The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Tau on January 23, 2014, 02:35:50 AM
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It's all very well to generate publicity, but what is the media going to make of this place? What exactly has been done here to qualify this "society" as a serious contender to the old one? Tintagel is quite right when she suggests some actual work ought to be done first.
I think a nice new annotated edition of Zetetic Astronomy is a cool idea. Or maybe something relatively inexpensive, like a campaign to revamp and really flesh out the wiki, compile Flat Earth literature like Daniel did, release regular (or semi-regular) articles explaining individual aspects of FET in a detailed yet accessible fashion, or maybe addressing the latest NASA press release (NASAwatch - "we watch globularist propaganda so you don't have to"?), pointing out exactly why we know they're full of shit. I'm sure some of us would be more than happy to volunteer in any such projects. The council might even hammer out some kind of distinct manifesto, outlining the precise principles and goals of the society.
A slightly different logo and a well-run forum isn't quite enough to distinguish one organization from another. Of course, it'd be a little easier if there was some variation in the name; the "Universal Zetetic Society" would be good, lending itself to the claim of being the rightful successor to Blount, Carpenter, and Rowbotham, but it just isn't as catchy or recognizable as the "Flat Earth Society". It will have to be entirely the efforts of the members here to set this place apart.
Just moving this conversation to another thread to avoid derailing.
Just a list of ideas:
- Improving the Wiki
- Improving the FAQ
- Regularly updated Flat Earth Society Blog
- Annotated ENaG
- Official summaries/collection of Flat Earth Theory
The Council should take the lead in actually doing these things.
Once the Council is fully fleshed out in its purpose I'll write a blog post about it, and then another when the constitution is finished.
The Wiki and FAQ can be done right now. If you don't already have a account, ask Pizza for one.
Any more ideas? Also, we should start a volunteer list. If you're willing to help with any of these things, or something else entirely, let us know in this thread.
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It's all very well to generate publicity, but what is the media going to make of this place? What exactly has been done here to qualify this "society" as a serious contender to the old one? Tintagel is quite right when she suggests some actual work ought to be done first.
I think a nice new annotated edition of Zetetic Astronomy is a cool idea. Or maybe something relatively inexpensive, like a campaign to revamp and really flesh out the wiki, compile Flat Earth literature like Daniel did, release regular (or semi-regular) articles explaining individual aspects of FET in a detailed yet accessible fashion, or maybe addressing the latest NASA press release (NASAwatch - "we watch globularist propaganda so you don't have to"?), pointing out exactly why we know they're full of shit. I'm sure some of us would be more than happy to volunteer in any such projects. The council might even hammer out some kind of distinct manifesto, outlining the precise principles and goals of the society.
A slightly different logo and a well-run forum isn't quite enough to distinguish one organization from another. Of course, it'd be a little easier if there was some variation in the name; the "Universal Zetetic Society" would be good, lending itself to the claim of being the rightful successor to Blount, Carpenter, and Rowbotham, but it just isn't as catchy or recognizable as the "Flat Earth Society". It will have to be entirely the efforts of the members here to set this place apart.
Just moving this conversation to another thread to avoid derailing.
Just a list of ideas:
- Improving the Wiki
- Improving the FAQ
- Regularly updated Flat Earth Society Blog
- Annotated ENaG
- Official summaries/collection of Flat Earth Theory
The Council should take the lead in actually doing these things.
Once the Council is fully fleshed out in its purpose I'll write a blog post about it, and then another when the constitution is finished.
The Wiki and FAQ can be done right now. If you don't already have a account, ask Pizza for one.
Any more ideas? Also, we should start a volunteer list. If you're willing to help with any of these things, or something else entirely, let us know in this thread.
I volunteer as tribute.
I'm actively working on tracts/leaflets/other sort of grassroots promotional paraphernalia. I am happy to help in any other way that I can.
Here are three (tentative) tract topics to begin with:
"Do People Really Believe the Earth Is Flat?" - A sort of introduction to the society, rather than the theory. Explaining the history of the society from Rowbotham to Blount to Shenton, Johnson, and finally the modern incarnation. In short, the crux is "Yes, we do. Come learn why."
"How Does Sunrise Work on a Flat Earth?" - A short-form FAQ explaining sunrise, sunset, the primary geographical details of the two major models, and a very brief explanation of the flat earth cosmos. The call to action: "Have more questions? Come ask us."
"Sailing off the Edge - Is the Earth Really Flat?" - A sort of 'short story' following a round-earth believer's journey from amusement to incredulity to intrigue and, finally, acceptance of the truth about earth's shape. Do we have any illustrators? May be fun to make this one a comic.
Feedback is welcome, particularly from the council, as the messaging here reflects on them more so than the rest of us.
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I can't wait to see how many of you will still be around in five years.
(http://i.imgur.com/wu1VBMC.gif)
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I believe someone in the PR thread also suggested a name change to help differentiate us from the old site. I actually don't think this is a bad idea at all. As a fan of Lady Blount, Universal Zetetic Society appeals, but the lack of "Flat Earth" in the name would obfuscate purpose and render us a bit more inaccessible to an audience.
It's not a decision I'd take lightly at all, but it should maybe be discussed.
International Flat Earth Research Society lends itself to a handy acronym: InFERS
On the other hand, something as simple as "Modern Flat Earth Society" or "The New Flat Earth Society" may create enough differentiation without a drastic change.
(To be clear, I'm not trying to tread on the council's toes. I care about the FES, so when I have ideas I want to share them. The council and community may do what it will with them.)
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How about actually HAVING those podcasts that Daniel promised, but only did 4 of? I mean, look, I'm a Rounder because no one taught me different. What about having a membership & dues? I mean, hell, lets be serious! & no, I'm NOT joking. The CPUSA has 2,000 members nation-wide. That's it! But we are a full-fledged national party. Surely the FES (or whatever you want to call it) being world-wide, could do the same!
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What about having a membership & dues?
I believe the council are discussing this, actually, but before we can collect dues we'll need to appoint a treasurer and institute some by-laws, at the very least.
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I can't wait to see how many of you will still be around in five years.
(http://i.imgur.com/wu1VBMC.gif)
You better see how many in 1 year first.
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I believe someone in the PR thread also suggested a name change to help differentiate us from the old site. I actually don't think this is a bad idea at all. As a fan of Lady Blount, Universal Zetetic Society appeals, but the lack of "Flat Earth" in the name would obfuscate purpose and render us a bit more inaccessible to an audience.
It's not a decision I'd take lightly at all, but it should maybe be discussed.
International Flat Earth Research Society lends itself to a handy acronym: InFERS
On the other hand, something as simple as "Flat Earth Society" or "The New Flat Earth Society" may create enough differentiation without a drastic change.
How about "The Independent Flat Earth Society"? It manages to add further emphasis on the freedom of thought and general autonomy of the organization, while also being reminiscent of the old Independent Labour Party (the party of George Orwell) that maintained a principled separation from the Labour Party.
Simple, effective, and there's a precedent for the convention. I like it.
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Tract #1. Print and distribute.
It's laid out such that, if centered on a page (should work on A4 or US letter), you can print one copy, flip that page over along the long edge, feed it back into the printer, and print a second copy. This will give you two front-and-back prints of the tract you can cut and fold.
PDF version:
http://library.tfes.org/tract/TFES_Tract_1.pdf
Image (PNG) version:
http://library.tfes.org/tract/TFES_Tract_1.png
If anything needs to change let me know. Stay tuned, more of these are coming :)
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I believe someone in the PR thread also suggested a name change to help differentiate us from the old site. I actually don't think this is a bad idea at all. As a fan of Lady Blount, Universal Zetetic Society appeals, but the lack of "Flat Earth" in the name would obfuscate purpose and render us a bit more inaccessible to an audience.
It's not a decision I'd take lightly at all, but it should maybe be discussed.
International Flat Earth Research Society lends itself to a handy acronym: InFERS
On the other hand, something as simple as "Flat Earth Society" or "The New Flat Earth Society" may create enough differentiation without a drastic change.
How about "The Independent Flat Earth Society"? It manages to add further emphasis on the freedom of thought and general autonomy of the organization, while also being reminiscent of the old Independent Labour Party (the party of George Orwell) that maintained a principled separation from the Labour Party.
Is there any more discussion around this idea? Before more promotional materials happen it'd be good to know if we want to change the name or not. :)
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I think a name change for its own sake might be a bad idea. At the very least, it would have to be approved by the council. If you guys want to nominate a name change I'll make a thread about it in the ZC board, but I promise nothing.
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I think a name change for its own sake might be a bad idea. At the very least, it would have to be approved by the council. If you guys want to nominate a name change I'll make a thread about it in the ZC board, but I promise nothing.
Oh certainly it's a council decision. Just trying to keep cogs turning before we lose momentum, is all :)
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I think a name change for its own sake might be a bad idea.
How about an name change in order to avoid confusion between this FES, Daniel's FES and the Alaska.net FES?
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I think a name change for its own sake might be a bad idea.
How about an name change in order to avoid confusion between this FES, Daniel's FES and the Alaska.net FES?
I do agree that something to differentiate us from the other organizations named The Flat Earth Society will help eliminate confusion in that regard.
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
Whereas the Flat Earth Society is a basic forum where newcomers go for basic discussion, the Flat Earth Academy of Sciences is where they go when they graduate. It is a place for higher level debate, and provides a venue for its members to publish research, organize projects, and speak with other Flat Earthers.
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
Whereas the Flat Earth Society is a basic forum where newcomers go for basic discussion, the Flat Earth Academy of Sciences is where they go when they graduate. It is a place for higher level debate, and provides a venue for its members to publish research, organize projects, and speak with other Flat Earthers.
Wow, that's a pretty sweeping change. Not that I disagree, we do have the superior minds (certain trolls notwithstanding). Would probably warrant a total revamp of our forum to reflect the more serious focus, but that's not a bad thing. I'm not a council member but for whatever my opinion's worth, I like this line of thinking.
Re: the name, Flat Earth Academy of Terrestrial Sciences has a lovely acronym in FEATS. I tend to look for acronyms. :)
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For what it's worth, Tom's idea is brilliant. An idea: Daniel did 4 podcasts, & promised more. I listened to them, even saved them to my hard drive. They were interesting, but off topic. Perhaps we could offer things like that. I know I spend a lot of time in the Lower Fora lately, but I'm going to come back topside for a bit. This idea of taking the FES more seriously seems a good one to me. If we could do what Tom is suggesting, offer on-topic podcasts, publish literature, & so-forth, we could really bust some heads!
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
How about: The Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Arts and Sciences
Then again, having "science" in the name might be a bit misleading or confusing because of the philosophical differences between science and zeteticism.
Whereas the Flat Earth Society is a basic forum where newcomers go for basic discussion, the Flat Earth Academy of Sciences is where they go when they graduate. It is a place for higher level debate, and provides a venue for its members to publish research, organize projects, and speak with other Flat Earthers.
You aren't trying to push your diploma mill again, are you Tom?
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
How about: The Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Arts and Sciences
Then again, having "science" in the name might be a bit misleading or confusing because of the philosophical differences between science and zeteticism.
I believe James used to call himself a Zetetic Scientist. If he of all people is okay with it, it's probably alright. "The Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Sciences" might be better, though. After all, what exactly is a zetetic art?
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After all, what exactly is a zetetic art?
Art that proceeds by inquiry. Art that makes you think. Something like a picture that demonstrates bendy light or perspective that allows the sun to appear to set below a flat earth horizon. You certainly can't accurately depict a flat earth with traditional art.
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After all, what exactly is a zetetic art?
Art that proceeds by inquiry. Art that makes you think. Something like a picture that demonstrates bendy light or perspective that allows the sun to appear to set below a flat earth horizon. You certainly can't accurately depict a flat earth with traditional art.
Why Markjo, you almost sound sarcastic.
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
How about: The Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Arts and Sciences
Then again, having "science" in the name might be a bit misleading or confusing because of the philosophical differences between science and zeteticism.
I believe James used to call himself a Zetetic Scientist. If he of all people is okay with it, it's probably alright. "The Flat Earth Academy of Arts and Zetetic Sciences" might decrease confusion in that regard, though. After all, what exactly is a zetetic art?
Getting a little wordy. "Flat Earth Academy" by itself rolls nicely off the tongue. We can certainly add a tagline referencing Zetetic thought, and that can be wordier, but the proper name should probably be short-and-sweet.
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
How about: The Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Arts and Sciences
Then again, having "science" in the name might be a bit misleading or confusing because of the philosophical differences between science and zeteticism.
I believe James used to call himself a Zetetic Scientist. If he of all people is okay with it, it's probably alright. "The Flat Earth Academy of Arts and Zetetic Sciences" might decrease confusion in that regard, though. After all, what exactly is a zetetic art?
Getting a little wordy. "Flat Earth Academy" by itself rolls nicely off the tongue. We can certainly add a tagline referencing Zetetic thought, and that can be wordier, but the proper name should probably be short-and-sweet.
I agree. I see little point in adding art. This is not an art school. That said, zeteticism ought to make it into the name. Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Sciences seems fine to me.
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Idea: The Flat Earth Academy of Sciences
A Think Tank dedicated to the advancement of earth science and the Zetetic Philosophy. As a sister organization to the Flat Earth Society the academy collects, organizes, and publishes scientific material pertaining to the movement.
How about: The Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Arts and Sciences
Then again, having "science" in the name might be a bit misleading or confusing because of the philosophical differences between science and zeteticism.
I believe James used to call himself a Zetetic Scientist. If he of all people is okay with it, it's probably alright. "The Flat Earth Academy of Arts and Zetetic Sciences" might decrease confusion in that regard, though. After all, what exactly is a zetetic art?
Getting a little wordy. "Flat Earth Academy" by itself rolls nicely off the tongue. We can certainly add a tagline referencing Zetetic thought, and that can be wordier, but the proper name should probably be short-and-sweet.
I agree. I see little point in adding art. This is not an art school. That said, zeteticism ought to make it into the name. Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Sciences seems fine to me.
Nicely done, I like it.
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Why Markjo, you almost sound sarcastic.
Almost?
I agree. I see little point in adding art. This is not an art school. That said, zeteticism ought to make it into the name. Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Sciences seems fine to me.
Well, this really isn't a school of any sort, so the word "academy" doesn't seem to fit. How about: " The New Zetetic Society of Arts and/or Sciences" as the formal name and "The Zetetic Society" as the casual name.
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I wouldn't be opposed to shifting focus to zeteticism in general. All this flat earth stuff scares noobs away.
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Why Markjo, you almost sound sarcastic.
Almost?
I agree. I see little point in adding art. This is not an art school. That said, zeteticism ought to make it into the name. Flat Earth Academy of Zetetic Sciences seems fine to me.
Well, this really isn't a school of any sort, so the word "academy" doesn't seem to fit. How about: " The New Zetetic Society of Arts and/or Sciences" as the formal name and "The Zetetic Society" as the casual name.
The term "Flat Earth" needs to be in there, otherwise people will have no idea what we're about. Also, "Academy" doesn't specifically mean "school:"
An academy (Attic Greek: Ἀκαδήμεια; Koine Greek Ἀκαδημία) is an institution of higher learning, research, or honorary membership.
I think we fit those last two pretty well.
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I wouldn't be opposed to shifting focus to zeteticism in general. All this flat earth stuff scares noobs away.
On the contrary, it's what initially fascinated me and prompted me to start doing my own research. It's a strong statement, and gets attention.
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The term "Flat Earth" needs to be in there, otherwise people will have no idea what we're about.
Not necessarily. The modern FES traces its origins to Rowbotham's 19th century Zetetic Society.
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The term "Flat Earth" needs to be in there, otherwise people will have no idea what we're about.
Not necessarily. The modern FES traces its origins to Rowbotham's 19th century Zetetic Society.
I *like* the idea of "The Zetetic Society" or some iteration thereof, personally, and have thought about that possibility too. However, the fact is that most people not directly affiliated with the society have no idea what the word Zetetic means. Having the words "Flat Earth" in the name is probably more useful in terms of PR.
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Given that we're already getting publicity as the FES, and that some money has gone into advertising, I am strongly opposed to the idea of renaming. It'd simply invalidate our past efforts.
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Given that we're already getting publicity as the FES, and that some money has gone into advertising
We are and it has? I didn't know that.
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Given that we're already getting publicity as the FES, and that some money has gone into advertising, I am strongly opposed to the idea of renaming. It'd simply invalidate our past efforts.
This is a good point. Still, something to differentiate us from the other group may not necessarily negate all that. Surely a shift to "The Independent Flat Earth Society" wouldn't invalidate everything, as the original name is still in there?
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Given that we're already getting publicity as the FES, and that some money has gone into advertising
We are and it has? I didn't know that.
Yes, and yes. And when I stop slacking and throw some more money at, we will get even more.
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Still, something to differentiate us from the other group may not necessarily negate all that.
I don't think that "something" has to be the name. We already have our own logo and our social media (well, Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/FlatSoc) at least) are on the rise, while the other site is stagnant. I think our identity is quite secure. A new motto could be an interesting idea. I'm quite attached to the name. It acknowledges our history and ties to past societies (including the other site).
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As I see it, the Flat Earth Academy of Sciences would still be part of the Flat Earth Society. It's a sister organization. We will present ourselves to the world as being part of the Flat Earth Society. This is simply our research branch.
The .org site is for the noobs, the academy is where people eventually migrate for higher level discussions and to organize projects.
I do not see any reason to compete with the other site, attempt dissension, or confusion. We are all part of the Flat Earth Society, whether we accept the .org leadership or not. I've been with the FES before Daniel even registered the .org site. I have no problem calling whatever name we choose for this site as being an organ of the Flat Earth Society.
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With all due respect, can the logo really be held up as a distinctive feature? I don't think a casual observer would even notice the difference unless they were to have both forums open at the same time.
I'd think they would, but I have no data to back it up. Personally, I pay lots of attention to logos, but it's very possible that that's just me being weird.
That is why a change like "The Independent Flat Earth Society" would be so ideal. It doesn't take away anything; it only adds a new element particular to this society[...]
I'm a bit worried that this would carry an impression of us being the other FES. It feels extremely similar to, for example, the Oxford Brookes University (http://www.brookes.ac.uk/). Y'know, that second university in Oxford that everyone is talking about... not. They're not even a bad university, but the name acts as a detractor and provides opportunity for mockery.
Also, if individual members are to be financing ads, I think the rest of us should at least be told and provided a means to donate. Surely such things ought to be paid via a fund established by the Council on behalf of the whole society, not by private initiative behind the scenes, no?
When we set this site up, we made it clear we wouldn't monetise it. We still have no intention of doing so. The decisions of individual members to advertise the society are their own. If you want to assist, why not print out some leaflets (http://library.tfes.org/tract/index.html) and drop them around a local library, or something?
Also, we can't wait for the council to make decisions. We're still waiting for that press release (and a blog post announcing the formation of ZC, which we've been promised would be ready days after the elections - at this point it doesn't even make sense to post it, because it's so out of date), and it's being procrastinated due to decisions like the name change, which I personally view as petty and pointless. Instead of discussing which adjective we should squeeze in between which two words of "Flat Earth Society", we should focus on building up this site. We can rename at any point in time. Meanwhile, we have a community to expand, and it should not have to wait.
As I see it, the Flat Earth Academy of Sciences would still be part of the Flat Earth Society. It's a sister organization. We will present ourselves to the world as being part of the Flat Earth Society. This is simply our research branch.
Given that we're nowhere near to reaching our hosting capacity (and likely will never be), we can always set up a sister site, assuming there are people willing to work on it.
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As I see it, the Flat Earth Academy of Sciences would still be part of the Flat Earth Society. It's a sister organization. We will present ourselves to the world as being part of the Flat Earth Society.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to have a strong society before worrying about spinning off sister organizations?
This is simply our research branch.
The .org site is for the noobs, the academy is where people eventually migrate for higher level discussions and to organize projects.
*ahem* No comment.
With all due respect, can the logo really be held up as a distinctive feature? I don't think a casual observer would even notice the difference unless they were to have both forums open at the same time.
I'd think they would, but I have no data to back it up. Personally, I pay lots of attention to logos, but it's very possible that that's just me being weird.
Pizza, this site is essentially a clone of the other site. The logo here just looks like a refresh of the original logo. Even most of the tired, old arguments are the same here. I haven't really looked to closely, but I'm guessing that the wiki hasn't changed much since it was copied from the other site either. Face it, other than a few subtle (and much appreciated) improvements to the forum software, there is hardly any distinction at all between this site and the other.
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Pizza, this site is essentially a clone of the other site.
I prefer to think of it as a continuation, but sure. We were never intending to start a new society, just to move to a better forum (only later on we decided to reform the way the society is governed). That's exactly what we did, which is why it looks like that.
The logo here just looks like a refresh of the original logo.
Each to their own. I think it looks very different. The one and only similarity is that they both depict an image of a flat Earth.
Even most of the tired, old arguments are the same here.
Does that surprise you? You're discussing the same topics with the same people. The discussions are quite obviously going to be similar.
I haven't really looked to closely, but I'm guessing that the wiki hasn't changed much since it was copied from the other site either.
There have been some changes, but nothing enormous, no.
Face it, other than a few subtle (and much appreciated) improvements to the forum software, there is hardly any distinction at all between this site and the other.
And I'm very happy to do more. I just don't think a name change is the right step. I do not oppose making changes in general, I just dislike this particular idea for a change.
This is why I was fairly enthusiastic about ZC. I was really hoping to see some media interaction. This is also why this discussion annoys me - the ZC put off doing useful stuff until this is concluded.
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Don't get me wrong, Pizza. I do understand most of the whats and whys of this site. I just think that all concerned need to figure out where they want this site and/or society to go before they worry too much about how to get there.
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I just think that all concerned need to figure out where they want this site and/or society to go before they worry too much about how to get there.
I think they can be done in parallel, to some extent.
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I'm a bit worried that this would carry an impression of us being the other FES. It feels extremely similar to, for example, the Oxford Brookes University (http://www.brookes.ac.uk/). Y'know, that second university in Oxford that everyone is talking about... not. They're not even a bad university, but the name acts as a detractor and provides opportunity for mockery.
But as it stands right now we are already the "other" Oxford. Rather than being an unrelated Oxford startup school I would prefer to be the Oxford Graduate School, the place of higher studies for Oxford University.
We may not have the keys to Oxford University, but we can have the keys to its Graduate School. The path we are on right now is to start an unrelated "Oxford University" and attempt some sort of competition for the name.
I believe we should compete, but it should not around which site is the "real" or "true" Flat Earth Society. That distracts from the movement. A different name separates us from the distraction.
My idea is to create something which compliments the .org site so that we may prosper. For example, I would like to start writing a first chapter to a new annotated edition of Earth Not a Globe. When the chapter is done we can host it on the site and make a post on the .org site to tell them about these things the academy has done, not act as a representative from a competitor and try to sway them to join our competing Flat Earth Society because we are better and Daniel is so bad, etc.
When reaching out to the press, I suspect that there would be more interest in hearing that the Flat Earth Society has created the Flat Earth Academy, the first academic organization to further FET and academic brain trust of Zetetic Science, rather than a story of how some people revolted and created a different Flat Earth Society because of some technical issues.
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The issue isn't individual members advertizing the society. The issue is the content and the fact that money is being spent on it. We all know what is in the leaflets Tintagel made for the society because she posted them for all to see. We know nothing about these ads that were clandestinely placed for an unknown price somewhere at sometime. It's alarming to have this kind of information come out of the blue, particularly when it's being used to bolster someone's position.
It's not being used to bolster anyone's position - I'd like to ask that you choose your accusations more carefully. All content on Facebook is public (https://www.facebook.com/FlatSoc), and a link to it is rather prominent on the Society's front page. Also, most regulars would know about these ads, because we showed them off when they were being made on IRC. If you have an issue with the content on Facebook, you're more than welcome to raise specific concerns, after you've actually seen it. Until then, I do not appreciate your comments, as they appear to carry the sole intention of discrediting our efforts.
I also don't understand why you're so concerned about the price. It's my money, which I earned because I have a job. We do not accept donations to, among other reasons, avoid dissent from people complaining about how their money is being spent.
I don't see how the name change decision has contributed to slowing down the Council
You seem not to see many things that are right there in the open. http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1132.msg16625#msg16625
The whole point of the Council was to perform certain duties and authorize certain actions on behalf of the society. If you feel that it's already proven itself to be a failed experiment and are prepared to support its abolition, that's fine. Just say that.
I am not saying that at all. Again, much appreciated if you stop putting words in my mouth. All I'm saying is that the ZC should start doing the things they were mandated to do by their electorate, and only then focus on pointless dabble. As it stands, they have no Constitution (which was a direct requirement and condition for their existence), and have not produced any of the communication they promised. We cannot talk about a failed experiment, because there is no experiment to speak of yet.
However, that isn't what the membership here decided the system was going to be. That's going to have to be reconciled if you want to take a new direction.
The membership here decided how the Society is going to be run; not the Facebook page. The Facebook page is being run by myself, Tintagel, Secret User and Junker, and predates the ZC in its origin. I refer you to the list of people in charge of different FES-oriented media, none of which are under the jurisdiction of the ZC*: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=804.0
* - n.b. This may change once the ZC has a constitution, and following discussion. However, at the present, that's what things are.
I agree with the general sentiment here. If you'll read my original post that was misrepresented to start the "name debate" in this thread, you'll see that I was explicitly not supporting a change of the name. The only reason I pursued it here was because it was the only idea I mentioned that anyone seemed to want to talk about. I absolutely feel that there are much more important things to be done.
But they're not being done. We're stuck here because of the discussion you (allegedly) started, and TB is not going to let this go even if no one supports him. If it was misrepresented, that's something you should have mentioned earlier, don't you think?
EDIT: I just went through every post you made on this site, and the only time you mention the rename or lack thereof prior to my objection is to push your own name. I'm not sure how that's an explicit declaration of lack of support, and a clarification on that would be useful.
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I'll let it go if there is a lack of support on the matter.
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I apologise, Tom. That comment on my part was uncalled for.
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I'm a bit worried that this would carry an impression of us being the other FES. It feels extremely similar to, for example, the Oxford Brookes University (http://www.brookes.ac.uk/). Y'know, that second university in Oxford that everyone is talking about... not. They're not even a bad university, but the name acts as a detractor and provides opportunity for mockery.
But as it stands right now we are already the "other" Oxford. Rather than being an unrelated Oxford startup school I would prefer to be the Oxford Graduate School, the place of higher studies for Oxford University.
Honestly, I'd like to see that too, but I doubt that will ever happen. Unless and until FE'ers can start supporting their FE "models" with math that matches real world observations, then your "Graduate School" will be no better than FES grade school.
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I'm a bit worried that this would carry an impression of us being the other FES. It feels extremely similar to, for example, the Oxford Brookes University (http://www.brookes.ac.uk/). Y'know, that second university in Oxford that everyone is talking about... not. They're not even a bad university, but the name acts as a detractor and provides opportunity for mockery.
But as it stands right now we are already the "other" Oxford. Rather than being an unrelated Oxford startup school I would prefer to be the Oxford Graduate School, the place of higher studies for Oxford University.
Honestly, I'd like to see that too, but I doubt that will ever happen. Unless and until FE'ers can start supporting their FE "models" with math that matches real world observations, then your "Graduate School" will be no better than FES grade school.
Why do you keep saying this? If you've been paying attention for the last seven years, the community often does to provide some sort of math for its models. I've seen math used to compute Special Relativity for acceleration problems, I've seen math used to compute how hot the a small and near sun would be to warm the earth, and I've seen math in Earth Not a Globe to compute convexity. Math has been provided for calculating the thickness of the earth under a "gravity" model, as well as math to predict the recurrence of a lunar eclipse.
Efforts need to be made to search through the old threads and categorize this in the Wiki, but it cannot be said that no math is ever performed.
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Tom, to say FE'ers "often" try to provide supporting math is, at best, an exaggeration and, at worst, an outright lie. From what I've seen over the past 7 years, FE'ers tend to be deathly afraid of math. As I recall, in most of those cases that you mention, the math was done by RE'ers to show the improbability of the various models being discussed. I've even provided math showing the inconsistent results of trying determine the height of the sun by triangulation.
What I'm talking about is FE'ers providing maths showing that FET does work, not RE'ers providing maths showing that FET doesn't work. There is a difference.
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Can we keep whining about how FET sucks in discussions that are actually about FET, please?
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The point that I was trying to make is that it might be worthwhile to actually improve FET before worrying about advertising a society that supposedly supports FET.
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You have made that point many times now. It is noted.
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I've seen the facebook page. Among the content to be found there, what was being used for the ads you were paying for?
Most of the posts were "boosted", meaning their reach is artificially increased to friends of those who already liked the page, or other people who might be interested in them based on Facebook's algorithmic magic. Also, there were a few standard fb ads that simply display the page and its description on people's news feeds, in an effort to get them to like it.
Oh, come on. Don't be like that. We're on the same side here.
It really doesn't sound like it right now, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Hey, I don't think anyone here objects to you or anyone else spending their own money promoting the society. I just think that the society should know about it in advance. Is it really weird to think that an organization should have some foreknowledge of media expenditures on its behalf?
I dunno, it strikes me as obvious that since I run the Facebook page, I'd be making media statements, and I still don't think the financial part of it is any of anyone's business, other than my own.
I'd say the people doing this deserve a certain recognition from the society too.
Even if the person deserving recognition expressly doesn't want said recognition?
Yeah, you kind of cropped out my point there[...]
Point taken and conceded.
When you said that "we can't wait for the council to make decisions", I took that to mean that you wanted the membership to take matters into their own hands. Based on such an interpretation, it's easy to infer that the Council would then be obsolete. If that is indeed wrong, an explanation of what you meant by that is clearly needed and would be appreciated.
What I'm saying is that we should drop the rename discussion, either permanently or for the time being, as in my view it is delaying very important and long overdue tasks of the ZC. I say that with no authority and with no claim to authority, it is simply my opinion.
I honestly didn't realize that the facebook page operated independently of the society. I mean, it bears its name and presumably represents it, but the people running it put out anything they want? It even has a council of its own? At this point, would it be all that inaccurate to characterize it as a third FES? It certainly seems to be getting a lot more done than this place.
It's not operated independently of the society, it's operated by its members. That's a very common occurrence in non-profit organisations (or at least each and every one of those I am or have been involved in is doing that - perhaps my sample is heavily skewed, but I'm under the impression it's not). A group of members decide to help out, and they help out. There's no reason for it to be overly formalised, and there's no reason to interrogate me or anyone else about it. If you, or anyone else, is interested in joining, I'm very happy to let almost anyone in.
I've covered this already. The name discussion has nothing to do with the Council's recent inactivity and you know it.
No, I don't know it. The way I see it, several members of the ZC were inactive around Christmas time, which explains their inactivity to some extent. After that, a statement was made that the press release is being put on hold until the name debate is settled. Perhaps that's not the real reason (I think it is), but it certainly is the official reason. In either way, getting that reason out of the way sounds like at least a partial solution.
I can't help but get the impression that you're channeling your frustration at the Council towards me. I don't hold any kind of influence here, so I'm really not worth it.
No, my frustration towards you comes from the fact that I feel attacked (by you and you alone) for trying to help the society out. I deeply regret even mentioning the ads.
Okay. The post is actually quoted in the OP of this thread. I mention the possibility of a name change as a means of differentiation, but I ultimately express reservations toward the idea. I conclude by saying that "it will have to be entirely the efforts of the members here to set this place apart". I don't see that as being much different from your own position.
It is different from my position. My position is that any and all efforts to rename the society would be harmful to it. The only exception to that I can think of is the "official name that we'd never use anyway" proposal. After all, the other FES is technically the International Flat Earth Research Society, or something along these lines. If that's the kind of thing you want to do (which involves no change at all in our logo, site, or media), that's fine, especially since it in no way halts the press release and other activities.
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Reported for quote walls.
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I'm going to go ahead and withdraw my support of the name change as well, at least for the time being.
PP makes good points. We may need to address it in the future, but if it's holding up the ZC's progress on the media release and otherwise disrupting the momentum we have, then I'm in favor of tabling the idea.
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Alright. If that's a general agreement I'll draft the press release tomorrow.
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As I see some discussion taking place in the ZC board about the release, and I can't post there, I wanted to give you some links to help you get started. Press releases are super easy to write once you learn the format. There are also some templates here to make it even easier.
http://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/press-release-template-ht
http://www.publicityinsider.com/release.asp
http://www.smallbusinesspr.com/pr-learning-center/diagrams-templates/
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As I see some discussion taking place in the ZC board about the release, and I can't post there, I wanted to give you some links to help you get started. Press releases are super easy to write once you learn the format. There are also some templates here to make it even easier.
http://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/press-release-template-ht
http://www.publicityinsider.com/release.asp
http://www.smallbusinesspr.com/pr-learning-center/diagrams-templates/
Awesome, thanks.
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I'm just going to drop this discussion now. If you hate me trying to help the society so much, go ahead and ask me directly, via PM, to stop. This applies to anyone interested, especially potentially concerned council members. If you (Oscar) are just going to keep coming back to try and make me feel shit about it, well, you're getting ignored. Simples.
I should also clarify that the council has no authority over anything for the time being. I mean, I've already clarified it for you once, but here you go again. Until they develop the constitution, they're just a working group. They are more than welcome to specify rules on how social media are run whenever they get round to writing it, subject to members' approval.
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My opinion, at least, is that any member of the society in good standing can do whatever they want for the society with its permission. The council will have responsibilities to do certain things, but insisting that everything is our job seems needlessly bureaucratic to me.
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I can see the benefit in that. My only concern, as I said, is bureaucracy. I don't want to make it needlessly difficult for people to actually do things for the society, and this strikes me as a step in that direction. What do other people think?
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I think it makes sense to at least have the advertisements made public on here. It doesn't necessarily need to be for approval purposes, but those in charge need to know what is being said for the community in case they need to issue a statement to the contrary of the advertisement.
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here for what its worth why don't you try doing more experiments like the Bedford level experiment was a hundred years ago it isn't a good look to base your theory off that when round earth is pretty much used as a basis for many scientific studies with real world effects. another thing is stop focusing on bashing round earth for a bit or tone it down the whole conspiracy thing really just puts up a whole tinfoil hat brigade look about the place look I think round earth is right but since everybody has a right to contribute ill contribute. another thing is make the place more fun and fix all the links on the wiki when you have a look at it half don't lead anywhere, the fun thing is more just maybe have a meet and greet thread I don't think if I posted one many people would post on it but one of the longer term members maybe but just make everybody know eachother better its very hostile here right now