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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2021, 09:35:18 PM »
Why would they need to lie about it if there is no physical barrier preventing this from working on a FE?

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2021, 09:37:25 PM »
If the construction engineers were working with plans having the earth's curvature factored in and the earth was really flat, there would have been alarm bells going off all over the place during construction.  The beam tubes are thin material that has to stand up to a high vacuum.  The stresses are significant.  Most likely the structural engineers had a test jig with a laser on it and put it onto the end of the tube from time to time during construction to see if everything was going according to plan while they were building the tube.  That way little was left to chance.  I would have put stress gauges on the outside of the tube as additional level indicators.  If there's some abnormal bending stress indicated, something is going wrong. That would happen if the foundation was constructed assuming a curved earth and the earth was really flat. 
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2021, 09:40:41 PM »
How would the stress be different if the earth were flat and you were building a tube on a ramping foundation, versus if the earth were round and you were building a tube on a ramping foundation?

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Offline stack

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2021, 09:41:05 PM »
Why would they need to lie about it if there is no physical barrier preventing this from working on a FE?

Now I'm totally confused. The question is, why would the LIGO engineers take earth's curvature into account when designing it and make mention of that fact when constructing it if the earth is in fact flat and there would be no need to take earth's curvature into account when designing it and no need to make mention of that fact when constructing it?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2021, 09:41:47 PM »
Why would they need to lie about it if there is no physical barrier preventing this from working on a FE?

Now I'm totally confused. The question is, why would the LIGO engineers take earth's curvature into account when designing it and make mention of that fact when constructing it if the earth is in fact flat and there would be no need to take earth's curvature into account when designing it and no need to make mention of that fact when constructing it?

Because they think that the earth is round. It's not.

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Offline stack

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2021, 09:53:59 PM »
Why would they need to lie about it if there is no physical barrier preventing this from working on a FE?

Now I'm totally confused. The question is, why would the LIGO engineers take earth's curvature into account when designing it and make mention of that fact when constructing it if the earth is in fact flat and there would be no need to take earth's curvature into account when designing it and no need to make mention of that fact when constructing it?

Because they think that the earth is round. It's not.

Oh, I see. So they are just misinformed and did some unnecessary engineering. But here's where I'm confused. The wiki has this quote:

“The ends of each arm are actually situated several feet higher off the ground than their starting point at the center station. That’s to compensate for the Earth’s curvature.”

So are you saying that the engineers didn't really need to raise the starting and end points like they did as there is no real obstacle at the center station?

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2021, 09:56:02 PM »
Why would they need to lie about it if there is no physical barrier preventing this from working on a FE?

Now I'm totally confused. The question is, why would the LIGO engineers take earth's curvature into account when designing it and make mention of that fact when constructing it if the earth is in fact flat and there would be no need to take earth's curvature into account when designing it and no need to make mention of that fact when constructing it?

Because they think that the earth is round. It's not.

Do you have any evidence of this mistake? Where in their calculations and plans for the LIGO construction did they make this error?

To claim that thousands of scientists and engineers spending years of time and billions of dollars would make such a fundamental mistake there must be in-controversial evidence of their error.

They used high precision GPS measurements to build the flat concrete path for the tunnel to be built flat on top of. These measurements were adjusted for the curve of the Earth, so if there was no curve the tunnel would not be straight. It's not as simple as lifting one end of the tunnel.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2021, 11:44:04 PM »
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To claim that thousands of scientists and engineers spending years of time and billions of dollars would make such a fundamental mistake


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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2021, 11:44:08 PM »
To claim that thousands of scientists and engineers spending years of time and billions of dollars would make such a fundamental mistake



I'm aware of this effect. It is however not an answer to my question.

What evidence do you have that the construction of LIGO was incorrect in taking the Earths curvature into account?  Where in their plans did they make an error that you have spotted to determine they are wrong?  They claim they took the curvature of the Earth into account, you claim they are wrong, and I would like to see what evidence the LIGO project provided you with that you base your conclusions on.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2021, 11:49:45 PM »
To claim that thousands of scientists and engineers spending years of time and billions of dollars would make such a fundamental mistake



I'm aware of this effect. It is however not an answer to my question.

What evidence do you have that the construction of LIGO was incorrect in taking the Earths curvature into account?  Where in their plans did they make an error that you have spotted to determine they are wrong?  They claim they took the curvature of the Earth into account, you claim they are wrong, and I would like to see what evidence the LIGO project provided you with that you base your conclusions on.

I determined that they may have been wrong when you guys provided a scenario which you guys have now agreed is possible on an FE.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2021, 12:13:41 AM »
To claim that thousands of scientists and engineers spending years of time and billions of dollars would make such a fundamental mistake



I'm aware of this effect. It is however not an answer to my question.

What evidence do you have that the construction of LIGO was incorrect in taking the Earths curvature into account?  Where in their plans did they make an error that you have spotted to determine they are wrong?  They claim they took the curvature of the Earth into account, you claim they are wrong, and I would like to see what evidence the LIGO project provided you with that you base your conclusions on.

I determined that they may have been wrong when you guys provided a scenario which you guys have now agreed is possible on an FE.

The wiki was written well before this conversation so the evidence for it couldn't have come from today's discussion and I do not agree. I must assume then from your response that you do not in fact have any evidence from LIGO to suggest the scientists and engineers are wrong? You can not point out to where they made any mistakes in the design or construction of their facility?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2021, 12:58:05 AM »
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I do not agree

Then tell us why it is physically impossible on FE and stop trying to change the subject away from that or ask others to prove that someone is incorrect about something. Sounds like someone who can't defend their position that the earth needs to be round for this to work.

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Offline stack

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2021, 01:01:43 AM »
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I do not agree

Then tell us why it is physically impossible on FE and stop trying to change the subject away from that or ask others to prove the shape of the earth. Sounds like someone who can't defend their position that the earth needs to be round for this to work.

Who said it was impossible on a flat earth? The point is that the LIGO engineers determined and designed LIGO taking into consideration earth's curvature. They wouldn't have needed to if the earth were flat. The question is why did they bother to raise both ends to get over an obstruction at mid-station, design, build it that way? And your claim, I guess, is that there is no obstruction there and designing and building LIGO in such a way that they did was unnecessary. So how did you determine that it was unnecessary?

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2021, 01:04:35 AM »
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I do not agree

Then tell us why it is physically impossible on FE and stop trying to change the subject away from that or ask others to prove the shape of the earth. Sounds like someone who can't defend their position that the earth needs to be round for this to work.

If you are going to selectively quote me, please at least use full sentences and not just fragments without context. Thanks.

I do not agree with your conclusion because you have not provided any evidence that the LIGO engineers and scientists were wrong, or made any mistakes in their construction due to any errors. They have claimed they needed to compensate for the curvature of the Earth, and I simply ask how you determined they are wrong. The facility is well documented.

I have asked for you to provide the evidence you used to conclude they made an error, and you have not done so or indicated any mistake on their part. The facility indeed seems to function, and the tunnels and tubes are straight as they sit on a foundation that is curved, not just angled at one end.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2021, 01:08:46 AM »
Who said it was impossible on a flat earth?

It was implied when it was brought up to disprove FE. If you think it's possible on a FE then there is no physical impossibility and we're done here.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2021, 03:32:21 AM »
The LIGO experiment would work fine on a flat earth, in fact the construction of the beam tube foundations would be easier.  However, it was stated in the Caltech website that it was necessary to take the earth's curvature into account during construction because of the length of the beam tubes.  So either FES is correct and the earth is flat or the scientists & engineers at Caltech are.  Maybe they knew the earth was flat and lied on their website about the tube construction problems.  If that's true, then there's a conspiracy.  I think that if the FES wants to proclaim that the earth is flat and Caltech is mistaken then they need to come up with some evidence and demonstrate it to the world.   
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Offline stack

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2021, 08:14:54 AM »
Who said it was impossible on a flat earth?

It was implied when it was brought up to disprove FE. If you think it's possible on a FE then there is no physical impossibility and we're done here.

Yes, it was brought up to disprove flat earth (as many things are and vice versa to disprove a globe earth - That's kinda what is done around these parts, no?), but it wasn't brought up to say it couldn't work on a flat earth. That's where I think you're all flummoxed. And I don't understand what your conundrum is.

The question is: How did you determine that it was unnecessary for the LIGO engineers to take curvature of the earth into account when designing and constructing the site?


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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2021, 02:57:24 PM »
However, it was stated in the Caltech website that it was necessary to take the earth's curvature into account during construction because of the length of the beam tubes.  So either FES is correct and the earth is flat or the scientists & engineers at Caltech are.
Or they built a tube that follows FE+EA perfectly, while incorrectly assuming that they were accounting for the Earth's curvature - the most obvious conclusion.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline RonJ

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2021, 03:14:55 PM »
However, it was stated in the Caltech website that it was necessary to take the earth's curvature into account during construction because of the length of the beam tubes.  So either FES is correct and the earth is flat or the scientists & engineers at Caltech are.
Or they built a tube that follows FE+EA perfectly, while incorrectly assuming that they were accounting for the Earth's curvature - the most obvious conclusion.
How could they build a beam tube using FE+EA when no one knows the value of the Bishop constant?  It's hard to do a design without all the facts.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2021, 04:09:28 PM »
How could they build a beam tube using FE+EA when no one knows the value of the Bishop constant?
We've already been through this - they built their tube to work for the experiment. This would be accomplished without any knowledge of RE vs FE.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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