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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« on: July 28, 2018, 04:06:09 PM »
I'd like to split a discussion off from this other thread since it's quite the tangent from that original topic.

JRowe has a unique version of a flat earth model that he's dubbed Dual Earth Theory. I first became aware of this when he introduced an alternative theory for explaining the phases of the moon in another discussion topic. There we wrangled over whether or not we see the same "face" of the moon as it goes through it's lunar phase cycle.

In the Dual Earth Model, the moon (like all celestial bodies) is a "star," emanating its own light rather than reflecting it. It is like a rocky canister, encapsulating molten metal that acts akin to a spotlight:



It rotates as it circles the sun, projecting an image of the lit "face" of the moon on a dome over the twin flat hemiplanes of earth. It is this rotation, and not the relative positions of the  sun and moon and the angle on which the sunlight is reflected off the moon's surface that is responsible for the observation of the moon's phases from earth. Something like this:



Quote from DET Overview:
Quote
The moon is the final such entity. The same basic principles hold [as for the sun], though it doesn't exist in the center. Instead, it rotates around the Sun, as well as on its own [axis][/i]: hence the phases. As it rotates, it will have its image projected by the same flow of aether, to the top and bottom [/i][hemiplanes][/i]. Sometimes this will be a full moon, and sometimes less of the face will be visible. Common belief is that the same face of the moon faces us at all times. this is an optical illusion: any notable features will still be visible on the tilted moon, so we will certainly observe some similarities. The moon is too far away for us to say anything more. [/i]

This DET claim was challenged in the Full Moon Impossible topic when several members presented images of a moon exhibiting what is known as "earthshine," like:




And with time lapse image of the moon going through its phases:


Using Stellarium (equatorial mount, earth rendered invisible, atmosphere removed), I captured a similar sequence of images of the moon's predicted image over the next month, starting with last night's full moon:


The above is from a simulation, and the animated image directly preceding is claimed to have been from the NASA Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) satellite. As such, both might be rejected if presented as contrary evidence to the DET claim due to skepticism or disparagement of the sources.

So I propose a direct observation of the moon over the next 28 days (or as many of those days as the moon is visible), capturing images of the moon to see if the terminator of the moon does, in fact, sweep over a non-rotating face or if the moon rotates as stated by DET, the phases of the moon are the result of rotation of a spotlight. I will take it upon myself to capture images from my vantage point (San Diego), but I welcome the participation of others. Care should be taken to get enough detail and get the right exposure to capture the moon's surface detail so that we can determine if the face is rotating away/toward the earth or always facing the earth.

Any "earthshine" images showing moon features in shadow (or alternatively, where the rocky encasement theorized by DET should be), would be a bonus.






« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 04:13:59 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 04:10:31 PM »
Are you looking to explore the moonshramp theory? Because this is where this debate leads about 20 posts from now ... just so you know.
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 04:38:14 PM »
Are you looking to explore the moonshramp theory? Because this is where this debate leads about 20 posts from now ... just so you know.

Oh, come on... that has GOT to be an April Fool, up there with the Beeb's "Spaghetti harvest" ....

Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 04:54:02 PM »
The papers and webs are full of pictures of yesterday's blood moon.

How does this fit in with DE theory?

https://imgur.com/gallery/HfB5N9F, or

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlvoOxIlxLL/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=sz1hhcgi7n1e

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 04:59:54 PM »
I think this is really for JRowe to answer. I'm not sure who else has adopted his model firmly enough to defend it

I want to take this seriously. There's a lot of thought and work put into the DET model which I think should be honored. I don't want to believe it's an elaborate gag. I am not persuaded by it, but want to challenge it honestly and not with derision.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 05:56:33 PM »
...I propose a direct observation of the moon over the next 28 days (or as many of those days as the moon is visible), capturing images of the moon to see if the terminator of the moon does, in fact, sweep over a non-rotating face or if the moon rotates as stated by DET, the phases of the moon are the result of rotation of a spotlight. I will take it upon myself to capture images from my vantage point (San Diego), but I welcome the participation of others. Care should be taken to get enough detail and get the right exposure to capture the moon's surface detail so that we can determine if the face is rotating away/toward the earth or always facing the earth.

Forgot I was going to do this, and missed checking out last night's moon.

But here are a couple I found online: one taken from Seattle prior to midnight Friday night (99.8% illuminated) and one from Osaka 7-8 hours later (Saturday night in Japan; 99.5%):


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Offline JRowe

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2018, 12:19:54 AM »
The papers and webs are full of pictures of yesterday's blood moon.

How does this fit in with DE theory?

https://imgur.com/gallery/HfB5N9F, or

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlvoOxIlxLL/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=sz1hhcgi7n1e
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10135.msg161018#msg161018
The same as the last time you asked that. Why do you constantly spam this forum with your incessant demands that I repeat myself? If you are never going to actually read posts or read the thread, you should not pretend like you are actually interested.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2018, 12:29:54 AM »
Firstly, the stellarium is likely accurate; it's software meant to predict a repeating, predictable occurence.
My main issue was with the 'earthshine' claim, I've never seen the moon like that and on the days where it's been clear at sunset I've looked to see if I'd spot it, and I never have. I've no idea where they come from, but if that one's meant to come from space I suspect it's just more of the same as the globe Earth photos, images of what they'd expect to see.

My biggest issue with the stellarium would be how the transitions are put together. As we wnet over in the last thread, if you compare the features of the full and crescent moon there are a lot of differences; I'm aware you don't agree, but I have to stand by the varying features.
However, the full and gibbous (for example) would appear much more similar because there's been a much more slight change in angle. As such it's easy to stitch each frame together in a continuous transition, what you see does only change slightly, and then you have total free range with the gaps.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 06:00:13 AM »
My biggest issue with the stellarium would be how the transitions are put together. As we wnet over in the last thread, if you compare the features of the full and crescent moon there are a lot of differences; I'm aware you don't agree, but I have to stand by the varying features.

Well, other posters put together illustrations of what they saw as the matching features, but all you do is say "They don't match" in words.

How about you illustrate what you see as the discontinuities?  Show two pictures, and illustrate to everyone what you see as a feature in one picture, but not in the other?

Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 06:03:06 AM »
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10135.msg161018#msg161018
The same as the last time you asked that. Why do you constantly spam this forum with your incessant demands that I repeat myself? If you are never going to actually read posts or read the thread, you should not pretend like you are actually interested.

Didn't see that reply, as it was tacked on, almost as an afterthought, to  three  separate quotes from, and replies to, Bobby S. Not spam.

Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2018, 06:22:37 AM »
Firstly, the stellarium is likely accurate; it's software meant to predict a repeating, predictable occurence.
My main issue was with the 'earthshine' claim, I've never seen the moon like that and on the days where it's been clear at sunset I've looked to see if I'd spot it, and I never have. I've no idea where they come from, but if that one's meant to come from space I suspect it's just more of the same as the globe Earth photos, images of what they'd expect to see.

... and I would suggest that if more photographers took more photos, they would match what is expected.

You do realise that most all of the photos of Earthshine are achieved by increasing photographic exposure, don't you ...? Not by looking with the naked eye? Examples;

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/42458/how-can-i-capture-earthshine

https://www.space.com/31047-how-to-photograph-moon-telescope.html

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/52043/how-do-i-capture-the-moon-and-its-surrounding-context
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 06:31:13 AM by Ofcourseitsnotflat »

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2018, 02:18:15 PM »
My biggest issue with the stellarium would be how the transitions are put together. As we wnet over in the last thread, if you compare the features of the full and crescent moon there are a lot of differences; I'm aware you don't agree, but I have to stand by the varying features.

Well, other posters put together illustrations of what they saw as the matching features, but all you do is say "They don't match" in words.

How about you illustrate what you see as the discontinuities?  Show two pictures, and illustrate to everyone what you see as a feature in one picture, but not in the other?
I did. For god's sake will you stop LYING TO MY FACE. I am sick to death of you constantly demanding I repeat myself. If you are NEVER GOING TO READ A THREAD THEN STOP POSTING.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10135.msg161018#msg161018
The same as the last time you asked that. Why do you constantly spam this forum with your incessant demands that I repeat myself? If you are never going to actually read posts or read the thread, you should not pretend like you are actually interested.

Didn't see that reply, as it was tacked on, almost as an afterthought, to  three  separate quotes from, and replies to, Bobby S. Not spam.
Oh no, how dare I expect you to at least skim the thread you were involved in to look for people quoting you.

My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 03:07:41 PM »
Firstly, the stellarium is likely accurate; it's software meant to predict a repeating, predictable occurence.
Would you find it acceptable to rely on Stellarium's depiction of the moon as a substitute for actual photo observations? That would make this a whole lot more convenient, considering that I missed another photo opportunity last night. And we wouldn't have to wait. I could have a sequence of images posted today for inspection, looking for any rotating movement of the moon's face.

My biggest issue with the stellarium would be how the transitions are put together.
I don't know about "transitions" but I just want to capture stills of the moon at one point each night from full (this past Friday) to new and back to full if needed so we can look for features and see what we can see.

 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:14:13 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2018, 03:09:10 PM »
My biggest issue with the stellarium would be how the transitions are put together. As we wnet over in the last thread, if you compare the features of the full and crescent moon there are a lot of differences; I'm aware you don't agree, but I have to stand by the varying features.

Well, other posters put together illustrations of what they saw as the matching features, but all you do is say "They don't match" in words.

How about you illustrate what you see as the discontinuities?  Show two pictures, and illustrate to everyone what you see as a feature in one picture, but not in the other?
I did. For god's sake will you stop LYING TO MY FACE. I am sick to death of you constantly demanding I repeat myself. If you are NEVER GOING TO READ A THREAD THEN STOP POSTING.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10135.msg161018#msg161018
The same as the last time you asked that. Why do you constantly spam this forum with your incessant demands that I repeat myself? If you are never going to actually read posts or read the thread, you should not pretend like you are actually interested.

Didn't see that reply, as it was tacked on, almost as an afterthought, to  three  separate quotes from, and replies to, Bobby S. Not spam.
Oh no, how dare I expect you to at least skim the thread you were involved in to look for people quoting you.

I see you use the same tactics here are you do on your own forum.  Shout down anyone that tries to talk?   I tried to read a few threads but your attitude gets tedious very quickly.
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2018, 07:23:48 PM »
As we [went] over in the last thread, if you compare the features of the full and crescent moon there are a lot of differences; I'm aware you don't agree, but I have to stand by the varying features.

However, the full and gibbous (for example) would appear much more similar because there's been a much more slight change in angle. As such it's easy to stitch each frame together in a continuous transition, what you see does only change slightly, and then you have total free range with the gaps.
Edit yet again:

Here's the earlier spotlight/lamp 3D model of the DET moon, from full to crescent:


Here's the current full-to-waning gibbous moon, per Stellarium:



This is 1 day of full moon and 5 days waning gibbous; about a third of the way to the next full moon.
I'll post the 8/3-8/8 gibbous-to-crescent shortly.

Edit: here they are:


Edit 2: and for reference, note Sea of Crisis on the right for orientation at full moon phase, and the Grimaldi crater on the far left - to the left of the Sea of Storms - that remains in view all the way to crescent.




« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:27:29 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2018, 07:56:28 PM »
As we went over in the last thread, if you compare the features of the full and crescent moon there are a lot of differences; I'm aware you don't agree, but I have to stand by the varying features.

Well, other posters put together illustrations of what they saw as the matching features, but all you do is say "They don't match" in words.

How about you illustrate what you see as the discontinuities?  Show two pictures, and illustrate to everyone what you see as a feature in one picture, but not in the other?

I did. For god's sake will you stop LYING TO MY FACE.

Reply #42 and thereabouts of this thread - https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10056.40

More than one REer posts comparison photos of the Moon and identifies the matching features. You say "identifying and connecting features that do not exist on the crescent, and are only visible because you overlaid the two. "  and   "At best two of those lines are shared", without specifying which two.

You provided no illustrations of your own, only cropped versions of other posters' illustrations, most of which are out of context and unclear as a result. This was pointed out to you there. 

I even posted my own comparison on page 5, but by that time you were getting more and more indignant.

The rest of my post above is two questions, posed as suggestions. They cannot, by definition, be "lies".

You said "I am perfectly capable of carrying on a calm conversation" elsewhere. 

Let's see you do it.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2018, 08:01:28 PM »
Jrowe;

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10056.60

Please see replies #78 & #79.

Are you seriously claiming that the features I've indicated are NOT the same between the almost-full and crescent moon?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2018, 08:01:34 AM »
I do detect a difference between what I captured and what Stellarium projects:



Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2018, 08:42:01 AM »
I do detect a difference between what I captured and what Stellarium projects:


The tilt angle looks slightly off. Is that what you mean?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Dual Earth Theory - The Moon
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2018, 09:16:43 AM »
No. I mean there's more area illuminated in my photo. The terminator appears further along in Stellarium.

The tilt of the terminator is off because I tilted both my photo and the screencap from Stellarium to try to keep the orientation of all of the images close to the same. At 12:30 local the moon was still ascending, so the moon was tilted CCW. I just rotated both images, mimicking an equatorial mount, but I eye-balled it and didn't get them exactly the same.

I had quite a brilliant moon in real life. Stellarium, even with the atmosphere filter turned off, is duller. But looking along the terminator line, less of my moon is "in shadow." (Shadow in 'quotes' since it's still a claim Jrowe hasn't conceded.)