devils advocate

Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 11:18:29 AM »
Free speech is about context too. The things I say quite legally, morally and rightfully whilst doing it with my wife would be completely unacceptable to say to her in the school playground when we are picking up the kids.

Sure, some people have issues with the Jews for example, and from an Arab POV the Jews have and are still today committing crimes so some of these issues are quite valid. The existence of these anti-Jew statements are therefore valid, moral and quite righteous. However.......should someone go into a packed synagogue and say them? Or go into a Jewish school and tell the kids? No.

The issues are against certain individual Jews therefore if someone has an issue with them they should tell them personally not just any random people who share their faith.

*note I am only using the Jews as an example as they are referenced in the OP. I don't want to be falsely labelled as anti Jewish (I think ALL religions are piles of shit and should be scrapped)

Offline Roger G

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Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2017, 11:50:22 AM »
Government shouldn't get involved much at all in group politics, but if it should, it shouldn't just be to protect minorities from the majority, but also to protect the majority or other minorities from minorities.

You shouldn't have it only your way, if you want government to protect minorities from 'unreasonable' criticism, than government should also protect the majority from 'unreasonable' criticism, if you want want government to promote and orient its policy around 'reasonable' criticize of the majority, than it should promote and orient its policy around reasonable criticism of minorities.

You are unfortunately missing one basic fundamental point. In a democracy, YOU control the government, you can change it, that's what the vote is all about and how Trump got in. You can never let individuals take control and decide what is acceptable as criticism, because those with the biggest fists, knives or guns will wrest the control from the weaker individuals and shout down and intimidate all opposition. Look at ISIS if you want to see a modern example.

Roger
It's not that I missed your point about democracy, it's that I wasn't sure what point you were making, it sounded like you were saying we should just trust the 'experts' and let them decide everything, and not even have a democracy, or that a democracy was only right insofar as it trusted the experts.

Ideally we're a democracy, but really our government is often out of our control.
For example are you sure most people think you shouldn't be able to question the 'holocaust', or that most people want immigration, period, let alone millions of 'refugees', if that's even what they are?

If we're not allowed to criticize certain religions, like Islam, and the people who take it seriously (AKA extremists), as they grow in popularity in certain regions of the west, these people will run amok, change and flout our laws, and one day in the not so distant future they may even vote in a tyrannical government or stage a coup.
And then they'll be limiting our freedom of speech, and a whole lot more.

Lastly, I think there's a reason why freedom of speech is the first amendment in the US constitution, in a democracy it's perhaps the most fundamental freedom.
You see if you forbid people to speak for or against x, then to even suggesting that law be lifted, could itself be interpreted as speaking for or against x, and so we run the risk of banning some speech for all time, for setting something in stone.
I think having openly dialogue is really essential to what it means to be a democracy, you start limiting that, and you're basically saying citizens can't be trusted, or if it's only a few 'fools', if that's really what they are, that can't be trusted, you're still giving up the most important freedoms in a democracy, the freedom to come together, honestly and openly debate and discuss policy and the issues.
Nobody is saying you can't question things, but if you are unhappy about immigration, or various government policies then take the various democratic routes available to you to change the government and the people that have been voted in to represent you. Rabble rousing is how non democratic societies operate, in a democracy, the MAJORITY gets the say which is how it should be. That should follow balanced and reasonable discussion, not spewing out hate and threats anonymously across the internet.

I'm afraid that Holocaust denial has absolutely nothing to do with democracy or freedom of speech and everything to do with Racism and anti sematism. If you want to question the holocaust then research it properly and talk to some of the now ageing servicemen or their families, that found the concentration camps and thousands of piled corpses awaiting burning or burial. My Father was one of those soldiers and was too disgusted and horrified to discuss it with even decades later.  Talk to the survivors and descendants of some of the millions of Jews, Gypsies and mentally ill people who were slaughtered because they were despised because of the propaganda spouted out about them.

You want to talk about the immigration of the thousands of refugees and foreigners coming to the US, but America is almost completely built on immigration, Trump's family were German, where did your family come from? You're worried about Muslim immigrants taking your way of life, but I don't see you getting upset about the native American Indians being slaughtered, lands stolen off of them and forced into a Christian way of life. What about you standing up for the rights of millions of Black people in the US? Their ancestors were kidnapped from Africa and forced into slavery in the US at the hands of wealthy white people, are you standing up for their freedom of speech and the right to the same freedoms you have? The Ku Klux Klan had freedom of speech and white folks turned their backs while the rapes and murders were being carried out.

You really ought to look in your own backyard and research your own country's history and moral standards to really get your head around democracy and free speech and what place minority views have in your interpretation of it.

Roger

Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 08:52:08 PM »
Free speech is about context too. The things I say quite legally, morally and rightfully whilst doing it with my wife would be completely unacceptable to say to her in the school playground when we are picking up the kids.

Sure, some people have issues with the Jews for example, and from an Arab POV the Jews have and are still today committing crimes so some of these issues are quite valid. The existence of these anti-Jew statements are therefore valid, moral and quite righteous. However.......should someone go into a packed synagogue and say them? Or go into a Jewish school and tell the kids? No.

The issues are against certain individual Jews therefore if someone has an issue with them they should tell them personally not just any random people who share their faith.

*note I am only using the Jews as an example as they are referenced in the OP. I don't want to be falsely labelled as anti Jewish (I think ALL religions are piles of shit and should be scrapped)
Eric Dubay was posting his criticisms, right or wrong, on his blog, forum and youtube.
Of course youtube has the legal right to take them down if they think they're wrong, or even if they're just offended, but that's still a point against youtube, as a medium that ought to facilitate the free exchange of ideas and ideals and not pick sides.
So long as someone isn't promoting vigilante violence, they should leave it up there, it's not as if he was going up to random Jews on the street or in the synagogues and shouting, hurling insults at them.

We should be able to criticize the official story of the 'holocaust', in some western countries we're not presently able to, and we should be able to criticize Jews as an ethnoreligious group or any other ethnoreligious group.
While not every Jew is responsible for atrocities, crimes, lobbying and propaganda for their causes that sometimes arguably harms Whites, Christians, Arabs (race), Muslims (religion) and others, the Jewish race as a whole, is arguably more willing and able to act subversively than some other groups because of their power and how fiercely loyal to their tribe they are, and how suspicious of outsiders they are.

It's not just individual Jews acting independently of one another, but some Jews band together to further their interests at the expense of ours, and these lobbies, media, roundtables, thinktanks and so on, and elements of extremism present in the Jewish community at many levels, themselves need to be called out, not just individuals.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:07:50 PM by Antithecystem »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 08:55:59 PM »
roundtables ...
Elaborate on this one. What is a round table and what power do they wield?
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Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 10:06:52 PM »
@Roger

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Nobody is saying you can't question things, but if you are unhappy about immigration, or various government policies then take the various democratic routes available to you to change the government and the people that have been voted in to represent you. Rabble rousing is how non democratic societies operate, in a democracy, the MAJORITY gets the say which is how it should be. That should follow balanced and reasonable discussion, not spewing out hate and threats anonymously across the internet.
As far as I know Eric Dubay wasn't doing that, some-many of his claims may have been exaggerated or made up, but I don't think he was 'spewing hate and threats'.
Again, youtube has the legal right to do whatever it wants with their website, but morally, they should've left his channel and content intact.

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I'm afraid that Holocaust denial has absolutely nothing to do with democracy or freedom of speech and everything to do with Racism and anti sematism. If you want to question the holocaust then research it properly and talk to some of the now ageing servicemen or their families, that found the concentration camps and thousands of piled corpses awaiting burning or burial. My Father was one of those soldiers and was too disgusted and horrified to discuss it with even decades later.  Talk to the survivors and descendants of some of the millions of Jews, Gypsies and mentally ill people who were slaughtered because they were despised because of the propaganda spouted out about them.
Even if the official version of the 'holocaust' was broadly accurate, which has been disputed by revisionists (some of them Jewish themselves), because Jews dominate much of Hollywood and the MSM, their perspective of WW2 is shouted from the rooftops, where as the Slavic, Japanese, Gypsy, German and so on perspectives of events are marginalized.
Many genocides and atrocities have been committed around the world in the history of the world, but how many of their stories are being told on the big screen or in novels and plays?
Few and far in between.
Europeans are taught at school and by the MSM to cast their biases and bigotry aside, to empathize with the perspectives of others, but the Jewish perspective, particularly when it comes to WW2 and West Asia is also very prevalent in our culture, sometimes to the detriment of other groups and their concerns.

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You want to talk about the immigration of the thousands of refugees and foreigners coming to the US, but America is almost completely built on immigration, Trump's family were German, where did your family come from?
Regardless of where I and others who're already here came from, or how we got here, we're here now, and some of us, including some of my ancestors, have now been here for centuries.
We're citizens and new or would be arrivals are not, not yet, and so it should be up to us to decide how many immigrants we permit, and where from.
We don't owe them a living, and in many cases we're doing them and the corporations who take advantage of their cheap labor a favor.
I want to protect our environment, I want to protect jobs.
Europeans built their civilizations from the ground up without the aid of mass immigration, and North Americans can continue building ours without importing millions, if we wish, and many of us do.
And some ethnoreligious groups may be more compatible with our civilization than others.
I'm for reducing the quantity and increasing the quality of immigration, importing millions of 'refugees' from war torn countries we're at odds with, does just the opposite of that.


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You're worried about Muslim immigrants taking your way of life, but I don't see you getting upset about the native American Indians being slaughtered, lands stolen off of them and forced into a Christian way of life.
There are people who're upset about that, who feel called to help Native Americans maintain what's left of and rebuild their society, and they have my moral support, but importing millions of refugees from the middle east, isn't going to help Native Americans achieve their objectives at all.

Quote
What about you standing up for the rights of millions of Black people in the US? Their ancestors were kidnapped from Africa and forced into slavery in the US at the hands of wealthy white people, are you standing up for their freedom of speech and the right to the same freedoms you have? The Ku Klux Klan had freedom of speech and white folks turned their backs while the rapes and murders were being carried out.
I'm actually Canadian, we don't have a history of slavery here, we don't owe Afro-Canadians anything, but some still think we do.
Do native Italians, Scandinavians and Poles owe anyone anything?
They have little-no history of colonialism.
Many Non-European civilizations had a history of slavery, imperialism and militaristic expansion, do they owe anyone anything, before Europeans pushed for the worldwide abolition of slavery?
No one seems to be arguing they do.
If native Americans have a right to preserve their DNA and their heritage, aren't native Italians, Scandinavians, Poles and every European people, especially native European peoples, entitled to maintain theirs if they wish?
They ought to be.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 10:24:15 PM by Antithecystem »

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Offline juner

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Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2017, 02:15:28 PM »
Maybe it was the Jews trying to hide the truth.

Yeah go ahead and have some time off to review the rules.

Offline Roger G

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Re: Eric Dubay’s YouTube Channel Has Been Removed
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2017, 05:25:36 PM »
'Regardless of where I and others who're already here came from, or how we got here, we're here now, and some of us, including some of my ancestors, have now been here for centuries.
We're citizens and new or would be arrivals are not, not yet, and so it should be up to us to decide how many immigrants we permit, and where from.
We don't owe them a living, and in many cases we're doing them and the corporations who take advantage of their cheap labor a favor.
I want to protect our environment, I want to protect jobs.
Europeans built their civilizations from the ground up without the aid of mass immigration, and North Americans can continue building ours without importing millions, if we wish, and many of us do.
And some ethnoreligious groups may be more compatible with our civilization than others.
I'm for reducing the quantity and increasing the quality of immigration, importing millions of 'refugees' from war torn countries we're at odds with, does just the opposite of that'


If you really think that European countries were built from the ground up, you really ought to spend some time reading learning about European history. It wasn't called immigration in previous centuries, it was called invasion and conquest, with Just about every country in Europe and the Middle east being regularly repopulated from Roman times onwards. You are basing so many of your arguments on a shaky foundation of history knowledge that it becomes difficult to argue with you.

Roger