel, to launch the rockets, maintain the facilities they use, fund research and development, pay for satellites, and so much more. The accusation that NASA could keep any of that money is ridiculous.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2018, 06:27:09 PM »
Its because its not flat

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Re: why would the government want to hide it if the earth was flat?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2018, 09:15:16 PM »
Its because its not flat

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