George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #920 on: July 10, 2016, 06:17:28 PM »
This is a "tu quoque" fallacy. You can't claim that it's unfair to want punishment for corrupt politicians because the politicians that want to punish her are also corrupt. You constantly try to argue from hypocrisy and I have to be here telling you that's not an argument. Mishandling classified information in Hillary's position gets people killed, and to no surprise, that's exactly what she's done. It's asinine to excuse her corruption because "other politicians are corrupt too!"

I'm not excusing anyone's corruption; I'm just disappointed by such selective enforcement of the law for the sake of a partisan agenda.  I'd be delighted if this was the beginning of a new era of zero tolerance and cracking down on all misbehavior from politicians, Republicans and Democrats alike, but it's not, and that overshadows the whole thing for me.

Quote
Stating things as a matter of fact doesn't make them any more factual, Saddam. As I said before, this is desperate grabbing for straws. "Trump has never outright said anything racist or anti-semitic, so I guess we'll just have to stretch whatever we can find to fit our narrative." - MSM



Of course this picture was made by racists and of course it was meant to refer to Jews. It's claiming that Jews have a cold frozen heart. This is just one of countless examples of a six pointed star shape being used in advertising.

You may be right here.  Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing any non-white people in Frozen beyond one or two anonymous faces in a crowd.  The racist tension.  I bet Disney is secretly backing Trump.

Offline Blanko

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #921 on: July 10, 2016, 06:22:45 PM »
I'm not excusing anyone's corruption; I'm just disappointed by such selective enforcement of the law for the sake of a partisan agenda.  I'd be delighted if this was the beginning of a new era of zero tolerance and cracking down on all misbehavior from politicians, Republicans and Democrats alike, but it's not, and that overshadows the whole thing for me.

Who are these politicians that are currently getting overlooked by law enforcement?

Offline Round fact

  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Science and math over opinion
    • View Profile
    • Starflight Publishing
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #922 on: July 10, 2016, 08:24:27 PM »
I'm not excusing anyone's corruption; I'm just disappointed by such selective enforcement of the law for the sake of a partisan agenda.  I'd be delighted if this was the beginning of a new era of zero tolerance and cracking down on all misbehavior from politicians, Republicans and Democrats alike, but it's not, and that overshadows the whole thing for me.

Who are these politicians that are currently getting overlooked by law enforcement?

Clinton, Kennedy, Jackson, and the tax evader, who's name I cannot seem to recall at the moment. Just of starters.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7282
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #923 on: July 10, 2016, 09:07:21 PM »
lol so just to be clear, you're comparing the cover of disney's frozen to /pol/ memes...

adorable

Clearly the same people who make /pol/ memes are making Disney book covers. The vast right-wing conspiracy never stops! Nazis everywhere! Walt Disney was a Nazi; coincidence? I think not!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 09:09:50 PM by Rushy »

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #924 on: July 10, 2016, 10:23:16 PM »
lol so just to be clear, you're comparing the cover of disney's frozen to /pol/ memes...

adorable

It's the same shape, no?

It's the combination of the star, the wording, the money, and the source. If he had found this:



You might have a point.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #925 on: July 10, 2016, 11:27:16 PM »
is there a point to this whole "similar shapes are similar" line of thought? 
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7282
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #926 on: July 11, 2016, 12:31:23 AM »
It's the combination of the star, the wording, the money, and the source.

Your ideas of what the ad is represents your own preconceptions about Jews. The only people who think this ad is inherently anti-semitic are either already anti-semitic themselves or trying to virtue signal by calling others out on innocuous ideas. You and others are falling for the very same stereotypes that anti-semites proliferated in the first place.

is there a point to this whole "similar shapes are similar" line of thought? 

The point is that it's a common shape used in ads. "But this time it means Jews!" is conspiratard level nonsense. I assume at any moment this thread will devolve how some Egyption heiroglyphs look like flying saucers so therefore aliens built the pyramids.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:36:23 AM by Rushy »

George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #927 on: July 11, 2016, 12:57:58 AM »
If the star wasn't racist when Frozen used it, then it can't be racist when /pol/ used it.  By the same logic, if Squidward from SpongeBob SquarePants having a big nose wasn't racist:



...then it can't be racist for a character like this to be drawn with a big nose:



Or maybe symbols mean different things in different contexts.  Who knows?

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7282
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #928 on: July 11, 2016, 01:36:01 AM »
If the star wasn't racist when Frozen used it, then it can't be racist when /pol/ used it.  By the same logic, if Squidward from SpongeBob SquarePants having a big nose wasn't racist:

...then it can't be racist for a character like this to be drawn with a big nose:

Or maybe symbols mean different things in different contexts.  Who knows?

You're right, Saddam. Both of those noses are polygons of exactly the same shape.

It'd be more like saying "Squidward has a big nose, and Jews stereotypically have big noses, therefore Squidward represents Jews. Spongebob is anti-semitic." I guess I'm better at uncovering the vast right wing conspiracy than you are, Saddam. I've already proven both Disney and Nickelodeon are anti-semitic. How deep does the rabbit hole go? Who will we find out is a Nazi next?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 01:42:12 AM by Rushy »

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #929 on: July 11, 2016, 01:54:52 AM »
The point is that it's a common shape used in ads.

You think /pol/ used that shape cuz it's common in ads? lol k.

Plus it isn't. It's not like this shape pops up all over the place. If it did, that'd be a different story.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7282
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #930 on: July 11, 2016, 02:03:56 AM »
You think /pol/ used that shape cuz it's common in ads? lol k.

What does it matter what /pol/ did? Are you saying the image is only anti-semitic if you happen to know who made it? Oh golly gee this is just nuts.

Plus it isn't. It's not like this shape pops up all over the place. If it did, that'd be a different story.

It actually is, it's even a default shape in most picture modification programs. The six pointed star has been around for millenia, it doesn't belong to Judaism. Take Microsoft Paint for example. It doesn't have a default cross, a default crescent, a default scimitar. Oh, but it has a six pointed star. I guess that means Microsoft is Jewish!

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #931 on: July 11, 2016, 02:17:27 AM »
You think /pol/ used that shape cuz it's common in ads? lol k.

What does it matter what /pol/ did? Are you saying the image is only anti-semitic if you happen to know who made it? Oh golly gee this is just nuts.

What I'm saying is that, even if it isn't meant to be anti-semitic (which I doubt), presidential campaigns should have the foresight and wisdom to properly vet the pictures they post on social media so they don't waste a news cycle that should be dominated by E-mail stories defending their use of a six-pointed star on an image of their opponent on a field of money being called corrupt. No other candidate is having issues sourcing material from racist sources. At a point you have to wonder why the Trump campaign has this unique issue.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #932 on: July 11, 2016, 02:18:32 AM »
that two symbols can have identical shapes and different meanings is such a ubiquitous phenomenon that it has its own name.  pretending to be unaware of this doesn't make one's argument better, only worse and more confusing.

The point is that it's a common shape used in ads. "But this time it means Jews!" is conspiratard level nonsense.

if /pol/ ever becomes an advertising agency, then i'll concede the point.  until then, you're comparing apples and white nationalist oranges.  there are no centuries-old stereotypes/conspiracies of jewish people hoarding ice princesses and exerting unseen control over winter castles, so i just don't see what frozen has to do with anything.  literally no one is saying that it's anti-semetic just because the star is six-sided.  it seems like you want to have a discussion with an entirely different group of people saying entirely different things.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

Offline Blanko

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #933 on: July 11, 2016, 05:11:48 AM »
that two symbols can have identical shapes and different meanings is such a ubiquitous phenomenon that it has its own name.  pretending to be unaware of this doesn't make one's argument better, only worse and more confusing.

This is only relevant if the shapes do have different meanings, which is clearly not what Rushy is arguing. Bad bait.

Quote
if /pol/ ever becomes an advertising agency, then i'll concede the point.  until then, you're comparing apples and white nationalist oranges.  there are no centuries-old stereotypes/conspiracies of jewish people hoarding ice princesses and exerting unseen control over winter castles, so i just don't see what frozen has to do with anything.  literally no one is saying that it's anti-semetic just because the star is six-sided.  it seems like you want to have a discussion with an entirely different group of people saying entirely different things.

It's pretty funny how deeply you can get leftists to think about anti-semitic stereotypes in order to craft a conspiracy theory like this. The point here is that if Disney were implicated in anti-semitic activity, I'm sure you could craft a similar narrative for Frozen as well. And if you can't - well, maybe you're not using your imagination well enough. But up until that happens, there's plenty reason to believe that you're only willing to apply a ridiculous amount of conjecture to one thing but not the other.


*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 6196
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #934 on: July 11, 2016, 08:11:49 AM »
Lord Dave. I always vote. IF I don't then I have right to complain about the crap congress and POTUS does.
I never said you didn't.

Just saying "good job for voting these people in.  Hows it working for ya?"
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Round fact

  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Science and math over opinion
    • View Profile
    • Starflight Publishing
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #935 on: July 11, 2016, 09:38:25 AM »
Lord Dave. I always vote. IF I don't then I have right to complain about the crap congress and POTUS does.
I never said you didn't.

Just saying "good job for voting these people in.  Hows it working for ya?"

Well I didn't vote for Obama, and I will NOT vote for Clinton. So for now, at least for POTUS my vote hasn't done much. For the House, my vote has worked. For Senate it is 50/50 and looks to remain so.

The issue of the subject of this thread, is just so much left wing bull shit deflection, in order to avoid the clear violations of the laws and regulations of Clinton's handling of classified materials and documents. And the fact that the DOJ, via the FBI is NOT doing its job by not prosecuting her. Or at the very least revoking her clearance.

The Star is just a star. Those that are doing mental gymnastics to see anti-semitic messages, are the ones that are anti-semitic, by assuming the star and money are greedy Jews. They see it, because they buy into it. They see it, because the race card is all they have in  their arsenal against Trump. They see it, because the race card is the last refuge of a bankrupt mind.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 6196
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #936 on: July 11, 2016, 11:21:21 AM »
Lord Dave. I always vote. IF I don't then I have right to complain about the crap congress and POTUS does.
I never said you didn't.

Just saying "good job for voting these people in.  Hows it working for ya?"

Well I didn't vote for Obama, and I will NOT vote for Clinton. So for now, at least for POTUS my vote hasn't done much. For the House, my vote has worked. For Senate it is 50/50 and looks to remain so.

The issue of the subject of this thread, is just so much left wing bull shit deflection, in order to avoid the clear violations of the laws and regulations of Clinton's handling of classified materials and documents. And the fact that the DOJ, via the FBI is NOT doing its job by not prosecuting her. Or at the very least revoking her clearance.

The Star is just a star. Those that are doing mental gymnastics to see anti-semitic messages, are the ones that are anti-semitic, by assuming the star and money are greedy Jews. They see it, because they buy into it. They see it, because the race card is all they have in  their arsenal against Trump. They see it, because the race card is the last refuge of a bankrupt mind.

And yet things are not better.  So your vote has not made anything better.

As for clinton: I agree.  But its likely there isn't enough evidence to actually convict.  And lets say they revoke her security, so what?  If she's president, she gets full clearance instantly.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #937 on: July 11, 2016, 12:35:20 PM »
Your ideas of what the ad is represents your own preconceptions about Jews. The only people who think this ad is inherently anti-semitic are either already anti-semitic themselves or trying to virtue signal by calling others out on innocuous ideas. You and others are falling for the very same stereotypes that anti-semites proliferated in the first place.

It's pretty funny how deeply you can get leftists to think about anti-semitic stereotypes in order to craft a conspiracy theory like this.

The Star is just a star. Those that are doing mental gymnastics to see anti-semitic messages, are the ones that are anti-semitic, by assuming the star and money are greedy Jews. They see it, because they buy into it.

Great new tactic, guys.  "No, you're the real racist!"  As if the stereotype of Jews being greedy and obsessed with money is some kind of obscure notion that requires all sorts of stretching and racist assumptions to arrive at.

Offline Blanko

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
    • View Profile
Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #938 on: July 11, 2016, 12:49:18 PM »
Great new tactic, guys.  "No, you're the real racist!"  As if the stereotype of Jews being greedy and obsessed with money is some kind of obscure notion that requires all sorts of stretching and racist assumptions to arrive at.

The Hillary picture doesn't depict either of those things

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #939 on: July 11, 2016, 02:56:15 PM »
that two symbols can have identical shapes and different meanings is such a ubiquitous phenomenon that it has its own name.  pretending to be unaware of this doesn't make one's argument better, only worse and more confusing.

This is only relevant if the shapes do have different meanings, which is clearly not what Rushy is arguing. Bad bait.

indeed.  i am saying that the shapes do have different meanings.  meaning is always contextual.  as i see it, you and rushy are arguing a reductio ad absurdum: the view that the hillary meme is anti-semetic necessarily leads to the absurd conclusion that the cover of frozen must also be anti-semetic.  the problem is that not one person is claiming that any use of a six-sided star is anti-semetic.

in other words, we're saying that it's reasonable for someone to believe that this particular use of these symbols, in this particular context (esp. its origin), reeks of long-standing and well-understood anti-semetic stereotypes and conspiracies.

"but someone else used one of these symbols in a completely different context for a completely different purpose!" doesn't actually address the criticism of this use of these symbols in this context.

It's pretty funny how deeply you can get leftists to think about anti-semitic stereotypes in order to craft a conspiracy theory like this. The point here is that if Disney were implicated in anti-semitic activity, I'm sure you could craft a similar narrative for Frozen as well. And if you can't - well, maybe you're not using your imagination well enough. But up until that happens, there's plenty reason to believe that you're only willing to apply a ridiculous amount of conjecture to one thing but not the other.

the hillary image isn't anti-semetic because what if under different circumstances i made a bad argument suggesting that the cover of frozen is anti-semetic?  what?

so this image can't be anti-semetic because you believe i would make different arguments about different things under different circumstances...i dunno how to respond to that...
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.