[J-Man]

Rob Skiba is not confused by the scriptures and neither am I. Not tooting my own horn but I am proclaiming Jesus as Lord and Savior, for which true believers, like myself and Rob receive the Holy Ghost, we become Spirit, literally.

John 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Punchline being, once you are Spirit like the Father in Heaven, biblical scripture becomes much more understanding as too it's intentions. I would never allow one without true salvation interpret it's meaning for me. Translation is another story.

Tom's waaay off base on Pillars, God is Spirit, all-encompassing, everything is his spiritual works, he is not moving nor his pillars. He is the same yesterday as today.

[Tom Bishop]

It seems to be fully consistent that we may have gotten the interpretation wrong, and that we were supposed to be confused. God tells us that this matter is a mystery to man. Take a look at what God asks Job in Job 38:18:

Job 38:18

Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this.

Man is not expected to know what the expanse is. It is an enigma. A mystery to man. And apparently a deep and profound one. God expects Job to not understand the expanse. Perhaps, like Job, we were not expected not to fully know its true nature.

We are given a few clues:

Psalm 150:1

Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse.

The expanse is mighty.

There is also something "like an expanse" over our heads:

Ezekiel 1:22

[ Vision of Divine Glory ] Now over the heads of the living beings there was something like an expanse, like the awesome gleam of crystal, spread out over their heads.

Not the expanse, but like an expanse. Could it be that this is where we are going? The endless free space that is above?

In Daniel we are told the following, in relation to the subject of the expanse of heaven and eternal life:

Daniel 12:3

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

There seems to be both an expanse of the earth and the expanse of heaven. The expanse of the earth, from where we came, and the expanse of heaven, to where we are going (read as everlasting life).

The bible does seem to be trying to tell us something. One interpretation is that the expanse is the same thing that was discovered by Albert Einstein, and that the matter happens to solve the deepest mysteries of both physics and the bible.

What does the stationary earth solve for us? What does the stationary earth do for us? What is the expanse? The stationary earth seems to be an interpretation of four words only, "Will Not Be Moved", identified and interpreted by geocentrists, ignores all else, and exists as a limit on God and His will for the world.

We can feel God's will pressing up against us, and we can see it when we step off of a chair. It seems, to me, to solve all mysteries.

[Tom Bishop]

The Earth Stands

The bible contains several curious messages on how the earth stands and is standing.

Psalm 119:90 tells us:

Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.

Isaiah 48:13 says:

Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

How can the earth or the heavens "stand"? One one hand stand could mean like "standing water". On the other hand, stand could mean all sorts of things. To find interpretation we can go to the bible to learn what it may mean:

Romans 14:4

Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 10:12

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

The opposite of stand appears to be fall. Colloquially, the opposite of fall is rise. Are the heavens and the earth rising, as other passages we have looked at seem to say?

Samuel tells us that the heavens also have foundations:

2 Samuel 22:8

Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry.

What are the foundations that heaven rests upon? Invisible to us. And apparently not a physical thing, as the earth's foundation is popularized to be. Could they be the hand of God, which stands for Him together with the earth?

The bible contains numerous allusions to rising, and how it is a good and divine thing. If the bible were to tell us that the earth were rising, that should come as absolutely no surprise. We should not be surprised at all with that concept.

[J-Man]

It seems to be fully consistent that we may have gotten the interpretation wrong, and that we were supposed to be confused. God tells us that this matter is a mystery to man. Take a look at what God asks Job in Job 38:18:

Job 38:18

Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this.

Man is not expected to know what the expanse is. It is an enigma. A mystery to man. And apparently a deep and profound one. God expects Job to not understand the expanse. Perhaps, like Job, we were not expected not to fully know its true nature.

We are given a few clues:

Psalm 150:1

Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse.

The expanse is mighty.

There is also something "like an expanse" over our heads:

Ezekiel 1:22

[ Vision of Divine Glory ] Now over the heads of the living beings there was something like an expanse, like the awesome gleam of crystal, spread out over their heads.

Not the expanse, but like an expanse. Could it be that this is where we are going? The endless free space that is above?

In Daniel we are told the following, in relation to the subject of the expanse of heaven and eternal life:

Daniel 12:3

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

There seems to be both an expanse of the earth and the expanse of heaven. The expanse of the earth, from where we came, and the expanse of heaven, to where we are going (everlasting life).

The bible does seem to be trying to tell us something. My interpretation is that the expanse is the same thing that was discovered by Albert Einstein, and that the matter happens to solve the deepest mysteries of both physics and the bible. What does the stationary earth solve for us? What does the stationary earth do for us? What is the expanse? The stationary earth is an interpretation of four words only, by geocentrists, ignores all else, and exists as a limit on God and His will for the world.

We can feel God's will pressing up against us, and we can see it when we step off of a chair. For me, at least, it solves all mysteries.

I can't even continue reading your crap. In Job God is merely asking if Job surveyed the earth, knows it's boundrys, not hammered out the dome. You are deceiving no real believers.

[Tom Bishop]

Here is that full Job quote from NASB:

https://nasb.literalword.com/?h=18&q=Job+38

I won't quote it all here, but let us all go to that chapter and read it and point out my lies. I do not read much about the dome or surveying in the part about the expanse. But I do read this:

“Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
“Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
“On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

A very good point. Where were we when God did all of that?

This chapter pertains directly to this conversation, to this entire matter, and more. It was written for you and I. I encourage you to read every word.

We can't profess to know exactly what God did. One side is only asking a question and pointing out curiosities for consideration, and has admitted that they may be wrong in interpretation. Another side is professing to know all answers because they themselves are true and holy and just. Who is deceiving whom in this scenario?

[J-Man]

Here is that full Job quote from NASB:

https://nasb.literalword.com/?h=18&q=Job+38

I won't quote it all here, but let us all go to that chapter and read it and point out my lies. I do not read much about the dome or surveying in the part about the expanse. But I do read this:

“Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
“Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
“On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

A very good point. Where were we when God did all of that?

This chapter pertains directly to this conversation, to this entire matter, and more. It was written for you and I. I encourage you to read every word.

We can't profess to know exactly what God did. One side is only asking a question and pointing out curiosities for consideration, and has admitted that they may be wrong in interpretation. Another side is professing to know all answers because they are true and holy and just. Who is deceiving whom in this scenario?

Sorry Tommy

KJV is


Job 38:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

God is asking Job if he knows the measurements of the earth, nothing about the Raqia/Firmament

Also the Living Bible which I think many newbies should use as KJV can be a stumbling block to fully understand:


Job 38:18 Living Bible (TLB)

17-18 Has the location of the gates of death been revealed to you? Do you realize the extent of the earth? Tell me about it if you know!

Again no one is talking the firmament.

[Tom Bishop]

We read:

http://www.preceptministries.ca/blog/esv-or-nasb/

The NASB has always been popular with serious Bible students because the translators tried to “render the grammar and terminology” of the original languages into English. And they worked at being as literal as possible. English Bible students have always wanted to know exactly what the text said so they could be the ones to determine for themselves the meaning. The NASB meets that need.

This may be another word for expanse:

NASB Lexicon from Biblehub:

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/job/38-18.htm



We click on the links to the right of the expanse and see:

Word Origin

from rachab

Definition
breadth, broad expanse

NASB Translation
broad place (1), expanse (1).

...

Brown-Driver-Briggs
רַ֫חַב noun [masculine] not feminine Job 36:16 AlbrZAW xvi (1896), 94 Di Bu] breadth, broad expanse; — absolute ׳ר Job 36:16 (opposed to צָ֑ר); plural construct intensive רַחֲבֵיאָֿ֑רֶץ Job 38:18 the broad expanse of earth.

...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
breadth, broad place

From rachab; a width -- breadth, broad place.

Link 2, "from rachab": https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7337.htm

Strong's Concordance

rachab: to be or grow wide or large

...

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
a prim. root

Definition
to be or grow wide or large

NASB Translation
enlarge (6), enlarged (2), enlarges (3), extend (1), extends (1), large (1), made your wide (1), made room (1), makes room (1), open your wide (1), open wide (1), opened their wide (1), rejoice (1), relieved (1), roomy (1), speaks boldly (1), wider (1).

...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

make room, make open wide

A primitive root; to broaden (intransitive or transitive, literal or figurative) -- be an en-(make) large(-ing), make room, make (open) wide.

Have we understood the "grow wide," "make open wide," or "grow large" of the earth...?

It is of no surprise why there are many translations of the bible. Its interpretation is not simple, and eludes the smartest of us.

Who can professes to understand what the "grow wide" or "grow large" of the earth is? It seems that scripture was correct in its implication of mystery.

The word "grow," as its root, to me, is curious, as that is the most consistent word. And this is all we are doing—Pointing out curiosity.

If, this is unacceptable, is there someone who we should talk to who possesses true knowledge of creation? Should we stop here and never post another word of it? What should we do, or not do, about this matter?

[Tom Bishop]

Recall that there were four quotes like Psalm 96:10 in NASB:

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”

There were four quotes like this, which we saw earlier. Three which said "will not be moved". One of them was more specific than the others, and which said that it was established so that it would not totter forever and ever. These are the key stationary and immovable passages championed by the geocentrists: "Will not be moved."

When we go to the lexicon website used above, for one of the "will not be moved" passages, we find the following:

Psalm 96:10

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/96-10.htm



"Will not be moved" appears to be clarified as "will not totter"

Clicking on the link to the immediate right of "it will not be moved" we find:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4131.htm

Strong's Concordance

mot: to totter, shake, slip

...

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

a prim. root
Definition
to totter, shake, slip

NASB Translation
bring down (1), fall (1), falter (1), gives way (1), immovable* (1), moved (8), shake (1), shaken (11), shaken violently (1), slip (4), slipped (2), slips (1), staggering (1), totter (3), tottered (1), totters (1).

...

Brown-Driver-Briggs

verb totter, shake, slip (usually in poetry) (Late Hebrew id., derived species; Aramaic , מוּט; Arabic (medial י) remove, retire; deviate from right course; repel, push, thrust; Ethiopic turn; Assyrian ma‰û is dwindle, diminish, grow weak DlHWB 405; > denominative from מוט pole, bar DlProl.184 GerberVerb. denominative 195 f., compare Buhl);

...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, exceedingly, falling down

A primitive root; to waver; by implication, to slip, shake, fall -- be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall(-ing down), be (re-)moved, be ready, shake, slide, slip.

The other two "will not be moved" quotes appear as the same:

Psalm 93:1

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/93-1.htm



1 Chronicles 16:30

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_chronicles/16-30.htm



The links to the immediate right of "will not be moved" take us to the same 'tottering' page.

Does this clarify what "will not be moved" means?

All appear to be saying totter.

Of the above, I find the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to that word most interesting:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, exceedingly, falling down

A primitive root; to waver; by implication, to slip, shake, fall -- be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall(-ing down), be (re-)moved, be ready, shake, slide, slip.

From the Strong's Concordence Wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong%27s_Concordance

The purpose of Strong's Concordance is not to provide content or commentary about the Bible, but to provide an index to the Bible. This allows the reader to find words where they appear in the Bible. This index allows a student of the Bible to re-find a phrase or passage previously studied. It also lets the reader directly compare how the same word may be used elsewhere in the Bible. In this way Strong provides an independent check against translations, and offers an opportunity for greater, and more technically accurate understanding of text.

[AATW]

Punchline being, once you are Spirit like the Father in Heaven, biblical scripture becomes much more understanding as too it's intentions.

And you genuinely think a book which has the aim I mentioned above in Timothy is trying to teach you about the shape of the earth? OK...

I would never allow one without true salvation interpret it's meaning for me.

So, I don't know if that's aimed at me. Who are you to judge who has salvation? You might want to have a look at that log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in other people's.
I'm pretty secure in my own salvation as are the people at my church, none of us (as far as I know) interpret the Bible the way you do. Do the people in your church agree with you?
Most Christians don't. It's interesting to think that you are the one who has salvation and is spirit filled and understands Scripture. That's a pretty arrogant claim.

I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly above, if you choose to ignore all that and just maintain that you're the one who understands Scripture then fine. I'd suggest a little self-reflection is needed though.

[J-Man]

Punchline being, once you are Spirit like the Father in Heaven, biblical scripture becomes much more understanding as too it's intentions.

And you genuinely think a book which has the aim I mentioned above in Timothy is trying to teach you about the shape of the earth? OK...

I would never allow one without true salvation interpret it's meaning for me.

So, I don't know if that's aimed at me. Who are you to judge who has salvation? You might want to have a look at that log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in other people's.
I'm pretty secure in my own salvation as are the people at my church, none of us (as far as I know) interpret the Bible the way you do. Do the people in your church agree with you?
Most Christians don't. It's interesting to think that you are the one who has salvation and is spirit filled and understands Scripture. That's a pretty arrogant claim.

I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly above, if you choose to ignore all that and just maintain that you're the one who understands Scripture then fine. I'd suggest a little self-reflection is needed though.

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian. The simple fact is once you accept this gift of salvation, shortly down the line you will receive the Holy Spirit, ie Gods Word. He will answer your questions as to ALL TRUTH. Who better than the creator of everything to give you answers?

I never read what church you attend, maybe you attend a satanist church? I didn't see you proclaim Jesus as God, did I? or the The Fathers Son who gave his life on the cross so we could have eternal life.

The Holy Spirit (God) can give us Gifts and or Fruits, you can look them up, nothing arrogant about it. What is arrogant is I hope he give me a big ass sword to slay some demons when it's payback time

[stack]

Punchline being, once you are Spirit like the Father in Heaven, biblical scripture becomes much more understanding as too it's intentions.

And you genuinely think a book which has the aim I mentioned above in Timothy is trying to teach you about the shape of the earth? OK...

I would never allow one without true salvation interpret it's meaning for me.

So, I don't know if that's aimed at me. Who are you to judge who has salvation? You might want to have a look at that log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in other people's.
I'm pretty secure in my own salvation as are the people at my church, none of us (as far as I know) interpret the Bible the way you do. Do the people in your church agree with you?
Most Christians don't. It's interesting to think that you are the one who has salvation and is spirit filled and understands Scripture. That's a pretty arrogant claim.

I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly above, if you choose to ignore all that and just maintain that you're the one who understands Scripture then fine. I'd suggest a little self-reflection is needed though.

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian. The simple fact is once you accept this gift of salvation, shortly down the line you will receive the Holy Spirit, ie Gods Word. He will answer your questions as to ALL TRUTH. Who better than the creator of everything to give you answers?

I never read what church you attend, maybe you attend a satanist church? I didn't see you proclaim Jesus as God, did I? or the The Fathers Son who gave his life on the cross so we could have eternal life.

The Holy Spirit (God) can give us Gifts and or Fruits, you can look them up, nothing arrogant about it. What is arrogant is I hope he give me a big ass sword to slay some demons when it's payback time

What is a non-Jesus-believing Christian?  Is there such a thing?

"Christianity is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." wikipedia

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

You seem very judgy.

[AATW]

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian.

You assume wrongly. And the church I go to subscribes to this.

https://yfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Evangelical-Alliance-Statement-of-Faith.pdf

[J-Man]

Punchline being, once you are Spirit like the Father in Heaven, biblical scripture becomes much more understanding as too it's intentions.

And you genuinely think a book which has the aim I mentioned above in Timothy is trying to teach you about the shape of the earth? OK...

I would never allow one without true salvation interpret it's meaning for me.

So, I don't know if that's aimed at me. Who are you to judge who has salvation? You might want to have a look at that log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in other people's.
I'm pretty secure in my own salvation as are the people at my church, none of us (as far as I know) interpret the Bible the way you do. Do the people in your church agree with you?
Most Christians don't. It's interesting to think that you are the one who has salvation and is spirit filled and understands Scripture. That's a pretty arrogant claim.

I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly above, if you choose to ignore all that and just maintain that you're the one who understands Scripture then fine. I'd suggest a little self-reflection is needed though.

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian. The simple fact is once you accept this gift of salvation, shortly down the line you will receive the Holy Spirit, ie Gods Word. He will answer your questions as to ALL TRUTH. Who better than the creator of everything to give you answers?

I never read what church you attend, maybe you attend a satanist church? I didn't see you proclaim Jesus as God, did I? or the The Fathers Son who gave his life on the cross so we could have eternal life.

The Holy Spirit (God) can give us Gifts and or Fruits, you can look them up, nothing arrogant about it. What is arrogant is I hope he give me a big ass sword to slay some demons when it's payback time

What is a non-Jesus-believing Christian?  Is there such a thing?

"Christianity is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." wikipedia

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

You seem very judgy.

Yes a weakness of mine, although satan is a pretty tricky guy, sheep in wolves clothing thang. Trust everyone but cut the cards I say.....

[J-Man]

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian.

You assume wrongly. And the church I go to subscribes to this.

https://yfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Evangelical-Alliance-Statement-of-Faith.pdf

I guess the question is, do you believe in those things? It's very nice that your church does. Some people just find it difficult to proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior. I'm not one of those with all my faults.

[AATW]

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian.

You assume wrongly. And the church I go to subscribes to this.

https://yfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Evangelical-Alliance-Statement-of-Faith.pdf

I guess the question is, do you believe in those things? It's very nice that your church does. Some people just find it difficult to proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior. I'm not one of those with all my faults.

I wouldn't go to a church which was promoting things I didn't subscribe to.
Listen, dude, we have different interpretations of Scripture. And that's fine, it happens.
Just stop pretending that you are uniquely Spirit filled and yours is the right interpretation.

[markjo]

If you want to quote mine the Bible, then you can find support pretty much anything you want, including genocide, dragons and unicorns.

[J-Man]

I can only assume you are not a Jesus believing Christian.

You assume wrongly. And the church I go to subscribes to this.

https://yfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Evangelical-Alliance-Statement-of-Faith.pdf

I guess the question is, do you believe in those things? It's very nice that your church does. Some people just find it difficult to proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior. I'm not one of those with all my faults.

I wouldn't go to a church which was promoting things I didn't subscribe to.
Listen, dude, we have different interpretations of Scripture. And that's fine, it happens.
Just stop pretending that you are uniquely Spirit filled and yours is the right interpretation.

You mad bro? We should move on from this, earth is flat and scripture proves it. I didn't uniquely claim Spirit filled, in fact I explained all get on salvation in time, each to different degrees. We'll all have different jobs in heaven, some more important than others.

You have said science is the way to truth on this flat. Wrong, no faith bro? If God said come, walk off the boat, you won't sink, you would get your science book out and say no way?  Don't be, ye of little faith, have it and don't take pages to proclaim it. This is not Paul writing Timothy from prison about his evangelizing the world. Paul is simply explaining how to win souls not if the earth is flat. So yes, we disagree on interpretation.