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Offline Iceman

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2021, 02:27:00 PM »
How on earth was it necessary to quote 5  entire posts just to write those 5 sentences?

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Offline stack

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2021, 04:37:24 PM »
Yeah, just interpreting very clear cut statements as to what you want them to mean is typical.

As if they ever went to the supposed dark side.

Armstrong and Collins were quite clear.

They never saw stars.

Perhaps the reason is more in line with the fact they never went to the moon to begin with.

I take it you and only you can the sky awash with stars during the day. Congratulations on your super power.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2021, 07:11:40 PM »
Yeah, just interpreting very clear cut statements as to what you want them to mean is typical.

As if they ever went to the supposed dark side.

Armstrong and Collins were quite clear.

They never saw stars.

Perhaps the reason is more in line with the fact they never went to the moon to begin with.

I take it you and only you can the sky awash with stars during the day. Congratulations on your super power.
Since you understand that seeing stars in the light of day is nigh impossible (more to do with sunlight diffusing throughout the atmoplane) I am surprised you would adopt a totally subjective (and highly erroneous) interpretation of the statements, rather than simply taking them at face value.

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Offline stack

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2021, 10:38:31 PM »
Yeah, just interpreting very clear cut statements as to what you want them to mean is typical.

As if they ever went to the supposed dark side.

Armstrong and Collins were quite clear.

They never saw stars.

Perhaps the reason is more in line with the fact they never went to the moon to begin with.

I take it you and only you can the sky awash with stars during the day. Congratulations on your super power.
Since you understand that seeing stars in the light of day is nigh impossible (more to do with sunlight diffusing throughout the atmoplane) I am surprised you would adopt a totally subjective (and highly erroneous) interpretation of the statements, rather than simply taking them at face value.

What's this about how it's the atmosphere that makes it so we can't see stars during the day? Seriously? How about providing a source for that.

I did take the press conference at face value. They were specifically asked if they could see stars, "despite the glare".  Armstrong said no. Collins immediately responded with no as well.  So the question was, can you see stars despite the daytime glare. The answer is no, not in the daytime. Seems reasonable.

Collins goes on in his book to say that the dark side of the moon was "awash with stars..."

So yeah, in daytime, in the glare of the moon, you can't see stars. In the nighttime you can. Just like here on earth - I don't remember seeing stars in the glare of daytime earth either. Imagine that.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2021, 11:18:46 PM »

What's this about how it's the atmosphere that makes it so we can't see stars during the day?

Everyone knows the atmosphere goes away at night, which is why we see stars at night. Nothing to do with any other bright things out there...

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Offline stack

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2021, 07:08:20 AM »

What's this about how it's the atmosphere that makes it so we can't see stars during the day?

Everyone knows the atmosphere goes away at night, which is why we see stars at night. Nothing to do with any other bright things out there...

Yeah, my bad. I forgot the whole "Night time disappearing atmosphere" thing...Good thing Lackey didn't though.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2021, 11:39:04 AM »
What's this about how it's the atmosphere that makes it so we can't see stars during the day? Seriously? How about providing a source for that.
Damn, I'm quite used to the RE zealots complaining about high school science being hard, but this is primary school/daycare level of knowledge.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/the-universe/81-the-universe/stars-and-star-clusters/stargazing/735-why-can-t-you-see-stars-during-the-day-beginner
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question52.html
http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2974 (answer 6 will be particularly helpful to address your specific error, together with the two links above)

How on Earth can we have any meaningful conversation when one side of the debate doesn't know what "day" is, or why the sky is blue? Sort yourselves out.

Everyone knows the atmosphere goes away at night, which is why we see stars at night. Nothing to do with any other bright things out there...
Yeah, my bad. I forgot the whole "Night time disappearing atmosphere" thing...Good thing Lackey didn't though.
A super-duper-friendly smiley face reminder that your lacks in preschool education do not make you exempt from the rules. You're posting in the upper - act like it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 11:55:04 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Iceman

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2021, 12:23:59 PM »
A fair warning.

But the point remains, Rayleigh scattering is the particles in the atmosphere interacting with sunlight to give the atmosphere a bright blue colour. When the earth blocks incoming light from the sun, starlight and reflected light off the moon reach is pretty well, despite the atmosphere still being present.

Obviously you're right, the sky is blue because our atmosphere, but if there was no sunlight, there would be no blue. Just as its laid out in the link you provided. Hence, the reason we dont see stars in the day, other than our own sun, is because of the sun, not the atmosphere.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2021, 12:40:04 PM »
A fair warning.

But the point remains, Rayleigh scattering is the particles in the atmosphere interacting with sunlight to give the atmosphere a bright blue colour. When the earth blocks incoming light from the sun, starlight and reflected light off the moon reach is pretty well, despite the atmosphere still being present.

Obviously you're right, the sky is blue because our atmosphere, but if there was no sunlight, there would be no blue. Just as its laid out in the link you provided. Hence, the reason we dont see stars in the day, other than our own sun, is because of the sun, not the atmosphere.
Wrong.

It is because of the interaction of the sunlight and the atmoplane.

You should just stop.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2021, 01:24:14 PM »
Regardless of chosen suffix, I'm glad we both agree the sun is the root cause.

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2021, 01:28:51 PM »
Regardless of chosen suffix, I'm glad we both agree the sun is the root cause.
Regardless of chosen suffix, demonstrate the sunlight is the root.

Got proof the chicken was first somewhere?

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2021, 01:37:13 PM »
I demonstrate it every time I look upward at night while breathing.

And to link it back to the meat of this thread, astronauts proved it while on the daytime side of the moon (no stars) vs the dark side of the moon (many stars).

Atmosphere is a player, but not the cause.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2021, 01:50:14 PM »
Obviously you're right, the sky is blue because our atmosphere, but if there was no sunlight, there would be no blue. Just as its laid out in the link you provided. Hence, the reason we dont see stars in the day, other than our own sun, is because of the sun, not the atmosphere.
I was very careful in choosing sources to address this suggestion pre-emptively. It would seem that astronomers want children to think otherwise.

If you were standing on the Moon, for instance, where there is no atmosphere, you would see the stars both day and night.
If the Earth had no atmosphere, then our daytime sky would be black like at night, except the sun would be a huge spotlight shining down at us. In such an unpleasant world we might see stars during the day. But since we have an atmosphere, the sun's light scatters and gives us a beautiful blue glow from all over, not just from where the sun is. In other words, even if you look away from the sun you are still seeing the sun's light that has bounced off of some particle in the atmosphere, and that light is much brighter than the light from the stars.

If the atmosphere is a not a factor, let alone the leading factor, then why do astronomers and scientists at Cornell and UCSB tell our children that it is one? It looks like they've been doing it for decades, too! What dastardly plan are they up to this time?

Don't forget that the "sun is bright" excuse is being applied to the Moon here, not just Earth. The presence of an atmosphere, and whether or not it has any bearing on the stars' visibility, is absolutely essential.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 01:54:55 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Action80

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2021, 01:53:03 PM »
I demonstrate it every time I look upward at night while breathing.

And to link it back to the meat of this thread, astronauts proved it while on the daytime side of the moon (no stars) vs the dark side of the moon (many stars).

Atmosphere is a player, but not the cause.
Aside from Pete's well formed response, I would continue the query as to the sunlight being the cause in this fashion.

If it is the sunlight causing the stars to disappear, then why comets?

Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2021, 02:05:20 PM »
I found this:

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-stars-cannot-be-seen-while-on-the-moon

It basically says that it is difficult (but not impossible) to see the stars during daytime while on the moon.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2021, 02:19:24 PM »
If we go back to the answers provided in the link pete provided in reply 46:

Answer 1: "During the day the stars are still there, you just can't see them because the sky is so bright."

Answer 2: "Try noticing the sky at night during the next month.Compare how many stars you can see now, when the moon is not up (until around midnight or later), to a few weeks from now when the moon is full again. Now imagine having the sun in the sky instead of the full moon. How many stars do you think you should be able to see?"

Answer 3: "The reason that you cannot see stars during the daytime is that the sun's rays overpower the faint light we see from the stars."

Answer 4: "So the first problem is that your eye -- to allow you to see, will reduce its sensitivity when there is bright light present."

Answer 5: "The reason we can't see the stars during the day is because when the sun is up, it is so much brighter than the stars that our eyes can't pick them out of the sky."

Answer 6: "In the day the stars are still there, but you cannot see them because they are so much fainter than the sunlight that is scattered by our atmosphere."

Answer 7: "There are at least two problems with observing stars during the day time. First, stars are very faint compared to the light from the sun...Nevertheless, it is possible to see some stars in daylight. The stars must be bright, such as Sirius, Arcturus, Vega, Capella, Rigel, etc."

At no point did I say the atmosphere isnt a factor. But the sun is the root cause.

In the Cornell link it says as much as well. It also says you could see stars during the daytime on the moon. Obviously that counters what I've been saying and I dont have the willingness to say that's wrong, but I do wonder if we're getting enough context from that short portion of the quote, i.e. are they visible everywhere you look or only if you look away from or block the moon's reflective surface and the sun itself.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2021, 03:15:34 PM »
At no point did I say the atmosphere isnt a factor.
Indeed, that was stack. Recall what we're responding to:

What's this about how it's the atmosphere that makes it so we can't see stars during the day? Seriously? How about providing a source for that.

But the sun is the root cause.
Evidently, this is not the case, since the sources we both agree are reasonable state that a scenario in which harsh sunlight + visible stars is perfectly plausible. It is the presence of an atmosphere that uniquely distinguishes between sunlight + visible stars and sunlight + inability to see stars.

In the Cornell link it says as much as well. It also says you could see stars during the daytime on the moon. Obviously that counters what I've been saying and I dont have the willingness to say that's wrong, but I do wonder if we're getting enough context from that short portion of the quote, i.e. are they visible everywhere you look or only if you look away from or block the moon's reflective surface and the sun itself.
That appears entirely irrelevant to stack's flippant dismissal of basic knowledge he should have gathered around the age of 4-7. To say that the Earth scenario and the Moon scenario are analogous is demonstrably incorrect, and to demand sources to show that the atmosphere disperses sunlight, causing starlight to be obscured is a ridiculous attempt at disruption. It deserves to be called out as such.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 03:18:38 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Action80

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2021, 03:22:14 PM »
I found this:

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-stars-cannot-be-seen-while-on-the-moon

It basically says that it is difficult (but not impossible) to see the stars during daytime while on the moon.
Yeah.

Quora versus Cornell.

And I am almost positive the Quora response was submitted by Rama, who has been to outer space.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 04:09:28 PM by Action80 »

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2021, 01:22:43 AM »
In the Cornell link it says as much as well. It also says you could see stars during the daytime on the moon. Obviously that counters what I've been saying and I dont have the willingness to say that's wrong, but I do wonder if we're getting enough context from that short portion of the quote, i.e. are they visible everywhere you look or only if you look away from or block the moon's reflective surface and the sun itself.
That appears entirely irrelevant to stack's flippant dismissal of basic knowledge he should have gathered around the age of 4-7. To say that the Earth scenario and the Moon scenario are analogous is demonstrably incorrect, and to demand sources to show that the atmosphere disperses sunlight, causing starlight to be obscured is a ridiculous attempt at disruption. It deserves to be called out as such.

Apologies for being flippant. I wasn't intending to disrupt I was just, well, being flippant.

In any case, I contacted Dr. Kornreich, the professor who answered the question you cited (http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/the-universe/81-the-universe/stars-and-star-clusters/stargazing/735-why-can-t-you-see-stars-during-the-day-beginner) at Cornell's "Ask An Astronomer" asking him to clarify what he wrote. Specifically the part, "If you were standing on the Moon, for instance, where there is no atmosphere, you would see the stars both day and night."

I didn't expect a response, but he got back to me right away which is amazingly cool. Here's what I asked:

"Hello,
I was reading an answer on Ask An Astronomer that I believe you wrote. The question was, "Why can't you see stars during the day?". I'm trying to settle a debate with an Apollo denier friend of mine.
Specifically, the notion of whether the astronauts could see stars from the lunar surface. Looking at transcripts and such, they said that they couldn't see stars due to the glare, which I believe to be true. However, my friend found your response to the above question and is using that as his claim that the astronauts were lying. Here is what you wrote as part of your response: "If you were standing on the Moon, for instance, where there is no atmosphere, you would see the stars both day and night."
My understanding is that the Apollo astronauts could only see stars from the lunar surface when they themselves were in shadow (Ex., behind the LM) or when orbiting around the dark side of the Moon.
His point is that earth's atmosphere is what makes it so that we can't readily see stars during the daytime and that the Moon w/o an atmosphere makes it so you actually can readily see stars from the daylight side surface.
So the question is, could the Apollo astronauts see stars from the daytime Moon surface (when not in shadow) because there is no atmosphere? Basically I'm looking for a clarification of your answer I referenced above.
"

Here's his response:

"Yes it is and was possible to see stars during the day on the Moon. But also yes, you would need to shade your eyes from the Sun because eyes don’t have the dynamic range (no camera does) to see the Sun and stars at the same time. In the Apollo 17 mission logs, Gene Cernan writes at some length about shading his eyes from the Sun with his hand in order to see the stars. I’m sure you can find that online somewhere if you search diligently enough."



Based upon his suggestion, I scoured the web for the Apollo 17 logs and found them. Here's what I think Dr. Kornreich was referring to:

113:19:58 - [Schmitt - "We couldn't see the stars out the window or when we were out on the surface. It took the collimation of the telescope to eliminate all of the reflected light reaching your eye from your surroundings. Even in the LM shadow, there were too many bright things in your field-of-view for the stars to be visible."]

[A telescope - or any long, straight tube - admits only light rays coming from a small range of directions. The light rays that reach the end of the tube are virtually parallel to each other and to the long axis of the tube and, therefore, have been "collimated".]

[Cernan - "When you were in the lunar module, looking out the window, you certainly couldn't see stars. Using the telescope was sort of like being in a deep well; it cut out all the reflected light and let you see the stars. It was also generally true that, when you were on the surface in the LM's shadow, there were too many bright things in your field-of-view for the stars to be visible. But I remember that I wanted to see whether I could see stars, and there were times out on the surface when I found that, if you allowed yourself to just focus and maybe even just shielded your eyes to some degree, even outside the LM shadow you could see stars in the sky. And, quite frankly, under the right conditions here on Earth on a bright sunlit day, you can do the same thing. I could see stars through my helmet visor; not easily, but it can be done."]

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17.postland.html

So all in all, interesting stuff that one can make of it what they will. Some extra context always helps.

Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2021, 07:38:45 AM »
Quora versus Cornell.

I do not think that it conflicts the information in the other links that were posted.

However, I cannot verify if what is mentioned in the link is correct as I do not have the necessary knowledge.
I only posted it as it is on topic and it offers some additional information.