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Offline Clyde Frog

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #200 on: July 08, 2021, 01:57:31 PM »
That's some OT stuff right there. I thought Jesus made things better after that?

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #201 on: July 08, 2021, 02:13:56 PM »
I hope Tom's hair is nice

Lev 19:27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

And I'm surprised he supports the border wall when...

Lev 19:33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

It's fun, cherry picking isn't it?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #202 on: July 08, 2021, 03:30:12 PM »
Actually, all of that is pretty good evidence that the Lord is very judgemental like in the passages I cited.

We can see that the cherry picker is really the person here pointing fingers who claims to be a Christian who accepts the Bible and word of God as sacred, yet wants to go through it and and reject the things they don't like. That is literally the definition of cherry picking. Open the sacred scriptures and pick and choose your own religion. Ingenious.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 04:12:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #203 on: July 08, 2021, 04:13:47 PM »
That's some OT stuff right there. I thought Jesus made things better after that?
Indeed.

But people with certain agendas like to cherry pick certain verses to make their point but conveniently ignore others which they'd rather not want to worry about.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #204 on: July 08, 2021, 05:03:05 PM »
Well, we are told that God doesn't change or lie:

Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I do not change;"

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

Even Jesus says that he doesn't like sexual immorality:
 
Matthew 15:19-20 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person."

From an article "Did Jesus Ever Talk about Homosexuality?" by a pastor with an MDiv -

https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/columns/ad-fontes/jesus-ever-talk-homosexuality/

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But what did Jesus mean, precisely, when he referred to “sexual immorality” as one of those defiling and excluding sins?

The Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) defines the word porneia, translated in most Bibles as “sexual immorality”, as involving “unlawful sexual intercourse”. The Jewish law provides a long list of what constitutes unlawful sexual intercourse in Leviticus 18-20. According to those statutes, a man was forbidden to have sex with the following:

1. His neighbour’s wife (Leviticus 18:21)

2. Another man (Leviticus 18:22)

3. An animal (Leviticus 18:23)

4. His mother in law (Leviticus 20:11)

5. His daughter in law (Leviticus 20:12)

6. His sister (Leviticus 20:17)

Sex with any of these would be considered porneia – unlawful.

According to Jesus sex of this sort defiles a person and thus places them outside the worshipping community and outside the eternal kingdom of God.

Therefore it certainly cannot be argued that Jesus affirmed or was indifferent toward the issue of homosexual sex. Jesus clearly endorsed the Old Testament vision of marriage as an inviolable covenant between one man and one woman and he clearly viewed unlawful sex as being the sort of thing that defiled a person and placed them outside the kingdom of God. Jesus did not use the word “homosexuality” but neither did he use the word “incest” or “bestiality”. He did not need to. In using the Greek word porneia he identified with how the Jewish law delineated lawful and unlawful sex.

According to Jesus, unlawful sex is sin.

Sin separates us from God.

The above suggests that Jesus still doesn't like homosexuals, just like the God in the OT. Homosexuality was clearly classified as 'sexually immoral' at the time of Jesus' statements. Why should we believe that he likes crossdressing now?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 11:04:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #205 on: July 08, 2021, 05:09:35 PM »
The one-time I want Tom to cherry-pick, it blows up in my face. 
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #206 on: July 08, 2021, 05:10:09 PM »
Well, we are told that God doesn't change or lie

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A38-48&version=NIV

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You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also

God's nature doesn't change, but we are no longer under the law or the old covenent.
And while this is a complicated subject, the Jesus I see in the Gospels didn't preach hate.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #207 on: July 08, 2021, 08:04:45 PM »
God's nature doesn't change, but we are no longer under the law or the old covenent.

Jesus says the opposite:

https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/MAT.5.17-19

Matthew 5:17-19

"Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
And while this is a complicated subject, the Jesus I see in the Gospels didn't preach hate.

Not sure about that one:

Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10:34 - “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

Matthew 23:33 - “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?”

John 8:44 - “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father…”
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 09:08:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #208 on: July 08, 2021, 08:53:44 PM »
Hey Tom, how's the haircut?
Lev. 19:27 “ ‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

While we're at it, how are you on immigration?

Lev. 19:33 “ ‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Do you like bacon, Tom?

Lev. 11:7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you.

You're from the Bay Area, right?  Ever had clams, oysters, or crab?

Lev. 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to regard as unclean. 11 And since you are to regard them as unclean, you must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #209 on: July 09, 2021, 01:51:35 AM »
Have you ever heard of kosher foods? There are plenty of observant faithful who try follow those rules. They follow them for reasons unknown to them. Maybe there is a hierarchy-of-life reason; unknown covenants between the life on Earth or its angle maintainers. Possibly quality reasons. Or perhaps God is trying to test his follower's discipline, like he tests people in the Bible at various points.

The hair rules may be in reference to something not to do when in mourning. God judges your hair style when paying respects to the dead too, not only your cross-dressing and homo sex. It's a very judgemental God. The faithful who go as far to emulate the dietary restrictions would probably try to follow that as well, if they could remember, as evidenced by the extensive analysis of such passages.

All of this is further evidence that the OT is still cannon for many people and has not been discarded. People still try to follow those rules. Observant Jews eat kosher products. Muslims eat many of the kosher products. Some Christians do it.

Many Christians say that they don't need to do it with Matthew 15:11 - "Not what enters into the mouth defiles the man; but what goes forth out of the mouth, this defiles the man." But the reasoning for the dietary laws aren't really clearly stated in the scriptures. The purpose of it could be other than defilation, of course (testing, unknown covenants). Others advocate playing it safe with a simple plain following of the laws:

http://www.tylerinloes.com/kosher/

Quote
Should Christians Eat Kosher? “Kosher” describes food that complies with the dietary laws of traditional Jewish law found in the Torah. Matthew 5:17-18 tells Christians that Jesus came to fulfill not abolish the Laws. It continues that the laws will not disappear until heaven and earth disappear. If you believe in Jesus and heaven and earth have not disappeared you should eat a Kosher diet
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 11:41:59 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #210 on: July 09, 2021, 07:52:18 AM »
Paul's vision in Acts 10 is generally why Christians don't feel bound by OT rules on food.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010&version=NIV

"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #211 on: July 09, 2021, 10:10:04 AM »
Paul's vision in Acts 10 is generally why Christians don't feel bound by OT rules on food.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010&version=NIV

So something came to him in a dream and told him to do something bad because God said it was okay. That sounds more like a personal lesson rather than a direct declaration to mankind about new rules. The interpretation of new rules given to mankind is indirect. In another story God tells Abraham to murder his son. But that doesn't mean murdering children is now okay. It was one of the numerous personal lessons/tests, which God eventually stopped on the mountain top.

Peter didn't even interpret the vision as it being okay to eat non-kosher foods:

https://messianic-revolution.com/l11-29-did-peters-vision-in-acts-10-really-mean-the-kosher-food-laws-were-abolished/

Quote
So in most Gentile churches when this portion of Scripture is read out loud, afterwards the pastor with a smug smile of satisfaction on his face closes his Bible, looks out to the audience and declares…

“Could it not be more plain?”

“The Lord had sent to Peter in a vision unclean forbidden animals and told him to kill and EAT them!”

“Therefore, the Lord has ceased from calling them unclean, and that’s why it’s okay to enjoy your ham sandwiches.”

Well, not so fast there Mr. Gentile Pastor.

The first thing we should take note of is that Peter was quite confused about the vision he had just had and didn’t immediately jump to any conclusions regarding its meaning.

And then a few verses later in verse 34, we’re told the conclusion Peter came to:

“Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.”

Peter interpreted this vision to mean that God accepted men from all nations who trusted in Him.

Peter did NOT interpret this to mean that he could now go hog wild (pun intended) and eat whatsoever pleased him.

Let me say that again.

Peter did NOT interpret this to mean that the Kosher food laws were now abolished.

He interpreted it to mean that God would accept all men, in other words Gentiles, who trusted in Him.

According to this Apostle, the one who wrote the actual Scripture of the Book of Acts, this portion of the New Testament is NOT to be taken as an instruction that the laws concerning clean and unclean animals had been done away with.

When Peter had finally figured out the meaning of the baffling vision God had given to him, the conclusion he reached was that it had nothing to do with food.

It had to do with men.

In other words, FOOD was being used as a metaphor representing MEN.

Here’s what you need to understand.

Unclean animals were a well-understood and very familiar Jewish symbol that represented the uncleanness of the Gentiles.

This whole story was all about Jews shunning gentiles because Jews considered all gentiles unclean.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 12:41:05 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #212 on: July 09, 2021, 10:22:47 AM »
Oh, we're doing that again are we? Cherry picking an interpretation? I can do that too, look!:

http://www.steppesoffaith.com/apologetics/god-okay-eat-bacon

I'm just telling you one of the justifications I've heard. There's more in the above.
If you disagree and you consider yourself a Christian then feel free to follow the old rules.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #213 on: July 10, 2021, 01:58:57 AM »
Have you noticed that every time you rant about cherry picking, that you're really the one doing it?

The Bible says something that you don't like, or doesn't say something, so you find an unstated interpretation. What is supposed to be a divinely appointed apostille and writer of the book in the Bible gave you the interpretation. He didn't interpret it as non-kosher foods being fine to eat. That was not the conclusion. If that was the conclusion, he would have said so. You ignored the author's conclusions of what it meant and came up with an interpretation to suit yourself.

And no, I don't eat kosher. I simply don't feel the need  to lie to myself about what it says.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 01:56:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #214 on: July 10, 2021, 07:08:40 AM »
no u
See. The reason it’s you doing it is that, as always, you are promoting a view which is not common. I don’t know if you do that because you really go out of your way to not believe anything which is mainstream or whether you just think it’s fun to try and debate from the weaker position. But whatever, so you go off and cherry pick sources which back up that fringe view. And sure, you’ll always find some people who back that view up because the internet.
But can we agree that most Christians are not kosher? I have just shown one of the reasons why.

Quote
And no, I don't eat kosher. I simply don't feel the need  to lie to myself about what it says.
Oh right, so you’re just a hypocrite instead? You believe one thing but do another? Ok, if that’s what you’re going with.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #215 on: July 11, 2021, 12:56:10 AM »
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
See. The reason it’s you doing it is that, as always, you are promoting a view which is not common. I don’t know if you do that because you really go out of your way to not believe anything which is mainstream or whether you just think it’s fun to try and debate from the weaker position. But whatever, so you go off and cherry pick sources which back up that fringe view.

So the Jews and Muslims who eat kosher or halal in accordance with the OT teachings have a fringe view now? Sounds fairly insulting to them.

Someone is certainly wrong about what God wants in the scriptures. It's the Christians versus the Jews and Muslims. Someone must have it wrong.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Oh right, so you’re just a hypocrite instead? You believe one thing but do another? Ok, if that’s what you’re going with.

I don't recall saying that the Bible should be religiously followed. I'm fairly skeptical about it. You're the guy who goes around bragging about being a Christian who believes the Bible is sacred, yet won't accept its teachings about gays, crossdressers, and sexual immorality. Pretty hypocritical on your part. Once again, you are falsely accusing people of doing what you are actually doing.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 05:59:42 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #216 on: July 11, 2021, 06:05:06 AM »
So the Jews and Muslims who eat kosher or halal in accordance with the OT teachings have a fringe view now?
Well no. They’re not Christians. They don’t believe in the New Testament. If they did they’d be Christians. The view you’re exposing is a fringe view amongst Christians. I said:

Quote
But can we agree that most Christians are not kosher?

Quote
Someone is certainly wrong about what God wants in the scriptures. It's the Christians versus the Jews and Muslims. Someone must have it wrong.

Correct. They three religions can’t all be correct as they are all contradictory. The main sticking point (very simplistic view) seems to be about who Jesus was.

Quote
You're the guy who goes around bragging about being a Christian

Bragging?!  :D

I’ve already addressed the rest. You can’t look at the Old Testament in isolation, it has to be looked at through the lens of the New Testament. But these are admittedly complicated issues.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #217 on: July 11, 2021, 07:07:26 PM »
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Well no. They’re not Christians. They don’t believe in the New Testament. If they did they’d be Christians. The view you’re exposing is a fringe view amongst Christians. I said:

Quote
But can we agree that most Christians are not kosher?

The Jews and Muslims have access to those same texts, whether they choose to reject them or not. They obviously still believe that God is telling them to restrict their diet and don't see it what way. Eating kosher isn't a "fringe view." Plenty of people interpret the scriptures in that way.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Well I’ve already addressed the rest. You can’t look at the Old Testament in isolation, it has to be looked at through the lens of the New Testament. But these are admittedly complicated issues.

Here is a passage from the New Testament:

https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/ROM.1.26-27

Romans 1:26-27 - "That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved."

Shameful

Not normal

Sin

Suffered penalty

The New Testament is still clearly saying that homosexuality is bad there. I don't see that anything has changed.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 07:16:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #218 on: July 11, 2021, 07:24:59 PM »
This thread is really something... what started as a discussion about whether trans athletes should be allowed to compete in gendered high school sporting competitions is now just a launch pad for ...whatever the hell the last couple dozen  posts have been  ???

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #219 on: July 11, 2021, 08:36:17 PM »
This thread is really something... what started as a discussion about whether trans athletes should be allowed to compete in gendered high school sporting competitions is now just a launch pad for ...whatever the hell the last couple dozen  posts have been  ???

Tom being a troll. Business as usual.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.