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Offline xasop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #200 on: July 10, 2015, 03:02:02 AM »
Does your mother have business telling you that you cannot have sexual relations with your family dog?

Irrelevant. My mother is not the government.

However, as I am over the age of 18, the answer is also no.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #201 on: July 10, 2015, 03:13:19 AM »
I suppose if you are going to imagine that dogs are consenting to sex, then there is not much point to this parable since it won't compare to the world we actually live in.

Sure it does. This has nothing to do with laws or legal ability to consent or anything. Your mom is in charge of you, is responsible for you, cares about you, and says that you can't have sex with the dog, no matter how much you two might want it, which would hold even if you were over the age of 18. Laws have nothing to do with it. It is absolutely her business if her child is having sex with the family dog.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #202 on: July 10, 2015, 03:19:56 AM »

Irrelevant. My mother is not the government.

However, as I am over the age of 18, the answer is also no.

"I'm over the age of 18 mom, I can have sex with the dog if I want!"

Do you really think that will help your case or somehow convince her that she is no longer in charge or responsible for you?

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #203 on: July 10, 2015, 03:26:10 AM »

Irrelevant. My mother is not the government.

However, as I am over the age of 18, the answer is also no.

"I'm over the age of 18 mom, I can have sex with the dog if I want!"

Do you really think that will help your case or somehow convince her that she is no longer in charge or responsible for you?

Yes it does help your case because she is neither in charge nor responsible for you. If she is deluding herself in to thinking otherwise, then she is the one with the problem.

I suppose if you are going to imagine that dogs are consenting to sex, then there is not much point to this parable since it won't compare to the world we actually live in.

Sure it does. This has nothing to do with laws or legal ability to consent or anything. Your mom is in charge of you, is responsible for you, cares about you, and says that you can't have sex with the dog, no matter how much you two might want it, which would hold even if you were over the age of 18. Laws have nothing to do with it. It is absolutely her business if her child is having sex with the family dog.

More of the same, your mom is -not- in charge of you once you are 18. If it is her dog then she of course has a right to intervene and she may feel obligated to intervene because the dog cannot consent, but she has no inherent authority because she is your Mom.

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Offline xasop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #204 on: July 10, 2015, 03:34:47 AM »
"I'm over the age of 18 mom, I can have sex with the dog if I want!"

Do you really think that will help your case or somehow convince her that she is no longer in charge or responsible for you?

Again irrelevant, because my mother is not the government. But since you asked:

Yes it does help your case because she is neither in charge nor responsible for you. If she is deluding herself in to thinking otherwise, then she is the one with the problem.
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Offline juner

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #205 on: July 10, 2015, 04:37:39 AM »
Animals can't consent to sex.  Neither can children.

You can't seriously be this gullible, junker Saddam.

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Offline beardo

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #206 on: July 10, 2015, 05:02:01 AM »
What if the dog mounts you? Has the dog consented?
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #207 on: July 10, 2015, 08:00:13 AM »
If the dog is sentient enough to consent to inter-species hank-panky (I'm picturing Brian from Family Guy) then go for it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #208 on: July 10, 2015, 11:55:11 AM »
Perhaps this calls fot a test then. Parsifal will have sex with a dog and his mother will catch him in the act. He will say "but mooom, I'm over the age of 18 now and I can have sex with a dog if I want." We will see how far that gets him.

The simple truth of the matter is that laws regarding the ability to consent or your age has nothing to do with it. Your mom does not take charge of the household and of her children because a law told her to do it. If there were no written laws, she would still be in charge.

In fact, using those laws as the basis of the argument is the exact opposite of the spirit that the government has no business in our personal lives. Parsifal is arguing over his mom's rights over her children or his right to animal sex based on laws handed down by a a democratic government. Support of those laws as justification for what his mom does or does not have a right to or what he can and cant have consentual sex with are pro arguments that the government has business in our personal lives, when the exact opposite was to be argued.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 12:34:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline xasop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #209 on: July 10, 2015, 12:18:20 PM »
Perhaps this calls fot a test then. Parsifal will have sex with a dog and his mother will catch him in the act. He will say "but mooom, I'm over the age of 18 now and I can have sex with a dog if I want." We will see how far that gets him.

What exactly is this going to prove? Don't make me point out the irrelevance regarding my mother not being the government again.

The simple truth of the matter is that laws regarding the ability to consent or your age has nothing to do with it.

No shit. This entire discussion is about what should be legal, and so far the only person who has based any claims on what is currently legal is you with your circular "democracy is good because it exists" argument.

Your mom does not take charge of the household and of her children because a law told her to do it. If there were no written laws, she would still be in charge.

I don't live in the same household as my mother, so her taking control of this household would be quite bizarre indeed. If your argument is founded on the presumption that she is in charge of a household I live in, then yes, she has the right to say whether I can or cannot have sex with a dog in her household, just as a landlord would have the same right in a rented house. It has nothing to do with her being my mother.

In fact, arguing age of consent, ability of animal consent, and age of adulthood laws is the exact opposite of the spirit that the government has no business in our personal lives. Support lf those laws are pro argument that the government has business in our personal lives, when the exact opposite was to be argued.

I didn't raise any of those arguments. I only said that my mother has no business telling me I can't fuck the dog because I am over the age of 18, where that point is relatively uncontested. If I were under the age of 18, then there would be further debate to be had.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #210 on: July 10, 2015, 12:33:37 PM »
What does the age of 18 have to do with it other than it being a law of a democratic government that we are adults beyond our parent's control at that age?

You are justifying your dog sex based on a law handed down by a government authority. Arguing in favor of that is arguing that the government does have business in our personal lives and should tell us what we can and can't do. Shameful.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 12:38:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline xasop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #211 on: July 10, 2015, 12:34:29 PM »
What does the age of 18 have to do with it other than it being a law of a democratic government that we are adults beyond our parent's control at that age?

It's generally accepted as the age of adulthood in Western society. I only brought it up as a simplification of my argument; if I were under 18, I would be making exactly the same argument, except I would have to argue for why the status quo should be changed. Since I am over 18, that matter is irrelevant.

Speaking of things that are irrelevant, my mother hasn't become any more the government since my last post, in case you were wondering.

You are justifying your dog sex based on a law handed down by a government authority. Arguing in favor of that is arguing that the government does have business in our personal lives and should tell us what we can and can't do. Shameful.

Actually, I have never had sex with a dog and would not attempt to justify it, but that isn't the question you asked. Nice straw man, though.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #212 on: July 10, 2015, 12:47:00 PM »
I never said that your mom was the government. You are using government laws as justification for what you can or can't do with your dog, or what your mom does or does not have a right to tell you, and the point was made.

You said it yourself -- the age of 18 is the status quo, what is generally accepted by society at large, also known as democracy, and that is the entire basis and justification of your argument.

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #213 on: July 10, 2015, 12:59:27 PM »
No the basis of the argument is that, as a consenting adult, which is a relative term that can have varying definitions, my mother has no authority, moral or otherwise over me.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #214 on: July 10, 2015, 01:05:46 PM »
No the basis of the argument is that, as a consenting adult, which is a relative term that can have varying definitions, my mother has no authority, moral or otherwise over me.

You cannot deny that you are using a status quo as justification for who Parsifal can and cannot have sex with, or what his mom can and cannot tell him.

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Offline xasop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #215 on: July 10, 2015, 01:07:24 PM »
I never said that your mom was the government. You are using government laws as justification for what you can or can't do with your dog, or what your mom does or does not have a right to tell you, and the point was made.

No, that's not what my argument is at all. In fact, my primary response to your question has consistently been that it is irrelevant.

You said it yourself -- the age of 18 is the status quo, what is generally accepted by society at large, also known as democracy, and that is the entire basis and justification of your argument.

I have made no argument against my mother having the right to tell me not to fuck dogs because it is irrelevant to the matter at hand. All I did was answer your question to humour you. My argument cannot have any justification if it does not exist.

Aside from being mistaken, you are also wrong, in that what is generally accepted by society at large does not necessarily align with the laws created by a democratic government, especially a representative democracy which is limited by a constitution. To suggest otherwise would be to accept that same-sex marriage is generally accepted by American society because it is now legal in the US. Which is it, Tom?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #216 on: July 10, 2015, 02:18:39 PM »
I never said that your mom was the government. You are using government laws as justification for what you can or can't do with your dog, or what your mom does or does not have a right to tell you, and the point was made.

No, that's not what my argument is at all. In fact, my primary response to your question has consistently been that it is irrelevant.

Earlier in this thread you argued that the government had no business in our personal lives and various points against democracy. It was questioned and argued that the majority has no right to dictate to the minority, particularly in our personal relationships.

When queried about whether your mother had business telling you whether you could have sex with the dog, you responded with a status quo argument that you are over 18 and your mother had no right to tell you what to do. You further argued that the age of 18 was what was generally accepted in society and so on. Further status quo arguments were made in this thread that animals cannot consent.

This is entirely antipodal to your original anti-democracy arguments that the majority had no business in our personal lives. By framing your response under the justification that the age of 18 is the generally accepted status quo, for when your mother can and cannot tell you things, the subtext is that we should have democratic authorities telling us what to do.

Quote
I have made no argument against my mother having the right to tell me not to fuck dogs because it is irrelevant to the matter at hand. All I did was answer your question to humour you. My argument cannot have any justification if it does not exist.

Aside from being mistaken, you are also wrong, in that what is generally accepted by society at large does not necessarily align with the laws created by a democratic government, especially a representative democracy which is limited by a constitution. To suggest otherwise would be to accept that same-sex marriage is generally accepted by American society because it is now legal in the US. Which is it, Tom?

"Irrelevant," "it was just humor," whatever. Status quo justifications were made and that is on you. That's it. You are through. Your arguments against the system have shown to be flaky, unsupportable, hypocritical, and you are done here.

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Offline xasop

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #217 on: July 10, 2015, 02:33:22 PM »
Earlier in this thread you argued that the government had no business in our personal lives and various points against democracy. It was questioned and argued that the majority has no right to dictate to the minority, particularly in our personal relationships.

When queried about whether your mother had business telling you whether you could have sex with the dog, you responded with a status quo argument that you are over 18 and your mother had no right to tell you what to do. You further argued that the age of 18 was what was generally accepted in society and so on. Further status quo arguments were made in this thread that animals cannot consent.

I did not use the status quo as justification for anything, only as a means to simplify my argument. I already stated this, which you've conveniently ignored:

I only brought it up as a simplification of my argument; if I were under 18, I would be making exactly the same argument, except I would have to argue for why the status quo should be changed. Since I am over 18, that matter is irrelevant.

I never once made the claim that, if I were under 18, my assertions would be untrue. If you had posed a more general question as to whether mothers in general should be able to control their children's lives, then you might have a point, but instead you inexplicably decided to focus on my mother. That makes mothers of under-18s irrelevant, and therefore a discussion of the restrictions imposed on under-18s by the government irrelevant.

If I have made one error in judgment, it was giving you fodder to pick on beside my main point. My main point is, and always has been, that my mother is irrelevant. Any further discussion should be in response to that point, please.


This is entirely antipodal to your original anti-democracy arguments that the government had no business in our personal lives. By framing your response under the justification that the age of 18 is the generally accepted status quo, for when your mother can and cannot tell you things, the subtext is that we should have democratic authorities telling us what to do.

Ignoring what I've said and repeating yourself isn't going to change my response. If you'd like to continue pretending that the status quo is the same thing as democracy, perhaps you'd care to answer this question I posed previously?

Aside from being mistaken, you are also wrong, in that what is generally accepted by society at large does not necessarily align with the laws created by a democratic government, especially a representative democracy which is limited by a constitution. To suggest otherwise would be to accept that same-sex marriage is generally accepted by American society because it is now legal in the US. Which is it, Tom?



"Irrelevant," "it was just humor," whatever.

Yes, I imagine you would have a tough job explaining how it is relevant. That's most likely why you ignored my claims of irrelevance and focused on the unimportant parts of what I said to begin with.

Status quo justifications were made and that is on you. You are through. Your arguments against the system have shown to be flaky, unsupportable, hypocritical, and you are done here.

I have to hand it to you, you've done a fantastic job of destroying arguments I haven't made. Well done, Tom.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 02:40:15 PM by Parsifal »
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #218 on: July 10, 2015, 04:25:02 PM »
I've read back through this thread, and I'm still confused how we went from discussing the legality of gay marriage to having underage sex with a sentient, consenting dog in Parsifal's Mom's house.

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Offline juner

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Re: US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gay Marriage
« Reply #219 on: July 10, 2015, 04:48:26 PM »

I've read back through this thread, and I'm still confused how we went from discussing the legality of gay marriage to having underage sex with a sentient, consenting dog in Parsifal's Mom's house.

Tom lost every other argument he tried to make in opposition to gay marriage, so he decided to take it to an unrelated extreme. Newborn children and possibly inanimate objects will be next, ideally keeping the setting of Parsifal's mom's house intact.