Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #400 on: March 08, 2016, 07:12:50 PM »
As I have said from the very start, Trump is reading a script, is acting out a role, that is all. He couldn't care less about America being great again, or about the wall at the border, or any other issue raised during the campaign; it is an act.

His main role is to prepare the way for someone else.




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Online Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #401 on: March 08, 2016, 07:26:16 PM »
As I have said from the very start, Trump is reading a script, is acting out a role, that is all. He couldn't care less about America being great again, or about the wall at the border, or any other issue raised during the campaign; it is an act.

His main role is to prepare the way for someone else.
But who and how?  Even if he drops out the day before the election, its not like Ted Cruz can suddenly be on the ballott.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #402 on: March 08, 2016, 07:43:26 PM »
I have carefully explained to all of you here which secret society is behind Trump's campaign, and how it is cooperating with a more powerful organization which has chosen one of its own as the GOP nominee.

Trump is creating a false sense of political novelty, which is being used to channel the votes and the energy to someone else.


Now, he is under a ceaseless barrage of attack ads paid for by super PACs, whose contribution runs in the tens of millions of dollars (ten million dollars being spent just in Florida).

The attacks against Trump are unprecedented in recent political history.

And yet, they bring to the public's knowledge facts which are absolutely true: the university scam, the NY Times tapes, the refusal to release the tax returns, and much more.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 07:51:58 PM by sandokhan »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #403 on: March 08, 2016, 08:18:31 PM »
DAMMIT DAVE WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #404 on: March 08, 2016, 08:22:55 PM »
DAMMIT DAVE WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS

Sorry sorry..
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #405 on: March 09, 2016, 12:47:06 AM »
it is "literally impossible" to balance the budget under trump's proposals.  his plan is demonstrably worse than the status quo.

Then hopefully he will change it as necessary.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #406 on: March 09, 2016, 06:11:46 AM »
it is "literally impossible" to balance the budget under trump's proposals.  his plan is demonstrably worse than the status quo.

Then hopefully he will change it as necessary.
If we go by his previous business ventures, he'll abandon it prior to completion.  Hope his VP pick is good.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #407 on: March 09, 2016, 08:38:43 AM »
Trump is an ass, that's true enough, but the problem is that all the other candidates are warmongering psychopaths, crazed loonies, or both.

Thusly I can conclude that Trump's personality is better than the other candidates as well.

As the bullfrog is a warmonger (bomb the shit out of them, shoot em with bullets dipped in pigs blood etc), clearly crazed and by your admission, an ass, WTF, change sides Rushy. You can do it, there is a wonderful green option in Jill Stein, we got to change track sooner or later, the corporate backed ass-holes will lurch from one mess to another salting away their billions while the world goes to shit, hoping that when it all goes tits up they can ride it out in a bunker you won't have an invite to. 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 10:14:40 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #408 on: March 09, 2016, 02:10:37 PM »
As the bullfrog is a warmonger (bomb the shit out of them, shoot em with bullets dipped in pigs blood etc), clearly crazed and by your admission, an ass, WTF, change sides Rushy. You can do it, there is a wonderful green option in Jill Stein, we got to change track sooner or later, the corporate backed ass-holes will lurch from one mess to another salting away their billions while the world goes to shit, hoping that when it all goes tits up they can ride it out in a bunker you won't have an invite to.

You seem to be under the impression I think being an ass is an undesirable quality. Trump's personality is amazing. He's the only candidate that I can sit there and listen to his entire speech. Just last night a reporter asked him a question about his mean language and he told the guy to sit back down and he moved on to another press question. Trump is amazing.

If we go by his previous business ventures, he'll abandon it prior to completion.  Hope his VP pick is good.

Is this in comparison to all of the vast successful executive expertise of his opponents? The only person with executive history in this race besides Trump is Hillary. Do you prefer Hillary, Dave?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:17:27 PM by Rushy »

Rama Set

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #409 on: March 09, 2016, 03:04:59 PM »

Is this in comparison to all of the vast successful executive expertise of his opponents? The only person with executive history in this race besides Trump is Hillary. Do you prefer Hillary, Dave?

Bernie Sanders was a 3-term mayor.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #410 on: March 09, 2016, 03:11:01 PM »
If we go by his previous business ventures, he'll abandon it prior to completion.  Hope his VP pick is good.

Can you please cite the ventures he's abandoned and ones he hasn't so that we can compare them side by side? Thanks.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #411 on: March 09, 2016, 03:24:28 PM »

Is this in comparison to all of the vast successful executive expertise of his opponents? The only person with executive history in this race besides Trump is Hillary. Do you prefer Hillary, Dave?

Bernie Sanders was a 3-term mayor.

TIL

Rama Set

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #412 on: March 09, 2016, 04:02:56 PM »

Is this in comparison to all of the vast successful executive expertise of his opponents? The only person with executive history in this race besides Trump is Hillary. Do you prefer Hillary, Dave?

Bernie Sanders was a 3-term mayor.

TIL


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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #413 on: March 09, 2016, 04:42:37 PM »


"Trump's personality is amazing. You seem to be under the impression I think being an ass is an undesirable quality."

Clearly not Rushy, clearly not!
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.


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Online Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #415 on: March 09, 2016, 08:45:13 PM »
If we go by his previous business ventures, he'll abandon it prior to completion.  Hope his VP pick is good.

Is this in comparison to all of the vast successful executive expertise of his opponents? The only person with executive history in this race besides Trump is Hillary. Do you prefer Hillary, Dave?
No, this is simply that when something happens that he can't control (such as expenses run over or legal issues crop up) Donald Trump, like any smart business man, will jump ship.
Just ask Scotland.



If we go by his previous business ventures, he'll abandon it prior to completion.  Hope his VP pick is good.

Can you please cite the ventures he's abandoned and ones he hasn't so that we can compare them side by side? Thanks.
I'm not sure I can. 
This one I'm most thinking of but not as abandoned as I thought:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/12/donald-trump-scotland-golf/421065/

And of course, this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-mortgage-failed-heres-what-that-says-about-the-gop-front-runner/2016/02/28/f8701880-d00f-11e5-88cd-753e80cd29ad_story.html

But eh.  Whatever.  Point is, he's a business man.  If there's no profit, why keep going?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #416 on: March 09, 2016, 09:26:21 PM »
"That's racist!" is not an acceptable response especially when Dave's quote didn't even mention a race.

This is the third time you've very, very liberally (and incorrectly) interpreted a criticism of Trump's attempts to pander to racist voters to mean nothing more than "That's racist/Trump's racist/You're racist."  Within the very same sentence, you turn on pedant-mode and insist that Mexico/Mexican is technically not a race in and of itself and therefore any discussion of race and racism is irrelevant - not the first time you've done that, either.  Setting the apparent hypocrisy of this aside, I'll respond to both claims:

Briefly addressing the latter point first, you're quibbling.  You know perfectly well what's meant when people talk about race and racism in this context.  Yes, technically, nationalities and ethnicities aren't races, but it's very common to colloquially refer to general bigotry and discrimination as racism.  Nobody's trying to trick you, nobody's trying to twist the argument into being about something it's not, they're just using everyday language in a casual sense.  I wouldn't use those terms in an academic paper or anything, but in an informal discussion like this, I really don't think it's unreasonable to just let it slide.

As for the racism charge, I'll drop the loaded phrasing and express my concerns seriously.  Trump's language feels like it's intended to appeal first and foremost to the lowest common denominator, ignorant, prejudiced people who know very little about politics beyond a knee-jerk fear of the unknown.  The way he talks about illegal immigration shows this most vividly.  There are plenty of reasons to want to crack down on illegal immigration, such as the importance of the rule of law, the impact on the economy (a subject that Trump, given his background, should be very qualified to talk about), etc., but Trump's position seems to be based more than anything else on the more sensational threat of the Mexicans being out to get us.  The immigrants are drug smugglers.  They're killers.  They're rapists.  That last one I know because, well, who else could it be that's doing the raping?  Oh, and the Mexican government is behind it all, they're deliberately sending us these people!

And his weird brand of nasty populism doesn't stop there.  There was the time he made up a story about seeing thousands of Muslims cheering in New Jersey after 9/11, which I would write off as him just mistaking some footage from Middle Eastern countries that were celebrating 9/11, if not for the fact that he doubled down on his claims when it was pointed out to him that both the media and police had no evidence of anything of the sort happening (and contrary to what certain websites have claimed, Trump has not been vindicated on this point, as discussed here).  He also championed the birther movement for a few years, and yes, I am absolutely calling the birthers racist to the core.  As I mentioned earlier, he was even hesitant to fully disavow the nuts in Boston who beat up a homeless man in his name, instead just giving a rambling response about how passionate and driven his followers are.  And finally, there's his Twitter account, which is full of delightful messages like this, this, and this.

That's what people are talking about when they mention Trump and racism.  Nobody is accusing Trump of calling for a return to segregated schools, or declaring white people the master race.  And personally, I don't think that he really believes all the garbage he says.  What he is doing, however, is nudging and winking at the bigots out there that make up his base, hinting to them that he shares their concerns about these people, while always leaving himself enough wiggle room to deny any racist intention if called out on it publicly.  But I think any reasonable person can connect the dots and figure out what the subtext is.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #417 on: March 09, 2016, 11:44:42 PM »


"Trump's personality is amazing. You seem to be under the impression I think being an ass is an undesirable quality."

Clearly not Rushy, clearly not!

Given that Rushy himself is something of an ass,  does this surprise you?  I have no doubt he looks up to Trump as a paragon of character.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #418 on: March 10, 2016, 12:21:11 AM »
This is the third time you've very, very liberally (and incorrectly) interpreted a criticism of Trump's attempts to pander to racist voters to mean nothing more than "That's racist/Trump's racist/You're racist."  Within the very same sentence, you turn on pedant-mode and insist that Mexico/Mexican is technically not a race in and of itself and therefore any discussion of race and racism is irrelevant - not the first time you've done that, either.  Setting the apparent hypocrisy of this aside, I'll respond to both claims:

Briefly addressing the latter point first, you're quibbling.  You know perfectly well what's meant when people talk about race and racism in this context.  Yes, technically, nationalities and ethnicities aren't races, but it's very common to colloquially refer to general bigotry and discrimination as racism.  Nobody's trying to trick you, nobody's trying to twist the argument into being about something it's not, they're just using everyday language in a casual sense.  I wouldn't use those terms in an academic paper or anything, but in an informal discussion like this, I really don't think it's unreasonable to just let it slide.

As for the racism charge, I'll drop the loaded phrasing and express my concerns seriously.  Trump's language feels like it's intended to appeal first and foremost to the lowest common denominator, ignorant, prejudiced people who know very little about politics beyond a knee-jerk fear of the unknown.  The way he talks about illegal immigration shows this most vividly.  There are plenty of reasons to want to crack down on illegal immigration, such as the importance of the rule of law, the impact on the economy (a subject that Trump, given his background, should be very qualified to talk about), etc., but Trump's position seems to be based more than anything else on the more sensational threat of the Mexicans being out to get us.  The immigrants are drug smugglers.  They're killers.  They're rapists.  That last one I know because, well, who else could it be that's doing the raping?  Oh, and the Mexican government is behind it all, they're deliberately sending us these people!

And his weird brand of nasty populism doesn't stop there.  There was the time he made up a story about seeing thousands of Muslims cheering in New Jersey after 9/11, which I would write off as him just mistaking some footage from Middle Eastern countries that were celebrating 9/11, if not for the fact that he doubled down on his claims when it was pointed out to him that both the media and police had no evidence of anything of the sort happening (and contrary to what certain websites have claimed, Trump has not been vindicated on this point, as discussed here).  He also championed the birther movement for a few years, and yes, I am absolutely calling the birthers racist to the core.  As I mentioned earlier, he was even hesitant to fully disavow the nuts in Boston who beat up a homeless man in his name, instead just giving a rambling response about how passionate and driven his followers are.  And finally, there's his Twitter account, which is full of delightful messages like this, this, and this.

That's what people are talking about when they mention Trump and racism.  Nobody is accusing Trump of calling for a return to segregated schools, or declaring white people the master race.  And personally, I don't think that he really believes all the garbage he says.  What he is doing, however, is nudging and winking at the bigots out there that make up his base, hinting to them that he shares their concerns about these people, while always leaving himself enough wiggle room to deny any racist intention if called out on it publicly.  But I think any reasonable person can connect the dots and figure out what the subtext is.

Twisting the very words we use into different meanings is a form of offense, Saddam. We see it everyday. We are given words that mean bad things and those bad things should make us feel bad. Racism, bigotry, xenophobia, transphobic, homophobic. Many people here, including even yourself, rule over an institution of shaming people into a certain belief system. It doesn't matter what that belief system is, but what matters is how we as a society arrive to that conclusion. It's no coincidence that the term "phobia" was co-opted into so many words. It means 'fear' and implying that someone is afraid of something implicitly means they are weak. You are afraid of other people. You are afraid of gays. You are afraid of transgenders. You are afraid.

What does this mean to the population as a whole? It means you've created an atmosphere of fear, not belief. The reason Trump does so terrible in closed caucus states is because voters are afraid to say "I'm voting for Trump" inside a huge crowd. The truth is that nothing changed what people believed. The current political parties have failed to tackle actual class and race issues. They failed because they don't want to. They failed because fear is the basic principle they've ensured society succumbs to. What fear results in is 'fight or flight' mode and now that fear has turned into rage. By shaming people into believing something, this nation has created a huge swath of pent up rage. Politicians don't talk about why racism is bad. They don't talk about why it exists in the first place. They don't talk about the roots of problems, they state the problem, and they state the solution, and then you just sort of have to believe that they can arrive at that solution somehow. All of them do this. All of them.

In the end, I'll need you to forgive me, but I'm attracted to that rage. The anger, the hate, the rage that Trump has tapped into is magnificent. What's so interesting about this is people like yourself would like to believe you were in the fight against racism, bigotry, or even xenophobia. You don't know why these things exist because you don't understand them. That's, what I believe, truly scares people when it comes to Trump. He has shown that vast swathes of these people still exist and they are very, very active, and you haven't the slightest goddamn clue how to stop them when the shaming stops working.

With that said, let's move over into the meat of Trump's policies. One thing we can be sure of, what Trump says, and maybe not necessarily what he believes, is pure unadulterated Nationalism. America is going to be made great again, fuck everyone else. That's something I can get behind. We have trade deficits with nearly the entire planet and 'free trade' deals have caused this to be one huge nation of consumerism. The bottom has fallen out of the manufacturing industries and nearly all jobs held by young people today are service jobs that require the lowest common denominator of intelligence. It also happens to be why wages are depressed and why our unemployment is still high. "but muh unemployment rate of 5%" well, oops, I guess it turns out that's because the Feds decided to count people who gave up looking for a job as 'employed'. The unemployment rate is now garbage. The only reasonable economic indicator is now the participation rate, which most people are more than happy to never mention is at 62.9% (http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000)

We have the highest corporate tax rates of any civilized country in the world. Even Sweden, the gem of Social Democracy, has a lower corporate tax rate than us. This means that corporations flee from the US as fast as they can. The rest of the world gets a pretty good deal, though. Just stick your headquarters in Ireland and all of that sweet sweet American consumerism funnels the ol' dollarydoos right into Irish government. America is quite literally giving economic welfare to everyone except Americans. This, by the way, is where Bernie gets his crazy 'effective corporate tax rate' because he is under the impression he can tax corporations that aren't headquartered in the US; Sanders counts the money given to the Irish as taxes America should have gotten. (http://taxfoundation.org/article/us-corporate-effective-tax-rate-myth-and-fact)

I could go on for a really long time. But ultimately the point is, Saddam, I don't care if you call me or Trump or his supporters racist or xenophobes or whatever you want because you can't tell me why. You think about the morality of a policy, not its actual impact, and so therefore your thoughts on the subject are irrelevant. You live in a 'reality has a liberal bias' world. A feels>reals world. So feel free to move to Canada with the rest of the feels peoples while their economy burns to ashes.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 12:23:44 AM by Rushy »

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #419 on: March 10, 2016, 01:13:22 AM »
yeah living in america fuckin sucks i wish i lived someplace that was beating us at the trade game like china or brazil those places are awesome i wish we were great like china

i hate that actual retarded people are taking over our contry
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