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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #140 on: June 28, 2021, 04:36:55 PM »
If you are claiming that there are male and female brains ... then in the same way as you get male and female pelvis' ... a female brain is never going to turn up in a male body.
You keep repeating that, and when asked to justify it, you either ignore the question or repeat it again. Do you not have any justification?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #141 on: June 28, 2021, 04:40:16 PM »
Male genetics make males ... female genetics make females. To believe female bits turn up in males is ridiculous. They don't have the genetic code to make them. Human XY chromosomes aren't going to conjure a female brain any more than they will conjure a set of Bison horns.
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Online xasop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #142 on: June 28, 2021, 04:41:17 PM »
Male genetics make males ... female genetics make females. To believe female bits turn up in males is ridiculous. They don't have the genetic code to make them. XY chromosomes aren't going to conjure a female brain any more than they will conjure a set of Bison horns.
And here we go, around the circle again.
Do you just assume DNA is responsible for all human development? Because it isn't, not by a long shot.
Do you have anything to back up what you're saying, or is it just a load of hot opinions?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #143 on: June 28, 2021, 11:19:55 PM »
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #144 on: June 29, 2021, 02:30:21 AM »
Many women and girls don't feel safe or comfortable showering or changing around what appears to be nude male strangers. They don't want to be in that situation and feel that it is inappropriate for obvious reasons.

Then they're just going to have to get over it. The discomfort of unaffected third parties is not a good reason to deny equal rights to marginalized groups, whether they're interracial couples, gays, or trans people.
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #145 on: June 29, 2021, 03:34:22 AM »
Also if we normalize seeing human bodies they wouldn't feel so uncomfortable. Modern civilization is the only thing making us feel this way.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #146 on: June 29, 2021, 05:55:33 AM »
The whole trans thing is basically like saying "I'm ugly, but I don't want to be ugly so you have to say I'm beautiful". With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this. You can't treat body dysmorphia or any other mental illness by pretending to be something you're not.

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #147 on: June 29, 2021, 07:29:44 AM »
Then they're just going to have to get over it.
Why can't the tiny minority of 'trans' people get over it? For the entirety of human history, that's what has happened. Its only in the last 5 years suddenly the entire world has to change how it thinks to accommodate a few people with gender dysmorphia.

The discomfort of unaffected third parties is not a good reason to deny equal rights to marginalized groups, whether they're interracial couples, gays, or trans people.
They aren't being denied. They can still use a changing room. The one they have used their entire life up until this point. The discomfort of a tiny minority of people suffering from a mental illness is not a good reason to deny actual women the security and privacy of a single sex changing room.


Also if we normalize seeing human bodies they wouldn't feel so uncomfortable. Modern civilization is the only thing making us feel this way.
People have been wearing clothes since Adam got caught ogling Eve. There is nothing modern about modesty. It is only the batshit liberal upsidedown thinking horseshit of the last decade or so, that suddenly makes standing up for every minority group no matter what the ridiculous demands, in vogue.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 07:36:15 AM by Toddler Thork »
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #148 on: June 29, 2021, 09:17:56 AM »
With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this.
Thing is, we've tried and tried again, and therapy just doesn't seem to work. Hormone therapy and surgery reduces the suicide rates (yes, they're still very high), and for some people it helps them get on with everyday life.

Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering. If the biggest point against it is that some people find it wacky and gross, then IMHO we should be telling those people to get over themselves.

This is not to say that this approach doesn't create any problems. The OP is a decent example, but I think it would be disingenuous to oppose people transitioning as a whole because of it.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #149 on: June 29, 2021, 09:50:53 AM »
Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering.
So the most effective path to the least suffering is to let men compete in women's sporting events?
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2021, 09:52:53 AM »
So the most effective path to the least suffering is to let men compete in women's sporting events?
I refer you to the last sentence of my previous post.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Online Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2021, 11:38:10 AM »
Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering.
So the most effective path to the least suffering is to let men compete in women's sporting events?

It also looks like the most effective way to reduce suicide rates amongst trans people is for them to be accepted in their social groups.
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2021, 11:42:02 AM »
The whole trans thing is basically like saying "I'm ugly, but I don't want to be ugly so you have to say I'm beautiful". With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this. You can't treat body dysmorphia or any other mental illness by pretending to be something you're not.

Sounds like good advice for those who are pretending, but as has been presented here, there is evidence showing this is not an act of will, but rather tied to specific brain structures.  So a criticism of trans rights should keep that in mind.
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #153 on: June 29, 2021, 03:11:12 PM »
Also if we normalize seeing human bodies they wouldn't feel so uncomfortable. Modern civilization is the only thing making us feel this way.
People have been wearing clothes since Adam got caught ogling Eve.
I see we have a historian over here who really knows what he's talking about. I didn't say people weren't wearing clothing, but yes our level of expected privacy and modesty is relatively modern.

Hunter - gatherers still exist who wear very little clothing or none at all depending on what they're doing and the time of year.

Then they're just going to have to get over it.
Why can't the tiny minority of 'trans' people get over it? For the entirety of human history, that's what has happened. Its only in the last 5 years suddenly the entire world has to change how it thinks to accommodate a few people with gender dysmorphia.
Again with the false historian angle. There is historic evidence of people living as a different gender than what they were born with. Just because you didn't hear about something over the internet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

The discomfort of unaffected third parties is not a good reason to deny equal rights to marginalized groups, whether they're interracial couples, gays, or trans people.
They aren't being denied. They can still use a changing room. The one they have used their entire life up until this point. The discomfort of a tiny minority of people suffering from a mental illness is not a good reason to deny actual women the security and privacy of a single sex changing room.
I'd argue there is no sense of security or privacy in one large, open, changing room even with one sex. I remember there was a viral video a few years back that a younger woman took of an older, larger woman to shame her. Most changing rooms have stalls and/or showers. No one is forced to be naked in front of each other.

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #154 on: June 29, 2021, 03:21:30 PM »
With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this.
Thing is, we've tried and tried again, and therapy just doesn't seem to work. Hormone therapy and surgery reduces the suicide rates (yes, they're still very high), and for some people it helps them get on with everyday life.

Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering. If the biggest point against it is that some people find it wacky and gross, then IMHO we should be telling those people to get over themselves.

This is not to say that this approach doesn't create any problems. The OP is a decent example, but I think it would be disingenuous to oppose people transitioning as a whole because of it.
Exactly this. I think I posted an article earlier about talk therapy not helping very much and sometimes making things worse, but I can't be bothered to find it.

I'm surprised Fortuna would think therapy hasn't been tried or advocated for? It does seem like the major disconnect is people not realizing the struggle or treatment options that trans people go through. A general lack of education and empathy on the topic and even a refusal to learn enough about it because they are adamant they somehow know best and that trans people are wacky.

We could probably find workable solutions in most circumstances if people didn't have knee-jerk reactions. And I do mean that on both sides, I have seen some unreasonable things come from the left about it.

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #155 on: June 29, 2021, 03:36:51 PM »
I see we have a historian over here who really knows what he's talking about. I didn't say people weren't wearing clothing, but yes our level of expected privacy and modesty is relatively modern.
No it isn't. When I give you an example ... eg Adam and Eve ... a 1600 year old text called the bible that shows walking around naked is not a thing, "Nah-ah" isn't a worthy rebuttal. From the same source, Noah and his son Ham. Ham is disgraced in the bible because he sees his father naked. He also castrates his father and bums him, but for reasons I can't really figure out, seeing him naked is worse. Anyhoooooo exposing yourself has been a no no all around the world for millennia. You can keep saying no ... with zero sources but I'm ignoring your protestations unless backed with a source from now on.

Hunter - gatherers still exist who wear very little clothing or none at all depending on what they're doing and the time of year.
They are not civilised people. They are little more than animals. I'm not sure we should revert to being uncivilised to accommodate the 'trans community'.

Again with the false historian angle. There is historic evidence of people living as a different gender than what they were born with. Just because you didn't hear about something over the internet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
You don't run a society for the needs and wants of a tiny minority of people with mental problems. 🙄

I'd argue there is no sense of security or privacy in one large, open, changing room even with one sex. I remember there was a viral video a few years back that a younger woman took of an older, larger woman to shame her. Most changing rooms have stalls and/or showers. No one is forced to be naked in front of each other.
For almost all of time in every civilised country on earth we have decided to segregate changing facilities ... largely to make women feel comfortable. Now because you feel there are victims who need protecting, you want to throw that out of the window. Can you see why liberals are viewed as such a joke by everyone else?
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #156 on: June 29, 2021, 04:06:59 PM »
No it isn't. When I give you an example ... eg Adam and Eve ... a 1600 year old text called the bible that shows walking around naked is not a thing, "Nah-ah" isn't a worthy rebuttal. From the same source, Noah and his son Ham. Ham is disgraced in the bible because he sees his father naked. He also castrates his father and bums him, but for reasons I can't really figure out, seeing him naked is worse. Anyhoooooo exposing yourself has been a no no all around the world for millennia. You can keep saying no ... with zero sources but I'm ignoring your protestations unless backed with a source from now on.
Adam and Eve are not real.

And if you want sources, well it depends on the culture. But the argument wasn't about clothing, it was about how often people saw naked bodies and the lack of hyper sexualization. You quoting the source of equating nakedness with shame and sin is not going unnoticed and a 1600 year old text is relatively modern by human standards.

But you can start here if you're interested. I think you'd like China, you have a similar mind with their culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity


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They are not civilised people. They are little more than animals. I'm not sure we should revert to being uncivilised to accommodate the 'trans community'.
We are animals.

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You don't run a society for the needs and wants of a tiny minority of people with mental problems. 🙄
We should find the solution for people to live healthy and satisfying lives, unless you want to go back to locking people away in asylums.

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For almost all of time in every civilised country on earth we have decided to segregate changing facilities ... largely to make women feel comfortable. Now because you feel there are victims who need protecting, you want to throw that out of the window. Can you see why liberals are viewed as such a joke by everyone else?
I feel like you keep missing the part where most people change in stalls or behind shower curtains, but you think that's unreasonable or a joke? Should people be naked in front of strangers or not, I'm getting mixed signals from you. Also, I'm not a liberal.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 04:33:31 PM by rooster »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #157 on: June 29, 2021, 09:13:01 PM »
Adam and Eve are not real.
*Sigh*
Yes, but the bible is real and the bible was instructing people to wear clothes. An example is the made up story of Adam and Eve which served as a lesson about wearing clothes.

And if you want sources, well it depends on the culture. But the argument wasn't about clothing, it was about how often people saw naked bodies and the lack of hyper sexualization. You quoting the source of equating nakedness with shame and sin is not going unnoticed and a 1600 year old text is relatively modern by human standards.
I'm not on board with going in back in time more than 1600 years (probably closer to 5000 years) just so that a few people with gender dysmorphia can change in the wrong changing rooms.

But you can start here if you're interested. I think you'd like China, you have a similar mind with their culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity
Yes ... the Chinese had this thing called a civilisation. Civilised people wear clothes and do not expose themselves to strangers. Now ... imagine people who are civilised saying "erm, don't want to see a stranger's knob in a ladies changing room". This is something you could expect from any civilised person since before records began. Clothes predate the pen.

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They are not civilised people. They are little more than animals. I'm not sure we should revert to being uncivilised to accommodate the 'trans community'.
We are animals.
Liberals are, sure. The rest of us wear clothes and walk on our hind legs.

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You don't run a society for the needs and wants of a tiny minority of people with mental problems. 🙄
We should find the solution for people to live healthy and satisfying lives, unless you want to go back to locking people away in asylums.
Do you know why people wear clothes?
Women. Men aren't that bothered. But women were all like "Bit tired of being raped. Is there any chance you men could come up with a solution to this? We're going to complain unbearably about this until you find a solution." Well, the men got seriously sick of all the whining and so they devised a plan. They called it weaving. They showed the women how to do it and said "Ok, this is your job now. Make something pretty and cover yourself up. You look like a whore". The grateful ladies all got to work and made beautiful robes and tunics and woolly socks. And the clothes were magic. Suddenly it became really hard to just shove your knob into a woman who was standing nearby. The fabric not only created an impenetrable barrier, but it also hid the target from view making men completely forget they were stood next to a juicy pussy. This proved very very effective. Rape ceased to be an every day occurrence and clothes became the law in every country that ever invented laws. So ... should we bring back some serious rape culture (not the kind liberals complain about on college campuses but like club to the back of head rape culture) oooorrrrr shall we keep peepees and foofoos apart in public places and only allow a union in the privacy of a consensual arrangement?

I feel like you keep missing the part where most people change in stalls or behind shower curtains, but you think that's unreasonable or a joke? Should people be naked in front of strangers or not, I'm getting mixed signals from you. Also, I'm not a liberal.
People should not expose themselves to members of the opposite sex. See my story above on the history of clothes. Most women don't like not having the impenetrable barrier between their lady bits and some strange guy's junk. It makes them understandably edgy. The cave lady part of their brain instantly understands the gravity of the situation, dumps a huge wodge of adrenaline into said woman's blood and this manifests itself as panic. Fight or flight. Flight is rushing out of the change room as fast as possible and then complaining to men about the impenetrable barrier not being there. Fight is losing their shit and screaming at the pervert changing with the ladies. And if you think we should pander to the trans community ... you're a liberal.
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #158 on: June 29, 2021, 09:39:16 PM »
Still spiraling into absolute chaos and fantasy on a regular basis, huh?

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2021, 03:59:02 AM »
Why can't the tiny minority of 'trans' people get over it? For the entirety of human history, that's what has happened. Its only in the last 5 years suddenly the entire world has to change how it thinks to accommodate a few people with gender dysmorphia.

An injustice being widely practiced in the past is not a good reason to continue practicing it now.

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They aren't being denied. They can still use a changing room. The one they have used their entire life up until this point. The discomfort of a tiny minority of people suffering from a mental illness is not a good reason to deny actual women the security and privacy of a single sex changing room.

They're being denied the right to live as the gender they identify with. Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 06:12:37 AM by honk »
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