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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Rushy on January 16, 2021, 06:51:12 PM

Title: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on January 16, 2021, 06:51:12 PM
"Microsoft, Oracle and and other tech giants team up Covid-19 vaccine 'passports'"

Quote
Some of the country's biggest tech firms and health care organizations have joined together to help facilitate that return to "normal." The group, called the Vaccine Credential Initiative, wants to ensure that everyone has access to a secure, digital record of their Covid-19 vaccination — like a digital vaccine passport — that can be stored in people's smartphones. The records could be used for everything from airline travel to entering concert venues.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/16/tech/coronavirus-vaccine-records-microsoft-salesforce/index.html

I for one am glad that oversized tech companies are now being given power to whitelist people. I am certain that this system will not be abused in any way and mistakes will not be made. This will not set any dangerous precedents for private organizations to maintain deeper control over other people's activities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 16, 2021, 07:08:13 PM
I am disappointed not to see VISA, Experian, paypal, major banks, mortgage lenders and payment processors not involving themselves to nudge the public in the right direction with the threat of financial oblivion for the lepers who refuse the jabs. Refusal to take the jab should of course knock 500pts of your credit rating and make you ineligible for mortgages and loans. I hope the world of finance soon turns its attention with the help of government to make sure that people do the right thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 17, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
I have no issues with this.  Its no different than a digital drivers license, digital boarding passes, digital payment, etc...

Its basically big tech taking paper documentation (which you'd need to have on you) and making it a secure digital copy that officials will accept instead of a piece of paper you printed out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 17, 2021, 11:47:54 AM
I have no issues with this.
Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 17, 2021, 04:59:48 PM
I have no issues with this.
Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

It's more of a combination of things. Not just a big tech or big brother control. For instance, the example given, a concert venue may require some proof of vaccination to be allowed to enter. That's not a government thing, that's private sector stuff. One venue may require it, another may not. No one is holding a governmental gun to your head to get vaccinated. Areas of the private sector may determine on their own what their policy may be. Just like today, I am not allowed to get into an Uber without a mask. That's Uber's policy. Uber may decide in the future that I can't get a ride without proof of vaccination. It's their private sector call.

Already, States require proof of immunization to enroll kids in school. However, each State has varying degrees of opt-out criteria.

Maybe having a consolidated electronic record of everyone's vaccination status is the creepy part. But not everyone has electronic means. So maybe there will be something like that and other people will have to show some piece of paper from an MD that shows they were vaccinated. Or, perhaps the private sector will individually decide they don't require anything at all for someone to use their service. At the end of the day, it's a private sector call.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 17, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
I have no issues with this.
Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

This is false.  I hate Authoritarians, like Donald Trump.  (Seriously he IS an authoritarian.  Like as pure as you get). Plus, no one is telling anyone to get the future service so your argument is kinda worthless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 29, 2021, 03:22:10 AM
I am disappointed not to see VISA, Experian, paypal, major banks, mortgage lenders and payment processors not involving themselves to nudge the public in the right direction with the threat of financial oblivion for the lepers who refuse the jabs. Refusal to take the jab should of course knock 500pts of your credit rating and make you ineligible for mortgages and loans. I hope the world of finance soon turns its attention with the help of government to make sure that people do the right thing.

The "right thing"?!? Are you serious?

Revelation 13:16-17

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It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I want to be able to do business without having to have some sort of creepy license saying that I branded myself in loyalty to some sketchy medical cult for a "disease" when I have literally seen nobody coughing.  Now maybe you have, but when did it become your business? 
You believe that abortion is right, correct? What is it they always say? "My body, my choice"? So how is it your choice, to the extent where you think that having credit card companies act like Gestapo is okay?

This is the wrong thing, the absolute wrong thing, and you are evil. If someone told me this in person, I would hurt them. It's on the level of evil of torturing a puppy, and justifying it by saying you're doing tests.

Here's what happens when people don't want to "do the right thing."  They suffer for weeks and months then starve to death. 

What starving to death looks like.

 https://www.medicaldaily.com/now-entering-starvation-mode-what-happens-your-metabolic-processes-when-you-stop-feeding-280666

Quote
Your glucose stores may last you for up to 24 or 48 hours, though they will mostly be depleted after six hours. Then, not only will you be hangry, but your body will be entering a state of ketosis, which involves elevated levels of ketone bodies in your system. Ketone bodies are produced from fatty acids when liver glycogen is entirely depleted, and are used for energy.

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The rough part happens after 72 hours of no eating — this is the stage of autophagy. Once the fats are broken down, your body turns to breaking down protein in muscles, essentially wasting away your muscles. At this point, your brain’s requirement for glucose will have dropped from 120 grams per day to only 30 grams. But your brain will need to start getting energy from protein next. Breaking down protein and releasing amino acids into the bloodstream will produce more glucose; this transformation takes place in the liver, and your brain will be fueled by its much-needed glucose once again. Regardless, though your brain will be able to survive from protein, your muscles will slowly disappear.

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However, at a certain point, your immune system will be weakened due to lack of vitamins and minerals. Typically, two diseases can occur in end-stage starvation: marasmus and kwashiorkor.

(https://buddymantra.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Marasmus-281x300.jpg)

You want to wish this on people who don't follow your stupid vaccine rules, who suspect the vaccine may alter their genes or give them bad side effects.

Btw, there are already bad side effects.  Some lady had serious seizure-like spasms after taking this.  Others developed Bell's palsy.  So forgive me, but it is not right to force people to take a potentially dangerous "medicine".

I voted for Trump, now I'm skeptical. But I'm sure as hell sure that this is not the right thing.

https://unapologeticrepublican.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-convulsions-spasms-watch/
Spasms (btw, I had seizures as a child. No thanks)

https://gulfnews.com/world/americas/fda-finds-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-highly-effective-but-points-out-bells-palsy-cases-1.1608116485618
Bell's palsy

But yea, "to hell with your concerns, let's break your credit score."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on January 29, 2021, 05:38:16 AM
He was being ironic. Also, if anyone is interested, I received my first dose of the vaccine last week, because I am (supposedly) a first responder. I'll let you know if I die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2021, 05:38:53 AM
A mark on your forearm is not a hand or head.

A MAGA cap however...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 01:52:34 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2021, 02:17:08 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 02:32:59 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

Extend your reasoning to more people.

If only half the population gets the vaccine it's going to be useless. Remember it doesn't work 100%. If someone is surrounded by infected people, they will get it eventually, vaccine or not.  You need a very high percentage of the population to take it for it to work. You HAVE to get as many people on board.

You are mistaken in thinking that a vulnerable person is immune and perfectly fine if they get the vaccine. They are not. They are still at risk, from you. You can be healthy and catch COVID and spread it to other people, even if they are vaccinated.

Freedom is not absolute. You do not have the freedom to shoot me in the head for no reason. There are limits, and there are times when other freedoms, like the freedom not to die from a preventable disease that someone spreads because they feel their freedom is worth more than other peoples lives.

What is dangerous is allowing vaccinated people to go into packed planes and infect everyone. That's not freedom, that's deliberately choosing to harm others.

That at least, is how I see it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 02:37:48 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

I'm not going to give anyone too hard a time for being leery of the vaccine. I would say it's nowhere near as scary a prospect as it's being made out to be by some, but that's my take.

What I would say though, is that your reasoning, based on similarities to the flu vaccine, is flawed. You arent encouraged to get a yearly flu vaccine to protect yourself, a young healthy person. While it does offer you protection, giving you a personal benefit to getting vaccinated, the main reason for flu vaccination is to reduce the number of vulnerable people who catch it, so that we can collectively reduce the burden on our healthcare systems.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2021, 03:47:37 PM
I'm not going to give anyone too hard a time for being leery of the vaccine. I would say it's nowhere near as scary a prospect as it's being made out to be by some, but that's my take.

What I would say though, is that your reasoning, based on similarities to the flu vaccine, is flawed. You arent encouraged to get a yearly flu vaccine to protect yourself, a young healthy person. While it does offer you protection, giving you a personal benefit to getting vaccinated, the main reason for flu vaccination is to reduce the number of vulnerable people who catch it, so that we can collectively reduce the burden on our healthcare systems.
I don't think it's scary. When push comes to shove I'll probably have it. I just don't think it should be mandated.

I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

The reason Covid is a bad thing is that for older people, or for people with certain underlying health conditions, it has a significantly higher mortality rate than the flu.
That means a lot of people getting ill which places a big burden on health services and a lot of people dying which is obviously a bad thing.
Let's imagine no-one over 50 could get the disease then sure, this would be "a thing", some people would get ill and some would die, but not enough to make much of a blip in terms of general mortality stats. Certainly it wouldn't be something you'd want to shut down entire countries for (I'm not sure we should be doing that anyway, but that's a different discussion).

The point is if all the vulnerable people have the vaccine and it protects them from infection x% of the time then if x% is high then sure, some people will still get ill and some will die but as above it would hardly make a blip in the stats and wouldn't put an undue load on the health services. I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to infect anyone, if I did start showing symptoms then I'd stay home - actually I did do that when at the start of all this I had a bit of a cold (which I don't think was Covid, but it's possible).

I agree that freedom is not absolute but I can't think of another example where it's been suggested that a certain vaccine or medicine is mandated. That seems like a line which shouldn't be crossed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 04:41:25 PM
JSS is talking about herd immunity which requires somewhere around 70% immunity to be effective iirc. There are people who are vulnerable but can’t get vaccinated who rely on herd immunity for safety.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 04:47:30 PM
JSS - You get the vaccine, you are not immune.

JSS - If you get the vaccine, you can still pass it on to others.

JSS - We need to mandate the vaccine.

JSS - If you do not get the vaccine, you have no business conducting any business at all. Stay away.

One wonders how this could possibly be considered a legitimate position.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 05:22:08 PM
It’s more nuanced than your meme presentation of it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 05:48:12 PM
It’s more nuanced than your meme presentation of it.
Must be so nuanced you too are unable to elucidate further.

Looks like a case for the Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2021, 05:50:06 PM
Here's an argument for:
Mutations.

1 year ago there was only 1 varient.  Then 2.  Now there's 4.
The longer the virus remains in circulation, the more it will mutate.  Vaccines will need to be altered constantly.  This will become the new Flu shot.  Except its more deadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 05:52:39 PM
I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

I think what you are missing is you can get COVID, show no symptoms, and spread it to everyone you are in contact with for weeks.  Grocery stores, buses, planes, restaurants, and family members you visit.

By not taking the vaccine you are now a potential spreader to people who very well might die from it, and every one who gets it can spread it to others.

You are also ignoring all the evidence showing that even people who show no symptoms are suffering heart and lung damage, and we as of yet have no idea how the long term effects will play out.  You may be in serious trouble in ten years, we just don't know yet.

So yes, you might not get that obviously ill... but you are putting others in danger.  This is why you should get it, not just for yourself, but to help others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2021, 06:05:03 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 06:05:35 PM
I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

I think what you are missing is you can get COVID, show no symptoms, and spread it to everyone you are in contact with for weeks.  Grocery stores, buses, planes, restaurants, and family members you visit.

By not taking the vaccine you are now a potential spreader to people who very well might die from it, and every one who gets it can spread it to others.

You are also ignoring all the evidence showing that even people who show no symptoms are suffering heart and lung damage, and we as of yet have no idea how the long term effects will play out.  You may be in serious trouble in ten years, we just don't know yet.

So yes, you might not get that obviously ill... but you are putting others in danger.  This is why you should get it, not just for yourself, but to help others.
But according to you, if you get the vaccine, that is no guarantee of being immune and therefore not spreading it to others.

Therefore, other peoples' existence, by its very nature, poses a danger to you and others.

You are not making a very sound argument at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 06:15:32 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 06:20:27 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
"Maybe."

Seems like a very pertinent word, given the entirety of the article.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 06:30:25 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
"Maybe."

Seems like a very pertinent word, given the entirety of the article.

Maybe = not a 100% chance. Numerous professional athletes have struggled with lingering - non flu - symptoms of covid.

While the likelihood might be low, It doesnt matter how healthy you are, you still are at risk of lingering serious effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 06:44:44 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
"Maybe."

Seems like a very pertinent word, given the entirety of the article.

Maybe = not a 100% chance. Numerous professional athletes have struggled with lingering - non flu - symptoms of covid.

While the likelihood might be low, It doesnt matter how healthy you are, you still are at risk of lingering serious effects.
And we have been dealing with the issues of lingering side effects for all kinds of diseases in perpetuity.

This one for only a little over a year.

And it does matter how healthy you are.

According to the article.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 06:47:33 PM
Anyone pretending that 95% immunity makes the vaccine not worthwhile either doesn’t understand what vaccines do or is stuck in an echo chamber. No vaccine is 100% and the COVID vaccine will only become improved upon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 06:54:59 PM
We've been dealing with the side effects of complex diseases, yes, but do you think people arent working towards ending that?
People somehow forget that vaccines have eradicated terrible diseases off the face of the planet. Sure we still have cancer, aids, ALS and many more debilitating sicknesses... but we've also put some equally terrible diseases in society's rear-view mirror.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 29, 2021, 08:33:42 PM
People somehow forget that vaccines have eradicated terrible diseases off the face of the planet.
Incorrect.

Literally one disease was vaccinated off the planet. That was small pox. Literally one. Not diseases. Just disease.

Sure we still have cancer, aids, ALS and many more debilitating sicknesses... but we've also put some equally terrible diseases in society's rear-view mirror.
What are you talking about? Small pox. That is it. Literally not one other single disease and certainly never coronavirus. It won't be possible because it lives in wild animals ... exactly like TB which we also can't get rid of.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 08:40:05 PM
Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 29, 2021, 08:45:00 PM
Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
And that's probably the reason they haven't been eradicated. Imagine the money made from giving billion of people vaccines. Compared to the $0 received for vaccinating precisely nobody against small pox.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 08:48:00 PM
People somehow forget that vaccines have eradicated terrible diseases off the face of the planet.
Incorrect.

Literally one disease was vaccinated off the planet. That was small pox. Literally one. Not diseases. Just disease.

Sure we still have cancer, aids, ALS and many more debilitating sicknesses... but we've also put some equally terrible diseases in society's rear-view mirror.
What are you talking about? Small pox. That is it. Literally not one other single disease and certainly never coronavirus. It won't be possible because it lives in wild animals ... exactly like TB which we also can't get rid of.

Well it's literally two, rinderpest being the second. But thanks to vaccinations, polio, measles, rubella, yellow fever are all things I dont have to worry about. Not to mention additional vaccines I can take as precautions for other things like tetanus, or drugs to reduce my risk of disease like malaria while travelling.

Eradication admittedly has a strict definition, and we might not eradicate covid, for the reasons you brought up... but with enough success and uptake of vaccines, we can make covid a forgotten word. And that's a prospect I look forward to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 08:50:06 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Yes, it is not 100% effective. Nothing is 100% effective, and even one that is 95% does NOT mean you are immune. If you are exposed to it constantly every day, eventually you're going to get it.

That's why it's important for even healthy people to get it, you can still pass it on even to those that have been vaccinated.

Basically... it's all about transmission rates.  If the transmission rate on average is less than 1.0 it dies out, if it's greater it spreads.  So if on average the disease spreads to even 1.1 people for everyone that catches it, it's going to spread.  That's why you need in the upwards of 70% to 90% of the population to be vaccinated, to ensure that the spread gets under that 1.0 per person average.  Otherwise it's just going to keep killing people.

The math isn't exact, a lot is guesswork, but we know for sure that you need a HIGH percentage to take it. So every single person that doesn't take it pushes us closer to the pandemic staying out of control.

As for damage to people who are asymptomatic, here are some articles.

"In 20% of the patients, Nagel found scarring, indicating irreversible damage to the heart muscle. Even young, healthy, asymptomatic athletes are showing heart damage that was detected by scans months later."

 - https://www.biospace.com/article/sars-cov-2-causes-heart-damage-in-20-percent-of-people-with-mild-or-no-covid-19-symptoms/

"A trauma surgeon on the front lines of COVID-19 is finding lungs infected with the virus are more damaged than a smoker’s lung. She said it’s true even for asymptomatic cases."

 - https://www.cbs17.com/digital-stories/covid-19-infected-lungs-damaged-more-than-smokers-lung-doctor-says/


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 09:03:30 PM
Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
And that's probably the reason they haven't been eradicated. Imagine the money made from giving billion of people vaccines. Compared to the $0 received for vaccinating precisely nobody against small pox.

You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 29, 2021, 09:20:29 PM
Well it's literally two, rinderpest being the second. But thanks to vaccinations, polio, measles, rubella, yellow fever are all things I dont have to worry about.
You never had to worry about rinderpest. It is a bovine disease.


Also why would you worry about yellow fever? Do you like in the Amazon basin or central Africa?


Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
And that's probably the reason they haven't been eradicated. Imagine the money made from giving billion of people vaccines. Compared to the $0 received for vaccinating precisely nobody against small pox.

You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?
No.

I have been vaccinated for mumps, measles, rubella and polio. The vaccines were licensed, decades of testing has been done and if anything goes wrong, I can sue the pharma company because they haven't been given immunity from prosecution for those vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 09:33:18 PM
Literally one disease was vaccinated off the planet. That was small pox. Literally one. Not diseases. Just disease.

Well it's literally two, rinderpest being the second. But thanks to vaccinations, polio, measles, rubella, yellow fever are all things I dont have to worry about.
You never had to worry about rinderpest. It is a bovine disease.

Nice attempt at a dodge here. The second disease isn't a disease even though you even called it a disease, because nobody 'had to worry about it'. You don't even know that's true, maybe some of us are farmers and indeed had to worry about it.

Just admit you were wrong, it will feel better in the long run. Just rip that band-aid off!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 29, 2021, 09:37:13 PM
I was like "What the hell is rinderpest?". And then I find out it doesn't effect humans. It should never have been in the conversation to begin with. So no, zero apology for that. It was a red herring.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 10:05:18 PM
I was like "What the hell is rinderpest?". And then I find out it doesn't effect humans. It should never have been in the conversation to begin with. So no, zero apology for that. It was a red herring.

Oh, I see.  You didn't know there were two disease eradicated when you said one.  It's not that you were wrong, you just didn't know the facts.

Nobody asked you to apologize, just admit you were wrong. How strange you think you need to apologize for being wrong... yet another piece of the puzzle. No wonder you are so desperately trying to avoid admitting it.

You are aware that there are diseases that don't affect humans, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2021, 10:22:58 PM
Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 10:33:15 PM
Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.

This. Thork doesn’t even really know what he is resisting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 30, 2021, 08:18:24 AM
You are aware that there are diseases that don't affect humans, right?
Yes. Why would we bring that into a conversation about saving human lives? It is a ridiculous strawman. And you'll be stunned to learn that I am not a veterinary historian. And literally no one on this website had heard of rinderpest. And Iceman only found it after a google to say "ah haaa!" having been unaware that we haven't eradicated many diseases as he suggested. His argument is in shreds. Mine still stands. Our record of erradicating diseases is actually extremely poor. There is only one disease that you might have got, that is now eradicated. We are moving on. This strawman deserves no further discussion.

Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
I'd guess there are at least a clear 30 points between our respective IQs and you are the one in deficit. If you want to patronise me, you'll get the same back. I'm also aware of MERS which you get from camels. So what if they have been studied for decades? They are different diseases. Just because we can effectively treat some types of cancer doesn't mean we can treat others. Just because we have vaccines for some coronaviruses doesn't mean you can use their vaccines on this disease. You can't. You need a new vaccine. And in this case, a new and unlicensed one where the scientists themselves are unable to answer very basic questions such as ... do I need regular annual boosters? Do I need it, if I have had real coronavirus or am I already immune? Am I still contagious if I have been vaccinated?

If they can't answer those questions, I'm not so sure they can't answer questions like ... will the vaccine hit my sperm count? Can the vaccine give me autoimmune problems? Will this vaccine give me a brain tumour? Will the vaccine turn me into a homosexual 5 years after taking it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 30, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
You are aware that there are diseases that don't affect humans, right?
Yes. Why would we bring that into a conversation about saving human lives? It is a ridiculous strawman. And you'll be stunned to learn that I am not a veterinary historian. And literally no one on this website had heard of rinderpest. And Iceman only found it after a google to say "ah haaa!" having been unaware that we haven't eradicated many diseases as he suggested. His argument is in shreds. Mine still stands. Our record of erradicating diseases is actually extremely poor. There is only one disease that you might have got, that is now eradicated. We are moving on. This strawman deserves no further discussion.

Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
I'd guess there are at least a clear 30 points between our respective IQs and you are the one in deficit. If you want to patronise me, you'll get the same back. I'm also aware of MERS which you get from camels. So what if they have been studied for decades? They are different diseases. Just because we can effectively treat some types of cancer doesn't mean we can treat others. Just because we have vaccines for some coronaviruses doesn't mean you can use their vaccines on this disease. You can't. You need a new vaccine. And in this case, a new and unlicensed one where the scientists themselves are unable to answer very basic questions such as ... do I need regular annual boosters? Do I need it, if I have had real coronavirus or am I already immune? Am I still contagious if I have been vaccinated?
How the disease reacts with a vaccine in the public and if the vaccine is safe are two different things. 

Quote
If they can't answer those questions, I'm not so sure they can't answer questions like ... will the vaccine hit my sperm count? Can the vaccine give me autoimmune problems? Will this vaccine give me a brain tumour? Will the vaccine turn me into a homosexual 5 years after taking it?

Its different, yes, but not so much as to require a completely different approach.  Some things are answered with time and how much it mutates.  Also, humans are all different so for starters...

1. Can't hit your sperm count if its already 0.
2. Only if your immune system is fucked up already.
3. No.
4. No.

The first two can probably happen if you have the right conditions in your body.  Good luck figuring out that combination.  The second do are you just being a dick, so they're no to everyone.

But everyone's body is different.  They can answer it generally (and some of them are answered) but sometimes people have abnormal reactions. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 30, 2021, 09:16:06 AM
How about you find me a medical citation saying this vaccine won't turn me gay? Because if it does, I won't be able to sue the pharma company as they have been given immunity from prosecution.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. If a pharma company will not stand behind its own products with its wallet ... I'm not risking my health on those same products. The instant Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Janssen et al accept liability for their products ... I'll know they are safe to take. Not a moment before and not because you wrote 1) No, 2) No 3) No 4) No. You aren't going to pick up my medical/care costs if I get hurt either. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 30, 2021, 10:01:03 AM
How about you find me a medical citation saying this vaccine won't turn me gay? Because if it does, I won't be able to sue the pharma company as they have been given immunity from prosecution.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. If a pharma company will not stand behind its own products with its wallet ... I'm not risking my health on those same products. The instant Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Janssen et al accept liability for their products ... I'll know they are safe to take. Not a moment before and not because you wrote 1) No, 2) No 3) No 4) No. You aren't going to pick up my medical/care costs if I get hurt either.

1. The NHS will.
2. Pretty sure if they did without a ton of asterixes, they'd be sued to bankrupcy because America is full of dicks.  But thats fine.  Thats your criteria and I respect it. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 30, 2021, 12:02:00 PM
Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
I'd guess there are at least a clear 30 points between our respective IQs and you are the one in deficit. If you want to patronise me, you'll get the same back. I'm also aware of MERS which you get from camels. So what if they have been studied for decades? They are different diseases. Just because we can effectively treat some types of cancer doesn't mean we can treat others. Just because we have vaccines for some coronaviruses doesn't mean you can use their vaccines on this disease. You can't. You need a new vaccine. And in this case, a new and unlicensed one where the scientists themselves are unable to answer very basic questions such as ... do I need regular annual boosters? Do I need it, if I have had real coronavirus or am I already immune? Am I still contagious if I have been vaccinated?

A lot of that data will become very clear soon. As for your last question no vaccine prevents you from carrying a viral load, it reduces the time between introduction of the virus and immune response and the effectiveness of the immune response.

Quote
If they can't answer those questions, I'm not so sure they can't answer questions like ... will the vaccine hit my sperm count? Can the vaccine give me autoimmune problems? Will this vaccine give me a brain tumour? Will the vaccine turn me into a homosexual 5 years after taking it?

The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects. Maybe you should research that so you can put your mind at rest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 30, 2021, 12:14:23 PM
And literally no one on this website had heard of rinderpest.

Here you go being wrong again. That's twice in a row now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 30, 2021, 01:33:09 PM
I said eradicated when I should have said "made completely irrelevant for billions of people" as Rama pointed out. You said literally one disease had been officially eradicated, when the actual number is two.

Now you're complaining that no one is going to pay you is something goes wrong even though Dave told you that national health programs have all already stepped up to back to vaccine and provide benefits.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: jack44556677 on January 30, 2021, 05:53:23 PM
Which 2?

I heard smallpox was back on the market...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 30, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
Which 2?

I heard smallpox was back on the market...

Source? Are you talking about the theoretical reoccurrence due to the tundra melting?

If it did come back, would you get the vaccine?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 31, 2021, 08:31:05 AM
1. The NHS will.
The NHS will what? If I get a life changing side effect from one of these vaccines, I should be able to sue that company for £millions to ensure my care costs are covered forever due to their negligence. So that I can have disabled ramps put in my home, a 24 hour a day carer, shower and toilet adaptations, a guide dog if I need it, a transit van with a wheel chair lift, a bed with a hoist ... you know shit you need if you get seriously hurt. All the NHS will do is put me to the back of a 10 month queue to see a doctor who will prescribe me something for the pain. It is not the same thing at all.

The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects.
Not confident enough to put their share price on the line should they need to compensate people for any damage caused. They can say anything they like. That they swear on their mother's grave, that they promise their firstborn, they can swear on the holy bible ... until they back their products with their money and accept liability for them, I'm not taking them. I think only an idiot would, unless you were extremely vulnerable, which I am not. 

If it did come back, would you get the vaccine?
Fuck yeah. I'd trample a bingo hall full of an old ladies to get it. Smallpox is a dreadful disease. It leaves permanent scarring, can cause blindness ... and that's if you are lucky enough not to die from it. Smallpox (aka red plague) ravaged ancient Rome. Huge death tolls. But the difference is
1) smallpox is dangerous to me where coronavirus isn't
2) smallpox vaccine is licensed and manufacturers accept liability for those drugs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 31, 2021, 12:45:44 PM
If it did come back, would you get the vaccine?
Fuck yeah. I'd trample a bingo hall full of an old ladies to get it. Smallpox is a dreadful disease. It leaves permanent scarring, can cause blindness ... and that's if you are lucky enough not to die from it. Smallpox (aka red plague) ravaged ancient Rome. Huge death tolls. But the difference is
1) smallpox is dangerous to me where coronavirus isn't
2) smallpox vaccine is licensed and manufacturers accept liability for those drugs.

You could still die from COVID, and it's still looking likely you could suffer permanent damage even without symptoms. Coincidentally enough, heart and lung scarring has been found. We know nerve damage is also happening.

COVID would have milled massive numbers of people if it happened back in Rome too. The only reason it's as controlled as it is, is because of modern medicine and at least SOME people using masks and social distancing.

So you won't take the COVID vaccine because you won't get ENOUGH money in the unlikely event it somehow makes you sick, and would rather risk getting COVID which has a actual chance of killing you plus damaging your heart or lungs in which case you won't get any money.

Humans are terrible at risk assessment, I submit you as exhibit A.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 31, 2021, 03:14:41 PM
1. The NHS will.
The NHS will what? If I get a life changing side effect from one of these vaccines, I should be able to sue that company for £millions to ensure my care costs are covered forever due to their negligence. So that I can have disabled ramps put in my home, a 24 hour a day carer, shower and toilet adaptations, a guide dog if I need it, a transit van with a wheel chair lift, a bed with a hoist ... you know shit you need if you get seriously hurt. All the NHS will do is put me to the back of a 10 month queue to see a doctor who will prescribe me something for the pain. It is not the same thing at all.
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 31, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?

I can’t think of another example where it has been mandated that a person take a certain medicine or vaccine outside of the more authoritarian regimes.

One could argue that there is a moral imperative that should compel people to take it, but making laws to mandate it - or making rules which means life basically becomes impossible for those who decline to take it - seems to be crossing a line.

You could argue that it’s a line which should be crossed but remember we are talking about a disease which has a relatively low fatality rate. It’s about 1% across the population of a developed country although that becomes higher the older people get.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 31, 2021, 04:35:50 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.


Humans are terrible at risk assessment, I submit you as exhibit A.
Using the following tool (feel free, have a go yourself) I have a 1:83333 chance of dying from covid. A 1:4405 chance if I end up in hospital.
https://www.qcovid.org/Home/AcademicLicence?licencedUrl=%2FPatientInformation%2FPatientInformation

The algorithm doesn't take into account things like how much exercise I do (quite a lot), how sickly I am in general (I'm not), and how bad my mother's cooking was when I was a child giving me a cast iron immune system from all the times she food poisoned me. Also this uni will want to over inflate the odds rather than play them down. My risk is probably more like a lottery win than the numbers they have given me. I'm in no danger at all.

How's your risk?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 31, 2021, 04:46:21 PM
You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?

I can’t think of another example where it has been mandated that a person take a certain medicine or vaccine outside of the more authoritarian regimes.

In Canada you can’t go to public school without getting a suite of vaccines. That kind of mandate seems reasonable.

Quote
One could argue that there is a moral imperative that should compel people to take it, but making laws to mandate it - or making rules which means life basically becomes impossible for those who decline to take it - seems to be crossing a line.

You could argue that it’s a line which should be crossed but remember we are talking about a disease which has a relatively low fatality rate. It’s about 1% across the population of a developed country although that becomes higher the older people get.

Let’s also remember it’s an oddly contagious disease and a low fatality rate helps it propagate broadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 31, 2021, 04:55:14 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 31, 2021, 05:13:12 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.

Dave, a quick google would tell you that you are talking nonsense. I'm tired of responding to things you just make up.
These three ladies got $800,000 each.  (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-26m-in-damages-over-vaginal-mesh-implants#:~:text=Vaginal%20mesh%20implants-,Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%242.6m,damages%20over%20vaginal%20mesh%20implants&text=Pharmaceutical%20giant%20Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20has,received%20faulty%20pelvic%20mesh%20implants.) Not maybe a years' salary and they are a small group.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 31, 2021, 05:45:31 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.

Dave, a quick google would tell you that you are talking nonsense. I'm tired of responding to things you just make up.
These three ladies got $800,000 each.  (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-26m-in-damages-over-vaginal-mesh-implants#:~:text=Vaginal%20mesh%20implants-,Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%242.6m,damages%20over%20vaginal%20mesh%20implants&text=Pharmaceutical%20giant%20Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20has,received%20faulty%20pelvic%20mesh%20implants.) Not maybe a years' salary and they are a small group.

This particular case was part of a 1300+ person class action suit. Of which, it's part of $8 Billion worth of class action lawsuits against J&J and other manufacturers of this product. I'm not sure how this is even relevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 31, 2021, 06:57:06 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.

Dave, a quick google would tell you that you are talking nonsense. I'm tired of responding to things you just make up.
These three ladies got $800,000 each.  (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-26m-in-damages-over-vaginal-mesh-implants#:~:text=Vaginal%20mesh%20implants-,Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%242.6m,damages%20over%20vaginal%20mesh%20implants&text=Pharmaceutical%20giant%20Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20has,received%20faulty%20pelvic%20mesh%20implants.) Not maybe a years' salary and they are a small group.
I'm pulling it from coloquial info.


But fine.  Big payouts.  So why are you so afraid of no labels?  If they don't say it'll make you gay, and it does, its worse for them than if they say "warning, may cause homosexuality."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 31, 2021, 08:08:56 PM
Humans are terrible at risk assessment, I submit you as exhibit A.
Using the following tool (feel free, have a go yourself) I have a 1:83333 chance of dying from covid. A 1:4405 chance if I end up in hospital.
https://www.qcovid.org/Home/AcademicLicence?licencedUrl=%2FPatientInformation%2FPatientInformation

The algorithm doesn't take into account things like how much exercise I do (quite a lot), how sickly I am in general (I'm not), and how bad my mother's cooking was when I was a child giving me a cast iron immune system from all the times she food poisoned me. Also this uni will want to over inflate the odds rather than play them down. My risk is probably more like a lottery win than the numbers they have given me. I'm in no danger at all.

How's your risk?

The only reason that first number is so low is because everyone ELSE is protecting you by getting the vaccine.  If everyone caught it, there would be a lot more deaths.

So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?

Tell me, what's the risk of dying from the vaccine?  Zero so far, right?  So far I have not seen any reports of a confirmed fatality from the vaccine.  So that 1 in 4405 chance looks a lot bigger now, doesn't it?

And you are still deciding to put other peopel at high risk of death because you don't think you will get enough money if you need to sue them? How selfish can you get?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 31, 2021, 08:22:56 PM
Just an FYI, to date, approximately 95m people have been vaccinated worldwide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 31, 2021, 10:09:29 PM
So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?
You're acting like if Thork doesn't have the vaccine he'll be licking lamp-posts to make sure he catches Covid and then going into care homes to cough in people's faces.

If most people have the vaccine then surely the rate of infection will be quite low in the population anyway, which makes the chances of non-vaccinated people getting it lower. And if they do get it then because most vulnerable people will be vaccinated the chances of them catching it from someone who isn't vaccinated will be low.

To be clear, I'm not saying I won't have it. I am saying I think it's crossing a line to mandate it. A line I don't think a government should be crossing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 31, 2021, 11:03:24 PM
So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?
You're acting like if Thork doesn't have the vaccine he'll be licking lamp-posts to make sure he catches Covid and then going into care homes to cough in people's faces.

If most people have the vaccine then surely the rate of infection will be quite low in the population anyway, which makes the chances of non-vaccinated people getting it lower. And if they do get it then because most vulnerable people will be vaccinated the chances of them catching it from someone who isn't vaccinated will be low.

To be clear, I'm not saying I won't have it. I am saying I think it's crossing a line to mandate it. A line I don't think a government should be crossing.

If enough people are like Thork and don't get vaccinated, then we won't reach the levels required to stop it and it will continue to spread and kill people.

If Thork was the only one not taking it I wouldn't care, but we run the very real risk that enough people like him will refuse and we will fail to contain it.

Remember, one person can spread it to dozens, and then hundreds. Just a single unvaccinated person can spread it far enough to where you have people dying.

And yeah, I honestly don't have any confidence at all he wouldn't intentionally spread it if he thinks he personally won't suffer.  He's already willing to avoid it and put peoples lives at risk, so that's not out of character at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 31, 2021, 11:06:31 PM
So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?
You're acting like if Thork doesn't have the vaccine he'll be licking lamp-posts to make sure he catches Covid and then going into care homes to cough in people's faces.

Yes, there is a distinct chance that is exactly what he will be doing.

If most people have the vaccine then surely the rate of infection will be quite low in the population anyway, which makes the chances of non-vaccinated people getting it lower. And if they do get it then because most vulnerable people will be vaccinated the chances of them catching it from someone who isn't vaccinated will be low.

To be clear, I'm not saying I won't have it. I am saying I think it's crossing a line to mandate it. A line I don't think a government should be crossing.

What governments are "mandating" it? I'm not aware of that happening here in the US. In the UK?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 01, 2021, 02:20:30 AM
it's just ThE fLu
(https://i.imgur.com/CoZ3sKx.jpg)

Kid was projected to be a star. Hope he makes it through and gets a chance to take his shot in the bigs.

It's not just an old person's disease. This kid is one example of many where someone in their physical prime is completely derailed by the effects of covid.

Death rates are low, infections are high, complications are common and can be terrible.

Please consider getting the vaccine when it is available to you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 08:18:18 AM
If enough people are like Thork and don't get vaccinated, then we won't reach the levels required to stop it and it will continue to spread and kill people.
Kill who? People who chose not to be vaccinated? That's their choice, huh? And they made the same choice as me so they can hardly complain.

If Thork was the only one not taking it I wouldn't care, but we run the very real risk that enough people like him will refuse and we will fail to contain it.
Contain it from whom? If everyone who wants a vaccine can have one, what is the problem?

Remember, one person can spread it to dozens, and then hundreds.
Oh yes, I should bear in mind how a virus works. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Just a single unvaccinated person can spread it far enough to where you have people dying.
Spread it to who? Other unvaccinated people who CHOSE not to be vaccinated ... probably because they realise they aren't at risk in the first place?

And yeah, I honestly don't have any confidence at all he wouldn't intentionally spread it if he thinks he personally won't suffer.  He's already willing to avoid it and put peoples lives at risk, so that's not out of character at all.
I'd cough all over you in a heart beat.  >:(

It's not just an old person's disease. This kid is one example of many where someone in their physical prime is completely derailed by the effects of covid.

Death rates are low, infections are high, complications are common and can be terrible.

Please consider getting the vaccine when it is available to you.
This is like saying ... "Young people can be killed in car accidents. Please don't drive." ... we haven't banned cars. I'm not interested in edge cases. This kid is in the news because what happened to him is so rare. Literally no one would report that I grew a sunflower in my garden last year. But, if that sunflower was 30 feet tall, suddenly I get to sit on a sofa with Phillip and Holly because my sunflower is so rare in its hugeness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 09:31:48 AM
If Thork was the only one not taking it I wouldn't care, but we run the very real risk that enough people like him will refuse and we will fail to contain it.
Contain it from whom? If everyone who wants a vaccine can have one, what is the problem?

Not everyone who wants one can get one, and the vaccine isn't 100% effective, none are.  So you can still spread it to others. That's the problem.

The problem is being selfish can kill people.  Some of us understand that and actually care about other people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 11:10:00 AM
Thork still doesn’t want to accept that some of the people at the highest risk of complications from COVID can’t take the vaccine, and/or the vaccine won’t work as effectively for them due to compromised immune systems. In his mind they should just be content to never come in to contact with the outside world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 01:32:05 PM
Quote from: British government
Can you give COVID-19 to anyone if you have had the vaccine?
We do not yet know whether it will stop you from catching and passing on the virus
Source (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-what-to-expect-after-vaccination/what-to-expect-after-your-covid-19-vaccination#:~:text=The%20vaccine%20cannot%20give%20you,to%20reduce%20this%20risk.)

That's how little they know about these vaccines or if they even work very well. I could take the vaccine and still infect people. My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 01, 2021, 01:42:59 PM
As long as you're not one of these asshats....

(https://i.imgur.com/6R8dnfb.jpg)

Not wanting to get the vaccine is one thing, but stopping others from getting vaccinated just seems a bit.... crazy
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 02:07:58 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people.

Welcome to literally every vaccine ever.

Quote
My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.

Welcome to literally every Dunning-Kreuger, ever.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 02:11:28 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people. My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.

Your not taking the vaccine makes you ignorant and selfish, and puts others in danger.  Congratulations, you're a terrible person.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 02:17:34 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people. My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.

Your not taking the vaccine makes you ignorant and selfish, and puts others in danger. 

To be fair, the first two qualities precipitated not taking the vaccine. I think it’s fair that people are wary of a pharmaceutical that was rushed through approval. It’s an industry that has shat on the public enough times that it’s a logical knee-jerk. It’s Thork’s dogmatic persona that is difficult to sympathize with alongside his basic misunderstanding of how vaccine’s work or how viruses spread.

Quote
Congratulations, you're a terrible person.


He is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people.

Welcome to literally every vaccine ever.

I am responding to ignorant comments such as
Not everyone who wants one can get one, and the vaccine isn't 100% effective, none are.  So you can still spread it to others. That's the problem.

The problem is being selfish can kill people.  Some of us understand that and actually care about other people.

JSS seems to think if I get vaccinated, it stops me spreading the disease. It doesn't. He says I'm selfish. He's wrong. Me being vaccinated or not only effects one person ... me. And I have weighed the risk ... practically zero from covid ... against a vaccine that is unlicensed where the manufacturer accepts zero liability where those same manufacturers are unable to answer very basic questions about their drug at this point in time ... and I think I'm best off just giving this a swerve. It is easy to get caught up in mass hysteria but if you can keep your head whilst all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you ... you will be a man, my son.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 02:35:02 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people.

Welcome to literally every vaccine ever.

I am responding to ignorant comments such as

JSS seems to think if I get vaccinated, it stops me spreading the disease.

He literally said:
...the vaccine isn't 100% effective, none are.  So you can still spread it to others.


So literally what in the fuck are you talking about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 03:11:13 PM
If the vaccine doesn't stop me spreading the disease ... why the fuck do you want me to take it?  >o<


It is like talking to a bunch of pre-schoolers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2021, 03:13:57 PM
If the vaccine doesn't stop me spreading the disease ... why the fuck do you want me to take it?  >o<


It is like talking to a bunch of pre-schoolers.

We don't want you to die.

Also, contact spreading is a thing. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 03:25:13 PM
We don't want you to die.
Well now I know you are lying.

Also, contact spreading is a thing.
Nope. I'm not explaining it again. You have sources, you have the reasoned arguments. Read it again or just let it die. I'm not taking the vaccine. I have sound reasoning for this. I've explained it. Finito.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 03:28:48 PM
If the vaccine doesn't stop me spreading the disease ... why the fuck do you want me to take it?  >o<


It is like talking to a bunch of pre-schoolers.

If you acknowledge that you accused JSS of holding a position when he explicitly expressed the opposite, we can move on to this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2021, 04:27:03 PM
We don't want you to die.
Well now I know you are lying.
Every family needs a creepy, grumpy uncle.  You're it. :P

Quote
Also, contact spreading is a thing.
Nope. I'm not explaining it again. You have sources, you have the reasoned arguments. Read it again or just let it die. I'm not taking the vaccine. I have sound reasoning for this. I've explained it. Finito.

I'm not trying to argue about taking the vaccine.  Just saying that, from a legal standpoint, a vaccine will not stop you from spreading it via contact.  Ie you touch an infected handle then touch someone's hand who then picks their nose.  So its not effective at stopping the spread (if that spread is contact).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 04:36:55 PM
JSS seems to think if I get vaccinated, it stops me spreading the disease. It doesn't. He says I'm selfish. He's wrong. Me being vaccinated or not only effects one person ... me.

No, it affects everyone you might infect due to not getting the vaccine.  I already said it's not 100% effective, but 95% is pretty damn good, it's what is needed to halt the spread and stop it from killing so many people. But only if enough people take it.

But you care about nobody but yourself.  What you do affects others, and if it makes you feel guilty maybe you should just take the damn vaccine instead of trying to convince yourself it's all fine and nothing to worry about.

Don't worry... hopefully enough other people will take it to keep you and those you care about safe since you're unwilling or too ignorant or simply too cowardly.  All three?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on February 01, 2021, 04:47:27 PM
I recently recovered from covid. 2/10 would not recommend. My symptoms were moderate with only a couple of days bad enough worry me that it might get real bad. Then it went away. Assuming I don't have scarred lungs or damaged organs I don't know about, it was much easier than the actual flu.

Still going to get the vaccine, but am much less worried about dying in the meantime. Given the number of variants we are already seeing, I imagine covid is just going to become a part of life, much like the flu where the annual flu shot is based on the most prevalent strain(s) that year.

I can't really fault someone for not wanting the current vaccine if their decision is based on phase 3 trials being much shorter than any other medication on the market and doing their own risk analysis. I am not sure how many of those people there are compared to the people who think there is a 5G modem in the vaccine and that the government will be monitoring and controlling you forever (not sure why they would even need that since everyone has a smartphone).

TL;DR - Got the 'vid, didn't die. Will get the vaccine, but don't blame certain people for not getting it. The anti-vax crowd are giant douches and will eventually remove themselves from the gene pool when something more deadly eventually comes along.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 04:51:35 PM
I don’t blame informed people for not getting it, just people like Thork.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 05:28:18 PM
I recently recovered from covid.

Still going to get the vaccine.

Why? You are already immune. How do you think you recovered from the disease instead of dying? Your body developed antibodies to overcome coronavirus. What does a vaccine do? Helps you develop antibodies to overcome the virus.

I feel like the collective world has take an IQ bath and washed away all common sense and powers of reasoning.


I already said it's not 100% effective, but 95% is pretty damn good,
It is 95% effective at provoking an immune response from you after 2 doses. It is not 95% effective at stopping you spreading the disease. These are not the same things. This is like saying I can long jump 5 metres. Therefore I can high jump 5 metres. You are comparing apples and pears.

Getting vaccinated does not make me less contagious. I already linked you my government telling me that on their 'terrify the public' website.


For those still struggling.
You get the vaccine. It has the same protein coating as the actual disease. Your body goes ... mmm ... ok. That's not part of my body. Its foreign. I'll kill it. Bodies are pretty xenophobic like that.
Now, your body remembers that protein. The next time it sees it it jumps into action and says "I already told you to fucking die!  >o<".

This is where it gets complicated. Put your finger under the words and mouth them out loud for easier comprehension. You go out after being vaccinated and someone coughs on you. The coronavirus enters your body. Its right there. You are now contagious and can give other people the disease. Your body makes short work of it, having seen it before. But you coughed on a little old lady and she died anyway. The vaccine made no difference.
Three weeks later you go out and you French kiss a sailor. His beard feels warm and comforting. But your body suddenly realises something is wrong. You got covid again. "Die motherfucking covid  >o<" yells your body and kills it all over again. But not before you sneezed on a tramp and killed him too.

BEING VACCINATED DOESN'T PROTECT OTHER PEOPLE FROM YOU. IT ONLY PROTECTS YOU.

If you already had the disease, you already have that protection. The proof of this being that you aren't dead. IE you had an immune response that was successful. Ergo, you don't need to be vaccinated. Any 'scientist' claiming you do is lying to either flog more drugs, frighten people who had a flu and thought they had covid or because they are dumb ... which many scientists are these days because when you send literally everyone to uni and give almost all a degree ... you lower the bar to the point stupid scientists are everywhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 05:39:51 PM
It’s not true that being vaccinated doesn’t inhibit the spread of a disease at all. Limiting your viral load reduces the chance of transmission.  A quick and efficient immune response limits the window in which you could possibly be infectious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on February 01, 2021, 05:43:34 PM
Why? You are already immune. How do you think you recovered from the disease instead of dying? Your body developed antibodies to overcome coronavirus. What does a vaccine do? Helps you develop antibodies to overcome the virus.
I am currently "trusting the science" in that the recent data I have seen implies the antibodies may not last all that long. If that isn't the case as more data comes in, I will reevaluate. I doubt I will be able to get the vaccine for at least several months anyway, so I will have plenty of time to consider my position.


I feel like the collective world has take an IQ bath and washed away all common sense and powers of reasoning.
Yes, anyone who doesn't share your opinion must be a low-IQ, irrational smoothbrain incapable of reason.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 05:48:54 PM
It’s not true that being vaccinated doesn’t inhibit the spread of a disease at all. Limiting your viral load reduces the chance of transmission.  A quick and efficient immune response limits the window in which you could possibly be infectious.
The manufacturer has literally said that they don't know that. How is it that you know that? You know more about Pfizer's drugs than Pfizer?

How do you know more than all the leading experts?
Quote from: https://fortune.com/2020/12/22/covid-vaccine-infectious-face-masks-transmission/
It’s surprising, but experts agree: The tens of thousands of people being vaccinated against the coronavirus right now may still be able to carry and transmit the SARS-CoV-2 virus to others, despite being well-protected against the symptoms of COVID-19 themselves. That means they must still wear masks and practice social distancing to protect those around them.

I am currently "trusting the science" in that the recent data I have seen implies the antibodies may not last all that long.
Oh, you're looking for a life-long subscription to Pfizer's latest drug. An annual booster like a little old lady getting her flu shots. I need to become a Pfizer shareholder. I had no idea people were this foolish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on February 01, 2021, 06:03:56 PM
science: we're not certain of the full extent to which the vaccine will prevent the spread of covid, but preventing yourself from becoming a covid factory is probably helpful.

thork: this is apodictic proof that the vaccine cannot prevent transmission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111111111111111111123
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 01, 2021, 06:05:40 PM
Thork, it seems like you've allowed yourself to understand just enough to form a really shitty opinion on the subject   ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 01, 2021, 06:12:27 PM
Thork, it seems like you've allowed yourself to understand just enough to form a really shitty opinion on the subject   ::)
The penny has dropped, hasn't it? I'm right. And now you see how stupid getting the vaccine is if you are healthy. Which by the way You are going to be encouraged to get this vaccine every single year for the rest of forever.

Every year, regular as clockwork, you'll queue up and stick some pharma gunge you don't need into you and someone somewhere will get rich.

Now you don't like that I'm right. I'm going against all the angels you love like Biden and Merkel and the WHO and Ursula von der thingymabob. But they backed themselves into a corner with these lockdowns and the only credibility they can muster to unlock their countries is to pretend this vaccine is a magic bullet. And yes, it puts you on the evil side of the world. The Thork side. One day I'll have you voting for a nationalist party. Slowly slowly ... one post at a time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 06:27:16 PM
Thork, it seems like you've allowed yourself to understand just enough to form a really shitty opinion on the subject   ::)
The penny has dropped, hasn't it? I'm right. And now you see how stupid getting the vaccine is if you are healthy. Which by the way You are going to be encouraged to get this vaccine every single year for the rest of forever.

Every year, regular as clockwork, you'll queue up and stick some pharma gunge you don't need into you and someone somewhere will get rich.

Now you don't like that I'm right. I'm going against all the angels you love like Biden and Merkel and the WHO and Ursula von der thingymabob. But they backed themselves into a corner with these lockdowns and the only credibility they can muster to unlock their countries is to pretend this vaccine is a magic bullet. And yes, it puts you on the evil side of the world. The Thork side. One day I'll have you voting for a nationalist party. Slowly slowly ... one post at a time.

Is today the day where you just take Rushy's lead and don't read the posts you are responding to?  It really seems like that is what you are doing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 08:24:28 PM
I already linked you my government telling me that on their 'terrify the public' website.

Anti-vaxxers have to be some of the most ignorant, selfish, people on the planet.  I suppose we have modern medicine to thank for keeping these people alive despite their attempts to off themselves and everyone around them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 03, 2021, 02:02:06 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 03, 2021, 02:07:41 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.

FFS! He was 101 years old. It can't be a surprise he died. In his last year he got promoted to Colonel, got a telegram fromr The Queen for being 100, became a celebrity, got knighted by The Queen and received never ending praise ... for walking around his garden a few times! He can't complain about going out like that.

However, he claimed to be raising money for the NHS. You know what that is also called? A voluntary tax contribution. He fooled people into giving extra one off tax payments. Thank God for Covid. Finally starting to see some positives.  >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 03, 2021, 02:24:45 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.

FFS! He was 101 years old. It can't be a surprise he died. In his last year he got promoted to Colonel, got a telegram fromr The Queen for being 100, became a celebrity, got knighted by The Queen and received never ending praise ... for walking around his garden a few times! He can't complain about going out like that.

However, he claimed to be raising money for the NHS. You know what that is also called? A voluntary tax contribution. He fooled people into giving extra one off tax payments. Thank God for Covid. Finally starting to see some positives.  >:(

He was 100. It's not a surprise. Yep he had a big year.  Glad we can add 'raising £32M for the NHS' to the list of things Thork doesn't support! Par for the course I guess :-\
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 03, 2021, 02:35:27 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.

FFS! He was 101 years old. It can't be a surprise he died. In his last year he got promoted to Colonel, got a telegram fromr The Queen for being 100, became a celebrity, got knighted by The Queen and received never ending praise ... for walking around his garden a few times! He can't complain about going out like that.

However, he claimed to be raising money for the NHS. You know what that is also called? A voluntary tax contribution. He fooled people into giving extra one off tax payments. Thank God for Covid. Finally starting to see some positives.  >:(

He was 100. It's not a surprise. Yep he had a big year.  Glad we can add 'raising £32M for the NHS' to the list of things Thork doesn't support! Par for the course I guess :-\

It is a money hole. If you gave money for that, the government likely just took it and spent it on welfare or farmer subsidies. If you give the government £32m for healthcare ... they immediately think oh, we can now reallocate £32m for my pet project and build 2000 unicycle lanes in Birmingham or whatever stupid shit they think up next.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 03, 2021, 10:06:02 AM
ITT: Thork does not know the difference between NHS Charities Together and the NHS. Some Briton, you are. ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 03, 2021, 10:17:53 AM
ITT: Thork does not know the difference between NHS Charities Together and the NHS. Some Briton, you are. ;)

NHS Charities cherry pick the best causes to screw the public out of money. The government then picks up the tab for everything that is left behind. Ergo, give £10 to an NHS charity and the government needs to find £10 less to provide a health service. It's a voluntary tax contribution.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 03, 2021, 10:23:18 AM
Obviously he expressed it all in a particularly Thorky way, but there is a kernel of a reasonable point in there.
Isn't the NHS funded by my tax? Isn't that what National Insurance is for? If the government are under-funding it to the point that charities need to prop it up then shouldn't that be addressed.
Not having a go at Captain Tom, he was just a sweet old man who wanted to help out and good for him.
Although it is a bit random how what he did went viral, he ended up with a Number 1 single (although Michael Ball was doing a lot of the heavy lifting there) and getting a knighthood.
There were other people doing similar things and although some of them briefly made the news in the reflected glow of Captain Tom, they didn't go viral so ended up being forgotten.

But it was a feel good story of last year and there weren't many of those around so, overall, RIP Captain Tom
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 03, 2021, 10:40:22 AM
If the government are under-funding it to the point that charities need to prop it up then shouldn't that be addressed.
Tory voters gonna vote Tory.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 03, 2021, 10:41:06 AM
there is a kernel of a reasonable point in there.
I would have written colonel ... you know, captain Tom being promoted to colonel and all.
https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2020-05-19/from-captain-to-colonel-to-sir-tom-a-knighthood-for-100-year-old-charity-champion

That would have been both topical and funny and linked the whole thing together better. People would have read it and attributed an extra 5 IQ points to your online persona.

It should also be mentioned that despite the advice being to stay at home, self isolate and generally behave yourself if you are old and weak, Captain Tom ignored all that advice and took a holiday to Barbados where he promptly caught coronavirus from a black man and then died ... ironically in the hands of the very NHS that raised money for. Karma is on form this week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 03, 2021, 11:01:41 AM
there is a kernel of a reasonable point in there.
I would have written colonel ... you know, captain Tom being promoted to colonel and all.
I did consider that joke tbf but decided I'd leave the opportunity to make that joke to someone less popular who needed the points.
No need to thank me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 04, 2021, 11:48:27 AM
Now they want to give him a statue outside parliament.  ::)
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz-news/amanda-holden-launches-petition-captain-19763295
Or alternatively on a plinth in Trafalgar square
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/nick-knowles-calls-captain-tom-115323369.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9218261/Memorial-Captain-Tom-Matt-Hancock-says-war-hero-place-history-honoured.html

Seemingly a wooden carving
(https://i2-prod.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/incoming/article4092134.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_MH_HMB_300420LECHOTomCookeWoodCarving_03.jpg)
A bronze bust
(https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/PRI_158199955.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=644%2C405)
Artisitic tributes
(https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/webimg/QVNIMTE0NjE2NzQ4.jpg?&width=640)
A life size balloon model
(https://www.expressandstar.com/resizer/IGHINUyoRKnacRqesQScuP6Lk2g=/1200x0/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mna/SZQEV5SJNJDAXMGUM6VWR6XMGU.jpg)
A free holiday to Barbados
(https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/Captain-Tom-1392458.webp?r=1612350118430)
A knighthood
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/22A4/production/_113486880_hi062504223.jpg)
A military promotion to Colonel
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/bcc771eccdc5e456cb87e73421b1a22518df76cd/26_276_1602_961/master/1602.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=f9536eb2e10f11ea12b81e0cf7d0cbce)
A national hand clap outside of people's front doors
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/37a073c4e27be47fe920dcb9f8b9f30bd9cce632/0_264_3295_1977/master/3295.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=0e6140ef76b9d4271ee371eae3462cba)
The lowering of the flag at 10 Downing Street to mark his passing
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/NINTCHDBPICT000633976409-1.jpg?w=1240)
Private condolence messages from the Queen
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Queen.png?w=1240)
Private Condolence messages from the Prime minister
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Boris-1.png?w=1240)
A national out pouring on Twitter
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13921434/captain-tom-dead-tributes-boris-johnson/

Gracing the cover of all major publications
(https://media.gq-magazine.co.uk/photos/5fae9506ea28115f15805bf1/master/w_2563,c_limit/MOTYOnlineCropsAndHP_Tom%20HP%20Cover.jpg)
150,000 birthday cards
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NINTCHDBPICT000579994974-1.jpg?w=1240)
A Pride of Britain award
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/04/23/10/27547062-8248487-image-a-108_1587635977184.jpg)
A National Salute award
(https://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/webimg/T0FLMTIzOTk0MzAx.jpg?&width=640)
The Freedom of the city of London
(https://www.cityam.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/1211369410.jpg)
A WWE championship belt ???
(https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/171/590x/1274897_1.webp?r=1588144410822)
A number one hit with Michael Ball
(https://www.officialcharts.com/media/658200/captain-tom-moore-and-michael-ball-youll-never-walk-alone-article-image-cropped.jpg?width=796&mode=stretch)
A Guinness world record award for being the oldest person to have a number one hit in the UK
(https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-75373040,width-650,imgsize-194569,,resizemode-4,quality-100/untitled-5.jpg)
2 Spitfires from the RAF completing 3 laps around his house
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NINTCHDBPICT000580114193.jpg?w=1240)
A book deal
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ea7fcd52a381e6e5fa4ca17/1589384957850-0KMHC4WBFW758QL0ZHD6/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFHjxEXAQ2f6TTgMOkA4ktl7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UVwPCZGaVP2HgzGceWphwEuVb7xN3DS32Fu0CoQ_0_D9MW9u6oXQZQicHHG1WEE6fg/capt_tom_w_book.png)
A train named after him
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Captain_Tom_Moore_Train_Naming.jpg)
A lorry sent to his house by the army on his birthday
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NINTCHDBPICT000580109525.jpg?w=1240img)
A tribute from the Royal mail on everyone's letters
(https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/PRI_150165284.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C341)
A second flypast by the Red Arrows
(https://assets.change.org/photos/8/pl/vg/ayPLVGrGaBrwlMb-800x450-noPad.jpg?1587119429)
and a tribute in the London New Year's firework display
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article23246907.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200d/0_New-Years-celebrations.jpg)

Are simply not enough by way of a thank you for a man who walked around his back garden a few times!  >o<

Honestly, this country is filled with imbeciles. They'll be declaring him a saint next.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on February 04, 2021, 03:50:47 PM
Why are you so mad about this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 04, 2021, 03:55:55 PM
"Screw Sir Tom! Screw the government and the people and businesses and the queen and the media and the military and anyone else who found joy and pride in an old man doing a tiny deed with a modest goal and sparking a sense of hopefulness and national pride and unity during the early days of a declared global pandemic! I held the door for an old lady the other day and I didnt get a medal >:("

~Thork.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 04, 2021, 04:26:07 PM
Why are you so mad about this?

A number of reasons. 2 days ago the government encouraged the nation to stand outside their front doors clapping for Captain Tom. Some of my neighbours were out there clapping like trained seals. This virtue signalling nonsense is so ugly. The 'look at me, I'm good, I'm clapping' ... it grinds my gears. I want to shout ... "You aren't good. You're a fucking narcissist and you aren't doing this for Captain Tom. You are doing it because you think it improves your social standing.".

It is also another mass hysteria. Like Coronavirus. Everyone is all "Captain Tom is the saviour of the nation. A Legend. The essence of Britishness. A shining example" and I want to shout out ... "All he did was a sponsored walk around his garden, that's it". But no. No amount of praise and worship is enough for this man. Its just so ruddy stupid.

"Screw Sir Tom! Screw the government and the people and businesses and the queen and the media and the military and anyone else who found joy and pride in an old man doing a tiny deed with a modest goal and sparking a sense of hopefulness and national pride and unity during the early days of a declared global pandemic! I held the door for an old lady the other day and I didnt get a medal >:("

~Thork.
You think Captain Tom needs a statue on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square? That plinth was built for William IV. A king! And we are going to plonk a pensioner on there because he did a sponsored walk? I'd like you to know historically suggestions for the 4th plinth have been Nelson Mandela, Margaret Thatcher and Queen Elizabeth II. None of them were deemed worthy. But Captain Tom! Well that's different.

The whole thing has nothing to do with Captain Tom. Captain Tom was killed by the NHS. They gave him coronavirus when he went to hospital and he was dead a few days later. It is all about people saying ... "I suggested we give this guy something (something paid for by other people usually). Aren't I good?" This thirst to be recognised as good ... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! This isn't good. Doing something good is good. Suggesting someone else is good to bathe in their reflected glory is cheap and cynical. I really find it distasteful. It's the exact same and done by the exact same people who speak out on behalf to sexism, racism, social injustice etc. Its never about the cause. It is always about them. They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 04, 2021, 04:54:48 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 04, 2021, 05:12:00 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 04, 2021, 05:13:43 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.


It should also be mentioned that despite the advice being to stay at home, self isolate and generally behave yourself if you are old and weak, Captain Tom ignored all that advice and took a holiday to Barbados where he promptly caught coronavirus from a black man and then died ... ironically in the hands of the very NHS that raised money for. Karma is on form this week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 04, 2021, 05:16:03 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.

Propagating racist and anti-semitic viewpoints is though!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 04, 2021, 05:41:10 PM
It is also another mass hysteria. Like Coronavirus.

I wasn't aware mass hysteria could kill millions of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 04, 2021, 06:07:09 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.


It should also be mentioned that despite the advice being to stay at home, self isolate and generally behave yourself if you are old and weak, Captain Tom ignored all that advice and took a holiday to Barbados where he promptly caught coronavirus from a black man and then died ... ironically in the hands of the very NHS that raised money for. Karma is on form this week.

It's a shame you can't buy a sense of humour on Amazon.


Propagating racist and anti-semitic viewpoints is though!
I've at least 20,000 posts on this site and the old site ... all labelled Thork accounts. Find me an anti-Semitic post. Of the 4 times I can see I even mentioned the word 'jew' - now 5 times ... once was in a thread about bankers and rich Jewish families - a single post, once now split from its original thread and totally out of context about werewolf, and twice as a throw away remark. It is hardly a pattern of anti-semitic viewpoints is it?

I wasn't aware mass hysteria could kill millions of people.
Well its put millions behind in their cancer treatment around the world, upped suicides, reduced the amount of exercise people can take as all the leisure centres/gyms etc are closed, upped the amount of junk food and alcohol being consumed and this is nothing to speak of the damage to education, jobs and the economy. Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 04, 2021, 08:43:09 PM
Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.

So how deadly would a pandemic have to be before you would support public efforts to mitigate its spread?   If it was an Ebola outbreak, would you cooperate?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 04, 2021, 09:24:29 PM
I wasn't aware mass hysteria could kill millions of people.
Well its put millions behind in their cancer treatment around the world, upped suicides, reduced the amount of exercise people can take as all the leisure centres/gyms etc are closed, upped the amount of junk food and alcohol being consumed and this is nothing to speak of the damage to education, jobs and the economy. Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.

When you have statistics that prove more people died because they ate too much junk food than would have died of COVID had we not taken all these steps, then you can talk.

Remember, the millions of people that died did so even with all our efforts.  Uncontrolled, it could have a hundred million dead. I doubt we had a hundred million suicides.

And countries that took strict measures took LESS damage to their economies than ones that didn't and are now running rampant with the disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 04, 2021, 09:43:45 PM
Have some wisdom, Thork:

"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another. Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need." -Malcom Renalds (Firefly)

Basically, the people need s hero to rally around.  An idea to celebrate, to boost morale.  That old guy became it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 04, 2021, 10:11:52 PM
Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.

So how deadly would a pandemic have to be before you would support public efforts to mitigate its spread?   If it was an Ebola outbreak, would you cooperate?
We didn't lock down for ebola. We didn't lock down for AIDS.

Thork's guide to good governance ....

If you answer yes to any of the following questions, lock the country down. Otherwise, stop bunching your knickers.

1) If you survive the disease does it cause lasting damage such as blindness, deafness, gangrene, brain damage or paralysis?
2) Does it cause birth defects?
3) Does it have a high infant mortality rate?
4) Will it kill more than 5% of the population?
5) Do most sufferers have horrific symptoms such as agony, psychosis or coma?

If you answered No to every single question ... you shouldn't shut the country.


Uncontrolled, it could have a hundred million dead.
Utter poppycock. Find me a citation for a hundred million dead from covid without lockdowns.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 04, 2021, 10:19:24 PM
We didn't lock down for ebola. We didn't lock down for AIDS.
You don't catch those things if someone coughs on you.
If you had to bum someone to catch Corona there probably wouldn't have been lockdowns (apart from in your mum's house, lolz).
Seriously though, I do think lockdowns were the wrong response because the mortality rate is so low (it's about 1% all told, and if you're under 50 it's about 0%).
But I do think it's a situation which deserved a response, even if I think that the response was all wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on February 04, 2021, 10:22:44 PM
The response was obvious. Shield the weak. Allow them to hide away if they choose to do so ... let everyone else get on with their lives.


Then instead of all that stupid furlough money spent, build 30 field hospitals if you like. Create the finest health response on earth. Focus on care homes and the long term ill. It would have been way cheaper and not ruined so many lives.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 04, 2021, 10:26:28 PM
The response was obvious. Shield the weak. Allow them to hide away if they choose to do so ... let everyone else get on with their lives.
Basically right.
Although we live in a complicated interconnected society where that's a bit easier said than done.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 04, 2021, 11:16:44 PM

4) Will it kill more than 5% of the population?


In America that would be 15 million people.

But I will admit at least Thork has a specific, documented plan with metrics. Light years ahead of Trumps lack of plan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: caffemocha33 on May 06, 2021, 12:58:39 AM
I have no issues with this.  Its no different than a digital drivers license, digital boarding passes, digital payment, etc...

Its basically big tech taking paper documentation (which you'd need to have on you) and making it a secure digital copy that officials will accept instead of a piece of paper you printed out.

Do you believe that there's going to be any specific benefits in enforcing vaccine passports? Do you see any issue with it at all?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2021, 01:18:54 AM
Banning access to public spaces seems problematic to me. Banning access to private business, not so much. Especially something like air travel, which is a massive channel for transmission.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 06, 2021, 06:51:02 AM
Banning access to public spaces seems problematic to me. Banning access to private business, not so much.

Do you think a restaurant should be able to ask you if you have HIV? What about Grinder? Do you think Grinder should be able to check if you have HIV? Do you think you should have to send an HIV passport to use Grinder or Tinder or any other dating service to sign up? They are private businesses. Do you think other people using the service should receive text messages from state backed phone apps telling them they have been near someone with HIV? Could be very useful information after a first date to keep you safe. Unlike coronavirus, HIV is life changing for most people.

Should schools test all the kids for HIV? Kids are forever picking up cuts and bruises.

Should you need an HIV passport to go into a night club or a bar? I mean, you could infect other patrons ... especially as many are intoxicated.


If the answer is "No Thork, my liberal panties are bunching because you'd be persecuting the gays" ... then we can agree your medical history is private, companies do not have a right to it and that is why doctors swear a Hippocratic oath.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 06, 2021, 06:58:02 AM
Holy shit! How hard is this to understand?
You catch HIV from bumming, not from being coughed on by someone near you.
Stop with the false equivalence nonsense.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 06, 2021, 08:41:54 AM
And so if you join Grinder ... an app designed to help you get bummed ... should you have an HIV passport? Its not a false equivalence at all.

You have two pandemics. One, far more deadly than the other, and yet all the focus is on persecuting people with a sniffle and not those who can give you a lethal meat injection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2021, 09:01:06 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone. The government shouldn’t contact me about a possible case contact unless there is two party consent. Seems really simple to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 06, 2021, 09:24:24 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone.

I'll give you a bit more time to think about that one.

(https://theracecardproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/no-dogs-no-blacks-no-irish-sign.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 06, 2021, 10:21:54 AM
And so if you join Grinder ... an app designed to help you get bummed ... should you have an HIV passport? Its not a false equivalence at all.
I still think that's a false equivalence. No-one is suggesting Covid passports for Tinder, or meeting up with friends. What individuals do is up to them.
If you were booking a place at a gay orgy then I'd think a clean bill of health would be a reasonable requirement.

I'm generally against Covid Passports by the way. I had my jab because I can see this sort of thing happening, overall don't think the vaccine is going to harm me and having it will probably make it easier for me to travel. I succumbed to peer pressure somewhat because it seemed like the pragmatic thing to do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 06, 2021, 10:35:39 AM
I still think that's a false equivalence. No-one is suggesting Covid passports for Tinder, or meeting up with friends. What individuals do is up to them.
??? Then why have we just spent months in lockdown?

No, you cannot just get on a train or go to work or meet in a pub. What you do as an individual is not up to you.

It is not a false equivalence to compare two pandemics where one results in health passports and the other does not. Businesses are literally looking to discriminate against me based on my health records. Maybe businesses should remove expensive disabled ramps and toilets and just ban those unable to prove they can walk? Or maybe every restaurant should demand you provide a stool sample in advance and get checked for campylobacter and salmonella before coming into their restaurant? Maybe you should be stopped and checked for verrucae at your local pool before getting in? And why just covid? Why not prove you don't have flu? That kills old people too.

Covid passports are this fucking shit again (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006) via the backdoor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 06, 2021, 10:37:01 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone. The government shouldn’t contact me about a possible case contact unless there is two party consent. Seems really simple to me.
Simple enough that this should be the litmus test, regardless of why service is denied.

We look forward to your next request for a wedding cake.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2021, 10:54:37 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone. The government shouldn’t contact me about a possible case contact unless there is two party consent. Seems really simple to me.
Simple enough that this should be the litmus test, regardless of why service is denied.

We look forward to your next request for a wedding cake.

I dont have a philisophical problem with not baking a cake for same sex couples if you don't want.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on May 07, 2021, 09:11:02 PM
What I like about Covid is not wearing a mask, not getting sick, not getting a jab and receiving a blood clot.  I did get a whole bunch of free money to party with the babes, hug and kiss at the bars, while dancing up a storm. Woot its been fun and now we get to watch Satan bring all these folks to the throne of God for Judgement. Burn Bitchez Burn

Vaccine, not even close !  Jesus is the only cure........
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on May 07, 2021, 09:31:40 PM
No, this is The Cure.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/quietus_production/images/articles/26614/The-Cure-press-1000-web-optimised_1560322249_crop_550x330.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on May 26, 2021, 03:58:29 PM
First Jabber now DEAD...more Satan lovers to come. The shot is designed to kill...period !

https://twitter.com/WMLabour/status/1396865956203352064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1396865956203352064%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2021%2F05%2Ffirst-man-get-covid-19-vaccine-uk-dies-unrelated-illness%2F

We're sorry to hear of the death of Coventry Labour stalwart Bill Shakespeare. Bill made global headlines as 1st first man to have Covid vaccine. His decades of service to the party were recently recognised by @Keir_Starmer
. Our thoughts are with Joy and Bill's family & friends.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 26, 2021, 04:07:09 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 26, 2021, 04:26:51 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2021, 04:33:19 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?

Now please make sure you aren’t cherry picking anecdotes to suit your narrative by showing the numbers for all those who haven’t had adverse side effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 26, 2021, 04:35:32 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?

Now please make sure you aren’t cherry picking anecdotes to suit your narrative by showing the numbers for all those who haven’t had adverse side effects.
I didn't pick the anecdote. I'm just responding to the anecdote provided.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 26, 2021, 04:37:05 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.
But hey, he might have had another 10 years or more so I don't think that him being old should have been a reason for him not getting it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 26, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?

Apparently he had a stroke last year and "Mr Shakespeare, who had lived in Brownshill Green, was an inpatient on the hospital's frailty ward at the time of his first jab." That's why he was "locked away", as you say. And then had another stroke recently and died.

Are you saying we shouldn't waste vaccines on the old and frail and just let them perhaps catch covid and die on a respirator in a semi-coma?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 26, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2021, 06:05:44 PM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 26, 2021, 06:08:36 PM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 26, 2021, 06:24:45 PM
UAB Medicine News
 
Is it okay to postpone regular appointments, wellness checks, treatments, and surgeries recommended by my health care professional because of COVID-19?

It is important to continue taking care of your health and medical conditions during the COVID-19 pandemic. Please do not delay getting emergency care for any health condition. For specific medical concerns, we recommend calling and discussing them with your health care provider. Additionally, one may ask about alternative ways to access medical care during this time, such as telehealth visits.


Were they on Medicare? Trump did this, which was a good thing:

President Trump Expands Telehealth Benefits for Medicare Beneficiaries During COVID-19 Outbreak
Mar 17, 2020

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/press-releases/president-trump-expands-telehealth-benefits-medicare-beneficiaries-during-covid-19-outbreak

I had a routine telehealth visit last year. It wasn't ideal, but it led to a positive resolution.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on May 26, 2021, 09:07:27 PM
 Electro • a day ago

This just proves that the "vaccine" is working and doing it's intended purpose.

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    FiaT__LuX Electro • a day ago

    For 70 years they talked about 'The Great Culling' and bragged about how they were going to kill off 5/6 ths of the worlds population through 'Vaccines'... Now it's all just a coincidence.
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        Chuck Farly FiaT__LuX • a day ago • edited

The "vaccine" reprograms the mRNA in your cells to produce SPIKE PROTEINS , these toxic proteins will eventually kill you by stroke, blood clot, pulmonary embolism, respiratory illness or mad cow disease! That is how all the animal test subjects died!


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/first-man-get-covid-19-vaccine-uk-dies-unrelated-illness/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on May 26, 2021, 09:16:20 PM
The "vaccine" reprograms the mRNA in your cells to produce SPIKE PROTEINS , these toxic proteins will eventually kill you by stroke, blood clot, pulmonary embolism, respiratory illness or mad cow disease! That is how all the animal test subjects died!


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/first-man-get-covid-19-vaccine-uk-dies-unrelated-illness/

Yes, let's all follow J-Man's lead, and trust the words of gateway pundit or just draw out own conclusions based on whatever else we feel like regarding complex medical and cellular biology topics! Medical experts are stupid!

It's actually a complex form of eugenics, where they're thinning the herd by eliminating those with weak health and other genetic deficiencies. The powers that be (not the puppet governments they have us elect) are developing a genetically superior human race  so that our future fighters in the upcoming alien conflicts will be more resilient and we wont have to worry as much about biological collateral damage, given that they will be much more technologically superior to us, we will be forced to defend ourselves using augmented biological weapons.

Theyve effectively catered an efficient us against them narrative throughout this plandemic so that eyes will be away from the real story.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 26, 2021, 09:41:46 PM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 10:21:47 AM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer?
They didn't get to go to regular, required visits because of the lockdowns.

A telehealth visit isn't going to give a doctor or other type of provider a chance to perform a physical examination of the patient.

In my brother-in-law's case, cancer.

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 27, 2021, 10:37:39 AM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer?
They didn't get to go to regular, required visits because of the lockdowns.

A telehealth visit isn't going to give a doctor or other type of provider a chance to perform a physical examination of the patient.

In my brother-in-law's case, cancer.

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.

Masks can't create bacteria and unless you don't wash your mask for days, you aren't gonna get any bacteria growth enough to make ya sick.

Also: Cancer takes years to kill.  How the hell did it not get detected in 2019?  And when they went to the hospital, what, was it stage 4 for both?  Because two people, dying of cancer at the same time... Sounds like an issue with where they lived, like if their water or soil was radioactive or toxic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:21 AM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer?
They didn't get to go to regular, required visits because of the lockdowns.

A telehealth visit isn't going to give a doctor or other type of provider a chance to perform a physical examination of the patient.

In my brother-in-law's case, cancer.

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.

Masks can't create bacteria and unless you don't wash your mask for days, you aren't gonna get any bacteria growth enough to make ya sick.

Also: Cancer takes years to kill.  How the hell did it not get detected in 2019?  And when they went to the hospital, what, was it stage 4 for both?  Because two people, dying of cancer at the same time... Sounds like an issue with where they lived, like if their water or soil was radioactive or toxic.
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

My sister and brother-in-law were living as cancer patients for years.

In both cases, the ability to have regular physical examinations was curtailed due to LOCKDOWN restrictions enacted by the BS peddlers of doom porn, such as you and the rest here, thus hastening their deaths.

I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 27, 2021, 12:04:35 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 27, 2021, 12:09:19 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

Says the man who thinks he knows more than scientists...

Sorry for your loss, and all that. But it sounds like your relatives had ongoing health conditions which would have got them in the end.
It's possible that certain appointments being missed sped that up, and I do think the pandemic will cause deaths because of things like that or missed diagnoses. But the pandemic is a real situation which required a response - according to MDs, the people you are claiming know better than us. Whether it was the right response...probably not, but doing nothing wasn't really an option.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 05:39:59 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

Says the man who thinks he knows more than scientists...

Sorry for your loss, and all that. But it sounds like your relatives had ongoing health conditions which would have got them in the end.
It's possible that certain appointments being missed sped that up, and I do think the pandemic will cause deaths because of things like that or missed diagnoses. But the pandemic is a real situation which required a response - according to MDs, the people you are claiming know better than us. Whether it was the right response...probably not, but doing nothing wasn't really an option.
Everybody has something that gets them in the end.

It was most certainly people with your mindset that helped to expedite things.

So, you got that going for you.

Nothing needed to be done, except for the meeley-minded, weak-kneed, henny pennies (kinda like you) needed to STFU and go lay down in their own corner.

Sane, sober minded people understand that death is a given and not one minute is guaranteed from the time of conception.

As a Malthusian, you add zero intrinsic value to any human endeavor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
I disagreed with less MD's than you did, truth be told.

When you are on the side of evil and when it comes to life in this world, evil will win out.

So, you, being a flow with the current kinda guy (content with all the enemas fueling your thinking sort, you know), believe the world policy of the day is good, rather than actually evil.

So in short Rama, I realize what your opinion is.

And I don't give a fuck.

You opinion is worthless to me.

You are part of the vicious killers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on May 27, 2021, 06:20:02 PM
Missed screenings is definitely a problem that is coming up. However, most articles are citing that patients were the ones cancelling appointments during the lockdown or unwilling to utilize telehealth visits.

An article from WebMD even said:
Quote
The study also found that telehealth visits, which were widely used for the first time during the pandemic, were associated with better screening rates.

"Telehealth has a measurable positive effect on whether patients get their cancer screenings," Chen said. "This study also justifies a continued use of telehealth even after the pandemic."

I know that there were definitely still regular appointments happening in some capacity during lockdown. But, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some healthcare providers did push back or cancel appointments if they did not consider them urgent.

The decline in screenings during the lockdown is pretty fucked up, but there's really not anyone to blame here. Hospitals and clinics were at the forefront of the pandemic, they were not fueled by any 'doom porn.'
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 27, 2021, 07:18:05 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
I disagreed with less MD's than you did, truth be told.

Oh cool. How many did I disagree with and how many did you disagree with?

Quote
When you are on the side of evil and when it comes to life in this world, evil will win out.

So, you, being a flow with the current kinda guy (content with all the enemas fueling your thinking sort, you know), believe the world policy of the day is good, rather than actually evil.

You distilled it to good vs evil. This is the lack of reasoning skills I was referring to. In reality there were always going to be casualties, so this was about reacting in real time to mitigate casualties. I’m surprised you don’t understand this considering the bug conservative talking point was about letting the old and infirm die for the economy. I’m sorry to say that the conservative alternative would have also presented serious public health risks to your siblings.

Quote
So in short Rama, I realize what your opinion is.

And I don't give a fuck.

You opinion is worthless to me.

You are part of the vicious killers.

One day you’ll realize that a lack of coherent public health strategy was the biggest killer in the US. 50 States and the Federal government all trying to curry favor in an election year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 28, 2021, 10:23:50 AM
Missed screenings is definitely a problem that is coming up. However, most articles are citing that patients were the ones cancelling appointments during the lockdown or unwilling to utilize telehealth visits.

An article from WebMD even said:
Quote
The study also found that telehealth visits, which were widely used for the first time during the pandemic, were associated with better screening rates.

"Telehealth has a measurable positive effect on whether patients get their cancer screenings," Chen said. "This study also justifies a continued use of telehealth even after the pandemic."

I know that there were definitely still regular appointments happening in some capacity during lockdown. But, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some healthcare providers did push back or cancel appointments if they did not consider them urgent.

The decline in screenings during the lockdown is pretty fucked up, but there's really not anyone to blame here. Hospitals and clinics were at the forefront of the pandemic, they were not fueled by any 'doom porn.'
Yeah, more BS.

How do you get screened for cancer over the phone?

Elective surgeries and doctor office  visits were curtailed, at least in this area.

For several months at the beginning of the "henny penny," shit show, you couldn't even leave the fucking house if you were not considered an "essential worker."

Revisionist history is another favorite tool of all of you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 28, 2021, 10:28:41 AM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
I disagreed with less MD's than you did, truth be told.

Oh cool. How many did I disagree with and how many did you disagree with?

Quote
When you are on the side of evil and when it comes to life in this world, evil will win out.

So, you, being a flow with the current kinda guy (content with all the enemas fueling your thinking sort, you know), believe the world policy of the day is good, rather than actually evil.

You distilled it to good vs evil. This is the lack of reasoning skills I was referring to. In reality there were always going to be casualties, so this was about reacting in real time to mitigate casualties. I’m surprised you don’t understand this considering the bug conservative talking point was about letting the old and infirm die for the economy. I’m sorry to say that the conservative alternative would have also presented serious public health risks to your siblings.
You did listen to less MD's than I and took up sides with those famous, well known conservatives, such as Andrew Cuomo, Gavin Newsome, Gretchen Whitmer, and even your beloved Doug Ford, Justin Trudeau, and all the rest of the freedom loving songbirds, who have killed hundreds of thousands of elderly people, condemning to a life alone in the nursing homes.

Yeah, big conservative talking point.

Freaking loser. 
Quote
So in short Rama, I realize what your opinion is.

And I don't give a fuck.

You opinion is worthless to me.

You are part of the vicious killers.

One day you’ll realize that a lack of coherent public health strategy was the biggest killer in the US. 50 States and the Federal government all trying to curry favor in an election year.
I realize it was a fucked up system of virtue signaling (propogated by the people of like you, the fine head up their ass type) that helped to fuel it.

Substituting overall public health in favor of "the sky is falling."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 28, 2021, 01:29:43 PM
You did listen to less MD's than I and took up sides with those famous, well known conservatives, such as Andrew Cuomo, Gavin Newsome, Gretchen Whitmer, and even your beloved Doug Ford, Justin Trudeau, and all the rest of the freedom loving songbirds, who have killed hundreds of thousands of elderly people, condemning to a life alone in the nursing homes.

See this is a prpoblem for you as well as Tom.  I actually think the lockdowns Canada and the US did were the worst most harmful version of them and caused more death than anything short of not doing anything.  But hey, keep making up the narrative that makes you feel better.

Quote
Yeah, big conservative talking point.

Yeah (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents)

Quote
Freaking loser. 

Stay classy.

Quote
I realize it was a fucked up system of virtue signaling (propogated by the people of like you, the fine head up their ass type) that helped to fuel it.

Substituting overall public health in favor of "the sky is falling."

I agree it wasn't well handled, they needed to do something more than a half-measured lockdown because they were afraid of the political optics.  Doing nothing was the only worse thing they could have done.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shane on May 28, 2021, 02:02:25 PM
Do not get the vaccine it is a trick I feel like pure shit
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on May 28, 2021, 02:50:18 PM
How do you get screened for cancer over the phone?
I don't know, I've never had a telehealth visit. But it apparently helped, even if it just prompted a follow-up in-person visit.

Quote
Elective surgeries and doctor office  visits were curtailed, at least in this area.
CMS required certain personal protective equipment be available for elective surgeries. But some hospitals cancelled them altogether in order to make room for Covid patients. Again, I don't think this is for doom porn, hospitals would know best what they needed to do to function safely. Hospitals took a big hit financially so if they could continue appointments then they were going to try their best. I don't know how many places did this, but some appointments even had you come in and only see one person (the nurse or maybe an x-ray technician, etc.) so that you could get bloodwork done or an x-ray taken and then have a telehealth follow-up with the provider.

But if they cancelled your relatives' appointments then that really is surprising and awful considering they were known to have cancer.

Quote
For several months at the beginning of the "henny penny," shit show, you couldn't even leave the fucking house if you were not considered an "essential worker."
A lot of people were considered 'essential' though. Hell, I was able to keep going to my monthly orthodontist visits and I live in California.

Quote
Revisionist history is another favorite tool of all of you.
What am I revising? Screenings were absolutely missed during lockdown and it's a shitty thing, but again, who is to blame? Hospitals aren't focused on what the news or liberals are saying during a pandemic. Everything about the pandemic here could have been handled better but people saying not to go outside for brunches and influencer parties ain't it. It's been bad for many, many people for various reasons - but that's the nature of pandemics. If it was taken seriously long before it might not have been such a devastating problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pongo on May 28, 2021, 03:07:15 PM
You can get a reasonable diagnosis of some skin cancers from a telehealth visit. Similarly, maybe cancers can be identified by simply showing your drivers license on a telehealth call.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 28, 2021, 06:56:31 PM
Masks can't create bacteria and unless you don't wash your mask for days, you aren't gonna get any bacteria growth enough to make ya sick.

Also: Cancer takes years to kill.  How the hell did it not get detected in 2019?  And when they went to the hospital, what, was it stage 4 for both?  Because two people, dying of cancer at the same time... Sounds like an issue with where they lived, like if their water or soil was radioactive or toxic.
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.
Considering I was agreeing with him... not how you think I know more or less?
Unless you were quoting him about the whole BS thing.  But I doubt that.
Yes, wearing the mask gave her phneumonia. Specifically, wearing a wet, unwashed mask.  See, bacteria are everywhere and they thrive in hot, moist areas.  When you wear a cloth mask, or any mask, over and over again without washing it properly, the warmth of your breath and the saliva and water from your breathing get trapped, making it a perfect place for bacteria.
This risk can be eliminated by washing the mask daily or using single use masks and disposing of them after you have used them for about 4 hours.

So yes, her doctor probably said "Your constant wearing of an unwashed/unsteralized mask is what made you sick."


Quote
My sister and brother-in-law were living as cancer patients for years.

In both cases, the ability to have regular physical examinations was curtailed due to LOCKDOWN restrictions enacted by the BS peddlers of doom porn, such as you and the rest here, thus hastening their deaths.
Ok.  So lets unpack this.
So both of them had cancer for years.  So they were in stage 4. (Well, the brother-in-law was anyway)
So, what, pray tell, do they do at the regular checkups that would have helped?  What treatments would have been done had the doctors known that your brother's cancer was spreading faster? Because from my understanding, a GP isn't going to do a biopsy or an MRI in the office.  They can do a prostate check and they can do a mammagram.  But as I understand it, both of those are to detect the presence of cancerous growth, not so much measure how much it was spread.

I would also find it VERY ODD that cancer patients who need regular checkups on their cancer would have been denied such visits to whichever doctor or hospital they went to.  Only because regular checkups are "I feel fine, just check me out" while what YOU described is "We need to do this to see how bad this disease we already know you have, is getting". 

Do you have any supporting evidence of this?  Anything that can verify that your family members were denied being able to see their doctor about their cancer?  Or do we just take your word for it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on May 29, 2021, 01:59:07 AM
Do you have any supporting evidence of this?  Anything that can verify that your family members were denied being able to see their doctor about their cancer?  Or do we just take your word for it?

Dave, if you could please refrain from asking for specifics on other member's families and their medical history, that would be great. You should be well aware that when someone provides such anecdotal evidence that saying "Do you have any evidence of that?" is not only silly (their statement is the evidence, you simply choose whether to believe it or not) but also against the forum rules as you are requesting more specific information about personal matters.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 29, 2021, 07:41:50 AM
Do you have any supporting evidence of this?  Anything that can verify that your family members were denied being able to see their doctor about their cancer?  Or do we just take your word for it?

Dave, if you could please refrain from asking for specifics on other member's families and their medical history, that would be great. You should be well aware that when someone provides such anecdotal evidence that saying "Do you have any evidence of that?" is not only silly (their statement is the evidence, you simply choose whether to believe it or not) but also against the forum rules as you are requesting more specific information about personal matters.

Fair, sorrry.

I just really can't believe a doctor's office would just be like "Nope, your regular cancer checkup is not gonna happen anymore because of Corona."

Like a news article or Press statement stating doctor's offices must remain closed for all reasons.  Even medically important ones.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on May 30, 2021, 08:14:39 PM
Here in the Netherlands, we recently got a quarter of the population vaccinated. It should be available to my age group sometime in June, at which point I will get it as soon as possible so I can put all this funny business behind me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on May 30, 2021, 08:27:13 PM
Here in the Netherlands, we recently got a quarter of the population vaccinated. It should be available to my age group sometime in June, at which point I will get it as soon as possible so I can put all this funny business behind me.

Wow, you guys are behind. I've had both shots and will be fully vaccinated as of tomorrow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 30, 2021, 08:32:30 PM
Here in the Netherlands, we recently got a quarter of the population vaccinated. It should be available to my age group sometime in June, at which point I will get it as soon as possible so I can put all this funny business behind me.

Wow, you guys are behind. I've had both shots and will be fully vaccinated as of tomorrow.

Some countries horded vaccine doses...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 30, 2021, 08:33:34 PM
Have to say, as much as the UK government bumbled around messing pretty much everything up last year, the vaccination program has been one of the best in the world. The missus has had both jabs, my second is in July.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on May 30, 2021, 08:34:49 PM
Wow, you guys are behind. I've had both shots and will be fully vaccinated as of tomorrow.

We are vaccinating as quickly as we receive the vaccines. The supply chain is the problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on May 30, 2021, 08:45:18 PM
I'm fully vaxxxed as of yesterday.

My arm was very sore for a few days after the first one, but that was the only symptom I had aside from a little lightheadedness that only lasted a couple hours after both jabs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 30, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Some countries horded vaccine doses...

That is a vile and disgusting accusation.  >o<


We ordered only 457million doses. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1193154/covid-19-vaccine-doses-ordered-by-the-uk/

And there are 66.65 million of us (https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+uk&oq=population+of+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57.2608j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!  :o

You want us to be safe, don't you Dave? We need those vaccines to be safe!   >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 30, 2021, 09:37:51 PM
So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!


Its Ok, the UK has ordered another 60 million doses in the last week so we now have more than 500 million.
https://news.sky.com/story/another-covid-vaccine-set-to-enter-production-within-weeks-and-uk-has-60m-doses-ordered-12318119


(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/A1D7/production/_118713414_optimised-uk_vax_doses-nc.png)

With almost 8 jabs each, our government is keeping us safe and this is absolutely not an indication that you'll need bi-annual jabs for the rest of your life. No. Just 2 jabs each. We just have 500 million vaccines each just in case we have 220 million babies suddenly. Better to be safe than sorry. You understand, right Dave? And India understands. They aren't annoyed about it in the slightest.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-india-52684569
Also Indian lives matter. Honest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on May 31, 2021, 06:31:30 AM
So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!  :o
Fewer than. Fewer than!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on May 31, 2021, 02:47:28 PM
So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!  :o
Fewer than. Fewer than!
Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all that immunity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 02, 2021, 06:14:46 AM
How do you get people in West Virgina, Maryland, Colorado, California, and Ohio vaccinated?

Bribery! (https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/1002345101/guns-trucks-and-trips-west-virginia-expands-prizes-for-vaccinated-residents?sc=18&f=1001)

I'm curious how our conservative thinkers feel about using federal TAX PAYER MONEY to give out guns, trucks, vacations, and $1.5 million?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2021, 09:06:43 AM
I'm curious how our conservative thinkers feel about using federal TAX PAYER MONEY to give out guns, trucks, vacations, and $1.5 million?
Sounds pretty based, not gonna lie.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 02, 2021, 03:46:20 PM
I'm curious how our conservative thinkers feel about using federal TAX PAYER MONEY to give out guns, trucks, vacations, and $1.5 million?
Sounds pretty based, not gonna lie.

Based?  Or Biased?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2021, 08:04:13 PM
Based?  Or Biased?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGVWGqo5e0
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 12:14:08 AM
I am still not vaccinated. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I die horribly from the flu.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 04, 2021, 01:54:52 AM
lol @ the test animals here who took an experimental vaccine and risked their health on blind faith for a sticker and a box of juice

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/doctor-on-covid-vax-we-screwed-up-we-didn-t-realize-the-spike-protein-is-a-toxin-does-this-mean-everyone-vaccinated-is-manufacturing-their-own-spike-protein-toxins-in-their-own-bodies

Quote
Doctor on COVID Vax: "We Screwed-Up. We didn't realize the Spike Protein is a TOXIN" Does this mean everyone vaccinated is manufacturing their own Spike Protein Toxins in their own bodies?

Audio from a radio show has emerged wherein Dr. Byram Bridle reveals the scientists behind the COVID-19 "Vaccine" made a terrible mistake.

According to the Doctor, who cites a brand new, peer-reviewed research study out of Japan "They made a mistake - they thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, only to discover it is a toxin, that can travel to many organs of the body, causing severe damage."

WORSE,  the spike proteins generated by mRNA vaccines don’t stay in the shoulder muscle, but spread to the brain, heart, ovaries, etc.

They also know that the spike protein is what causes the damage with COVID—and now it is clear how it is causing so much damage in other parts of the bodies of the vaccinated.

From the video below Dr. Bridle on why the vax injuries are happening:

"Spike protein, on its own is the cause of the vascular, neurodegenerative, problems, not the virus.

In the original theory it stay's in deltoid, goes to local draining lymph node, activates immune system.
But a new bio-distribution study from Japan tracked the vax and spike proteins.

It gets into the blood within days of vax, accumulates in spleen, brain, bone marrow, liver, adrenal glands, with high concentrations in ovaries.

Spike protein is a pathogenic toxin that causes damage if in circulation, binds to platelets, epithelial cells of blood vessels, clotting, bleeding, heart problems, brain blood clotting."

Conclusion is "We made a big mistake, and didn't realize it till now." "We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen but never knew the spike protein itself was a pathogenic toxin protein." "By vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 04, 2021, 05:01:20 AM
Based?  Or Biased?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGVWGqo5e0

The article I posted.


lol @ the test animals here who took an experimental vaccine and risked their health on blind faith for a sticker and a box of juice

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/doctor-on-covid-vax-we-screwed-up-we-didn-t-realize-the-spike-protein-is-a-toxin-does-this-mean-everyone-vaccinated-is-manufacturing-their-own-spike-protein-toxins-in-their-own-bodies

Quote
Doctor on COVID Vax: "We Screwed-Up. We didn't realize the Spike Protein is a TOXIN" Does this mean everyone vaccinated is manufacturing their own Spike Protein Toxins in their own bodies?

Audio from a radio show has emerged wherein Dr. Byram Bridle reveals the scientists behind the COVID-19 "Vaccine" made a terrible mistake.

According to the Doctor, who cites a brand new, peer-reviewed research study out of Japan "They made a mistake - they thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, only to discover it is a toxin, that can travel to many organs of the body, causing severe damage."

WORSE,  the spike proteins generated by mRNA vaccines don’t stay in the shoulder muscle, but spread to the brain, heart, ovaries, etc.

They also know that the spike protein is what causes the damage with COVID—and now it is clear how it is causing so much damage in other parts of the bodies of the vaccinated.

From the video below Dr. Bridle on why the vax injuries are happening:

"Spike protein, on its own is the cause of the vascular, neurodegenerative, problems, not the virus.

In the original theory it stay's in deltoid, goes to local draining lymph node, activates immune system.
But a new bio-distribution study from Japan tracked the vax and spike proteins.

It gets into the blood within days of vax, accumulates in spleen, brain, bone marrow, liver, adrenal glands, with high concentrations in ovaries.

Spike protein is a pathogenic toxin that causes damage if in circulation, binds to platelets, epithelial cells of blood vessels, clotting, bleeding, heart problems, brain blood clotting."

Conclusion is "We made a big mistake, and didn't realize it till now." "We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen but never knew the spike protein itself was a pathogenic toxin protein." "By vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin."

Isn't an antigen the thing we use in the vaccine to train the body's immune system to fight?
The same spike protienes that are on the corona virus?

So isn't it GOOD that the body attacks and destroys the spike protiene?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 09:52:14 AM
Dr. Bridle appears to be less than honest. First off, the vaccine doesn’t create spike protein, it creates part of the protein. Second, the protein never leaves the cell where it is created. Being a well respected viral immunologist he must have know this, so why is he saying this? Maybe it has to do with the money he got from the Ontario government to create a vaccine that is based on spike protein?

https://byrambridle.com/

This site goes through Dr. Bridle’s claims and links to the studies they are based on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 04, 2021, 06:57:56 PM
I am still not vaccinated. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I die horribly from the flu.
Or, more likely, you won’t get that ill (if you’re fairly young) but you could pass it into someone who is at risk. Or you could get long Covid which I know people who have had and it isn’t super fun.
This isn’t just the flu. It might not be an “ZOMG LETS SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY” level event either but it’s definitely a situation which demanded a response.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pongo on June 08, 2021, 02:54:39 AM
I’m fully vaxxed. No side effects except I got kind of tired the night of the second shot and it turned me hella gay.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 08, 2021, 11:37:53 AM
I’m fully vaxxed. No side effects except I got kind of tired the night of the second shot and it turned me hella gay.

I hear being gay adds 20 years to life expectancy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 09, 2021, 09:43:44 AM
I don't like Russell Brand. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I loathe the bastard and his liberal politics. But, just because most of what he says is shit, doesn't mean he is consistently always wrong.

His view on why the West refused to believe that the virus came from a Chinese lab a few miles from the source of the outbreak and instead told everyone it came from a bat several thousand miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwAuSDQX_OY

The tl;dr ... the West has a narrative that science will always provide the solutions. An inexorable drive for progress spurred on by corporate profits. But what if science was increasingly becoming the source of all our problems? What if science didn't provide the solutions to the pandemic, but instead increasingly caused them? Can pharma companies rely on government grants and handouts from a supportive tax base when those funds are used to hurt that self same set of tax payers?

I think this "science solves everything and answers all our prayers" narrative is particularly prevalent on these forums. The blind faith placed in these institutions by patrons of this site never ceases to amaze.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 10, 2021, 06:52:37 PM
Whoooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Face masks on, lock all the businesses, find me a vaccine and spend all our tax money. Forget coronavirus. We have bigger problems.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57431322
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2021, 02:26:07 AM
Dr. Bridle appears to be less than honest. First off, the vaccine doesn’t create spike protein, it creates part of the protein. Second, the protein never leaves the cell where it is created. Being a well respected viral immunologist he must have know this, so why is he saying this?

Why? Oh, I know this one. Dr. Bridle is the respected viral immunologist and you are not.

Quote
https://byrambridle.com/

This site goes through Dr. Bridle’s claims and links to the studies they are based on.

So an anonymous author of a website with no stated credentials is saying that a viral immunologist is wrong. Seems to be a trend from you of either citing yourself or anonymous internet comments. Nor do any of those links on that site reference long term studies. The vaccine has not been tested long term.

You were better off citing yourself as your source and your extensive non-specific experience with watching youtube videos. At least there is a chance of someone actually claiming to be an expert in those videos.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 11, 2021, 04:04:51 AM
Dr. Bridle appears to be less than honest. First off, the vaccine doesn’t create spike protein, it creates part of the protein. Second, the protein never leaves the cell where it is created. Being a well respected viral immunologist he must have know this, so why is he saying this?

Why? Oh, I know this one. Dr. Bridle is the respected viral immunologist and you are not.

Quote
https://byrambridle.com/

This site goes through Dr. Bridle’s claims and links to the studies they are based on.

Well, here are three authorities to your one that are basically calling bullshit on Bridle's claims - Are 3 better than one?

Spike protein produced by vaccine not toxic

"Dr. Dan Kaul, an infectious disease expert at the University of Michigan, said that the vaccines have been proven safe and effective through clinical trials and the millions of people who have so far received the vaccines in the U.S. “In terms of the spike protein itself being pathogenic in some way that’s just simply not true,” he said in response to Bridle’s claims.

In the interview, Bridle says that the spike proteins generated by the vaccines don’t stay in the shoulder muscle, but spread and are “causing so much damage in other parts of the bodies of the vaccinated.” But Dr. Adam Ratner, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at NYU Langone Health, said that vaccines are mostly concentrated at the site of injection or the local lymph nodes.
“What was said in the radio show was completely inaccurate,” Ratner said. “There is no spike protein in the vaccines first of all. The amounts that are made after the mRNA is injected are very small and it almost exclusively stays locally. It is nowhere near the amount he was talking about.”

Bridle left out key details of the study, which relied on an ultrasensitive detection tool, said Matchett, of University of Minnesota (William Matchett, a vaccine researcher at the University of Minnesota Medical School).
“The spike became undetectable by 14 days after the first dose of the vaccine,” Matchett said of the study. “After the second dose, they could not detect the spike protein in the blood of any of the participants because the participants had all generated anti-spike antibodies.”
Bridle also mentioned a Japanese study to support his claims about the spike protein. But the study, which is written in Japanese, does not look at spike proteins from the vaccine, Matchett said.


https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-377989296609
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2021, 04:14:54 AM
You quoted an "infectious disease expert," a "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher". Dr. Bridle is a viral immunologist.

https://www.longdom.org/scholarly/viral-immunology-journals-articles-ppts-list-4339.html

Quote
Viral Immunology

viral immunology is the study of viral infections and immune responses towards viral infections which can cause deleterious effect on the functions of the cells. It includes both DNA and RNA viral infections.

So you haven't quoted anyone who is a specialist in the immune response towards viral infections.

Maybe it will help if you quote a few more pediatricians.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 11, 2021, 05:22:58 AM
You quoted an "infectious disease expert," a "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher". Dr. Bridle is a viral immunologist.

https://www.longdom.org/scholarly/viral-immunology-journals-articles-ppts-list-4339.html

Quote
Viral Immunology

viral immunology is the study of viral infections and immune responses towards viral infections which can cause deleterious effect on the functions of the cells. It includes both DNA and RNA viral infections.

So you haven't quoted anyone who is a specialist in the immune response towards viral infections.

Maybe it will help if you quote a few more pediatricians.  ::)

Maybe it would help to quote a few more animal doctors...

Byram Bridle, Associate professor of viral immunology at the University of Guelph (@OVCPathobiology)

“OVC”= "Ontario Veterinary College”

Is your guy actually a Vet?

I'll take my "infectious disease expert," "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher", over your veterinary immunologist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 11, 2021, 05:35:01 AM
Tom, once again, clings to experts that happen to agree with him, dismissing all others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2021, 06:01:40 AM
Maybe it would help to quote a few more animal doctors...

Byram Bridle, Associate professor of viral immunology at the University of Guelph (@OVCPathobiology)

“OVC”= "Ontario Veterinary College”

Is your guy actually a Vet?

I'll take my "infectious disease expert," "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher", over your veterinary immunologist.

Wow. So here is some news for you: Scientists study animals for the purposes of human health.

Try reading his website profile:

https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/pathobiology/people/faculty/Byram-W-Bridle

Quote
At the intersection of these two programs, is a research initiative aimed at modifying the research team's optimized cancer vaccine platforms to target severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV)-2, which is the causative agent of the coronavirus disease identified at the end of 2019 (COVID-19). The long-term goal is to have a flexible technological platform to rapidly develop vaccines against highly pathogenic coronaviruses that may emerge in the future.

...

The Bridle lab is or has been funded by:

Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC)
Terry Fox Research Institute
Canadian Cancer Society,
Cancer Research Society
Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation

Obviously Dr. Bridle must be wanting to create coronavirus vaccines for dogs. And the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation is super interested in curing breast cancer in cats.

We can clearly see that Dr. Bridle was trained in human health viral immunology:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/472827d6-3b15-4c33-834a-970e550df358/downloads/Affidavit%20of%20Expert%20Witness%20B.%20Bridle%20-%20Respon.pdf?ver=1620059730771

(https://i.imgur.com/Yo8dvTg.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/eirmp4p.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 11, 2021, 11:23:53 AM
Tom, touting your viral immunologist as a Trump card has to be some of the most desperate tactics I’ve seen. You know who the vaccine was designed by, right? Instead of clinging to this sad, fallacious argument perhaps find out what other relevant scientists are saying?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 11, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
Tom, touting your viral immunologist as a Trump card has to be some of the most desperate tactics I’ve seen. You know who the vaccine was designed by, right? Instead of clinging to this sad, fallacious argument perhaps find out what other relevant scientists are saying?
This is Tom's MO.
I think we can all agree that there will be a range of opinions even amongst experts and there will be some outliers who have views which are not shared by the majority of experts in a field. So you can find an "expert" who will back up any viewpoint - especially if you are even more honest and quote part of what they say out of context to make it look like they're saying something other than what they're actually saying.

So this is what Tom does, he just finds the expert with the extreme opinion which backs up what he wants to hear and declares them as his star witness. All the other expert opinions are ignored or disregarded. Very dishonest way of arguing but Tom's gotta Tom I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 11, 2021, 01:26:12 PM
The vaccine has not been tested long term.

please cite the long-term health effect studies for covid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on June 11, 2021, 01:50:28 PM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 12, 2021, 02:46:25 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.

Dude! I just got my second vaccine and now I'm magnetized!  No, I'm serious! Small metal objects stick to me!

I'm going back for another shot! I'm going to increase my magnetic field! My power will grow!!!

I AM MAGNETO!  FEAR ME!!!

oh, wait, it fell off... hang on...  almost got it stuck...  got to really press to get it to stick...   there....

I AM MAGNETO!!!

https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/06/10/nurse-uses-key-hairpin-try-prove-she-is-magnetic-vaccine-during-ohio-house-hearing-video/

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2021/06/09/doctor-sherri-tenpenny-testimony-ohio-lawmakers-vaccines-magnetized-5-g/7616027002/

https://www.newsweek.com/man-attempt-vaccine-magnet-theory-fails-admits-wrong-1599322
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 12, 2021, 09:19:06 PM
I have a new conspiracy theory.

Coronavirus became a pandemic because of gain of function research that escaped from a lab. However ... we keep seeing new variants emerge, each more contagious than the last. Convenient that the improvement about all these new variants seems to be its contagiousness.

I think these new variants are man-made and the US and its Chinese partner are continuing the development of their bio-weapons and unleashing them on the public to gain more data. Under the guise of 'natural mutations' they release new improved variants in different parts of the world to cover their tracks and then monitor the effects. They know they will never get an opportunity like this ever again, to experiment on the public like this.

You heard it at tfes.org first.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 03:42:10 AM
Another scientist, in the journal Microbiology & Infectious Diseases:

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

J. Bart Classen, MD

Abstract: "Development of new vaccine technology has been plagued with problems in the past. The current RNA based SARS-CoV-2 vaccines were approved in the US using an emergency order without extensive long term safety testing. In this paper the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine was evaluated for the potential to induce prion-based disease in vaccine recipients. The RNA sequence of the vaccine as well as the spike protein target interaction were analyzed for the potential to convert intracellular RNA binding proteins TAR DNA binding protein (TDP-43) and Fused in Sarcoma (FUS) into their pathologic prion conformations. The results indicate that the vaccine RNA has specific sequences that may induce TDP-43 and FUS to fold into their pathologic prion confirmations. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. Potential G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but a more sophisticated computer program is needed to verify these. Furthermore, the spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme. This interaction has the potential to increase intracellular zinc. Zinc ions have been shown to cause the transformation of TDP-43 to its pathologic prion configuration. The folding of TDP-43 and FUS into their pathologic prion confirmations is known to cause ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases. The enclosed finding as well as additional potential risks leads the author to believe that regulatory approval of the RNA based vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 was premature and that the vaccine may cause much more harm than benefit."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 05:31:27 AM
Regarding the author of the paper, Dr. J. Bart Classen, it took about 3 seconds to find a wiki article on him. He is apparently a well known antivaxxer. And the journal that published the article in question seems to be of semi-dubious reputation...

John Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist.[1] He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.[2][3] He is best known for publishing research concluding that vaccines, in particular the Hib vaccine, cause insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,[4] a hypothesis he proposed based on experiments he conducted on mice in 1996.[5] His views are disputed and considered unverified.

A widely-reposted 2021 Facebook post claiming that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 could cause prion diseases was based on a paper by Classen. The paper "COVID-19 RNA based vaccines and the risk of prion disease" was published in Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, whose publisher, Scivision Publishers, is included in Beall's list of publishers of predatory journals. Vincent Racaniello, professor of microbiology and immunology at Columbia University, described the claim as "completely wrong".[1][6][7] Tulane University virologist Robert Garry stated that Classen has offered no evidence for the three pillars of his argument: that the sequence overlaps between the Pfizer vaccine are greater than occur with any randomly-selected stretch of RNA, or that the vaccine could cause zinc to be released and that doing so would affect its purported targets as he proposes.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bart_Classen

Regarding the publisher as a potential predatory journal, https://beallslist.net/

Predatory journals as listed by Beall from the University of Colorado, "The list aimed to document open-access publishers who did not perform real peer review, effectively publishing any article as long as the authors pay the open access fee."

Politifact rates his previous antivax claim as a "pants on fire":

(https://i.imgur.com/1wtL8s7.png)
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/j-bart-classen/

Specific to his covid vaccine claims, more info here:

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT
- Classen’s paper presents no evidence other than a three-sentence methods section that summarizes an unspecified analysis of the COVID-19 vaccine.
- Coronavirus vaccines developed by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna have not been linked to neurodegenerative or prion diseases.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/26/j-bart-classen/coronavirus-vaccine-doesnt-cause-alzheimers-als/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 05:35:47 AM
Did you bother checking your sources?

You are quoting what appears to be 23 year old child on the internet with no claimed or relevant credentials.

(https://i.imgur.com/zexhL4V.png)

This has happened numerous times with you. You could have easily clicked on his profile and seen your source, but you opt to quote anonymous Wikipedia articles, anonymous wordpress websites, and unqualified individuals.

You are trying to debunk medical researchers with unqualified sources. Seriously, just think about that for a while. How disappointing that your tactics have no integrity at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 06:44:19 AM
This has happened numerous times with you. You could have easily clicked on his profile and seen your source, but you opt to quote anonymous Wikipedia articles, anonymous wordpress websites, and unqualified individuals.

You apparently didn’t read the Politifact article which cites expert, you know, the “qualified” type sources you so deeply regard.

And I guess this means you’ll be stripping out all of the, as you say, “anonymous Wikipedia” citations/references from your wiki? I look forward to perusing the new and improved tfes wiki when you’re done.

You are trying to debunk medical researchers with unqualified sources. Seriously, just think about that for a while. How disappointing that your tactics have no integrity at all.

Here are some more qualified sources to add. From Reuters, with more experts cited:

Fact Check-No evidence that Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine causes Alzheimer’s disease

“Having reviewed the paper, which is less than three pages long and provides only three sentences describing its methodology, Dr Albert Hofman, a clinical epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health (here), told Reuters by phone that the paper provides no evidence for the author’s findings, which he described as “untenable.”

“Dr Irina Skylar-Scott, a neurologist at Stanford Hospitals and Clinics who specializes in Alzheimer’s and other disorders of cognition and behavior (profiles.stanford.edu/242780), told Reuters by phone that Classen’s claims were “overreaching to say the least,” noting that neither TDP-43 nor FUS, the two proteins he discusses, are associated with Alzheimer’s disease.”

“Dr Brian Appleby, a neurologist at the Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine who specializes in both prion disease and Alzheimer’s (here), told Reuters by phone that there is no evidence mRNA vaccines cause neurodegenerative diseases, and that the journal article in question uses the term prion disease “quite loosely” to refer to other protein misfolding disorders.”


https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-no-evidence-that-pfizers-covi-idUSL1N2MZ382

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 08:01:38 AM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about:

Quote from: Reuters
When reached for comment via email, Classen told Reuters: “You should leave the scientific criticism to scientists” (which Reuters has done throughout this article) and that Reuters was “not qualified to criticize my work.”

The author of the Reuters article is simply unqualified. They even dumbly put the quote that they are unqualified into their own article. If they are unqualified to give an opinion they are also unqualified to correctly interpret and address a qualified one.

The paper Classen wrote only introduces potential issues for further study, and calls it a "potential risk". He says that it "may" cause harm. He does not claim that he proved that the vaccine causes ALS; and any criticism on the matter of what the paper does not provide evidence for is only pertinent in that further study is needed, as recommended by the author himself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2021, 08:23:40 AM
It takes a special kind of stupid to pick on the reporter while ignoring the quotes from scientists delivering their qualified opinions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
It takes a special kind of stupid to pick on the reporter while ignoring the quotes from scientists delivering their qualified opinions.

The reporter is unqualified to report on this, and is liberally biased (See: Reuters). He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

The scientists most likely didn't just give a single sentence and then disappear, firstly. Reuters doesn't give the full conversation. Deceitful.

The selected quotes say that the author didn't prove that the vaccine caused ALS. The author didn't claim that at all, however. He said that there were some things which gave a potential for future issues. Reuters found a sentence that sounded bad and cited it and claimed that the author has been debunked.

Regardless, experts disagreeing with each other wouldn't prove anything, would mean only that there are experts who disagree with each other, and the situation would still suggest that there may be a risk in taking the vaccine.

It is well admitted that there is risk with this vaccine:

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/could-an-mrna-vaccine-be-dangerous-in-the-long-term-649253

“There is a race to get the public vaccinated, so we are willing to take more risks,” Tal Brosh, head of the Infectious Disease Unit at Samson Assuta Ashdod Hospital, told The Jerusalem Post.

When Moderna was just finishing its Phase I trial, The Independent wrote about the vaccine and described it this way: “It uses a sequence of genetic RNA material produced in a lab that, when injected into your body, must invade your cells and hijack your cells’ protein-making machinery called ribosomes to produce the viral components that subsequently train your immune system to fight the virus.”

“In this case, Moderna’s mRNA-1273 is programmed to make your cells produce the coronavirus’ infamous coronavirus spike protein that gives the virus its crown-like appearance (corona is crown in Latin) for which it is named,” wrote The Independent.

Brosh said that this does not mean the vaccine changes people’s genetic code. Rather, he said it is more like a USB device (the mRNA) that is inserted into a computer (your body). It does not impact the hard drive of the computer but runs a certain program.

But he acknowledged that there are unique and unknown risks to messenger RNA vaccines, including local and systemic inflammatory responses that could lead to autoimmune conditions.

An article published by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a division of the National Institutes of Health, said other risks include the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression; possible development of auto-reactive antibodies; and toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components.

~

“We will have a safety profile for only a certain number of months, so if there is a long-term effect after two years, we cannot know,” Brosh said
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 09:06:46 AM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about:

Quote from: Reuters
When reached for comment via email, Classen told Reuters: “You should leave the scientific criticism to scientists” (which Reuters has done throughout this article) and that Reuters was “not qualified to criticize my work.”

The author of the Reuters article is simply unqualified. They even dumbly put the quote that they are unqualified into their own article. If they are unqualified to give an opinion they are also unqualified to correctly interpret and address a qualified one.

I don't see how they "dumbly put a quote that they are unqualified". They asked the good Doctor for his response and they reported his response. Would you prefer they didn't ask the good Dr, or that they don't report what he had to say? And actually, you have no idea what the reporter(s) qualifications are, do you?

Are the other folks cited in the article unqualified as well? Specifically, Dr Albert Hofman, a clinical epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Dr Irina Skylar-Scott, a neurologist at Stanford Hospitals and Clinics who specializes in Alzheimer’s and other disorders of cognition and behavior, & Dr Brian Appleby, a neurologist at the Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine who specializes in both prion disease and Alzheimer’s - Are they not "qualified"?

As for your other concern regarding unqualified sources, as you put it, "...you opt to quote anonymous Wikipedia articles...", are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia references from the tfes wiki?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 09:23:42 AM
Quote
I don't see how they "dumbly put a quote that they are unqualified". They asked the good Doctor for his response and they reported his response. Would you prefer they didn't ask the good Dr, or that they don't report what he had to say?

Reuters duplicitously did not cite or provide the conversations in whole, so who knows what they really said?

They probably didn't just say that the vaccine was risk-free in the full conversation. They most likely gave their criticism that he didn't prove enough and agreed with or otherwise submitted to the fact that there is risk to the vaccine, like many other doctors state.

https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2020/12/what-worries-this-physician-about-the-covid-19-vaccine.html

DALIA SAHA, MD

"The rushed nature of the clinical trials casts more uncertainty rather than assuaging it. Pfizer requested emergency use authorization from the FDA, which has given its approval for the vaccine administration. Health care workers take care of sick patients, so it is certainly imperative for them to be in the best health possible, but concerns about the vaccines’ safety are not unwarranted. Also, the long term effects of these are impossible to know for years to come. These issues could potentially replicate the problem, turning those aiding the sick into patients themselves. 

mRNA vaccines are relatively new, and there are many variables to contend with. Other downstream effects from using new technology for the virus and the uncertainty revolving around that definitely is a cause for concern. Because of the limited clinical data, there are no long-term studies to demonstrate effects down the road. Other concerns include inflammation and autoimmune reactions, which can be serious adverse effects from the vaccine. The mRNA vaccines are dependent upon reactogenicity, which are the body’s transient but intense side effects after administering the vaccine. These are supposedly not long-term issues; however, they’re quite severe, especially after the second dose of the vaccine series proposed for the mRNA vaccines for COVID-19."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 09:50:22 AM
Quote
I don't see how they "dumbly put a quote that they are unqualified". They asked the good Doctor for his response and they reported his response. Would you prefer they didn't ask the good Dr, or that they don't report what he had to say?

Reuters duplicitously did not cite or provide the conversations in whole, so who knows what they really said?

They probably didn't just say that the vaccine was risk-free in the full conversation. They most likely gave their criticism that he didn't prove enough and agreed with or otherwise submitted to the fact that there is risk to the vaccine, like many other doctors state.

Wow, for someone complaining that they didn’t publish the entire conversation with each highly qualified expert they cited, you sure have asserted that they “probably” said this and “most likely” said that.

Do you often make up what other people said without knowing what they said?

And you still haven’t answered the question - Since you’ve deemed Wikipedia as an unworthy source, when are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia citation references and quotes from the tfes wiki?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 09:59:02 AM
Wow, for someone complaining that they didn’t publish the entire conversation with each highly qualified expert they cited, you sure have asserted that they “probably” said this and “most likely” said that.

Do you often make up what other people said without knowing what they said?

Seeing that they generally agree that there is risk, and that virtually none of them would say that there is zero risk or "risk-free", that is safe to assume. Feel free to find us one willing to say that it is risk-free. At best you will find them saying that it is low risk, in contrast to the ones above saying that it is impossible to know.

I see that you haven't even bothered to address the last two doctors, since you know that they do widely believe that there is risk.

Quote
And you still haven’t answered the question - Since you’ve deemed Wikipedia as an unworthy source, when are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia citation references and quotes from the tfes wiki?

No. Wikipedia has a purpose of providing low value and low quality basic general information on a subject, and is free to be scrutinized. It successfully provides a litmus on the groupthink, even if it does not provide a litmus on truth, making it a useful reference.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 10:21:59 AM
Wow, for someone complaining that they didn’t publish the entire conversation with each highly qualified expert they cited, you sure have asserted that they “probably” said this and “most likely” said that.

Do you often make up what other people said without knowing what they said?

Seeing that they generally agree that there is risk, and that virtually none of them would say that there is zero risk or "risk-free", that is safe to assume. Feel free to find us one willing to say that it is risk-free. At best you will find them saying that it is low risk, in contrast to the ones above saying that it is impossible to know.

I see that you haven't even addresses the above doctors, since you know that they do widely believe that there is risk.

Oh, so all your Dr Classen was saying in his article titled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease”, was just about general risk of a vaccine. That’s all, that there’s some risk involved? That’s simply his message, nothing more, nothing less? That drugs have some risks? Like no one ever knew that there could be a risk with a drug? Enlightening.
And even though Prion experts are calling bullshit on Classens claims, that really doesn’t matter because he’s just saying, “Hey, drugs can have risks…you know, risks…” Ok, thanks to you and Dr Classen for pointing out that there may be some risks with drugs. No one was apparently aware of that until now.


Quote
And you still haven’t answered the question - Since you’ve deemed Wikipedia as an unworthy source, when are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia citation references and quotes from the tfes wiki?

No. Wikipedia has a purpose of providing basic low quality general information on a subject, and is free to be scrutinized.

So the tfes wiki is lousy with “basic low quality general information”? Good to know. I’ll let folks know whenever you refer someone to your wiki that they should beware of the basic low quality general info that you have wholesale deemed unworthy due to its anonymity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
It takes a special kind of stupid to pick on the reporter while ignoring the quotes from scientists delivering their qualified opinions.

The reporter is unqualified to report on this, and is liberally biased (See: Reuters). He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

You are less qualified and more biased. I look forward to not seeing any more comments from you.

Quote
The scientists most likely didn't just give a single sentence and then disappear, firstly. Reuters doesn't give the full conversation. Deceitful.

You cherry pick all the time. I’m glad you now understand why you shouldn’t do it.

Quote
The selected quotes say that the author didn't prove that the vaccine caused ALS. The author didn't claim that at all, however. He said that there were some things which gave a potential for future issues. Reuters found a sentence that sounded bad and cited it and claimed that the author has been debunked.

Nice conclusion. Doesn’t follow from the premises.

Quote
Regardless, experts disagreeing with each other wouldn't prove anything, would mean only that there are experts who disagree with each other, and the situation would still suggest that there may be a risk in taking the vaccine.

Now who is being disingenuous? (It’s you) No one ever has there is no risk from taking the vaccine. You haven’t being posting there alarmist, cherry picked, deceitful quotes in an unqualified manner to present the possibility of risk.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 13, 2021, 01:57:29 PM
You people are arguing over which experts are qualified.  Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, an actual doctor, I don't think any of you are doctors, graduated with a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Toledo, a real school, in 1980 and received a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree. So no one can say she's not qualified. She says people are being magnetized! So I'm going for it.

I used fake names to sign up for the free vaccine three times next week. Soon, my abilities will be unimaginable!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: stack
Oh, so all your Dr Classen was saying in his article titled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease”, was just about general risk of a vaccine. That’s all, that there’s some risk involved?

Well, it's right there in the title. Not every paper has to prove everything. Bringing up a concern is enough for a paper. I presented the document as evidence that some scientists are concerned about the risks. Pretty typical of your side to take that and move the goal post and demand that the author proves something out of the scope of the effort, building a strawman and 'debunking' something not stated (that the paper proves that the vaccine causes ALS).

Quote from: stack
So the tfes wiki is lousy with “basic low quality general information”? Good to know. I’ll let folks know whenever you refer someone to your wiki that they should beware of the basic low quality general info that you have wholesale deemed unworthy due to its anonymity.

I said low value, not no value. Quoting Wikipedia among other sources makes it harder for you to claim that the particular subject discussed is not a group consensus belief, as even your side of liberal internet RE neckbeards thinks that your position is wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 05:14:10 PM
Quote from: stack
Oh, so all your Dr Classen was saying in his article titled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease”, was just about general risk of a vaccine. That’s all, that there’s some risk involved?

Well, it's right there in the title. Not every paper has to prove everything. Bringing up a concern is enough for a paper. I presented the document as evidence that some scientists are concerned about the risks. Pretty typical of your side to take that and move the goal post and demand that the author proves something out of the scope of the effort, building a strawman and 'debunking' something not stated (that the paper proves that the vaccine causes ALS).

Quite the concern he has, closing with this:

"Approving a vaccine, utilizing novel RNA technology without extensive testing is extremely dangerous. The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection."

One of his concerns is that the vaccine could be a bioweapon? Really? Coulda, shoulda, woulda. What kind of credible Dr/Researcher throws around that kind of a notion based upon zero evidence? He's literally just pondering a thought and throwing it out there. Much like all of his "Vaccines cause type 1 diabetes" nonsense that has been kicked to the curb by many qualified experts in the field for years.

Of course he doesn't have to "prove everything". But his whole article is basically just spitballing, "Hey, maybe it's a bioweapon, maybe is causes Alzheimers, maybe even ALS...Who knows, but maybe..." And when someone is just chucking shit at a wall to see if it will stick, that's not really anything credible you can put forth as truth.

Quote from: stack
So the tfes wiki is lousy with “basic low quality general information”? Good to know. I’ll let folks know whenever you refer someone to your wiki that they should beware of the basic low quality general info that you have wholesale deemed unworthy due to its anonymity.

I said low value, not no value. Quoting Wikipedia among other sources makes it harder for you to claim that the particular subject discussed is not a group consensus belief, as even your 'side' of liberal internet RE neckbeards thinks that your position is wrong.

Actually, you wrote:

Wikipedia has a purpose of providing low value and low quality basic general information on a subject, and is free to be scrutinized. It successfully provides a litmus on the groupthink, even if it does not provide a litmus on truth, making it a useful reference.

You remarked disparagingly how I used Wikipedia as a source, yet your own wiki is littered with Wikipedia references. Why the hypocrisy?

And as for a litmus on groupthink, do you mean tfes wiki entries like this:

The Wikipedia article on Perturbation Theory (Archive) echoes the same:
"This general procedure is a widely used mathematical tool in advanced sciences and engineering: start with a simplified problem and gradually add corrections that make the formula that the corrected problem becomes a closer and closer match to the original formula.”


So would you consider the above not true, but still a useful reference? How is something that is not true a useful reference in this context?

Or this:

From the Wikipedia section on Special Perturbations in celestial mechanics (Archive):

You bolded: “...special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.”

Is the above just another useful reference of groupthink low quality info that is not true?

On the same tfes wiki page, you have a whole section plucked from a Wikipedia talk discussion from some anonymous poster. Is s/he “qualified”? You seem to selectively take issue with some anonymous Wikipedia entries, but not others. How do you which are ok and which are not?

Comparing VSOP to the Ptolemaic System
The following is left by an editor on VSOP's Wikipedia Talk Page (Archive):
followed by and entire paragraph copy and pasted.

Is this just another example of low value untrue groupthink?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 13, 2021, 05:50:53 PM
The reporter is unqualified to report on this...He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

how do you not see the irony of saying this right after doing the exact same thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 13, 2021, 06:01:56 PM
The reporter is unqualified to report on this...He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

how do you not see the irony of saying this right after doing the exact same thing.
'Rules for thee, not for me.'
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 06:37:11 PM
Quite the concern he has, closing with this:

"Approving a vaccine, utilizing novel RNA technology without extensive testing is extremely dangerous. The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection."

One of his concerns is that the vaccine could be a bioweapon? Really? Coulda, shoulda, woulda. What kind of credible Dr/Researcher throws around that kind of a notion based upon zero evidence?

It's looking more and more like U.S. health authorities may have funded the creation of the Covid-19 virus. If these people are making bioweapons, lying about it, and orchestrating mass lockdowns, I would be concerned about their vaccines to 'save us all' as well.

NY Post - Sen. Paul: Fauci emails prove he knew of Wuhan gain-of-function research (https://nypost.com/2021/06/03/fauci-emails-prove-he-knew-of-wuhan-research-sen-paul/)

“There’s a lot of evidence that he [Fauci] has a great deal of conflict of interest and that if it turns out this virus came from the Wuhan lab — which it looks like it did — that there’s a great deal of culpability and that he was a big supporter of the funding,” Paul said. “But he also was a big supporter, to this day, of saying, ‘We can trust the Chinese on this. We can trust the Chinese scientists,’ and I think that’s quite naïve and really should preclude him from the position that he’s in.”


WSJ - The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184)- "The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus"

"In gain-of-function research, a microbiologist can increase the lethality of a coronavirus enormously by splicing a special sequence into its genome at a prime location. Doing this leaves no trace of manipulation. But it alters the virus spike protein, rendering it easier for the virus to inject genetic material into the victim cell. Since 1992 there have been at least 11 separate experiments adding a special sequence to the same location. The end result has always been supercharged viruses."


WIO news - Fauci admits Wuhan lab received 'modest' funds from US amid calls for probe into Covid origins (https://www.wionews.com/world/fauci-admits-wuhan-lab-received-modest-funds-from-us-amid-calls-for-probe-into-covid-origins-387497)

Quote
And as for a litmus on groupthink, do you mean tfes wiki entries like this:

The Wikipedia article on Perturbation Theory (Archive) echoes the same:
"This general procedure is a widely used mathematical tool in advanced sciences and engineering: start with a simplified problem and gradually add corrections that make the formula that the corrected problem becomes a closer and closer match to the original formula.”


So would you consider the above not true, but still a useful reference? How is something that is not true a useful reference in this context?

Or this:

From the Wikipedia section on Special Perturbations in celestial mechanics (Archive):

You bolded: “...special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.”

Is the above just another useful reference of groupthink low quality info that is not true?

I said that the quality of Wikipedia was of low value and mainly represented the internet groupthink, not that the content was always "not true". I consider this more of an English comprehension issue on your part.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 07:36:43 PM
Quite the concern he has, closing with this:

"Approving a vaccine, utilizing novel RNA technology without extensive testing is extremely dangerous. The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection."

One of his concerns is that the vaccine could be a bioweapon? Really? Coulda, shoulda, woulda. What kind of credible Dr/Researcher throws around that kind of a notion based upon zero evidence?

It's looking more and more like U.S. health authorities may have funded the creation of the Covid-19 virus. If these people are making bioweapons, lying about it, and orchestrating mass lockdowns, I would be concerned about their vaccines to 'save us all' as well.

NY Post - Sen. Paul: Fauci emails prove he knew of Wuhan gain-of-function research (https://nypost.com/2021/06/03/fauci-emails-prove-he-knew-of-wuhan-research-sen-paul/)

I presume that we will get to the bottom of whether it was a lab thing or a nature thing. The jury is still out, as they say. In any case, how do we go from a possible accidental lab leak to Classen's "the vaccine could be a bioweapon"? Gain-of-function testing typically doesn't automatically mean, "Hey, we're making a novel virus that will require a novel vaccine that is actually going to be a bioweapon...So we get to lockdown and make sure people don't partake in our 80% consumer driven economy and then we'll kill them with our cool new bioweapon vaccine..." Yeah, that totally makes sense.

WSJ - The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184)- "The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus"

This is an "Opinion" piece, as noted at the top of the article. I prefer facts over opinions.


WIO news - Fauci admits Wuhan lab received 'modest' funds from US amid calls for probe into Covid origins (https://www.wionews.com/world/fauci-admits-wuhan-lab-received-modest-funds-from-us-amid-calls-for-probe-into-covid-origins-387497)

Did the money go to gain-of-function research?

Quote
And as for a litmus on groupthink, do you mean tfes wiki entries like this:

The Wikipedia article on Perturbation Theory (Archive) echoes the same:
"This general procedure is a widely used mathematical tool in advanced sciences and engineering: start with a simplified problem and gradually add corrections that make the formula that the corrected problem becomes a closer and closer match to the original formula.”


So would you consider the above not true, but still a useful reference? How is something that is not true a useful reference in this context?

Or this:

From the Wikipedia section on Special Perturbations in celestial mechanics (Archive):

You bolded: “...special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.”

Is the above just another useful reference of groupthink low quality info that is not true?

I said that the quality of Wikipedia was of low value, not that the content was always "not true". I consider this more of an English comprehension issue on your part.

So all of your tfes wiki references to Wikipedia are of low value? I never said they were all untrue. I was asking you, since you claim it doesn't matter if they are true or not, what is your deciding criteria to include Wikipedia references if they are of low quality and perhaps untrue? As you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 08:28:00 PM
I presume that we will get to the bottom of whether it was a lab thing or a nature thing. The jury is still out, as they say. In any case, how do we go from a possible accidental lab leak to Classen's "the vaccine could be a bioweapon"?

Simply, if COVID-19 was created in a lab then it means that someone wanted to deliberately create a highly contagious virus for some purpose.  Would you trust a group of people wanting to make a highly contagious virus to be implicitly good people? I wouldn't. Even if we don't know why they created it, that they would want to create it destroys all trust.

NIH was funding the lab. Why would the NIH fund a lab which was creating bioweapons? Merely an accident?

Sen. Paul says that Fauci's leaked emails show that he knew about the Gain-of-Function research at the Wuhan Lab. Fauci lying about that destroys trust. If we can't trust our highest health authorities, it means we can't trust them to do good with the vaccine either.

We can either trust them to do good, or not. And the level of involvement in this Coronavirus lab scandal destroys the trust.

Quote from: stack
This is an "Opinion" piece, as noted at the top of the article. I prefer facts over opinions.

An opinion of scientists consulting the WSJ, yes.

Quote from: stack
So all of your tfes wiki references to Wikipedia are of low value? I never said they were all untrue. I was asking you, since you claim it doesn't matter if they are true or not, what is your deciding criteria to include Wikipedia references if they are of low quality and perhaps untrue? As you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?

I told you why I quote it. Wikipedia is decent at showing the RE groupthink on a topic, and the groupthink on a subject in general. That matters in a way other than truth. RE and heliocentric proponents maintain their own resources, and that is one of them. If you are a RE and have a differing position to the specific Wikipedia topic quoted in the FE Wiki it means that your own side is against you and you are actually in the minority with a belief that RE science may not even support.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 13, 2021, 09:00:53 PM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about

What are the qualifications of the author of the TFES Wiki?
Are they qualified to write those pages or decipher the work of the people it quotes?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2021, 09:11:57 PM
Gain of function research isn’t implicitly for creating bio weapons. The stated goal of Fauci’s research was to mutate virus’ in order to find possible future dangers. The lab leak hypothesis is plausible but not necessarily nefarious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 09:13:47 PM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about

What are the qualifications of the author of the TFES Wiki?
Are they qualified to write those pages or decipher the work of the people it quotes?

It's a collection of quotes, explanations, and videos related to FE, collected and made by many FE'ers of no particular authority. I have added a lot of stuff to it, but I'm not actually the creator of the videos, UA Theory, EA Theory, models, many of the arguments, quotes, etc. You came here to discuss FE and talk to the FE'ers. You can either agree with it, argue about the interpretation, or leave. Since you have been having trouble significantly contradicting the articles I would suggest that it's time to graduate to the last option.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 13, 2021, 09:20:04 PM
Reuters duplicitously did not cite or provide the conversations in whole, so who knows what they really said?

Genuinely incredible that you posted this when selective quoting is your whole thing.
You often do it from articles which literally say the exact opposite of what you claim they say, but with selective quoting you deliberately misrepresent them.
The only question is whether you are being dishonest and hypocritical here or just trolling.

Quote
They probably didn't just say that the vaccine was risk-free in the full conversation. They most likely gave their criticism that he didn't prove enough and agreed with or otherwise submitted to the fact that there is risk to the vaccine, like many other doctors state.

Nothing is zero risk.
Do you drive? Are there are any car safety experts who will claim that is a zero risk activity? If so then they are lying. Of course there's a risk. So why do you do it? Because you believe the speed and convenience of getting where you want in car outweighs the low risk of dying or getting badly injured in a car wreck.

Almost everything in life carries an element of risk, the issue is how high is the risk? With vaccines - as with driving a car - the risk is pretty low. That is not an opinion, it's borne out by the data in both cases. The long term risks of vaccines are known as is the impact of them on diseases like measles.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 13, 2021, 09:24:38 PM
Since you are having trouble significantly contradicting the articles
I'm having no trouble at all with that. You are having trouble understanding the arguments, but I don't know what I can do about that.
Remember the 2 days you spent not being able to understand a simple experiment with a laser and a boat, all the while claiming it was me who didn't understand it...then the penny finally dropped, you realised I was right so you just called it fake and ran away.
Or the time you didn't understand crepuscular rays so I made a 3D model which showed exactly what was going on and shows you screenshots from the relevant angles...you ran away from that one too.
But I'm glad you agree you have no particular authority. that is some progress at least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 14, 2021, 05:00:04 AM
I presume that we will get to the bottom of whether it was a lab thing or a nature thing. The jury is still out, as they say. In any case, how do we go from a possible accidental lab leak to Classen's "the vaccine could be a bioweapon"?

Simply, if COVID-19 was created in a lab then it means that someone wanted to deliberately create a highly contagious virus for some purpose.  Would you trust a group of people wanting to make a highly contagious virus as implicitly good people? I wouldn't. Even if we don't know why they created it, that they would want to create it destroys all trust.

NIH was funding the lab. Why would the NIH fund a lab which was creating bioweapons? Merely an accident?

Is this your personal qualified expert virology analysis that altering a virus or other bio chemical pathogen to see what therapies or vaccines need to be created to combat a potential eventuality of a pandemic? That all research in this space, with this methodology, is carried out by untrustful people?

It is risky, for sure. And apparently quite controversial because of the safety concerns. Hence the Obama administration put a pause on US gain-of-function research back in 2014 until our research bodies could figure out exactly how to handle it.

And if it's found that covid was a product of gain-of-function research and accidentally escaped the Wuhan lab, then, well, that will probably put a nail in the coffin for GofF research. And maybe that's the right answer. I have no idea as I am not qualified to make that judgment call. Just as you are not.

As for funding the lab, GofF research wasn't the only thing going on in the lab. But again, we'll find out just how complicit the US was if in fact it was a virus that got out of the lab. We just don't know at the moment.

Lastly, the bioweapon bit is really neither here nor there. And your Dr Classen's bit about the vaccine being a bioweapon is just stupid. He might as well say the vaccine communicates with 5G towers, magnetizes you, and fills you with nano-bots. I mean seriously, what would be the benefit to any government, entity, whatever, to kill people with a vaccine? If the vaccine kills people and that's its intended purpose, who is going to be left to prop up the world consumer economy? Who is going to be around to buy shit at Walmart, Alibaba, and Amazon? Who's gonna be around to buy more drugs from big pharma? The vaccine as bioweapon is the dumbest thing I've heard.

Sen. Paul says that Fauci's leaked emails show that he knew about the Gain-of-Function research at the Wuhan Lab. Fauci lying about that destroys trust.

Do the emails show that? I think the real question is not whether Wuhan was doing GofF research as they can do whatever they want. The question is whether the US knowingly funded GofF research even though there was that Obama 2014 pause on it.  And obviously the biggest question is where did Covid come from, nature or lab accident? We don't know the answer to any of these questions at the moment. But I do understand it's fun to speculate. But before you start running around and calling people liars, you may want to gather the facts first.

If we can't trust our highest health authorities, it means we can't trust them to do good with the vaccine either.
We can either trust them to do good, or not. And the level of involvement in this Coronavirus lab scandal destroys the trust.

Again, who says people were not doing good and what's the evidence for that? What level of involvement? Again, what are the facts?

Quote from: stack
This is an "Opinion" piece, as noted at the top of the article. I prefer facts over opinions.

An opinion of scientists consulting the WSJ, yes.

Why is that different than the scientists and Drs that are consulted for other publications that say Classen's "research" is at a minimum, wanting?

Quote from: stack
So all of your tfes wiki references to Wikipedia are of low value? I never said they were all untrue. I was asking you, since you claim it doesn't matter if they are true or not, what is your deciding criteria to include Wikipedia references if they are of low quality and perhaps untrue? As you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?

I told you why I quote it. Wikipedia is decent at showing the RE groupthink on a topic, and the groupthink on a subject in general. That matters in a way other than truth. RE and heliocentric proponents maintain their own resources, and that is one of them. If you are a RE and have a differing position to the specific Wikipedia topic quoted in the FE Wiki it means that your own side is against you and you are actually in the minority with a belief that RE science may not even support.

You cherry pick a lot of Wikipedia references in support of FE groupthink, not as representative of RE groupthink. Again, as you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article which spoke to Dr Classen's anti-vax stance and dubious research and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: nthurd on June 15, 2021, 06:38:24 AM
The truth lies somewhere between "vaccine is bio weapon" and "safer than water".

If someone has 3 hours to spare I suggest this podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_NNTVJzqtY&t=4s
Bret Weinstein, Dr. Robert Malone (inventor of mRNA Vaccine technology), Mr. Steve Kirsch.

In short, what I got from it is:
mRNA covid vaccines are a new technology with unknown risks. So far they shown to be working in an unexpected manner (showing up in the body where they were not supposed to, spike protein being a problem in itself). Information about problems (deaths, complications) and alternatives (existing, long used drugs) is being suppressed to some degree.

The motive for suppression is institutional greed and mutual benefit networks (one can make money on a new vaccine vs. lower profits on market of out-of-patent drugs).

The good news is that supposedly some peer-revived papers are going to be published. So "the truth" is delayed but it will come out eventually. Similarly to "lab leak hypothesis" which went from "only morons are this stupid" to "it is possible" in mainstream.

Bad news is that some assholes will get very rich by exploiting the situation to detriment of humanity. But it is the case pretty much always.

As I went through covid without big drama in the spring, I do not have to travel or meet strangers, am not too old and plan to leave couple more decades I am not going to get vaccinated with mRNA type. But I am going to check out if it is possible to get vaccinated with "traditional-type" to immunized for next flu season.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 15, 2021, 07:09:15 AM
The AZ one is the more traditional type of vaccine - I had that one (not be choice particularly, that's just what they gave me)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2021, 06:27:38 PM
Another doctor criticizes the vaccine: The inventor of the mRNA vaccines - https://truthbasedmedia.com/2021/06/21/google-keeps-suppressing-the-shocking-interview-of-dr-robert-malone-inventor-of-mrna-vaccines-here-it-is/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 21, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
total suppression

(https://i.imgur.com/qb6TNnp.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Fortuna on June 21, 2021, 06:48:57 PM
I’m still on the fence about getting it. I’m waiting for more research to be done on a particular side effect. I also still wear a mask in public places, even though it’s no longer required where I live. While I don’t want to get vaccinated yet, allowing the virus to propagate doesn’t seem great either.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on June 26, 2021, 11:15:20 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 26, 2021, 11:18:10 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!
The Pfizer jab makes your poo glow in the dark.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 26, 2021, 12:51:46 PM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!

Dont listen to Thork. Your poos will be glorious, but your arm gonna hurt. I get my 2nd pfizer poke today... really hoping my magneto powers will come through.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on June 26, 2021, 03:35:32 PM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!

Dont listen to Thork. Your poos will be glorious, but your arm gonna hurt. I get my 2nd pfizer poke today... really hoping my magneto powers will come through.

Should have waited bro! The newest vaccines make you Bluetooth enabled!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 26, 2021, 04:54:02 PM
Ah, piss. Missed opportunity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Gayer on July 04, 2021, 09:16:24 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!
The Pfizer jab makes your poo glow in the dark.

That's true, I use my poo as a nightlight now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 06, 2021, 06:50:04 PM
Totally Trustworthy

(https://i.imgur.com/RyyLeq6.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 06, 2021, 10:22:02 PM
I guess this means people should maybe reconsider going with the Pfizer vaccine and go with J&J, Moderna, or AstraZeneca instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 07, 2021, 06:03:28 AM
I guess this means people should maybe reconsider going with the Pfizer vaccine and go with J&J, Moderna, or AstraZeneca instead.
Maybe, although all these vaccines have to go through independent trials before they’re approved. We don’t just have to take their word for it. And it’s now been rolled out to I guess hundreds of millions of people. In a population that size you are going to get some people who have reactions. People with a certain agenda will then cherry pick those cases to try and make a case which doesn’t stand up statistically
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 07, 2021, 06:58:42 AM
I guess this means people should maybe reconsider going with the Pfizer vaccine and go with J&J, Moderna, or AstraZeneca instead.
Maybe, although all these vaccines have to go through independent trials before they’re approved. We don’t just have to take their word for it. And it’s now been rolled out to I guess hundreds of millions of people. In a population that size you are going to get some people who have reactions. People with a certain agenda will then cherry pick those cases to try and make a case which doesn’t stand up statistically

Agreed. I guess I'm not really sure what Tom's point is. I took it as "vax bad" as I am not in the "vax bad" camp. I was pointing out (not so well) that if one has a problem with Pfizer's history, it doesn't wipe out all of the other vax's.

Not to mention the case he brought up, though terrible, requires some nuance to understand as opposed to just a lively twitter quote. They got busted for continually providing incentives to Dr's to prescribe their meds, golf trips, vaca's of other sorts, etc. Incentives, a no no. And they had a history of doing that. For two, they were promoting some of their drugs for uses that were not FDA approved. They are allowed to "suggest" alternative uses for their drugs, but not "promote" them. So yeah, terrible big-pharma behaviour. So the devil is in the details not in a cherry-picked twitter burst.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 04:43:00 PM
Starting tomorrow, Malta will be the first country in the EU to close its borders to anyone not fully vaccinated (source (https://www.nu.nl/288125/video/malta-eist-prik-volgen-meer-landen-en-komt-je-vakantie-in-gevaar.html) in Dutch). I wonder how many more will follow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 13, 2021, 04:50:26 PM
Though not an EU nation, Iceland has already done the same, right? I think it makes a lot of sense for island nations, where they can maintain a strong control over access points.

I see that being a huge challenge for many of the EU states with multiple border crossings. Definitely an interesting development though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:04:08 PM
Though not an EU nation, Iceland has already done the same, right? I think it makes a lot of sense for island nations, where they can maintain a strong control over access points.
I was unfamiliar with the case of Iceland, but it seems that there are some exemptions (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2021/07/05/iceland-welcomes-vaccinated-travelers-lifts-covid-restrictions/) for citizens of certain countries with negative test results. Malta is going a step further and requiring vaccinations for everyone.

I see that being a huge challenge for many of the EU states with multiple border crossings. Definitely an interesting development though.
The EU Digital COVID Certificate (https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en) may make this easier to check, but we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Personally, I'm all in favour of this now that the vaccine is broadly available to everyone. For the vast majority of people, there will be no excuse not to be fully vaccinated in another couple of months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 13, 2021, 05:20:22 PM
I'm a bit uneasy about this. I do think people should get vaccinated but there are some people who can't be and making it so that people can't travel or get certain jobs without being vaccinated...
It's a dangerous precedent
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:23:11 PM
I'm a bit uneasy about this. I do think people should get vaccinated but there are some people who can't be and making it so that people can't travel or get certain jobs without being vaccinated...
It's a dangerous precedent
People who can't be vaccinated are exactly the people rules like this are protecting. If they can't be vaccinated themselves, we should be doing everything we can to protect them with herd immunity.

Once we have sufficient herd immunity built up, these restrictions should obviously be eased, but I firmly believe they are necessary for the coming months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/shock-report-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-last-week-us-covid-19-deaths/

Quote
SHOCK REPORT: There Were More COVID-19 Vaccine Deaths Last Week in US than COVID-19 Deaths

There are now 9,125 reported deaths from the COVID-19 vaccinations across the United States this year.

(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/deaths-covid-vaccine.jpg)

The number of deaths linked to vaccines this year has absolutely skyrocketed. According to the CDC’s own data, in 2021 n the first 3 months, the VAERS website recorded over 1,750 deaths due to vaccines in the US.

Last week they were reporting 6,985 deaths, and this week that number jumped up 2,043 to 9,048.

That number is now at 9,195

“The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone and can be submitted electronically at www.vaers.hhs.gov.”

There have been 411,931 adverse reactions reported to the vaccine.

Also, last week there were 1,505 COVID-19 deaths in the United States.

That means there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:37:37 PM
By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus
No, Tom. Read your own source again. Carefully this time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 13, 2021, 05:43:15 PM
By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus
No, Tom. Read your own source again. Carefully this time.
What does this mean?

"there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:45:47 PM
What does this mean?

"there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week."
It means that the person who wrote that sentence has understood the numbers about as well as Tom has.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 05:51:31 PM
What does this mean?

"there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week."
It means that the person who wrote that sentence has understood the numbers about as well as Tom has.

What is there to understand about the numbers?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:56:50 PM
What is there to understand about the numbers?
Even assuming this obviously biased source is accurately reporting the numbers (which I haven't verified one way or another), you are comparing a number for the year to date with a number for last week. It is invalid to assume that an increase in a reported figure from one week to the next constitutes the number of deaths in that week. There are any number of possible reasons why the reporting of deaths could have been delayed from previous weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 06:12:10 PM
What is there to understand about the numbers?
Even assuming this obviously biased source is accurately reporting the numbers (which I haven't verified one way or another), you are comparing a number for the year to date with a number for last week.

It's not though. It's comparing these two numbers:

Quote
Last week they were reporting 6,985 deaths, and this week that number jumped up 2,043 to 9,048.

~

Also, last week there were 1,505 COVID-19 deaths in the United States.

Quote from: xasop
It is invalid to assume that an increase in a reported figure from one week to the next constitutes the number of deaths in that week. There are any number of possible reasons why the reporting of deaths could have been delayed from previous weeks.

Another possible reason is that the vaccine caused more deaths than the Coronavirus. Such data is certainly worth reporting and alerting us about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 06:32:55 PM
Another possible reason is that the vaccine caused more deaths than the Coronavirus. Such data is certainly worth reporting and alerting us about.
Just about anything is "possible". It's not worth spreading disinformation about our best chance at beating the pandemic just because the numbers you want aren't available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 13, 2021, 07:07:28 PM
What is there to understand about the numbers?

Perhaps this related to VAERS reporting.(The numbers listed are as of July 6.  No idea what the date of your numbers is.)

Quote
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause.Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.

According to the CDC the US age related death rate in 2019 was 715.2 per 100,000 us population.  That would mean one could expect 357.5 deaths per 100,000 in a six month period. If you figure 2 doses per person then we're looking at 115 people million which would equate to 411,125 expected deaths pre-covid vaccine.  So, we have 9048 vaccine deaths vs. 411,125 expected deaths.  This means that getting the vaccine puts you at 2.2% the risk of death vs. not having a vaccine if you'd like to really understand your numbers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 13, 2021, 07:39:23 PM
“The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyoneand can be submitted electronically

lol. Compelling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
The COVID-19 deaths are also reported even if it's unclear if COVID-19 was the cause. In fact, the people dying of it are the elderly and people with serious chronic conditions. No one is separating out how much of their death was due to their Cancer.

Quote
Just about anything is "possible". It's not worth spreading disinformation about our best chance at beating the pandemic just because the numbers you want aren't available.

Why does the pandemic need to be beat? The elderly and people with serious chronic diseases are also likely to be killed by a range of diseases. That's what happens when you get old or sick. You die.

If the vaccine is helpful, it should at best be taken by those groups that are at risk of dying of the disease; not healthy adults and children. There is no reason to perform mRNA gene experiments on the healthy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 08:19:54 PM
Starting tomorrow, Malta will be the first country in the EU to close its borders to anyone not fully vaccinated (source (https://www.nu.nl/288125/video/malta-eist-prik-volgen-meer-landen-en-komt-je-vakantie-in-gevaar.html) in Dutch). I wonder how many more will follow.
They have already gone back on that (https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6145404/malta-komt-terug-op-weren-niet-gevaccineerden-en-stelt-quarantaineplicht-in.html). They're now just going to quarantine anyone who isn't fully vaccinated instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 13, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
The COVID-19 deaths are also reported even if it's unclear if COVID-19 was the cause. In fact, the people dying of it are the elderly and people with serious chronic conditions. No one is separating out how much of their death was due to their Cancer.

That's fairly accurate. But the thing I've been looking at in the UK is all cause mortality, there were two big spikes above the average during the two waves of the virus. That tells me that there's something going on which isn't typical.
Overall the CFR (Case Fatality Rate) from Covid is around 1%. Greatly skewed towards older people, granted, but I was talking to a doctor recently who works in intensive care and he was telling me that over the last winter many of the people in hospital with Covid were in their 40s and 50s. So younger people can still get very ill.

It's been quoted above, but according to the CDC:

Quote
More than 334 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 12, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,079 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

And VAERS is a website where literally anyone can report an Adverse Event.
And of course significantly more people have been vaccinated than have ever caught Covid.

So...I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
Quote
That's fairly accurate. But the thing I've been looking at in the UK is all cause mortality, there were two big spikes above the average during the two waves of the virus. That tells me that there's something going on which isn't typical.
Overall the CFR (Case Fatality Rate) from Covid is around 1%. Greatly skewed towards older people, granted, but I was talking to a doctor recently who works in intensive care and he was telling me that over the last winter many of the people in hospital with Covid were in their 40s and 50s. So younger people can still get very ill.

The people in their 40's and 50's had a chronic illness like cancer. It is fairly established that the people dying are either elderly or they had a serious pre-existing issue. There are plenty of articles on that. That those numbers are people in their 40's and 50's tells the story all by itself. Not many children and teenagers and 20-somethings dying of this disease. They are far less likely to have a chronic health condition than someone in their 40's or 50's.

Quote
And VAERS is a website where literally anyone can report an Adverse Event.
And of course significantly more people have been vaccinated than have ever caught Covid.

So...I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.

Actually VAERS is a website where you need to provide detailed personal information to submit a report, where doctors are required by law to report the adverse effects to the vaccines to VAERS, and where submitting a false report is highly illegal.

It says so right on the website:

https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

"Knowingly filing a false VAERS report is a violation of Federal law (18 U.S. Code § 1001) punishable by fine and imprisonment."

The CDC has removed false reports in the past.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/05/09/fact-check-no-evidence-2-year-old-died-covid-vaccine/4971367001/

Quote
The CDC said the report was removed from the VAERS database for being "completely made up."

They remove reports. So they are policing it. On the other side, a hospital could equally falsely report a death to Covid when it is clearly something else, for the Covid funding.

It's also the ONLY centralized government-reporting mechanism in the US on adverse vaccine effects, which is a significant point. The simple fact is that VAERS is the only government service reporting on adverse vaccine effects and this government service is telling us that last week more people have died of the vaccine that of the Coronavirus.

The special pleading here of "it coulda' been a bunch of scammers making false reports" (paraphrased) is irrelevant to the fact that the government is giving us data with its only reporting system telling us that a significant number of people have died to this vaccine, which would be the utmost irresponsible to ignore.

Instead, you guys should be calling for investigation, like the CDC investigated the one in the link above.

But no, I see comments that it should be ignored because it is "not worth spreading disinformation". Lets ignore it. That's exactly the sentiment given. Yeah right. It is irresponsible to ignore the only US Government reporting mechanism on the vaccine. It is blatant and clear that these statements are made because it hurts the feelings and pre-determined beliefs on the matter.

If a government reporting system, of the only one to exist in the country, was suggesting that a bunch of people were dying to a drug that you weren't emotionally invested in, you guys would be concerned about that. But because there are some dogmatic beliefs going on, it's not too concerning in this case. A bunch of dogma and faith-based reasoning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 14, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
The people in their 40's and 50's had a chronic illness like cancer. It is fairly established that the people dying are either elderly or they had a serious pre-existing issue. There are plenty of articles on that. That those numbers are people in their 40's and 50's tells the story all by itself. Not many healthy children and teenagers and 20-somethings dying of this disease. They are far less likely to have a chronic health condition than someone in their 40's or 50's.

I don't know about the people in their 40s and 50s, but you're basically correct in that for young, healthy people this disease is not generally that dangerous. But the pandemic has had a big impact on deaths and stretched health services in multiple countries. It's not a fuss about nothing.

Quote
Actually VAERS is a website where you need to provide detailed personal information to submit a report, where doctors are required by law to report the adverse effects to the vaccines to VAERS, and where submitting a false report is highly illegal.

I'm not saying that people are reporting falsely - some may be, and you've cited an example where someone did.
But the point is anyone can report an incident. This it not official government data. These were reported in the last week.
No-one has investigated all these cases and officially found a causal link between these deaths and the vaccine.
And, again, a lot more people have had the vaccine in the last few months than have had Covid. So even if all these deaths genuinely are related to the vaccine (and I have explained why that is not a valid assumption) it would still be statistically tiny number compared with your chances of dying from Covid.

Quote
its only reporting system telling us that a significant number of people have died to this vaccine, which would be the utmost irresponsible to ignore.
Agreed. And it isn't being ignored. The whole point of VAERS is so these things can be investigated and it can continue to ensure vaccines are administered safely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 05:17:47 PM
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
I don't know about the people in their 40s and 50s, but you're basically correct in that for young, healthy people this disease is not generally that dangerous. But the pandemic has had a big impact on deaths and stretched health services in multiple countries. It's not a fuss about nothing.

Look at how many elderly and sickly people died of the flu in past years. The number is quite high. People who are old or sick die. It's just a fact of life.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
And, again, a lot more people have had the vaccine in the last few months than have had Covid. So even if all these deaths genuinely are related to the vaccine (and I have explained why that is not a valid assumption) it would still be statistically tiny number compared with your chances of dying from Covid.

If the mass-vaccination campaigns are starting to cause more deaths on a weekly basis than Covid then that should be concerning.

At least with Covid we have a general knowledge from past human-virus interaction over the millennia that viral illness is generally temporary and swiftly defeated by the immune system. We don't really know what these vaccines are going to start doing in the future.

In this case you are trying to convince me that it's a good idea to do experiments on me and reprogram my mRNA to produce things in my body for the rest of my life without the long term testing to prove that its safe. Abhorrent.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Agreed. And it isn't being ignored.

I saw some arguments here about wanting to ignore it - "Just about anything is 'possible'. It's not worth spreading disinformation about our best chance at beating the pandemic just because the numbers you want aren't available."

That seems to be saying that it might be disinformation, so we should extinguish discussion about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 14, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
If the mass-vaccination campaigns are starting to cause more deaths on a weekly basis than Covid then that should be concerning.

Depending on the mortality rate, yes.  It appears the rate is at least an order of magnitude lower than the virus itself with tremendous upside.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 14, 2021, 06:12:44 PM
Look at how many elderly and sickly people died of the flu in past years. The number is quite high. People who are old or sick die. It's just a fact of life.
Well sure. But as I said the all cause mortality in 2020 is significantly higher than the average, I suspect the same will be true in 2021 as a lot of the deaths in the UK were this year.

Quote
If the mass-vaccination campaigns are starting to cause more deaths on a weekly basis than Covid then that should be concerning.
Well sure. But that is a very big if. And it is extremely unlikely to be the case. You are comparing Covid deaths which are certified by medical professionals with VEARS reports, an open system where literally anyone can file a report and no casual link has been established.

Quote
At least with Covid we have a general knowledge from past human-virus interaction over the millennia that viral illness is generally temporary and swiftly defeated by the immune system.

You’ll have to tell that to the Spanish flu which killed 50 million people worldwide. There were 4 waves in that pandemic. Covid isn’t going to kill that many people, I imagine in part because we are a century later and medicine is a lot better now. Plus they managed to develop a vaccine which hopefully will mitigate the risk of further waves.

Quote
We don't really know what these vaccines are going to start doing in the future.
We have over a century of data on vaccines. They have all but eliminated certain diseases and been part of a massive rise in life expectancy. So we do know.
The RNA vaccines do the same thing as the traditional ones, they just work is a different  way.

Quote
I saw some arguments here about wanting to ignore it
So? The VAERS reports done come through to people on here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 06:51:12 PM
Look at how many elderly and sickly people died of the flu in past years. The number is quite high. People who are old or sick die. It's just a fact of life.
Well sure. But as I said the all cause mortality in 2020 is significantly higher than the average, I suspect the same will be true in 2021 as a lot of the deaths in the UK were this year.

The flu cases were way down in 2020-2021 flu season, leading some to believe that the statistics are being manipulated or the Covid tests are cross-testing with existing diseases.

(https://i.imgur.com/5DaXiCK.jpg)

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Well sure. But that is a very big if. And it is extremely unlikely to be the case. You are comparing Covid deaths which are certified by medical professionals with VEARS reports, an open system where literally anyone can file a report and no casual link has been established.

Doctors are required to report to VAERS. It's the only system they report to on Vaccine effects.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html

"Healthcare providers are required to report certain adverse events following COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS."

If your argument is that the reports may be coming from the general public making incorrect reports , that information is available for further investigation. Someone claiming that their family member died after taking the vaccine is also concerning. The reports should definitely not be ignored.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
We have over a century of data on vaccines. They have all but eliminated certain diseases and been part of a massive rise in life expectancy. So we do know.
The RNA vaccines do the same thing as the traditional ones, they just work is a different  way

None of the other vaccines cause your body to continuously produce a substance for the rest of your life. That needs to be tested.

The other ones work by training your body to recognize the disease as a one time deal. Maybe that's safe. But this one works differently.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
So? The VAERS reports done come through to people on here.

What do you mean so? If there are people out there who want to police discussions and ignore or shut down discussion on a government reporting system which suggests that the vaccine may be hurting people it's wrong.

Twitter and YouTube have gone hog-wild on censoring all discussion related to things that are negative to the vaccines recently. Some people can't handle opposing opinions. Probably why you have opted to end a number of your previous discussions with "You're trolling!" rather than any legitimate counterargument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 14, 2021, 07:14:58 PM
Flu cases for what region?

And why would anyone have expected cases to do anything other than plummet, with increased focus on ha d washing, social distancing, mask mandates,  working from home, kids doing school from home and complete lockdowns.

Of course flu numbers were going to plummet. But what is the source for the numbers fox showed on that graphic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 07:40:48 PM
The region is the USA. Another source:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/10/flu-cases-historically-low-during-covid-what-expect-fall/7088318002/

Quote
Public health and clinical laboratories reported 2,038 flu cases during the season from Sept. 27, 2020, to April 24, 2021, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency estimated about 38 million people were sick with the flu during the 2019-2020 season.

“It’s been an amazing year,” said Dr. John Swartzberg, a professor emeritus of infectious diseases at the University of California, Berkeley in the school of public health. “In all my years of being a flu watcher … I’ve never seen anything like this.”

The article also attributes the cause to "mask wearing," "social distancing" and "hand washing".

Quote
A year full of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing and staying at home to prevent coronavirus spread rendered the 2020-2021 influenza season practically nonexistent.

Assuming that people even did it right (they didn't, almost no one practices the proper hand washing hygiene when putting on and taking off masks that surgeons perform) why does that defeat the flu, but not Covid?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

(https://i.imgur.com/gx2jiLr.png)

Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 14, 2021, 07:57:04 PM
Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked during that same period, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

What's the point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't have had lockdowns, limited travel, mask mandates? That we shouldn't have a vaccine for Covid? That Covid is really just the annual flu? What exactly is it that you are suggesting?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 08:34:22 PM
Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked during that same period, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

What's the point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't have had lockdowns, limited travel, mask mandates? That we shouldn't have a vaccine for Covid? That Covid is really just the annual flu? What exactly is it that you are suggesting?

I just presented the data. You can make of it as you will.

But if you want my personal opinion on the matter I don't think Covid is even a real pandemic.

I'm more inclined to think that world powers are trying to hoodwink us for some reason. It might have something to do with the "Great Reset" where they want to use Covid and climate change to implement universal communism on society.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/528482-john-kerry-reveals-bidens-devotion-to-radical-great-reset-movement

Quote
The two justifications for the proposal, which has been aptly named by its supporters the “Great Reset,” are the COVID-19 pandemic (the short-term justification) and the so-called “climate crisis” caused by global warming (the long-term justification).

According to the Great Reset’s supporters, the plan would fundamentally transform much of society. As World Economic Forum (WEF) head Klaus Schwab wrote back in June, “the world must act jointly and swiftly to revamp all aspects of our societies and economies, from education to social contracts and working conditions. Every country, from the United States to China, must participate, and every industry, from oil and gas to tech, must be transformed. In short, we need a ‘Great Reset’ of capitalism.”

...

There has been some evidence suggesting that Biden and some of his biggest allies back the Great Reset and would attempt to impose it on the United States. But Biden and his team have never explicitly stated that America would be involved — that is, until now.

At a panel discussion about the Great Reset hosted by the World Economic Forum in mid-November, former Secretary of State John Kerry – Biden’s would-be special presidential envoy for climate – firmly declared that the Biden administration will support the Great Reset and that the Great Reset “will happen with greater speed and with greater intensity than a lot of people might imagine.”

When asked by panel host Borge Brende whether the World Economic Forum and other Great Reset supporters are “expecting too much too soon from the new president, or is he going to deliver first day on this [sic] topics?,” Kerry responded, “The answer to your question is, no, you’re not expecting too much.”

“And yes, it [the Great Reset] will happen,” Kerry continued. “And I think it will happen with greater speed and with greater intensity than a lot of people might imagine. In effect, the citizens of the United States have just done a Great Reset. We’ve done a Great Reset. And it was a record level of voting.”

Kerry later argued that the Great Reset is necessary to slow the “climate crisis” and that “I know Joe Biden believes … it’s not enough just to rejoin Paris [the Paris Climate Accords] for the United States. It’s not enough for us to just do the minimum of what Paris requires.”

Kerry also said that because of the Great Reset movement, he believes “we’re at the dawn of an extremely exciting time” and that “the greatest opportunity we have” to address social and economic problems is “dealing with the climate crisis.”

Yes, because we need to fundamentally change the nature of capitalism to defeat Covid and solve the climate crisis. What enlightened thinkers.  :o

You are going to own nothing and be happy, as stated in their promotional material:

(https://i.imgur.com/r5Vb85O.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 14, 2021, 08:41:12 PM
Buddhism says the same thing.  They are obviously IN ON ITTM
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 14, 2021, 08:47:17 PM
I'm more inclined to think that world powers are trying to hoodwink us for some reason. It might have something to do with the "Great Reset" where they want to use Covid and climate change to implement universal communism on society.

Don't threaten me with a good time!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2021, 12:16:38 AM
From Professor of Economics Dr. Antony P. Mueller at the Misses Institute:

https://mises.org/wire/no-privacy-no-property-world-2030-according-wef

Quote
No Privacy, No Property: The World in 2030 According to the WEF

Individual liberty is at risk again. What may lie ahead was projected in November 2016 when the WEF published “8 Predictions for the World in 2030.” According to the WEF’s scenario, the world will become quite a different place from now because how people work and live will undergo a profound change. The scenario for the world in 2030 is more than just a forecast. It is a plan whose implementation has accelerated drastically since with the announcement of a pandemic and the consequent lockdowns.

According to the projections of the WEF’s “Global Future Councils,” private property and privacy will be abolished during the next decade. The coming expropriation would go further than even the communist demand to abolish the property of production goods but leave space for private possessions. The WEF projection says that consumer goods, too, would be no longer private property.

~

In a promotional video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx3DhoLFO4s), the World Economic Forum summarizes the eight predictions in the following statements:

- People will own nothing. Goods are either free of charge or must be lent from the state.
- The United States will no longer be the leading superpower, but a handful of countries will dominate.
- Organs will not be transplanted but printed.
- Meat consumption will be minimized.
- Massive displacement of people will take place with billions of refugees.
- To limit the emission of carbon dioxide, a global price will be set at an exorbitant level.
- People can prepare to go to Mars and start a journey to find alien life.
- Western values will be tested to the breaking point..

~

Conclusion

The World Economic Forum and its related institutions in combination with a handful of governments and a few high-tech companies want to lead the world into a new era without property or privacy. Values like individualism, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are at stake, to be repudiated in favor of collectivism and the imposition of a “common good” that is defined by the self-proclaimed elite of technocrats. What is sold to the public as the promise of equality and ecological sustainability is in fact a brutal assault on human dignity and liberty. Instead of using the new technologies as an instrument of betterment, the Great Reset seeks to use the technological possibilities as a tool of enslavement. In this new world order, the state is the single owner of everything. It is left to our imagination to figure out who will program the algorithms that manage the distribution of the goods and services.

World leaders on board:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210131133110/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/01/29/davos-merkel-macron-coronavirus/

Quote
World leaders pledge a ‘great reset’ after the pandemic

Klaus Schwab, WEF’s founder and executive chairman, invoked the need to help provoke a “great reset” around the world in the wake of the pandemic. “The covid-19 crisis has shown us that our old systems are not fit anymore for the 21st century,” he said in a podcast ahead of events this week.

~

Faced with these grim conclusions, world leaders, at least rhetorically, rose to the occasion. French President Emmanuel Macron declared Tuesday that “we will get out of this pandemic only with an economy that thinks more about fighting inequalities.

~

“The capitalist model together with this open economy can no longer work in this environment,” said Macron.

Kristalina Georgieva, managing director of the International Monetary Fund — a global institution once synonymous with neoliberalism — said that “unless capitalism globally brings people closer together, we won’t be winners after this crisis.” She added that the pandemic had widened the gap between wealthy and poorer nations and that global cooperation on addressing a crisis that knew no borders was “not up to par.”

Those sentiments were echoed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who once more used her bully pulpit at Davos to decry nationalism and called attention to the new challenges posed by unequal vaccine distribution around the world. “Let’s not kid ourselves: The question of who gets which vaccine in the world will of course leave new wounds and new memories, because those who get such emergency help will remember that,” she said.

Treaudu on board too: Coronavirus: Trudeau tells UN conference that pandemic provided "opportunity for a reset" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2fp0Jeyjvw&ab_channel=GlobalNews)

Prince Charles was a big proponent, top execs:

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/504499-introducing-the-great-reset-world-leaders-radical-plan-to

Quote
Introducing the 'Great Reset,' world leaders' radical plan to transform the economy

~

Joining Schwab at the WEF event was Prince Charles, one of the primary proponents of the Great Reset; Gina Gopinath, the chief economist at the International Monetary Fund; António Guterres, the secretary-general of the United Nations; and CEOs and presidents of major international corporations, such as Microsoft and BP.

Activists from groups such as Greenpeace International and a variety of academics also attended the event or have expressed their support for the Great Reset.

Although many details about the Great Reset won’t be rolled out until the World Economic Forum meets in Davos in January 2021, the general principles of the plan are clear: The world needs massive new government programs and far-reaching policies comparable to those offered by American socialists such as Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) in their Green New Deal plan.

Or, put another way, we need a form of socialism — a word the World Economic Forum has deliberately avoided using, all while calling for countless socialist and progressive plans.

To defeat the Covid we are now getting rid of capitalism and transitioning to a socialist world where private property is abolished. How exciting everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEQcyIGH_vQ
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 15, 2021, 12:24:17 AM
Now that the "here's how Trump can still win" mantra has faded, 'the great reset' is what we'll get to hear all about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 15, 2021, 01:05:48 AM
In a promotional video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx3DhoLFO4s), the World Economic Forum summarizes the eight predictions in the following statements:

- People will own nothing. Goods are either free of charge or must be lent from the state.
- The United States will no longer be the leading superpower, but a handful of countries will dominate.
- Organs will not be transplanted but printed.
- Meat consumption will be minimized.
- Massive displacement of people will take place with billions of refugees.
- To limit the emission of carbon dioxide, a global price will be set at an exorbitant level.
- People can prepare to go to Mars and start a journey to find alien life.
- Western values will be tested to the breaking point..

Not to further a great reset discussion when it comes to Covid, but just as an aside, as Tom put it, "I just presented the data. You can make of it as you will."

Fact check: The World Economic Forum does not have a stated goal to have people own nothing by 2030

A video repeating misinformation about the World Economic Forum (WEF) has been shared widely on Facebook.

The WEF does not have a ‘stated goal’ to remove everyone’s private property by 2030. As addressed in previous Reuters fact checks, these claims likely originated from a WEF social media video from 2016 that stated eight predictions about the world in 2030, including: “You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy. What you want you’ll rent, and it’ll be delivered by drone.”

Danish politician Ida Auken, who wrote the prediction in question (here), said it was not a “utopia or dream of the future” but “a scenario showing where we could be heading - for better and for worse.”

In a written update, she clarified that the piece aimed to “start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 01:38:06 AM
Honestly, sounds great. Where do I sign? If I get more covid jabs can I make this happen faster?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on July 15, 2021, 01:39:29 AM
Not to further a great reset discussion when it comes to Covid, but just as an aside, as Tom put it, "I just presented the data. You can make of it as you will."

Fact check: The World Economic Forum does not have a stated goal to have people own nothing by 2030

A video repeating misinformation about the World Economic Forum (WEF) has been shared widely on Facebook.

The WEF does not have a ‘stated goal’ to remove everyone’s private property by 2030. As addressed in previous Reuters fact checks, these claims likely originated from a WEF social media video from 2016 that stated eight predictions about the world in 2030, including: “You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy. What you want you’ll rent, and it’ll be delivered by drone.”

Danish politician Ida Auken, who wrote the prediction in question (here), said it was not a “utopia or dream of the future” but “a scenario showing where we could be heading - for better and for worse.”

In a written update, she clarified that the piece aimed to “start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0

Adding on to that point, I'd argue that Auken's article, which you can read for yourself here (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/8-predictions-for-the-world-in-2030), isn't really a serious prediction for 2030 at all. It's more a piece of speculative fiction than anything else. Maybe in a hundred years time, the scenario it describes might be a real possibility, but certainly not in ten.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2021, 02:13:51 AM
The "debunk" admits that it's a video from the WEF, but suggests that it's unrelated to what the WEF actually wants. The WEF was asked about it and they said it was just what might happen "for better or worse". Wow, compelling. ::)

On its site the WEF is literally calling for wealth redistribution, reformation of capitalism, and government provided incomes:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/great-reset-must-place-social-justice-centre/

"Wealth needs to be more broadly redistributed"

"Governments will need to intervene more to ensure better and fairer outcomes from private sector investments"

"Capitalism as we know it needs to be reformed"

"Capitalism and socialism will need to merge"

"Wealth has become abundant, thanks to capitalism, but it now needs to be more broadly redistributed, as socialists have long called for."

"In the new institutional context, governments will need to intervene more to ensure better and fairer outcomes from private sector investments. One way this can be done is by introducing a universal basic income (UBI) funded by taxing wealth and passive income, and by making better use of public savings."

One article is titled:

(https://i.imgur.com/LGXhnMD.png)

And you are arguing that their video was just an example of what might happen "for better or worse" and is totally unrelated to what these extremists actually want?

The World Economics Forum thinks that maybe that Karl Marx guy was right after all:

The Nation - https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/global-business-elite-go-marxist-davos/

Quote
Strange as it may seem, debates on the dangers of rising income inequality are now de rigueur at the annual gathering of the global business elite at this snowbound Swiss mountain resort. During this year’s four-day meeting of the World Economic Forum, 2,600 corporate CEOs, investment bankers, fund managers and assorted social and intellectual entrepreneurs brainstormed and networked frantically during the day. Then, by night, they slithered from party to party in the old tuberculosis sanitariums—now five-star wellness hotels—along the ice-covered promenade.

More than half the 1,200 investors, analysts and traders consulted in a Bloomberg poll published on the eve of the summit agreed that inequality damages economic growth. “Marx was right; capitalism creates obstacles to its own advancement,” said Roubini. The audience nodded in agreement and then headed off for sessions on new investment opportunities in “frontier markets” like Mongolia and Azerbaijan.

Economist - https://web.archive.org/web/20200516154508if_/https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/05/03/rulers-of-the-world-read-karl-marx

Quote
The World Economic Forum’s annual jamboree in Davos, Switzerland, might well be retitled “Marx was right”.

They have a video titled: Can You Rent Everything You Need in Life?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpz6K1sSIPY&ab_channel=WorldEconomicForum

So is this actually something that they don't want? They are clearly trying to sell us on it.

Based on their other materials these aren't actually extreme communists or socialists producing these ideas?

Be honest. It's a video with 143 likes and 2.3K dislikes. Maybe everyone who watched the video just took it the wrong way and the WEF is really promoting things that they don't want but 'may' happen?

(https://i.imgur.com/xrnQED4.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/2ilghwE.png)

Maybe it will work this time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2021, 06:06:52 AM
Tom spends alot of time on current trends of a capitalist society.

What he calls "communism" is actually just extreme capitalism.

Ever heard of a car lease?  Its a great way for dealerships to make money by having you "rent" a car and giving you another one after a period of time, all while ensuring you never stop paying a monthly fee that is equal to or higher than a car loan.  And you don't own the car at the end of the period. (Unless you buy it which will cost more than its worth)
And if you don't want it, they sell it as a used car.  Its a win-win for capitalism! (Just not consumers)

So expand that model to other areas: Homes (oh we already have that), entertainment(already have that), computers (have that too).

And if say... HP decides they won't sell PCs but only lease them and the other makers follow suite.... What do you think will happen?  Do you think some small company will rise up and become a major player in the field?  Because that hasn't happened yet....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2021, 06:28:06 AM
To get back on Track...

Tennessee is pandering to its stupid parts.
https://amp.tennessean.com/amp/7928701002?__twitter_impression=true

Summary: The state governemnt thinks vaccines are bad now(for minors) so they want no part in it.  Which includes both corona and normal, done for the last half a century vaccines like HVP, MMR, etc...
Because solociting vaccines for minors is bad, apparently?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 15, 2021, 11:23:19 AM
Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked during that same period, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

What's the point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't have had lockdowns, limited travel, mask mandates?
If it isn't Tom's point, I will proudly take that mantle.

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 02:10:25 PM

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2021, 02:29:06 PM
Now that the "here's how Trump can still win" mantra has faded, 'the great reset' is what we'll get to hear all about?

Hold on a second.  It's not August 13 yet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 15, 2021, 03:31:36 PM

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," (I thought for the libtards, the concept of everyone being worthwhile, therefore = essential," was a hill worthy to be won in the SJW fight) received theirs much the same.

All musings uttered by such people are so philosophically and intellectually disingenuous it beggars belief.

You, quite obviously, have no clue as to what constitutes free market capitalism (or worse yet, purposefully) choosing to describe any current world economic system in use (including that of the US), as capitalism.

It isn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 04:05:58 PM
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," received theirs much the same.
Please tell me how non-essential people became richer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 15, 2021, 04:11:28 PM
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," received theirs much the same.
Please tell me how non-essential people became richer.
They lost their jobs, which, in many cases, was their only access to medical insurance, but then got handed a few covidbucks and bidenbucks for their troubles
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 04:12:39 PM
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," received theirs much the same.
Please tell me how non-essential people became richer.
They lost their jobs, which, in many cases, was their only access to medical insurance, but then got handed a few covidbucks and bidenbucks for their troubles
oh okay, I stand corrected then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2021, 05:42:23 PM
Tom spends alot of time on current trends of a capitalist society.

What he calls "communism" is actually just extreme capitalism.

Ever heard of a car lease?  Its a great way for dealerships to make money by having you "rent" a car and giving you another one after a period of time, all while ensuring you never stop paying a monthly fee that is equal to or higher than a car loan.  And you don't own the car at the end of the period. (Unless you buy it which will cost more than its worth)
And if you don't want it, they sell it as a used car.  Its a win-win for capitalism! (Just not consumers)

From the consumer's point of view that's pretty close to communism. Under communism the state owns everything. In this case it's just a matter of defining the big businesses as 'the government'. And seeing as the World Economic Forum comprises of big companies conspiring with world leaders to reshape the economy and the nature of capitalism, 'because of Covid', those businesses basically are the governing body.

They also want to reinvent capitalism to make "society" a stakeholder, suspiciously like the underlying ideas of communism/fascism of years past.

See this on the Great Reset from the Foundation for Economic Education:

https://fee.org/articles/is-stakeholder-capitalism-newspeak-for-economic-fascism/

Quote
Leaders of the World Economic Forum are seeking to implement a Great Reset of capitalism whereby “global stakeholders” cooperate to achieve “shared goals.” In the true spirit of not letting a crisis go to waste, they see the COVID-19 pandemic as presenting a unique opportunity to push their agenda.

"The level of cooperation and ambition this implies is unprecedented. But it is not some impossible dream," World Economic Forum Executive Chairman Klaus Schwab recently observed. "In fact, one silver lining of the pandemic is that it has shown how quickly we can make radical changes to our lifestyles."

Of course, when they say “our lifestyles” they mean your lifestyle, not their own. Their preferred vehicle for achieving their goals is other people’s businesses. In short, what they want is for private businesses to serve the interests of their own curated list of stakeholders rather than (as they see it) concentrating on returning profits to business owners. They want governments to pass laws and tax regimes to cajole businesses towards their favored ends. Since this arrangement still involves a modicum of private ownership of the means of production, they call it “Stakeholder Capitalism.”

It is important to recognize the subversive use of language here. Such a system is all about sidelining the true stakeholders, and undermining capitalism. This is Orwellian Newspeak at its best, since it misuses the word “stakeholder” and is actually closer to economic fascism than capitalism.

~

Why Stakeholder Capitalism Is Socially Destructive

When global re-setters insist that “all” stakeholders should be represented, what they really mean is “I neither eat pizza nor help to produce pizza… but WHAT IS THE PIZZA SHOP DOING FOR ME?!”

It is a boldfaced attempt to substitute the interests of non-stakeholders for the interests of stakeholders, using surreptitious language to blur the line.

“Society as a whole” has no unified goal, and if it did there would be no way to ascertain what it was. So those who try to install “society” as a stakeholder in the activities of corporations, are eager to insert their own goals and interests.

Murray Rothbard puts it well:

    "Whenever someone begins to talk about ‘society’ or ‘society’s’ interest coming before ‘mere individuals and their interest,’ a good operative rule is: guard your pocketbook. And guard yourself! Because behind the facade of ‘society,’ there is always a group of power-hungry doctrinaires and exploiters, ready to take your money and to order your actions and your life. For, somehow, they ‘are’ society!"

~

A system that replaces the goals of true stakeholders with the iron will of ruling elites, which retains nominal private ownership, but uses government force to pressure firms to serve centrally determined goals, looks and smells an awful lot like economic fascism.

Chilling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 12:19:26 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

Quote from: World Economic Forum
Welcome To 2030: I Own Nothing, Have No Privacy And Life Has Never Been Better
World Economic Forum

Welcome to the year 2030. Welcome to my city - or should I say, "our city." I don't own anything. I don't own a car. I don't own a house. I don't own any appliances or any clothes.

It might seem odd to you, but it makes perfect sense for us in this city. Everything you considered a product, has now become a service. We have access to transportation, accommodation, food and all the things we need in our daily lives. One by one all these things became free, so it ended up not making sense for us to own much.

Really, how do you make food free?

Some kind of crazy communist or socialist scheme, undoubtedly.

They also want us to have no privacy. They put that right in the title. What an attractive plan for us.

Living arrangements will be shared:

Quote from: World Economic Forum
In our city we don't pay any rent, because someone else is using our free space whenever we do not need it. My living room is used for business meetings when I am not there.

Real practical. As if anyone wants to hold their business meeting in someone's living room, or that people want to have their living rooms look like a meeting room. I guess in our new life we're going to be living in office spaces and letting our masters know when we're leaving the premises or want to schedule time in the communal make-shift living room. It seems from that quote of having people use free living space when not needed that they want us to share bathrooms and kitchens too. Exciting.

At the bottom of this page (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/01/davos-agenda-2021-beyond-geopolitics-international-institutions-multilateral-world-social-justice-public-private-partnership/) from the World Leaders part at the bottom that the Presidents of China, France, the European Commission, South Africa, South Korea, Chancellor of Germany, the Secretary General of the UN, Prime Minister of Italy, and Prime Minister of Japan are all interested in implementing the utopian visions of this insane organization for us, as well as Joe Biden and Prince Phillip when he was alive, as we saw on the previous page.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 16, 2021, 02:37:18 AM
Idk, "life has never been better" is also in the title. Sounds p lit tbh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on July 16, 2021, 06:37:20 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

That's the exact same article the Reuters piece discussed, and I linked to it a few posts back. You haven't discovered anything new here; you're just revealing that you haven't been paying attention to the things you're responding to. So, like the Reuters piece said, the existence of that article does not mean that the scenario described therein is a "goal" for the WEF or something they've set an "agenda" for, and like I said, the scenario is impossible with today's technology.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 07:45:40 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

That's the exact same article the Reuters piece discussed, and I linked to it a few posts back. You haven't discovered anything new here; you're just revealing that you haven't been paying attention to the things you're responding to. So, like the Reuters piece said, the existence of that article does not mean that the scenario described therein is a "goal" for the WEF or something they've set an "agenda" for, and like I said, the scenario is impossible with today's technology.

Are you talking about this Reuters article (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0)?

The Reuters link is talking about a video. The Forbes article is neither linked or mentioned in the Reuters article at all. That's incorrect. The Forbes article is clearly trying to sell us the concept as a utopia, and goes into it with more depth than the video did, which represented it as a prediction. They like the concept enough that they are making videos and writing articles about it, and imagining a society based on the concept.

At the bottom of the Forbes article it says that it was written ahead of their annual meeting

Quote
This blog was written ahead of the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting of the Global Future Councils.

Ida Auken is a Young Global Leader and Member of the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum,

The person who wrote that article is a Danish Politician and former Minister of the Environment:

(https://i.imgur.com/HYWqAmk.png)

Other articles on the site talk about it as well. That's what all of the "changing capitalism" stuff is about.

Among its predictions in the Forbes article it predicts that transportation costs will drop:

Quote
First communication became digitized and free to everyone. Then, when clean energy became free, things started to move quickly. Transportation dropped dramatically in price.

In another article about the Fourth Industrial Revolution by Klaus Schwab it's making similar predictions:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-industrial-revolution-what-it-means-and-how-to-respond/

Quote
The Fourth Industrial Revolution: what it means, how to respond
Klaus Schwab
Founder and Executive Chairman, World Economic Forum

...

In the future, technological innovation will also lead to a supply-side miracle, with long-term gains in efficiency and productivity. Transportation and communication costs will drop, logistics and global supply chains will become more effective, and the cost of trade will diminish, all of which will open new markets and drive economic growth.

...

The Fourth Industrial Revolution, finally, will change not only what we do but also who we are. It will affect our identity and all the issues associated with it: our sense of privacy, our notions of ownership, our consumption patterns, the time we devote to work and leisure, and how we develop our careers, cultivate our skills, meet people, and nurture relationships. It is already changing our health and leading to a “quantified” self, and sooner than we think it may lead to human augmentation. The list is endless because it is bound only by our imagination.

- Supply-side miracle = Robots will make everything
- Low Transportation Cost = Automated drones and cars
- Sense of Privacy = Loss of Privacy
- Notions of Ownership = Ownership not as important

Same themes as the Forbes article. Not a coincidence. And mastermind Klaus Schwab wrote this article himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. The difference between that Forbes article and this one is that it is apparent that Schwab is being a bit vague about the specifics. But it's apparent that the other lady is stating the same vision.

Schwab and Co. keep going on and on about how we need to "reset capitalism" and an endless array of similar phrases. They are clearly seeking radical change.

An Australian Senator also interprets the aims of the WEF as extreme:

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/the-great-reset-is-crazy-kooky-stuff-which-aims-for-no-private-property-by-2030/video/89852f7d31c1960fec83113a60069df7

Quote
The Great Reset is ‘crazy, kooky stuff’ which aims for ‘no private property by 2030’
November 17, 2020 - 23:18PM

Nationals Senator Matt Canavan says the World Economic Forum’s plan for the Great Reset is “crazy, kooky stuff”.

Mr Canavan said the Forum recently released a video clip outlining that by 2030, “they don’t want anyone to own property”.

“You’ll own no property and you’ll be happier apparently,” he said.

“This stuff is crazy, kooky stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Canavan

According to his bio he's an Australian Senator, an Economist, and former Minister of Resources. How is it that he understands that the material they produce represents what they want and what this is but you don't?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 16, 2021, 08:45:15 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

That's the exact same article the Reuters piece discussed, and I linked to it a few posts back. You haven't discovered anything new here; you're just revealing that you haven't been paying attention to the things you're responding to. So, like the Reuters piece said, the existence of that article does not mean that the scenario described therein is a "goal" for the WEF or something they've set an "agenda" for, and like I said, the scenario is impossible with today's technology.

Are you talking about this Reuters article (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0)?

The Reuters link is talking about a video. The Forbes article is neither linked or mentioned at all. That's incorrect. The article is clearly trying to sell us the concept as a utopia, and goes into it with more depth than the video did, which represented it as a prediction. They like the concept enough that they are making videos and writing articles about it, and imagining a society based on the concept.

At the bottom of the Forbes article it says that it was written ahead of their annual meeting

Quote
This blog was written ahead of the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting of the Global Future Councils.

Ida Auken is a Young Global Leader and Member of the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum,

The person who wrote that article is a Danish Politician and former Minister of the Environment:

(https://i.imgur.com/HYWqAmk.png)

The video that Reuters refers to is an outgrowth of Auken's blog post, which you already cited, "Welcome to 2030. I Own Nothing, Have No Privacy, and Life Has Never Been Better"

In an update, which Reuters also referenced, she states:

"Author’s note: Some people have read this blog as my utopia or dream of the future. It is not. It is a scenario showing where we could be heading – for better and for worse. I wrote this piece to start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.

Written by Ida Auken, Member of Parliament, Parliament of Denmark (Folketinget)
"
https://futurism.com/welcome-2030-nothing-privacy-life-better

Not to mention at the bottom of every article published on the WEF site it has the caveat "The views expressed in this article are those of the author alone and not the World Economic Forum."

Lastly, the article and video were from like 2016. You know, a few years before Covid. So how is it relevant to this thread?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 09:31:48 AM
Quote
Some people have read this blog as my utopia or dream of the future. It is not. It is a scenario showing where we could be heading – for better and for worse.

Even in her response to the criticism she suggests that she thinks that it's a scenario that we're heading for, "for better and for worse". Was she writing an article about what she doesn't think is going to happen? No. She clearly wouldn't be writing something she didn't think could happen. The video was about what the WEF predicted, and was paraded around with their logo. The article describes the vision more at length.

Her vision is nearly identical in its themes to Klaus Schwab's vision in his article. You did not even address that. I also notice that you didn't address all of the Marxist and socialist crap that they spew, and their wanting to 'reimagine capitalism', redistribute wealth, or anything else that fits hand-in-glove with this.

She's in the Global Leader Under 40 group and is on the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum:

Quote
Ida Auken is a Young Global Leader and Member of the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum

Obviously she represents that organization and the argument that she doesn't represent WEF is blatantly wrong.

Quote from: stack
Lastly, the article and video were from like 2016. You know, a few years before Covid. So how is it relevant to this thread?

They are using Covid to push through their Great Reset that 'reimagines' and 'resets' capitalism.

https://www.weforum.org/focus/the-great-reset

Quote
"The pandemic represents a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reflect, reimagine, and reset our world" - Professor Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman, World Economic Forum.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/affluence-bigger-threat-than-coronavirus-scientists-capitalism/

Quote
The World Economic Forum has called for a great reset of capitalism in the wake of the pandemic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeykREAlYSg&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia

I'm of the opinion that we don't need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid or climate change. Maybe you can tell us in your own words why capitalism needs to be changed because of the Covid. Lets hear your arguments in favor of this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 16, 2021, 03:21:49 PM
I'm of the opinion that we don't need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid or climate change.
Tom, you cannot possibly believe there is anything remotely resembling capitalism in action in today's world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 05:12:52 PM
I'm of the opinion that we don't need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid or climate change.
Tom, you cannot possibly believe there is anything remotely resembling capitalism in action in today's world.

Well yes, we are already so socialized with heavy regulations, taxes, and social programs that it's obvious that these are just socialists and communists who want to go all the way with it now. Give a hand, they take an arm.

Notice that the liberals here can't muster even the weakest defense on the views of needing to "reimagine capitalism" to deal with Covid. It's extremist and ridiculous on its face. They are also hesitant to disavow it, because if you are still a Democrat at this point you are practically a full blown socialist/communist wanting to see through anything that falls in line with your views, even if they appear to be crazed rantings of a bond-villain born in Nazi Germany.

Listen to this short clip of how Fidel Castro described his system of government and compare it to what the Democrats and liberals are chanting:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1415661579887157252/pu/vid/1280x592/I4KX-5icDahFA2fo.mp4
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 16, 2021, 05:29:20 PM
Anyway, back on topic, France is upping the ante.

Quote from: https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/16/europe-s-week-macron-s-vaccine-push-eu-s-green-plans-and-deadly-floods
Macron is done politely pleading with the French to get vaccinated.

He is now playing hardball and came with the shock announcement that life for the unvaccinated will become miserable.

"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

The prospect of not being able to do anything fun during the summer and beyond made people jump into action.

In the first 24 hours after the speech, more than a million people booked vaccination appointments – 20,000 per minute. A record since the start of the campaign.

Vive la France!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 20, 2021, 11:17:13 AM
The Netherlands is leading the world in innovative ideas again. You can now go to Haarlem for a jab and a blind date (https://www.nu.nl/facebooklinks/6146668/ggd-komt-met-datingavond-in-haarlem-sjansen-met-janssen.html) while you wait to be allowed to leave the testing centre. The idea is to help single people for whom the lockdown has been particularly lonely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 20, 2021, 01:16:24 PM
That's an awesome plan.

Here our public health authorities just told people during the peak of the pandemic that if they had to keep hooking up with tinder dates, they should do it doggy style, reverse cow girl or use glory holes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 20, 2021, 01:18:12 PM
That’s right, Canada’s government fucks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2021, 05:36:20 PM
Anyway, back on topic, France is upping the ante.

Quote from: https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/16/europe-s-week-macron-s-vaccine-push-eu-s-green-plans-and-deadly-floods
Macron is done politely pleading with the French to get vaccinated.

He is now playing hardball and came with the shock announcement that life for the unvaccinated will become miserable.

"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

The prospect of not being able to do anything fun during the summer and beyond made people jump into action.

In the first 24 hours after the speech, more than a million people booked vaccination appointments – 20,000 per minute. A record since the start of the campaign.

Vive la France!

Please familiarize yourself with the Nuremberg Code.

(https://i.imgur.com/79P80I6.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 21, 2021, 06:03:48 PM
One for Tom

https://newsthump.com/2021/07/19/no-one-has-the-right-to-tell-me-what-to-do-with-my-body-insists-anti-vaxxer-who-says-women-shouldnt-have-right-to-choose/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
One for Tom

https://newsthump.com/2021/07/19/no-one-has-the-right-to-tell-me-what-to-do-with-my-body-insists-anti-vaxxer-who-says-women-shouldnt-have-right-to-choose/

I don't think you should be disallowed from aborting your seed. I encourage you, in particular, to do so.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 21, 2021, 11:10:31 PM
Please familiarize yourself with the Nuremberg Code.

(https://i.imgur.com/79P80I6.png)

That's not what the New England Journal of Medicine think it's for.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199711133372006
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2021, 11:28:26 PM
That's not what the New England Journal of Medicine think it's for.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199711133372006

The article says that it applies to ulterior form of constraint and coercion, not just direct forced injection:

Quote
1.The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.

This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision

It then goes on to give an example with the malaria treatment from Andrew Ivy, co-author of the code:

Quote
Ivy explained that these common-sense principles mirrored the understanding shared by everyone in practice in the medical community.12 The first principle was that a physician would never do anything to a patient or subject before obtaining his or her consent. Ivy also asserted that, unlike Leibbrand, he did not consider prisoners to be in an inherently coercive situation and thus unable to give consent, because in democratic countries where the rights of individuals are respected, prisoners can always say yes or no without fear of being punished.12 He testified:

"The American malaria experiments with 800 or more prisoners were absolutely justified, scientifically, legally and ethically even if they bring with them danger to human life. To treat malaria was an important scientific problem, and so long as the subjects volunteer and are explained the hazards of the experiments, there is no ethical reason against it. . . . If prisoners condemned to death are volunteers, then it was ethical to do just that."

During cross-examination, Ivy acknowledged that there were no written principles of research in the United States or elsewhere before December 1946 and that the principles adopted by the American Medical Association were expressly formulated for the Doctors' Trial.12 Ivy also recognized that the right of the research subject to withdraw from an experiment may not always exist, as in the malaria experiments in which the subjects had already been infected, or in dangerous experiments in which the subjects could be severely injured or fatally harmed. Ivy agreed with Leibbrand that researchers must refuse to conduct experiments on human beings when ordered by the state in order “to save lives,” because in such cases subjects would not be volunteers. He declared that “[t]here is no justification in killing five people in order to save the lives of five hundred” and that “no state or politician under the sun could force [him] to perform a medical experiment which [he] thought was morally unjustified.”12 Ivy also stressed that the state may not assume the moral responsibility of physicians to their patients or research subjects, arguing that “[E]very physician should be acquainted with the Hippocratic Oath [which] represents the Golden Rule of the medical profession in the United States, and, to [his] knowledge, throughout the world.”12

See the last bolded piece. It doesn't matter if the treatment saves many lives. It's still unethical to coerce people into taking it.

The article also emphasizes the right to withdraw:

Quote
Medical Ethics and Human Rights

The judges at Nuremberg, although they realized the importance of Hippocratic ethics and the maxim primum non nocere, recognized that more was necessary to protect human research subjects. Accordingly, the judges articulated a sophisticated set of 10 research principles centered not on the physician but on the research subject. These principles, which we know as the Nuremberg Code, included a new, comprehensive, and absolute requirement of informed consent (principle 1), and a new right of the subject to withdraw from participation in an experiment (principle 9). The judges adopted much of the language proposed by Alexander and Ivy but were more emphatic about the necessity and attributes of the subject's consent and explicitly added the subject's right to withdraw.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2021, 10:27:27 AM
The repeated word/phrase in the code is experiment/experimentation.

Applying a vaccine to prevent the spread of a pandemic is not experimentation. It's a treatment.

Wikipedia;

"The Nuremberg Code (German: Nürnberger Kodex) is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. In a review written on the 50th anniversary of the Brandt verdict, Katz writes that "a careful reading of the judgment suggests that" the authors wrote the Kodex "for the practice of human experimentation whenever it is being conducted.""
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 22, 2021, 10:56:15 AM

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," (I thought for the libtards, the concept of everyone being worthwhile, therefore = essential," was a hill worthy to be won in the SJW fight) received theirs much the same.

All musings uttered by such people are so philosophically and intellectually disingenuous it beggars belief.

You, quite obviously, have no clue as to what constitutes free market capitalism (or worse yet, purposefully) choosing to describe any current world economic system in use (including that of the US), as capitalism.

It isn't.

I mean... Its regulated capitalism, but still based on the accumulation of profit.  Not like... Communism or barter system.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 22, 2021, 04:31:55 PM
The repeated word/phrase in the code is experiment/experimentation.

Applying a vaccine to prevent the spread of a pandemic is not experimentation. It's a treatment.

Wikipedia;

"The Nuremberg Code (German: Nürnberger Kodex) is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. In a review written on the 50th anniversary of the Brandt verdict, Katz writes that "a careful reading of the judgment suggests that" the authors wrote the Kodex "for the practice of human experimentation whenever it is being conducted.""

The vaccines haven't been tested long term. They are new, and involve never before deployed genetic programming which permanently reprograms our bodies to produce a substance it does not normally produce. How in the world is that not experimental?

It usually takes a long period of time to test drugs and vaccines:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK24645/

Drug Animal Testing:

"This stage of safety testing usually takes about 4 years. Drug companies test for mutagenicity (ability to cause genetic changes) and carcinogenicity (ability to cause cancer). The drugs are also tested to confirm that they do not cause infertility (inability to have children) or birth defects. This stage of safety testing takes many years, because it may take a long period of time for animals to develop cancer or infertility as a result of a toxic drug."

It takes years for a reason.

The whole process of human drug testing typically takes a long time:

"Clinical testing is complex and time-consuming, averaging 14 years to complete Phase I through III testing to gain FDA approval."

Typical vaccine development:

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

So it takes 10 to 15 years normally. Why is that? Because they don't want to give people things which might cause adverse effects down the line.

Obviously if Nazi Germany was claiming that its experiments during WWII were "approved" and "fine", and "in our estimation it's safe" and "we tested it on some mice for a short time," that would still violate the Nuremberg Code when they forced it on people. The government's opinion is irrelevant. They are still experiments, no matter what the government claims.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 22, 2021, 07:24:05 PM
The mRNA vaccine platform has been tested on humans since at least 2008 and shown to be safe. The question is whether the spike protein replication is safe; this is not an entirely settled question.

Regardless, the decision was made to allow emergency use. I find citing international agreements to be a bit disingenuous, since the US flagrantly gives no fucks about them in a number of areas, so clearly an adherence to this particular one is merely politically motivated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 22, 2021, 07:31:06 PM
Regardless, the decision was made to allow emergency use. I find citing international agreements to be a bit disingenuous, since the US flagrantly gives no fucks about them in a number of areas, so clearly an adherence to this particular one is merely politically motivated.
The Nuremberg Code isn't even an international agreement. It's a set of guidelines some people wrote down 70 years ago, and which has inspired various treaties and laws, but by itself it has no power, legal or otherwise, anywhere in the world.

I was trying to ignore this obviously terrible troll, but apparently other people have decided to engage, so I've said my piece now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2021, 08:09:02 PM
The vaccines haven't been tested long term.

For blatantly obvious reasons. One of which was the loss of 600k American lives. Many others worldwide.

They are new, and involve never before deployed genetic programming which permanently reprograms our bodies to produce a substance it does not normally produce. How in the world is that not experimental?

It is not for the purpose of an experiment. It is to save lives.

It usually takes a long period of time to test drugs and vaccines: .... 10 to 15 years normally. Why is that? Because they don't want to give people things which might cause adverse effects down the line.

600k deaths in less than a year should make it clear to you that the standard 10 to 15 years were not available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 23, 2021, 06:22:10 AM
The Hypocratic Oath isn't legally binding either. People value it for reasons other than legality.

Quote from: Tumeni
It is not for the purpose of an experiment. It is to save lives.

So the Nazis just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

Quote from: Tumeni
600k deaths in less than a year should make it clear to you that the standard 10 to 15 years were not available.

China didn't have a problem with extinguishing Covid without forcefully or coersively injecting experiments into people. Their pandemic only lasted about a month and a half or so. What's the problem with your country?

(https://i.imgur.com/xE2bKdc.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 23, 2021, 10:24:32 AM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 23, 2021, 10:52:26 AM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.
Yes, it's interesting that Tom now thinks China are the bastions of truth.
How'd ya like them cherries?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 23, 2021, 12:38:07 PM
So the Nazi's just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

False equivalence.

Germany had invaded Poland first, and then other countries within Europe. There was a war on, with France, UK, and latterly the USA, all joining as allies to fight back the Germans, defend their own countries, and halt what the Germans were doing to the Jews and others.

None of that applies here and now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 23, 2021, 08:01:05 PM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.

Pretty sure forced quarantine is more morally justifiable than forced experimental injection.
 
What do you think happens to you when you are on board a ship and your shipmates are found to be communicating a contagious disease? Quarantine.

How is it that China knew what to do, but other countries led many thousands to their deaths?

So the Nazi's just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

False equivalence.

Germany had invaded Poland first, and then other countries within Europe. There was a war on, with France, UK, and latterly the USA, all joining as allies to fight back the Germans, defend their own countries, and halt what the Germans were doing to the Jews and others.

None of that applies here and now.

Uh, what? The Nuremberg Code was created because of Germany, but wasn't directed only at Germany. Not sure why you think only the Nazis can do unethical things.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: scomato on July 23, 2021, 11:05:06 PM
If you've ever eaten fast food, it's hypocritical to be anti-vax, since that burger patty contains just as much animal vaccine, growth hormone, and antibiotic substances than you could ever fit in half a milliliter of vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on July 24, 2021, 12:20:25 AM
The correct risk control behavior is to:

1. Not take the vaccine, wear a mask when necessary and avoid social gatherings
2. Encourage other people to take it (as long as they aren't family or friends)

Then, you successfully take full advantage of having others shoulder the burden of possible vaccine side effects while acquiring herd immunity.

Please get vaccinated, by the way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 24, 2021, 01:19:26 AM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.

Pretty sure forced quarantine is more morally justifiable than forced experimental injection.

Are people being held down and injected?
 
Quote
What do you think happens to you when you are on board a ship and your shipmates are found to be communicating a contagious disease? Quarantine.

Lol.

Quote
How is it that China knew what to do, but other countries led many thousands to their deaths?

Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 24, 2021, 04:25:27 AM
Are people being held down and injected?

Pretty much. They are being told that they can't go to the hospital or to shopping centers if they don't get the injection:

Quote
"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

Quote from: Rama Set
Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.

Just a few posts ago you were arguing in favor of breaking the Nuremberg Code to force or coerce people into taking the experimental vaccines. Now you are arguing that being put into quarantine infringes on rights.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 24, 2021, 11:03:22 AM
Are people being held down and injected?

Pretty much. They are being told that they can't go to the hospital or to shopping centers if they don't get the injection:

Quote
"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

So no one is being held down and injected.

Quote
Quote from: Rama Set
Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.

Just a few posts ago you were arguing in favor of breaking the Nuremberg Code to force or coerce people into taking the experimental vaccines. Now you are arguing that being put into quarantine infringes on rights.  ::)

This is spectacularly terrible, even for you. It’s sad and pathetic that you can’t make an argument without absolutely distorting what I’ve said. I regret having engaged. Go back to tilting at windmills.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on July 24, 2021, 05:25:49 PM
It now looks like info of whats in these gene therapy shots is being released. It ain't pretty.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-breaking-discovery-what-covid-injections-do-your-blood-doctor-releases-horrific-findings/5750573
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 24, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
So no one is being held down and injected.
They’re not, but I do think Tom is on to something here.

Ok, so you don’t have to have the vaccine.
But if you don’t then you can’t go into a nightclub (in the UK from September). And let’s say they extend that to restaurants and concerts and theatres. What about shops? So sure, you’re completely free to not have the vaccine. They’re not going to strap you down and make you, but they could certainly make increasing restrictions to the point where there’s not much quality of life if you don’t.

Now, I do think most people should have the vaccine. But most young people who get it will have mild symptoms. So if they decide they don’t want the vaccine then should they be coerced like this? The argument is that they could still catch it and spread it to more vulnerable people but:

1) So can vaccinated people
2) If almost all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then they shouldn’t be at risk anyway.

I speak as someone who has been fully vaccinated, I’m young enough (just!) that I’m not at major risk, but it did seem like the right thing to do. But I do think there’s a principle here that this sort of coercion to almost force people to have the vaccine if they want to get on with their normal lives is morally questionable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 24, 2021, 06:00:30 PM
To be fair, Tom isn’t on to something. This is what you, a reasonable person, has teased out of his tripe.

I don’t think there should be government ordinances forcing businesses to act one way or another, but if a business wants to reject unvaccinated people then I support that choice. If the government wants to provide accessible, virtual alternatives to unvaccinated people to use services, I also support that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 24, 2021, 06:03:31 PM
The argument is that they could still catch it and spread it to more vulnerable people but:

1) So can vaccinated people
This point keeps being raised, and the best thing that can be said about it is that it is technically true. Depending on the specific vaccine, choosing not to be vaccinated increases your chances of developing symptoms by a factor of between 3 and 10. Even if you do get infected after being vaccinated, you are likely to experience a shorter time to recovery, which reduces the number of opportunities you have to spread the virus.

2) If almost all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then they shouldn’t be at risk anyway.
Unless a new vaccine-resistant strain develops as a result of widespread recklessness around the spread of the virus, as we have already discussed in another thread.

But I do think there’s a principle here that this sort of coercion to almost force people to have the vaccine if they want to get on with their normal lives is morally questionable.
This is sort of like saying that it's morally questionable to require people with HIV to inform potential sexual partners of their condition. It is, after all, a restriction on their ability to lead a normal sex life. If you are a risk to public health and you choose not to mitigate that risk to others, you get to deal with the consequences.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 24, 2021, 07:09:13 PM
This is sort of like saying that it's morally questionable to require people with HIV to inform potential sexual partners of their condition. It is, after all, a restriction on their ability to lead a normal sex life. If you are a risk to public health and you choose not to mitigate that risk to others, you get to deal with the consequences.
Hmm. I think that’s a bit of a false equivalence but there is a principle here worth discussing.

I’d suggest that any policy here should surely be based on how much of a risk you actually are to public health.

We are, remember, talking about a virus which has a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) of about 1% here. And that risk is very much skewed towards older people. There is “long Covid” too of course and this pandemic has caused a lot of pressure on health services around the world. But this is not a disease which is decimating populations around the world.

 So any policies to deal with it should surely be proportional to the actual risk. If someone has a disease which kills 90% of people then sure, fuck human rights. You’ve got to lock that down. But that really isn’t the case here. You have the danger of mutations but couldn’t you say that about any virus at any time?

In life we deal with risk all the time. There are rules about how we drive and rightly so. You can’t just let people do whatever they want. But you don’t make everyone drive at 20mph so no one gets run over. You balance the risk against the practicalities of being able to get places.

My gut feeling is that stopping non vaccinated people from going to venues is out of proportion to the actual risk although that is hard to quantify. And I agree with Rama that if individual businesses want to make that their policy then that is literally their business, I’m just uneasy with it being made policy and effectively creating different “classes” of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 24, 2021, 07:10:17 PM
This point keeps being raised, and the best thing that can be said about it is that it is technically true. Depending on the specific vaccine, choosing not to be vaccinated increases your chances of developing symptoms by a factor of between 3 and 10. Even if you do get infected after being vaccinated, you are likely to experience a shorter time to recovery, which reduces the number of opportunities you have to spread the virus.
It's also worth highlighting that someone asymptomatic is, in some ways*, less likely to spread the virus whilst infected. An obvious example: coughing is more likely to project aerosols/droplets over some distance than regular breathing. This is especially significant now that restrictions and other countermeasures are easing in many parts of the world.

* - Obligatory disclaimer that an asymptomatic individual can also be more likely to spread the virus due to insufficient caution - they might not be cautious if they don't even know they're infectious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 24, 2021, 08:16:14 PM
I’d suggest that any policy here should surely be based on how much of a risk you actually are to public health.
Agreed.

My gut feeling is that stopping non vaccinated people from going to venues is out of proportion to the actual risk although that is hard to quantify.
That's a position I can respect, but only if you are consistent and also say that lockdown was always an excessive measure. If a vaccine-resistant strain develops, and if lockdown is a justifiable measure against a strain of this virus for which we have no vaccine, then allowing unvaccinated people to spread the virus is only likely to bring another year of lockdown while new vaccines are developed.

So, either there is no significant risk involved and we won't need another lockdown to deal with a vaccine-resistant strain — in which case we shouldn't have had the lockdown we already had — or we should be doing all we can to avoid further lockdowns with incentives to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 24, 2021, 10:08:23 PM
My gut feeling is that stopping non vaccinated people from going to venues is out of proportion to the actual risk although that is hard to quantify.
That's a position I can respect, but only if you are consistent and also say that lockdown was always an excessive measure.

My opinion about that has changed a few times during the pandemic.
We have spoken about the consequences of lockdowns - there is a debate to be had about whether this was a situation serious enough to justify lockdowns. I actually spoke to a doctor about this - she wasn't sure either. As she noted, what we can't know is what would have happened had we not locked down. This was definitely a situation which required a response, whether lockdowns were the right response...I'm a bit sceptical about that. Especially about the way they've been implemented here. We have typically locked down too late and with so many exceptions to render them ineffective. It's been lose lose - we've still had large waves of deaths and full hospitals and all the effects that lockdowns cause. Australia seem to have done this far more effectively with lockdowns being imposed quickly and been much stricter. They've had 1,269 cases per million (we've had 83,057) and 35 deaths per million (we've had 1,890).
(source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
So if you are going to do lockdowns, do them properly or don't bother.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 25, 2021, 02:26:26 PM
I go back to the office in a couple weeks, and I'm not looking forward to it. It's going to be challenging to avoid directly blaming every asshole I come across who refuses to get the vaccine for the surges we're seeing right now.

It's become very simple; we are essentially two societies now. One is saying "I'm gonna do what I can to mitigate the spread of this virus in service of the greater good."

The other is saying "Fuck the greater good, MAH RIGHTS! >o<".

That side that's more concerned about individual rights than the greater good. Well fine, technically maybe you shouldn't be forced to be vaccinated. But understand something.

You are the problem! You! If we end up going through oppressive lockdowns again, it will be entirely your fault! If a new variant comes about that is resistant to this vaccine and sends us back to square one, that's ALL ON YOU! Because freedom!

So, you know, go ahead and cling to this fantasy that you're doing what's right by standing up for your rights ( and that you're not, you know, acting as a political puppet by standing up for your right to not do something for the greater good). In the beginning, this pandemic was everybody's problem equally. No matter what your political affiliation, this problem couldn't be blamed on any of us as individuals. But that changed as soon as effective vaccines were found. From that point on we all took on some
personal responsibility for eradicating this thing.

If you're refusing to get the vaccine you are the problem. Period. Keep whingeing about your rights, whatever. Keep whining that steps taken to ensure enough of the population takes the vaccine to eliminate the problem are fascist. Fine. You have rights as an individual and no one should be able to force you to do anything medical if you don't want to, blah blah blah.

If that's your attitude, all the ill this virus causes from here on out is on your shoulders. Period.

It's going to be very difficult for me to not share this point of view loudly and vocally when I go back in to the office. :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 25, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I get my first dose next week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 26, 2021, 11:30:54 AM
A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.
What is your source for that figure?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 12:59:32 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 26, 2021, 01:27:19 PM
Look it up yourself.
I have, some time ago, and I got a very different answer. So I'm interested in your source.

Quote
Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER
I disagree. Here are the age adjusted figures for all cause mortality in the UK. It's 30 years of data with a consistently falling mortality rate and then last year it jumps up. And it's worth noting that many of the Covid deaths came in 2021 so it'll be interesting to see what the graph will be like when this year's data is added.

(https://i.ibb.co/0GsjqjS/Death-Rates-UK.jpg)

So something caused a lot of extra deaths last year, and looking at the data in the UK this Jan/Feb I suspect we'll see that this year too. So it's clearly not nothing.

The problem here is none of us have lived through a pandemic before. Some people seem to be expecting piles of bodies in the street like in Contagion. I don't think that's how these things play out in real life.

The CFR is about 1% in a developed country from the things I've read. And that's skewed towards older people. Plus there's people who get "long Covid". Sure, they might not die but they're getting quite poorly for a long time. This isn't just the flu. It's clearly a situation which demanded a response. I'm not convinced lockdowns were the right response but a lot of people were dying, a lot of others were getting ill enough to require hospital treatment and that was putting a lot of pressure on health services and meant it required a response.

Whether it was the right response is a different debate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 01:41:25 PM
^ Claiming that a single disease wiped out over .3 percent of the world's population last year.

AMAZING!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 02:04:27 PM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.

I'm really not trying to fearmonger here. I'm just being real. If you want to put your individual rights above getting rid of this thing for good that's your prerogative; you're right, you have the right to be a douchebag and ruin life for everyone else. Just understand that that's what you're doing by standing up to the rights that Tucker Carlson tells you you should be standing up for. Enjoy that empty exercise of "freedom". But I will be blaming you personally for everything bad we have to deal with from this thing from here on out, including any further restrictions on our freedom. If we have another lockdown it's your fault, Lackey. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine it's your fault, Lackey. Because Tucker Carlson told you to stand up for your rights, you puppet.

At this point I'm not going for fear. I'm more going for shame and possibly ostracization.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 26, 2021, 02:24:14 PM
^ Claiming that a single disease wiped out over .3 percent of the world's population last year.

AMAZING!
Is that a response to me? How the hell did you get that from my post?
You really have to stop straw manning people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 02:25:56 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.

There's no point in debating if you don't understand statistics, the basis for why this virus was so dangerous, hospitalization rates, or that 99.99999% of species "great and small" can't get this disease so the survival rate for them is 100%
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 03:26:49 PM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.

I'm really not trying to fearmonger here. I'm just being real. If you want to put your individual rights above getting rid of this thing for good that's your prerogative; you're right, you have the right to be a douchebag and ruin life for everyone else.
At this particular point in time you have ZERO evidence for even making this statement.

Hence, you are not being REAL, you are being FALSE.
Just understand that that's what you're doing by standing up to the rights that Tucker Carlson tells you you should be standing up for.
Just understand I do not do what others tell me to do, unless they are in a position of authority over me (at this point in my life that would be my father and my current supervisor, and even in those cases, I would weigh any potential consequences in a determination as to whether or not I would comply with the directions given, as all thinking people should do). So, you are still not REAL and remain firmly FALSE.
Enjoy that empty exercise of "freedom".
I will enjoy every moment of my life, not bound by your ilk.
But I will be blaming you personally for everything bad we have to deal with from this thing from here on out, including any further restrictions on our freedom. If we have another lockdown it's your fault, Lackey. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine it's your fault, Lackey. Because Tucker Carlson told you to stand up for your rights, you puppet.

At this point I'm not going for fear. I'm more going for shame and possibly ostracization.
LOL!!! Good luck with that.

Both actions you describe are "children of fear."

You entire post is simply weak and silly. Not surprising in the least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 03:28:08 PM
^ Claiming that a single disease wiped out over .3 percent of the world's population last year.

AMAZING!
Is that a response to me? How the hell did you get that from my post?
You really have to stop straw manning people.
Not a straw man.

Coronavirus has not killed .3 percent of the world's population.

The disease is a nothing burger.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 03:48:20 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.

There's no point in debating if you don't understand statistics, the basis for why this virus was so dangerous, hospitalization rates, or that 99.99999% of species "great and small" can't get this disease so the survival rate for them is 100%
There is also no point in debating if you do not have a point at all, but that has never stopped your attempts to do so in the past and I'll doubt you'll stop any time soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 26, 2021, 03:54:48 PM
Coronavirus has not killed .3 percent of the world's population.
I never claimed it has. What are you going on about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 04:29:05 PM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.

I'm really not trying to fearmonger here. I'm just being real. If you want to put your individual rights above getting rid of this thing for good that's your prerogative; you're right, you have the right to be a douchebag and ruin life for everyone else.
At this particular point in time you have ZERO evidence for even making this statement.

Hence, you are not being REAL, you are being FALSE.
Just understand that that's what you're doing by standing up to the rights that Tucker Carlson tells you you should be standing up for.
Just understand I do not do what others tell me to do, unless they are in a position of authority over me (at this point in my life that would be my father and my current supervisor, and even in those cases, I would weigh any potential consequences in a determination as to whether or not I would comply with the directions given, as all thinking people should do). So, you are still not REAL and remain firmly FALSE.
Enjoy that empty exercise of "freedom".
I will enjoy every moment of my life, not bound by your ilk.
But I will be blaming you personally for everything bad we have to deal with from this thing from here on out, including any further restrictions on our freedom. If we have another lockdown it's your fault, Lackey. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine it's your fault, Lackey. Because Tucker Carlson told you to stand up for your rights, you puppet.

At this point I'm not going for fear. I'm more going for shame and possibly ostracization.
LOL!!! Good luck with that.

Good luck with what? Blaming you and everyone else who refuses to get vaccinated on the grounds that you shouldn't have to for all the problems we have from here on out? Um, ok. Not sure where you think the challenge is. Whether you want to couch it as a rights issue or not doesn't change things. You are the reason we are seeing a surge right now. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine, it's because you refused to get vaccinated ( the fact that you choose to remain ignorant rather than actually look into the science behind it really doesn't remove any blame). If we have another oppressive lockdown, it's because you chose to exercise your right not to benefit the greater good by getting vaccinated.

Not sure where you think "luck" comes into it. I can blame you with no effort at all!

Also, you are a puppet. But don't worry, most puppets don't realize they're being controlled in the service of someone else's agenda. It's what makes you folks so useful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 04:39:19 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.

There's no point in debating if you don't understand statistics, the basis for why this virus was so dangerous, hospitalization rates, or that 99.99999% of species "great and small" can't get this disease so the survival rate for them is 100%
There is also no point in debating if you do not have a point at all, but that has never stopped your attempts to do so in the past and I'll doubt you'll stop any time soon.

My point was that you lack the basic understanding needed to present your case.
I'll add 'seeing the point' to your defficencies. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 05:41:03 PM
Good luck with what?
Trying to separate fear from its children of shame and ostracization.
Blaming you and everyone else who refuses to get vaccinated on the grounds that you shouldn't have to for all the problems we have from here on out? Um, ok.
With no evidence. Which would be just as whimsical as everything else in your life.
Not sure where you think the challenge is. Whether you want to couch it as a rights issue or not doesn't change things. You are the reason we are seeing a surge right now.
Wrong.
If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine, it's because you refused to get vaccinated ( the fact that you choose to remain ignorant rather than actually look into the science behind it really doesn't remove any blame). If we have another oppressive lockdown, it's because you chose to exercise your right not to benefit the greater good by getting vaccinated.
Wrong.
Not sure where you think "luck" comes into it. I can blame you with no effort at all!
Sure you can. As if I care.
Also, you are a puppet. But don't worry, most puppets don't realize they're being controlled in the service of someone else's agenda. It's what makes you folks so useful.
Promoting MSM fear mongering makes you the biggest puppet in the conversation.

Like I wrote in the other thread, people like you are directly responsible for the deaths of my brother-in-law and sister. Promoting policy actions such as a lockdown or even remotely thinking it could have possibly been justified.

The deaths are on your hands, not mine. Mine have faces.

I won't forget.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 06:12:15 PM
Promoting MSM fear mongering makes you the biggest puppet in the conversation.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. The MSM is promoting the consensus of professionals around the globe, as am I. They are doing it in the interest of the greater good, as am I. You are basing your position on conspiracies and actual fearmongering by people with their own agendas that run counter to the greater good. HUGE difference.

If I'm a puppet of anything, it's of the common sense approach that in the midst of a health crisis you follow the guidelines of the professionals, not of Breitbart and Tucker Carlson. And I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 07:40:20 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 08:02:46 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.

He needs Jesus.
Jesus would mask up, despite being immune to disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 26, 2021, 08:10:50 PM
The company I work for is requiring everyone be vaccinated before returning to the office (excepting people who can't based on medical or religious reasons). I just had to upload a pic of my vaccination card even though I've always been a full remote employee.

Makes me wonder how many other companies are doing the same.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 26, 2021, 08:22:54 PM
Religious reasons? What might they be then?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 26, 2021, 08:37:02 PM
Religious reasons? What might they be then?

Christian Scientists famously reject all medical intervention.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on July 26, 2021, 09:41:24 PM
@Wuhan80

So if this is all fake and fear-mongering, how will you ever know when a real pandemic occurs?

There are no media outlets you trust, you have no doctors you trust and even your homeboy Trump admits that he lied about the pandemic.

You do understand that pandemics occur in nature? When the real one hits, how will you know and will you give the rest of us ignorant sheeple a heads up?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 06:12:12 AM
The vaccines are Highly Effective™

(https://i.ibb.co/hmwq7Sz/2wZaXYx3.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 06:57:48 AM
I don't understand how Vaccines Work™

Indeed. I'll add that to the long list...
The vaccine doesn't stop you catching Covid, it stops you developing symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisation - in most cases, not all before you start picking more cherries.
Is this really so difficult to comprehend?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 07:18:11 AM
I don't understand how Vaccines Work™

Indeed. I'll add that to the long list...
The vaccine doesn't stop you catching Covid, it stops you developing symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisation - in most cases, not all before you start picking more cherries.
Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

Wrong. They do claim it stops you from catching Covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

Quote
A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) are less likely to have asymptomatic infection or to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

Quote
The study demonstrates that these two mRNA vaccines can reduce the risk of all SARS-CoV-2 infections, not just symptomatic infections.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 07:21:30 AM
The study demonstrates that these two mRNA vaccines can reduce the risk of all SARS-CoV-2 infections, not just symptomatic infections.
Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 07:22:22 AM
The study demonstrates that these two mRNA vaccines can reduce the risk of all SARS-CoV-2 infections, not just symptomatic infections.
Hope that helps.

So you're wrong then. You said that it does not reduce infection or transmission.

The U.S. Department of Health & Human Services says that when most people are vaccinated the disease can't spread:

https://www.hhs.gov/immunization/basics/work/index.html

(https://i.imgur.com/sMHjaRl.png)

This is literally the opposite of what you say vaccines do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 07:27:37 AM
So you're wrong then. You said that it does not reduce infection or transmission.
No I didn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 07:30:01 AM
Incorrect. You claimed that the vaccine doesn't stop you from catching Covid right here:

The vaccine doesn't stop you catching Covid
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 07:35:56 AM
Holy shit! Now you're dishonestly cherry picking from my post. What does the rest say?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 27, 2021, 12:42:00 PM
The vaccines are Highly Effective™

(https://i.ibb.co/hmwq7Sz/2wZaXYx3.png)
According to the Royal Navy,
Quote from: https://web.archive.org/web/20130125062327/http://aircraftcarrieralliance.co.uk/en/the-ships/the-queen-elizabeth-class.aspx
each ship will have a total crew of 679, only increasing to the full complement of 1,600 when the air elements are embarked.
The best vaccines have an effectiveness of around 90% (https://www.rivm.nl/en/covid-19-vaccination/vaccines/efficacy-and-protection). 90% of a crew of 1600 is 1440, leaving 160 people who would be expected to get sick. As it turns out, 100 is less than 160.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 27, 2021, 03:21:19 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.
I am for facts, more so than you.

Your decided and evident tendency has been historically to believe in and merely echo the majority (i.e., lazy), much like your peanut sitting next to you.

As far as selfishness, I am responsible for me.

No one else is responsible for me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 27, 2021, 03:28:56 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.
Your sig is an indicator of poor reading comprehension.

There is no such thing as the greater good.

Every person is solely responsible for themselves and themselves alone.

I don't want your idiocy anywhere around me.

Like I said, keep blaming me for something that hasn't happened.

I will firmly blame you and the others here for something that has happened, the deaths of my brother-in-law and my sister.

You and the like-minded here, promoting the BS approach in response to this virus.

You are all promoting a lie.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 27, 2021, 03:44:26 PM
Well, thanks to the Delta surge, the CDC is recommending vaccinated people to start wearing masks indoors again. Thanks, lackey.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 27, 2021, 03:46:07 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.
Your sig is an indicator of poor reading comprehension.

There is no such thing as the greater good.

Every person is solely responsible for themselves and themselves alone.

I don't want your idiocy anywhere around me.

Like I said, keep blaming me for something that hasn't happened.

I will firmly blame you and the others here for something that has happened, the deaths of my brother-in-law and my sister.

You and the like-minded here, promoting the BS approach in response to this virus.

You are all promoting a lie.

The only BS in the approach was trying to appease both interests. You’re too bitter about your families deaths to admit that. Lockdowns are not BS, but half-assed ones are.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 27, 2021, 03:56:12 PM
Well, thanks to the Delta surge, the CDC is recommending vaccinated people to start wearing masks indoors again. Thanks, lackey.  ::)
They're vaccinated.

Protected.

The mask will protect them and you at the nearly 70 percent failure rate it had the first time.

I will continue to say "you're welcome," every time you thank me for something.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 27, 2021, 04:01:08 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.
Your sig is an indicator of poor reading comprehension.

There is no such thing as the greater good.

Every person is solely responsible for themselves and themselves alone.

I don't want your idiocy anywhere around me.

Like I said, keep blaming me for something that hasn't happened.

I will firmly blame you and the others here for something that has happened, the deaths of my brother-in-law and my sister.

You and the like-minded here, promoting the BS approach in response to this virus.

You are all promoting a lie.

The only BS in the approach was trying to appease both interests. You’re too bitter about your families deaths to admit that. Lockdowns are not BS, but half-assed ones are.
Full lockdowns are BS too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 27, 2021, 04:05:42 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.
I am for facts, more so than you.
Yet you dismiss using numbers as evidence.  Hmmm...  Tell me... Do facts come from inside your head?  Like a mysterious voice?


Quote
Your decided and evident tendency has been historically to believe in and merely echo the majority (i.e., lazy), much like your peanut sitting next to you.
Are you the kinda guy who'd jump off a bridge if the majority thought it was a dumb thing to do?

Quote
As far as selfishness, I am responsible for me.

No one else is responsible for me.
True, we are responsible for our own actions... Usually. 
However, you are using it in a very selfish way: that you don't have any responsibility to others. Its counter to this thing called society.  For example: if I want to blast loud music next door to your home, would you call the cops?  Because its not the cops job to make you happy, is it?  Its YOUR responsibility to ensure you aren't disturbed by loud music, not mine and not the police.

So what would you do?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 04:13:00 PM
Full lockdowns are BS too.
They have been very effective in Australia who have locked down hard and quickly.
Over here the government have done it so half arsed and so late - after cases were already spiralling out of control - to render them basically useless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 07:06:08 PM
They have been very effective in Australia who have locked down hard and quickly.
No they haven't. Australia has had problems enforcing them. Just doing a thing isn't the same as doing it well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/25/covid-sydney-police-punish-anti-lockdown-protesters

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f0ba9bcaf61256e32a1286771cf45e0c77b0459c/0_93_4725_2835/master/4725.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=e9a27a6f294f43801577e3261b2733a0)
^This is hardly efficiency. Australians are out punching horses, rather than staying at home locked up.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 08:05:03 PM
They have been very effective in Australia who have locked down hard and quickly.
No they haven't.

They've had 922 deaths. We've had over 129,000.
Your witness...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 27, 2021, 08:10:59 PM
They've had 922 deaths. We've had over 129,000.
Your witness...
In January and February — just before vaccines started to become generally available, but after the appearance of some more infectious strains — the northern hemiplane had our flu season while Australia was in the middle of summer. There are multiple factors at work here, and while I do agree that lockdowns likely played a big part in reducing the impact, there's more to it than just a difference in lockdown policy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 08:14:58 PM
They have been very effective in Australia who have locked down hard and quickly.
No they haven't.

Yes they have.
I don't believe our 129,000 number. Died 'with' covid makes this number utter bullshit. We'll never know how many people died 'of' covid, but I suspect it is an embarrassingly small number considering the economic havoc wreaked to prevent the spread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 08:18:12 PM
They've had 922 deaths. We've had over 129,000.
Your witness...
In January and February — just before vaccines started to become generally available, but after the appearance of some more infectious strains — the northern hemiplane had our flu season while Australia was in the middle of summer. There are multiple factors at work here, and while I do agree that lockdowns likely played a big part in reducing the impact, there's more to it than just a difference in lockdown policy.
This is obviously really complicated and you're right, there are multiple factors - Australia have a low population density, they're less of an international hub than the UK. But their numbers are orders of magnitude better than ours and I know from friends who live there that they lockdown at the first sign of a rise in infections. They seem to have handled this significantly better than our idiots.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 08:21:10 PM
I don't believe our 129,000 number. Died 'with' covid makes this number utter bullshit. We'll never know how many people died 'of' covid, but I suspect it is an embarrassingly small number considering the economic havoc reeked to prevent the spread.
[/quote]

Here are the excess deaths over the average over the last winter - this is from all causes and is compared with the average

(https://i.ibb.co/XY4sv4F/Excess-Deaths-Feb2021.jpg)

So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 08:31:58 PM
So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
How about cancelling all their operations and cancer treatements?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/patients-in-limbo-after-cancelled-cancer-surgery-as-covid-delays-nhs-care

The NHS has probably killed 129,000 people. I'm not sure covid has.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 08:36:49 PM
So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
How about cancelling all their operations and cancer treatements?
There will be certainly be a long term impact of this. And there's a debate to be had about whether it was worth it.
But no, that doesn't explain the immediate rise in deaths. One bloke the article quotes - who, you may note, is alive - says as much:

Quote
“The surgery was rebooked for 5 January but was again cancelled the day before. My oncologist told me that all [non-emergency] surgery is now cancelled indefinitely,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“Without this surgery my cancer may grow, spread or become untreatable, in which case I will be dead within the next few years.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 08:52:18 PM
So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
How about cancelling all their operations and cancer treatements?
There will be certainly be a long term impact of this. And there's a debate to be had about whether it was worth it.
But no, that doesn't explain the immediate rise in deaths. One bloke the article quotes - who, you may note, is alive - says as much:

Quote
“The surgery was rebooked for 5 January but was again cancelled the day before. My oncologist told me that all [non-emergency] surgery is now cancelled indefinitely,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“Without this surgery my cancer may grow, spread or become untreatable, in which case I will be dead within the next few years.”
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.

How many people got ill and died almost immediately because there was no help?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8996249/Why-GPs-refusing-patients-face-face.html

How many people with serious concerns stayed away?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/27/fears-seriously-ill-a-and-e-numbers-drop-coronavirus-nhs

In other news, those doctors who refuse to see patients, the administrators who cancelled hundreds of thousands of operations and the nurses who refused to help people because they didn't have facemasks ... have all threatened to go on strike unless they get a 12.5% pay rise.

Seriously, fuck the NHS. Its full of free-loaders who are canonized for being as lazy as possible. They never stop moaning and they can never be paid enough. Fuck em all off and REGULATE private health providers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 08:55:12 PM
The lockdown itself is causing excess deaths, as Thork pointed out. They are being mis-attributed to Covid because it's a highly transmissible harmless disease (or as harmful as the flu) that everyone gets. Unlike with the flu in previous years, the government is putting anything down as Covid, even if you die of a motorcycle accident with Covid in your system, as we saw in the other thread. That is a fraud on the public to make Covid into a bigger deal than it is.

The excess deaths that they couldn't pin on Covid are up all around during this Covid pandemic:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

Quote
A study analyzing US mortality in March-July 2020 reported a 20% increase in excess deaths, only partly explained by COVID-19. Surges in excess deaths varied in timing and duration across states and were accompanied by increased mortality from non–COVID-19 causes.

Caused by the lockdown.

Th data is clearly manipulated. The fact is that they are misreporting any death to be caused by Covid if there is Covid in your system.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

They didn't do that in previous years. If you had the flu and died in a motorcycle accident you were not counted as a flu death.

Why the new procedure?

It's a lie and a manipulation to fudge the numbers. You are perpetuating fraudulent arguments that do not hold up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 27, 2021, 08:59:09 PM
So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
How about cancelling all their operations and cancer treatements?
There will be certainly be a long term impact of this. And there's a debate to be had about whether it was worth it.
But no, that doesn't explain the immediate rise in deaths. One bloke the article quotes - who, you may note, is alive - says as much:

Quote
“The surgery was rebooked for 5 January but was again cancelled the day before. My oncologist told me that all [non-emergency] surgery is now cancelled indefinitely,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“Without this surgery my cancer may grow, spread or become untreatable, in which case I will be dead within the next few years.”
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.

How many people got ill and died almost immediately because there was no help?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8996249/Why-GPs-refusing-patients-face-face.html

How many people with serious concerns stayed away?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/27/fears-seriously-ill-a-and-e-numbers-drop-coronavirus-nhs

In other news, those doctors who refuse to see patients, the administrators who cancelled hundreds of thousands of operations and the nurses who refused to help people because they didn't have facemasks ... have all threatened to go on strike unless they get a 12.5% pay rise.

Seriously, fuck the NHS. Its full of free-loaders who are canonized for being as lazy as possible. They never stop moaning and they can never be paid enough. Fuck em all off and REGULATE private health providers.

Lesser of two evils, perhaps.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 09:07:26 PM
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.
Your response is that 129,000 people died because they didn't get hip replacements. Behave.
Yes, there will be an impact of this. But bullshit is that the cause of this many extra deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 09:09:34 PM
The lockdown itself is causing excess deaths, as Thork pointed out.
As Thork asserted without evidence.

Quote
They are being mis-attributed to Covid
No they aren't

Quote
because it's a highly transmissible harmless disease

No

Quote
(or as harmful as the flu)

No.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 09:23:24 PM
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.
Your response is that 129,000 people died because they didn't get hip replacements. Behave.
Yes, there will be an impact of this. But bullshit is that the cause of this many extra deaths.
Don't you tell me to behave!  >o<

You are asking about just 129,000 deaths.
Quote from: https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/pressure-points-in-the-nhs
The BMA estimates that, between April 2020 and May 2021, there were:

3.63 million fewer elective procedures
23.67 million fewer outpatient attendances.
I'm suggesting that of the 3.63 million procedures cancelled, 3.5% of them might have been important enough have killed people. Or of the 23.67 million outpatient visits, maybe some of them would have detected something more serious and saved a life or tens of thousands of them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 09:31:27 PM
I'm suggesting that of the 3.63 million procedures cancelled, 3.5% of them might have been important enough have killed people.
That's not what elective surgery means.

Quote
Or of the 23.67 million outpatient visits, maybe some of them would have detected something more serious and saved a life or tens of thousands of them.
Right. And this I agree with. And that will definitely have an impact. I just don't buy that it would have had the immediate impact we saw last winter - as I've said on here, I recently spoke to an ICU Doctor. His hospital was choc full over the winter and he was routinely having to tell families bad news in a way he's never had to before. To act like nothing was going on last winter is not a reasonable position.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 09:38:12 PM
I recently spoke to an ICU Doctor. His hospital was choc full over the winter and he was routinely having to tell families bad news in a way he's never had to before. To act like nothing was going on last winter is not a reasonable position.
The man is telling you lies. There is no way he has never had to give out so much bad news.

(https://www.bmj.com/sites/default/files/sites/defautl/files/attachments/bmj-article/2021/04/appleby_uk_death_rate.jpg)

It is a tiny surge, and one that is equalled by anyone practising for more than 12 years. He has a what 5% uplift on normal deaths? That's not "in a way he's never had to before". That's another fucking doctor trying to martyr himself. I really think the NHS draws in a certain kind of wanker. Those who want never ending thanks and to be constantly recognised as better and more important than everyone else. That doctor is an outright liar. And 2020 has shown most people in healthcare seem to be similarly self-absorbed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 27, 2021, 09:48:25 PM
Ok but 365,000 x 3/4 is still around  267,000 deaths from covid, per Tom's source
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 10:04:22 PM
He has a what 5% uplift on normal deaths?
No. The rate over the winter was 30% above average at its peak.
You are comparing the death rate over the course of a year with an extreme peak over a winter.
As your graph shows, and here's one going back 30 years, the peaks of deaths last year bucked a 30 year falling trend of death rates:

(https://i.ibb.co/0GsjqjS/Death-Rates-UK.jpg)

And that is just 2020 data, many of the deaths over the winter were in 2021 so this year will most likely show a similar rise above the average and otherwise falling trend. Just pretending it's a fuss about nothing flies in the face of the data.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 10:05:41 PM
General increase in deaths:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

Quote
A study analyzing US mortality in March-July 2020 reported a 20% increase in excess deaths, only partly explained by COVID-19.

Plus misreporting of Covid Deaths:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

= FRAUD

We get plenty of asymptomatic or otherwise harmless diseases in us. There is no reason to start changing the way deaths are reported. In years past they did not attribute motorcycle deaths to the flu if someone had asymptomatic flu in their system.

If you can't argue with consistent data and methods, it's a worthless argument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 10:09:26 PM
He has a what 5% uplift on normal deaths?
No. The rate over the winter was 30% above average at its peak.
You are comparing the death rate over the course of a year with an extreme peak over a winter.
As your graph shows, and here's one going back 30 years, the peaks of deaths last year bucked a 30 year falling trend of death rates:

(https://i.ibb.co/0GsjqjS/Death-Rates-UK.jpg)

And that is just 2020 data, many of the deaths over the winter were in 2021 so this year will most likely show a similar rise above the average and otherwise falling trend. Just pretending it's a fuss about nothing flies in the face of the data.
Your graph shows exactly what mine shows.

That deaths have been falling for years and that this is a small uptick. Where do you get 30% from? I'm looking at the graph YOU provided. I see 5-10% max. There is no legend on the graph. What do the numbers on the left even mean? 1000 deaths? Is it even for the UK? Is it about deaths or sales of hot tubs during the pandemic.

A small reversal in a trend is hardly world ending stuff. And your doctor friend sounds like he and his ilk are milking it for all its worth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 27, 2021, 10:22:52 PM
That deaths have been falling for years and that this is a small uptick. Where do you get 30% from? I'm looking at the graph YOU provided.
I get it from the first graph I presented. This is the week by week mortality compared with the average:

(https://i.ibb.co/XY4sv4F/Excess-Deaths-Feb2021.jpg)

My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.
I'd suggest that's hardly a "nothing to see here" scenario.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 27, 2021, 10:28:29 PM
My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.
I'd suggest that's hardly a "nothing to see here" scenario.
But how do I know it is covid and not the other things we mentioned? Because covid has been 'mentioned' on their death certificate?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 10:31:51 PM
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.

Did you show that there was not a general increase in deaths and that Covid cases are not being misreported? No. You didn't even bother to address those arguments. You just keep posting your graph and repeating the same trash.

Another article on it:

https://www.kxl.com/study-shows-increase-in-non-covid-deaths-during-pandemic/

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People were afraid of going to the hospital = Excess deaths.

Reporting Motorcycle Accidents and any death with Covid as a Covid Death = FRAUD
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 28, 2021, 08:10:58 AM
My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.
I'd suggest that's hardly a "nothing to see here" scenario.
But how do I know it is covid and not the other things we mentioned? Because covid has been 'mentioned' on their death certificate?

The number of cases over the winter was correlated with hospitalisations due to Covid which was correlated with deaths:

(https://i.ibb.co/RySTYdY/Covid-Stats-Jan2021.png)

Note the slight delay - a rise in cases led to a rise in hospitalisations a bit later which then led to deaths.
Famously, correlation does not imply causation but I'd suggest this is pretty good evidence that Covid was the main factor.
Also, the number of Covid deaths correlates quite closely with the numbers of excess deaths.

Early in the pandemic the deaths from Covid were certainly being over-reported - someone would be marked as a Covid death if they died and had had a positive test at any previous point.
That was obviously silly and even they admitted that in the end and adjusted it to 28 days. So sure, someone could have had a positive Covid test and then within 4 weeks had a motorcycle accident but I'd suggest that is statistically rare. There will certainly be cases where someone old and vulnerable had all kinds of things wrong with them, caught Covid and that would have been recorded as a factor in their death. The reality of course is that they would have died anyway, Covid might have helped to kick them out the door a bit sooner. But it's pretty hard to argue that Covid has not been a factor in a lot of these deaths.

The other things you mentioned are a lot of cancelled elective surgeries. And sure, that will have caused people a lot of problems, but they're elective for a reason - generally you're not going to die if you don't have the surgery. I know two people who had heart surgery last year. In both cases it was urgent so they did it quickly. The lack of appointments and treatments will cause people both discomfort and will almost certainly lead to excess deaths over the next few years, but it's pretty unlikely to have led to that many excess deaths so quickly. And it's surely too much of a coincidence that the excess deaths happened over the winter when respiratory diseases are at their peak.

TL;DR - Covid has clearly killed a lot of people. Were lockdowns the right thing to do? Probably not - or certainly not the way we did them. Was it worth all the long term consequences that lockdowns will cause both economically and in terms of people's physical and mental health - again, probably not. But this was clearly a situation which demanded a response.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 10:38:27 AM
But this was clearly a situation which demanded a response.
Yes, the proper response would have been to not count a death as a covid death just because of the presence of covid and for all of the morons to shutter themselves in their own homes of their own free will and accord.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 11:33:11 AM
Action “Public Health Expert” 69

Obviously analyzing any decision with 20/20 hindsight is idiotic, especially with the chaos in NYC in the first months. Remember, there were mass graves being dug there and ICUs that were taxed way beyond capacity.

Hopefully, the actual experts will learn from this and develop improved policies and responses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 11:35:56 AM
Action “Public Health Expert” 69

Obviously analyzing any decision with 20/20 hindsight is idiotic, especially with the chaos in NYC in the first months. Remember, there were mass graves being dug there and ICUs that were taxed way beyond capacity.

Hopefully, the actual experts will learn from this and develop improved policies and responses.
Why don't you tell us all why the "mass graves," were being dug and for how long that process has been in place?

Jesus, you too, another one of the foisters of the lie.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 11:40:54 AM
Action “Public Health Expert” 69

Obviously analyzing any decision with 20/20 hindsight is idiotic, especially with the chaos in NYC in the first months. Remember, there were mass graves being dug there and ICUs that were taxed way beyond capacity.

Hopefully, the actual experts will learn from this and develop improved policies and responses.
Why don't you tell us all why the "mass graves," were being dug and for how long that process has been in place?

Jesus, you too, another one of the foisters of the lie.

Well, Lackey, graves are dug so that dead bodies can be deposited underground. In this case, “mass” doesn’t refer to the amount of matter measured in kilograms (stop me if it gets too technical for you) but rather because the grave is meant to contain a multitude of corpses.

If you wish to learn more about how long humans have been burying humans en masse (that’s French, sorry if that’s too much), I suggest browsing this page (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_grave) for a quick primer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 11:54:38 AM
Well,  graves are dug so that dead bodies can be deposited underground. In this case, “mass” doesn’t refer to the amount of matter measured in kilograms (stop me if it gets too technical for you) but rather because the grave is meant to contain a multitude of corpses.

If you wish to learn more about how long humans have been burying humans en masse (that’s French, sorry if that’s too much), I suggest browsing this page (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_grave) for a quick primer.
^Brings up the subject about Mass Graves in New York.

Asked to provide the real reason of what said mass grave was actually for (Nothing to do with Covid, by the way).

Provides the above response instead.

Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners.

ICU's were not over capacity.

It was the internet bots reporting overcapacity that were actively at work.
 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Well,  graves are dug so that dead bodies can be deposited underground. In this case, “mass” doesn’t refer to the amount of matter measured in kilograms (stop me if it gets too technical for you) but rather because the grave is meant to contain a multitude of corpses.

If you wish to learn more about how long humans have been burying humans en masse (that’s French, sorry if that’s too much), I suggest browsing this page (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_grave) for a quick primer.
^Brings up the subject about Mass Graves in New York.

Asked to provide the real reason of what said mass grave was actually for (Nothing to do with Covid, by the way).

Provides the above response instead.

Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners.

ICU's were not over capacity.

It was the internet bots reporting overcapacity that were actively at work.

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 28, 2021, 12:49:53 PM
Well,  graves are dug so that dead bodies can be deposited underground. In this case, “mass” doesn’t refer to the amount of matter measured in kilograms (stop me if it gets too technical for you) but rather because the grave is meant to contain a multitude of corpses.

If you wish to learn more about how long humans have been burying humans en masse (that’s French, sorry if that’s too much), I suggest browsing this page (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_grave) for a quick primer.
^Brings up the subject about Mass Graves in New York.

Asked to provide the real reason of what said mass grave was actually for (Nothing to do with Covid, by the way).

Provides the above response instead.

Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners.

ICU's were not over capacity.

It was the internet bots reporting overcapacity that were actively at work.

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?

I was just about to ask the same thing. Jesus, imagine being so easily manipulated that you don't believe anything the "MSM" says and immediately write it off as Fake News, but you believe any ridiculous conspiracy you see sputtered by Mike Lindell or Newsmax. It's just weird that so many people can be programmed like Lackey to believe exactly what these people want them to believe, and nothing else.

You almost have to be in awe of their puppet master abilities.

Keep dancing for them, monkey! Dance!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 01:07:11 PM

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?
What outlandish claim?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 28, 2021, 01:10:14 PM

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?
What outlandish claim?

"Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners." (implying they weren't for COVID victims)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 28, 2021, 01:38:45 PM
Didnt you hear? Democrat governors, prepping for the Green New Deal, started killing off prisoners so there would be less CO2 emissions. That's why they staged the Jan 6 Capitol riot and framed republicans, so that they can then fill jails with Trump supporters in advance of the next purge. /s

Back it up or shut it up A80?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 01:58:16 PM

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?
What outlandish claim?

"Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners." (implying they weren't for COVID victims)
The mass grave story in New York was manufactured by MSM.

The photo accompanying that story was of the back of a semi trailer which was at the grave site and was taken in the late 1990's, at the grave site designed to service Riker's Island.

No mass graves were dug for Covid victims in New York.
Stupid, inane trump bs.
Aren't you lost, little boy?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 28, 2021, 02:06:14 PM

Aren't you lost, little boy?

You're the one who went off looking for a source but found nothing except more rambling, unsupported nonsense. It's ok though, no one is holding their breath waiting for you to back up your arguments... ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 28, 2021, 02:45:36 PM

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?
What outlandish claim?

"Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners." (implying they weren't for COVID victims)
The mass grave story in New York was manufactured by MSM.

The photo accompanying that story was of the back of a semi trailer which was at the grave site and was taken in the late 1990's, at the grave site designed to service Riker's Island.

No mass graves were dug for Covid victims in New York.


Yes, this is the outlandish claim. Rama didn't ask for clarification, or more detail, he asked for evidence. Do you have it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 03:52:12 PM

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim?
What outlandish claim?

"Those mass graves were for incarcerated prisoners." (implying they weren't for COVID victims)
The mass grave story in New York was manufactured by MSM.

The photo accompanying that story was of the back of a semi trailer which was at the grave site and was taken in the late 1990's, at the grave site designed to service Riker's Island.

No mass graves were dug for Covid victims in New York.


Yes, this is the outlandish claim. Rama didn't ask for clarification, or more detail, he asked for evidence. Do you have it?
The outlandish claim was made by MSM when they published the photo of the semi-trailer and body bags, making an attempt to state the picture depicted mass grave burials made for Covid victims.

The story of mass graves in New York due to Covid victims is false.

It was debunked then and it remains debunked.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 03:54:10 PM
So no evidence. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 03:59:39 PM
So no evidence. Thanks for clarifying.
There is no evidence of mass graves for Covid victims in New York.

"The mayor stressed that even the most recent burials on the island are not necessarily always related to the pandemic."

Those graves were for prisoners and unclaimed bodies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 04:17:54 PM
So no evidence. Thanks for clarifying.
There is no evidence of mass graves for Covid victims in New York.

"The mayor stressed that even the most recent burials on the island are not necessarily always related to the pandemic."

Those graves were for prisoners and unclaimed bodies.

Those graves saw a fivefold increase in burials in the months after the pandemic started. Surely. SURELY a coincidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 28, 2021, 04:22:52 PM
So no evidence. Thanks for clarifying.
There is no evidence of mass graves for Covid victims in New York.

"The mayor stressed that even the most recent burials on the island are not necessarily always related to the pandemic."

Those graves were for prisoners and unclaimed bodies.

Those graves saw a fivefold increase in burials in the months after the pandemic started. Surely. SURELY a coincidence.

No, it's not.

https://www.kxl.com/study-shows-increase-in-non-covid-deaths-during-pandemic/

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People were afraid of going to the hospital = Excess deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 04:40:38 PM
Tom, if you are just going to repost the same stuff without following the conversation, perhaps you should refrain from posting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 28, 2021, 04:42:11 PM
Tom, if you are just going to repost the same stuff without following the conversation, perhaps you should refrain from posting.

Wrong. If you're not going to bother addressing this you need to just stop posting about the 'increased death counts'.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 04:43:25 PM
So no evidence. Thanks for clarifying.
There is no evidence of mass graves for Covid victims in New York.

"The mayor stressed that even the most recent burials on the island are not necessarily always related to the pandemic."

Those graves were for prisoners and unclaimed bodies.

Those graves saw a fivefold increase in burials in the months after the pandemic started. Surely. SURELY a coincidence.
Number One - Just like MSM, you are implying the graves were dug to bury those who died of Covid. They were not graves dug to bury people who died of Covid.

Two, the gravesite where the unclaimed dead are buried is on Hart Island. It has been in use for over 150 years.

Three, a fivefold increase = what specific number?

Go ahead, clearly and legibly type that number here and shock the bejesus out of everybody reading the thread.

I dare you. Write that number for all to see.

Betcha can't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 28, 2021, 04:48:09 PM
Can I see the photo of these mass graves and how you know they are from the 90s?
I don't get MSM here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on July 28, 2021, 04:55:37 PM
People were afraid of going to the hospital = Excess deaths.
Can you show the statistics around how many excess deaths this resulted in from other causes? Thanks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 04:59:15 PM
So no evidence. Thanks for clarifying.
There is no evidence of mass graves for Covid victims in New York.

"The mayor stressed that even the most recent burials on the island are not necessarily always related to the pandemic."

Those graves were for prisoners and unclaimed bodies.

Those graves saw a fivefold increase in burials in the months after the pandemic started. Surely. SURELY a coincidence.
Number One - Just like MSM, you are implying the graves were dug to bury those who died of Covid. They were not graves dug to bury people who died of Covid.

Two, the gravesite where the unclaimed dead are buried is on Hart Island. It has been in use for over 150 years.

Three, a fivefold increase = what specific number?

Go ahead, clearly and legibly type that number here and shock the bejesus out of everybody reading the thread.

I dare you. Write that number for all to see.

Betcha can't.

25 burials/week to 120/week during the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hart-island-mass-graves-coronavirus-new-york/2020/04/16/a0c413ee-7f5f-11ea-a3ee-13e1ae0a3571_story.html

Apology accepted.

Tom, if you are just going to repost the same stuff without following the conversation, perhaps you should refrain from posting.

Wrong. If you're not going to bother addressing this you need to just stop posting about the 'increased death counts'.

In this very thread AATW showed excess death increases and how they correspond with increases in coronavirus infections. Perhaps you need to follow along more carefully because you look to be having comprehension issues.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 28, 2021, 05:03:40 PM
You're a good puppet, lackey. You're doing exactly what they tell you to do. Repeating their lies without putting any critical thought into them; considering fringe sources who present no evidence for their claims as gospel, while simultaneously doing their bidding and repeating the mantra that the MSM always lies, just like they want you to do. And all with a straight face; you don't even see the irony. Dance for them some more!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 28, 2021, 05:04:47 PM
In this very thread AATW showed excess death increases and how they correspond with increases in coronavirus infections. Perhaps you need to follow along more carefully because you look to be having comprehension issues.

And those Covid-death numbers are inflated, as pointed out by Action80 and myself:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

Did they count people who died in a motorcycle accident with asymptomatic or symptomatic flu as a flu death in years previous?

No. They did not. They have adopted a special and new way to count deaths for this. Same in other countries. (https://theconversation.com/died-from-or-died-with-covid-19-we-need-a-transparent-approach-to-counting-coronavirus-deaths-145438) And here you are parroting the manipulated data and media hype.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 28, 2021, 05:13:20 PM
Tom, I'm sorry if you feel left out because I'm heaping so much praise on lackey for being a good, loyal puppet. You're doing a smashing job too. I understand that you're a troll who likely believes little to nothing of the BS he spews, but you are nonetheless one of their most loyal soldiers, gleefully spreading their misinformation. You're a great puppet too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 28, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
https://time.com/5913151/hart-island-covid/

This was a nice article.
I can see the details Lackey has, just twisted.  Like saying the mass graves are prisoners when it used to be prisoners who dug them, until Covid.
Where not everyone who died of covid went to mass gaves: true!  They threw people there regardless of cause of death due to having no room at the morgues.  But also because Hart Island has been used as a Potter's Field for over 150 years.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 05:44:21 PM
In this very thread AATW showed excess death increases and how they correspond with increases in coronavirus infections. Perhaps you need to follow along more carefully because you look to be having comprehension issues.

And those Covid-death numbers are inflated, as pointed out by Action80 and myself:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

Did they count people who died in a motorcycle accident with asymptomatic or symptomatic flu as a flu death in years previous?

No. They did not. They have adopted a special and new way to count deaths for this. Same in other countries. (https://theconversation.com/died-from-or-died-with-covid-19-we-need-a-transparent-approach-to-counting-coronavirus-deaths-145438) And here you are parroting the manipulated data and media hype.

Can you please quote me as saying that COVID numbers were completely accurate? I’ll wait.

Meanwhile you are making broad generalization like this:

Quote
People were afraid of going to the hospital = Excess deaths.

Seems you care more about winning internet points than the truth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 28, 2021, 05:51:05 PM


25 burials/week to 120/week during the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hart-island-mass-graves-coronavirus-new-york/2020/04/16/a0c413ee-7f5f-11ea-a3ee-13e1ae0a3571_story.html

Apology accepted.
Apology declined and rejected.

Posting a high number compared to an average (growing from an average of 25 per week to 120 at its highest) like the Washington POS newspaper did, and like you are trying to foist as legitimate, doesn't cut the mustard and is typical of the shitbag style of argumentation you normally engage in.

2,334 were buried there in 2020, compared to 846 the prior year.

I don't know how 846 times 5 = 2334, but I am positive your excellent math skills can clue everyone in as to how to do it.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 28, 2021, 07:55:00 PM


25 burials/week to 120/week during the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hart-island-mass-graves-coronavirus-new-york/2020/04/16/a0c413ee-7f5f-11ea-a3ee-13e1ae0a3571_story.html

Apology accepted.
Apology declined and rejected.

Posting a high number compared to an average (growing from an average of 25 per week to 120 at its highest) like the Washington POS newspaper did, and like you are trying to foist as legitimate, doesn't cut the mustard and is typical of the shitbag style of argumentation you normally engage in.

2,334 were buried there in 2020, compared to 846 the prior year.

I don't know how 846 times 5 = 2334, but I am positive your excellent math skills can clue everyone in as to how to do it.

This was during the outbreak in NYC, as I said.  The numbers you cite are entirely consistent with a massive outbreak that subsequently tapers off.  That one short period caused the number to triple from the prior year, you conveniently ignore that.  It's too bad you have to engage in a host of bad faith fallacies to try and squeeze your narrative in to a box you find palatable. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 28, 2021, 08:17:38 PM


25 burials/week to 120/week during the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hart-island-mass-graves-coronavirus-new-york/2020/04/16/a0c413ee-7f5f-11ea-a3ee-13e1ae0a3571_story.html

Apology accepted.
Apology declined and rejected.

Posting a high number compared to an average (growing from an average of 25 per week to 120 at its highest) like the Washington POS newspaper did, and like you are trying to foist as legitimate, doesn't cut the mustard and is typical of the shitbag style of argumentation you normally engage in.

2,334 were buried there in 2020, compared to 846 the prior year.

I don't know how 846 times 5 = 2334, but I am positive your excellent math skills can clue everyone in as to how to do it.
But.... those 2,334 were not all Covid victims.  They were just dead people.  At one point, they just needed to get any dead person in the ground as they had too many.  Morgues were full.  Trucks were full.  The offices that track random dead people to find out who they were and next of kin was overworked.

So why would you try to compare the number buried on Hart island to covid escelation?  While the two have a correlation, its not a direct one as some family claimed bodies quickly or they died in other parts of the state or what-have you. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 29, 2021, 09:33:56 AM
Oh and got my first poke.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 29, 2021, 10:11:30 AM


25 burials/week to 120/week during the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hart-island-mass-graves-coronavirus-new-york/2020/04/16/a0c413ee-7f5f-11ea-a3ee-13e1ae0a3571_story.html

Apology accepted.
Apology declined and rejected.

Posting a high number compared to an average (growing from an average of 25 per week to 120 at its highest) like the Washington POS newspaper did, and like you are trying to foist as legitimate, doesn't cut the mustard and is typical of the shitbag style of argumentation you normally engage in.

2,334 were buried there in 2020, compared to 846 the prior year.

I don't know how 846 times 5 = 2334, but I am positive your excellent math skills can clue everyone in as to how to do it.

This was during the outbreak in NYC, as I said.  The numbers you cite are entirely consistent with a massive outbreak that subsequently tapers off.  That one short period caused the number to triple from the prior year, you conveniently ignore that.  It's too bad you have to engage in a host of bad faith fallacies to try and squeeze your narrative in to a box you find palatable.
Who was the one who stated it increased five-fold?

The only palatable boxes being offered up (and how you find twisting numbers to be palatable, I have no clue, but it is your typical BS way, so you must love it) is by you.

You can continue with your BS, but do not be surprised when you are called out for it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 29, 2021, 10:16:21 AM

But.... those 2,334 were not all Covid victims.  They were just dead people.  At one point, they just needed to get any dead person in the ground as they had too many.  Morgues were full.  Trucks were full.  The offices that track random dead people to find out who they were and next of kin was overworked.

So why would you try to compare the number buried on Hart island to covid escelation?  While the two have a correlation, its not a direct one as some family claimed bodies quickly or they died in other parts of the state or what-have you.
Look to your bosom pal Rama as to why he offered it up.

It seems you disagree with him.

Rama started out by using only the words, mass graves," implying they were all covid deaths.

And the "multitude," of dead bodies you claim here is just more sensationalistic opining

Hart Island is where New York buries its unclaimed dead.

Would not surprise me in the least to find out that many of those buried went unclaimed last year on purpose due to the economy being shut down. Funerals are very expensive and people probably just kept their mouth shut.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 29, 2021, 10:37:07 AM


25 burials/week to 120/week during the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hart-island-mass-graves-coronavirus-new-york/2020/04/16/a0c413ee-7f5f-11ea-a3ee-13e1ae0a3571_story.html

Apology accepted.
Apology declined and rejected.

Posting a high number compared to an average (growing from an average of 25 per week to 120 at its highest) like the Washington POS newspaper did, and like you are trying to foist as legitimate, doesn't cut the mustard and is typical of the shitbag style of argumentation you normally engage in.

2,334 were buried there in 2020, compared to 846 the prior year.

I don't know how 846 times 5 = 2334, but I am positive your excellent math skills can clue everyone in as to how to do it.

This was during the outbreak in NYC, as I said.  The numbers you cite are entirely consistent with a massive outbreak that subsequently tapers off.  That one short period caused the number to triple from the prior year, you conveniently ignore that.  It's too bad you have to engage in a host of bad faith fallacies to try and squeeze your narrative in to a box you find palatable.
Who was the one who stated it increased five-fold?

The only palatable boxes being offered up (and how you find twisting numbers to be palatable, I have no clue, but it is your typical BS way, so you must love it) is by you.

You can continue with your BS, but do not be surprised when you are called out for it.

During the outbreak in NYC there was a fivefold increase.  I provided a source too. You decided to impose a different time frame than what I referred to on the conversation. That’s pretty dishonest. Can’t you just accept that there was a serious uptick in deaths in the opening months of the pandemic in NYC?  Why is that so difficult?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 29, 2021, 10:51:12 AM

Rama started out by using only the words, mass graves," implying they were all covid deaths.

I implied nothing of the sort. I was implying there was a massive increase in people dying in NYC which coincided with the first, unexpected wave of COVID hospitalizations. Of course all those bodies weren’t from COVID, only an idiot would think that. But a bunch of them were.

Quote
And the "multitude," of dead bodies you claim here is just more sensationalistic opining

The funeral homes and morgues were so overwhelmed by the influx of dead bodies, that FEMA brought in refrigerator trucks to store the dead. It’s more than just sensationalism, in the opening months in NYC a lot of people died. A massive increase in deaths that coincided with the massive surge of COVID cases. The doctors and nurses have us the daily reports and none of them mentioned “another person dying from lack of elective surgery”.

Quote
Hart Island is where New York buries its unclaimed dead.

Would not surprise me in the least to find out that many of those buried went unclaimed last year on purpose due to the economy being shut down. Funerals are very expensive and people probably just kept their mouth shut.

A fascinating hypothesis. Please bring our attention back to it when you have evidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 29, 2021, 11:15:34 AM

But.... those 2,334 were not all Covid victims.  They were just dead people.  At one point, they just needed to get any dead person in the ground as they had too many.  Morgues were full.  Trucks were full.  The offices that track random dead people to find out who they were and next of kin was overworked.

So why would you try to compare the number buried on Hart island to covid escelation?  While the two have a correlation, its not a direct one as some family claimed bodies quickly or they died in other parts of the state or what-have you.
Look to your bosom pal Rama as to why he offered it up.

It seems you disagree with him.

Rama started out by using only the words, mass graves," implying they were all covid deaths.

And the "multitude," of dead bodies you claim here is just more sensationalistic opining

Hart Island is where New York buries its unclaimed dead.

Would not surprise me in the least to find out that many of those buried went unclaimed last year on purpose due to the economy being shut down. Funerals are very expensive and people probably just kept their mouth shut.

Yes, it is where they bury the unclaimed dead.
But when the morgues piled up and you can't find next of kin fast enough, well...thry go in a mass grave on Hart island.  Until claimed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 29, 2021, 11:51:31 AM
During the outbreak in NYC there was a fivefold increase.
No, there wasn't. 
I provided a source too.
You provided dishonest journalism, which is your favorite source of course.
You decided to impose a different time frame than what I referred to on the conversation.
You never mentioned any time frame during the initial claim you made regarding a five-fold increase because you knew the comparison of the average of several weeks worth of numbers to a single weekly high is a bullshit method of statistical reporting.
That’s I'm pretty and very dishonest.
Fixed that for you.
Can’t you just accept that there was a serious uptick in deaths in the opening months of the pandemic in NYC?  Why is that so difficult?
Because, as shown here, the methods of accounting for deaths is both dishonest and patently wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 29, 2021, 11:55:28 AM

Rama started out by using only the words, mass graves," implying they were all covid deaths.

I implied nothing of the sort. I was implying there was a massive increase in people dying in NYC which coincided with the first, unexpected wave of COVID hospitalizations. Of course all those bodies weren’t from COVID, only an idiot would think that. But a bunch of them were.
Yeah, you did. Any person reading what you write concerning this subject would be impressed as to that being  your meaning.
And the "multitude," of dead bodies you claim here is just more sensationalistic opining.
The funeral homes and morgues were so overwhelmed by the influx of dead bodies, that FEMA brought in refrigerator trucks to store the dead. It’s more than just sensationalism, in the opening months in NYC a lot of people died. A massive increase in deaths that coincided with the massive surge of COVID cases. The doctors and nurses have us the daily reports and none of them mentioned “another person dying from lack of elective surgery”.

Just as they brought in a 1500 bed medical ship to dock in the Harbor and didn't use it.

More theatrics.

Doctors and nurses, working for "for profit," hospitals, will ensure the influx of federal money to their corporate overlords, by promoting the COVID death toll to ever higher numbers, ensuring a healthy bottom line.

Your trolling efforts here are weak and ineffective.

Quote
Hart Island is where New York buries its unclaimed dead.

Would not surprise me in the least to find out that many of those buried went unclaimed last year on purpose due to the economy being shut down. Funerals are very expensive and people probably just kept their mouth shut.

A fascinating hypothesis. Please bring our attention back to it when you have evidence.
When you cannot afford to bury the dead, a potter's grave is the place.

Only a troll would demand evidence for this commonly known fact.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 29, 2021, 01:00:12 PM
See how lackey refuses to even provide a source for his ridiculous claims, much less evidence? It's because he doesn't want to reveal that I'm right, that he's just repeating what he hears on fringe conservative media, and being a loyal dittohead (a word invented by Rush Limbaugh to celebrate the fact that his followers were all mindless puppets). I'm sure he'd like to provide evidence for his outlandish claims, and I wouldn't doubt that he's actually looked for it in some cases, but unfortunately you can't provide what doesn't actually exist. But he keeps pushing those narratives anyway, because they happen to fit his narrow point of view, who cares about evidence? He's being such a good puppet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 29, 2021, 01:16:51 PM
No, there wasn't.

The classic “nuh-uh!”  My son gets me with that all the time.   

Quote
You provided dishonest journalism, which is your favorite source of course.
You disliking what they report is not the same as dishonesty.

Quote
You never mentioned any time frame during the initial claim you made regarding a five-fold increase because you knew the comparison of the average of several weeks worth of numbers to a single weekly high is a bullshit method of statistical reporting.

I absolutely did mention a timeline (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17611.msg243781#msg243781). Once again letting your feelings cloud your judgement.

Quote
That’s I'm pretty and very dishonest.
Fixed that for you.

I’m flattered that you think I’m pretty, but I’ve already withdrawn consent to be involved in your kink. Please stop.

Quote
Can’t you just accept that there was a serious uptick in deaths in the opening months of the pandemic in NYC?  Why is that so difficult?
Because, as shown here, the methods of accounting for deaths is both dishonest and patently wrong.

I’ve never said those numbers were completely accurate, however it’s undeniable by reasonable people that there was a huge surge in deaths that correlated with a huge surge of COVID cases. I suppose your narrative of blaming the world for your personal tragedy requires this to be false and that’s just heaping tragedy on top of tragedy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 30, 2021, 10:18:29 AM
No, there wasn't.

The classic “nuh-uh!”  My son gets me with that all the time.
Comparing a running weekly average to a single day statistical outlier  = No, there wasn't.
Quote
You provided dishonest journalism, which is your favorite source of course.
You disliking what they report is not the same as dishonesty.
Pointing out the dishonesty is what I did.
Quote
You never mentioned any time frame during the initial claim you made regarding a five-fold increase because you knew the comparison of the average of several weeks worth of numbers to a single weekly high is a bullshit method of statistical reporting.

I absolutely did mention a timeline (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17611.msg243781#msg243781). Once again letting your feelings cloud your judgement.
The "first months." LOL! As I have demonstrated, no timeline.

As I have demonstrated, a running weekly average compared to a single day statistical outlier is just the typical BS you love.

Quote
That’s I'm pretty and very dishonest.
Fixed that for you.

I’m flattered that you think I’m pretty, but I’ve already withdrawn consent to be involved in your kink. Please stop.
Actually, I was writing what you think of yourself.

My opinion is the exact opposite.

Except the dishonest part, which you are.
Quote
Can’t you just accept that there was a serious uptick in deaths in the opening months of the pandemic in NYC?  Why is that so difficult?
Because, as shown here, the methods of accounting for deaths is both dishonest and patently wrong.

I’ve never said those numbers were completely accurate, however it’s undeniable by reasonable people that there was a huge surge in deaths that correlated with a huge surge of COVID cases. I suppose your narrative of blaming the world for your personal tragedy requires this to be false and that’s just heaping tragedy on top of tragedy.
You, and people like you, are responsible.

I'll never forget or forgive.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 30, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
Now you have switched from talking about an annual time frame to running weekly averages for…. no apparent reason. Combined with your blind rage and desire to simply vent your sadness on me, I will walk away now. Get well.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 30, 2021, 11:54:02 AM
Now you have switched from talking about an annual time frame to running weekly averages for…. no apparent reason. Combined with your blind rage and desire to simply vent your sadness on me, I will walk away now. Get well.
You presented a running weekly average in comparison to a single day statistical outlier in order to justify your claim of a five-fold increase in deaths in NYC. You also used the word, "massive."

One more time. There was no five-fold increase.

MSM lied, and you promulgated it, making you -

A LIAR.

I doubt you will ever walk away from anything, but one can maintain hope.

I will never forgive or forget.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 30, 2021, 01:07:06 PM
Now you have switched from talking about an annual time frame to running weekly averages for…. no apparent reason. Combined with your blind rage and desire to simply vent your sadness on me, I will walk away now. Get well.
You presented a running weekly average in comparison to a single day statistical outlier in order to justify your claim of a five-fold increase in deaths in NYC. You also used the word, "massive."

I'd say "massive" is appropriate...

NYC:
(https://i.imgur.com/B1CPjcR.png)

Hart Island:
(https://i.imgur.com/gehKZBr.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 30, 2021, 01:09:16 PM
Now you have switched from talking about an annual time frame to running weekly averages for…. no apparent reason. Combined with your blind rage and desire to simply vent your sadness on me, I will walk away now. Get well.
You presented a running weekly average in comparison to a single day statistical outlier in order to justify your claim of a five-fold increase in deaths in NYC. You also used the word, "massive."

I'd say "massive" is appropriate...

NYC:
(https://i.imgur.com/B1CPjcR.png)

Hart Island:
(https://i.imgur.com/gehKZBr.png)

Puppets don't let inconvenient things like facts cloud their judgment. They may not even be capable of it, given their inability to think for themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 30, 2021, 01:18:56 PM
Now you have switched from talking about an annual time frame to running weekly averages for…. no apparent reason. Combined with your blind rage and desire to simply vent your sadness on me, I will walk away now. Get well.
You presented a running weekly average in comparison to a single day statistical outlier in order to justify your claim of a five-fold increase in deaths in NYC. You also used the word, "massive."

I'd say "massive" is appropriate...

Yeah. I second that.
^stack doesn't even provide a source for his first chart.

Roundy eats it up like pablum.

You are both promulgating a lie, making both of you LIARS.

I will never forgive nor forget.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 30, 2021, 01:28:54 PM
Now you have switched from talking about an annual time frame to running weekly averages for…. no apparent reason. Combined with your blind rage and desire to simply vent your sadness on me, I will walk away now. Get well.
You presented a running weekly average in comparison to a single day statistical outlier in order to justify your claim of a five-fold increase in deaths in NYC. You also used the word, "massive."

I'd say "massive" is appropriate...

Yeah. I second that.
^stack doesn't even provide a source for his first chart.

Roundy eats it up like pablum.

You are both promulgating a lie, making both of you LIARS.

I will never forgive nor forget.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 30, 2021, 01:54:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html

Did you bother reading your link? It says that there was a general increase in deaths, that weren't attributed to coronavirus.

Which agrees with this:

https://www.kxl.com/study-shows-increase-in-non-covid-deaths-during-pandemic/

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People were afraid of going to the hospital means that there were excess deaths.

The Coronavirus death toll, as we know, is inflated with a new method of counting deaths for this disease:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

Did they count people who died in a motorcycle accident with asymptomatic or symptomatic flu as a flu death in years previous? No. This is an entirely new death counting method.

You guys still are not addressing or accounting for this. You are just repeating "higher death counts" and ignoring that the numbers are inflated and manipulated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 30, 2021, 02:27:45 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html

Did you bother reading your link? It says that there was a general increase in deaths, that weren't attributed to coronavirus.

Yes, I did, 4,200 excess deaths not attributed to Covid:

"As of Sunday, the city had attributed 16,673 deaths to coronavirus, either because people had tested positive for the virus, or because the circumstances of their death meant that city health officials believed the virus to be the most likely cause of death.

But there remains a large gap between the 16,673 figure and the total deaths above typical levels in the last six and a half weeks: more than 4,200 people whose deaths are not captured by the official coronavirus toll.
"

And those excess deaths could be attributed to uncounted Covid cases and/or, like you said, "People were afraid of going to the hospital". Or maybe people were even turned away from medical care because the system was overwhelmed by Covid.

You guys still are not addressing or accounting for this. You are just repeating "higher death counts" and ignoring that the numbers are inflated and manipulated.

Are you saying that there is wide-scale fraud where the attending physicians who complete death certificates are falsifying the documents all across the country, around the globe?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 30, 2021, 02:46:21 PM
Quote
Are you saying that there is wide-scale fraud where the attending physicians who complete death certificates are falsifying the documents all across the country, around the globe?

They're just doing what they are told to do.

The same death counting tactic is happening in Australia too: https://theconversation.com/died-from-or-died-with-covid-19-we-need-a-transparent-approach-to-counting-coronavirus-deaths-145438

Why adopt an entirely new death counting method for this disease if not to pump up the numbers for media hype? If they really and honestly changed the method to "track community spread" they would clearly disclaim that the death toll numbers are inaccurate as compared to other diseases and out of line to how deaths have been tracked in the past and seek to provide a realistic estimate. Rather, the inflated numbers are being used to spread fear.

I find that it is more likely that this is being done for a dishonest reason by the world authorities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 30, 2021, 02:54:19 PM
"Former Trump official says 'just a matter of time' before unvaccinated get delta variant | TheHill" https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/565595-former-trump-official-says-just-a-matter-of-time-before-unvaccinated-get?amp

I feel like this is kinda a good thing? If this thing rips through the puppets who think they're standing up for their rights by endangering society fast enough, maybe we'll achieve some level of herd immunity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 30, 2021, 03:10:13 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html

Did you bother reading your link? It says that there was a general increase in deaths, that weren't attributed to coronavirus.

Yes, I did, 4,200 excess deaths not attributed to Covid:

"As of Sunday, the city had attributed 16,673 deaths to coronavirus, either because people had tested positive for the virus, or because the circumstances of their death meant that city health officials believed the virus to be the most likely cause of death.

But there remains a large gap between the 16,673 figure and the total deaths above typical levels in the last six and a half weeks: more than 4,200 people whose deaths are not captured by the official coronavirus toll.
"

And those excess deaths could be attributed to uncounted Covid cases and/or, like you said, "People were afraid of going to the hospital". Or maybe people were even turned away from medical care because the system was overwhelmed by Covid.

You guys still are not addressing or accounting for this. You are just repeating "higher death counts" and ignoring that the numbers are inflated and manipulated.

Are you saying that there is wide-scale fraud where the attending physicians who complete death certificates are falsifying the documents all across the country, around the globe?

Yes.
Every country, even North Korea, is making false death claims.

And every medical examiner is in on it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 30, 2021, 03:39:30 PM
Quote
Are you saying that there is wide-scale fraud where the attending physicians who complete death certificates are falsifying the documents all across the country, around the globe?

They're just doing what they are told to do.

The same death counting tactic is happening in Australia too: https://theconversation.com/died-from-or-died-with-covid-19-we-need-a-transparent-approach-to-counting-coronavirus-deaths-145438

Why adopt an entirely new death counting method for this disease if not to pump up the numbers for media hype? If they really and honestly changed the method to "track community spread" they would clearly disclaim that the death toll numbers are inaccurate as compared to other diseases and out of line to how deaths have been tracked in the past and seek to provide a realistic estimate. Rather, the inflated numbers are being used to spread fear.

I'm having a hard time finding where we have country-wide/globally "adopt(ed) an entirely new death counting method for this disease."

It generally kind of works like this:

ORLANDO, Fla. – The Medical Examiner for Orange and Osceola counties, Dr. Joshua Stephany, regarding your motorcycle analogy:

We did have a motorcycle accident. The person died of a trauma, and they just happen to have COVID. We did not attribute COVID to the cause of death in that case because it didn’t contribute to that case,” he said. “Clearly that person died with COVID and not of COVID.

VS

We had another traffic accident -- or a motorcycle accident -- where the person was subsequently hospitalized for a long period of time, got pneumonia. It happened to be COVID pneumonia, and they died,” he said. “In that case, we did contribute it to COVID pneumonia.
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/08/05/medical-examiner-responds-to-questions-about-floridas-coronavirus-death-numbers/

As you can imagine there's a whole process/procedure attending physicians, ME's, etc go through in determining cause of death and documenting it on death certificates. Some States have slightly different ways of doing it, but basically, if you have other stuff going on, stuff that may eventually kill you, and you test positive for Covid, and Covid accelerates that stuff and kills you, then yeah, that's Covid death. Seems reasonable. And the same procedure is followed for the Flu and other viruses, ailments. If you test positive for the Flu and it accelerates your death, then that too shows up on the death cert and is counted as a Flu death.

Additionally, all States have to feed their death certs into the CDC system that standardizes all of the certs from across the country using something called the "International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10)". And then the CDC reports out from there regarding the mortality rates of all diseases.

I find that it is more likely that this is being done for a dishonest reason by the world authorities.

Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 30, 2021, 06:09:42 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

At Tuesday's White House coronavirus press conference, task force member Dr. Deborah Birx said that while some countries are reporting coronavirus fatality numbers differently, in the U.S. you are counted as a victim of the pandemic if you die while testing positive for the virus, even if something else causes your death.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX: "So, I think in this country we've taken a very liberal approach to mortality. And I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn't testing in January and February that's a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem some countries are recording as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we are still recording it and we will I mean the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to market as COVID-19 infection the intent is right now that those if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

Illinois Department of Public Health said they count the same way:

https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

Quote
IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified

Still, the department's Director, Dr. Ngozi Ezike used part of her time during Sunday's health briefing to explain how the department determines if a death is related to Coronavirus.

Essentially, Dr. Ezike explained that anyone who passes away after testing positive for the virus is included in that category.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

She reiterated Illinois health officials will continue to work vigorously to protect the state's most vulnerable populations.

Lots of quotes and examples here:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated

Quote
“I think a lot of clinicians are putting that condition (COVID-19) on death certificates when it might not be accurate because they died with coronavirus and not of coronavirus,” Macomb County, Mich., Chief Medical Examiner Daniel Spitz in an interview with the Ann Arbor News last month.

...

Colorado counted a man who a county coroner said died of acute alcohol poisoning as a COVID-19 death.

Montezuma County Coroner George Deavers told the Durango Herald the man’s blood-alcohol level was 0.55, or almost seven times the legal driving limit of 0.08 in Colorado. A BAC of 0.3 is considered lethal.

“COVID was not listed on the death certificate as the cause of death,” Deavers said, the paper reported Wednesday. “I disagree with the state for listing it as a COVID death, and will be discussing it with them this week.”

...

News reports have identified the man as Sebastian Yellow, 35, and reported that he was found dead by police May 4.

The Montezuma County Public Health Department also was refusing to report Yellow's death as a COVID-19 death. “The state is reporting that death as a COVID death, but our health department wanted to let people know that even though the person did have the virus, they did not die from it,” the agency said.

In response to a request for comment about Yellow’s death, the Colorado Department of Health told KCNC-TV that it classifies a death as confirmed when there is a positive SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) laboratory test.


...

Last month, the same agency reclassified three deaths at a Centennial nursing home as COVID-19 deaths, challenging the findings of attending physicians who ruled the deaths were unrelated to the virus.

The deaths occurred at Someren Glen, where four other residents died of COVID-19. The state has now recorded all seven deaths as COVID-19 deaths.

“We have never seen a situation where the health department overrules a physician’s findings,” Tim Rogers, the facility’s executive director, told KCNC. “However, these are unprecedented times and the health department official did not share their motivation for changing physician’s orders.”

A health department spokesman told the station of those deaths that the agency was following CDC guidance.

“When a person with a lab-confirmed case of COVID-19 dies, their death is automatically counted as a COVID-19 death unless there is another cause that completely rules out COVID-19, such as a fatal physical injury,” the spokesman said. “A pre-existing illness would not rule out COVID-19.”

The last health department claims that they are not recording physical injuries as Covid Deaths, but they are clearly recording almost any death that could be biological in nature as a Covid Death.

“We have never seen a situation where the health department overrules a physician’s findings” - The state is overruling dissenting physician findings and reclassifying deaths as Covid. Never done before. Certainly a motive there.

Quote from: stack
Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?

The government has drummed up fear in the past to enact its policies, consolidate power, and get funding for things like war.

Governments enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power. Like that has never happened before.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: scomato on July 30, 2021, 06:51:56 PM
Considering the pandemic is now almost exclusively ripping through the unvaccinated crowd, we're literally watching Darwinism happen in real time. People who are so low-IQ that they continue to be anti-vaxx or even vaxx-skeptical to this day are being systematically pruned from the gene pool.

If natural disasters are acts of god, then mRNA biotechnology innovations being invented in the short time before COVID hit is nothing short of divine intervention as far as I am concerned. It allowed for a vaccine to be developed in record time and measurably prevented a war's worth of death and suffering. For anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, and COVID deniers to get sick from a disease they have constantly underplayed, despite 4.2 million global deaths, and rejecting what could very well have been an olive branch from God himself - dying of COVID and then being mocked for your tweets seems like a fitting hell.

Doesn't the Bible explicitly warn Christians of false prophets, in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves? How else do you explain fervent and vocal anti-vaxx activists whose rhetoric is leading people on a straight shot path to illness, disability, death and suffering??
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 30, 2021, 07:02:34 PM
Are you saying that there is wide-scale fraud where the attending physicians who complete death certificates are falsifying the documents all across the country, around the globe?
If he isn't, then I am.

When governments provide funding to hospitals for mortalities listed as covid, then the administrators relying on the funding will certainly list covid as the cause, regardless of actual cause.
Considering the pandemic is now almost exclusively ripping through the unvaccinated crowd, we're literally watching Darwinism happen in real time. People who are so low-IQ that they continue to be anti-vaxx or even vaxx-skeptical to this day are being systematically pruned from the gene pool.

If natural disasters are acts of god, then mRNA biotechnology innovations being invented in the short time before COVID hit is nothing short of divine intervention as far as I am concerned. It allowed for a vaccine to be developed in record time and measurably prevented a war's worth of death and suffering. For anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, and COVID deniers to get sick from a disease they have constantly underplayed, despite 4.2 million global deaths, and rejecting what could very well have been an olive branch from God himself - dying of COVID and then being mocked for your tweets seems like a fitting hell.

Doesn't the Bible explicitly warn Christians of false prophets, in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves? How else do you explain fervent and vocal anti-vaxx activists whose rhetoric is leading people on a straight shot path to illness, disability, death and suffering??
Illness, disease, suffering, and death are all part of a normal life.

Who the fuck lied to you when you were growing up, telling you otherwise?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 30, 2021, 07:10:40 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

I suggest you familiarize yourself with this information.

Quote from: stack
Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?

The government has drummed up fear in the past to enact its policies, consolidate power, and get funding for things like war.

Governments enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power. Like that has never happened before.  ::)

So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?  ::)

Edit: Lastly, regarding that 20,000+ NYC excess deaths figure, 16k attributed to Covid, 4k not, according to your assessment, how much of that 16k is false Covid reporting?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 30, 2021, 07:13:19 PM
Illness, disease, suffering, and death are all part of a normal life.

Diphtheria is no longer a part of normal life.
Polio is no longer a part of normal life.
Tetanus is no longer a part of normal life.
Measles are no longer a part of normal life.
Mumps are no longer a part of normal life.
Rubella is no longer a part of normal life.
Whooping cough is no longer a part of normal life.

Are we seeing a pattern yet?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 30, 2021, 07:40:04 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Your quote just says "a" cause of death. They want it to be reported even if it's not the main cause of death.

Doctors are saying that they are being pressured by authorities to do things differently, even if Covid is not detected at all:

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/doctors-and-clinical-researchers-challenge-uns-who-cdc-and-dr-faucis

Quote
COVID doctors challenge CDC's rules on cause of death, concerned about inflated numbers

Frontline COVID-19 doctors this week have gone public saying they feel pressured to show COVID-19 as cause-of-death on certificates of patients suspected of having the virus when they also have had underlying medical conditions.

Dr. Jonathan Fishbein, a clinical researcher, says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Disease and the World Health Organization have issued “vague if not misguided recommendations that unfortunately have been adopted by national, state and local leaders.”

“It is absolutely critical that we have accurate data to support decision-makers,” he also told Just the News. “If the data in our assessments included patients who have not definitively tested positive for COVID-19, that provides misleading information to policy-makers.

In cases of pandemics or epidemics, world organizations set the cause-of-death guidelines to create a uniformity among countries and related, international health agencies.

It is not unusual for the CDC, in conjunction with WHO, to add new codes when a new disease appears.

But it is unusual when there is a new disease and a patient dies and the cause of their death may be their underlying condition like diabetes or congestive heart failure and the doctors are pressured to report the cause of death as COVID-19 instead.

Such reporting could result in inaccurately inflating the number of virus-related deaths and hurt those drafting public health policy for future pandemics or epidemics.

The above article states that:

- Doctors are feeling pressured to report deaths as Covid
- There is a central world authority on how deaths are reported during pandemics

Quote from: stack
So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?

They do get together and work on shared goals and policies. There are a consolidation of world leaders who are part of the World Economic Forum who have publicly stated on their website that they want to use Coronavirus as an opportunity to push their "Great Reset" of capitalism. We talked about that already.

But you still haven't explained why we need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid. The last time this was asked you just ran away from the discussion. Care to explain?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 30, 2021, 08:14:47 PM
That article Tom linked to says doctors are “feeling pressured”, but never does it even quote a single doctor who is feeling this way. It is just asserted and Tom is drinking it up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on July 30, 2021, 08:20:20 PM
Ok Tom,   I'll ask you the same question I asked Wuhan80.

If all these numbers are fake and everyone is lying, how will you ever know if a real pandemic hits. After all, even Trump says he lied about the pandemic. You believe the emergency rooms and intensive care units are packed with crisis actors right now. Do you not believe that pandemics occurred naturally?
You obviously have no friends, family or connections in the medical industry. I'm sure Mike Liddell will tell you the real truth.
For the anti-maskers it's all about defending their individual rights. Well, I also have the individual right to protect myself and my family from ignorant, disease-ridden rednecks spreading their pathogens in my neighborhood. You can move to Alabama where they believe all the internet science you're spewing.

It's funny how anything that inconveniences conservatives or cost them money is always a liberal hoax.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 30, 2021, 08:38:39 PM
That article Tom linked to says doctors are “feeling pressured”, but never does it even quote a single doctor who is feeling this way. It is just asserted and Tom is drinking it up.

The doctor cited says that the way of counting deaths are vague and misleading, result in wrong numbers, and is concerned about the situation. If an authority is giving you instructions to do something, you are being pressured to do it.

If your manager wants you to do something, and you are concerned about it, you are being pressured to do it by definition.

Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
Ok Tom,   I'll ask you the same question I asked Wuhan80.

If all these numbers are fake and everyone is lying, how will you ever know if a real pandemic hits.

Probably when people other than the elderly and chronically ill are actually dying and these memes aren't possible:

(https://i.ibb.co/n3CY01b/Ed-Ooz-YNWk-AATY-v.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: scomato on July 30, 2021, 08:45:05 PM

If an authority is giving you instructions to do something, you are being pressured to do it.

Do you wear a seatbelt, because the government is pressuring you into doing it, or do you wear a seatbelt because it might save your life?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 30, 2021, 08:46:16 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Your quote just says "a" cause of death. They want it to be reported even if it's not the main cause of death.

Yes, if Covid is the Underlying Cause of Death (UCOD), it is reported as such along with the other elements that exist and/or contribute to death. Ex.,:

We had another traffic accident -- or a motorcycle accident -- where the person was subsequently hospitalized for a long period of time, got pneumonia. It happened to be COVID pneumonia, and they died,” he said. “In that case, we did contribute it to COVID pneumonia.
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/08/05/medical-examiner-responds-to-questions-about-floridas-coronavirus-death-numbers/

Doctors are saying that they are being pressured by authorities to do things differently, even if Covid is not detected at all:

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/doctors-and-clinical-researchers-challenge-uns-who-cdc-and-dr-faucis

"Doctors"? You mean Doctor, singular. And said Dr quoted, Jonathan M. Fishbein, M.D., former NIH Researcher (and whistleblower), who seems to be quoted in several articles on that site and not too fond of Fauci, is saying, "He's being pressured by the CDC to misreport..."???
He's a research guy. He has no connection to treating Covid patients and filling out death certificates, etc. He's the founder of Veracuity: "...a digital healthcare technology firm focused on the safety of drugs and vaccines. Our core business is collecting, processing, and analyzing adverse drug and vaccine events, as reported by consumers and healthcare officials." Hmmm.

Some solid reporting there.

Quote from: stack
So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?

They do get together and work on shared goals and policies. There are a consolidation of world leaders who are part of the World Economic Forum who have publicly stated on their website that they want to use Coronavirus as an opportunity to push their "Great Reset" of capitalism. We talked about that already.

But you still haven't explained why we need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid. The last time this was asked you just ran away from the discussion. Care to explain?

Jeez, not "The Great Reset" thing again? So all of the Covid reporting is falsified, by all of the governments all around the world as they are all in cahoots with one another to enact the Great Reset. Got it.

And what have these worldwide changes to the nature of capitalism under the guise of the pandemic been so far? How's the progress on that front?

And you haven't answered my question:

Lastly, regarding that 20,000+ NYC excess deaths figure, 16k attributed to Covid, 4k not, according to your assessment, how much of that 16k is false Covid reporting?

Edit: Oh yeah, I didn't runaway from the discussion, the admin for the site posted this after your last comment on the Great Reset stuff:

Anyway, back on topic, France is upping the ante.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on July 30, 2021, 08:48:30 PM

Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
Ok Tom,   I'll ask you the same question I asked Wuhan80.

If all these numbers are fake and everyone is lying, how will you ever know if a real pandemic hits.

Probably when people other than the elderly and chronically ill are actually dying and these memes aren't possible:

(https://i.ibb.co/n3CY01b/Ed-Ooz-YNWk-AATY-v.jpg)


But your 99.9% figure comes from somewhere. How do you know that's not a lie?

By the way, you understand that there are those who question the casualty figures of World War II? There are those who say Millions did not die in the Nazi death camps.

Aren't you just picking the numbers you want to pick?
Is the only thing that will convince you otherwise is to see dead bodies piling up somewhere?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 30, 2021, 09:13:38 PM
That article Tom linked to says doctors are “feeling pressured”, but never does it even quote a single doctor who is feeling this way. It is just asserted and Tom is drinking it up.

He is a great puppet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on July 30, 2021, 09:17:19 PM
That article Tom linked to says doctors are “feeling pressured”, but never does it even quote a single doctor who is feeling this way. It is just asserted and Tom is drinking it up.

He is a great puppet.

It's the same way that Tom believed Trump, when Trump was saying that all the doctors are lying and the pandemic is a hoax.

Of course, we really don't know if Trump is lying now or was lying then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 30, 2021, 09:41:18 PM
That article Tom linked to says doctors are “feeling pressured”, but never does it even quote a single doctor who is feeling this way. It is just asserted and Tom is drinking it up.

The doctor cited says that the way of counting deaths are vague and misleading, result in wrong numbers, and is concerned about the situation.

What in the article is giving you that impression? I’ve read it a few times now and all I see is that he communicated that formal guidance on death certification and that he has created a tool to find more nuance. It really seems like you are inferring something that isn’t there.

Quote
If your manager wants you to do something, and you are concerned about it, you are being pressured to do it by definition.

Ehhh, sure? Maybe? But again, there is no doctor raising substantial concerns of dishonest death reporting in that article. The formal guidance never tells people to report COVID as a cause of death unless COVID “ caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death.”

I’m a layperson, but those seem like reasonable reasons to list COVID on a death certificate. I can also see why a doctor might want more nuance in the process but let’s keep in mind this was in the opening weeks of the pandemic when there wasn’t a lot of data and the situation was developing rapidly. I would expect the guidance not to be perfect. How about you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 31, 2021, 04:27:29 AM
When my manager tells me to do something I don't feel comfortable doing, that is not pressure.  Pressure is when I tell them I'm not comfortable doing it and they insist I do it anyway.  That is pressure.  If they don't insist you do it anyway, its not pressure.

I also like how Tom can't quote anyone in France, Germany, Ethiopia, China, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Bosnia, South Africa, India, or any country other than the US and UK.  Surely a global conspiracy would have millions of doctors speaking out and would cause some world leaders to not fall in line.

No one has control over every nation on earth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Fortuna on July 31, 2021, 05:51:38 AM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on July 31, 2021, 09:45:02 PM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 31, 2021, 10:02:16 PM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

Really?  Care to make a wager?
And which date would you mark as the 1 year anniverary, so I can put it in my calendar?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on July 31, 2021, 11:02:15 PM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

Really?  Care to make a wager?
And which date would you mark as the 1 year anniverary, so I can put it in my calendar?

Which poison jab did you succumb too? I can rate your time table.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 31, 2021, 11:42:43 PM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

Really?  Care to make a wager?
And which date would you mark as the 1 year anniverary, so I can put it in my calendar?

Which poison jab did you succumb too? I can rate your time table.

Oooh this sounds fun, do me!

I got two Pfizers, what's my ETD?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 01, 2021, 12:13:37 AM
I’ve uploaded my consciousness to the internet with the aid of my vaccine nanopower. Eat singularity vaccine hesitants.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on August 01, 2021, 02:43:54 AM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

Really?  Care to make a wager?
And which date would you mark as the 1 year anniverary, so I can put it in my calendar?

Which poison jab did you succumb too? I can rate your time table.

Oooh this sounds fun, do me!

I got two Pfizers, what's my ETD?

Oh im sorry, you won't be getting pregnant and 572 days...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Fortuna on August 01, 2021, 03:57:58 AM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

It has already been a year since the first clinical trials started for the mRNA vaccines. People should be dropping dead left and right over the course of the next couple months then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2021, 04:33:09 AM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

Really?  Care to make a wager?
And which date would you mark as the 1 year anniverary, so I can put it in my calendar?

Which poison jab did you succumb too? I can rate your time table.

Moderna.  Haven't gotten my second dose yet.  That'll be october.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on August 01, 2021, 11:58:12 AM
Oh im sorry, you won't be getting pregnant and 572 days...

Damn, the vaccine isnt going to grow me a uterus like I was hoping?
Hopefully your estimated time of my demise is a bit premature....I could stand to kick around for a few extra decades
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on August 01, 2021, 02:25:22 PM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

It has already been a year since the first clinical trials started for the mRNA vaccines. People should be dropping dead left and right over the course of the next couple months then.

They are most likely 100000+ if not 1 mill but vaers quit reporting and makes it almost impossible to report side effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on August 01, 2021, 02:35:47 PM
They are most likely 100000+ if not 1 mill but vaers quit reporting and makes it almost impossible to report side effects.
Are you aware that countries other than the USA exist?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 01, 2021, 02:47:14 PM
I got an email after my first vaccine asking me to participate in a long term (2 years) vaccine study to see how it affects people.

That's your new life expectancy since you're probably young or middle aged. Many will die the first year anniversary.

It has already been a year since the first clinical trials started for the mRNA vaccines. People should be dropping dead left and right over the course of the next couple months then.

They are most likely 100000+ if not 1 mill but vaers quit reporting and makes it almost impossible to report side effects.

There were no clinical trials of the vaccine in the US. Also, VAERS is reported to, they don’t report, but you can download their data from their website.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 01, 2021, 03:54:02 PM
About time something was done about these damaging lies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58045787
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on August 01, 2021, 06:33:29 PM
About time something was done about these damaging lies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58045787

"YouTube did not point to specific items but said it opposed material that "could cause real-world harm"."

Do you think it would be right if I ban you for a week then refuse to tell you why aside from saying I oppose material that "could cause real-world harm"? It should be concerning that YouTube:

1. Has enough power and control that banning a channel makes a large impact on the availability of information.
2. Exercises this control at their own discretion and does not specify what caused the removal aside from a vague platitude.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 01, 2021, 06:52:59 PM
YouTube can and does provide information about bans to channels behind the scenes. Just because they don’t announce to the public the specific details of what warranted a ban, does not mean they routinely proceed in an obfuscating mannner.

I also wonder why anyone thinks YouTube shouldn’t be able to ban people from using their platform. They are a private business, after all. Surely they shouldn’t be forced to carry content of any sort without discretion? Seems pretty authoritarian.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Fortuna on August 01, 2021, 07:00:16 PM
I also wonder why anyone thinks YouTube shouldn’t be able to ban people from using their platform. They are a private business, after all. Surely they shouldn’t be forced to carry content of any sort without discretion? Seems pretty authoritarian.

You have it backwards. Single entities under no oversight having the authority to control huge amounts of information that is distributed to billions of people is authoritarian. Just because they are technically a private business that can ban who it wants does not mean it should be that way. Unless you are an amoeba who thinks laws should remain static for all time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on August 01, 2021, 07:07:07 PM
YouTube can and does provide information about bans to channels behind the scenes. Just because they don’t announce to the public the specific details of what warranted a ban, does not mean they routinely proceed in an obfuscating mannner.

Do you have evidence of that?

I also wonder why anyone thinks YouTube shouldn’t be able to ban people from using their platform. They are a private business, after all. Surely they shouldn’t be forced to carry content of any sort without discretion? Seems pretty authoritarian.

That's a surprisingly libertarian viewpoint from you. If one large conglomerate controls the majority of online information, do you think it's okay for the owner to suppress any information they don't like? For example, say Google's board decides it really doesn't like a particular political candidate. You are no longer allowed to search for their name on Google, you are not allowed to make posts using that name on Google's servers or allowed to post videos about that candidate. Is that perfectly okay because they are a private business? How much power in the hand of private business is too much? Google is also an Internet Service Provider (ISP). Should an ISP be able to block political traffic they disagree with?

https://www.datanyze.com/market-share/online-video--12/youtube-market-share

Youtube has competitors, but controls 74% of the user-based video streaming market. That's a pretty powerful hand on the valve of information. Imagine all of the things that Google hides from you on a daily basis that you never hear about because Google hid them from you in the first place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on August 01, 2021, 07:10:21 PM
You have it backwards. Single entities under no oversight having the authority to control huge amounts of information that is distributed to billions of people is authoritarian. Just because they are technically a private business that can ban who it wants does not mean it should be that way. Unless you are an amoeba who thinks laws should remain static for all time.
They don't control the information. Anyone can publish any legal material they like on the web without having to go through any one specific content provider. Being unable to post it on YouTube means almost nothing — the only disadvantage is that you no longer appear in YouTube search results or recommendations, which are used by many people, and that may be considered a form of monopoly.

If there is a role for legislation to play here, it is in reducing YouTube's de facto monopoly on video hosting, not regulating what content they are allowed to ban.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Fortuna on August 01, 2021, 07:41:56 PM
Being unable to post it on YouTube means almost nothing — the only disadvantage is that you no longer appear in YouTube search results or recommendations, which are used by many people, and that may be considered a form of monopoly.

If there is a role for legislation to play here, it is in reducing YouTube's de facto monopoly on video hosting, not regulating what content they are allowed to ban.

It would be a lot easier to reclassify massive media entities like Facebook and YouTube as public utilities and apply government oversight than it would be to play whack-a-mole for every new media monopoly that springs up. You can't easily legislate where people choose to spend time on the internet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on August 01, 2021, 07:50:07 PM
It would be a lot easier to reclassify massive media entities like Facebook and YouTube as public utilities and apply government oversight than it would be to play whack-a-mole for every new media monopoly that springs up. You can't easily legislate where people choose to spend time on the internet.
Not directly, no, but most regulations don't apply directly to the thing they're trying to regulate. You don't prevent car accidents by having police be everywhere enforcing the road rules, you reduce the risk by requiring people to take a test to be allowed to drive.

Similarly, there are various indirect methods that could be applied here. A good start would be improved education in technical literacy, so that people understand the difference between the free, decentralised web and an individual private content provider with its own rules. Also, a government-run (or -regulated) search engine that indexes content on private media websites could go a long way to separating content hosting (which there is no need to regulate, beyond banning obviously illegal material) from content discovery (which is currently controlled by the content hosting providers, and that is the problem).

It's a bit defeatist to say "it can't be done" without even trying to solve the problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 01, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
If one large conglomerate controls the majority of online information, do you think it's okay for the owner to suppress any information they don't like? For example, say Google's board decides it really doesn't like a particular political candidate. You are no longer allowed to search for their name on Google, you are not allowed to make posts using that name on Google's servers or allowed to post videos about that candidate. Is that perfectly okay because they are a private business?
That is absolutely not what has happened here and you know it.
Given how powerful YouTube is, don't you think they have some responsibility to police what is posted if the content is untrue and harmful to public health? There should be some limits on what can be posted.
There is a potential issue here of course, who is the arbiter of truth? I guess in this example, they are. But the internet being a free for all where anyone can post anything without scrutiny isn't working out too well, I'd suggest it's a big part of the "post truth" world we now live in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2021, 07:56:31 PM
I'm with Rama.

Youtube is a website that has videos.  They do not promote themselves as a news source.  We should not have the government try to legitimize youtube as a valid information source.

Also of note: News channels can and do filter information they don't like.  And they ARE a legitimate source of information, yet we do nothing. And while youtube does control alot of attention, as does Twitter, Twitch, Tumblr, facebook, and whatever else is used, just remember:  ICANN controls their asses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 01, 2021, 09:36:18 PM
 :-*
YouTube can and does provide information about bans to channels behind the scenes. Just because they don’t announce to the public the specific details of what warranted a ban, does not mean they routinely proceed in an obfuscating mannner.

Do you have evidence of that?

I’ve heard Philip DeFranco discuss conversations he’s had with YouTube reps over his issues surrounding censorship on the platform.

Quote
That's a surprisingly libertarian viewpoint from you.

Not really.

Quote
If one large conglomerate controls the majority of online information, do you think it's okay for the owner to suppress any information they don't like? For example, say Google's board decides it really doesn't like a particular political candidate. You are no longer allowed to search for their name on Google, you are not allowed to make posts using that name on Google's servers or allowed to post videos about that candidate. Is that perfectly okay because they are a private business? How much power in the hand of private business is too much? Google is also an Internet Service Provider (ISP). Should an ISP be able to block political traffic they disagree with?

https://www.datanyze.com/market-share/online-video--12/youtube-market-share

Youtube has competitors, but controls 74% of the user-based video streaming market. That's a pretty powerful hand on the valve of information. Imagine all of the things that Google hides from you on a daily basis that you never hear about because Google hid them from you in the first place.

Ethically, I would prefer YouTube not to ban this content, but instead put barriers to entry in place, similar with what Twitter did with Trump’s shitposting but I also think a private enterprise shouldn’t be forced to do business with someone they don’t wish to, especially when it’s not a protected class.

I am concerned about Google’s search algorithm, but it’s incumbent on me to use alternative search engines, which is a trivial solution. If we want to have this sort of regulation of tech companies they need to made in to utilities. We have all but formally admitted that video streaming is an essential tool of today’s communication.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on August 01, 2021, 10:49:51 PM
I’ve heard Philip DeFranco discuss conversations he’s had with YouTube reps over his issues surrounding censorship on the platform.

That's not evidence...

Ethically, I would prefer YouTube not to ban this content, but instead put barriers to entry in place, similar with what Twitter did with Trump’s shitposting but I also think a private enterprise shouldn’t be forced to do business with someone they don’t wish to, especially when it’s not a protected class.

I am concerned about Google’s search algorithm, but it’s incumbent on me to use alternative search engines, which is a trivial solution. If we want to have this sort of regulation of tech companies they need to made in to utilities. We have all but formally admitted that video streaming is an essential tool of today’s communication.

It seems that you're fine with private businesses censoring people as long as competition exists, but history shows that businesses easily collaborate when their interests align. This means in the internet sphere where only two or three businesses are competing in a certain realm, it becomes pretty easy to effectively control what information the vast majority of people see.

In the case that they don't collaborate, removing a video from Youtube probably prevents thousands or even hundreds of thousands of people from seeing it, for better or worse. Most people don't go through a great deal of effort to hunt things down (most people can't be pained to look up basic information about their local reps, even). Information control doesn't need to be absolute to do serious damage.

I would agree to give more rights to 'private business' in this regard if their market share was limited, but right now most of the information on the internet is controlled by only a handful of tech companies. Google's search engine market share is 92%. Imagine how much of a difference their proprietary algorithm makes on the information that billions of people view every day. 


That is absolutely not what has happened here and you know it.
Given how powerful YouTube is, don't you think they have some responsibility to police what is posted if the content is untrue and harmful to public health? There should be some limits on what can be posted.
There is a potential issue here of course, who is the arbiter of truth? I guess in this example, they are. But the internet being a free for all where anyone can post anything without scrutiny isn't working out too well, I'd suggest it's a big part of the "post truth" world we now live in.

Not only are they the arbiter of truth, they don't have to tell you exactly what they un-truthed. They tell the public "no, you're not allowed to hear that" and that's that. My stance would be closer to that of Rama's if Google's market share in video hosting were closer to 20% of the market instead of 70%.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 01, 2021, 11:42:23 PM
Not only are they the arbiter of truth, they don't have to tell you exactly what they un-truthed. They tell the public "no, you're not allowed to hear that" and that's that. My stance would be closer to that of Rama's if Google's market share in video hosting were closer to 20% of the market instead of 70%.

Are you suggesting that at certain market share level Google YT shouldn't be allowed to remove/ban content and/or creators of said content? If so, what percent would be the tipping point? Something north of 20%? Kind of a 'too big to censor' rule?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 02, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
Illness, disease, suffering, and death are all part of a normal life.

Diphtheria is no longer a part of normal life.
Polio is no longer a part of normal life.
Tetanus is no longer a part of normal life.
Measles are no longer a part of normal life.
Mumps are no longer a part of normal life.
Rubella is no longer a part of normal life.
Whooping cough is no longer a part of normal life.

Are we seeing a pattern yet?
Yes, we are seeing a pattern.

Your continued denial that death is a normal part of life.

Those things still exist and still take lives.

And they were controlled with far less draconian measures than you henny pennies think are necessary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 02, 2021, 10:39:10 AM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

I suggest you familiarize yourself with this information.

Quote from: stack
Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?

The government has drummed up fear in the past to enact its policies, consolidate power, and get funding for things like war.

Governments enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power. Like that has never happened before.  ::)

So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?  ::)

Edit: Lastly, regarding that 20,000+ NYC excess deaths figure, 16k attributed to Covid, 4k not, according to your assessment, how much of that 16k is false Covid reporting?
I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 02, 2021, 12:40:57 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

I suggest you familiarize yourself with this information.

Quote from: stack
Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?

The government has drummed up fear in the past to enact its policies, consolidate power, and get funding for things like war.

Governments enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power. Like that has never happened before.  ::)

So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?  ::)

Edit: Lastly, regarding that 20,000+ NYC excess deaths figure, 16k attributed to Covid, 4k not, according to your assessment, how much of that 16k is false Covid reporting?
I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

What about at hospitals that don't get extra money per covid person?  Like most of the world?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 02, 2021, 12:56:33 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

I suggest you familiarize yourself with this information.

Quote from: stack
Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?

The government has drummed up fear in the past to enact its policies, consolidate power, and get funding for things like war.

Governments enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power. Like that has never happened before.  ::)

So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?  ::)

Edit: Lastly, regarding that 20,000+ NYC excess deaths figure, 16k attributed to Covid, 4k not, according to your assessment, how much of that 16k is false Covid reporting?
I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

What about at hospitals that don't get extra money per covid person?  Like most of the world?
All worldwide economic activity, including hospitals, were receiving government subsidized payments based on Covid.

The IMF https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/imf-and-covid19/COVID-Lending-Tracker is making a killing off of this.

The governments do not care for their people, they only care about their skim off the trillions being lent out by the IMF.

USE THE WORD COVID, GET PAID BIG BUCKS!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on August 02, 2021, 02:30:13 PM
I just had my second jab. Posting this telepathically over 5G. It was totally worth it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 02, 2021, 04:44:09 PM
The White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator during the start of the Coronavirus pandemic said it herself that they were doing things differently.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

Here's the official CDC guidance on how to report Covid deaths:

Reporting and Coding Deaths Due to COVID-19
This page provides guidance and resources for reporting deaths due to COVID-19 on death certificates. When COVID-19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to accurately assess the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.

Everything you want to know about how Covid deaths should be reported on death certificates. Seems quite standard. Here's the longer PDF with the details from the link above:

Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

I suggest you familiarize yourself with this information.

Quote from: stack
Around the entire planet? For what purpose? As in what motive, gain, and for whom?

The government has drummed up fear in the past to enact its policies, consolidate power, and get funding for things like war.

Governments enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power. Like that has never happened before.  ::)

So pretty much every government on the planet is engaged in "enacting fear and tyranny to enact policies and consolidate power"?  ::)

Edit: Lastly, regarding that 20,000+ NYC excess deaths figure, 16k attributed to Covid, 4k not, according to your assessment, how much of that 16k is false Covid reporting?
I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

What about at hospitals that don't get extra money per covid person?  Like most of the world?
All worldwide economic activity, including hospitals, were receiving government subsidized payments based on Covid.

The IMF https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/imf-and-covid19/COVID-Lending-Tracker is making a killing off of this.

The governments do not care for their people, they only care about their skim off the trillions being lent out by the IMF.

USE THE WORD COVID, GET PAID BIG BUCKS!!!

According to the tracker, most nations aren't getting anything.  Only those who are poor.
Soooo....not sure what the problem is.  If a country is poor, they need help to combat covid and get a loan.

What... Do you think like... The US gets a few million from the loan repayment from dirty poor nations?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 02, 2021, 04:53:54 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

Wow, this says more about your conscience than mine - I once found a wallet on the sidewalk. It had some cash, like $60+, a University ID and some credit/debitcards. I scoured the web for the individual based on the ID. Found her father's info, called him up, he said it was her daughter's. She was visiting here from school, he lived locally. He came by and picked up the wallet, cash included.

Sounds like your your sense of guidance is severely warped & selfish - Makes sense given your stance on this topic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 02, 2021, 06:18:27 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.
Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

Wow, this says more about your conscience than mine - I once found a wallet on the sidewalk. It had some cash, like $60+, a University ID and some credit/debitcards. I scoured the web for the individual based on the ID. Found her father's info, called him up, he said it was her daughter's. She was visiting here from school, he lived locally. He came by and picked up the wallet, cash included.

Sounds like your your sense of guidance is severely warped & selfish - Makes sense given your stance on this topic.
Yeah, right.

Don't believe that one bit.

And your virtue signaling is just hypocritical BS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 02, 2021, 06:55:56 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.
You claimed they were first so... its you who must prove that claim.  And I'd like to know: Are US hospitals getting $$$ for every dead covid person?  Someone prove this to me one way or another.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 02, 2021, 09:39:45 PM
Not only are they the arbiter of truth, they don't have to tell you exactly what they un-truthed. They tell the public "no, you're not allowed to hear that" and that's that. My stance would be closer to that of Rama's if Google's market share in video hosting were closer to 20% of the market instead of 70%.
But doesn't that market share also give them a responsibility? If people post damaging lies on there then a LOT of people are going to see them and there are consequences to that. I don't think just doing nothing is an option. One option could be to have some independent body police all this but does true independence really exist?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 02, 2021, 11:21:53 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.
Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

Wow, this says more about your conscience than mine - I once found a wallet on the sidewalk. It had some cash, like $60+, a University ID and some credit/debitcards. I scoured the web for the individual based on the ID. Found her father's info, called him up, he said it was her daughter's. She was visiting here from school, he lived locally. He came by and picked up the wallet, cash included.

Sounds like your your sense of guidance is severely warped & selfish - Makes sense given your stance on this topic.
Yeah, right.

Don't believe that one bit.

And your virtue signaling is just hypocritical BS.

We all get that you're greedy and selfish but believe it or not, not everyone thinks "ooh free money!" if they find a wallet. A few months ago I lost mine. It was returned to me by a stranger, cash intact. You have a seriously warped view of the world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on August 03, 2021, 01:29:32 AM
Kathy Griffin got all jabbed up with the gene therapy, never smoked but now has lung cancer. Hope she makes it. Wonder what Trumps head would say? Head on spike or SPIKE PROTEIN.....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 10:43:16 AM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.
You claimed they were first so... its you who must prove that claim.  And I'd like to know: Are US hospitals getting $$$ for every dead covid person?  Someone prove this to me one way or another.
It's a fact. Not a claim.

And hospitals were receiving more money than usual from the government, thanks to the CARES Act, for just listing a case as Covid treatment.

Nearly everyone that was hospitalized with this disease met the age or eligibility requirements for Medicare to begin with.

The majority of those dead were over the age of 65.

$13k for a case, $39k if a ventilator was used, more than double what the government was paying prior to covid.

I am no longer going to waste any time with you Dave.

You are neither a lord nor even equal to a commoner with the lousy trolling and denial.

You push total disinformation and will eventually answer for all of it.

You seem to be all for lining the pockets of corporate medicine in any way possible. A true reformer, in every sense of the term.

Absolutely disgusting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 11:35:17 AM

It's a fact. Not a claim.


Claim is not the opposite of fact. A claim is something that you claim, obviously. You are a claiming this is a fact. You are being asked to give a source.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 12:14:52 PM

It's a fact. Not a claim.


Claim is not the opposite of fact. A claim is something that you claim, obviously. You are a claiming this is a fact. You are being asked to give a source.
I stated a fact.

Something that has eluded you, quite obviously.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 12:22:01 PM

It's a fact. Not a claim.


Claim is not the opposite of fact. A claim is something that you claim, obviously. You are a claiming this is a fact. You are being asked to give a source.
I stated a fact.

Something that has eluded you, quite obviously.

No, I understood you quite clearly. You claim it’s a fact, and are being asked to support that claim. I know you understand this, but you either can’t support it, or so not wish to out of spite.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 12:23:53 PM

It's a fact. Not a claim.


Claim is not the opposite of fact. A claim is something that you claim, obviously. You are a claiming this is a fact. You are being asked to give a source.
I stated a fact.

Something that has eluded you, quite obviously.

No, I understood you quite clearly. You claim it’s a fact, and are being asked to support that claim. I know you understand this, but you either can’t support it, or so not wish to out of spite.
I have provided the support.

Out of spite, you just continue writing denials.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 12:27:32 PM

It's a fact. Not a claim.


Claim is not the opposite of fact. A claim is something that you claim, obviously. You are a claiming this is a fact. You are being asked to give a source.
I stated a fact.

Something that has eluded you, quite obviously.

No, I understood you quite clearly. You claim it’s a fact, and are being asked to support that claim. I know you understand this, but you either can’t support it, or so not wish to out of spite.
I have provided the support.

Out of spite, you just continue writing denials.

I haven’t denied anything, I might have missed it. Can you link to the post where this evidence is located?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 12:34:21 PM

It's a fact. Not a claim.


Claim is not the opposite of fact. A claim is something that you claim, obviously. You are a claiming this is a fact. You are being asked to give a source.
I stated a fact.

Something that has eluded you, quite obviously.

No, I understood you quite clearly. You claim it’s a fact, and are being asked to support that claim. I know you understand this, but you either can’t support it, or so not wish to out of spite.
I have provided the support.

Out of spite, you just continue writing denials.

I haven’t denied anything, I might have missed it. Can you link to the post where this evidence is located?
Read the thread.

Read.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 12:45:21 PM
Read the thread.

Read.

So it's spite, got it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 03, 2021, 12:45:45 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.

Actually no, you need to provide a source for your statement, "The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death." That is your claim.

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

Wow, this says more about your conscience than mine - I once found a wallet on the sidewalk. It had some cash, like $60+, a University ID and some credit/debitcards. I scoured the web for the individual based on the ID. Found her father's info, called him up, he said it was her daughter's. She was visiting here from school, he lived locally. He came by and picked up the wallet, cash included.

Sounds like your your sense of guidance is severely warped & selfish - Makes sense given your stance on this topic.
Yeah, right.

Don't believe that one bit.

And your virtue signaling is just hypocritical BS.

Are you saying, as your default MO, that if you found a wallet on the street that you wouldn't try to return it to its owner, contents intact?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 12:57:44 PM
The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects.
The vaccine was the first of its kind ever used on humans.

Over 16,000 dead from the vaccine in the US. Thousands more injured permantly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 12:58:53 PM
Read the thread.

Read.

So it's spite, got it.
Yeah, it is only spite that prevents you from you reading.

And it was out of spite that you posted all the false crap when this thread first started.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 01:02:27 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.

Actually no, you need to provide a source for your statement, "The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death." That is your claim.
Already done.

Asked and answered.

Read the thread.

Quit trolling.

Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

Wow, this says more about your conscience than mine - I once found a wallet on the sidewalk. It had some cash, like $60+, a University ID and some credit/debitcards. I scoured the web for the individual based on the ID. Found her father's info, called him up, he said it was her daughter's. She was visiting here from school, he lived locally. He came by and picked up the wallet, cash included.

Sounds like your your sense of guidance is severely warped & selfish - Makes sense given your stance on this topic.
Yeah, right.

Don't believe that one bit.

And your virtue signaling is just hypocritical BS.

Are you saying, as your default MO, that if you found a wallet on the street that you wouldn't try to return it to its owner, contents intact?
No, and you know it.

I am writing that corporate greed, the thing you lefties so despise, seems to magically disappear when the reality smacks you right in the face. You somehow magically cannot recognize it when fascism that you truly love appears.

Another case of accuse the other side of doing what you want.

You guys are busted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 03, 2021, 01:25:07 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.

Actually no, you need to provide a source for your statement, "The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death." That is your claim.
Already done.

Asked and answered.

Read the thread.

Quit trolling.

I did go back and read the thread. I couldn't find anywhere where you cited a source that stated that, in your words, "The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death." Please cite your source.


Just like you wouldn't follow "guidance," if I dropped my wallet on the ground and you found it.

Demonstrable lack of conscience found in your post history.

Wow, this says more about your conscience than mine - I once found a wallet on the sidewalk. It had some cash, like $60+, a University ID and some credit/debitcards. I scoured the web for the individual based on the ID. Found her father's info, called him up, he said it was her daughter's. She was visiting here from school, he lived locally. He came by and picked up the wallet, cash included.

Sounds like your your sense of guidance is severely warped & selfish - Makes sense given your stance on this topic.
Yeah, right.

Don't believe that one bit.

And your virtue signaling is just hypocritical BS.

Are you saying, as your default MO, that if you found a wallet on the street that you wouldn't try to return it to its owner, contents intact?
No, and you know it.

I am writing that corporate greed, the thing you lefties so despise, seems to magically disappear when the reality smacks you right in the face. You somehow magically cannot recognize it when fascism that you truly love appears.

Another case of accuse the other side of doing what you want.

You guys are busted.

You wouldn't try and return the wallet and its contents? Why not?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 01:27:31 PM
The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects.
The vaccine was the first of its kind ever used on humans.

The mRNA COVID vaccines were given the largest human trials of any vaccine in history.  Plase 1, 2 and 3 trials for mRNA vaccines were underway before the COVID pandemic had begun.  Just because it was the first of it's kind, does not mean it is untested or unsafe.

You can read more here (https://www.oligotherapeutics.org/facts-about-mrna-vaccines-and-the-decades-of-research-that-went-into-creating-them/).

Quote
Over 16,000 dead from the vaccine in the US. Thousands more injured permantly.

These figures using the VAERS data which is not confirmed data, as they say when you download or search the data from their site.  They also do not confirm that any death reported is caused by the vaccine.  With over 350M doses administered, there is certainly going to be deaths proximal to, but not caused by, the vaccine injection.  However, even if you decide to take these figures at face value, which is a bad idea, the vaccine is still a net positive for the population.  16,000 deaths < 600,000 deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 01:52:32 PM
The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects.
The vaccine was the first of its kind ever used on humans.

The mRNA COVID vaccines were given the largest human trials of any vaccine in history.  Plase 1, 2 and 3 trials for mRNA vaccines were underway before the COVID pandemic had begun.  Just because it was the first of it's kind, does not mean it is untested or unsafe.
You wrote the mRNA vaccines were based "largely on previous vaccines." How could that possibly be?
You can read more here (https://www.oligotherapeutics.org/facts-about-mrna-vaccines-and-the-decades-of-research-that-went-into-creating-them/).
mRNA vaccines have been around and experimented for use in oncology, not for virology.

Just one huge lie after another when you write.

Quote
Over 16,000 dead from the vaccine in the US. Thousands more injured permanently.

These figures using the VAERS data which is not confirmed data, as they say when you download or search the data from their site.  They also do not confirm that any death reported is caused by the vaccine.  With over 350M doses administered, there is certainly going to be deaths proximal to, but not caused by, the vaccine injection.  However, even if you decide to take these figures at face value, which is a bad idea, the vaccine is still a net positive for the population.  16,000 deaths < 600,000 deaths.
Yeah, we all get it.

VAERS is good and reliable prior to Covid, now, not so much.

You guys are truly despicable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 03, 2021, 04:06:02 PM

I suggest you learn the definition of the word, "guidance," before you post again.

The government pays the hospital if Covid is the cause of death.

Administrators want the money.

And will not follow "guidance."

In the US, yes, for Medicare patients, the government pays the hospital for Covid services rendered. I'm not finding where the Gov't is paying something or anything extra for non-Medicare Covid patients.  Please cite a source.
A source for what?

You are now claiming that hospitals are not getting any monies related to Covid deaths unless the patients were on Medicare?

That is up to you, the claimant, to provide the source.
You claimed they were first so... its you who must prove that claim.  And I'd like to know: Are US hospitals getting $$$ for every dead covid person?  Someone prove this to me one way or another.
It's a fact. Not a claim.

And hospitals were receiving more money than usual from the government, thanks to the CARES Act, for just listing a case as Covid treatment.

Nearly everyone that was hospitalized with this disease met the age or eligibility requirements for Medicare to begin with.

The majority of those dead were over the age of 65.

$13k for a case, $39k if a ventilator was used, more than double what the government was paying prior to covid.

I am no longer going to waste any time with you Dave.

You are neither a lord nor even equal to a commoner with the lousy trolling and denial.

You push total disinformation and will eventually answer for all of it.

You seem to be all for lining the pockets of corporate medicine in any way possible. A true reformer, in every sense of the term.

Absolutely disgusting.

As with all things, Lackey is only half right.  So, I looked for evidence.  And surprise!  I know why he didn't wanna post links.

https://www.hhs.gov/coronavirus/cares-act-provider-relief-fund/for-providers/index.html

Yes, you get money.  But there are a ton of strings attached AND you need to prove you need the money.  And it can only be used for Covid related things or reimbursements.  You also must have accepted patients/payments from various government health care.  So any hospital that refuses Medicare patients would not get funds.
Its also not based on "per covid patient" but closer to a "reimbursement" system.  So you gotta spend the money first, then the governemnt will give you money to help cover the unexpected costs.  Provided you agree to the terms and conditions. (Read em.)


Also the deadline was November 6, 2020.  FYI.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 03, 2021, 04:13:59 PM
^ So, yeah.

They were getting money.

Thanks for finally admitting it.

Many doctors refuse to see a Medicare patient (which is exactly why you and Rama, the tremendous humanitarians you are, want to see everyone on Medicare), but a hospital generally does not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 03, 2021, 05:16:29 PM
^ So, yeah.

They were getting money.

Thanks for finally admitting it.

Many doctors refuse to see a Medicare patient (which is exactly why you and Rama, the tremendous humanitarians you are, want to see everyone on Medicare), but a hospital generally does not.

And?  We never claimed they were not.  We asked YOU to back it up.  But you didn't, so I did.
And its still not horrible.  Its literally "Did you pay for this corona victim without insurance?  Here's some money to pay for that."  "Did you give people free testing?  Here's money for that."  "Did you lose your business because corona kept you from doing dentistry?  Here's money for that."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 05:29:55 PM
You wrote the mRNA vaccines were based "largely on previous vaccines." How could that possibly be?

Well…
Quote
mRNA vaccines have been around and experimented for use in oncology, not for virology.

You give the answer here. Part of the appeal of mRNA vaccines is that the basic platform is the same for any use, then they adapt the mRNA to do what they want.

Quote
Just one huge lie after another when you write.

Incorrect.

Quote
Yeah, we all get it.

VAERS is good and reliable prior to Covid, now, not so much.


VAERS is good for identifying possible trends but it does not, as they say on their site, confirm all the results reported them. They literally say on their site:

“While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness.”

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

Quote
You guys are truly despicable.

Nice personal attack.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2021, 05:33:09 PM
^ So, yeah.

They were getting money.

Thanks for finally admitting it.

Many doctors refuse to see a Medicare patient (which is exactly why you and Rama, the tremendous humanitarians you are, want to see everyone on Medicare), but a hospital generally does not.

I want the US to have a single-payer healthcare system. It would reduce government spending, improve the economy and everyone’s quality of life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on August 03, 2021, 07:17:25 PM
You guys are truly despicable.

Don't do that. Warned.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 10:50:03 AM
Alberta is dropping all government mandates related to SARS-CoV-2 and Covid -19.

Reason?

Cannot demonstrate any science supporting government mandated restrictions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 11:26:38 AM
Alberta is dropping all government mandates related to SARS-CoV-2 and Covid -19.

Reason?

Cannot demonstrate any science supporting government mandated restrictions.

I haven’t seen any mention of what you are talking about, only that they are lifting restrictions because they are disruptive and there is vaccine protection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 11:29:12 AM
Alberta is dropping all government mandates related to SARS-CoV-2 and Covid -19.

Reason?

Cannot demonstrate any science supporting government mandated restrictions.

Once again making claims without supporting evidence. 
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/alberta-to-eliminate-covid-19-quarantine-rules-as-cases-rise-among-the-unvaccinated-1.5526426

Long story short: they feel they have enough vaccinated people to be able to remove restrictions and redirect resources elsewhere.  Which I'm sure is a good comfort for the people in ICU.  That is the "scientific data".  Not that Covid isn't bad, but because the providence is vaccinated enough to make the risk managable without restrictions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 11:35:38 AM
The premier did say they will focus on vaccination as the “most scientific” way to deal with the virus.

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/no-quarantine-for-covid-19-after-aug-16-alberta-set-to-end-restrictions-1.5527222

They also said that 95% of hospitalizations were among the unvaccinated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 11:39:44 AM
Which is to treat it like a flu, which it is.

The health authority was subpoenaed, the government wrote they had nothing in regards to science to justify government mandated restrictions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 11:42:06 AM
Which is to treat it like a flu, which it is.

Incorrect.

Quote
The health authority was subpoenaed, the government wrote they had nothing in regards to science to justify government mandated restrictions.

Source?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 11:54:52 AM
Which is to treat it like a flu, which it is.

Incorrect.
Correct.

Quote
The health authority was subpoenaed, the government wrote they had nothing in regards to science to justify government mandated restrictions.

Source?
David Freiheit
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 12:07:27 PM
Which is to treat it like a flu, which it is.

Incorrect.
Correct.

Flus are not coronaviruses. This is a category error.
Quote

Quote
The health authority was subpoenaed, the government wrote they had nothing in regards to science to justify government mandated restrictions.

Source?
David Freiheit

Why don’t you post the YouTube video where he talks about it?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 12:09:44 PM
Which is to treat it like a flu, which it is.

Incorrect.
Correct.

Flus are not coronaviruses. This is a category error.
Flu is a respiratory illness.


Categorical fact.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 12:15:43 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 12:28:24 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 12:46:26 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 12:54:07 PM
I like how he throws out a name, assumes we all know the person and everything they say, then goes off on a point without providing a source of information behond his own word.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 02:15:51 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.

Like all other persons who offer up bs to begin with, more bs will surely follow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.

Quote
Like all other persons who offer up bs to begin with, more bs will surely follow.
Spoken from experience.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 03:16:20 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 03:34:18 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.

So... Lets ignore the mountains of evidence.

Tell me... What would be evidence of a pamdemic to you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 03:53:19 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.

So... Lets ignore the mountains of evidence.
Yes, you should learn to understand that when MSM opens its yap, it is untrustworthy.

"Mountains of evidence," are in place demonstrating this to be a fact beyond dispute.
Tell me... What would be evidence of a pamdemic to you?
The entire virus in isolation.

Not just pieces of it that have been put together in a lab.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 04:33:40 PM
Quote
The entire virus in isolation.

They have the entire genome of the virus. Why do you think the virus hasn’t been isolated?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 04:42:30 PM
Quote
The entire virus in isolation.

They have the entire genome of the virus.
Yeah, they have had the sequencing map since 2005.
Why do you think the virus hasn’t been isolated?
Perhaps because it hasn't in a single actual case.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 04:47:15 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.

So... Lets ignore the mountains of evidence.
Yes, you should learn to understand that when MSM opens its yap, it is untrustworthy.

"Mountains of evidence," are in place demonstrating this to be a fact beyond dispute.
Tell me... What would be evidence of a pamdemic to you?
The entire virus in isolation.

Not just pieces of it that have been put together in a lab.


Wait wait wait...

You consider something a pandemic if you can see the virus isolated?  Like in a petridish?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 04:56:46 PM
Wait wait wait...

You consider something a pandemic if you can see the virus isolated?  Like in a petridish?
What, you think this is unusual?

Not surprising, based on your prior posts, so here it is.

Hw would your doctor know you actually have MRSA or strep throat or(perhaps closer to your own experience),  syphilis or gonorrhea or chlamydia?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 05:03:28 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 05, 2021, 05:21:43 PM
Yes, you should learn to understand that when MSM opens its yap, it is untrustworthy.

What's one of your non-MSM trusted sources to get news and such?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 05:30:16 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
No need to move the goalposts.

Suddenly, the CDC forgets the first case of Covid in the US happened in 2019?

Renders the CDC images as false, by their own description.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 05:30:51 PM
Yes, you should learn to understand that when MSM opens its yap, it is untrustworthy.
What's one of your non-MSM trusted sources to get news and such?
I have no trusted source of news in particular.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on August 05, 2021, 05:34:04 PM
I have no trusted source of news in particular.

Can you define what a mainstream source is?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 05:40:21 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
No need to move the goalposts.

Suddenly, the CDC forgets the first case of Covid in the US happened in 2019?

Renders the CDC images as false, by their own description.

It doesn’t say the case was in 2020.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 05:45:23 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
No need to move the goalposts.

Suddenly, the CDC forgets the first case of Covid in the US happened in 2019?

Renders the CDC images as false, by their own description.

It doesn’t say the case was in 2020.
Yes, it does.

Creation date - 2020.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 05:48:15 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
No need to move the goalposts.

Suddenly, the CDC forgets the first case of Covid in the US happened in 2019?

Renders the CDC images as false, by their own description.

It doesn’t say the case was in 2020.
Yes, it does.

Creation date - 2020.

That would be the date the image was created.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 06:15:06 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
No need to move the goalposts.

Suddenly, the CDC forgets the first case of Covid in the US happened in 2019?

Renders the CDC images as false, by their own description.

It doesn’t say the case was in 2020.
Yes, it does.

Creation date - 2020.

That would be the date the image was created.
Well, the image would have actually been created the day it was examined.

Covid 19, first reported case in 2019.

How do you report it to be something if you haven't isolated the cause?

How do you isolate the cause unless you can see what it is?

Electron microscopes generate computer imagery, dated instantly on creation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 06:17:19 PM
It didn’t take long to find electron microscopes images of the virus:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/subtopic/images.htm

*steps back so there is room to move the goalposts*
No need to move the goalposts.

Suddenly, the CDC forgets the first case of Covid in the US happened in 2019?

Renders the CDC images as false, by their own description.

It doesn’t say the case was in 2020.
Yes, it does.

Creation date - 2020.

That would be the date the image was created.
Well, the image would have actually been created the day it was examined.

Source?

Quote
Covid 19, first reported case in 2019.

How do you report it to be something if you haven't isolated the cause?

How do you isolate the cause unless you can see what it is?

You study it in other ways that don’t involve an electron microscope

Quote
Electron microscopes generate computer imagery, dated instantly on creation.

Irrelevant.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 06:21:37 PM
Wait wait wait...

You consider something a pandemic if you can see the virus isolated?  Like in a petridish?
What, you think this is unusual?

Not surprising, based on your prior posts, so here it is.

Hw would your doctor know you actually have MRSA or strep throat or(perhaps closer to your own experience),  syphilis or gonorrhea or chlamydia?

..... Yes.  Yes it is unusual.  Ok, you need to learn words.  Go down to your local library.  Ask them for a dictionary.  And look up the word 'Pandemic'.  Because you have no idea what it is.


As for how my doctor knows... Based on symptoms and possibly some chemical tests of my blood.  Remember, doctors were diagnosing illnesses before the discovery of DNA.  Which came before the electron microscope.  Also, no doctor takes a swap, sends it to a lab where they filter out all but viruses, map each one's gnome, then check it via a database.  Is that what you honestly think they do?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 06:58:59 PM
You know how electron microscopes create images, right?

Via a computer.

Making the date listed for image creation totally relevant.

Just another instance of the CDC pulling the RABBIT FROM THEIR ASS.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 05, 2021, 07:06:25 PM
Wait wait wait...

You consider something a pandemic if you can see the virus isolated?  Like in a petridish?
What, you think this is unusual?

Not surprising, based on your prior posts, so here it is.

Hw would your doctor know you actually have MRSA or strep throat or(perhaps closer to your own experience),  syphilis or gonorrhea or chlamydia?

..... Yes.  Yes it is unusual.  Ok, you need to learn words.  Go down to your local library.  Ask them for a dictionary.  And look up the word 'Pandemic'.  Because you have no idea what it is.


As for how my doctor knows... Based on symptoms and possibly some chemical tests of my blood.  Remember, doctors were diagnosing illnesses before the discovery of DNA.  Which came before the electron microscope.  Also, no doctor takes a swap, sends it to a lab where they filter out all but viruses, map each one's gnome, then check it via a database.  Is that what you honestly think they do?
No, they were not diagnosing illnesses. They administering treatments based on symptoms.

Jesus.

You need to just go lie down somewhere in the corner and take a rest.

The need to spread fear porn is overwhelming your ability to make cogent posts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2021, 07:41:08 PM
You know how electron microscopes create images, right?

Via a computer.

Making the date listed for image creation totally relevant.

Just another instance of the CDC pulling the RABBIT FROM THEIR ASS.

No because you have no evidence the image was created the same day the case was diagnosed. That’s the entire basis for your objection and you have no evidence for it. Perhaps start with the basics.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2021, 09:20:17 PM
Wait wait wait...

You consider something a pandemic if you can see the virus isolated?  Like in a petridish?
What, you think this is unusual?

Not surprising, based on your prior posts, so here it is.

Hw would your doctor know you actually have MRSA or strep throat or(perhaps closer to your own experience),  syphilis or gonorrhea or chlamydia?

..... Yes.  Yes it is unusual.  Ok, you need to learn words.  Go down to your local library.  Ask them for a dictionary.  And look up the word 'Pandemic'.  Because you have no idea what it is.


As for how my doctor knows... Based on symptoms and possibly some chemical tests of my blood.  Remember, doctors were diagnosing illnesses before the discovery of DNA.  Which came before the electron microscope.  Also, no doctor takes a swap, sends it to a lab where they filter out all but viruses, map each one's gnome, then check it via a database.  Is that what you honestly think they do?
No, they were not diagnosing illnesses. They administering treatments based on symptoms.
And how do they know which treatment to administer?  I'll give you a hint: It starts with D.

Seriously, this "I don't understand words" troll is old.  Find new material.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 06, 2021, 12:22:52 AM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.

That's a bold statement, given all the verifiable evidence we've seen of a pandemic. Which conservative voice is the puppeteer on this particular claim, if you don't mind my asking?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 06, 2021, 11:47:30 AM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.

That's a bold statement, given all the verifiable evidence we've seen of a pandemic. Which conservative voice is the puppeteer on this particular claim, if you don't mind my asking?
What verifiable evidence?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 06, 2021, 12:01:31 PM
Yeah Rushy!  Where's the youtube video that proves Lackey right?  Because that's the inly valid evidence acceptable!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 06, 2021, 12:12:59 PM
Tuberculosis and lung cancers are also respiratory illnesses that aren’t flus.
Alberta is taking the same approach as it would to any other respiratory illness.

That is a fact.

Context matters.  They are taking this approach because of the vaccine.
When you have no proof of a scientific nature in order to justify prior measures and are asked to provide it, but do not, then the reason why you are dropping it is evident.
Still waiting for this source that says they drooped it because Canada didn't provide any scientific evidence covid is dangerous.
No Canadian province has provided evidence for a pandemic.

Neither has any other country, for that matter.

That's a bold statement, given all the verifiable evidence we've seen of a pandemic. Which conservative voice is the puppeteer on this particular claim, if you don't mind my asking?
What verifiable evidence?

I mean, it's all over the place. Unless you're really dumb enough to think the worldwide spike in deaths we experienced last year was pure coincidence (lol). Which brilliant Conservative mind told you the smart thing to do would be to just argue that there is no evidence that we ever had a pandemic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 12:44:10 PM
There was a spike in deaths due to the lockdown and fear of contracting Covid, delaying hospital and clinic care.

https://www.kxl.com/study-shows-increase-in-non-covid-deaths-during-pandemic/

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People being afraid of going to the hospital means that there were excess deaths.

Also, they changed the way deaths were reported for Covid to include anyone who died 'with' Covid rather than 'of' Covid, unlike the reporting for the flu deaths and other diseases, inflating the Covid death toll.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 06, 2021, 03:22:12 PM
https://people.com/health/jennifer-aniston-hits-back-at-criticism-over-her-decision-to-cut-non-vaccinated-people-out-of-her-life/

Another reason to love Jennifer Aniston. You go girl.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on August 06, 2021, 03:27:37 PM
Soon to star in her next hit sitcom: ex-friends


Possibly the worst post on this entire site. I'm sorry you just read that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 06, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
Also, they changed the way deaths were reported for Covid to include anyone who died 'with' Covid rather than 'of' Covid
If you're not going to mention motorcycle crashes then don't even bother.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 06, 2021, 07:22:51 PM
There was a spike in deaths due to the lockdown and fear of contracting Covid, delaying hospital and clinic care.

What would you reckon, out of the 600k+ deaths attributed to Covid, the percentage is of real Covid positive patients versus those who actually are misrepresented as dying of Covid when in actuality they died due to the lockdown and fear of contracting Covid, delaying hospital and clinic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 07:49:14 PM
I reckon that the pandemic is a overhyped falsity, as evidenced by:

- Mainly old and chronically ill people being affected by the 'deadly' disease
- Flu cases going away during the period of Covid
- CDC admitting that the PCR tests can't differentiate between influenza and Covid

The flu cases were way down in 2020-2021 flu season, leading some to believe that the statistics are being manipulated or the Covid tests are cross-testing with existing diseases.

(https://i.imgur.com/5DaXiCK.jpg)

Another source:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/10/flu-cases-historically-low-during-covid-what-expect-fall/7088318002/

Quote
Public health and clinical laboratories reported 2,038 flu cases during the season from Sept. 27, 2020, to April 24, 2021, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency estimated about 38 million people were sick with the flu during the 2019-2020 season.

“It’s been an amazing year,” said Dr. John Swartzberg, a professor emeritus of infectious diseases at the University of California, Berkeley in the school of public health. “In all my years of being a flu watcher … I’ve never seen anything like this.”

The article also attributes the cause to "mask wearing," "social distancing" and "hand washing".

Quote
A year full of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing and staying at home to prevent coronavirus spread rendered the 2020-2021 influenza season practically nonexistent.

Assuming that people even did it right (they didn't, almost no one practices the proper hand washing hygiene when putting on and taking off masks that surgeons perform) why does that defeat the flu, but not Covid?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

(https://i.imgur.com/gx2jiLr.png)

Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

So the CDC declared it will withdraw its request for PCR test use on an emergency basis on December 31, and strongly suggests labs adopt new tests capable of "differentiation between COVlD-19 and influenza."

They seem to be quietly admitting PCR tests can't differentiate between COVlD-19 and the flu.

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

(https://i.imgur.com/EYJQS1Z.jpg)

This appears to explain why the flu completely vanished during Covid, as previously discussed.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2021, 08:16:53 PM
It does not say PCR tests can’t differentiate between flu and COVID. It suggests the replacement should be able to test for both in a single sample.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid19-pcr-test-idUSL1N2P42U5
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 08:31:51 PM
It does not say PCR tests can’t differentiate between flu and COVID. It suggests the replacement should be able to test for both in a single sample.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid19-pcr-test-idUSL1N2P42U5

They want a test that can differentiate between the two. This suggests that it's not capable of that. That's why the request to use it is getting recalled.

You linked me to one of your liberal fact check sites from an anonymous author. You may as well be citing something that your child said.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 06, 2021, 08:36:51 PM
I reckon that the pandemic is a overhyped falsity, as evidenced by:

- Mainly old and chronically ill people being affected by the 'deadly' disease
- Flu cases going away during the period of Covid
- CDC admitting that the PCR tests can't differentiate between influenza and Covid

I asked about your take on specifically the 600k+ US deaths attributed to Covid and what percentage you think is false attribution? Just ballpark it. Something more specific than just an "overhyped falsity".

As for your third bullet, "CDC admitting that the PCR tests can't differentiate between influenza and Covid," that seems to be an actual overhyped falsity and a major misinterpretation.

From the Kaiser Foundation:

Claims That CDC’s PCR Test Can’t Tell Covid From Flu Are Wrong
https://khn.org/news/article/fact-check-cdc-pcr-covid-test-distinguishes-from-flu-eua-request-withdrawal/

There' a lot of info in the article that shows these FB meme claims to be demonstratively false. I'll try to summarize the gist, but do read the full article. It's not long but covers off quite comprehensively on why the meme claims are bunk.

The CDC requested the FDA cancel the EUA for the original PCR assay/protocol they published (not manufactured) in Feb 2020 in lieu of introducing a new PCR assay that tests for not only Covid but various Influenza viruses as well.   

In short, it's not that the original PCR tests couldn't differentiate between Covid and Influenza strains it's that it ONLY tested for Covid and Covid alone. The thinking now by the CDC with the new assay is that it actually looks for and differentiates between Covid AND various Influenza strains as they feel it's more important, more efficient, more cost effective to have one assay for Covid AND Influenza.

"In the lab alert, the CDC said it was withdrawing the EUA request because, rather than testing only for the covid virus, it wants labs to test people for multiple viruses simultaneously, using what is known as a “multiplexed method.” The CDC’s 2019-nCoV RT-PCR panel tests only for the covid virus.

“Such assays can facilitate continued testing for both influenza and SARS-CoV-2 and can save both time and resources as we head into influenza season,” noted the alert regarding the multiplexed method.
"

They didn’t withdraw the EUA because the test wasn’t working,” said Whittier. “They just wanted people to look for other viruses as well.” Whittier is Dr. Susan Whittier, PhD, a professor of pathology and cell biology at Columbia University Irving Medical Center.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 08:50:26 PM
Wow, an article from someone who "recently graduated with her master’s in health journalism" and takes from someone with a PhD who was not actually directly involved. That must be true!

On the FDA's own website for the emergency authorization for the PCR Diagnostic Panel they say that they used other viruses to calibrate the machine, rather than Covid.

https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download

(https://i.imgur.com/D9uBJkf.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 06, 2021, 08:55:56 PM
You linked me to one of your liberal fact check sites from an anonymous author. You may as well be citing something that your child said.
lol, you regularly link people to Wiki pages which you wrote.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 08:59:03 PM
You linked me to one of your liberal fact check sites from an anonymous author. You may as well be citing something that your child said.
lol, you regularly link people to Wiki pages which you wrote.

Actually, most of it is cited from other sources. But glad to hear that your argument is to implicitly agree with me and resort to a what-about-um.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
It does not say PCR tests can’t differentiate between flu and COVID. It suggests the replacement should be able to test for both in a single sample.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid19-pcr-test-idUSL1N2P42U5

They want a test that can differentiate between the two. This suggests that it's not capable of that. That's why the request to use it is getting recalled.

Your inference needs more than your suspicions to be taken seriously. The CDC report says nothing about PCR tests not being able to tell the difference between COVID. The CDC spokesperson said newer tests,that they are recommending, needs only a single sample to test for both.

Quote
You linked me to one of your liberal fact check sites from an anonymous author. You may as well be citing something that your child said.

If you are comparing Reuters, a reputable press service to a random kids pronouncements, then you’re a fucking moron. Are you a moron, Tom?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 09:43:16 PM
Your inference needs more than your suspicions to be taken seriously. The CDC report says nothing about PCR tests not being able to tell the difference between COVID. The CDC spokesperson said newer tests,that they are recommending, needs only a single sample to test for both.

Incorrect.

"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses"

It says differentiation right in the quote. This suggests that the current tests are not capable of differentiation.

Quote from: Rama Set
If you are comparing Reuters, a reputable press service to a random kids pronouncements, then you’re a fucking moron. Are you a moron, Tom?

::)

Yes, a reputable unbiased press service would definitely be spamming out twitter promotions for AOC merchandise: https://defconnews.com/2021/07/20/reuters-promotes-aocs-merch-store-like-its-real-news/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 06, 2021, 09:53:11 PM
Actually, most of it is cited from other sources.
You spelled “dishonestly cherry picked” wrong :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 10:01:11 PM
Aside from being a clear leftist shill organization, the CEO of Reuters is also a director of Pfizer. We definitely need to trust him for our Covid and vaccine facts! No conflict there.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-conspiracy-covid/fact-check-there-is-still-no-evidence-of-a-covid-19-conspiracy-idUSL2N2O41ME

(https://i.imgur.com/VmQLrzk.png)

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-no-evidence-that-pfizers-covi/fact-check-no-evidence-that-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-causes-alzheimers-disease-idUSL1N2MZ382

(https://i.imgur.com/FJE3M4h.png)

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/authors/jim-smith

(https://i.imgur.com/ntjRTQx.png)

Part of the World Economic Forum too. The same people who state on their website that they want to use Covid as an opportunity to push their 'great reset' of capitalism. Still no defense on that topic from any of you, despite my repeated requests to defend those beliefs.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
You spelled “dishonestly cherry picked” wrong

Really, what was cherry picked? Take it to another thread if you don't actually have an argument on the thread's topic and want to talk about something that is off topic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 06, 2021, 10:10:27 PM
Wow, an article from someone who "recently graduated with her master’s in health journalism" and takes from someone with a PhD who was not actually directly involved. That must be true!

Yes, the article was written by a journalist as that's what a lot of journalists do, write articles. Often referred to as "reporting". Within her reporting, several individuals, specifically Dr. Susan Whittier, PhD, a professor of pathology and cell biology at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, Dr. Christopher Polage, an associate professor of pathology at Duke University,  Kelly Wroblewski, director of infectious disease programs at the Association of Public Health Laboratories, & FDA spokesperson Jim McKinney are all quoted as explaining exactly what I wrote: The claims that the original CDC PCR test protocol couldn't differentiate between Covid and Influenza are false. As the original CDC PCR test protocol ONLY tested for covid. I'm pretty sure individually and collectively these folks are little bit more dialed into this topic than your Mike Huckabee is.

On the FDA's own website for the emergency authorization for the PCR Diagnostic Panel they say that they used other viruses to calibrate the machine, rather than Covid.

https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download

(https://i.imgur.com/D9uBJkf.jpg)

At the time of the CDC creating the original PCR test protocols I don't think Covid had been isolated yet. I think one of the earliest or the earliest isolation was from the first reported case in South Korea in late February, 2020. Revision 01 of your FDA doc (The one you cited is Revision 7) was "Status APPROVED Effective 2/4/2020. A few weeks before the first reported/shared isolation.

"From the same document (V7), page 4: "The CDC 2019-nCoV Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel is a molecular in vitro diagnostic test that aids in the detection and diagnosis of SARS-CoV-2 infection and is based on widely used nucleic acid amplification technology."

Nucleic acid isothermal amplification technologies: a review
"Nucleic acid amplification technologies are used in the field of molecular biology and recombinant DNA technologies. These techniques are used as leading methods in detecting and analyzing a small quantity of nucleic acids. The polymerase chain reaction (PCR) is the most widely used method for DNA amplification for detection and identification of infectious diseases, genetic disorders and other research purposes."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18260008/

From page 10, "This test has been authorized only for the detection of nucleic acid from SARS CoV-2, not for any other viruses or pathogens"

So your memes and Mike Huckabee's claims are bunk.

From page 43, "In summary, the assessment of homology between available sequences of SARS CoV-2 as of June 6, 2021 and the CDC panel assay primers and probes shows that the risk of significant loss in reactivity and false negative results is very low due to the absence of significant numbers of mismatches. The design of the primers and probes, with melting temperatures of >60°C and an annealing temperature of 55°C, can tolerate up to two mismatches depending on location without significant loss in assay sensitivity."

So they were able to confirm that their early protocol was in line with actual sequenced Covid samples.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2021, 10:12:41 PM
Your inference needs more than your suspicions to be taken seriously. The CDC report says nothing about PCR tests not being able to tell the difference between COVID. The CDC spokesperson said newer tests,that they are recommending, needs only a single sample to test for both.

Incorrect.

"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses"

It says differentiation right in the quote. This suggests that the current tests are not capable of differentiation.

That’s not how English works. You keep spinning that narrative though.



Quote
Quote from: Rama Set
If you are comparing Reuters, a reputable press service to a random kids pronouncements, then you’re a fucking moron. Are you a moron, Tom?

::)

Yes, a reputable unbiased press service would definitely be spamming out twitter promotions for AOC merchandise: https://defconnews.com/2021/07/20/reuters-promotes-aocs-merch-store-like-its-real-news/

A complete non sequitur. You would want to show that their liberal bias is present in this fact check.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2021, 10:19:21 PM
From page 10, "This test has been authorized only for the detection of nucleic acid from SARS CoV-2, not for any other viruses or pathogens"

So your memes and Mike Huckabee's claims are bunk.

From page 43, "In summary, the assessment of homology between available sequences of SARS CoV-2 as of June 6, 2021 and the CDC panel assay primers and probes shows that the risk of significant loss in reactivity and false negative results is very low due to the absence of significant numbers of mismatches. The design of the primers and probes, with melting temperatures of >60°C and an annealing temperature of 55°C, can tolerate up to two mismatches depending on location without significant loss in assay sensitivity."

So they were able to confirm that their early protocol was in line with actual sequenced Covid samples.

So your argument is to admit that the test isn't actually based on Covid, but a different virus, and you cite someone who says its close enough to Covid to avoid a 'false negative' and we just have to assume it's not close to other viruses?

A super smart and very strong argument there.  ::)

You also argue that the test is "authorized only" to detect Covid. Is that even an argument?

Quote from: Rama Set
A complete non sequitur. You would want to show that their liberal bias is present in this fact check.

What? Their articles are clearly left leaning. You just cited them to promote your leftist beliefs. They promote AOC merchandise and the CEO is a director of Pfizer. Please explain why this is a reputable unbiased source of information, considering their leftist and vaccine connections.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 06, 2021, 11:21:41 PM
From page 10, "This test has been authorized only for the detection of nucleic acid from SARS CoV-2, not for any other viruses or pathogens"

So your memes and Mike Huckabee's claims are bunk.

From page 43, "In summary, the assessment of homology between available sequences of SARS CoV-2 as of June 6, 2021 and the CDC panel assay primers and probes shows that the risk of significant loss in reactivity and false negative results is very low due to the absence of significant numbers of mismatches. The design of the primers and probes, with melting temperatures of >60°C and an annealing temperature of 55°C, can tolerate up to two mismatches depending on location without significant loss in assay sensitivity."

So they were able to confirm that their early protocol was in line with actual sequenced Covid samples.

So your argument is to admit that the test isn't actually based on Covid, but a different virus, and you cite someone who says its close enough to Covid to avoid a 'false negative' and we just have to assume it's not close to other viruses?

A super smart and very strong argument there.  ::)

To be honest, I'm not virologist, so I'm not sure exactly how it works. But it seems that they didn't test the assay protocol with just a randomly selected virus like you make it out to be. Like I cited before, "The CDC 2019-nCoV Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel is a molecular in vitro diagnostic test that aids in the detection and diagnosis of SARS-CoV-2 infection and is based on widely used nucleic acid amplification technology." That tech in bold seems to be standard operating procedure for how all PCR tests are crafted.

It's way more complicated, advanced, and comprehensive than what you're asserting. Which is to be expected from you.

You also argue that the test is "authorized only" to detect Covid. Is that even an argument?

Yep, I'm gonna go with Dr. Susan Whittier, PhD, a professor of pathology and cell biology at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, Dr. Christopher Polage, an associate professor of pathology at Duke University,  Kelly Wroblewski, director of infectious disease programs at the Association of Public Health Laboratories, & FDA spokesperson Jim McKinney who are all in the CDC PCR protocol only tests for Covid camp. And you can stick with Mike Huckabee's claim.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 12:42:28 AM
What? Their articles are clearly left leaning. You just cited them to promote your leftist beliefs.

The reliability of COVID tests isn’t a political issue. It really is true for you: when you are a hammer, everything is a nail.

Quote
They promote AOC merchandise and the CEO is a director of Pfizer. Please explain why this is a reputable unbiased source of information, considering their leftist and vaccine connections.

One, being left leaning doesn’t make one untrustworthy, that’s idiotic; second what does a PCR test have to do with vaccines?

Finally, having an editorial slant isn’t what makes a source untrustworthy. You obviously agree with this because you never criticize sources you agree with for their editorial slant, you absolute hypocrite.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 07, 2021, 01:12:26 AM
Quote from: stack
To be honest, I'm not virologist, so I'm not sure exactly how it works.

Ah, so you have progressed to the "I don't know what I'm talking about" argument. Very persuasive.

Quote from: Rama Set
Finally, having an editorial slant isn’t what makes a source untrustworthy. You obviously agree with this because you never criticize sources you agree with for their editorial slant, you absolute hypocrite.

If you ever disagree with my sources, feel free to Reee about it.

Here is an accepted criteria for source credibility by the University of Maryland. I went ahead and answered the prompts for you based on that Reuters page (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid19-pcr-test-idUSL1N2P42U5):

https://sites.umgc.edu/library/libhow/credibility.cfm

Quote
Articles

The definition of a credible source can change depending on the discipline, but in general, for academic writing, a credible source is one that is unbiased and is backed up with evidence. When writing a research paper, always use and cite credible sources. Use this checklist to determine if an article is credible or not:

Is the source in-depth (more than a page or two), with an abstract, a reference list, and documented research or data?

No - Brief article advertised as a '5 min read'

Who is the audience (researchers, professors, students, general population, professionals in a specific field)?

General Population

What is the purpose of the source (provide information or report original research or experiments, to entertain or persuade the general public, or provide news or information specific to a trade or industry)?

Persuade the general public - a 'fact check' article

Who are the authors? Are they respected and well-known in the field? Are they easily identifiable? Have they written about other similar topics? What are their credentials?

Anonymous author

Is the source reputable? Is it published on a reputable, non-biased web site, or in a peer-reviewed, scholarly journal, and not from a newspaper, blog, or wiki?

No - "Reuters is an international news organization owned by Thomson Reuters"

No - Leftist editorial slant, as admitted by Rama Set

Is the source current for your topic?

Yes

Is there supporting documentation (graphs, charts, illustrations or other supporting documentation)?

No
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 01:26:59 AM
Tom, we aren’t writing academic papers, you… you do know that right?  That being said, my fact check is more in depth than your shitty interpretation of a single sentence from the CDC. You are in your self-owning phase I see.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 07, 2021, 01:38:03 AM
Tom, we aren’t writing academic papers, you… you do know that right?

It says it's for academic writing. It definitely seemed like you were trying to teach us something here.

If you want to disclaim what what you write and cite is not meant to academically inform, feel free. You can put that in your signature and continue to spew garbage sources.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 01:46:35 AM
Tom, we aren’t writing academic papers, you… you do know that right?

It says it's for academic writing. It definitely seemed like you were trying to teach us something here.

If you want to disclaim what what you write and cite is not meant to academically inform, feel free. You can put that in your signature link and continue to spew garbage sources.

We are debating on a FE site. Neither of us is doing anything academic. I’m too flippant and you’re too incompetent for this to be taken seriously lol

That being said, all you’ve done is highlight a sentence and said “See??? I’m riiiiight!!!!!”

But hey, don’t believe Reuters, how about the medical professionals at The Cleveland Clinic, a not for profit research hospital who in November 2020 said PCR tests are the most accurate and reliable test available.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diagnostics/21462-covid-19-and-pcr-testing
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 07, 2021, 08:10:03 AM
Quote from: stack
To be honest, I'm not virologist, so I'm not sure exactly how it works.
Ah, so you have progressed to the "I don't know what I'm talking about" argument. Very persuasive.

No, I've progressed to you and I don't really don't know what we're talking about, equally so. That's why I'll stick with my Dr. Susan Whittier, PhD, a professor of pathology and cell biology at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, Dr. Christopher Polage, an associate professor of pathology at Duke University, Kelly Wroblewski, director of infectious disease programs at the Association of Public Health Laboratories, & FDA spokesperson Jim McKinney who are all in the CDC PCR protocol only tests for Covid camp. You know, experts in the actual relevant fields to the topic at hand.

And you can stick with Mike Huckabee's dubious no-expertise, no-knowledge, claim, that from the perspective of an American politician, Baptist minister, political commentator with no expertise in the relevant fields to the topic at hand.

Seems appropriate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 11:28:59 AM
https://www.asrm.org/news-and-publications/news-and-research/press-releases-and-bulletins/new-study-reveals-covid-vaccine-does-not-cause-female-sterility/

In case anyone was worried
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on August 07, 2021, 12:54:42 PM
Quote from: stack
To be honest, I'm not virologist, so I'm not sure exactly how it works.
Ah, so you have progressed to the "I don't know what I'm talking about" argument. Very persuasive.

Please tell us what qualifications you have, Tom.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 07, 2021, 04:54:17 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/opinions/how-to-move-people-from-hesitant-to-vaccinated-bregman-jacobson/index.html

I'm not sure this guy "gets it".

At this point, I'm not lashing out at the unvaccinated in the hopes that it will change their minds. These morons are too thick-headed and mired in conspiracy theory groupthink to ever expect them to change.

I just want them to know they're assholes, and make sure that, even though their feeble little brains are not sophisticated enough to understand it, I've at least articulated to them why they're assholes. At that point the decision to continue being an asshole (which is a decision you can bet they will make, which is why I'm beyond trying to change minds) is theirs. And that's why they are worthy of being treated as pariahs (well that and the fact that it really is just the medically responsible thing to do).

I hope to see lots more draconian restrictions imposed on the unvaccinated in the coming months. Not because I think the assholes will stop being assholes, but because I just want to see them suffer for being assholes. They deserve it!

So yeah, I'm well aware that I'm not changing any minds by calling these idiots out. It's just cathartic, and I suspect that's how a lot of people who are doing it see it. And I will continue doing it, only because it feels good. Fuck 'em.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 04:57:19 PM
As Tom unintentionally pointed out, a good chunk (most?) of the unvaccinated are not hesitant, but don’t have as good access. Efforts should focus on them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 07, 2021, 05:32:31 PM
As Tom unintentionally pointed out, a good chunk (most?) of the unvaccinated are not hesitant, but don’t have as good access. Efforts should focus on them.

That's fine. It's just the loud assholes talking about their rights being violated or crying about horrible consequences that exist purely in the imagination that I direct my anger at, because (in this country at least) there seem to be a lot of them, and many of them love flaunting it. Fuck 'em.

Honestly I recognize that the bigger problem is that there are whole large regions of the world with limited access to the vaccine, and I imagine that's where the nasty variants are really going to originate, so of course some priority must be given at this point to get those places the vaccine. When I heard recently how few people in places like Japan and South Africa have been vaccinated I was shocked. Why?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 07, 2021, 06:11:43 PM
I don't really don't know what we're talking about

So according to you, you don't know what you're talking about, admit that plainly, and yet you claim that you are capable of deciphering truth from fiction and opinion from fact on this topic. Not a compelling argument there. I would suggest that you should start by having a clue of what you're talking about.

But hey, don’t believe Reuters, how about the medical professionals at The Cleveland Clinic, a not for profit research hospital who in November 2020 said PCR tests are the most accurate and reliable test available.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diagnostics/21462-covid-19-and-pcr-testing

You linked me to the testing facility of a clinic in Cleveland which states that the PCR test is "the most accurate test available for COVID-19 detection".

How is that different than linking me to the website of CVS or Walgreens? They also employ qualified people to administer the tests and 'inform' the public.

Typical, horrid sources.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 07, 2021, 07:42:06 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/opinions/how-to-move-people-from-hesitant-to-vaccinated-bregman-jacobson/index.html

I'm not sure this guy "gets it".

At this point, I'm not lashing out at the unvaccinated in the hopes that it will change their minds. These morons are too thick-headed and mired in conspiracy theory groupthink to ever expect them to change.

I just want them to know they're assholes, and make sure that, even though their feeble little brains are not sophisticated enough to understand it, I've at least articulated to them why they're assholes. At that point the decision to continue being an asshole (which is a decision you can bet they will make, which is why I'm beyond trying to change minds) is theirs. And that's why they are worthy of being treated as pariahs (well that and the fact that it really is just the medically responsible thing to do).

I hope to see lots more draconian restrictions imposed on the unvaccinated in the coming months. Not because I think the assholes will stop being assholes, but because I just want to see them suffer for being assholes. They deserve it!

So yeah, I'm well aware that I'm not changing any minds by calling these idiots out. It's just cathartic, and I suspect that's how a lot of people who are doing it see it. And I will continue doing it, only because it feels good. Fuck 'em.
I hope the vaccinated catch the delta variant quickly and suffer convulsions and long lasting effects.

Fuck em.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 07:46:00 PM
Don’t you think it’s not dangerous at all?  Seems like a feeble curse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 07, 2021, 08:05:35 PM
I don't really don't know what we're talking about

So according to you, you don't know what you're talking about, admit that plainly, and yet you claim that you are capable of deciphering truth from fiction and opinion from fact on this topic. Not a compelling argument there. I would suggest that you should start by having a clue of what you're talking about.

I would suggest that rather than you paying attention to silly memes and Mike Huckabee, you might want to expand you intellectual curiosity toward people that actually work and research in the fields relevant to the topic being discussed.  You might actually learn something of value and perhaps be able to decipher truth from fiction - Something you haven't been able to demonstrate yet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 07, 2021, 09:23:33 PM
Don’t you think it’s not dangerous at all?
There are a significant amount of other things more dangerous than something that kills at a 1 percent rate.

Nice double negative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 09:50:15 PM
Don’t you think it’s not dangerous at all?
There are a significant amount of other things more dangerous than something that kills at a 1 percent rate.

Like the vaccin… oh no wait. That’s not even close to as dangerous as COVID.

Quote
Nice double negative.

How does it feel to have to stoop so low?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 07, 2021, 09:55:59 PM
 So much for the extensive clinical trials you were trying to praise, Rama.

Pure, disgusting crap posted by you once again.

"Even though far from being comprehensive or even adequate, this document has rather far-reaching implications: it shows that Pfizer— as well as the authorities that were apprised of these data— must have recognized the grave risks of adverse events after vaccination even before the onset of clinical trials. Nevertheless, Pfizer’s own clinical trials failed to monitor any of the clinical risks that were clearly evident from these data and the regulatory authorities failed to enforce proper standards of oversight. This dual failure has caused the most grievous harm to the public.
1The same data may also have been filed in the U.S. and other wester countries, but the FDA and the corresponding health regulators did not release them to the public. "

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/randyhillier/pages/958/attachments/original/1628198186/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf?1628198186
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 07, 2021, 10:00:25 PM
Don’t you think it’s not dangerous at all?
There are a significant amount of other things more dangerous than something that kills at a 1 percent rate.

Like the vaccin… oh no wait. That’s not even close to as dangerous as COVID.
We don't know that yet. 70 percent of hospitalizations are vaccinated people.

@Dr. Eugene Sloan 73% in Massachusetts ICU are double vaccinated so please do not mislead others.
Quote
Nice double negative.

How does it feel to have to stoop so low?
I obviously feel great, better than you even, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 07, 2021, 10:12:50 PM
I don't really don't know what we're talking about

So according to you, you don't know what you're talking about, admit that plainly, and yet you claim that you are capable of deciphering truth from fiction and opinion from fact on this topic. Not a compelling argument there. I would suggest that you should start by having a clue of what you're talking about.

I would suggest that rather than you paying attention to silly memes and Mike Huckabee, you might want to expand you intellectual curiosity toward people that actually work and research in the fields relevant to the topic being discussed.  You might actually learn something of value and perhaps be able to decipher truth from fiction - Something you haven't been able to demonstrate yet.
And I would suggest you commence actual reading, prior to typing.

The source Tom provided is legitimate and has a wealth of information from doctors who went to something called a school, a place that you're probably unfamiliar with at this point, based on your contributions on this forum.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 10:47:59 PM
Don’t you think it’s not dangerous at all?
There are a significant amount of other things more dangerous than something that kills at a 1 percent rate.

Like the vaccin… oh no wait. That’s not even close to as dangerous as COVID.
We don't know that yet. 70 percent of hospitalizations are vaccinated people.

@Dr. Eugene Sloan 73% in Massachusetts ICU are double vaccinated so please do not mislead others.

The recent mortality and morbidity report from the CDC showed that 74% of new COVID in Barnstable, Massachusetts were vaccinated but only 4 of them were hospitalized. So actually 80% were hospitalized in a statistically insignificant anecdote. (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w)

I look forward to you saying how super significant this small sample size is.

Quote
Quote
Nice double negative.

How does it feel to have to stoop so low?
I obviously feel great, better than you even, I'm sure.

I’m glad you are so sure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 07, 2021, 11:41:07 PM
Don’t you think it’s not dangerous at all?
There are a significant amount of other things more dangerous than something that kills at a 1 percent rate.

Like the vaccin… oh no wait. That’s not even close to as dangerous as COVID.
We don't know that yet. 70 percent of hospitalizations are vaccinated people.

@Dr. Eugene Sloan 73% in Massachusetts ICU are double vaccinated so please do not mislead others.

The recent mortality and morbidity report from the CDC showed that 74% of new COVID in Barnstable, Massachusetts were vaccinated but only 4 of them were hospitalized. So actually 80% were hospitalized in a statistically insignificant anecdote. (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w)

I look forward to you saying how super significant this small sample size is.
73 percent of the ICU patients being double vaccinated and being treated for covid is very super significant.

Your BS is irrelevant to that fact.
Quote
Quote
Nice double negative.

How does it feel to have to stoop so low?
I obviously feel great, better than you even, I'm sure.

I’m glad you are so sure.
Terrific! Probably the first time you've posted a fact on this forum!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2021, 11:57:36 PM
Hey, a vaccinated person got hit by a car. Using Lackey Logic, vaccination makes it inevitable that a car will hit you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 08, 2021, 12:13:00 AM
Hey, a vaccinated person got hit by a car. Using Logic, vaccination makes it inevitable that a car will hit you.
Using the paper cited logical thing to do. The paper draws no statistical references to cars.

Everyone can now officially ignore your obvious trolling
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 08, 2021, 12:15:45 AM
[quote author=Rama Set link=topic=17611.msg244725#msg244725 date=1628380656
Hey, a vaccinated person got hit by a car. Using  Logic, vaccination makes it inevitable that a car will hit you.
Using the paper cited logical thing to do. The paper draws no statistical references to cars.

Everyone can now officially ignore your obvious trolling
[/quote]

Firstly, learn to be bbcode. If you are so mad you can’t post coherently, take a break. Second, drawing broad inferences from a sample size of five is just horrendously off the mark.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 08, 2021, 12:20:43 AM

Firstly, learn to be bbcode. If you are so mad you can’t post coherently, take a break. Second, drawing broad inferences from a sample size of five is just horrendously off the mark.
Stop trolling.

I fixed it.

73 percent of ICU PATIENTS IN MASSACHUSETTS were double vaccinated.

The paper I cited is legitimate.

You are trolling and got nothing as usual.

Your break will come.

I feel much better and actually am better than you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 08, 2021, 01:31:38 AM

Firstly, learn to be bbcode. If you are so mad you can’t post coherently, take a break. Second, drawing broad inferences from a sample size of five is just horrendously off the mark.
Stop trolling.

I fixed it.

Nice.

Quote
73 percent of ICU PATIENTS IN MASSACHUSETTS were double vaccinated.

The paper I cited is legitimate.

You didn’t cite a paper. You mentioned a name. I cited a paper that took in to account a rather small sample size. Remember when you bawwwwed about sample sizes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials, that time you pulled numbers from a generalized statement about trials. Pepperidge Farms remembers. 

Quote
You are trolling and got nothing as usual.

Your break will come.

K

Quote
I feel much better and actually am better than you.

K
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 08, 2021, 01:42:53 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/opinions/how-to-move-people-from-hesitant-to-vaccinated-bregman-jacobson/index.html

I'm not sure this guy "gets it".

At this point, I'm not lashing out at the unvaccinated in the hopes that it will change their minds. These morons are too thick-headed and mired in conspiracy theory groupthink to ever expect them to change.

I just want them to know they're assholes, and make sure that, even though their feeble little brains are not sophisticated enough to understand it, I've at least articulated to them why they're assholes. At that point the decision to continue being an asshole (which is a decision you can bet they will make, which is why I'm beyond trying to change minds) is theirs. And that's why they are worthy of being treated as pariahs (well that and the fact that it really is just the medically responsible thing to do).

I hope to see lots more draconian restrictions imposed on the unvaccinated in the coming months. Not because I think the assholes will stop being assholes, but because I just want to see them suffer for being assholes. They deserve it!

So yeah, I'm well aware that I'm not changing any minds by calling these idiots out. It's just cathartic, and I suspect that's how a lot of people who are doing it see it. And I will continue doing it, only because it feels good. Fuck 'em.
I hope responsible, patriotic Americans die. Fuck 'em.

Of course you do. Why would anybody have expected anything else?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 08, 2021, 04:36:08 AM
I don't really don't know what we're talking about

So according to you, you don't know what you're talking about, admit that plainly, and yet you claim that you are capable of deciphering truth from fiction and opinion from fact on this topic. Not a compelling argument there. I would suggest that you should start by having a clue of what you're talking about.

I would suggest that rather than you paying attention to silly memes and Mike Huckabee, you might want to expand you intellectual curiosity toward people that actually work and research in the fields relevant to the topic being discussed.  You might actually learn something of value and perhaps be able to decipher truth from fiction - Something you haven't been able to demonstrate yet.

You just told us that you don't know what you're talking about on this subject. Now you think that you can give advice about things you are clueless about too? Amazing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 08, 2021, 08:32:16 AM
The source Tom provided is legitimate and has a wealth of information from doctors who went to something called a school

I see. But elsewhere…

Doctors will spew the corporate line just as much as the next guy

lol
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 08, 2021, 08:56:50 AM
73 percent of ICU PATIENTS IN MASSACHUSETTS were double vaccinated.
Ok. Let’s say that number is correct.
To understand whether that is significant you have to know more than just that number.
How many people were in ICU? What is that 73% of?

And, most importantly, how many people have been vaccinated in that State and which people have been vaccinated?

When they did clinical trials of the vaccine to assess its efficacy, they made sure the population of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people was identical, or as close as possible.
In real life for obvious reasons they’ve been vaccinating the most vulnerable people first. So you’re comparing two populations - vaccinated vs unvaccinated - with very different age and health profiles.

What percentage of vaccinated people get a pension vs unvaccinated? It’s likely to be quite high for the vaccinated group and low for the unvaccinated because it’s older people they vaccinated as a priority. That doesn’t mean the vaccine causes you to get a pension.

You’re getting excited about a number because you think it backs up your opinions, but you haven’t even tried to understand or analyse the number. It’s the US election all over again. Remember the “there’s no way these States could have swung, there’s a one in a bajillion chance” nonsense? That was making the same mistake. It was comparing the postal vote population with the on the day population. It was known before Election Day that those populations were very different in terms of how they were likely to vote so comparing them and expecting the split to be the same is erroneous.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 08, 2021, 10:44:19 AM
Also remember: if 75% of a state is vaccinated with two doses, 75% of people in thr ICU will probably be double vaccinated.  If not more.  Just like if 99% of people who live in Kansas are American, guess what the percentage of Americans will be in the hospital?

Correlation is not causation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 08, 2021, 11:00:35 AM
So much for the extensive clinical trials you were trying to praise, Rama.

Pure, disgusting crap posted by you once again.

"Even though far from being comprehensive or even adequate, this document has rather far-reaching implications: it shows that Pfizer— as well as the authorities that were apprised of these data— must have recognized the grave risks of adverse events after vaccination even before the onset of clinical trials. Nevertheless, Pfizer’s own clinical trials failed to monitor any of the clinical risks that were clearly evident from these data and the regulatory authorities failed to enforce proper standards of oversight. This dual failure has caused the most grievous harm to the public.
1The same data may also have been filed in the U.S. and other wester countries, but the FDA and the corresponding health regulators did not release them to the public. "

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/randyhillier/pages/958/attachments/original/1628198186/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf?1628198186

And you called us out for posting documentation on "unofficial sites".  Can't get anymore unofficial than your own google drive. XD

Also: an Ortheopedist and a retired microbiologist probably aren't the best group to be reliable in vaccine results.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 08, 2021, 11:33:20 AM
Also remember: if 75% of a state is vaccinated with two doses, 75% of people in thr ICU will probably be double vaccinated.  If not more.  Just like if 99% of people who live in Kansas are American, guess what the percentage of Americans will be in the hospital?

Correlation is not causation.

No, vaccines are meant to reduce the risk of hospitalization. Your example implies it staying level.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 08, 2021, 12:01:12 PM
Also remember: if 75% of a state is vaccinated with two doses, 75% of people in thr ICU will probably be double vaccinated.  If not more.  Just like if 99% of people who live in Kansas are American, guess what the percentage of Americans will be in the hospital?

Correlation is not causation.

No, vaccines are meant to reduce the risk of hospitalization. Your example implies it staying level.
Kinda the point. 
Not stating what they are in the hospital for implies a link that isn't there. 
Example: 100% of all vaccinated, pregnant women, will visit the hospital within 9 months for a major medical procedure. 
The procedure?  Giving birth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 09, 2021, 03:51:58 AM
Vaccinated people in Italy burning their vaccine passports.

https://twitter.com/calvinrobinson/status/1424258413400313856
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2021, 06:36:02 AM
Vaccinated people in Italy burning their vaccine passports.

https://twitter.com/calvinrobinson/status/1424258413400313856
Nope.
Wow, its amazing how, even on something you'd support, you still find a tweet that's lying.

So that is a protest, in italy.  That's true.
However, they are burning green pieces of paper to protest the vaccine passport requirements.  They aren't doing it in solidarity, nor are they burning anything official.  It's literally just a protest by people who don't want the vaccine passport requirements.  Several countries have similar protests.

Not that they could burn it anyway as its digital.
You can also get a paper document stating you have had a negative test result in the last few days.  Or proof of prior infection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/world/europe/italy-green-pass-vaccination-covid.html

In any case: If you're gonna post about a protest, please get it right.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 09, 2021, 08:41:39 AM
Not that they could burn it anyway as its digital.
You can also get a paper document stating you have had a negative test result in the last few days.  Or proof of prior infection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/world/europe/italy-green-pass-vaccination-covid.html

It says right in your link that the pass could be physical.

It's possible that they are burning blank pieces of paper, but that is irrelevant to the message. It is irrelevant to the message if someone is burning a fake dollar bill or a real one in a protest, for example.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2021, 09:04:59 AM
Not that they could burn it anyway as its digital.
You can also get a paper document stating you have had a negative test result in the last few days.  Or proof of prior infection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/world/europe/italy-green-pass-vaccination-covid.html

It says right in your link that the pass could be physical.
Yes yes, you can print out a piece of paper.  Still doesn't change the fact that none of them are doing that.  Unless they all decided to print it on green paper.

Quote
It's possible that they are burning blank pieces of paper, but that is irrelevant to the message. It is irrelevant to the message if someone is burning a fake dollar bill or a real one in a protest, for example.
Possible?  Yeah.  Yeah it's possible 100% possible.  Do you see anything written on those pieces of paper?  No.

And yes, it is irrelevant to the message.  But what I'm saying is... GET THE MESSAGE RIGHT!

The message is "We protest the government's limitations for unvaccinated people" (which is probably everyone at that protest) not "Vaccinated People burning their passports in solidarity".  One is about supporting other people, the other is about not being restricted themselves. 

Your trash tweet post is twisting their protest into your propoganda.  So why don't you be a decent human, admit you grabbed a tweet without fact checking, and go post a tweet with the proper reason why they're protesting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 09, 2021, 11:58:30 AM
So much for the extensive clinical trials you were trying to praise, Rama.

Pure, disgusting crap posted by you once again.

"Even though far from being comprehensive or even adequate, this document has rather far-reaching implications: it shows that Pfizer— as well as the authorities that were apprised of these data— must have recognized the grave risks of adverse events after vaccination even before the onset of clinical trials. Nevertheless, Pfizer’s own clinical trials failed to monitor any of the clinical risks that were clearly evident from these data and the regulatory authorities failed to enforce proper standards of oversight. This dual failure has caused the most grievous harm to the public.
1The same data may also have been filed in the U.S. and other wester countries, but the FDA and the corresponding health regulators did not release them to the public. "

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/randyhillier/pages/958/attachments/original/1628198186/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf?1628198186

And you called us out for posting documentation on "unofficial sites".  Can't get anymore unofficial than your own google drive. XD

Also: an Ortheopedist and a retired microbiologist probably aren't the best group to be reliable in vaccine results.
I posted a peer reviewed paper, written by two doctors.

The paper reports on the processes utilized in mRNA vaccines and the results of the Pfizer protocols used in the development of the vaccine.

Go lie down in the corner somewhere.

Your writings and musings are useless here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2021, 12:42:37 PM
So much for the extensive clinical trials you were trying to praise, Rama.

Pure, disgusting crap posted by you once again.

"Even though far from being comprehensive or even adequate, this document has rather far-reaching implications: it shows that Pfizer— as well as the authorities that were apprised of these data— must have recognized the grave risks of adverse events after vaccination even before the onset of clinical trials. Nevertheless, Pfizer’s own clinical trials failed to monitor any of the clinical risks that were clearly evident from these data and the regulatory authorities failed to enforce proper standards of oversight. This dual failure has caused the most grievous harm to the public.
1The same data may also have been filed in the U.S. and other wester countries, but the FDA and the corresponding health regulators did not release them to the public. "

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/randyhillier/pages/958/attachments/original/1628198186/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf?1628198186

And you called us out for posting documentation on "unofficial sites".  Can't get anymore unofficial than your own google drive. XD

Also: an Ortheopedist and a retired microbiologist probably aren't the best group to be reliable in vaccine results.
I posted a peer reviewed paper, written by two doctors.
Please post the link to the journals it appears it as well as the peer reviews. 
Also, as you'll not note, I didn't attack the validity of their data, just your hypocracy of decrying the link used while using an even less credible link.


Quote
The paper reports on the processes utilized in mRNA vaccines and the results of the Pfizer protocols used in the development of the vaccine.
Allegedly.  Gonna wait for those peer review links there buddy.

Quote
Go lie down in the corner somewhere.

Your writings and musings are useless here.
Nah, I have things to do. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 09, 2021, 01:53:29 PM
So much for the extensive clinical trials you were trying to praise, Rama.

Pure, disgusting crap posted by you once again.

"Even though far from being comprehensive or even adequate, this document has rather far-reaching implications: it shows that Pfizer— as well as the authorities that were apprised of these data— must have recognized the grave risks of adverse events after vaccination even before the onset of clinical trials. Nevertheless, Pfizer’s own clinical trials failed to monitor any of the clinical risks that were clearly evident from these data and the regulatory authorities failed to enforce proper standards of oversight. This dual failure has caused the most grievous harm to the public.
1The same data may also have been filed in the U.S. and other wester countries, but the FDA and the corresponding health regulators did not release them to the public. "

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/randyhillier/pages/958/attachments/original/1628198186/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf?1628198186

And you called us out for posting documentation on "unofficial sites".  Can't get anymore unofficial than your own google drive. XD

Also: an Ortheopedist and a retired microbiologist probably aren't the best group to be reliable in vaccine results.
I posted a peer reviewed paper, written by two doctors.
Please post the link to the journals it appears it as well as the peer reviews. 
Also, as you'll not note, I didn't attack the validity of their data, just your hypocracy of decrying the link used while using an even less credible link.
I didn't decry the link to the paper.

Wtf are you writing about.

Google docs is a recognized storage area for documents.

Quit posting your bullshit here.

If you don't have anything contradicting the findings of the paper, then you got shit, which is par for the course coming from you.

Quote
The paper reports on the processes utilized in mRNA vaccines and the results of the Pfizer protocols used in the development of the vaccine.
Allegedly.  Gonna wait for those peer review links there buddy.
Nothing alleged about it, it describes the processes in full.

You got shit, once again.
Quote
Go lie down in the corner somewhere.

Your writings and musings are useless here.
Nah, I have things to do.
Nothing important obviously.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2021, 03:42:18 PM
So much for the extensive clinical trials you were trying to praise, Rama.

Pure, disgusting crap posted by you once again.

"Even though far from being comprehensive or even adequate, this document has rather far-reaching implications: it shows that Pfizer— as well as the authorities that were apprised of these data— must have recognized the grave risks of adverse events after vaccination even before the onset of clinical trials. Nevertheless, Pfizer’s own clinical trials failed to monitor any of the clinical risks that were clearly evident from these data and the regulatory authorities failed to enforce proper standards of oversight. This dual failure has caused the most grievous harm to the public.
1The same data may also have been filed in the U.S. and other wester countries, but the FDA and the corresponding health regulators did not release them to the public. "

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/randyhillier/pages/958/attachments/original/1628198186/Pfizer-pharmacokinetics-and-toxicity.pdf?1628198186

And you called us out for posting documentation on "unofficial sites".  Can't get anymore unofficial than your own google drive. XD

Also: an Ortheopedist and a retired microbiologist probably aren't the best group to be reliable in vaccine results.
I posted a peer reviewed paper, written by two doctors.
Please post the link to the journals it appears it as well as the peer reviews. 
Also, as you'll not note, I didn't attack the validity of their data, just your hypocracy of decrying the link used while using an even less credible link.
I didn't decry the link to the paper.

Wtf are you writing about.

Google docs is a recognized storage area for documents.

Quit posting your bullshit here.

If you don't have anything contradicting the findings of the paper, then you got shit, which is par for the course coming from you.
Appologies, I wasn't clear.
I was referring to this:

Quote from: Action80 link=topic=5536.msg244350#msg244350
I doubt the authenticity, considering the link from which it was derived.

To view the actual document, you must pay.
In which you decry the authenticity of a document because the "actual?" document is behind a paywall.  And since anyone can upload anything to google drive... It doesn't lead it to credibility.

As for critquing it.  I haven't had time to read it yet.  And I know you lack the education required to understand if a paper like this was correct or not.  So your opinion or even mine, is irrelevant.

Quote
Quote
The paper reports on the processes utilized in mRNA vaccines and the results of the Pfizer protocols used in the development of the vaccine.
Allegedly.  Gonna wait for those peer review links there buddy.
Nothing alleged about it, it describes the processes in full.

You got shit, once again.
You claimed it was peer reviewed.  So where did you read it?  What journal?  Or did someone link it on a forum/facebook and you took it as authentic? 

Quote
Quote
Go lie down in the corner somewhere.

Your writings and musings are useless here.
Nah, I have things to do.
Nothing important obviously.
Important to me.  Not to you, obviously, but to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 09, 2021, 05:06:02 PM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

You posted a court decision that I wasn't able to find.

Hoo fucking ray.

Give yourself a firm pat on the ass and an attaboy for doing one thing right in your life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on August 09, 2021, 05:21:02 PM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

If you get sick with a respiratory illness that prevents you from breathing and also affects your cognitive abilities, taking away your taste and smell, will you email those two doctors or will you go to an ER?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 09, 2021, 07:01:45 PM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

If you get sick with a respiratory illness that prevents you from breathing and also affects your cognitive abilities, taking away your taste and smell, will you email those two doctors or will you go to an ER?
How long did it take to formulate the question?

I realize you are part of the crowd wanting me to get sick and die, but I got news for you.

I won't die from covid and I am not going to get the vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2021, 10:14:28 PM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

You posted a court decision that I wasn't able to find.

Hoo fucking ray.

Give yourself a firm pat on the ass and an attaboy for doing one thing right in your life.
Did they?
I'm still waiting for the peer reviewed journal they were in.
Or even how you got the link.
You know... something to substantiate your claim?  Because right now I have no evidence you didn't just write it yourself and put their names on it.  And since I can't see the owner of the google drive, it could very well be yours.

So put up or shut up because if I have to do it for you... well... that's just embarassing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 10, 2021, 12:38:50 AM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

If you get sick with a respiratory illness that prevents you from breathing and also affects your cognitive abilities, taking away your taste and smell, will you email those two doctors or will you go to an ER?
How long did it take to formulate the question?

I realize you are part of the crowd wanting me to get sick and die, but I got news for you.

I won't die from covid and I am not going to get the vaccine.

I would never wish death on another human being. I do, however, hope that enough restrictions get put in place that you feel it. That's all I care about, that you suffer for making the world a worse place, is it really too much to ask?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 10, 2021, 06:11:27 AM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

If you get sick with a respiratory illness that prevents you from breathing and also affects your cognitive abilities, taking away your taste and smell, will you email those two doctors or will you go to an ER?
How long did it take to formulate the question?

I realize you are part of the crowd wanting me to get sick and die, but I got news for you.

I won't die from covid and I am not going to get the vaccine.

I would never wish death on another human being. I do, however, hope that enough restrictions get put in place that you feel it. That's all I care about, that you suffer for making the world a worse place, is it really too much to ask?

Well, he lives in Chicago... Soooo pretty sure he's suffering already.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 11, 2021, 07:58:26 AM
Two doctors wrote the paper.

I'll just leave this here

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 12, 2021, 09:38:09 PM
 Oh hey look.... Exactly what we said would happen when dumbasses open up too soon.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027103023/florida-mississippi-arkansas-hospitals-overwhelmed-covid-19-delta?sc=18&f=1001
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on August 13, 2021, 03:47:29 PM
Oh hey look.... Exactly what we said would happen when dumbasses open up too soon.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027103023/florida-mississippi-arkansas-hospitals-overwhelmed-covid-19-delta?sc=18&f=1001

And the people complaining loudest about reimposing restrictions are the ones directly responsible for reimposing restictions.  American's are fucking arrogant idiots.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: existoid on August 25, 2021, 07:21:19 PM
This is worth a read:
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-refusal-to-apply-cost

His ultimate point can be succinctly stated:
Let's use our normal cost-benefit analysis that we (should) apply to virtually all public policy debates to the various debates regarding Covid (vaccines, lockdowns, etc.).     

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 26, 2021, 12:50:03 PM
Worldwide, there will soon be other types of mandatory shots.  8)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on August 26, 2021, 01:12:25 PM
I feel like that was supposed to sound ominous, but it's actually encouraging. I dont want to have to worry about preventable diseases like smallpox and mumps...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 26, 2021, 01:17:20 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 26, 2021, 02:04:21 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

58 deaths from 35 million vaccines.  Thats death rate of much less than .01%
And if a death rate of 1% is no big deal, then this isn't even worth posting about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 26, 2021, 02:14:11 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

58 deaths from 35 million vaccines.  Thats death rate of much less than .01%
And if a death rate of 1% is no big deal, then this isn't even worth posting about.
You suddenly do not want to count the deaths of people who were vaccinated, still dying from Covid.

Because I suppose, like the doctor said:

"Yeah, the patient died from Covid. Yeah, the patient was vaccinated against Covid. But his death would have been a LOT WORSE had he not been vaccinated!"

Can't make this shit up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 26, 2021, 02:29:13 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

58 deaths from 35 million vaccines.  Thats death rate of much less than .01%
And if a death rate of 1% is no big deal, then this isn't even worth posting about.
You suddenly do not want to count the deaths of people who were vaccinated, still dying from Covid.

Because I suppose, like the doctor said:

"Yeah, the patient died from Covid. Yeah, the patient was vaccinated against Covid. But his death would have been a LOT WORSE had he not been vaccinated!"

Can't make this shit up.

???
Ummm... Wasn't I just doing that?  58 people died of complications from the vaccine.  Out of 35 million vaccinated people.

Or do you want to add anyone who died of covid while also being vaccinated, because thats a different thing.  I mean, we can add that if you want.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 26, 2021, 02:46:00 PM
Or do you want to add anyone who died of covid while also being vaccinated, because thats a different thing.  I mean, we can add that if you want.
Well. We are adding those. But if you look at the data in the UK there's a noticeable difference between the winter where we had lots of cases and lots of deaths and now when we have lots of cases now most of the restrictions have lifted and everyone is mixing but we have comparatively few deaths. I'll leave as an exercise for the reader why that might be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 26, 2021, 02:50:02 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

58 deaths from 35 million vaccines.  Thats death rate of much less than .01%
And if a death rate of 1% is no big deal, then this isn't even worth posting about.
You suddenly do not want to count the deaths of people who were vaccinated, still dying from Covid.

Because I suppose, like the doctor said:

"Yeah, the patient died from Covid. Yeah, the patient was vaccinated against Covid. But his death would have been a LOT WORSE had he not been vaccinated!"

Can't make this shit up.

What doctor said this? It's already been well established that the death and hospitalization rate among those who get the vaccine and get COVID is much lower than the death and hospitalization rate among those who don't get the vaccine. Nobody on the side of the vaccine is hiding these numbers, because the numbers so strongly support the efficacy of the vaccine.

I'd like to see where a doctor said someone's death would have been much worse if they hadn't taken the vaccine, lol. Obviously such a doctor would be an idiot. It is just a mischaracterization of the vaccine's effectiveness.

Keep being a puppet and repeating their inane arguments though, they only strengthen my resolve that everyone should be taking the vaccine if you have to go to such dishonest lengths to try to discredit it.   :D
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 26, 2021, 03:22:24 PM
YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!!!

YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!!!

If you live in australia, and you have children.

The government is forcibly taking away children from the parents and forcibly administering the vaccine to those abducted children.

Can't make this shit up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 26, 2021, 03:23:56 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

58 deaths from 35 million vaccines.  Thats death rate of much less than .01%
And if a death rate of 1% is no big deal, then this isn't even worth posting about.
You suddenly do not want to count the deaths of people who were vaccinated, still dying from Covid.

Because I suppose, like the doctor said:

"Yeah, the patient died from Covid. Yeah, the patient was vaccinated against Covid. But his death would have been a LOT WORSE had he not been vaccinated!"

Can't make this shit up.

???
Ummm... Wasn't I just doing that?  58 people died of complications from the vaccine.  Out of 35 million vaccinated people.

Or do you want to add anyone who died of covid while also being vaccinated, because thats a different thing.  I mean, we can add that if you want.
YEah, people dying from covid after having been vaccinated is not being added to the total.

And yeah, a doctor did say that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on August 26, 2021, 03:38:07 PM
Can't make this shit up.
You can make this shit up. Someone did make it up.

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-20/fact-focus-covid-19-shots-not-forced-on-kids-in-australia
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on August 26, 2021, 03:42:34 PM
If you live in australia, and you have children.

The government is forcibly taking away children from the parents
They've been doing that for centuries. It's hardly news.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 26, 2021, 03:52:02 PM
Can't make this shit up.
You can make this shit up. Someone did make it up.

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-20/fact-focus-covid-19-shots-not-forced-on-kids-in-australia

Hey, more desperate dishonesty from the anti-vax crowd, how surprising.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 26, 2021, 03:55:00 PM
And yeah, a doctor did say that.

He's an idiot then, plenty of those to go around, even in the medical community.

You'll forgive me for being skeptical, though, until you provide the actual source of the quote, I'm sure.

Obviously it doesn't change the fact that, contra to your claim, nobody who is in favor of the vaccine is hiding the number of deaths from COVID among those who have had the vaccine, since it is so astronomically low compared to the number of deaths among those who haven't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 26, 2021, 04:51:04 PM
You provided numbers from a source shown to be questionable and invalid. They entirely changed the way the Covid deaths are counted to include anyone who died with the virus. This was not the way flu deaths have been counted in years past. A unique method was adopted for this disease only.

Obviously these same sociopaths are going to claim that there were only a few "proven" vaccine deaths, seeing as they can define what is necessary for proof.

Your argument against the health tyranny of the health authorities is to present their numbers back to us and say "see!" How do you not understand that this is an invalid response. ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 26, 2021, 05:56:47 PM
You provided numbers from a source shown to be questionable and invalid. They entirely changed the way the Covid deaths are counted to include anyone who died with the virus. This was not the way flu deaths have been counted in years past. A unique method was adopted for this disease only.

Obviously these same sociopaths are going to claim that there were only a few "proven" vaccine deaths, seeing as they can define what is necessary for proof.

Your argument against the health tyranny of the health authorities is to present their numbers back to us and say "see!" How do you not understand that it is an invalid response. ::)

Right, we're merely providing info directly from medical experts, while you guys are providing much more reliable info from fringe conspiracy theorists and political pundits pushing an agenda. Troll harder, Tom.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 26, 2021, 06:11:20 PM
Incorrect. Almost everyone I've cited about Covid is a doctor. You're citing government medical bureaucracy. There may be doctors there. But maybe also non-doctors pushing their agenda. To prove that they have no agenda you cite the very same sources under question. Pretty invalid response.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 26, 2021, 06:14:04 PM
Incorrect. Almost everyone I've cited about Covid is a doctor. You're citing government medical bureaucracy. There may be doctors there. But maybe also non-doctors pushing their agenda. To prove that they have no agenda you cite the very same sources under question. Pretty invalid response.

Ecch, see my sig to understand why I'm not continuing this. Keep on trollin', Tom.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 26, 2021, 06:23:18 PM
Yes, let’s ignore that the CDC employs doctors. That’ll make denial easier.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 26, 2021, 06:42:10 PM
Can't make this shit up.
You can make this shit up. Someone did make it up.

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-20/fact-focus-covid-19-shots-not-forced-on-kids-in-australia

Hey, more desperate dishonesty from the anti-vax crowd, how surprising.  ::)
The parents were told they could not enter the area where the vaccine was distributed to the children.

Forced separation.

Nothing to do with anti-vaxxing.

Shove that BS line back in your rect..err...whatever orifice you prefer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on August 26, 2021, 06:44:32 PM
I couldn’t enter the area where my son’s broken arm was being operated on. He was kidnaaaaaaaaaped. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 26, 2021, 06:47:23 PM
Have fun, Tom and J-Man

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

58 deaths from 35 million vaccines.  Thats death rate of much less than .01%
And if a death rate of 1% is no big deal, then this isn't even worth posting about.
You suddenly do not want to count the deaths of people who were vaccinated, still dying from Covid.

Because I suppose, like the doctor said:

"Yeah, the patient died from Covid. Yeah, the patient was vaccinated against Covid. But his death would have been a LOT WORSE had he not been vaccinated!"

Can't make this shit up.

What doctor said this? It's already been well established that the death and hospitalization rate among those who get the vaccine and get COVID is much lower than the death and hospitalization rate among those who don't get the vaccine. Nobody on the side of the vaccine is hiding these numbers, because the numbers so strongly support the efficacy of the vaccine.

I'd like to see where a doctor said someone's death would have been much worse if they hadn't taken the vaccine, lol. Obviously such a doctor would be an idiot. It is just a mischaracterization of the vaccine's effectiveness.

Keep being a puppet and repeating their inane arguments though, they only strengthen my resolve that everyone should be taking the vaccine if you have to go to such dishonest lengths to try to discredit it.   :D
The numbers do not support the vaccine.

If they did, no need for boosters.

I was vaccinated against all sorts of stuff when I was younger.

No need for a booster for any of that stuff.

Here, the vaccine begins losing effectiveness almost immediately.

Doesn't even last a full year.

Sounds rather INEFFECTIVE TO ME.

Let's take your posts as an analog.

One can reliably count on your posts to be inane and mindless drivel minute after minute, day, after day, month after month, and year after year.

Whereas the vaccine is garbage.




Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on August 26, 2021, 08:47:27 PM
Whereas the vaccine is garbage.

Quite effective garbage, though.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/23/94-alabama-covid-19-deaths-among-unvaccinated/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 26, 2021, 10:30:45 PM
Whereas the vaccine is garbage.

Quite effective garbage, though.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/23/94-alabama-covid-19-deaths-among-unvaccinated/

We're seeing these huge surges in places where large numbers of people (including local politicians) are fighting taking the vaccine, but the vaccine is useless garbage.  ::)

BTW, lackey, boosters are a normal thing, even if they're not needed for every type of vaccine. Tetanus shots don't last forever, either, yet nobody seems to doubt their effectiveness. I bet you would get a tetanus shot if you cut yourself on rusty metal and your doctor recommended it, and I'd double down that you have had a tetanus shot in the past (unless Tucker Carlson told you not to, I guess, I must confess I'm not on top of the extreme Right's take on tetanus shots, but I haven't seen them speak against them). But the coronavirus vaccine is totally useless, because booster shots. I mean, seriously, the people whose arguments you're parroting are just making less sense and getting more desperate as time goes on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 27, 2021, 10:18:11 AM
Whereas the vaccine is garbage.

Quite effective garbage, though.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/23/94-alabama-covid-19-deaths-among-unvaccinated/

We're seeing these huge surges in places where large numbers of people (including local politicians) are fighting taking the vaccine, but the vaccine is useless garbage.  ::)

BTW, lackey, boosters are a normal thing, even if they're not needed for every type of vaccine. T
Yes, boosters are normal.

How normal?

Only one example out of the many.

And that is if you are stupid enough to get cut on rusty metal.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on August 27, 2021, 05:34:46 PM
Whereas the vaccine is garbage.

Quite effective garbage, though.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/23/94-alabama-covid-19-deaths-among-unvaccinated/

We're seeing these huge surges in places where large numbers of people (including local politicians) are fighting taking the vaccine, but the vaccine is useless garbage.  ::)

BTW, lackey, boosters are a normal thing, even if they're not needed for every type of vaccine. T
Yes, boosters are normal.

How normal?

Only one example out of the many.

And that is if you are stupid enough to get cut on rusty metal.

Seems pretty normal:

Vaccine boosters that children need include:

Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
Measles-mumps-rubella (MMR)
Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis (Tdap)
Varicella

Vaccine boosters you may need as a teen or adult include:

Tdap (every 10 years)
Shingles
Pneumonia
Varicella
MMR
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/vaccine-booster-shots
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 31, 2021, 11:56:32 AM
https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/08/29/3rd-conservative-radio-host-who-condemned-vaccines-dies-of-covid-1390555

Ok, so I'm not rooting for anybody to die or anything. I do kind of appreciate that conservative pundits are helping to hasten the death of the Republican Party by convincing their flocks of sheep to not take the vaccine though. The need for voter suppression to keep the Republican Party on life support has never been stronger!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 31, 2021, 01:12:59 PM
https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/08/29/3rd-conservative-radio-host-who-condemned-vaccines-dies-of-covid-1390555

Ok, so I'm not rooting for anybody to die or anything. I do kind of appreciate that conservative pundits are helping to hasten the death of the Republican Party by convincing their flocks of sheep to not take the vaccine though. The need for voter suppression to keep the Republican Party on life support has never been stronger!

"But how many liberals are dying, Roundy?  How many are lining up to die in hospital beds?  The media doesn't report that, just one a few conservatives die." -probably someone, somewhere on the internet
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 03, 2021, 01:12:36 PM
The latest news clearly indicates natural immunity is the way to go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5VrpgXPm4
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 03, 2021, 01:14:46 PM
The latest news clearly indicates natural immunity is the way to go.
Once again, natural immunity requires getting sick with COVID to achieve. Are you really suggesting we prevent people from getting sick with COVID by making them sick with COVID?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on September 03, 2021, 03:39:30 PM
https://rumble.com/vm0fqp-dr.-zev-zelenko-covid-genocide-very-nefarious-sinister-purpose.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 03, 2021, 04:45:02 PM
https://rumble.com/vm0fqp-dr.-zev-zelenko-covid-genocide-very-nefarious-sinister-purpose.html

Controversial Doc in Trump’s Ear Calls Malaria Drug Study ‘Garbage’
Dr. Vladimir “Zev” Zelenko, whose coronavirus advice is being probed by federal authorities...Zelenko’s enthusiastic and vocal support for hydroxychloroquine, an antimalarial drug being used experimentally to treat coronavirus symptoms...However, a global study of 96,000 hospitalized coronavirus patients, published in the medical journal The Lancet on Friday, found that the combination of hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic drug azithromycin quadrupled the risk of heart arrhythmia and increased the risk of death by 45 percent.[/b]
https://www.thedailybeast.com/vladimir-zelenko-controversial-doc-in-trumps-ear-calls-hydroxychloroquine-study-garbage
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on September 03, 2021, 08:17:51 PM
https://rumble.com/vm0fqp-dr.-zev-zelenko-covid-genocide-very-nefarious-sinister-purpose.html

Controversial Doc in Trump’s Ear Calls Malaria Drug Study ‘Garbage’
Dr. Vladimir “Zev” Zelenko, whose coronavirus advice is being probed by federal authorities...Zelenko’s enthusiastic and vocal support for hydroxychloroquine, an antimalarial drug being used experimentally to treat coronavirus symptoms...However, a global study of 96,000 hospitalized coronavirus patients, published in the medical journal The Lancet on Friday, found that the combination of hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic drug azithromycin quadrupled the risk of heart arrhythmia and increased the risk of death by 45 percent.[/b]
https://www.thedailybeast.com/vladimir-zelenko-controversial-doc-in-trumps-ear-calls-hydroxychloroquine-study-garbage

I'm taking and my wife has been on his generic vitamin answer to covid. Wifes Dr. recommended it over a year ago because she works in a grocery and still does. no covid!  Quercetin 250 + Zinc 35/ + D 5kiu + C 2k, we add a multi- b3 150% daily... then ifn we get the vid like the good DR. recommends we'll go 1000 mg Quercetin and zinc 60.  No vaccines here so our natural immunity is much better than the death jab peeps.  Quercetin  like ivermetin or HCQ are the gun that shoots the Zinc into the cells stopping the covid if I understand him right.  Dr.s know this as my wifes guy told to get on this long ago.  Joe Rogan won, bla bla bla

If 3 billion pharmaceutical shots were at stake, the powers that be will say anything, right? These pills he's encouraging are cheap for most, under $50. Wife and I are in and have been. Now go get a death jab that doesn't work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 03, 2021, 08:44:27 PM
The profit margins on those drugs are almost certainly higher than the vaccine, but sure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 03, 2021, 09:39:31 PM
Apparently Pfizer has pandemic pricing, currently charging the US $19.50 per dose. Anyone's guess what post-pandemic/boosters may cost.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Clyde Frog on September 04, 2021, 03:52:44 AM
Apparently Pfizer has pandemic pricing, currently charging the US $19.50 per dose. Anyone's guess what post-pandemic/boosters may cost.
I'm gonna guess it will be at least a 50x increase.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 04, 2021, 06:21:18 AM
Oh, no doubt. Their Vax's usually run in the $150-$200 realm per. And even at $19.50 pandemic pricing, I read somewhere that they were contracted by the US for something like 500 million doses. (The numbers are a little fuzzy). But even at that, 500,000,000 x 19.50 = lots and lots of $$$.
There's a lot about, of course, the R&D costs, of course, and something that I can't quite verify regarding Pfizer taking financial responsibility for storage and shipping costs. But still, its a lot of dough flying around.

But, even though I loathe bigpharma, it's the jab we need.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2021, 07:06:34 AM
https://rumble.com/vm0fqp-dr.-zev-zelenko-covid-genocide-very-nefarious-sinister-purpose.html

Controversial Doc in Trump’s Ear Calls Malaria Drug Study ‘Garbage’
Dr. Vladimir “Zev” Zelenko, whose coronavirus advice is being probed by federal authorities...Zelenko’s enthusiastic and vocal support for hydroxychloroquine, an antimalarial drug being used experimentally to treat coronavirus symptoms...However, a global study of 96,000 hospitalized coronavirus patients, published in the medical journal The Lancet on Friday, found that the combination of hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic drug azithromycin quadrupled the risk of heart arrhythmia and increased the risk of death by 45 percent.[/b]
https://www.thedailybeast.com/vladimir-zelenko-controversial-doc-in-trumps-ear-calls-hydroxychloroquine-study-garbage

I'm taking and my wife has been on his generic vitamin answer to covid. Wifes Dr. recommended it over a year ago because she works in a grocery and still does. no covid!  Quercetin 250 + Zinc 35/ + D 5kiu + C 2k, we add a multi- b3 150% daily... then ifn we get the vid like the good DR. recommends we'll go 1000 mg Quercetin and zinc 60.  No vaccines here so our natural immunity is much better than the death jab peeps.  Quercetin  like ivermetin or HCQ are the gun that shoots the Zinc into the cells stopping the covid if I understand him right.  Dr.s know this as my wifes guy told to get on this long ago.  Joe Rogan won, bla bla bla

If 3 billion pharmaceutical shots were at stake, the powers that be will say anything, right? These pills he's encouraging are cheap for most, under $50. Wife and I are in and have been. Now go get a death jab that doesn't work.

And exactly how would zinc stop a virus from entering a cell?  Its not like a virus is repelled by zinc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 04, 2021, 10:08:34 AM
No vaccines here so our natural immunity is much better than the death jab peeps.
In order to have natural immunity, you must have already been sick with COVID. Have you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 10, 2021, 05:56:10 AM
You tell ‘em, Joe!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7chQfQ67SM
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 10, 2021, 10:27:20 AM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 10, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
ok, so the four anti-vaxxers in our west coast facility all got sick at the same time and crippled their warehouse. It's not a large operation and they have been struggling for the last two weeks to keep the business going while half their shipping crew is out.

Two are still too sick to work, one should be back tomorrow and one is in ICU. His wife and child are in the same hospital on a different floor. The absolute saddest part is that he was in the hospital bed posting anti vax propaganda from his phone right up until he was moved to ICU. Meanwhile, all the right wing media mouth holes that convinced him not to wear a mask, not to get the vaccine are all vaccinated. Their families are all vaccinated. Even King of All Dumbasses, Trump is vaccinated.

In America, many employers offer health insurance as part of compensation. Anyone without health insurance who faces a major medical incident could be in debt the rest of their life. Even with health insurance, you could spend years paying off medical expenses that aren't covered by your policy. When we hire someone who smokes cigarettes, the cost to insure them is much higher. As the cost of insurance is going up, the company has to decide whether to reduce benefits with cheaper policies or make employees pay part of the premium. This guy is consuming thousands of dollars of medical resources a day which is going to impact our already crushing insurance costs. If you think the vaccine is some financial scam, you need to look at how the insurance companies and health care industry have been collaborating to plunder the American economy for decades.

Of course, just like the guy in ICU. The anti vax crowd is going to call me a liar. They will say this family was hospitalized in a motorcycle wreck or they have been hired as 'crisis actors'.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2021, 02:01:26 PM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.


ok, so the four anti-vaxxers in our west coast facility all got sick at the same time and crippled their warehouse. It's not a large operation and they have been struggling for the last two weeks to keep the business going while half their shipping crew is out.

Two are still too sick to work, one should be back tomorrow and one is in ICU. His wife and child are in the same hospital on a different floor. The absolute saddest part is that he was in the hospital bed posting anti vax propaganda from his phone right up until he was moved to ICU. Meanwhile, all the right wing media mouth holes that convinced him not to wear a mask, not to get the vaccine are all vaccinated. Their families are all vaccinated. Even King of All Dumbasses, Trump is vaccinated.

In America, many employers offer health insurance as part of compensation. Anyone without health insurance who faces a major medical incident could be in debt the rest of their life. Even with health insurance, you could spend years paying off medical expenses that aren't covered by your policy. When we hire someone who smokes cigarettes, the cost to insure them is much higher. As the cost of insurance is going up, the company has to decide whether to reduce benefits with cheaper policies or make employees pay part of the premium. This guy is consuming thousands of dollars of medical resources a day which is going to impact our already crushing insurance costs. If you think the vaccine is some financial scam, you need to look at how the insurance companies and health care industry have been collaborating to plunder the American economy for decades.

Of course, just like the guy in ICU. The anti vax crowd is going to call me a liar. They will say this family was hospitalized in a motorcycle wreck or they have been hired as 'crisis actors'.

Some people are too god damn stubborn.  They will scream the Titanic is unsinkable, even as they go under.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 10, 2021, 03:49:49 PM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.
Yeah, he pretty much did say exactly that.

He also stated, "We are going to protect the vaccinated against the unvaccinated."

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 10, 2021, 04:09:11 PM

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.

Some have suggested that those who refuse to get vaccinated should be refused medical treatment for covid.
At first it seemed like a pretty shitty viewpoint to me but now I'm starting to get it.  Why should we waste hospital beds on people like this?



Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2021, 05:02:27 PM

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.

Some have suggested that those who refuse to get vaccinated should be refused medical treatment for covid.
At first it seemed like a pretty shitty viewpoint to me but now I'm starting to get it.  Why should we waste hospital beds on people like this?

All other factors being equal, vaccinated patients should get treated before unvaccinated people. That’s just basic triage.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2021, 10:29:03 PM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.
Yeah, he pretty much did say exactly that.

He also stated, "We are going to protect the vaccinated against the unvaccinated."

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.
Then you should probably quote what he literally said, not what he "pretty much" said.  Paraphrasing is not your strong suit. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 11, 2021, 06:16:59 AM
All other factors being equal, vaccinated patients should get treated before unvaccinated people. That’s just basic triage.
Don’t your prioritise the people who are more ill (unless they have no chance of survival)? In which case shouldn’t it be the opposite?

I think people should get vaccinated but I’m finding this “two tier society” which is being created unsettling. I don’t think that is part of some “government plot”. People can, after all, choose to get vaccinated. But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: jack44556677 on September 11, 2021, 07:11:26 AM
But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues

This absurd dystopia is really seperating the empathatic/human from the callous/sociopath.  It is a test of principles that most are failing, willingly and with righteous indignation.

Lo and behold, could it be?

AATW is one of the good ones!

I had a hunch :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 11, 2021, 09:09:05 AM
I think people should get vaccinated but I’m finding this “two tier society” which is being created unsettling. I don’t think that is part of some “government plot”. People can, after all, choose to get vaccinated. But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues
If you show up to a job interview with offensive body odour, you will probably not be hired, yet nobody is campaigning for their right not to wear deodorant. Smelling like a hobo, though unpleasant, is far less of a hazard to others than not getting vaccinated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 11, 2021, 09:52:19 AM
All other factors being equal, vaccinated patients should get treated before unvaccinated people. That’s just basic triage.
Don’t your prioritise the people who are more ill (unless they have no chance of survival)? In which case shouldn’t it be the opposite?

So the important part is that I said “all other factors being equal”. Triaging isn’t just about treating who is the sickest, it’s also about what resources will provide the most benefit. This only applies to the most dire cases though.


Quote
I think people should get vaccinated but I’m finding this “two tier society” which is being created unsettling. I don’t think that is part of some “government plot”. People can, after all, choose to get vaccinated. But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues

If people wish to continue to make the choice to be a public health risk in the face of a safe, free and accessible solution, then it seems to be perfectly reasonable.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 11, 2021, 09:55:06 AM
But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues

This absurd dystopia is really seperating the empathatic/human from the callous/sociopath.  It is a test of principles that most are failing, willingly and with righteous indignation.

Lo and behold, could it be?

AATW is one of the good ones!

I had a hunch :)

It’s some serious doublethink to call people who are emphasizing a public health initiative sociopaths and the ones making a selfish choice empathetic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 11, 2021, 10:17:22 AM
It’s some serious doublethink to call people who are emphasizing a public health initiative sociopaths and the ones making a selfish choice empathetic.
Meh, you could reverse that argument by calling one group in favour of individual rights and freedoms, and the other group as clamping down on those freedoms. Mandatory/forced medical treatment has never been popular, and probably never will be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 11, 2021, 12:08:38 PM
I think people should get vaccinated but I’m finding this “two tier society” which is being created unsettling. I don’t think that is part of some “government plot”. People can, after all, choose to get vaccinated. But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues

I think that globally, we are seeing a second tier of nations that don't have access to vaccine resources versus nations that have plenty of vaccine.

In America, this 'tiering' is being promulgated politically. The right wing is driving the anti-vax/anti-mask movement because it helps their cause (holding power.) These Republicans screaming about wearing a mask are all vaccinated, their families are vaccinated and if they get sick, they have access to the finest health care in the country. Do you really think that the governor of Texas would let his children romp and play with a contagious person not wearing a mask. The Republicans know that by creating antivaxxers, they are actually creating 'antiDemocrats.' The Republican sales pitch is that they are protecting our liberties from the terrifying homosexual, liberal, socialists. They don't care about the people they brainwashed ending up in the ICU. These antivaxxers think that the general public is being manipulated by some government/media cabal but the joke's on them.

There is one, straightforward question we all have to ask ourselves.
How bad would a public health crisis have to be before we mandate public measures to curtail its spread?
Whenever I ask an antimasker, a conservative or conspiracy theorist this question, all I ever get is a lot of hot air about personal liberty, the rise of socialism and a lot of bullshit but no answer. I have yet to hear a Republican politician take a stand with a real answer.

I have asked lot of people this question and posted it on forums. The only actual answer I've ever gotten came from Thork, whose benchmark would be a global mortality percentage (millions of dead people.) If a politician is going to ask for my vote, my support, they will answer this straight forward question in a straight forward way or they can go fuck themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 11, 2021, 12:55:41 PM
It’s some serious doublethink to call people who are emphasizing a public health initiative sociopaths and the ones making a selfish choice empathetic.
Meh, you could reverse that argument by calling one group in favour of individual rights and freedoms, and the other group as clamping down on those freedoms. Mandatory/forced medical treatment has never been popular, and probably never will be.

I get that but sociopathic is a hilariously inept adjective to apply. Vaccines are already mandatory in a number of realms and Id bet 90% of the vaccine hesitant are vaccinated against measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, et. al. The hesitancy seems a perfect case study in human’s being closer to cavemen than we are comfortable with; a fight or flight playing out across an entire civilization.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 11, 2021, 01:35:09 PM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.
Yeah, he pretty much did say exactly that.

He also stated, "We are going to protect the vaccinated against the unvaccinated."

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.
Then you should probably quote what he literally said, not what he "pretty much" said.  Paraphrasing is not your strong suit.
I know what he literally stated. I know the logical conclusion of not being able to work if your not vaccinated.

Ergo, I am right and you, as usual, are wrong.

The world will be a much better place when you and people of your ilk are gone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 11, 2021, 03:22:18 PM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.
Yeah, he pretty much did say exactly that.

He also stated, "We are going to protect the vaccinated against the unvaccinated."

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.
Then you should probably quote what he literally said, not what he "pretty much" said.  Paraphrasing is not your strong suit.
I know what he literally stated.
Yet continue to not quote him properly.  Much like Trump and his "huge evidence" of election fraud, I suspect you are lying and don't actually know what he said.  But please, prove me wrong.

Quote
I know the logical conclusion of not being able to work if your not vaccinated.
Same as if you get sick: you don't work.  Or you lie and say you're hung over.  Pretty simple.

Quote
Ergo, I am right and you, as usual, are wrong.

The world will be a much better place when you and people of your ilk are gone.
Considering I didn't say you were wrong, just bad at paraphrasing, I'm curious what I am wrong about.

Also... Why would me and my ilk be gone?  We're the followers.  The sheep.  We're the ones the powers want to keep.  You, however, are a problem for the New World Order.

Unless your ilk are the ones who are poisoning the vaccines to kill everyone else.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on September 11, 2021, 06:25:05 PM
It's not exactly a mandate. You do have the option to jam a q tip up your nose every week for the rest of time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 13, 2021, 09:37:31 AM
I think people should get vaccinated but I’m finding this “two tier society” which is being created unsettling. I don’t think that is part of some “government plot”. People can, after all, choose to get vaccinated. But I don’t like the idea of those who choose not to being treated like second class citizens who can’t get certain jobs or travel or go to certain venues
If you show up to a job interview with offensive body odour, you will probably not be hired, yet nobody is campaigning for their right not to wear deodorant.
False equivalence. Someone like that would actually be unpleasant to be around. Someone who hasn't been vaccinated would...well, you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference unless they told you.

Quote
Smelling like a hobo, though unpleasant, is far less of a hazard to others than not getting vaccinated.
How much of a hazard to others are the unvaccinated really? That's hard to quantify, but the way I've always seen it I got vaccinated mostly for pragmatic reasons. I didn't really feel I was at high risk of getting very ill from Covid (although I'm getting towards the age where that risk starts to increase). But I foresaw potential issues if I wasn't vaccinated in terms of travel etc and sure it did feel like the "right" thing to do. But if someone chooses not to be then I see that as mostly putting them at more risk, not me. I'm vaccinated, I've done my bit to try and lessen the chance of getting ill. If other people choose to stay at risk then that's their look out. The unvaccinated in ICU have made their own bed and are literally lying in it. It's more an act of self harm than anything.
They might also be increasing the risk of passing it on to me but...I'm vaccinated, so the chances of that causing me to get seriously ill are greatly diminished.

I've not seen any data which would indicate to me that unvaccinated people are such a big public health risk to others that they should be treated like second class citizens.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 13, 2021, 10:14:33 AM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.
Yeah, he pretty much did say exactly that.

He also stated, "We are going to protect the vaccinated against the unvaccinated."

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.
Then you should probably quote what he literally said, not what he "pretty much" said.  Paraphrasing is not your strong suit.
I know what he literally stated.
Yet continue to not quote him properly.  Much like Trump and his "huge evidence" of election fraud, I suspect you are lying and don't actually know what he said.  But please, prove me wrong.
I don't need to quote exactly what he stated.

The essence of what he stated is this. You comply with these directives or you do not work.
Quote
I know the logical conclusion of not being able to work if your not vaccinated.
Same as if you get sick: you don't work.  Or you lie and say you're hung over.  Pretty simple.

Quote
Ergo, I am right and you, as usual, are wrong.

The world will be a much better place when you and people of your ilk are gone.
Considering I didn't say you were wrong, just bad at paraphrasing, I'm curious what I am wrong about.
Most everything in your life.
Also... Why would me and my ilk be gone?  We're the followers.  The sheep.  We're the ones the powers want to keep.  You, however, are a problem for the New World Order.

Unless your ilk are the ones who are poisoning the vaccines to kill everyone else.
Yes, you would love for everyone to believe you are a sheep.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 13, 2021, 10:21:41 AM
False equivalence. Someone like that would actually be unpleasant to be around. Someone who hasn't been vaccinated would...well, you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference unless they told you.
It's still a personal choice. Why do you get to decide which personal choices are acceptable and which aren't?

How much of a hazard to others are the unvaccinated really?
There are some people who cannot get vaccinated due to allergies. Granted, they are a very tiny minority, but they depend on other people to get vaccinated to reduce the risk of spreading the virus. Someone who chooses not to get vaccinated is putting the health of such people at risk.

Other than that, there's the discussion we've already had about the risk of incubating a vaccine-resistant strain.

I've not seen any data which would indicate to me that unvaccinated people are such a big public health risk to others that they should be treated like second class citizens.
Well, that's the thing. There won't be any data about a new vaccine-resistant strain until it already exists and people are getting sick from it. Similarly, in January 2020 there were no data to suggest shutting down international travel was warranted, and look where that got us.

Proper preventative measures are necessarily based on what is likely to work, not what we have data on. That's what makes them preventative. This implies that we must err on the side of caution, even if it turns out later that some measures were unnecessary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 13, 2021, 11:34:10 AM
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 13, 2021, 11:39:15 AM
I've not seen any data which would indicate to me that unvaccinated people are such a big public health risk to others that they should be treated like second class citizens.
How about the tens of thousands of people occupying hospital beds and using up resources for something which was, frankly, avoidable? The time off work that front line health care staff have to take after getting infected? Even fully vaxxed, there is still a short window of transmissability - and their job is literally working with vulnerable people

You haven't seen the data because you haven't looked. Or operate with a critical mind. Or care. You only look for what matches your bias. And your bias is wrong
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 13, 2021, 12:10:56 PM
Proper preventative measures are necessarily based on what is likely to work, not what we have data on. That's what makes them preventative. This implies that we must err on the side of caution, even if it turns out later that some measures were unnecessary.
Largely agreed but any measures should be proportionate to the risk those measures are designed to mitigate.
There's always a risk of any virus mutating
The risk of Covid...well, the overall CFR is around 1%, then there's "Long Covid" which I haven't seen much data around. It obviously causes pressure on health services which has knock on effects.
This isn't a "holy shit there are piles of bodies in the streets" level event. The trouble is some people think that because of that it's not a situation which requires any response at all. It clearly does.
Whether that response should have included lockdowns - I'm sceptical, particularly the way our idiots did it which was to implement lockdowns far too late and with so many caveats and exceptions so to render them ineffective.
I'm also sceptical that the risk posed by the unvaccinated is high enough that they should be prevented from attending certain events or holding certain jobs*.
I'm a bit unsettled at this creating a "two tier society", even if people are choosing which tier to be in.

(*That said - my wife used to work in a care home, they are getting rid of staff who won't be vaccinated - won't as opposed to can't. I do think there is a case to be made for that in jobs where you are dealing with vulnerable people all day...although I'd note that the NHS aren't making the same rule, because they'd be screwed if they did, where care workers are 10 a penny)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 13, 2021, 12:35:36 PM
I've not seen any data which would indicate to me that unvaccinated people are such a big public health risk to others that they should be treated like second class citizens.
How about the tens of thousands of people occupying hospital beds and using up resources for something which was, frankly, avoidable?
How was it avoidable?

By getting the vaccine?

If that was the case, then ZERO vaccinated people would not be hospitalized.

Israel, you don't want to mention Israel.
The time off work that front line health care staff have to take after getting infected? Even fully vaxxed, there is still a short window of transmissability - and their job is literally working with vulnerable people

You haven't seen the data because you haven't looked. Or operate with a critical mind. Or care. You only look for what matches your bias. And your bias is wrong.
You need to go back and play in your regular filth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 13, 2021, 12:42:19 PM
Proper preventative measures are necessarily based on what is likely to work, not what we have data on. That's what makes them preventative. This implies that we must err on the side of caution, even if it turns out later that some measures were unnecessary.
Largely agreed but any measures should be proportionate to the risk those measures are designed to mitigate.
There's always a risk of any virus mutating
The risk of Covid...well, the overall CFR is around 1%, then there's "Long Covid" which I haven't seen much data around. It obviously causes pressure on health services which has knock on effects.
This isn't a "holy shit there are piles of bodies in the streets" level event. The trouble is some people think that because of that it's not a situation which requires any response at all. It clearly does.
Whether that response should have included lockdowns - I'm sceptical, particularly the way our idiots did it which was to implement lockdowns far too late and with so many caveats and exceptions so to render them ineffective.
I'm also sceptical that the risk posed by the unvaccinated is high enough that they should be prevented from attending certain events or holding certain jobs*.
I'm a bit unsettled at this creating a "two tier society", even if people are choosing which tier to be in.

(*That said - my wife used to work in a care home, they are getting rid of staff who won't be vaccinated - won't as opposed to can't. I do think there is a case to be made for that in jobs where you are dealing with vulnerable people all day...although I'd note that the NHS aren't making the same rule, because they'd be screwed if they did, where care workers are 10 a penny)

You forget the law of large numbers

A covid fatality rate of 1%.... Letting covid rip through America would cause millions of deaths

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/24/more-than-2m-adults-in-england-have-had-long-covid-for-over-12-weeks-study

This article points to research (yet to be peer reviewed) that long covid (still affected after 12 weeks) affected 37.7% of people. So potentially tens of millions suffering long covid if no vaccines and no measures taken. And lets be honest, covid is here to stay and will continue to mutate and affect you again and again and it's going to catch everyone eventually - like 'The Cold'. Imagine a 1% CFR each time it mutates and turns into something else. You want to take that chance year after year? Natural immunity wont work. Just like getting infected with influenza wont protect you next year from influenza

Do you think that when someone dies or ends up in hospital that it doesn't cost the economy money? Every death hurts the economy. Having 1% of your population die and many more % of people staying sick for months would sting it worse than lockdowns

Currently the overwhelming majority of covid related deaths (as in ~99%) now are among the unvaccinated. The breakthrough infections that lead to death are usually in people with co-morbidities or elderly. In a place like America, to not be vaccinated at this point in time is because you chose not to.

This is from Texas 2 months ago

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/07/21/coronavirus-texas-vaccinated-deaths/
Quote

    Of the 8,787 people who have died in Texas due to COVID-19 since early February, at least 43 were fully vaccinated, the Texas Department of State Health Services said.

    That means 99.5% of people who died due to COVID-19 in Texas from Feb. 8 to July 14 were unvaccinated, while 0.5% were the result of “breakthrough infections,” which DSHS defines as people who contracted the virus two weeks after being fully vaccinated.

    The agency said nearly 75% of the 43 vaccinated people who died were fighting a serious underlying condition, such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer or chronic lung disease.

    Additionally, it said 95% of the 43 vaccinated people who died were 60 or older, and that a majority of them were white and a majority were men.

    DSHS noted that these are preliminary numbers, which could change because each case must be confirmed through public health investigations. Statewide, more than 50,000 people have died of COVID-19 since March 2020, but the rate of deaths has slowed dramatically since vaccines became widely available in April.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 13, 2021, 12:50:04 PM
Dick Farrel, 65, used his local talk show and social media to rail against Dr. Anthony Fauci, who he called a “power tripping lying freak,” and say that no one should get the coronavirus vaccine. “Why take a vax promoted by people who lied 2u all along about masks.”

Phil Valentine A conservative radio host in Tennessee
“Let me tell you how it will be,” he sang, “and I don’t care if you agree, ‘Cause I’m the Vaxman, yeah I’m the Vaxman. If you don’t like me coming round, be thankful I don’t hold you down.”

Marc Bernier, a talk radio host in Daytona Beach for 30 years
He also tweeted that the U.S. government was “acting like Nazi’s” because officials were urging people to get vaccinated.

All dead. Lots of their believers are dead too.


Maybe we should start a thread in the lower forums mocking all the antivaxxer pundits, preachers and talk media blowhards that died from covid while they were mocking the vaccine. It would be a long list.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 13, 2021, 12:55:42 PM
Maybe we should start a thread in the lower forums mocking all the antivaxxer pundits, preachers and talk media blowhards that died from covid while they were mocking the vaccine. It would be a long list.

Good riddance to them. There are reddit threads devoted to mocking them already such as covidatemyface or the HermainCainAward

There is also www.sorryantivaxxer.com

Great for a LOL at their ultimate comeuppance
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2021, 01:11:16 PM
"We want you to live so much that we will make sure you cannot work in order to put a roof over your head or food in your stomach if you do not comply." - Joe Biden

I don't think thats a thing he said.
Yeah, he pretty much did say exactly that.

He also stated, "We are going to protect the vaccinated against the unvaccinated."

LMMFAO.

They can give me the shot of my choice when it comes time.
Then you should probably quote what he literally said, not what he "pretty much" said.  Paraphrasing is not your strong suit.
I know what he literally stated.
Yet continue to not quote him properly.  Much like Trump and his "huge evidence" of election fraud, I suspect you are lying and don't actually know what he said.  But please, prove me wrong.
I don't need to quote exactly what he stated.

The essence of what he stated is this. You comply with these directives or you do not work.
I'm asking you to, as to lend credibility to your statement.  Why is this so hard for you?  What are you trying to avoid?  Because if you're right, you have nothing to worry about.  But if you're lying, well... You have everything to hide.

Quote
Quote
I know the logical conclusion of not being able to work if your not vaccinated.
Same as if you get sick: you don't work.  Or you lie and say you're hung over.  Pretty simple.

Quote
Ergo, I am right and you, as usual, are wrong.

The world will be a much better place when you and people of your ilk are gone.
Considering I didn't say you were wrong, just bad at paraphrasing, I'm curious what I am wrong about.
Most everything in your life.
Good to know that you're stalking me and have spent unknown hours reading about my life.
Quote
Also... Why would me and my ilk be gone?  We're the followers.  The sheep.  We're the ones the powers want to keep.  You, however, are a problem for the New World Order.

Unless your ilk are the ones who are poisoning the vaccines to kill everyone else.
Yes, you would love for everyone to believe you are a sheep.
Don't you already think that?  Or are you the sheep?
I'm confused.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 13, 2021, 02:34:43 PM
Largely agreed but any measures should be proportionate to the risk those measures are designed to mitigate.
There are multiple factors involved in determining whether a measure is reasonable or not, and risk is only one of them. Another important factor is how much of a burden the regulation is on the individuals to whom it applies, and in this case it's asking them to take half an hour out of their busy schedule to take a treatment which approximately all experts agree is perfectly safe, and which may save other people's lives.

Most people go their entire life never being helped by a seatbelt, but it's considered reasonable to require everyone to wear them because it's not a huge inconvenience to buckle up.

I'm a bit unsettled at this creating a "two tier society", even if people are choosing which tier to be in.
I also don't agree with that assessment, incidentally. The purpose of these measures should not be to punish the unvaccinated, but to motivate them to get vaccinated. Once the vaccination rate levels off again, there is no longer a purpose to such restrictions and they should be abolished.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 13, 2021, 05:34:52 PM
https://youtu.be/DO7LxVDl76Y

The mandate would be unconstitutional.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2021, 05:55:17 PM
https://youtu.be/DO7LxVDl76Y

The mandate would be unconstitutional.

He's a tax lawyer and a youtube personality.  Not sure I'd trust his professional opinion.  Find me a constitutional lawyer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 13, 2021, 06:29:00 PM
I have a constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I expect the Constitution to protect me from ignorant Hillbillies spreading their viral pathogens and Putin's propaganda throughout the community.

There may be a stand your ground, self-defense angle to it as well. Stay the fuck away from me and my family with your disease or I'll blow your head off.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 13, 2021, 07:51:05 PM
https://youtu.be/DO7LxVDl76Y

The mandate would be unconstitutional.

He's a tax lawyer and a youtube personality.  Not sure I'd trust his professional opinion.  Find me a constitutional lawyer.

Yeah, the guy on the right is a tax lawer and the guy on the left is a Canadian litigator of some sort.

US courts will decide what's constitutional and what's not. Not these two knuckleheads.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 13, 2021, 08:00:45 PM
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you're wrong:

"Reuters reported on Aug. 23 that the FDA had granted full approval to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for use in people aged 16 and older. It would be marketed under the name Comirnaty (here).
The FDA state that Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA-approved (Emergency Use Authorization) Pfizer vaccine and is interchangeable (here).

“With full FDA approval, the company can officially give the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine a brand name, and that name is Comirnaty. So, people getting the vaccine can feel confident that it is both safe and effective”, Smith wrote.

The FDA told Reuters via email that one point of continuity is that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine will still be covered by the EUA for children aged 12 to 15 years old and for third doses to immunocompromised individuals aged 12 and older.
"

The confusion about the EUA still existing has to do with the last paragraph above.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 13, 2021, 08:03:28 PM
Yeah, the guy on the right is a tax lawer and the guy on the left is a Canadian litigator of some sort.
Seen videos from the bloke on the left before.
He spent months being wrong about the merit of all the cases Trump and his allies were filing. It’s nice to see he’s now turned his attention to (probably) being wrong about this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2021, 08:19:38 PM
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/13/1036521499/covid-workers-resign-new-york-hospital-stops-baby-delivery

Basically a bunch of baby healthcare staff quit instead of get a shot.
I hope they get no Unemployment and they starve! 

Fucking whiny bitches.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 13, 2021, 08:24:53 PM
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you're wrong:

"Reuters reported on Aug. 23 that the FDA had granted full approval to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for use in people aged 16 and older. It would be marketed under the name Comirnaty (here).
The FDA state that Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA-approved (Emergency Use Authorization) Pfizer vaccine and is interchangeable (here).

“With full FDA approval, the company can officially give the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine a brand name, and that name is Comirnaty. So, people getting the vaccine can feel confident that it is both safe and effective”, Smith wrote.

The FDA told Reuters via email that one point of continuity is that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine will still be covered by the EUA for children aged 12 to 15 years old and for third doses to immunocompromised individuals aged 12 and older.
"

The confusion about the EUA still existing has to do with the last paragraph above.
https://youtu.be/aiUFPDAlsLU
As usual, you're wrong.

Emphasis on the words, AS USUAL.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 13, 2021, 08:25:13 PM
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/13/1036521499/covid-workers-resign-new-york-hospital-stops-baby-delivery

Basically a bunch of baby healthcare staff quit instead of get a shot.
I hope they get no Unemployment and they starve! 

Fucking whiny bitches.

Those hospitals are far better off without them. Unvaccinated they would not be healers but killers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 13, 2021, 09:47:36 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 13, 2021, 10:26:31 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die. I know it's crude to put it that way but it's that simple. Idiots who refuse to get the vaccine are clogging up hospital beds. Give those beds to the responsible people who did what they could to prevent getting the virus. If you refused to do something that would have prevented you from being on life support, and somebody else needs that system, sorry about your luck.

Besides, everyone dies, right? They will die eventually whether on life support or not. According to reasoning you've used in this argument, it doesn't make a bit of difference when they die, so stop fearmongering!   >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 13, 2021, 10:27:00 PM
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you're wrong:

"Reuters reported on Aug. 23 that the FDA had granted full approval to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for use in people aged 16 and older. It would be marketed under the name Comirnaty (here).
The FDA state that Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA-approved (Emergency Use Authorization) Pfizer vaccine and is interchangeable (here).

“With full FDA approval, the company can officially give the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine a brand name, and that name is Comirnaty. So, people getting the vaccine can feel confident that it is both safe and effective”, Smith wrote.

The FDA told Reuters via email that one point of continuity is that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine will still be covered by the EUA for children aged 12 to 15 years old and for third doses to immunocompromised individuals aged 12 and older.
"

The confusion about the EUA still existing has to do with the last paragraph above.
As usual, you're wrong.

Emphasis on the words, AS USUAL.

So the guy on the right is saying that the law (Federal) states that if FDA approval is given to one vaccine then all of the EUA's for other vaccines are automatically revoked. I'm having a hard time finding that "law". Can you please point us to said law and not to just some tax attorney saying there is a law?

Since you never seem to provide any real sources, I'll help you out. I'm guessing the guy on the right is referring to this from the FDA:

d. No Alternatives

For FDA to issue an EUA, there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative to the candidate product for diagnosing, preventing, or treating the disease or condition. 
A potential alternative product may be considered “unavailable” if there are insufficient supplies of the approved alternative to fully meet the emergency need.  A potential alternative product may be considered "inadequate" if, for example, there are contraindicating data for special circumstances or populations (e.g., children, immunocompromised individuals, or individuals with a drug allergy), if a dosage form of an approved product is inappropriate for use in a special population (e.g., a tablet for individuals who cannot swallow pills), or if the agent is or may be resistant to approved and available alternative products.

https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/emergency-use-authorization-medical-products-and-related-authorities#medproducts

Key phrasing here, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative..." As we've seen Modern, Pfizer, & J&J all received EUA's. Why? Well, for one, each may not have been adequate on their own, they weren't approved, obvi, and availability is always an issue. Se they all got EUA's.

Now fast-forward to Pfizer's getting FDA approval for 16 an up. One, they still get to keep the EUA for between 12-16. For two, again, return to the phrase, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative". Moderna and J&J still get to keep their EUA's even though Pfizer is approved because:

- May not be adequate, ex., Moderna has had some issues regarding myocarditis with mostly teens (Pfizer too I think, but maybe not as pronounced as Moderna). J&J doesn't seem to have this issue.
- May not be available, ex., I could only get Pfizer at the time as Moderna and J&J were not available in my area. It's the other way around for a lot of folks.

So, unless your Tax Attorney is pointing to some other "law" I can't find, he is either woefully mis-informed or is deliberately mis-informing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2021, 11:38:29 PM
Yeah, the guy on the right is a tax lawer and the guy on the left is a Canadian litigator of some sort.
Seen videos from the bloke on the left before.
He spent months being wrong about the merit of all the cases Trump and his allies were filing. It’s nice to see he’s now turned his attention to (probably) being wrong about this.

To be fair, he’s probably just grifting people like Tom and Total Lackey for ad dollars.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2021, 04:11:57 AM
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/13/1036521499/covid-workers-resign-new-york-hospital-stops-baby-delivery

Basically a bunch of baby healthcare staff quit instead of get a shot.
I hope they get no Unemployment and they starve! 

Fucking whiny bitches.

Those hospitals are far better off without them. Unvaccinated they would not be healers but killers.

Except now maternity services are suspended and other staff are stretched thin.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2021, 04:15:34 AM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

I mean... Your insurance company and the hospital already have this power.  And you're afraid of the guys who need your support every 2-4 years?  As opposed to the guys you can't live without? (And can't change because they're all the same)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 10:07:57 AM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 10:09:51 AM
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you're wrong:

"Reuters reported on Aug. 23 that the FDA had granted full approval to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for use in people aged 16 and older. It would be marketed under the name Comirnaty (here).
The FDA state that Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA-approved (Emergency Use Authorization) Pfizer vaccine and is interchangeable (here).

“With full FDA approval, the company can officially give the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine a brand name, and that name is Comirnaty. So, people getting the vaccine can feel confident that it is both safe and effective”, Smith wrote.

The FDA told Reuters via email that one point of continuity is that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine will still be covered by the EUA for children aged 12 to 15 years old and for third doses to immunocompromised individuals aged 12 and older.
"

The confusion about the EUA still existing has to do with the last paragraph above.
As usual, you're wrong.

Emphasis on the words, AS USUAL.

So the guy on the right is saying that the law (Federal) states that if FDA approval is given to one vaccine then all of the EUA's for other vaccines are automatically revoked. I'm having a hard time finding that "law". Can you please point us to said law and not to just some tax attorney saying there is a law?

Since you never seem to provide any real sources, I'll help you out. I'm guessing the guy on the right is referring to this from the FDA:

d. No Alternatives

For FDA to issue an EUA, there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative to the candidate product for diagnosing, preventing, or treating the disease or condition. 
A potential alternative product may be considered “unavailable” if there are insufficient supplies of the approved alternative to fully meet the emergency need.  A potential alternative product may be considered "inadequate" if, for example, there are contraindicating data for special circumstances or populations (e.g., children, immunocompromised individuals, or individuals with a drug allergy), if a dosage form of an approved product is inappropriate for use in a special population (e.g., a tablet for individuals who cannot swallow pills), or if the agent is or may be resistant to approved and available alternative products.

https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/emergency-use-authorization-medical-products-and-related-authorities#medproducts

Key phrasing here, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative..." As we've seen Modern, Pfizer, & J&J all received EUA's. Why? Well, for one, each may not have been adequate on their own, they weren't approved, obvi, and availability is always an issue. Se they all got EUA's.

Now fast-forward to Pfizer's getting FDA approval for 16 an up. One, they still get to keep the EUA for between 12-16. For two, again, return to the phrase, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative". Moderna and J&J still get to keep their EUA's even though Pfizer is approved because:

- May not be adequate, ex., Moderna has had some issues regarding myocarditis with mostly teens (Pfizer too I think, but maybe not as pronounced as Moderna). J&J doesn't seem to have this issue.
- May not be available, ex., I could only get Pfizer at the time as Moderna and J&J were not available in my area. It's the other way around for a lot of folks.

So, unless your Tax Attorney is pointing to some other "law" I can't find, he is either woefully mis-informed or is deliberately mis-informing.
You remain wrong, because you want to ignore the word approved.

You can't find anything.

Not only are you wrong, you're just trolling the thread.

Nothing new from you here. All the same type of behavior we have seen from you in the past.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 14, 2021, 11:01:41 AM
Hey Lackey.....
Everything you say sounds just like what this guy was saying.

Now he's dead....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/radio-host-self-proclaimed-right-wing-religious-fanatic-bob-enyart-dies-of-covid-19/ar-AAOpohb?ocid=hplocalnews&li=BBnbfcL
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: jack44556677 on September 14, 2021, 11:10:56 AM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 14, 2021, 02:55:39 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???

Have you had a change of heart? Does a few extra years of life suddenly mean something to you? Please, at least solidify your own intent so we can understand your position better!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 14, 2021, 03:23:27 PM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf


Children's Health Defense is an American activist group mainly known for anti-vaccine activities and has been identified as one of the main sources of misinformation on vaccines.

.... and you think we're the ones being manipulated by the media?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 03:52:16 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.
Have you had a change of heart? Does a few extra years of life suddenly mean something to you? Please, at least solidify your own intent so we can understand your position better!
We all know your position.

On your knees or bent over.

Mine is standing up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 03:53:55 PM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf


Children's Health Defense is an American activist group mainly known for anti-vaccine activities and has been identified as one of the main sources of misinformation on vaccines.

.... and you think we're the ones being manipulated by the media?
Misinformation.

Rather than make that blanket statement, go ahead and point out exactly what is misinformation they issue regarding vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2021, 04:46:30 PM
Even if the severe side effects for the vaccine are rare, some people have low immunity and bad health, fall into that risk area, and are being forced to endanger their health with an experimental vaccine.

https://twitter.com/boocles42/status/1436326398688436224
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 14, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be a libertarian. I'm full-on liberal, always have been.

I guess I don't understand why you think life support is even important. It doesn't save someone from dying after all, since we all die. So why does it make a difference to you at all who the government would allow to use it?

That's why you're fearmongering here. You're hyping up a situation as overreach even though you don't believe in the usefulness of the situation anyway. If we all die anyway and it doesn't make any difference how or when (again, just using an argument you made previously here), why would such a hypothetical situation as you imagined I created bother you so?

Please, stop fearmongering.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 14, 2021, 04:55:59 PM

Misinformation.

Rather than make that blanket statement, go ahead and point out exactly what is misinformation they issue regarding vaccines.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/vaccine/ct-aud-nw-truth-about-vaccines-2020-20210513-mjaufrkivrabppmlbguvf5rbra-story.html

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/08/1004214189/anti-vaccine-film-targeted-to-black-americans-spreads-false-information

https://healthfeedback.org/outlet/childrens-health-defense/

https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/04/19/covid-vaccines-and-variants-childrens-health-defense-seeds-doubt-about-pfizers-shot-15483


Etc...  Etc....

You're falling for their bullshit just like you fell for Donald Trump's bullshit. Just like a guy I knew who fell for their bullshit and is in the ICU now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 14, 2021, 05:16:32 PM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf

I'm sure there are a lot of cases being brought regarding vaccines, masks, mandates, etc. But to simply say "there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product" is not doing any due diligence into how the laws are written.

In the case you cited it states, "The FDA purportedly managed to do what the law forbids: "approve" a vaccine but not revoke any Emergency Use Authorized vaccines for the same indication." Just because they wrote that in their complaint doesn't mean that it is a fact.

And they reference their interpretation of what I copied and pasted from the FDA regarding EUA's and "approvals". This particular case, sponsored by this "childrens health defense", from the complaint, they have previously filed to have Pfizer not get FDA approval and requested all EUA's be revoked. If you read the complaint it's a lot more about making it so mandates can't be mandated, so to speak. And this "can't have an approved vaccine and EUA's at the same time," business is sort of a trojan horse to get the real issue addressed: Mandates, especially in the private sector.

Obvi the courts will decide this, but I see no where where you can't have EUA's and Approved vaccines at the same time - Especially regarding the FDC's wording around , "available" & "adequate". It comes down to the language.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 05:20:37 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be a libertarian. I'm full-on liberal, always have been.

I guess I don't understand why you think life support is even important. It doesn't save someone from dying after all, since we all die. So why does it make a difference to you at all who the government would allow to use it?

That's why you're fearmongering here. You're hyping up a situation as overreach even though you don't believe in the usefulness of the situation anyway. If we all die anyway and it doesn't make any difference how or when (again, just using an argument you made previously here), why would such a hypothetical situation as you imagined I created bother you so?

Please, stop fearmongering.
I am not fearmongering.

I am making a statement regarding what I believe to be ill-based government policy decisions made by fiat and not based on scientific reality.

I am not afraid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 05:22:32 PM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf

I'm sure there are a lot of cases being brought regarding vaccines, masks, mandates, etc. But to simply say "there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product" is not doing any due diligence into how the laws are written.

In the case you cited it states, "The FDA purportedly managed to do what the law forbids: "approve" a vaccine but not revoke any Emergency Use Authorized vaccines for the same indication." Just because they wrote that in their complaint doesn't mean that it is a fact.

And they reference their interpretation of what I copied and pasted from the FDA regarding EUA's and "approvals". This particular case, sponsored by this "childrens health defense", from the complaint, they have previously filed to have Pfizer not get FDA approval and requested all EUA's be revoked. If you read the complaint it's a lot more about making it so mandates can't be mandated, so to speak. And this "can't have an approved vaccine and EUA's at the same time," business is sort of a trojan horse to get the real issue addressed: Mandates, especially in the private sector.

Obvi the courts will decide this, but I see no where where you can't have EUA's and Approved vaccines at the same time - Especially regarding the FDC's wording around , "available" & "adequate". It comes down to the language.
Yeah, more double speak.

You like to bring up available and adequate but ignore the word approved.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 14, 2021, 05:37:55 PM
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be a libertarian. I'm full-on liberal, always have been.

I guess I don't understand why you think life support is even important. It doesn't save someone from dying after all, since we all die. So why does it make a difference to you at all who the government would allow to use it?

That's why you're fearmongering here. You're hyping up a situation as overreach even though you don't believe in the usefulness of the situation anyway. If we all die anyway and it doesn't make any difference how or when (again, just using an argument you made previously here), why would such a hypothetical situation as you imagined I created bother you so?

Please, stop fearmongering.
I am not fearmongering.

I am making a statement regarding what I believe to be ill-based government policy decisions made by fiat and not based on scientific reality.

I am not afraid.

No, you're trying to make other people afraid. Obviously you're not afraid, you're railing against something your previously stated personal philosophy suggests you're actually indifferent to. That kind of makes your fearmongering worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 05:53:55 PM

No, you're trying to make other people afraid. Obviously you're not afraid, you're railing against something your previously stated personal philosophy suggests you're actually indifferent to. That kind of makes your fearmongering worse.
IF you somehow believe I am indifferent to governmental interference regarding private medical decisions, then your beliefs are as unfounded as your intellect.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2021, 05:54:14 PM
Even if the severe side effects for the vaccine are rare, some people have low immunity and bad health, fall into that risk area, and are being forced to endanger their health with an experimental vaccine.


The Pfizer Vaccine has been approved and has substantial data regarding it's safety and efficacy.  Experimental is a word you are using to politicize this.  Obviously no one wants anyone to suffer ill from taking the vaccine, but it's crucial to remember that every danger you can express about the vaccine is much more threatening if you contract the virus by orders of magnitude.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2021, 05:55:15 PM
Why is Total Lackey implying the Pfizer vaccine hasn't been approved?  Is this some Qanon talking point?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2021, 06:33:40 PM
Why is Total Lackey implying the Pfizer vaccine hasn't been approved?  Is this some Qanon talking point?

Because the Pfizer vaccine available to the US has not been approved. See this letter from the US Senate: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21054683-sen-johnson-letter-to-fdas-woodcock
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on September 14, 2021, 06:50:02 PM
long unnecessary quote block
Please, for the sake of anyone who might actually agree with you someday, learn to use the quote function
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 06:52:45 PM
long unnecessary quote block
Please, for the sake of anyone who might actually agree with you someday, learn to use the quote function
Please, stay on topic and have a nice day.

The FDA has not approved any version of the Covid vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2021, 07:15:48 PM
Wow, it really feels like the Tom and Lackey are grasping at straws here. Comirnaty is the COVID vaccine that has been approved and is manufactured by Pfizer-Biontech. It’s indicated for vaccination against COVID-19. This is some serious mental gymnastics.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2021, 07:52:27 PM
Wow, it really feels like the Tom and Lackey are grasping at straws here. Comirnaty is the COVID vaccine that has been approved and is manufactured by Pfizer-Biontech. It’s indicated for vaccination against COVID-19. This is some serious mental gymnastics.

They approved a vaccine not available in the US. From the Senate letter (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21054683-sen-johnson-letter-to-fdas-woodcock):

(https://i.imgur.com/ADUzf5p.png)

This person claims to have surveyed clinics in Brookings, South Dakota. It wasn't availiable:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CxJ6WRsg00YJ:https://m.facebook.com/BrookingsRegister/posts/3903900656330827+&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

(https://i.imgur.com/bqqeW8B.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2021, 08:03:11 PM
Wow, it really feels like the Tom and Lackey are grasping at straws here. Comirnaty is the COVID vaccine that has been approved and is manufactured by Pfizer-Biontech. It’s indicated for vaccination against COVID-19. This is some serious mental gymnastics.

They approved a vaccine not available in the US. From the Senate letter (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21054683-sen-johnson-letter-to-fdas-woodcock):

(https://i.imgur.com/ADUzf5p.png)

This person claims to have surveyed clinics in Brookings, South Dakota. It wasn't availiable:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CxJ6WRsg00YJ:https://m.facebook.com/BrookingsRegister/posts/3903900656330827+&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

(https://i.imgur.com/bqqeW8B.png)

It says “not generally available” implying it’s available in some form. But hey if it’s not available in Brookings, South Dakota that MUST mean it hasn’t be approved. You know, approval and availability are totally the same thing. Like I said, some serious mental gymnastics going on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2021, 08:03:26 PM
From a newspaper:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/newly-approved-covid-19-vaccine-not-yet-available-in-us_3976794.html

(https://i.imgur.com/bD1E6Tx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/vyeqT3r.png)

Quote
You know, approval and availability are totally the same thing.

Obviously people can't take a mandated FDA-approved vaccine that's not available. Pfizer may be doing this purposely to avoid liability because it enjoys certain indemnity under the Emergency Use version.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 14, 2021, 08:16:47 PM
If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die. I know it's crude to put it that way but it's that simple. Idiots who refuse to get the vaccine are clogging up hospital beds. Give those beds to the responsible people who did what they could to prevent getting the virus.
You are going down a pretty dangerous rabbit hole there. People do dumb stuff all the time (like smoke, drink to excess, get very fat) which increase the likelihood of them clogging up hospital beds.
Are you suggesting we should reserve the beds for the tee total, non smoking vegans?

I have some sympathy for the vaccine hesitant (while also sharing some of your frustration with them). Especially in an era where people who have fallen down certain conspiracy theory rabbit holes are bombarded by nonsense which validates their view that the vaccine is dangerous / experimental / ineffective.

A factor here is surely how many beds they are clogging up. In the UK the numbers are relatively low right now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 14, 2021, 08:26:55 PM
Obviously people can't take a mandated FDA-approved vaccine that's not available. Pfizer may be doing this purposely to avoid liability because it enjoys certain indemnity under the Emergency Use version.

What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there. And isn't there some crazy cooling environment that needs to be maintained for the Pfizer vax? It seems like you can't just ship tons of it with such a tenuous shelf-life and just have it hanging around when you have vials and vials of the same stuff already. Other countries may not have the vax surplus we may have, so maybe some will start getting the new labeled stuff sooner. Don't know.

Even your lazy mis-information dumpster fire that is Epoch Times states that the newly labeled stuff might be out in US markets in October, yah know, just a couple to a few weeks away. I don't think that plays into the "let's keep the EUA so we can't get sued" narrative. I mean what's the difference between now and few weeks from now?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2021, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: stash
What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there.

Wrong. It's not the same formula. Maybe do some research before repeating falsities.

From the FDA - https://web.archive.org/web/20210913042547/https://www.fda.gov/media/151733/download

see page 14: 4. NonclinicalPharmacology/Toxicology

"COMIRNATY and BNT162b2 (V8) have identical amino acid sequences of the encoded antigens but COMIRNATY includes the presence of optimized codons to improve antigen expression."

The BNT162b2 vaccine referenced is the FDA EUA version:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Pfizer-BioNTech.html

Quote
General Information
Name: BNT162b2

Manufacturer: Pfizer, Inc., and BioNTech

Type of Vaccine: mRNA

Number of Shots: 2 shots, 21 days apart
Some immunocompromised people should get 3 shots

Comirnaty is also touted as "legally distinct", which may have legal ramification in the case of adverse events.

Quote from: stash
I mean what's the difference between now and few weeks from now?

It being not available simply means that it's not available. In a few weeks the source who thinks it might be a few weeks away may be saying that they think it might be a few weeks more, just like they probably thought a few weeks ago. No one can take the FDA-approved vaccine in the US if they wanted to. If someone has to get vaccinated now by their employer they can't choose to take the FDA-approved vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 14, 2021, 09:33:16 PM
Quote from: stash
What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there.

Wrong. It's not the same formula. Maybe do some research before repeating falsities.

Maybe you should take your own advice. Why don't you explain to us how the presence of "optimized codons" changes the formulation that is still considered the same formulation by the FDA?

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

I'm sure you know a lot more about optimized codons than anyone here or at the FDA.

Comirnaty is also touted as "legally distinct", which may have legal ramification in the case of adverse events.

I'm sure it does. Probably means they can charge way more than $20 a jab for it too. Seems like the norm for big pharma.

Quote from: stash
I mean what's the difference between now and few weeks from now?

It being not available simply means that it's not available. In a few weeks they may be saying that they think it might be a few weeks more, just like they probably thought a few weeks ago. No one can take the FDA-approved vaccine in the US if they wanted to. If someone has to get vaccinated now by their employer they can't choose to take the FDA-approved vaccine.

Rather speculative..."In a few weeks, maybe they'll say in another few weeks..." and so on. Maybe. Speculation duly noted.

When my wife was mandated by her employer to get vaxxed, she couldn't choose J&J or Moderna because they weren't available. So what?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 10:00:27 PM
This is Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of mRNA vaccine technology. Worth a listen. https://youtu.be/iwPKnOhJRYg
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 14, 2021, 10:18:31 PM
If that's worth a watch, then this is worth a read

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/


Too long to quote but suffice to say, I'm getting my 2nd shot of Pfizer today 8)

See you on www.sorryantivaxxer.com where I'll be sure to LOL at you
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 10:29:22 PM
If that's worth a watch, then this is worth a read

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/


Too long to quote but suffice to say, I'm getting my 2nd shot of Pfizer today 8)

See you on www.sorryantivaxxer.com where I'll be sure to LOL at you
The article you provide has a fkng strawman right off the bat:

"Robert Malone claims to have invented mRNA technology. Why is he trying so hard to undermine its use?"

He isn't trying to undermine the vaccine.

If you're going to continue in your habit of posting lies, you need to leave.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 14, 2021, 10:47:53 PM

No, you're trying to make other people afraid. Obviously you're not afraid, you're railing against something your previously stated personal philosophy suggests you're actually indifferent to. That kind of makes your fearmongering worse.
IF you somehow believe I am indifferent to governmental interference regarding private medical decisions, then your beliefs are as unfounded as your intellect.

But why? If your opinion is we all die anyway so who cares how or how quickly, why does this even matter to you?

They're just beds, really. Nothing is being done to help them because they are going to die anyway.

It looks like life and well-being take on some significance when you think it supports your argument, but you don't give a shit about either when it doesn't. It's just hypocritical.

As an aside, are you okay with it when insurance companies make such private medical decisions for people? That's the system we have in this country now; insurance companies decide who lives or dies in many cases. Does that make you angry too?

Also I assume you're pro-choice?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 14, 2021, 10:54:34 PM

No, you're trying to make other people afraid. Obviously you're not afraid, you're railing against something your previously stated personal philosophy suggests you're actually indifferent to. That kind of makes your fearmongering worse.
IF you somehow believe I am indifferent to governmental interference regarding private medical decisions, then your beliefs are as unfounded as your intellect.

But why? If your opinion is we all die anyway so who cares how or how quickly, why does this even matter to you?

They're just beds, really. Nothing is being done to help them because they are going to die anyway.

It looks like life and well-being take on some significance when you think it supports your argument, but you don't give a shit about either when it doesn't. It's just hypocritical.

As an aside, are you okay with it when insurance companies make such private medical decisions for people? That's the system we have in this country now; insurance companies decide who lives or dies in many cases. Does that make you angry too?

Also I assume you're pro-choice?
Funny how you believe a statement of fact =opinion.

Insight is your friend.

Try to exercise that more than your feeble trolling.

Ivermectin now showing results in Africa,  Japan,  India.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 14, 2021, 11:16:45 PM
You don't even want try to answer? Telling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 14, 2021, 11:19:22 PM
If you're going to continue in your habit of posting lies, you need to leave.

LOL be careful of the standards you set, lackless. People might hold you to it some day

The muppet you refer to took the vaccine after getting infected with covid. Then blames his body 'never being the same' on the vaccine. (couldn't possibly be covid) ::)

His claim 'to be the inventor' of mRNA tech is also questionable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 15, 2021, 05:04:42 AM
Quote from: stash
What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there.

Wrong. It's not the same formula. Maybe do some research before repeating falsities.

Maybe you should take your own advice. Why don't you explain to us how the presence of "optimized codons" changes the formulation that is still considered the same formulation by the FDA?

If you want to know what they do look it up yourself. You claimed it was the same formula. It's not, as stated by the FDA.

Quote from: stack
Rather speculative..."In a few weeks, maybe they'll say in another few weeks..." and so on. Maybe. Speculation duly noted.

You cited speculation. The source said October "at the earliest", while other sources in the article said there was no timeframe available.

(https://i.imgur.com/kIoklzG.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mml6Fhf.png)

Quote from: stack
When my wife was mandated by her employer to get vaxxed, she couldn't choose J&J or Moderna because they weren't available. So what?

What does your wife's irresponsible life choices have to do with this?

It was claimed in this thread that the vaccine was FDA approved and this approval was given as justification for the vaccine mandates. This reasoning and justification is flawed since the vaccine that was approved is not available in the US.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 15, 2021, 06:20:22 AM
Quote from: stash
What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there.

Wrong. It's not the same formula. Maybe do some research before repeating falsities.

Maybe you should take your own advice. Why don't you explain to us how the presence of "optimized codons" changes the formulation that is still considered the same formulation by the FDA?

If you want to know what they do look it up yourself. You claimed it was the same formula. It's not, as stated by the FDA.

I did look it up. The FDA seems to disagree with you. You seemed to have missed what was posted before, from the FDA as part of their approval (My bolding, and a little red, this time so maybe you won't miss it):

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Again, I'm sure you know a lot more about optimized codons than anyone here or at the FDA. Lay it on us why the FDA says it's the same formulation but your insight into codon optimization is contrary to what the FDA says. School us.

Quote from: stack
Rather speculative..."In a few weeks, maybe they'll say in another few weeks..." and so on. Maybe. Speculation duly noted.

You cited speculation. The source said October "at earliest", while other sources in the article said there was no timeframe available.

(https://i.imgur.com/kIoklzG.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mml6Fhf.png)

Great, so how does this fit into some sort of no liability narrative? Still speculative. One person says maybe October. Another says they don't have a timeline. So what? What's the narrative you'r trying to assert?

Quote from: stack
When my wife was mandated by her employer to get vaxxed, she couldn't choose J&J or Moderna because they weren't available. So what?

What does your wife's irresponsible life choices have to do with this?

Irresponsible? This seems irresponsible: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

In answer to your question, availability of specific vaxs or lack thereof. Which seems to be contentious for some reason. I don't know why.

It was claimed in this thread that the vaccine was FDA approved and this approval was given as justification for the vaccine mandates. This reasoning and justification is flawed since the vaccine that was approved is not available in the US.

I might of missed it. Who claimed that "approval was given as justification for the vaccine mandates"? I think there's some case law around States mandating approved vaccines going back to the 20's & 50's (As in 1920's and 1950's). So yeah, I think "approved" vaccines might make it easier, legally, to require mandates. As for "flawed justification", it seems very complicated. But that said, the Biden mandates will definitely get mired in the courts. No doubt about that. Your opinion on the matter is noted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 15, 2021, 07:40:09 AM
I did look it up. The FDA seems to disagree with you. You seemed to have missed what was posted before, from the FDA as part of their approval (My bolding, and a little red, this time so maybe you won't miss it):

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Your understanding of same formulation is incorrect. The FDA defines their meaning of same formulation right here on their definitions page:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=314.3

Sec. 314.3 Definitions.

Quote
Same drug product formulation is the formulation of the drug product submitted for approval and any formulations that have minor differences in composition or method of manufacture from the formulation submitted for approval, but are similar enough to be relevant to the Agency's determination of bioequivalence.

It's a different composition that is determined to have 'bioequivalence'.

Bioequivalence is also defined on that page:

Quote
Bioequivalence is the absence of a significant difference in the rate and extent to which the active ingredient or active moiety in pharmaceutical equivalents or pharmaceutical alternatives becomes available at the site of drug action when administered at the same molar dose under similar conditions in an appropriately designed study. Where there is an intentional difference in rate (e.g., in certain extended-release dosage forms), certain pharmaceutical equivalents or alternatives may be considered bioequivalent if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action.

The definition includes extended-release dosages and alternatives. So their terminology is fairly loose. Same formulation means that it may have a different composition but they think it's equivalent. According to the above definition it could be a completely different alternative drug and still be a 'same formulation'.

Quote
Again, I'm sure you know a lot more about optimized codons than anyone here or at the FDA. Lay it on us why the FDA says it's the same formulation but your insight into codon optimization is contrary to what the FDA says. School us.

'Same formulation' is defined by the FDA above. It's not what you think it means.

Regarding the codon optimization, if you want to learn about it I would recommend researching the topic yourself. It deals with genetic engineering:

http://2014.igem.org/Team:Penn_State/CodonOptimization

Quote
Codon optimization refers to the idea that the individual codons of a gene in a specific organism can be changed in order to alter the behavior of that organism. This relies on an understanding of the central dogma of biology, which states that any organism produces proteins by first transcribing genetic material in the form of DNA to RNA, which is then “read” by ribosomes which produce proteins based on the sequence of amino acids in that RNA. The reading of the RNA is done three nucleotides at a time, and these three letter series of nucleotides are called codons. Codons specify to the ribosome which amino acid to add to a growing amino acid chain.

There are 4 nucleotides, thus 43, or 64 codons are possible. Since there are only 20 amino acids, there is redundancy in the codons, that is, some amino acids are specified by multiple codons. There is no ambiguity, however, meaning that each codon specifies only one amino acid. Codons that code for the same amino acid are called degenerate codons, and even though these degenerate codons code for the same amino acid, they do not necessarily lead to the same expression levels of that amino acid.

Quote from: stack
Great, so how does this fit into some sort of no liability narrative? Still speculative. One person says maybe October. Another says they don't have a timeline. So what? What's the narrative you'r trying to assert?

The narrative is that the FDA did not approve a vaccine that's available. I don't see that this is incorrect.

Quote from: stack
Irresponsible? This seems irresponsible: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

Yet you know that they changed the way Covid deaths are defined differently compared to other diseases, making your list meaningless and speculative. In years past deaths were not reported as a flu death if they die from a motorcycle accident. Those people could have had an asymptomatic Covid disease but died of something completely unrelated according to some of these quotes -

Oregon Health Authority:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

Dr. Birx says the same:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

At Tuesday's White House coronavirus press conference, task force member Dr. Deborah Birx said that while some countries are reporting coronavirus fatality numbers differently, in the U.S. you are counted as a victim of the pandemic if you die while testing positive for the virus, even if something else causes your death.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX: "So, I think in this country we've taken a very liberal approach to mortality. And I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn't testing in January and February that's a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem some countries are recording as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we are still recording it and we will I mean the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to market as COVID-19 infection the intent is right now that those if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

Illinois Department of Public Health said they count the same way:

https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

Quote
IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified

Still, the department's Director, Dr. Ngozi Ezike used part of her time during Sunday's health briefing to explain how the department determines if a death is related to Coronavirus.

Essentially, Dr. Ezike explained that anyone who passes away after testing positive for the virus is included in that category.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

She reiterated Illinois health officials will continue to work vigorously to protect the state's most vulnerable populations.

Lots of quotes and examples here:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated

Quote
“I think a lot of clinicians are putting that condition (COVID-19) on death certificates when it might not be accurate because they died with coronavirus and not of coronavirus,” Macomb County, Mich., Chief Medical Examiner Daniel Spitz in an interview with the Ann Arbor News last month.

...

Colorado counted a man who a county coroner said died of acute alcohol poisoning as a COVID-19 death.

Montezuma County Coroner George Deavers told the Durango Herald the man’s blood-alcohol level was 0.55, or almost seven times the legal driving limit of 0.08 in Colorado. A BAC of 0.3 is considered lethal.

“COVID was not listed on the death certificate as the cause of death,” Deavers said, the paper reported Wednesday. “I disagree with the state for listing it as a COVID death, and will be discussing it with them this week.”

...

News reports have identified the man as Sebastian Yellow, 35, and reported that he was found dead by police May 4.

The Montezuma County Public Health Department also was refusing to report Yellow's death as a COVID-19 death. “The state is reporting that death as a COVID death, but our health department wanted to let people know that even though the person did have the virus, they did not die from it,” the agency said.

In response to a request for comment about Yellow’s death, the Colorado Department of Health told KCNC-TV that it classifies a death as confirmed when there is a positive SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) laboratory test.


...

Last month, the same agency reclassified three deaths at a Centennial nursing home as COVID-19 deaths, challenging the findings of attending physicians who ruled the deaths were unrelated to the virus.

The deaths occurred at Someren Glen, where four other residents died of COVID-19. The state has now recorded all seven deaths as COVID-19 deaths.

“We have never seen a situation where the health department overrules a physician’s findings,” Tim Rogers, the facility’s executive director, told KCNC. “However, these are unprecedented times and the health department official did not share their motivation for changing physician’s orders.”

A health department spokesman told the station of those deaths that the agency was following CDC guidance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 15, 2021, 08:36:05 AM
I did look it up. The FDA seems to disagree with you. You seemed to have missed what was posted before, from the FDA as part of their approval (My bolding, and a little red, this time so maybe you won't miss it):

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Your understanding of same formulation is incorrect. The FDA defines their meaning of same formulation right here on their definitions page:

I’m not sure why we are going over this again. It’s not “my understanding”. The FDA literally states, as seen above for the third time:

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"

I really don’t get how their usage of the words “have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably”, somehow is lost on you.

It seems you disagree with the FDA and their approval of the Pfizer vax. Good for you. Have fun with that.

And I have no idea where you’re going with all the Birx quotes and such.

The bottom line, if you don’t agree with the FDA and their approval, take it up with your congressperson. In the mean time the FDA approved the Pfizer vax and their stance is that it’s the same formulation as the EUA.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 15, 2021, 08:59:21 AM
Repeating yourself? Same formulation has a particular meaning for the FDA. It doesn't mean that the composition is the same. And obviously not, since they specify that there are differences. They define what they mean. You just have to go and look it up. I provided the definitions to you here:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=314.3

Sec. 314.3 Definitions.

Quote
Same drug product formulation is the formulation of the drug product submitted for approval and any formulations that have minor differences in composition or method of manufacture from the formulation submitted for approval, but are similar enough to be relevant to the Agency's determination of bioequivalence.

It's a different composition that is determined to have 'bioequivalence'.

Bioequivalence is also defined on that page:

Quote
Bioequivalence is the absence of a significant difference in the rate and extent to which the active ingredient or active moiety in pharmaceutical equivalents or pharmaceutical alternatives becomes available at the site of drug action when administered at the same molar dose under similar conditions in an appropriately designed study. Where there is an intentional difference in rate (e.g., in certain extended-release dosage forms), certain pharmaceutical equivalents or alternatives may be considered bioequivalent if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action.

The definition includes extended-release dosages and alternatives. So their terminology is fairly loose. Same formulation means that it may have a different composition but they think it's equivalent. According to the above definition it could be a completely different alternative drug and still be a 'same formulation'.

See "if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action" - It could have a completely different delivery mechanism, but as long as it puts the active ingredient in the right place, it's bioequivalent.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 15, 2021, 09:18:35 AM
Hey Tom, did you get vaccinated? You look old. Hope you protected yourself
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 15, 2021, 10:19:40 AM
 I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 15, 2021, 10:39:43 AM
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

I wonder if Tom takes the threat of Covid seriously. It's already killed more Americans in less than 2 years then every war and conflict and terrorist act over the last 120 years.

Everyone is going to get covid eventually. Even I'm resigned to that fact. Maybe not this year or next, but as sure as I get a cold, I'll get covid.

Tom will too. Will he ensure he's protected as much as able? Or will we see him on sorry antivaxxer.com?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2021, 10:40:56 AM
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

He'll just keep.pushing the date back, like Trump's reinstatement.

So next month we'll all die by Christmas.
After that sometime in 2022.
Eventually he'll push it back to 2100 and proclaim victory.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: nthurd on September 15, 2021, 12:07:47 PM
If you're going to continue in your habit of posting lies, you need to leave.

LOL be careful of the standards you set, lackless. People might hold you to it some day

The muppet you refer to took the vaccine after getting infected with covid. Then blames his body 'never being the same' on the vaccine. (couldn't possibly be covid) ::)

His claim 'to be the inventor' of mRNA tech is also questionable.

I got from this article that consensus of the scientists is that the "muppet" is an asshole but might well deserve a Nobel for his input in development of mRNA.
Funny how the articles "tone" paints him as a cook, while facts presented in the article tell different story.

Logic behind "got covid, blames vaccine" looks like based on observation "got covid, had symptoms, got vaccinated -> more symptoms". Sketchy, anecdotal but possible.

BTW I am getting J&J tomorrow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 15, 2021, 12:08:14 PM
Lots of quotes and examples here:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated

Perfect. Tom you are quoting a Fox News article that is over a year old. A hundred thousand people in the US have died since then including two that I know. The reporter that wrote that article along with most of the Fox staff are now vaccinated.

Here's that same reporter a year later:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/the-number-of-positive-coronavirus-tests-in-new-york-climb-to-highest-since-early-june

You are being played. These people are using you as a mindless minion to attack the left. Covid is just their latest issue like the homosexual agenda or the rise of socialism. And just like a guy I know, you might end up reposting their lies from your hospital bed while the vaccinated Fox news crew goes out to dinner and bitches about liberals.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/11/business/media/vaccines-fox-news-hosts.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 15, 2021, 01:57:04 PM
You forget the law of large numbers

A covid fatality rate of 1%.... Letting covid rip through America would cause millions of deaths
I'm not forgetting that. I never claimed that this was a "nothing to see here" situation as some are doing.
It was clearly a situation which required a response. I'm not convinced the response was right, but that's a different debate.
So yes, the restrictions were needed and the vaccine rollout important. No argument there.

Quote
And lets be honest, covid is here to stay and will continue to mutate and affect you again and again and it's going to catch everyone eventually - like 'The Cold'. Imagine a 1% CFR each time it mutates and turns into something else. You want to take that chance year after year? Natural immunity wont work. Just like getting infected with influenza wont protect you next year from influenza

I don't know about that. The Spanish Flu killed 50 million people worldwide, we don't have that every year now. I don't know whether people just collectively developed immunity but these things tend not to last forever, that one lasted 2 years. If this is the same then we're not out of the woods yet but we do have the vaccine this time which hopefully will yield a better outcome.

Quote
Currently the overwhelming majority of covid related deaths (as in ~99%) now are among the unvaccinated. The breakthrough infections that lead to death are usually in people with co-morbidities or elderly. In a place like America, to not be vaccinated at this point in time is because you chose not to.
Right. And that's the same in the UK. People are choosing to not get vaccinated, it is mostly them who are getting ill.
The question is what do you do about that? It's their lookout if they do something (or don't do something) which means they're more likely to get ill. But as I said to Roundy, people do things all the time which make them more likely to get ill. We generally don't deny them treatment because of it.

I generally think people should get vaccinated. But some people are acting like those who don't are a serious danger to themselves and everyone around them. I'd agree they are increasing the risk to themselves and others. But enough that they should be denied access to certain venues or certain jobs? I'm not so sure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on September 15, 2021, 04:07:05 PM
then your beliefs are as unfounded as your intellect.

Keep it in AR. Warned.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 15, 2021, 04:14:15 PM
I generally think people should get vaccinated. But some people are acting like those who don't are a serious danger to themselves and everyone around them. I'd agree they are increasing the risk to themselves and others. But enough that they should be denied access to certain venues or certain jobs? I'm not so sure.

If it's my venue or my job I should have the right to say stay the fuck away from us you diseased freak.

It's the same thing conservatives have told homosexuals for years.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on September 15, 2021, 04:20:21 PM
1 in 500 Americans.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/15/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

But hey, it's just the flu.  Who needs a vax.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on September 15, 2021, 05:08:22 PM
The unhealthy. They need the vax. Everyone else will be fine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2021, 05:17:01 PM
The unhealthy. They need the vax. Everyone else will be fine.
Young and healthy people also die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 15, 2021, 06:04:43 PM
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

I wonder if Tom takes the threat of Covid seriously. It's already killed more Americans in less than 2 years then every war and conflict and terrorist act over the last 120 years.

Everyone is going to get covid eventually. Even I'm resigned to that fact. Maybe not this year or next, but as sure as I get a cold, I'll get covid.

Tom will too. Will he ensure he's protected as much as able? Or will we see him on sorry antivaxxer.com?

What are you talking about? If they are counting people who died of motorcycle accidents, unrelated ailments, alcohol poisonings, and chronically ill people who were previously given a few weeks to live as Covid deaths like it says in those quotes then you are being lied to and your premise is based on a falsity. Can you agree that if the quotes are true then your world view is false?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 15, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
I generally think people should get vaccinated. But some people are acting like those who don't are a serious danger to themselves and everyone around them. I'd agree they are increasing the risk to themselves and others. But enough that they should be denied access to certain venues or certain jobs? I'm not so sure.

If it's my venue or my job I should have the right to say stay the fuck away from us you diseased freak.

It's the same thing conservatives have told homosexuals for years.
Well, sure. Then the market decides.
Nightclubs which would only let vaccinated people in might go bust. Or maybe they wouldn’t, that might be a popular thing if people feel unsafe around unvaccinated.
So sure, private businesses do have a right to decide who they serve up to a point - that point being when it’s discriminatory as defined by certain protected criteria.
 
But if the government declares that only vaccinated people can do certain things, that’s where I feel a dangerous precedent is being set. Unless unvaccinated people pose such a big risk to others I guess, but I don’t really buy that’s the case here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 15, 2021, 07:28:09 PM
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

I wonder if Tom takes the threat of Covid seriously. It's already killed more Americans in less than 2 years then every war and conflict and terrorist act over the last 120 years.

Everyone is going to get covid eventually. Even I'm resigned to that fact. Maybe not this year or next, but as sure as I get a cold, I'll get covid.

Tom will too. Will he ensure he's protected as much as able? Or will we see him on sorry antivaxxer.com?

What are you talking about? If they are counting people who died of motorcycle accidents, unrelated ailments, alcohol poisonings, and chronically ill people who were previously given a few weeks to live as Covid deaths like it says in those quotes then you are being lied to and your premise is based on a falsity. Can you agree that if the quotes are true then your world view is false?

You consistently ignore available statistics on excess deaths. There are also agencies that say deaths have been undercounted. I know it would soothe your troubled soul if over 600,000 Americans had not in fact died from COVID, but that’s simply not the world we live in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 15, 2021, 08:06:28 PM
You consistently ignore available statistics on excess deaths.

Incorrect. I didn't. We talked about that the last time it was brought up.

Excess deaths were up in general.

https://www.kxl.com/study-shows-increase-in-non-covid-deaths-during-pandemic/

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People being afraid of going to the hospital means that there were excess deaths.

Another one that looked at the first three months of the pandemic:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0033350620304467

Quote
COVID-19 has created an environment for excess deaths not due to the virus.

~

Conclusions: There have been more excess deaths in several age group and gender cohorts during the first three months of the pandemic, beyond direct deaths directly attributable to COVID-19.


Also, and again, they changed the way deaths were reported for Covid to include anyone who died 'with' Covid rather than 'of' Covid, unlike the reporting for the flu deaths and other diseases, inflating the Covid death toll.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on September 15, 2021, 08:46:51 PM
guys just give it up. tom has already proven that everyone in 2020 died of a motorcycle accident. he found a website that says so.

checkmate, atheists.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 15, 2021, 08:47:40 PM
You consistently ignore available statistics on excess deaths.

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People being afraid of going to the hospital means that there were excess deaths.

No doubt people were (are) afraid. And the ones listed above are exactly the folks who have co-morbidities that would further scare them with the notion of gasping for air, like they are drowning, and dying on a ventilator because of covid.

What's the breakdown of excess non-covid deaths due to fear of hospitals versus excess deaths due to covid?

And wouldn't vaccination, lowering covid numbers in general, help to lower that fear level?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 15, 2021, 09:14:52 PM
Fox News going mask-off:

https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-praises-fox-strict-new-covid-19-vaccine-test-policy-2021-9?utm_source=reddit.com
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 15, 2021, 10:04:46 PM
I wonder if this means Tucker has to get tested daily?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 15, 2021, 10:21:45 PM
He’s almost certainly vaccinated. He’s a descipable grifter, but he’s not an idiot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 16, 2021, 02:30:33 AM
guys just give it up. tom has already proven that everyone in 2020 died of a motorcycle accident. he found a website that says so.

checkmate, atheists.

I know some of people that were in that motorcycle accident. It was pretty fucked up.

It's weird how so many people are having motorcycle accidents.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: jack44556677 on September 16, 2021, 07:16:48 AM
but I see no where where you can't have EUA's and Approved vaccines at the same time

If there isn't one, that is criminal.  It turns out there is (for obvious reason).

You need to learn to read between the lines.

If I, as a pharma, have an eua (RENEWED AFTER the "approval"), I don't want an approval (acutely in our current example).  If a pharma company could have both, they would obviously always distribute under eua, and NEVER under approval - because commercial products carry liability.

The crooks in the pharma industry and their vassal the fda need to be spanked in the public square (if not drawn and quartered)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 16, 2021, 07:34:52 AM
The crooks in the pharma industry and their vassal the fda need to be spanked in the public square (if not drawn and quartered)

We all hate big pharma. Just look at the vioxx scandal. That drug probably killed just as many as covid has. But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of it is BS

Vaccines save lives and just looking at the mechanism of how vaccines work, I can't see what long term F up they will do to a human. I bet taking aspirin, ibuprofen or paracetamol carries far more risk and people take those every day. People shoot up on narcotics and come out the other side. We turn our brains to mush getting pissed on alcohol. We consume (well you Americans) 150lb of sugar every year. We have zero issues with artificial colours, flavours, preservatives, sweeteners, transfers etc and where is the pay off in consuming any of that?

The pay off to a vaccine shot saves people's lives. Perhaps the person's very own. And so much resentment. So much aversion. So much BS conspiracy theories

FFS People need perspective ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2021, 08:35:55 AM
In the Covid deaths there are an average of four comorbidities, with only 5% of deaths indicated as Covid as the only cause according to the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

Quote
For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.

Covid has a 99.7% survival rate:

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/doctor-sees-covid-19-survival-rate-through-people-and-loss-not-statistics/531-83b9969d-87b9-41f4-b3c8-c6fc2fad8c9f

Quote
According to Johns Hopkins University, 98 percent of people survive COVID-19, and new data from Indiana researchers is more encouraging, calculating a 99.7 percent survival rate.

So 5% of the 0.3% of cases resulting in death were attributed to Covid and for the other 95% of that 0.3%, the patient had an average of four other serious ailments.

That's like saying you were one of the unlucky few who died of Covid and it's a coincidence you just happened to be obese, have cancer, high blood pressure, and then had a heart attack.

(https://i.imgur.com/EZYBarx.png)

Imaging being so scared of a scam pandemic that you inject yourself with a rushed vaccine with no long term safety data.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 16, 2021, 09:23:46 AM
In the Covid deaths there are an average of four comorbidities, with only 5% of deaths indicated as Covid as the only cause according to the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

Quote
For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.

Covid has a 99.7% survival rate:

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/doctor-sees-covid-19-survival-rate-through-people-and-loss-not-statistics/531-83b9969d-87b9-41f4-b3c8-c6fc2fad8c9f

Quote
According to Johns Hopkins University, 98 percent of people survive COVID-19, and new data from Indiana researchers is more encouraging, calculating a 99.7 percent survival rate.

So 5% of the 0.3% of cases resulting in death were attributed to Covid and for the other 95% of that 0.3%, the patient had an average of four other serious ailments.

That's like saying you were one of the unlucky few who died of Covid and it's a coincidence you just happened to be obese, have cancer, high blood pressure, and then had a heart attack.

(https://i.imgur.com/EZYBarx.png)

Imaging being so scared of a scam pandemic that you inject yourself with a rushed vaccine with no long term safety data.

Comorbidites include things like obesity, high blood pressure and diabetes which accounts for many millions of yanks

Then there are immuno compromised people and pregnant women. Clearly you don't give a shit about any of those groups given your previous posts devaluing if their lifes value

You forget the law of large numbers. Inside millions of infections will have many younger people included. Already here in Oz, not that many infected but quite a few in their 20's and 30's already 6ft under. And some were healthy with no comorbities. Totally preventable with a vaccine

Lets hope you get infected so you can see first hand and report back whether this really is a 'scam'
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 09:28:39 AM
In the Covid deaths there are an average of four comorbidities, with only 5% of deaths indicated as Covid as the only cause according to the CDC

Well, of course. These sorts of diseases rarely kill young, healthy people. That has nothing to do with anything.
During a regular flu season the people who die aren't generally young and fit, they're people who are already old and vulnerable.

Excess deaths were up in general.

From some causes, but not from others.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234

Quote
COVID-19 was the third leading cause of death in 2020, with an estimated 345 323 deaths, and was largely responsible for the substantial increase in total deaths from 2019 to 2020. Substantial increases from 2019 to 2020 also occurred for several other leading causes. Heart disease deaths increased by 4.8%, the largest increase in heart disease deaths since 2012. Increases in deaths also occurred for unintentional injury (11.1%), Alzheimer disease (9.8%), and diabetes (15.4%). Influenza and pneumonia deaths in 2020 increased by 7.5%, although the number of deaths was lower in 2020 than in 2017 and 2018. From 2019 to 2020, deaths due to chronic lower respiratory disease declined by 3.4% and suicide deaths declined by 5.6%.

So, you're basically right BUT the increase in deaths from those other causes nowhere near accounts for the total increase in mortality. Here are some graphs I made from the data in that article.
Fairly significant rise in heart disease, Alzheimer's and diabetes - although I would note that all of those do have a rising trend before that. Some falls in deaths from other things - notably other respiratory diseases which isn't a surprise, the new kid on the block with this sort of thing tends to dominate, but the bottom graph shows the real impact of Covid. Yes there is a slight increase if you ignore the Covid deaths but with them the increase is clear:

(https://i.ibb.co/mtgwGSB/USDeaths2020.jpg)

That's a lot of motorcycle crashes...

Quote
Covid has a 99.7% survival rate

No it doesn't. I can't see your source for some reason but I found this one:

https://fsph.iupui.edu/news-events/news/death-rate-covid-statewide-study.html

Quote
Using the non-institutionalized population, researchers determined the overall IFR for Indiana to be 0.26%.

So basically they took out all the people in care homes to get that figure. So yes, you take out all the old people who are already ill then the chances of survival are pretty good.
But that's a pretty dishonest way of calculating the fatality rate, you have to consider everyone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 03:44:52 PM
Totally preventable with a vaccine
Written as if that could actually be known.

Speaks volumes as to the level of education they provide in australia.

Evidently as non-existent as the continent itself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 03:49:53 PM
You don't even want try to answer? Telling.
Yes, I agree it is telling.

It tells of my further progress made in avoiding your low-quality trolling efforts here on this forum.

If you have an actual point, try expressing that rather than what you want to paint as hypocrisy on my part.

My position is not hypocritical and your position that you can discern hypocrisy in any form from anyone is shot to pieces with your last few posts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
Totally preventable with a vaccine
Written as if that could actually be known.

Here's the UK data. Note the clear correlation between Cases, Hospitalisations and Deaths over the winter and the much weaker correlation now. There is still some correlation, but the numbers are significantly lower:

(https://i.ibb.co/34MdLdb/Covid-Data-Sep2021.jpg)

I'm sure the vaccination data at the bottom which coincides with those much lower numbers is just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 04:59:28 PM
Totally preventable with a vaccine
Written as if that could actually be known.

Here's the UK data. Note the clear correlation between Cases, Hospitalisations and Deaths over the winter and the much weaker correlation now. There is still some correlation, but the numbers are significantly lower:

(https://i.ibb.co/34MdLdb/Covid-Data-Sep2021.jpg)

I'm sure the vaccination data at the bottom which coincides with those much lower numbers is just a coincidence.
Yeah, I am sure natural immunity has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2021, 05:16:52 PM
In the Covid deaths there are an average of four comorbidities, with only 5% of deaths indicated as Covid as the only cause according to the CDC

Well, of course. These sorts of diseases rarely kill young, healthy people. That has nothing to do with anything.
During a regular flu season the people who die aren't generally young and fit, they're people who are already old and vulnerable.

There wasn't a worldwide lockdown for the flu. Since you are likening Covid to that it looks like you have debunked and discredited yourself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 05:25:26 PM
There wasn't a worldwide lockdown for the flu.
No, because the CFR is significantly lower for the flu than it is Covid.

Quote
Since you are comparing Covid to that
I am not. Or only in as much as patiently explaining that there are other diseases which generally don’t kill young and healthy people but can be dangerous for old and ill people. Flu and Covid are similar in that regard, but the CFR for Covid is significantly higher in all age groups which is why it caused such an extreme worldwide response.

Quote
it looks like you have debunked and discredited yourself.
Your inability to deal with the data and points I have made is noted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 05:27:16 PM
Yeah, I am sure natural immunity has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Given that the vast majority of the people now ending up in hospital or dying are the unvaccinated then you are correct, natural immunity has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2021, 05:35:16 PM
AATW: Yeah guys Covid is just like this <almost harmless disease that only kills sick people>, we need to be super afraid of it!

::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 05:46:36 PM
Yeah, I am sure natural immunity has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Given that the vast majority of the people now ending up in hospital or dying are the unvaccinated then you are correct, natural immunity has nothing to do with it.
Oh, really.

Seems Israel is just a fluke, uh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 05:48:26 PM
AATW has the largest supply of equivocation, regardless of the issue.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 05:55:05 PM
Anyone who thinks they can vaccinate humanity out of a pandemic is a total idiot.

Everyone wants to point to polio or smallpox as tremendous examples of how vaccination works.

Never mind the tremendous leaps forward in areas of personal hygiene and overall sanitation.

Most of the lot here = totally disingenuous, morally bankrupt, intellectually and philosophically inconsistent positions on most every subject.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 06:08:03 PM
Hmm. Yes, I think it’s probably best not to feed Troll and Troller. But for all their attempts to divert, the data I’ve presented on the impact of Covid is pretty clear. As is the cherry picking dishonesty required to arrive at the “99.7%” survival rate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 06:15:04 PM
Yeah, I am sure natural immunity has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Given that the vast majority of the people now ending up in hospital or dying are the unvaccinated then you are correct, natural immunity has nothing to do with it.
Oh, really.

Seems Israel is just a fluke, uh.

No, it’s not a fluke. The numbers are getting high there and it took me two minutes to find some data which may indicate why:

Quote
The share of the population having received one dose increased from 50% in February to only 68% in September. Children aged 12-15 have been included in the rollout since June 2021, yet despite this, currently only 62% of the population have had two doses.

https://theconversation.com/israel-was-a-leader-in-the-covid-vaccination-race-so-why-are-cases-spiralling-there-166945

So yeah, they started off well with their vaccine rollout but it tailed off and they still have a lot of unvaccinated people.
So what’s your point?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 07:14:12 PM
Hmm. Yes, I think it’s probably best not to feed Troll and Troller. But for all their attempts to divert, the data I’ve presented on the impact of Covid is pretty clear. As is the cherry picking dishonesty required to arrive at the “99.7%” survival rate.
There is no cherry picking involved.

The survival rate is what it is.
Yeah, I am sure natural immunity has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Given that the vast majority of the people now ending up in hospital or dying are the unvaccinated then you are correct, natural immunity has nothing to do with it.
Oh, really.

Seems Israel is just a fluke, uh.

No, it’s not a fluke. The numbers are getting high there and it took me two minutes to find some data which may indicate why:

Quote
The share of the population having received one dose increased from 50% in February to only 68% in September. Children aged 12-15 have been included in the rollout since June 2021, yet despite this, currently only 62% of the population have had two doses.

https://theconversation.com/israel-was-a-leader-in-the-covid-vaccination-race-so-why-are-cases-spiralling-there-166945

So yeah, they started off well with their vaccine rollout but it tailed off and they still have a lot of unvaccinated people.
So what’s your point?
The vaccine tailed off, uh?

Doesn't work, uh?

Totally confident the reported MSM numbers are completely accurate, despite the proven lies associated with the plandemic.

Society cannot be vaccinated out of a pandeic
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2021, 07:15:43 PM
Hmm. Yes, I think it’s probably best not to feed Troll and Troller. But for all their attempts to divert, the data I’ve presented on the impact of Covid is pretty clear. As is the cherry picking dishonesty required to arrive at the “99.7%” survival rate.

Incorrect. You are the one cherry picking, by telling us that we need to only look at the survival rate for the critically ill. Not everyone is very ill. The survival rate is very high for the general population. The people dying of this are the sick and feeble. From your own source:

https://fsph.iupui.edu/news-events/news/death-rate-covid-statewide-study.html

Quote
Nursing home residents represented 54.9% of Indiana’s deaths at this date.

Using the non-institutionalized population, researchers determined the overall IFR for Indiana to be 0.26%.

The IFR for Hoosiers who are 12 to 40 years old is 0.01% (children under 12 were not included in the study). That rate increases to 0.12% for those who are 40 to 59 years old.

IFR = Infection Fatality Rate

0.26% IFR = 99.74 survival rate for non-institutionalized
0.01% IFR = 99.99 survival rate for ages 12 to 40
0.12% IFR = 99.88 survival rate for ages 40 to 59

Arguing that the sick people and old people are people too and so we should all vaxx up with vaccines that have no long term safety data just seems like disingenuousness on your part, and probably a bit of vaccine regret there. Those people who are dying are also susceptible to die of plenty of other almost harmless diseases that we don't have worldwide lockdowns over, including the primary ailments they are sick with. Sick and old people die. That's how life works. Stop being a priss about it. The level of justification is very weak.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 16, 2021, 08:06:35 PM
Hmm. Yes, I think it’s probably best not to feed Troll and Troller. But for all their attempts to divert, the data I’ve presented on the impact of Covid is pretty clear. As is the cherry picking dishonesty required to arrive at the “99.7%” survival rate.

Incorrect. You are the one cherry picking, by telling us that we need to only look at the survival rate for the critically ill. Not everyone is very ill. The survival rate is very high for the general population. The people dying of this are the sick and feeble. From your own source:

https://fsph.iupui.edu/news-events/news/death-rate-covid-statewide-study.html

Quote
Nursing home residents represented 54.9% of Indiana’s deaths at this date.

Using the non-institutionalized population, researchers determined the overall IFR for Indiana to be 0.26%.

The IFR for Hoosiers who are 12 to 40 years old is 0.01% (children under 12 were not included in the study). That rate increases to 0.12% for those who are 40 to 59 years old.

IFR = Infection Fatality Rate

0.26% IFR = 99.74 survival rate for non-institutionalized
0.01% IFR = 99.99 survival rate for ages 12 to 40
0.12% IFR = 99.88 survival rate for ages 40 to 59

Seems odd that you say someone is cherry-picking when you suspiciously left this out from your link:

"The study found that age, more than race or sex, determines how deadly the virus is.  People over 60 years of age had an IFR almost 2%, or 1 death for every 50 people who get infected. This IFR is approximately 2.5 times deadlier than seasonal flu for the same population."

So to add to your list:

2% IFR = 98% survival rate for ages 60 and over

That's a lot higher than 0.26%, 0.01&, & 0.12%

Why did you leave out the over 60 group from your IFR list above?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2021, 08:09:27 PM
People over 60 are more likely to have chronic comorbidities. 2% of them are sick enough to be susceptible to this. Not too surprising. As you pass 60 your life expectancy goes down. Talk to some older people about their friends dying in their advancing age.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr47/nvs47_28.pdf

See "Figure 3. Percent surviving by age: Death-registration States, 1900–1902 and United States, 1949–51 and 1997" -

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Life_expectancy_by_age_in_1900%2C_1950%2C_and_1997_United_States.Jpg/800px-Life_expectancy_by_age_in_1900%2C_1950%2C_and_1997_United_States.Jpg)

Pretty big drop there between ages 60 and 90, as compared to ages 0 to 30 or from ages 30 to 60.

The fact remains that this is a disease that affects sick people.

Again, an incredibly weak argument. The people pushing this are either stupid or evil. No grey area.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 08:36:06 PM
There is no cherry picking involved.

The survival rate is what it is.
Yes. And it isn’t 99.7%.
That figure came from data which excludes the most vulnerable people.
The overall CFR is around 1%

Quote
The vaccine tailed off, uh?

Doesn't work, uh?
So two things here. The “it” in my sentence was clearly referring to the rollout of the vaccine, not the vaccine itself.
What does “the vaccine tailed off” even mean?
And secondly there is some indication that the efficacy of the vaccine does decrease over time, hence the talk of booster jabs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 16, 2021, 08:48:33 PM
You are the one cherry picking, by telling us that we need to only look at the survival rate for the critically ill.
Are you just gaslighting me now?
I literally said above:

Quote
you take out all the old people who are already ill then the chances of survival are pretty good.
But that's a pretty dishonest way of calculating the fatality rate, you have to consider everyone.

I don’t see how I could have been any clearer.

Quote
Not everyone is very ill. The survival rate is very high for the general population. The people dying of this are the sick and feeble.
So…basically, fuck old and ill people, right?

I’ve shown the data which demonstrates that this was a situation which demanded a response. Whether the response has been correct is a different discussion.
And of course deaths is a pretty blunt metric. There’s also people who might not die but are taking up hospital beds and people with long Covid.

Your indifference towards people you regard as unimportant is pretty shocking.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 16, 2021, 09:34:21 PM
Okay, so after over four weeks, the last sickened anti-vaxxer is returning to work at our  West Coast facility. He was a big strong tough guy but now he's weak and gets winded easily. The brain fog has changed his personality and now he's a veg. The absolute sad fact is that after all of this, he is still reposting anti-vax anti-mask bullshit posted by vaccinated Republicans.

He doesn't care that he consumed almost $100,000 worth of medical resources that we will all have to pay for through insurance premiums.
He doesn't care that everybody else had to bust their ass covering for him while he was unconscious in a hospital.
He doesn't care that his wife and child were hospitalized for the same thing at the same time.

If anyone at work tries to talk to him about getting vaccinated, he starts to say that this is a hostile work environment for people who are not vaccinated.

This man could not breathe and had to go to the hospital where he got worse and remained unconscious while teams of people had to keep him alive. They literally saved his life and now he's still going on about what a sham medical science is and how horse dewormer is a real treatment.

This is a good guy who worked for this company since the beginning. But how am I supposed to feel about all this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 16, 2021, 09:40:03 PM
Okay, so after over four weeks, the last sickened anti-vaxxer is returning to work at our  West Coast facility. He was a big strong tough guy but now he's weak and gets winded easily. The brain fog has changed his personality and now he's a veg. The absolute sad fact is that after all of this, he is still reposting anti-vax anti-mask bullshit posted by vaccinated Republicans.

He doesn't care that he consumed almost $100,000 worth of medical resources that we will all have to pay for through insurance premiums.
He doesn't care that everybody else had to bust their ass covering for him while he was unconscious in a hospital.
He doesn't care that his wife and child were hospitalized for the same thing at the same time.

If anyone at work tries to talk to him about getting vaccinated, he starts to say that this is a hostile work environment for people who are not vaccinated.

This man could not breathe and had to go to the hospital where he got worse and remained unconscious while teams of people had to keep him alive. They literally saved his life and now he's still going on about what a sham medical science is and how horse dewormer is a real treatment.

This is a good guy who worked for this company since the beginning. But how am I supposed to feel about all this?

He's brainwashed.
Feel pity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 16, 2021, 09:44:04 PM
Survivors of Covid may have a many fold increase of cancer, heart attacks or stroke due to the amount of damage and internal scarring it leaves in its wake. Some people have lost their sense of smell or taste has changed perhaps permanently. Many will never have the same level of fitness again

Saying that the chances of surviving covid are good so no need to worry is stupid. I'm sure I'd likely survive covid if I got it but I sure as hell don't want it.

You talk about there is 'no long term data' on a vaccine. Well covid is a novel disease - there is no long term data about how it may affect people later. Keep in mind there isn't really a vaccine that has passed all the clinical trials and had some major fail after 6 weeks. Why would the covid vaccine be any different?

America will make a great case study. So much of the population got ravished with covid. It will be interesting to see if you guys have an unusual spike in cancers, heart disease, or any other weird disease to befall you.

As sure as Tom gets a cold, he will get covid. Given his age, it's likely we'll get the chance to laugh at his comeuppance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 16, 2021, 09:53:13 PM
He's brainwashed.
Feel pity.

I would feel no pity or sympathy at all but this guy is a friend. Otherwise, I would say he got what he deserved and I would troll the living shit out of him.

We can see the right-wing being divided into the manipulators and the manipulated. If you want to know who is who, just look at who's vaccinated and who is unvaccinated while espousing anti-vax propaganda. The Republicans learned a great lesson from Vladimir Putin during the January 6th riots. Ignorant people are a powerful force that can be harnessed.

For me and my team, question is now becoming: do we hire any more anti-vaxxers?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 16, 2021, 10:12:16 PM
I know Tom loves to get his news from random social media memes or Cucker Tarlson but the claim that people who die in traffic accidents but tested positive for covid recently are being counted in the covid death toll is complete and utter BS

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/

If anything, the near 650K death toll is conservative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 10:15:04 PM
Okay...the last sickened anti-vaxxer is returning to work... now he's a veg.

He doesn't care that he consumed almost $100,000 worth of medical resources that we will all have to pay for through insurance premiums.
He doesn't care that everybody else had to bust their ass covering for him while he was unconscious in a hospital.
He doesn't care that his wife and child were hospitalized for the same thing at the same time.

If anyone at work tries to talk to him about getting vaccinated, he starts to say that this is a hostile work environment for people who are not vaccinated.

This is a good guy who worked for this company since the beginning. But how am I supposed to feel about all this?
It is hostile. Your company employs vegetables and we are to look to you for quality insight?

Humanity cannot vaccinate itself out of a pandemic, even if one actually exists.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 16, 2021, 10:17:10 PM
I know Tom loves to get his news from random social media memes or Cucker Tarlson but the claim that people who die in traffic accidents but tested positive for covid recently are being counted in the covid death toll is complete and utter BS

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/

If anything, the near 650K death toll is conservative.
Put the useless and lying fact checking sites in CN where that crap belongs.

Everyone here heard Dr. Birx.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 16, 2021, 10:35:28 PM
I know Tom loves to get his news from random social media memes or Cucker Tarlson but the claim that people who die in traffic accidents but tested positive for covid recently are being counted in the covid death toll is complete and utter BS

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/

If anything, the near 650K death toll is conservative.
Put the useless and lying fact checking sites in CN where that crap belongs.

Everyone here heard Dr. Birx.

There are rules for how death certificates and cause of death are issued. Your claim that a person who dies in a traffic accident or gunshot wound etc will have 'covid' as the cause of death simply because they returned a positive test earlier is demonstrably BS. Who gives a toss about Dr Birx? The rules are the same for the UK, Australia and every other developed country. If someone falls off their motorbike and gets decapitated no coroner will sign off saying he died because of covid lol

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics?:uri=aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics

An article from the UK specific to the question about traffic accidents and covid death reporting

You're account is just a troll and no one takes you seriously anyway. Thanks for the laugh when you act all serious with your memberating though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2021, 10:39:49 PM
Quote from: Shifter
I know Tom loves to get his news from random social media memes or Cucker Tarlson but the claim that people who die in traffic accidents but tested positive for covid recently are being counted in the covid death toll is complete and utter BS

Yet that's how Oregon Health Authority is reporting the deaths, and claim that they are following CDC guidance:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
According to the Oregon Health Authority (OHA), there is no difference when it comes to tracking and reporting COVID deaths. OHA spokesman Jonathan Modie explained in an email how the state determines what is counted as a COVID-19 death:

We consider COVID-19 deaths to be:

Deaths in which a patient hospitalized for any reason within 14 days of a positive COVID-19 test result dies in the hospital or within the 60 days following discharge.

Deaths in which COVID-19 is listed as a primary or contributing cause of death on a death certificate.

We count COVID-19 deaths this way because the virus can often have effects on an individual’s health that may complicate their recovery from other diseases and conditions, even injuries, and indirectly contribute to their death. Another reason is because OHA is using this data to track the spread of the disease, and to create actionable steps for stopping its spread.


So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

He added that the state follows the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidelines for reporting deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 16, 2021, 10:57:14 PM
Loved the way you cherry picked that article to suit a narrative you like to tell. Read the whole page, it says things differently when put all together in the proper context

Also read this one
https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/BIRTHDEATHCERTIFICATES/VITALSTATISTICS/DEATH/Pages/reporting-covid-deaths.aspx

I know you won't though. Your brain forbids you from seeking information that conflicts with your anti vaxxer indoctrinated BS

Just plod along until you get covid. Then come here and tell us it's BS first hand
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 16, 2021, 10:59:51 PM
Quote from: Shifter
I know Tom loves to get his news from random social media memes or Cucker Tarlson but the claim that people who die in traffic accidents but tested positive for covid recently are being counted in the covid death toll is complete and utter BS

Yet that's how Oregon Health Authority is reporting the deaths, and claim that they are following CDC guidance:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

The article is from a year ago. Do they still count covid deaths in the way described in the article?

As of 9/1/21, Oregon has had 3,538 deaths attributed to Covid in some manner since 3/2020. Is Oregon really a good example of anything considering we're talking about numbers nearing 700,000.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 01:26:53 AM
Quote from: Shifter
Loved the way you cherry picked that article to suit a narrative you like to tell.

Cherry picked? I posted a whole bunch of them from other areas and people saying the same thing. See the red bolded quote from Illinois Department of Public Health in the second quote here which spells it out for you:

Dr. Birx says the same:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

Quote
Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

At Tuesday's White House coronavirus press conference, task force member Dr. Deborah Birx said that while some countries are reporting coronavirus fatality numbers differently, in the U.S. you are counted as a victim of the pandemic if you die while testing positive for the virus, even if something else causes your death.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX: "So, I think in this country we've taken a very liberal approach to mortality. And I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn't testing in January and February that's a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem some countries are recording as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we are still recording it and we will I mean the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to market as COVID-19 infection the intent is right now that those if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

Illinois Department of Public Health said they count the same way:

https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

Quote
IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified

Still, the department's Director, Dr. Ngozi Ezike used part of her time during Sunday's health briefing to explain how the department determines if a death is related to Coronavirus.

Essentially, Dr. Ezike explained that anyone who passes away after testing positive for the virus is included in that category.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

She reiterated Illinois health officials will continue to work vigorously to protect the state's most vulnerable populations.

Lots of quotes and examples here:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated

Quote
“I think a lot of clinicians are putting that condition (COVID-19) on death certificates when it might not be accurate because they died with coronavirus and not of coronavirus,” Macomb County, Mich., Chief Medical Examiner Daniel Spitz in an interview with the Ann Arbor News last month.

...

Colorado counted a man who a county coroner said died of acute alcohol poisoning as a COVID-19 death.

Montezuma County Coroner George Deavers told the Durango Herald the man’s blood-alcohol level was 0.55, or almost seven times the legal driving limit of 0.08 in Colorado. A BAC of 0.3 is considered lethal.

“COVID was not listed on the death certificate as the cause of death,” Deavers said, the paper reported Wednesday. “I disagree with the state for listing it as a COVID death, and will be discussing it with them this week.”

...

News reports have identified the man as Sebastian Yellow, 35, and reported that he was found dead by police May 4.

The Montezuma County Public Health Department also was refusing to report Yellow's death as a COVID-19 death. “The state is reporting that death as a COVID death, but our health department wanted to let people know that even though the person did have the virus, they did not die from it,” the agency said.

In response to a request for comment about Yellow’s death, the Colorado Department of Health told KCNC-TV that it classifies a death as confirmed when there is a positive SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) laboratory test.


...

Last month, the same agency reclassified three deaths at a Centennial nursing home as COVID-19 deaths, challenging the findings of attending physicians who ruled the deaths were unrelated to the virus.

The deaths occurred at Someren Glen, where four other residents died of COVID-19. The state has now recorded all seven deaths as COVID-19 deaths.

“We have never seen a situation where the health department overrules a physician’s findings,” Tim Rogers, the facility’s executive director, told KCNC. “However, these are unprecedented times and the health department official did not share their motivation for changing physician’s orders.”

A health department spokesman told the station of those deaths that the agency was following CDC guidance.

Yeah, super scientific stuff here. The Illinois Department of Public Health says that "even if you died from a clear alternative cause" they will count you as a Covid death. An in-your-face statement that tells you that you're wrong on this.
 
Diabetes death:

https://www.summitdaily.com/news/covid-19-was-not-the-primary-cause-of-death-for-silverthorne-man/

Quote
On April 11, Summit County announced the death of a Silverthorne man in his 60s, who tested positive for the novel coronavirus after his death. On Friday, Summit County Coroner Regan Wood said the man had undiagnosed diabetes and suffered a diabetic ketoacidosis event that resulted in his death. The man also had coronary artery disease, which is related to the diabetes.

While the new coronavirus was not the primary cause of death, it is being listed as a “significant other condition” at the time of death, according to Wood. Because of that, the man still will be counted among the state’s COVID-19 deaths.

They're even doing it to children:

https://www.golocalprov.com/news/3-children-with-covid-have-now-died-in-ri-state-has-3rd-highest-rate-in-u.s

(https://i.imgur.com/NLUaTXI.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 02:16:23 AM
Colorado:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2020/12/17/in-colorado-theyre-counting-gun-shot-fatalities-as-covid-deaths-n2581730

Quote
"The coroner, Brenda Bock, says two of their five deaths related to COVID-19 were people who died of gunshot wounds," CBS News Denver reports. "Bock says because they tested positive for COVID-19 within the past 30 days, they were classified as 'deaths among cases.'"

Minnesota:

https://www.lexingtonchronicle.com/news/how-accurate-are-covid-death-reports

Quote
Minnesota Rep. Mary Franson and Sen. Scott Jensen believe the covid death count was inflated. They said they found covid blamed for deaths from falls, a drowning, dementia, stroke and multi-organ failure. Rep. Franson said a man ejected in a car accident was “counted as a covid death” because the virus was in his system.

Florida; a non-hypothetical motorcycle accident counted as a Covid death this time:

https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report

Quote
ORLANDO, Fla. (CBS12) — A man who died in a motorcycle crash was counted as a COVID-19 death in Florida, according to a new report from FOX 35 Orlando.

According to the report, Orange County Health Officer Dr. Raul Pino was asked whether two coronavirus victims in their 20s had any underlying medical conditions that could have potentially made them more susceptible to the virus.

Pino's answer was that one of the two people who was listed as a COVID death actually died in a motorcycle crash. Despite health officials knowing the man died in a motorcycle crash, it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state.

Dr. Pino tells FOX 35 that one "could actually argue that it could have been the COVID-19 that caused him to crash."

lol
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 17, 2021, 02:59:36 AM
Florida; a non-hypothetical motorcycle accident counted as a Covid death this time:

Update on your motorcycle case, not to mention over a year old, a scant 4 months into the pandemic:

During a press conference July 20, DeSantis pointed to the case of the motorcyclist, saying:

The other thing I’ve asked the Department of Health to look at is there was a case here in Central Florida where somebody, I think they were in their twenties, and they were in a motorcycle accident, and that was counted as a coronavirus death. And a lot of people are like, “How is that possible? You get hit by a car and then you’re attributing it to coronavirus?” And so I want them to go back and look. I think though, the reason that’s the case is because what [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] has said is anybody that tests positive, if they then die, that’s a death amongst cases.

Contrary to what DeSantis stated, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance doesn’t direct caregivers to list all deaths as COVID-19 deaths simply because the disease was detected in the decedent. Instead, it instructs caregivers to list various factors contributing to death in appropriate sections of death certificates. In other words, it does not state that anyone who suffers an unnatural death such as a traffic accident should be listed as a COVID-19-caused death if they also happen to test positive, even if the disease didn’t cause to their death.

It does appear to the case, however, that a motorcyclist who was killed in a traffic accident also tested positive for COVID-19, and was initially listed among Florida’s COVID-19-related deaths. But officials from the Florida Department of Health said that person has since been removed from the count.

The story about the motorcyclist was initially reported by WOFL, an Orlando-based TV news station, which learned the information in a phone conversation with Orange County Health Officer Dr. Raul Pino. In the July 17 article, WOFL reported:

A person who died in a motorcycle accident was added to Florida’s COVID-19 death count, according to a state health official.

FOX 35 News found this out after asking Orange County Health Officer Dr. Raul Pino whether two coronavirus victims who were in their 20s had any underlying conditions. One of his answers surprised us.

“The first one didn’t have any. He died in a motorcycle accident,” Pino said.

Dr. Pino was asked if the man’s data was removed.

“I don’t think so. I have to double-check,” Pino said. “We were arguing, discussing, or trying to argue with the state. Not because of the numbers — it’s 100…it doesn’t make any difference if it’s 99 — but the fact that the individual didn’t die from COVID-19…died in the crash. But you could actually argue that it could have been the COVID-19 that caused him to crash. I don’t know the conclusion of that one.”

WOFL updated the story two days later to indicate that the motorcyclist death had been removed from the COVID-19 death tally. Kent Donahue, a spokesman for Pino’s office, confirmed that to be the case in a phone interview with Snopes. We therefore list this claim as “Outdated.”


As of 9/1/21, Oregon has had 3,538 deaths attributed to Covid in some manner since 3/2020.
As of 9/1/21, Florida has had 50,811 deaths attributed to Covid in some manner since 3/2020.

Florida removed the 2 motorcycle deaths from the count above a year ago.

So right now, as it stands, you've presented 2-5 deaths attributed to Covid that perhaps shouldn't have been counted out of 670,000. You're down to around 669,995 that are still counted.
You're on a roll, keep chipping away.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 03:08:56 AM
So it took news articles and national embarrassment to get them to remove it. It was only found out by the reporters because the victim was a special coronavirus victim in their 20's and the motorcycle crash was inadvertently mentioned to the reporters by a doctor, the Orange County Health Officer, who absurdly proceeded to defend it. I consider the action of backtracking on your lies to be irrelevant. I can see that you are pretty desperate though.

Health officials are clearly stating that they consider it to be a Covid death even if there is a clear alternate cause:

https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

Quote
IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified

Still, the department's Director, Dr. Ngozi Ezike used part of her time during Sunday's health briefing to explain how the department determines if a death is related to Coronavirus.

Essentially, Dr. Ezike explained that anyone who passes away after testing positive for the virus is included in that category.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

She reiterated Illinois health officials will continue to work vigorously to protect the state's most vulnerable populations.

The Illinois Department of Public Health says directly how it works. Not a coincidence that it's happening in multiple states and they are attributing it to CDC guidance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 17, 2021, 03:35:20 AM
So it took news articles and national embarrassment to get them to remove it. It was only found out by the reporters because the victim was a special coronavirus victim in their 20's and the motorcycle crash was inadvertnanly mentioned by a doctor, the Orange County Health Officer, who absurdly proceeded to defend it. I consider the action of backtracking on your lies to be irrelevant. I can see that you are pretty desperate though.

Health officials are clearly stating that they consider it to be a Covid death even if there is a clear alternate cause:

https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

Quote
IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified

Still, the department's Director, Dr. Ngozi Ezike used part of her time during Sunday's health briefing to explain how the department determines if a death is related to Coronavirus.

Essentially, Dr. Ezike explained that anyone who passes away after testing positive for the virus is included in that category.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

She reiterated Illinois health officials will continue to work vigorously to protect the state's most vulnerable populations.

The Illinois Department of Public Health says directly how it works. Not a coincidence that it's happening in multiple states and they are attributing it to CDC guidance.

Here's what she said in May of 2020:

There are also some additional deaths that happen in someone who happened to be COVID positive, but where the COVID infection had nothing to do with the deaths,” she said. “So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status.

“We are trying to make sure that things that aren’t related at all to the COVID diagnosis are removed, but if someone has another illness, like heart disease, and then had a stroke or other event, it’s not as easy to separate that and say COVID didn’t exacerbate that existing illness. That would not be removed from the count,” she added.

Above all else, Ezike said that the state is striving for as much accuracy as possible, presenting a true picture of what is going on statewide when reporting on the number of cases and fatalities related to the virus."

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/dr-ngozi-ezike-refutes-notion-that-illinois-is-over-counting-covid-19-deaths/2270810/

Timing and context is everything. We're going back more than a year. Remember way back in like April of 2020 we were just figuring out this thing was airborne? So much has happened in the past 18 months it's mind numbing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 03:44:31 AM
Did you even read your quote? She relented and wanted to cut out the gunshot victims and motor vehicle accidents but keep anything else slightly biological.

You stumble into the hospital extremely overweight, have stage 4 cancer, high cholesterol and a heart attack? Covid, obviously. You're an Illinois Covid victim. This is just more affirmation on what they're doing. The quote literally says that they aren't putting controls on it outside of the 'obvious' gunshot victims.

It doesn't matter if it was a year ago. If the statistics have been wrong for a year that's pretty bad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 17, 2021, 03:52:35 AM
Did you even read your quote? She relented wanted to cut out the gunshot victims and motor vehicle accidents but keep anything else slightly biological.

You stumble into the hospital extremely overweight, have stage 4 cancer and a heart attack? Covid, obviously. You're an Illinois Covid victim. This is just more affirmation on what they're doing. The quote literally says that they aren't putting controls on it outside of the 'obvious' gunshot victims.

It doesn't matter if it was a year ago. If the statistics have been wrong for a year that's pretty bad.

So let me get this straight. Let's flip the script and put this a different way. What's the preferred definition of dying of Covid that you would accept? What would you want to see on a death certificate that says, "Yep, died of Covid, let's count it."?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 05:03:27 AM
It's possible to figure out the primary cause of someone's death. They figured it out for these children:

https://www.golocalprov.com/news/3-children-with-covid-have-now-died-in-ri-state-has-3rd-highest-rate-in-u.s

(https://i.imgur.com/NLUaTXI.png)

If Covid is not the primary cause of death, why list it and publicize it as a Covid death and put it in State records as a Covid death and broadcast it all over the television in a Covid death segment other than for political or scare-tactic reasons? This is duplicitous, unethical behavior.

If they do want to collect secondary conditions they could just be honest about it and break it down instead of presenting it as "Covid Deaths". Presenting it as "Covid Deaths" leads one to assume that it was the lethal primary cause of death. But seeing the statistics of people who died of Cancer with asymptomatic Covid isn't sensational enough for their dirty agenda.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 17, 2021, 06:36:39 AM
It's possible to figure out the primary cause of someone's death. They figured it out for these children:

https://www.golocalprov.com/news/3-children-with-covid-have-now-died-in-ri-state-has-3rd-highest-rate-in-u.s

(https://i.imgur.com/NLUaTXI.png)

If Covid is not the primary cause of death, why list it and publicize it as a Covid death and put it in State records as a Covid death and broadcast it all over the television in a Covid death segment other than for political or scare-tactic reasons? This is duplicitous, unethical behavior.

If they do want to collect secondary conditions they could just be honest about it and break it down instead of presenting it as "Covid Deaths". Presenting it as "Covid Deaths" leads one to assume that it was the lethal primary cause of death. But seeing the statistics of people who died of Cancer with asymptomatic Covid isn't sensational enough for their dirty agenda.

You have to look at this critically, which you are not. Example, I had a friend who died from sepsis, the primary cause of death. However, the sepsis was brought on by the fact that she had a cancerous colon tumor that perforated (ruptured, so to speak) and spread throughout her abdominal cavity. Which, in turn, caused her system to go septic. So the primary cause of death on the death certificate was logged as "sepsis". That's what killed her. But her perforated colon tumor is what caused the sepsis, the contributing factor. She wouldn't have died from sepsis if her cancerous tumor hadn't existed and did what it did. She is logged, statistically, as a "cancer death".

From the CDC (Their bolding):

Cause of Death and COVID-19
When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death on the death certificate, it is coded and counted as a death due to COVID-19.
COVID-19 should not be reported on the death certificate if it did not cause or contribute to the death.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/cause-of-death-data-quality.pdf

So your point is understood. But the point is, would these kids, in your RI example, not have died if they didn't have Covid? That's what really matters.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 07:01:47 AM
That's an easy one. The person died of the mechanism of sepsis, but died of a disease called cancer. Two different things. No one is confusing "sepsis deaths" as the disease they died from.

In the case of people with multiple diseases, it's usually clear that they died of one thing as the primary disease of death. If another disease may or may not have been contributing, and it's vague, obviously just note it down for further research and don't make that data part of a sensational article claiming a pandemic of epic proportions and scream for worldwide economic shutdowns.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 17, 2021, 08:27:57 AM
That's an easy one. The person died of the mechanism of sepsis, but died of a disease called cancer. Two different things. No one is confusing "sepsis deaths" as the disease they died from.

In the case of people with multiple diseases, it's usually clear that they died of one thing as the primary disease of death. If another disease may or may not have been contributing, and it's vague, obviously just note it down for further research and don't make that data part of a sensational article claiming a pandemic of epic proportions and scream for worldwide economic shutdowns.

You're still missing the point: Would these kids, in your RI example, not have died if they didn't have Covid?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2021, 09:09:55 AM
Don't bother.  I already tried explaining this to Tom.

Casue of death: the thing which directly killed you. Ex: blood loss, ruptured lung, heart failure.
Contributing factors: The thing which caused the cause of death.  Ex: Stab wound to the abdomen, gunshot to the chest, arterial blockage from fatty buildup.

This is how death certificates are written.  And since contributing factors are what we want to know rather than the very specific mechanical failire, thats the statistic.  If someone has a weak heart, you don't write "heart faulure due to weak heart" because the question is then asked "what caused the weak heart to stop?" And the answer could be "over exhertion".  So they died from over exhertion due to a weak heart. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2021, 09:29:20 AM
You're still missing the point: Would these kids, in your RI example, not have died if they didn't have Covid?

It would certainly need to be demonstrated explicitly that Covid contributed to their disease, as many cases of Covid are asymptomatic. If it's "fuzzy" or "unclear" and "maybe" is involved then it means you don't have the evidence to stroke fears to support your pandemic among the sickly and should probably just refrain from screaming fear to the media and focus on the research.

We have a pandemic where people are "maybe" dying of the disease.  ::)

Considerong the high level of comorbidities in the deaths it's obvious that you can't show that this disease is really that dangerous on its own and need to pull in other diseases to help you, in a manufactured argument of possible contributions to unrelated diseases. Is this how Polio and the Bubonic Plague worked?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 17, 2021, 10:22:14 AM
You're still missing the point: Would these kids, in your RI example, not have died if they didn't have Covid?

It would certainly need to be demonstrated explicitly that Covid contributed to their disease, as many cases of Covid are asymptomatic. If it's "fuzzy" or "unclear" and "maybe" is involved then it means you don't have the evidence to stroke fears to support your pandemic among the sickly and should probably just refrain from screaming fear to the media and focus on the research.

We have a pandemic where people are "maybe" dying of the disease.  ::)

Considerong the high level of comorbidities in the deaths it's obvious that you can't show that this disease is really that dangerous on its own and need to pull in other diseases to help you, in a manufactured argument of possible contributions to unrelated diseases. Is this how Polio and the Bubonic Plague worked?

How many people currently have co morbidities in America? Many millions. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc. People with these afflictions that get covid and die in short order? Covid could well be a contributing factor in their early death. If you have a bad heart but take care of yourself, you can live for years. But if some anti masking covid infected muppet coughs at you, that could be the death blow as it pushes you over the edge

Lets hope someone like that crosses your path. Karma needs to give you a swift kick up the arse
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on September 17, 2021, 10:58:43 AM
He’s almost certainly vaccinated. He’s a descipable grifter, but he’s not an idiot.

Why are you slandering Mr. Carlson?  He's the only one with the courage to find this man in Trinidad with giant balls to clear Nicki Minaj's good name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPlqLHcphyw
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2021, 11:24:37 AM
He’s almost certainly vaccinated. He’s a descipable grifter, but he’s not an idiot.

Why are you slandering Mr. Carlson?  He's the only one with the courage to find this man in Trinidad with giant balls to clear Nicki Minaj's good name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPlqLHcphyw

The hero we need.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 17, 2021, 11:46:00 AM
How many people currently have co morbidities in America? Many millions. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc. People with these afflictions that get covid and die in short order? Covid could well be a contributing factor in their early death. If you have a bad heart but take care of yourself, you can live for years. But if some anti masking covid infected muppet coughs at you, that could be the death blow as it pushes you over the edge

Lets hope someone like that crosses your path. Karma needs to give you a swift kick up the arse
Tom's distain for the old and ill is somewhat disturbing.
Is this what Republicans are generally like?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2021, 01:18:59 PM
How many people currently have co morbidities in America? Many millions. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc. People with these afflictions that get covid and die in short order? Covid could well be a contributing factor in their early death. If you have a bad heart but take care of yourself, you can live for years. But if some anti masking covid infected muppet coughs at you, that could be the death blow as it pushes you over the edge

Lets hope someone like that crosses your path. Karma needs to give you a swift kick up the arse
Tom's distain for the old and ill is somewhat disturbing.
Is this what Republicans are generally like?

The only people Republicans hate more than liberals is themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on September 17, 2021, 01:58:02 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop
okay libs, so you're saying AIDS is a deadly disease, yet all these so-called AIDS deaths list pneumonia as the primary cause of death?????????? wow doctors must all be liars and HIV is harmless.

how do you not understand how primary/secondary causes of death work
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 17, 2021, 02:11:41 PM
Tom doesn't understand how anything works. Does he not even know what the acronym to AIDS is? Holy s&@t...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2021, 02:23:28 PM
Who is going to tell Tom that a gun shot wouldn’t be listed as the primary cause of death if someone gets shot through the heart?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 17, 2021, 03:05:33 PM
Who is going to tell Tom that a gun shot wouldn’t be listed as the primary cause of death if someone gets shot through the heart?
Probably the same people who would count it as a gunshot death when offering up their feeble rhetoric concerning "WE NEED TO CONTROL YOUR GUNS!"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on September 17, 2021, 03:07:43 PM
Who is going to tell Tom that a gun shot wouldn’t be listed as the primary cause of death if someone gets shot through the heart?
Probably the same people who would count it as a gunshot death when offering up their feeble rhetoric concerning "WE NEED TO CONTROL YOUR GUNS!"
, he said, unironically.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2021, 03:08:08 PM
Who is going to tell Tom that a gun shot wouldn’t be listed as the primary cause of death if someone gets shot through the heart?
Probably the same people who would count it as a gunshot death when offering up their feeble rhetoric concerning "WE NEED TO CONTROL YOUR GUNS!"
So... Doctors?
I mean, it is a gunshot death, but the bullet wasn't the cause of death, just the contributing factor.
Kinda like suffocation would be the primary cause of death if I strangle you while strangulation would be the contributing factor and it would be considered a murder.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2021, 03:23:43 PM
I see you haven’t been able to ignore me. I’m flattered.

Who is going to tell Tom that a gun shot wouldn’t be listed as the primary cause of death if someone gets shot through the heart?
Probably the same people who would count it as a gunshot death when offering up their feeble rhetoric concerning "WE NEED TO CONTROL YOUR GUNS!"

It is a gunshot death. This is how it works. The bullet or disease causes damage to the body which leads to a loss of function so severe it can not continue to live.

An anvil dropping on the head? Cause of death would be bone fractures and organ damage, not “anvil on head”.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 17, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Tom doesn't understand how anything works. Does he not even know what the acronym to AIDS is? Holy s&@t...

Of course he does. He just doesn't always think through the shit he's spewing while he's trolling. It makes for some humorous faux pas' from time to time, like that time he asserted that if a physicist says something it must be true after over a decade of nothing but attempts to discredit everything every physicist has ever said regarding the shape of the Earth.

But I guess you guys just enjoy the banter or something, who knows what motivates y'all to keep feeding such an obvious troll?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2021, 05:10:52 PM
Tom doesn't understand how anything works. Does he not even know what the acronym to AIDS is? Holy s&@t...

Of course he does. He just doesn't always think through the shit he's spewing while he's trolling. It makes for some humorous faux pas' from time to time, like that time he asserted that if a physicist says something it must be true after over a decade of nothing but attempts to discredit everything every physicist has ever said regarding the shape of the Earth.

But I guess you guys just enjoy the banter or something, who knows what motivates y'all to keep feeding such an obvious troll?

The forum would probably die if we stopped feeding all the trolls.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2021, 05:39:56 PM
irc is killing the forum
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on September 17, 2021, 05:56:34 PM
Tom, are you vaccinated?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2021, 05:13:16 AM
Tom, are you vaccinated?

He takes Hydroxychloroquine and Vitamin C, D, and Zinc.
Why would he need vaccination?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 18, 2021, 05:33:37 AM
Does anyone here actively worry about whether or not another person is vaccinated against measles or the flu?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2021, 08:04:38 AM
Does anyone here actively worry about whether or not another person is vaccinated against measles or the flu?

Flu, no.
Measles, yes...now.  thanks for putting that shit in my head and making me remember the case in texas...


https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/first-measles-case-2-decades-reported-austin-texas-n1106636

https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/IDCU/disease/measles/Measles-2019.aspx
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2021, 08:25:57 AM
From NPR News
3 Tourists Allegedly Attacked A Hostess Who Asked For Vaccine Proof At A Restaurant https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/17/1038392877/new-york-tourists-attack-hostess-restaurant-vaccine?sc=18&f=1001

Basically 3 Texas women got asked for proof of vaccination at a restaurant in New York City.
They got mad and proceeded to beat the hostess doing her job.

Guessing they're Anti-Vaxxers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 19, 2021, 10:01:54 AM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 19, 2021, 10:21:29 AM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 19, 2021, 10:35:29 AM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
I believe that is a question you can answer for yourself, okay troll bait?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 19, 2021, 10:55:12 AM
Imagine getting medical advice from a dictionary instead of a doctor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 19, 2021, 11:01:21 AM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
I believe that is a question you can answer for yourself, okay troll bait?
Then the answe is: none of it. The above definition matches the current vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 19, 2021, 01:59:50 PM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
I believe that is a question you can answer for yourself, okay troll bait?
Then the answe is: none of it. The above definition matches the current vaccines.
A demonstration of your lack of understanding is not helpful to you in any form or fashion.
No immunity for one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 19, 2021, 02:27:35 PM
Not understanding that 100% immunity is impossible is a bigger problem. Literally no vaccine is 100% effective, but high vaccination rates combined with the high effectiveness of a vaccine can virtually eliminate a disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 19, 2021, 07:27:28 PM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
I believe that is a question you can answer for yourself, okay troll bait?
Then the answe is: none of it. The above definition matches the current vaccines.
A demonstration of your lack of understanding is not helpful to you in any form or fashion.
No immunity for one.
Is it because I'm not completely, 100% immune to the virus?  Because I don't know any vaccine that does that.  I mean, no matter what you have, a mesels virus can get into your body.  Your body will then destroy it very quickly, but it'll still infect you.  Thus, unless the vaccine alters your body so a virus is incapable of entering your body, you can't be immune in that manner.  Just... immune in the "I won't get sick" part if the virus has a longer gestation period.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 19, 2021, 08:46:32 PM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
I believe that is a question you can answer for yourself, okay troll bait?
Then the answe is: none of it. The above definition matches the current vaccines.
A demonstration of your lack of understanding is not helpful to you in any form or fashion.
No immunity for one.
Is it because I'm not completely, 100% immune to the virus?  Because I don't know any vaccine that does that.  I mean, no matter what you have, a mesels virus can get into your body.  Your body will then destroy it very quickly, but it'll still infect you.  Thus, unless the vaccine alters your body so a virus is incapable of entering your body, you can't be immune in that manner.  Just... immune in the "I won't get sick" part if the virus has a longer gestation period.
Oh, I see.

You don't like the process of defining words.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 19, 2021, 09:39:40 PM
'covid test' is actually wrong. When people who are vaccinated against covid test 'positive', they don't have covid. They test positive to the presence of SARS Cov-2 virus.They really should be called SARS Cov-2 tests

Covid is the disease that the SARS Cov-2 virus gives you

The vaccine works and does its job as expected. People come into contact with the virus (evidenced by the positive test result) and almost all of them do not go on to develop the disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 20, 2021, 05:24:09 AM
Definition of vaccine - a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
As soon as one is available, I can deal with it.

Ok, troll bait:
What part of the above definition is not part of the currently available vaccines?
I believe that is a question you can answer for yourself, okay troll bait?
Then the answe is: none of it. The above definition matches the current vaccines.
A demonstration of your lack of understanding is not helpful to you in any form or fashion.
No immunity for one.
Is it because I'm not completely, 100% immune to the virus?  Because I don't know any vaccine that does that.  I mean, no matter what you have, a mesels virus can get into your body.  Your body will then destroy it very quickly, but it'll still infect you.  Thus, unless the vaccine alters your body so a virus is incapable of entering your body, you can't be immune in that manner.  Just... immune in the "I won't get sick" part if the virus has a longer gestation period.
Oh, I see.

You don't like the process of defining words.

Carry on.
Kettle.  Pot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 20, 2021, 10:04:59 AM
'covid test' is actually wrong. When people who are vaccinated against covid test 'positive', they don't have covid. They test positive to the presence of SARS Cov-2 virus.They really should be called SARS Cov-2 tests

Covid is the disease that the SARS Cov-2 virus gives you

The vaccine works and does its job as expected. People come into contact with the virus (evidenced by the positive test result) and almost all of them do not go on to develop the disease.
A vaccine prevents infection.

Almost doesn't cut the mustard.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 20, 2021, 10:26:23 AM
'covid test' is actually wrong. When people who are vaccinated against covid test 'positive', they don't have covid. They test positive to the presence of SARS Cov-2 virus.They really should be called SARS Cov-2 tests

Covid is the disease that the SARS Cov-2 virus gives you

The vaccine works and does its job as expected. People come into contact with the virus (evidenced by the positive test result) and almost all of them do not go on to develop the disease.
A vaccine prevents infection.

Almost doesn't cut the mustard.

Vaccines do not prevent all infections. They prevent most symptomatic and contagious infection. Asymptomatic infection is impossible to prevent.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 20, 2021, 03:21:06 PM
'covid test' is actually wrong. When people who are vaccinated against covid test 'positive', they don't have covid. They test positive to the presence of SARS Cov-2 virus.They really should be called SARS Cov-2 tests

Covid is the disease that the SARS Cov-2 virus gives you

The vaccine works and does its job as expected. People come into contact with the virus (evidenced by the positive test result) and almost all of them do not go on to develop the disease.
A vaccine prevents infection.

Almost doesn't cut the mustard.

Not everyone who gets the vaccine can mount an effective immune response. Diseases, drugs to suppress the immune system because you may have a transplanted organ, pregnancy or being old that your body just doesn't work like it used to are reasons

Also how you behave before/after your vaccine shot can affect its efficacy. Alcohol and sleep deprevation for example can reduce its effectiveness

So in the billions of people getting the vaccine, you can bet there will be some that fall into these cohorts

Are you really this dense you wouldn't know? Wow
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 20, 2021, 04:02:18 PM
If you can get the disease after the shot, then you are not being administered a vaccine.

Period.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 20, 2021, 04:24:40 PM
If you can get the disease after the shot, then you are not being administered a vaccine.

Period.
Then what would you call an injection that provides your body with a blueprint to fight a disease to ensure its full effects don't hit you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 20, 2021, 04:34:18 PM
Additional evidence that they have made special rules for counting Covid deaths, differing from how other diseases are counted.

From a former death certificate clerk:

https://americanmind.org/salvo/a-covid-death-the-bureaucracy-decides/

Quote
Inside America’s mortality misinformation crisis.

I’m a former death certificate clerk. I’ve spent nearly 7 years in the funeral home industry and processed thousands of death certificates. I’m appalled that death certificate data is codified for use as our national mortality statistics.

~

COVID Death Reporting

But there was a change made this past year. Not a data capture reform for all the erroneous death diagnoses, and not even a data capture reform to improve reporting for all the infections that significantly impact our health before death. The CDC’s National Vital Statistics System (NVSS) rolled out the data capture red carpet for one—and only one—disease-causing pathogen: SARS-CoV-2.

On March 24th, 2020, only 11 days after the first pandemic-related lockdown started, and well before widespread testing was available, the NVSS gave hand-holding guidance to the medical certifiers, local registrars, and mortality statistics coders on precisely how they ought to spotlight COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death on death certificates. They boldly declared that COVID should be the underlying cause on a death certificate “more often than not,” even without laboratory confirmation of infection.  When they created this COVID alert in March, and followed up by releasing this COVID death recording guidance a few days later, we couldn’t have possibly had enough country-specific statistics to justify such a drastic departure in coding COVID deaths, compared to how other infectious disease fatalities are recorded.

So the NVSS actually dictated a belief to the community of death certificate medical certifiers and vital records registrars—our cause-of-death approval gatekeepers—before having any reasonable disease surveillance infrastructure established to support their claim of probability of undiagnosed COVID being the cause of death, greatly amplifying the perception of COVID mortality. This may have been against federal law on data collection changes, as this peer-reviewed research paper suggests: “Federal agencies that make changes to how they collect, publish, and analyze data without alerting the Federal Register and OMB [Office of Management and Budget] as a result are in violation of federal law.”

Furthermore, their COVID-19 death certifying guidance changed longstanding death certification protocols when it declared: “…reporting ‘COVID–19’due to ‘chronic obstructive pulmonary disease’ in Part I would be an illogical sequence as COPD cannot cause an infection, although it may increase susceptibility to or exacerbate an infection. In this instance, COVID–19 would be reported in Part I as the UCOD [underlying cause of death] and the COPD in Part II [as the contributory factor].”

The UCOD on a death certificate is what’s reported and tallied in our national mortality statistics as the reason that the death occurred. It is found on the last line of Part 1 on a death certificate.  What needs to be provided for a death certificate is a logical sequence of conditions that explain why the death has occurred, not a logical sequence as to why an infection has occurred. So relegating an important chronic condition that logically explains why someone has died of an infection that most people survive is a drastic departure from previous cause-of-death guidance.

Previously, the pre-existing condition that made a patient susceptible to death from an infection (i.e., quadriplegia, stroke (cerebrovascular accident), HIV or cystic fibrosis) was subsequently tallied in our mortality statistics as the reason for the death. But the new COVID-19 guidance advises the exact opposite: medical certifiers are now to report the infection as the UCOD and tally it in our mortality statistics, while simultaneously demoting the underlying chronic condition (e.g., COPD) into a section of the death certificate that doesn’t impact mortality statistics and holds less sway in science, medicine, public health and law.

Reporting death in this way foregrounds short term COVID illness as the cause of death, instead of reporting the underlying chronic illness as we have done in the past. This is another way how COVID mortality is being artificially amplified over any other cause of death.

Finally, yet another biased standard of boosting COVID mortality specific to this year’s very odd death tallying was PCR testing for SARS-CoV-2 carriage performed after death, including on people whose cause of death was suicide or car accidents and obviously not COVID-related at all. Testing for pathogen carriage after accidental death would have never been performed  in the past. Similarly, any at-home deaths that used to be chalked up to “atherosclerotic heart disease” without any investigation were now presumed COVID deaths. And nursing home clusters of deaths in the elderly—which, by the way, I used to regularly witness multiple times a year in my capacity as a death recording clerk from 2013 to 2019—were now opportunities to swab the dead to contribute to the COVID death toll in 2020, even without evidence of symptoms in the deceased.

As I mentioned previously, deaths that occurred in nursing homes and under hospice care almost always were attributed to the chronic condition that explained their decline in health—regardless of what final infection they suffered from…until now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 20, 2021, 05:46:46 PM
The same misreporting has been occurring in Canada. What a coincidence.

(https://i.imgur.com/teQaNpd.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 20, 2021, 06:04:52 PM
Oh God, that Pete Evans quack

The same muppet that tried to flog off some machine that could among other miraculous feats, cure you of the corona virus for $15K lol

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-24/pete-evans-fined-25000-by-tga-over-coronavirus-biocharger-claims/12183050

Quote
Celebrity chef Pete Evans has been fined more than $25,000 by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) over claims he made about a product called a "BioCharger".
Key points:

    Evans said in a video: "It's programmed with a thousand different recipes and there's a couple in there for the Wuhan coronavirus."
    The TGA is focusing particularly on products claiming to treat coronavirus at the moment
    The product's page on Evans's website made it clear that it was purporting to be of therapeutic use

The "hybrid subtle energy revitalisation platform" came with a $14,990 price tag and claimed to "optimise and improve potential health, wellness and athletic performance" on Evans's website, but it appears to have been removed from the site.

The website claimed it replicates light, frequencies, harmonics, pulsed electromagnetic fields and voltage that are found in nature, for a variety of treatments.

It was brought to the attention of the TGA by a Facebook Live video that Evans posted on April 9, in which he said: "It's programmed with a thousand different recipes and there's a couple in there for the Wuhan coronavirus."


Dont worry Tom. Canada may amend their covid death count
https://www.cp24.com/news/covid-19-deaths-in-canada-may-be-two-times-higher-than-reported-study-1.5489622?cache=lbaijlxg
Quote
OTTAWA -- A new study suggests Canada has vastly underestimated how many people have died from COVID-19 and says the number could be two times higher than reported.

Dr. Tara Moriarty, working group lead for the study commissioned by the Royal Society of Canada, said in an interview while most accounts have put the majority of deaths in long-term care, the new data analysis suggests the toll of COVID-19 was also heavily felt outside the homes in the community.

Many of those deaths likely occurred in lower income, racialized communities and affected essential workers, new immigrants and people living in multigenerational homes, as well as clinically frail seniors living at home, the study says.

"If we'd had some sense early on of who was dying where, if we had had a sense of just how many deaths were actually occurring ... maybe people would have started looking sooner or listening sooner to people in communities who were saying, 'It's really really bad here, people are dying,"' Moriarty said.

"It might have provided support for those claims that might have caused some kind of action that would have saved lives."

Moriarty said seeing Canada out of step with similar high-income countries on the proportion of long-term care deaths was a red flag that inspired the analysis by the society.

The new peer-reviewed analysis casts doubt on the widely accepted assumption that 80 per cent of Canada's deaths due to COVID-19 occurred among older adult residents of long-term care homes.

Instead, it says at least two-thirds of deaths caused by COVID-19 in communities outside of long-term care may have been missed. That would put the proportion of deaths in long-term care at around 45 per cent, much closer to the average of 40 per cent reported by peer countries in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.

The conclusion is based on a review of reports of excess deaths across Canada, the pattern of COVID-19 fatalities during the pandemic and cremation data showing a significant spike in deaths at homes versus hospitals in 2020. It also relies on antibody surveillance testing that collectively unmasked the likely broad scope of undetected COVID-19 infections.

The researchers adjusted the data to account for things like increased deaths due to the drug toxicity crisis and the expected drop in deaths linked to the pandemic because of things like reduced traffic accident rates.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 20, 2021, 06:10:51 PM
Peter Evans didn't say they were reporting deaths that way. Toronto Public Health did.

Also, it's not the celebrity chef Peter Evans in the comments:

https://twitter.com/peteevans66?lang=en

(https://i.imgur.com/10lN01H.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 20, 2021, 06:14:55 PM
Peter Evans didn't say they were reporting deaths that way. Toronto Public Health did.

Also, it's not that Peter Evans:

(https://i.imgur.com/10lN01H.png)

LOL, I like how he makes a point of NOT being that loser aussie chef :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 20, 2021, 06:33:31 PM
More coincidences?

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/04/medical-experts-say-michigans-coronavirus-death-count-isnt-accurate-but-is-it-too-high-or-too-low.html

(https://i.imgur.com/aNuIoGR.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/7Jl2Omv.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/9gjxetp.png)


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 20, 2021, 06:44:16 PM
If you can get the disease after the shot, then you are not being administered a vaccine.

Period.

Cool, so you don't think vaccines exist at all.  Great.  So take the shot that makes you 95% effective at fighting off COVID.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 20, 2021, 06:47:10 PM
If you can get the disease after the shot, then you are not being administered a vaccine.

Period.
Then what would you call an injection that provides your body with a blueprint to fight a disease to ensure its full effects don't hit you?
A prophylactic, similar to ivermectin or even hydroxychloroquine in effectiveness when it comes to outcome-based treatment.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 20, 2021, 07:07:13 PM
If you can get the disease after the shot, then you are not being administered a vaccine.

Period.

So I guess according to you the measles vaccine isn't a vaccine?

"- One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.
- Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.
"
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html

Even Polio vaccines aren't 100%, damn close, but not 100%. Therefore, according to you, the Polio vaccine is not a vaccine?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 20, 2021, 07:54:07 PM
Nevada's current guidelines for Covid deaths as of July 12, 2021:

https://dpbh.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/dpbhnvgov/content/Programs/OPHIE/Docs/COVID-Death-Definition.pdf

Quote
Updates were made July 12, 2021

~

COVID-19 Death:
• Decedents with a positive PCR COVID-19 lab report (≤ 30 days from death or post-mortem)
• Decedents with a death certificate that lists a COVID-19-related term as a cause of death in Part I and have a
history of a positive PCR COVID-19 lab report
     •  COVID-related terms include names for COVID-19, such as SARS-CoV-2, coronavirus, coronavirus-19, etc.
• Decedents with a pending cause of death that had a positive PCR lab test within 30 days of death AND
symptoms indicative of COVID-19 (per investigation or medical report)
• Decedents with a death certificate that does not specifically list a COVID-19-related term that had a positive PCR
lab result ≤ 30 days before death and/or died within 30 days of COVID-19 symptom onset AND died in a manner
of death deemed to be ‘natural’ on the death certificate
• Exception: Deaths due to non-natural causes (e.g. accidental, intentional self-harm, homicide) should not be
counted as a COVID-19 death even if the deceased had a confirmatory positive lab test within 30 days of death

So anyone who was dying of end stage cancer, heart attack, end stage liver disease, etc, but who has had a positive Covid test in the past 30 days is counted as a Covid death.

Is there any justification for this? They have changed the way deaths are reported. This is not done for other diseases.

https://americanmind.org/salvo/a-covid-death-the-bureaucracy-decides/

(https://i.imgur.com/aSv77nV.png)

Author:

(https://i.imgur.com/hCebSwj.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 20, 2021, 09:58:02 PM
If you can get the disease after the shot, then you are not being administered a vaccine.

Period.
Then what would you call an injection that provides your body with a blueprint to fight a disease to ensure its full effects don't hit you?
A prophylactic, similar to ivermectin or even hydroxychloroquine in effectiveness when it comes to outcome-based treatment.
So it prevents disease.
But you just said it didn't.

So, Hydroxychloroqhine didn't prevent Trump from getting covid.  AND ivermectin doesn't seem to orevent disease either.

Also: since I had an immune response when I took the shot (both doses) it makes the case that it created antibodies, which means its a vaccine, no?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 20, 2021, 10:25:29 PM
England is miscounting in the same way as the US and Canada:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/916035/RA_Technical_Summary_-_PHE_Data_Series_COVID_19_Deaths_20200812.pdf

(https://i.imgur.com/V421ldE.png)

Related article about miscounting in England:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/analysis-why-englands-covid-19-death-toll-is-wrong-but-not-by-much

Quote
Following the health secretary’s move on Friday, Yoon K Loke and Carl Heneghan, of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine at Oxford University, wrote in a blogpost: “It seems that PHE regularly looks for people on the NHS database who have ever tested positive, and simply checks to see if they are still alive or not. PHE does not appear to consider how long ago the Covid test result was, nor whether the person has been successfully treated in hospital and discharged to the community.”

A Department of Health and Social Care source summed this up as: “You could have been tested positive in February, have no symptoms, then be hit by a bus in July and you’d be recorded as a Covid death.”

When the Guardian put this to a source at PHE, they said that such a scenario would “technically” be counted as a coronavirus death, “though the numbers where that situation would apply are likely to be very small”. PHE says it calculates deaths in this way because, in most circumstances, it cannot dismiss the possibility that Covid-19 could have played a role in the death.

Except for the fact that people die every week in England by the thousands from all sorts of different causes, not just busses.  ::)

A professor argues in favor of the method:

Quote
Speaking at a meeting of the Independent Sage committee, Prof Christina Pagel, a professor of operational research at UCL, said: “If someone [got Covid-19] in mid-March, recovered early April, the chances of them then dying from something completely different in the last couple of months is quite low. So I don’t think it has caused a massive distortion.”

Uh, no. People are consistently dying in large numbers every day by things that are not Covid. If large numbers of people are getting asymptomatic Covid, this counting method is faulty. What an idiot. This is either stupidity or deliberate evil.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 21, 2021, 12:11:21 AM
England is miscounting in the same way as the US and Canada:

Toronto isn’t Canada and you haven’t shown that all the US counts the same.

Quote
A professor argues in favor of the method:

Quote
Speaking at a meeting of the Independent Sage committee, Prof Christina Pagel, a professor of operational research at UCL, said: “If someone [got Covid-19] in mid-March, recovered early April, the chances of them then dying from something completely different in the last couple of months is quite low. So I don’t think it has caused a massive distortion.”

Uh, no.

Hey Tom, remember when you got all high and mighty because the expertise of someone you quoted was questioned? Look at you not giving a fuck about ethics or standards. Lol

Quote
People are consistently dying in large numbers every day by things that are not Covid.

We aren’t talking about large numbers of people, we are talking about the mortality risk over a short period of time.

Quote
If a large numbers of people are getting asymptomatic Covid, this counting method is faulty.

Iiiiiiiffffff

Quote
What an idiot. This is either stupidity or deliberate evil.

I guess when someone disagrees with you all you have left is an Ad Hom?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 21, 2021, 07:46:05 AM
I think I finally found Tom's source code:

10 TROLL
20 IGNORE RESPONSE
30 GOTO 10

Conversations just go round and round. He's been shown the data which proves it's not just Covid deaths being overcounted that explains the death rate over the last year.
Here's the UK age corrected all cause mortality rate over the last 30 years. Clear falling trend until last year. And it'll be interesting to see this year's as the death rate was 42% above average in mid-Feb this year because of Covid. Well, it's either Covid or a lot of motorcycle accidents for some reason:

(https://i.ibb.co/0GsjqjS/Death-Rates-UK.jpg)

And here's the data from the US which shows that some other causes of mortality have increased and others decreased but overall if you take out Covid there's nothing out of the ordinary going on. It's the Covid deaths which explain the abnormal death rate:

(https://i.ibb.co/mtgwGSB/USDeaths2020.jpg)

Tom will continue to ignore this or explain it away somehow, it's probably best not to feed the troll. There's no prospect of advancing the conversation in any sensible way, it just goes round and round.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 21, 2021, 08:22:53 AM
It keeps going around and around because you neglect to account for the deaths that were up generally during the pandemic, which taints your argument. People were delaying medical care due to fear that they would get Covid in the hospital or clinic, as stated by a source several pages ago.

https://www.nwpb.org/2020/11/25/further-proof-that-2020-stinks-more-people-are-dying-during-the-pandemic-not-just-from-covid/

(https://i.imgur.com/g8dcDFu.png)

If those excess Covid deaths are erroneously counted, then they may be attributed to the general increase in excess deaths that we know existed as the time. This other factor of a general increase of deaths during the pandemic ruins your argument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 21, 2021, 08:52:35 AM
If those excess Covid deaths are erroneously counted, then they may be attributed to the general increase in excess deaths that we know existed as the time. This other factor of a general increase of deaths during the pandemic ruins your argument.

If? What if they are not erroneously counted. Lots of learned folks are worried that we have undercounted.

And yeah, lots of people have died last year and this year because of covid. From it directly and indirectly. From it directly, as a contributing factor, because they are not vaxed, because they didn’t seek medical attention out of fear of getting it, canceled procedures, overwhelmed healthcare system, lost jobs, depression, addiction. The list goes on. Pretty much pandemic 101 results.

So what’s your point?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 21, 2021, 09:22:20 AM
It keeps going around and around because you neglect to account for the deaths that were up generally during the pandemic
The graphs above literally show that ???
You are trolling and gaslighting, you are clearly not interested in serious debate.
You've basically admitted you treat this place as a debating society where you take the contrary opinion as an intellectual exercise.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 21, 2021, 09:41:27 AM
Those graphs are a hot mess. You might want to get a better ones. I don't remember 2019 being when Covid started:

(https://i.imgur.com/5XyKf4r.png)

And why is it suggesting that there was Covid in 2015?

And why is Total Excluding Covid higher than Total Including Covid? Total Including Covid suggests that it contains everything and should be higher. Nonsense.

If the blue increase is supposed to represent an increase in non-Covid deaths then it just illustrates the point that there were a general increase in deaths that the excess Covid deaths can be attributed to if they were erroneously counted. But again, those graphs don't make much sense. It is unsurprising that you are promoting them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 21, 2021, 10:02:08 AM
So whats your opinion on covid Tom. Is it something that if you contracted that you would be worried about? Lots of people talked like you and have ended up dying after getting infected with the sars cov-2. I'm fairly certain all those right wing shock jock radio show announcers were not at end stage cancer or died from a traffic accident

Also why would you be happy to take Ivermectin from a Big Pharma company that gave the world Vioxx when even they (Merck) say it appears to be ineffective for treating or preventing covid
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 21, 2021, 10:11:06 AM
And why is it suggesting that there was Covid in 2015?
Sigh...

OK, fair enough, I did get the labels the wrong way around. The orange line is the total deaths from those causes excluding Covid.
The blue line is adding Covid. My mistake, but obvious enough that I'd expect most people to have worked it out on their own.

Obviously Covid deaths only occurred from 2020 which is why you can't see the blue line before that.
The point is your assertion is that deaths from other causes increased last year too. As the split out data shows, that's true for some causes and not others - some actually went down. But overall deaths in 2020 were a little higher than in 2019 - although it should be noted that that is part of a general rising trend. When you add in Covid though the difference is clear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 21, 2021, 12:20:01 PM
COVID has killed more than the Spanish Flu in the US:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 21, 2021, 12:24:56 PM
Welcome to the big show where everyone is the crisis actor.

Remember the haunted houses down the street that turned out to be nothing more than the local bootlegger's brewery?

Same concept, only larger.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 21, 2021, 12:29:53 PM
Welcome to the big show where everyone is the crisis actor.

Remember the haunted houses down the street that turned out to be nothing more than the local bootlegger's brewery?

Same concept, only larger.
How do you become a crisis actor?  Because there must be millions by now...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 21, 2021, 12:50:35 PM
Welcome to the big show where everyone is the crisis actor.

Remember the haunted houses down the street that turned out to be nothing more than the local bootlegger's brewery?

Same concept, only larger.
How do you become a crisis actor?  Because there must be millions by now...
The entire US at least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 21, 2021, 01:15:10 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 21, 2021, 01:21:22 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?
I am no longer asking you to buy or consider anything I am writing or selling.

I am now posting my thoughts on what is taking place for the benefit of others.

You are too far gone and even if you could be salvaged, I made up my mind long ago you wouldn't be worth the piss to put out any flame.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 21, 2021, 01:22:00 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 21, 2021, 01:26:54 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?
I am no longer asking you to buy or consider anything I am writing or selling.

I am now posting my thoughts on what is taking place for the benefit of others.

You are too far gone and even if you could be salvaged, I made up my mind long ago you wouldn't be worth the piss to put out any flame.

If you want to benefit others maybe you should stick to facts instead of your rage fueled, copium filled conspiracies?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 21, 2021, 01:38:02 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?
I am no longer asking you to buy or consider anything I am writing or selling.

I am now posting my thoughts on what is taking place for the benefit of others.

You are too far gone and even if you could be salvaged, I made up my mind long ago you wouldn't be worth the piss to put out any flame.

If you want to benefit others maybe you should stick to facts instead of your rage fueled, copium filled conspiracies?
It is definitely a fact you are too far gone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 21, 2021, 04:35:49 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.

Lackie is a government anti-crisis actor. He is being paid tax dollars to hide the true nature of the pandemic.

Just like Trump, he knows what's really going on but he's part of the conspiracy to hide the truth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 21, 2021, 05:24:31 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.

Lackie is a government anti-crisis actor. He is being paid tax dollars to hide the true nature of the pandemic.

Just like Trump, he knows what's really going on but he's part of the conspiracy to hide the truth.

This actually makes a lot of sense. It's far more plausible than that he actually believes what he posts.

How much are they paying you to be a fearmongering crisis actor, lackey?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 21, 2021, 06:57:36 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.

Lackie is a government anti-crisis actor. He is being paid tax dollars to hide the true nature of the pandemic.

Just like Trump, he knows what's really going on but he's part of the conspiracy to hide the truth.

This actually makes a lot of sense. It's far more plausible than that he actually believes what he posts.

How much are they paying you to be a fearmongering crisis actor, lackey?
I fail to see a fearful reaction in response to my posts.

Therefore, you must have made an error, as usual.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 21, 2021, 07:52:16 PM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.

Lackie is a government anti-crisis actor. He is being paid tax dollars to hide the true nature of the pandemic.

Just like Trump, he knows what's really going on but he's part of the conspiracy to hide the truth.

This actually makes a lot of sense. It's far more plausible than that he actually believes what he posts.

How much are they paying you to be a fearmongering crisis actor, lackey?
I fail to see a fearful reaction in response to my posts.

Therefore, you must have made an error, as usual.

It's not for lack of trying. You probably don't even realize you're doing it though, being a puppet and all.

Seriously, on one side, you have a strong majority of health professionals urging people that the vaccine is safe and that the more people who get it the faster we will be able to put all these inconveniences that we're all being forced to live with behind us.

And then there's your side, desperately trying to convince everyone that the vaccine is dangerous and who knows what the long-term effects are and even crazy shit like people who are vaccinated are dying at higher rates than people who aren't. They are trying to convince people that they will be in mortal danger if they get the vaccine that is perfectly safe according to the medical and scientific consensus.

And somehow we're the fearmongers and crisis actors, lol. I have to say that (assuming you are serious, and who knows?) they screwed those strings in you pretty tight for you to still be going along with it.  :D
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 21, 2021, 09:41:01 PM
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/


"The organized left is deliberately putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies in the world."


" The left’s morality is guided only by that which furthers their fascist agenda, and so using reverse psychology to trick Trump supporters NOT to get a life-saving vaccine is, to them, a moral good. The more of us who die, the better."


There it is. Tom and Lackey have been fooled by the left's greatest trolling ever.  Breitbart would never print anything that isn't true. All conservatives know that.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 22, 2021, 01:31:23 AM
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/


"The organized left is deliberately putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies in the world."


" The left’s morality is guided only by that which furthers their fascist agenda, and so using reverse psychology to trick Trump supporters NOT to get a life-saving vaccine is, to them, a moral good. The more of us who die, the better."


There it is. Tom and Lackey have been fooled by the left's greatest trolling ever.  Breitbart would never print anything that isn't true. All conservatives know that.

Wow. It's devious, but not surprising. After all, why would the Right want to take measures that would lead to the deaths of their followers? How do they benefit? Oh, that nefarious Left, convincing Trump supporters that they shouldn't get vaccinated by urging them to get vaccinated!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 04:31:17 AM
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/


"The organized left is deliberately putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies in the world."


" The left’s morality is guided only by that which furthers their fascist agenda, and so using reverse psychology to trick Trump supporters NOT to get a life-saving vaccine is, to them, a moral good. The more of us who die, the better."


There it is. Tom and Lackey have been fooled by the left's greatest trolling ever.  Breitbart would never print anything that isn't true. All conservatives know that.

Wow. It's devious, but not surprising. After all, why would the Right want to take measures that would lead to the deaths of their followers? How do they benefit? Oh, that nefarious Left, convincing Trump supporters that they shouldn't get vaccinated by urging them to get vaccinated!

Quote
The “cases” talking point is so absurd it’s why I question the authenticity of those making it. Could it be that the left has created thousands upon thousands of sock puppet accounts so that every time someone like myself suggests a Trump supporter gets a life-saving vaccine, a flurry of sock puppets jump in to muddy the waters?

This explaims Lackey.  A left wing puppet account whose job it is to keep Trump supporters from getting the life saving vaccine so they die.
Lacky is a Leftist shill!

Also:
Quote
and shoving us in those filthy masks.
Huh... Turns out he hates masks because he doesn't use clean ones.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 08:41:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyVrqtWbV3A
Basically, the mandate is constitutional and while it can be challenged, until that challenge process finishes, its not going anywhere.

And if you want to kill the power that lets Biden (or any president) do stuff like this, you're going to need to redo alot of things through congress because congress gave OSHA(and the president) this power back in the 70s. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 22, 2021, 08:46:07 AM
I don't remember 2019 being when Covid started
Where do you think the "19" in "COVID-19" came from?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 22, 2021, 09:27:15 AM
I don't remember 2019 being when Covid started
Where do you think the "19" in "COVID-19" came from?
To be fair to Tom, my graph was showing Covid deaths which didn't start in 2019 - in the US at least.
But to be fair to me, it was bleedin' obvious that the labels were the wrong way round when showing the leading causes of deaths over the last few years and the impact Covid had last year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 10:21:49 AM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.

Lackie is a government anti-crisis actor. He is being paid tax dollars to hide the true nature of the pandemic.

Just like Trump, he knows what's really going on but he's part of the conspiracy to hide the truth.

This actually makes a lot of sense. It's far more plausible than that he actually believes what he posts.

How much are they paying you to be a fearmongering crisis actor, lackey?
I fail to see a fearful reaction in response to my posts.

Therefore, you must have made an error, as usual.

It's not for lack of trying. You probably don't even realize you're doing it though, being a puppet and all.

Seriously, on one side, you have a strong majority of health professionals urging people that the vaccine is safe and that the more people who get it the faster we will be able to put all these inconveniences that we're all being forced to live with behind us.

And then there's your side, desperately trying to convince everyone that the vaccine is dangerous and who knows what the long-term effects are and even crazy shit like people who are vaccinated are dying at higher rates than people who aren't. They are trying to convince people that they will be in mortal danger if they get the vaccine that is perfectly safe according to the medical and scientific consensus.

And somehow we're the fearmongers and crisis actors, lol. I have to say that (assuming you are serious, and who knows?) they screwed those strings in you pretty tight for you to still be going along with it.  :D
I have NEVER STATED the vaccine is dangerous.

Not once.

Appealing to numbers is your game when it suits you.

You, Rama, AATW, xasop, junker, will soon pay the price for your indolence.

The advocacy for the type of world in which we now live will soon force all to pay in ways which will be more uncomfortable for each of you in the end.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 11:07:09 AM
The entire US at least.

So if you are a crisis actor, how do we know you aren't lying about being a crisis actor?

His job is to be a crisis actor, stating that there's a crisis regarding too many crisis actors.

Lackie is a government anti-crisis actor. He is being paid tax dollars to hide the true nature of the pandemic.

Just like Trump, he knows what's really going on but he's part of the conspiracy to hide the truth.

This actually makes a lot of sense. It's far more plausible than that he actually believes what he posts.

How much are they paying you to be a fearmongering crisis actor, lackey?
I fail to see a fearful reaction in response to my posts.

Therefore, you must have made an error, as usual.

It's not for lack of trying. You probably don't even realize you're doing it though, being a puppet and all.

Seriously, on one side, you have a strong majority of health professionals urging people that the vaccine is safe and that the more people who get it the faster we will be able to put all these inconveniences that we're all being forced to live with behind us.

And then there's your side, desperately trying to convince everyone that the vaccine is dangerous and who knows what the long-term effects are and even crazy shit like people who are vaccinated are dying at higher rates than people who aren't. They are trying to convince people that they will be in mortal danger if they get the vaccine that is perfectly safe according to the medical and scientific consensus.

And somehow we're the fearmongers and crisis actors, lol. I have to say that (assuming you are serious, and who knows?) they screwed those strings in you pretty tight for you to still be going along with it.  :D
I have NEVER STATED the vaccine is dangerous.

Not once.

Appealing to numbers is your game when it suits you.

You, Rama, AATW, xasop, junker, will soon pay the price for your indolence.

The advocacy for the type of world in which we now live will soon force all to pay in ways which will be more uncomfortable for each of you in the end.

You mean benefit of society?
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Like the need for people to do drugs outweigh the needs of people to not have to deal with them.
The needs of the few who like to litter outweigh the needs of those who need the land to not be full of trash.
The needs of snowflakes who fear needles outweighs the health of society at large.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 22, 2021, 11:11:01 AM
And if you want to kill the power that lets Biden (or any president) do stuff like this, you're going to need to redo alot of things through congress because congress gave OSHA(and the president) this power back in the 70s.
While I don't disagree with the policy, this kind of power should not be in the hands of one man. Until America gets its shit together and starts having actual votes on such things, it cannot legitimately claim to be a modern democracy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 11:22:00 AM
And if you want to kill the power that lets Biden (or any president) do stuff like this, you're going to need to redo alot of things through congress because congress gave OSHA(and the president) this power back in the 70s.
While I don't disagree with the policy, this kind of power should not be in the hands of one man. Until America gets its shit together and starts having actual votes on such things, it cannot legitimately claim to be a modern democracy.
It was done in the 70s(one of them anyway) because regulations took too long to enact.  So they created OSHA and gave them the power to make rules and enforce said rules within a limited scope.  And as president, Biden directs OSHA.

Taking it away means regulations will need to be passed through congress before enacting.  And we all know how that goes...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 11:23:09 AM
You mean benefit of society?
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Like the need for people to do drugs outweigh the needs of people to not have to deal with them.
The needs of the few who like to litter outweigh the needs of those who need the land to not be full of trash.
The needs of snowflakes who fear needles outweighs the health of society at large.
I am sure you don't have a goddamn clue what the word society means.

Thanks for reminding me I forgot to include you in the prior list.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 22, 2021, 11:42:24 AM
Taking it away means regulations will need to be passed through congress before enacting.  And we all know how that goes...
Yes, fixing the broken political system that makes productive discussions in Congress difficult is another reform that's about two centuries overdue.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 22, 2021, 11:45:10 AM
You mean benefit of society?
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Like the need for people to do drugs outweigh the needs of people to not have to deal with them.
The needs of the few who like to litter outweigh the needs of those who need the land to not be full of trash.
The needs of snowflakes who fear needles outweighs the health of society at large.
I am sure you don't have a goddamn clue what the word society means.

Thanks for reminding me I forgot to include you in the prior list.

Hey! What about me?!   I'm on the list too!

But don't worry. Now I understand your position on vaccines better. Don't let them inject you with that crap. It's full of mercury, microchips, nanites and the blood of Satan. Tell all your conservative friends!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 22, 2021, 11:58:20 AM
You, Rama, AATW, xasop, junker, will soon pay the price for your indolence.
Oh yes? What would that price would be?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 11:59:20 AM
You mean benefit of society?
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Like the need for people to do drugs outweigh the needs of people to not have to deal with them.
The needs of the few who like to litter outweigh the needs of those who need the land to not be full of trash.
The needs of snowflakes who fear needles outweighs the health of society at large.
I am sure you don't have a goddamn clue what the word society means.

Thanks for reminding me I forgot to include you in the prior list.
A collection of individuals with shared goals and culture who work together for the benefit of the group as a whole.
Example: paying taxes so roads for everyone can be built.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 22, 2021, 12:36:51 PM
Alberta decided Florida was getting too much attention over its incompetence:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-asks-ottawa-for-covid-19-help-1.6184484
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 05:02:58 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.

Ignores the concept of self-determination.

Advocates MOB RULE!

Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 22, 2021, 05:24:10 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.

Ignores the concept of self-determination.

Advocates MOB RULE!

Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)

Quite the contrary.  The quote simply reminds people that their own needs should be set aside for the greater good; self-determination is exercised in whether or not the reader is capable of selfless action or not.  Judging by your utter contempt for such actions, we can only assume that you are only capable of selfish action.  Indeed your past assertions that selfless action was a myth supports this supposition.

It's sad really.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 05:46:36 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.

Ignores the concept of self-determination.

Advocates MOB RULE!

Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)

Quite the contrary.  The quote simply reminds people that their own needs should be set aside for the greater good; self-determination is exercised in whether or not the reader is capable of selfless action or not.  Judging by your utter contempt for such actions, we can only assume that you are only capable of selfish action.  Indeed your past assertions that selfless action was a myth supports this supposition.

It's sad really.
Quite the contrary, the quote simply reminds people there are always proud DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALISTS (NAZIS) like you and Lord Dave ready to dictate the maxim MUST BE FOLLOWED by ALL, whether one like it or not or whether one determines to follow it or not.

Rama - "MY IDEAL MUST BE YOUR IDEAL OR ELSE!"

Your thoughts and musings are ultimately dangerous to society, far more dangerous than any physical crime that could ever be committed, and I will continually call them out for what they truly are, for your life philosophy gives birth to the despicable physical criminality running rampant now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 22, 2021, 05:59:15 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.

Ignores the concept of self-determination.

Advocates MOB RULE!

Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)

Quite the contrary.  The quote simply reminds people that their own needs should be set aside for the greater good; self-determination is exercised in whether or not the reader is capable of selfless action or not.  Judging by your utter contempt for such actions, we can only assume that you are only capable of selfish action.  Indeed your past assertions that selfless action was a myth supports this supposition.

It's sad really.
Quite the contrary, the quote simply reminds people there are always proud DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALISTS (NAZIS) like you and Lord Dave ready to dictate the maxim MUST BE FOLLOWED by ALL, whether one like it or not or whether one determines to follow it or not.

Weird, the word Nazi is no where in the maxim.  I would say you are projecting, if I had to guess.

Quote
Rama - "MY IDEAL MUST BE YOUR IDEAL OR ELSE!"

There is no threat of retribution from me.  You can try to demonize me all you want, but we both know it's just your unreconciled rage at past events in your own life.

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Your thoughts and musings are ultimately dangerous to society, far more dangerous than any physical crime that could ever be committed, and I will continually call them out for what they truly are, for your life philosophy gives birth to the despicable physical criminality running rampant now.

Oh nice bit of trolling.  Tell me, what is my "life philosophy"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 06:13:45 PM
Oh nice bit of trolling.  Tell me, what is my "life philosophy"?
Writing everything you have written here is a pretty fair indicator of how you approach life in general, aka philosophy.

Also a pretty clear indicator of how Germans found themselves going along with Hitler in the 30's and 40's.

Only this time, it is the unvaxxed getting gassed in the world that Lord Dave, Roundy, you, and xasop fervently desire.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 22, 2021, 06:16:30 PM
Oh nice bit of trolling.  Tell me, what is my "life philosophy"?
Writing everything you have written here is a pretty fair indicator of how you approach life in general, aka philosophy.

Also a pretty clear indicator of how Germans found themselves going along with Hitler in the 30's and 40's.

Only this time, it is the unvaxxed getting gassed in the world that Lord Dave, Roundy, you, and xasop fervently desire.

If you don’t know, just say so. Continually calling me a nazi and weirdly fantasizing about how I want to gas people isn’t convincing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 06:35:19 PM
Oh nice bit of trolling.  Tell me, what is my "life philosophy"?
Writing everything you have written here is a pretty fair indicator of how you approach life in general, aka philosophy.

Also a pretty clear indicator of how Germans found themselves going along with Hitler in the 30's and 40's.

Only this time, it is the unvaxxed getting gassed in the world that Lord Dave, Roundy, you, and xasop fervently desire.

If you don’t know, just say so. Continually calling me a nazi and weirdly fantasizing about how I want to gas people isn’t convincing.
I wrote the "how" right here for all to see.

Any rational mind will see it.

Those with a renewed mind are quite capable of putting two and two in order to arrive at four.

Gassing at Auschwitz was the same as fiery furnace at Babylon or a lion's den at Susa.

I am sure you and Dave will enjoy the starvation measures as they provide longer lasting entertainment.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 22, 2021, 06:44:55 PM
I wrote the "how" right here for all to see.

Yes, I see that you are fantasizing about me wanting to gas the unvaxxed.  It's weird.

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Any rational mind will see it.

Riiiiiight.

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Those with a renewed mind are quite capable of putting two and two in order to arrive at four.

Such a grandiose and noble person you are.

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Gassing at Auschwitz was the same as fiery furnace at Babylon or a lion's den at Susa.

I am sure you and Dave will enjoy the starvation measures as they provide longer lasting entertainment.

It's amazing how sure you are.  It must be difficult to be so disconnected from the basic human experience.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 06:53:34 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.
Everyone but spock lived.  (And then Spock came back)

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Ignores the concept of self-determination.
What good is self-determination if your choice to not die gets you killed anyway?
Are you really saying that every fire fighter, police officer, and soldier is the enemy of democracy?  Because they put the needs of the many (city, state, nation) above their own.  Often.

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Advocates MOB RULE!
MOB rule is typically spontanious and against social wellbeing.  So... No.

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Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)
God you're pathetic.  At least write something that spells Nazi.  Like "National Antihisis to Zion Initiative" or something.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 06:56:46 PM
I wrote the "how" right here for all to see.

Yes, I see that you are fantasizing about me wanting to gas the unvaxxed.  It's weird.

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Any rational mind will see it.

Riiiiiight.

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Those with a renewed mind are quite capable of putting two and two in order to arrive at four.

Such a grandiose and noble person you are.

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Gassing at Auschwitz was the same as fiery furnace at Babylon or a lion's den at Susa.

I am sure you and Dave will enjoy the starvation measures as they provide longer lasting entertainment.

It's amazing how sure you are.  It must be difficult to be so disconnected from the basic human experience.
Like I wrote, earlier, the evidence is right here.

I have nailed your overall life philosophy to perfection.

Your desire to see others who do not share is rather apparent in how easily you manage to dehumanize those who disagree, writing I am the one disconnected from basic human experience.

I write nothing of the sort regarding you, giving you full credit for being human.

A human with a despicable agenda in mind for those you do not consider human or for those you consider "disconnected from basic human experience."

You continue to use the word "gas," when I made it quite clear other methods, such as forced starvation through economic means, will be utilized to gain mandated compliance, further providing examples of historical "gassings," not actually utilizing gassings.

As I wrote, your expressed views in this forum ARE A PERFECT DESCRIPTION OF WHAT YOU TRULY ARE, and it is DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALISM in living color.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 07:04:05 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.
Everyone but spock lived.  (And then Spock came back)
Because those that lived recognized value in all, unlike you.
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Ignores the concept of self-determination.
What good is self-determination if your choice to not die gets you killed anyway?

Are you really saying that every fire fighter, police officer, and soldier is the enemy of democracy?  Because they put the needs of the many (city, state, nation) above their own.  Often.
Through their own self -determination they determine that.

Just freaking clueless, you are proving to be.
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Advocates MOB RULE!
MOB rule is typically spontanious and against social wellbeing.  So... No.
You were a tremendous advocate for BLM protests and all other forms of anti-republic actions, labeling a republic = to a fascist form.

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Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)
God you're pathetic.  At least write something that spells Nazi.  Like "National Antihisis to Zion Initiative" or something.
Democratic National Socialists are NAZIS.

And that is definitely your preferred politics and life philosophy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 22, 2021, 07:05:56 PM
Like I wrote, earlier, the evidence is right here.

I have nailed your overall life philosophy to perfection.

Yikes.  There is the delusion again.

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Your desire to see others who do not share is rather apparent in how easily you manage to dehumanize those who disagree, writing I am the one disconnected from basic human experience.

I am not dehumanizing you, I am empathizing with you.  Anyone who blames internet strangers for the death of their family, declares that they have perfectly encapsulated the mind of said stranger and called said stranger a nazi is someone who is oddly devoid of the basic uncertainty that is so integral to being human.  You have deep issues.

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I write nothing of the sort regarding you, giving you full credit for being human.

I give you credit for being human.  A human in tremendous pain who, instead of dealing with the pain, calls internet strangers nazis to reconcile that pain.

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A human with a despicable agenda in mind for those you do not consider human or for those you consider "disconnected from basic human experience."

My agenda today was working, eating chips and dip, watching "The Watchmen" series, then going to acting class.  How insidious.

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You continue to use the word "gas," when I made it quite clear other methods such as forced starvation through economic means will be utilized to gain mandated compliance, further providing examples of historical "gassings," not actually utilizing gassings.

As I wrote, your expressed views in this forum ARE A PERFECT DESCRIPTION OF WHAT YOU TRULY ARE, and it is DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALISM in living color.

There you go with your grandiose claims of perfection again.  Yikes.  Big Yikes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 22, 2021, 07:21:42 PM
Like I wrote, earlier, the evidence is right here.

I have nailed your overall life philosophy to perfection.

Yikes.  There is the delusion again.

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Your desire to see others who do not share is rather apparent in how easily you manage to dehumanize those who disagree, writing I am the one disconnected from basic human experience.

I am not dehumanizing you, I am empathizing with you.
BWHAHAHA!!!! Let us read on to see how this "empathizing" takes form.
Anyone who blames internet strangers for the death of their family...
Seeing the advocacy of policies that helped to contribute to the death of loved ones being openly promulgated and promoted on an internet forum would be worthy of a lambasting.
declares that they have perfectly encapsulated the mind of said stranger and called said stranger a nazi is someone who is oddly devoid of the basic uncertainty that is so integral to being human.  You have deep issues.
When you openly advocate in writing for DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALIST IDEALS, you are going to have those ideals openly labeled as NAZI in writing.

By me.

Each and every time.

As long as I live.
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I write nothing of the sort regarding you, giving you full credit for being human.

I give you credit for being human.  A human in tremendous pain who, instead of dealing with the pain, calls internet strangers nazis to reconcile that pain.
BWHAHAHAHA!!!

Here is your quote: " disconnected from the basic human experience."

i.e. - not human.

Anyone who advocates for DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALISM is...wait for it... A NAZI.

While all aspects of your life are not known here, your political philosophy and, by extent your life philosophy, are easily garnered from your postings here.

Being a NAZI does not make you a criminal, it only makes you a NAZI.
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A human with a despicable agenda in mind for those you do not consider human or for those you consider "disconnected from basic human experience."
My agenda today was working, eating chips and dip, watching "The Watchmen" series, then going to acting class.  How insidious.
Given we have multiple examples of outcomes in regard to the overall human condition after implementation of DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALIST policies, insidious is rather appropriate.
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You continue to use the word "gas," when I made it quite clear other methods such as forced starvation through economic means will be utilized to gain mandated compliance, further providing examples of historical "gassings," not actually utilizing gassings.

As I wrote, your expressed views in this forum ARE A PERFECT DESCRIPTION OF WHAT YOU TRULY ARE, and it is DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALISM in living color.

There you go with your grandiose claims of perfection again.  Yikes.  Big Yikes.
Your writings are the perfect description and testament to what you truly are, none originating from me.

Bye.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2021, 09:43:45 PM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.
Everyone but spock lived.  (And then Spock came back)
Because those that lived recognized value in all, unlike you.
This is a weird way to say "You're right Dave".  You do realize that the point of the quote is that everyone has value and an individual should not put his needs above the needs of everyone else.  Here's a good, easy example:
Like lets say power's out and no one has AC in 105F weather.  Except you because you have a backup power system with A/C.  Now, if you put your needs above others, you'll just let your neighbors suffer in the heat and maybe die.  If you put their needs above yours, you'll invite them over to keep cool.  It won't be AS good, maybe keep everyone at 80F instead of 65F, but they'll all live.  You sacrifice your comfort for the safety of the community members.  THAT is the point.

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Ignores the concept of self-determination.
What good is self-determination if your choice to not die gets you killed anyway?

Are you really saying that every fire fighter, police officer, and soldier is the enemy of democracy?  Because they put the needs of the many (city, state, nation) above their own.  Often.
Through their own self -determination they determine that.
Yes and if you self determine to be a hindrance or danger to society, we remove you from society.  Actions have consequences and when your actions harm others or allow others to be harmed, you are not supporting the society and are nothing more than a drain on its resources.  No one is taking away self determination, we're just doing what has always been done: applying consequences.

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Advocates MOB RULE!
MOB rule is typically spontanious and against social wellbeing.  So... No.
You were a tremendous advocate for BLM protests and all other forms of anti-republic actions, labeling a republic = to a fascist form.
Not true.  I hated the Capitol Riots of January 2021.  And that was anti-republic.

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Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)
God you're pathetic.  At least write something that spells Nazi.  Like "National Antihisis to Zion Initiative" or something.
Democratic National Socialists are NAZIS.

And that is definitely your preferred politics and life philosophy.

Do you know any other fascist group besides Nazis?  Or do you just not remember history?  Or maybe you were taught history of anything other than World War 2?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 23, 2021, 10:43:55 AM
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Quotes fictional character ignoring the ultimate outcome.
Everyone but spock lived.  (And then Spock came back)
Because those that lived recognized value in all, unlike you.
This is a weird way to say "You're right Dave".  You do realize that the point of the quote is that everyone has value and an individual should not put his needs above the needs of everyone else.  Here's a good, easy example:
Like lets say power's out and no one has AC in 105F weather.  Except you because you have a backup power system with A/C.  Now, if you put your needs above others, you'll just let your neighbors suffer in the heat and maybe die.  If you put their needs above yours, you'll invite them over to keep cool.  It won't be AS good, maybe keep everyone at 80F instead of 65F, but they'll all live.  You sacrifice your comfort for the safety of the community members.  THAT is the point.
Jesus H. Christ, the point is Spock chose to do what he did of his OWN FREE WILL.

You are a clear advocate for someone else to hold a gun to Spock's head and make him do what he did to save the others.

What good is self-determination if your choice to not die gets you killed anyway?
You do not have a choice as to whether or not you will die.

Everyone dies eventually.
Are you really saying that every fire fighter, police officer, and soldier is the enemy of democracy?  Because they put the needs of the many (city, state, nation) above their own.  Often.
Through their own self -determination they determine that.
Yes and if you self determine to be a hindrance or danger to society, we remove you from society.  Actions have consequences and when your actions harm others or allow others to be harmed, you are not supporting the society and are nothing more than a drain on its resources.  No one is taking away self determination, we're just doing what has always been done: applying consequences.
The proof of your failed philosophy keeps rolling on and on through your fingers to the keyboard.
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You were a tremendous advocate for BLM protests and all other forms of anti-republic actions, labeling a republic = to a fascist form.
Not true.  I hated the Capitol Riots of January 2021.  And that was anti-republic.
No, it wasn't.

You have no clue about what constitutes a republic.

The lies, moral equivocation, and mental reservation, evident in your posts is absolutely disgusting and reprehensible.
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Lord Dave = True Democratic National Socialist (NAZI)
God you're pathetic.  At least write something that spells Nazi.  Like "National Antihisis to Zion Initiative" or something.
Democratic National Socialists are NAZIS.

And that is definitely your preferred politics and life philosophy.

Do you know any other fascist group besides Nazis?  Or do you just not remember history?  Or maybe you were taught history of anything other than World War 2?
Yeah, I do.

But the one I chose fits you to the tee.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 23, 2021, 11:01:58 AM
I guess we're talking about Nazis and politics and not about the corona virus vaccine?

Personally, I feel great after my 2 shots. I can't wait to catch the virus and then spread it to every anti vaxxer flapwit looking for a Darwin award
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 23, 2021, 11:33:21 AM
I guess we're talking about Nazis and politics and not about the corona virus vaccine?

Personally, I feel great after my 2 shots. I can't wait to catch the virus and then spread it to every anti vaxxer flapwit looking for a Darwin Award

Just a little dalliance to see how far down the ideological pipeline Total Lackey is. He seems to equate mandatory vaccination with the consequence being denial of services to literally forcing someone to get vaccinated. It’s a pretty insane stance.

Glad you got your second jab. I felt a big relief when I got mine as it allowed me to visit my elderly parents, one of which is immunocompromised. I hadn’t seen them since January of 2020, so it was really great.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 23, 2021, 11:47:29 AM
I guess we're talking about Nazis and politics and not about the corona virus vaccine?

Personally, I feel great after my 2 shots. I can't wait to catch the virus and then spread it to every anti vaxxer flapwit looking for a Darwin Award

Just a little dalliance to see how far down the ideological pipeline Total Lackey is. He seems to equate mandatory vaccination with the consequence being denial of services to literally forcing someone to get vaccinated. It’s a pretty insane stance.

Glad you got your second jab. I felt a big relief when I got mine as it allowed me to visit my elderly parents, one of which is immunocompromised. I hadn’t seen them since January of 2020, so it was really great.
Rama, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALIST that he is, equating the phrase "denial of services," to the loss of employment opportunity through constructive termination, thereby leading to loss of adequate shelter, food, proper healthcare, education, etc. (you know, the things he previously claimed EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE REGARDLESS OF STATUS!).

His posts reveal the true multidimensional character of his hypocrisy and hatred for humanity.

Disgusting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 23, 2021, 12:11:33 PM
The lack of labor protection in the US is certainly not the fault of the vaccine. Your treatment of labor down there is disgusting. It’s only marginally better up here. However, you seem to be under the misapprehension that employment is a fundamental right, which it isn’t. If you want to participate in social transactions you don’t always get to do it on exactly your terms. That one of the terms is that you aren’t an eminent public health risk is incredibly reasonable, especially as COVID is claiming more lives than cancer daily. Ultimately, this isn’t a problem since the vaccine is safe and efficient. Stop whining, stop calling people nazis, roll up your sleeve and get immune, bitch.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 23, 2021, 03:01:25 PM
The lack of labor protection in the US is certainly not the fault of the vaccine. Your treatment of labor down there is disgusting. It’s only marginally better up here. However, you seem to be under the misapprehension that employment is a fundamental right, which it isn’t. If you want to participate in social transactions you don’t always get to do it on exactly your terms. That one of the terms is that you aren’t an eminent public health risk is incredibly reasonable, especially as COVID is claiming more lives than cancer daily. Ultimately, this isn’t a problem since the vaccine is safe and efficient. Stop whining, stop calling people nazis, roll up your sleeve and get immune, bitch.
The true DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALIST further displaying his open hypocrisy.

Your advocacy for Malthusian economics is deplorable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 23, 2021, 04:10:02 PM
Ok, thats it.  I'm calling for you to be removed and out into a camp, Lackey.  Please be on the lookout for three police officers.  Your crime will be.... Reckless endangerment of children.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 23, 2021, 04:12:16 PM
The lack of labor protection in the US is certainly not the fault of the vaccine. Your treatment of labor down there is disgusting. It’s only marginally better up here. However, you seem to be under the misapprehension that employment is a fundamental right, which it isn’t. If you want to participate in social transactions you don’t always get to do it on exactly your terms. That one of the terms is that you aren’t an eminent public health risk is incredibly reasonable, especially as COVID is claiming more lives than cancer daily. Ultimately, this isn’t a problem since the vaccine is safe and efficient. Stop whining, stop calling people nazis, roll up your sleeve and get immune, bitch.
The true DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SOCIALIST further displaying his open hypocrisy.

Your advocacy for Malthusian economics is deplorable.

Uhhh, when have I mentioned anything to do with population control? I’m just saying there is always a social contract and that being an eminent public health risk contravenes that in the present times. Break the contract and don’t expect to gain full benefit from society.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 23, 2021, 06:02:03 PM
Ha ha, one of Lackey's puppet masters must have suggested just screaming NAZI! when talking about the vaccine but unable to come up with a reasonable argument. What a good little puppet he is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 07:14:09 PM
Prior to Covid some scholars have noted that genocide historically seems to go through certain stages - search 'stages of genocide'. In relation to Covid, if this were an event leading up to genocide, it is interesting that that a few countries seem to be approaching stage 7:

(https://i.imgur.com/EnQJT4W.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 23, 2021, 07:17:53 PM
Prior to Covid scholars have noted that genocide historically seems to go through certain stages - search 'stages of genocide'. In relation to Covid, if this were an event leading up to genocide, it is interesting that that a number of countries seem to be approaching stage 7:

The group to put you in is classified as "hysterical cry baby".  Take your medicine and rest easy knowing it's safe, efficient, free and good for your fellow humans.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 23, 2021, 07:21:55 PM
Prior to Covid some scholars have noted that genocide historically seems to go through certain stages - search 'stages of genocide'. In relation to Covid, if this were an event leading up to genocide, it is interesting that that a few countries seem to be approaching stage 7:

(https://i.imgur.com/EnQJT4W.png)

You didn't notice that conservatives and conservative media have launched all seven steps against homosexuals, liberals, immigrants, skateboarders, potheads, and anyone else they don't like.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 07:28:41 PM
You didn't notice that conservatives and conservative media have launched all seven steps against homosexuals, liberals, immigrants, skateboarders, potheads, and anyone else they don't like.

It is possible that there are some people who want extermination of liberals and gays. They don't have the power to do it though. Governments, however, do have the power to commit genocide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 23, 2021, 07:32:25 PM
Prior to Covid some scholars have noted that genocide historically seems to go through certain stages - search 'stages of genocide'. In relation to Covid, if this were an event leading up to genocide, it is interesting that that a few countries seem to be approaching stage 7:

Apparently the guy and org that came up with the 10 stages your referenced are super pissed-off that people are actually applying it erroneously to Covid.

GENOCIDE WATCH REJECTS CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT COVID-19 VACCINES

Genocide Watch Rejects Henna Maria's Misuse of the "Ten Stages of Genocide"

Dr. Gregory Stanton and Genocide Watch reject the misuse of Dr. Stanton’s “10 Stages of Genocide” by Henna Maria of the so-called "Dawn of Peace." In a video published online, Henna Maria applies the "10 Stages of Genocide" to her preposterous conspiracy theory.
She says that the Covid-19 pandemic is a hoax and vaccination is really a genocidal plot against people who believe in “medical freedom” and “self-healing.” The intended victims of this "genocide" include people who deny that Covid-19 is real and people who refuse to wear masks.
Dr. Stanton developed the “10 Stages” model to make processes that result in genocide recognizable. His hope is that early recognition will help prevent or halt genocide.
In order for a genocide to develop there must a real conspiracy to commit acts of genocide. Henna Maria's "conspiracy" is entirely imaginary. It is a product of her anti-Vaxxer ideology...

...Genocide Watch condemns Henna Maria's anti-Vaxxer falsehoods about vaccines. Genocide Watch condemns Henna Maria's illegitimate use of the "Ten Stages of Genocide." We demand that Henna Maria remove her video from all websites where it appears. We demand that she cease and desist from mis-using the Ten Stages of Genocide model in the future.


https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-watch-rejects-conspiracy-theories-about-covid-19-vaccines

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 07:37:04 PM
"In order for a genocide to develop there must a real conspiracy to commit acts of genocide" is a pretty weak rebuttal. Nazi Germany or the Armenians didn't declare that they had a conspiracy to commit genocide before it occurred. A lot of their populous saw them as the good guys leading up to it. The author of that article doesn't even deny that the steps have been fulfilled so far.

States are telling hospitals that they can let the unvaccinated die now and no longer need to treat them equally; official approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/22/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/

(https://i.imgur.com/EKLRikU.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 23, 2021, 07:47:28 PM
You didn't notice that conservatives and conservative media have launched all seven steps against homosexuals, liberals, immigrants, skateboarders, potheads, and anyone else they don't like.

It is possible that there are some people who want extermination of liberals and gays. They don't have the power to do it though. Governments, however, do have the power to commit genocide.

Those right-wing freaks are trying to seize control of our government. We are going to stop them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 08:23:37 PM
Interesting. Let me know when people have started preventing liberals and gays from buying food at supermarkets.

https://twitter.com/_mrtdogg/status/1428951408506806272
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on September 23, 2021, 08:31:08 PM
 Gay+cake+Indiana

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 23, 2021, 08:36:21 PM
"In order for a genocide to develop there must a real conspiracy to commit acts of genocide" is a pretty weak rebuttal. Nazi Germany or the Armenians didn't declare that they had a conspiracy to commit genocide before it occurred. A lot of their populous saw them as the good guys leading up to it. The author of that article doesn't even deny that the steps have been fulfilled so far.

The quote says that there must be a real conspiracy. Then you are saying that a conspiracy has to be "declared". Where is this "declared" coming from?

States are telling hospitals that they can let the unvaccinated die now and no longer need to treat them equally; official approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/22/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/

(https://i.imgur.com/EKLRikU.png)

So what you're saying is that the unvaccinated are less likely to survive than the vaccinated?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 08:49:17 PM
The countries in the past didn't openly declare their intentions of genocide in the years and months leading up to it. The person is ignorant of history. It is possible that some countries which committed genocide didn't even intend it or premeditate it and it just happened as the persecution gained momentum. The author does not account for that possibility either.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16352745

(https://i.imgur.com/wKay57I.png)

A number of scholars argue that it is possible that genocides that were not premeditated and that it just happened.

If some countries aren't letting people shop in shopping centers and other countries are letting unvaccinated people die in hospitals and are building Covid quarantine camps it's obvious that they don't really care too much about the lives of unvaccinated.

Can you promise that they will stop tomorrow and that it's not going to escalate?

Again, the steps have been fulfilled so far and it isn't even denied. Your rebuttal is that someone random you plucked from a website on the internet doesn't think so, as if genocides are always premeditated as a "plot" or are openly expressed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 23, 2021, 09:13:47 PM
The countries in the past didn't openly declare their intentions of genocide in the years and months leading up to it. The person is ignorant of history. It is possible that some countries which committed genocide didn't even intend it or premeditate it and it just happened as the persecution gained momentum. The author does not account for that possibility either.

Like I said, there's nothing about having to "declare" anything. I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

If some countries aren't letting people shop in shopping centers and other countries are letting unvaccinated people die in hospitals and are building Covid quarantine camps it's obvious that they don't really care too much about the lives of unvaccinated.

Who is letting unvaccinated people die in quarantine camps?

Can you promise that they will stop tomorrow and that it's not going to escalate?

Is the Alaska triage thing built on "Are you vaccinated or not"? Or is their triage built upon how bad off a patient is in their current state?

Again, the steps have been fulfilled so far and it isn't even denied. Your rebuttal is that someone random you plucked from a website on the internet doesn't think so, as if genocides are always premeditated as a "plot" or are openly expressed.

It's not really someone random. It's the actual guy who devised the Ten Stages of Genocide you referenced.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 09:26:49 PM
Is he endorsing that article? That's even worse. The person who is recognized for it isn't even denying that the steps are being fulfilled and questions if there is a known 'plot'. Scary.

Quote from: stack
Like I said, there's nothing about having to "declare" anything. I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

Right, it isn't necessary for people to know about it for it to happen.

Quote from: stack
Is the Alaska triage thing built on "Are you vaccinated or not"? Or is their triage built upon how bad off a patient is in their current state?

Maybe read the article. It's a response to Covid. The law changes equal treatment and leaves it up to the health provider. If the health provider thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 09:48:04 PM
The other state to implement this 'crisis standards of care' was Idaho. They directly cite the unvaccinated:

https://coronavirus.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/CSC-Declaration.pdf

(https://i.imgur.com/KttWIAP.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 23, 2021, 09:48:46 PM
Is he endorsing that article? That's even worse. The person who is recognized for it isn't even denying that the steps are being fulfilled and questions if there is a known 'plot'. Scary.

He came up with the stages:

Gregory H. Stanton is the former Research Professor in Genocide Studies and Prevention at the George Mason University in Fairfax County, Virginia, United States. He is best known for his work in the area of genocide studies. He is the founder and president of Genocide Watch,[1] the founder and director of the Cambodian Genocide Project,[2][3] and the Chair of the Alliance Against Genocide. From 2007 to 2009 he was the President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars.

He seems far more accomplished in the field of Genocide studies than you do.

Quote from: stack
Is the Alaska triage thing built on "Are you vaccinated or not"? Or is their triage built upon how bad off a patient is in their current state?

Maybe read the article. It's a response to Covid. If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.

I did read the article. Where does it say, "If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now." I couldn't seem to find that or anything like it anywhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 23, 2021, 10:20:08 PM
Interesting. Let me know when people have started preventing liberals and gays from buying food at supermarkets.

Nice propaganda. There is no law in France banning people from buying food or water. They are not allowed to enter malls. Some malls have groceries. Stop with the hysteria.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2021, 10:56:51 PM
Quote from: stack
He came up with the stages:

Gregory H. Stanton is the former Research Professor in Genocide Studies and Prevention at the George Mason University in Fairfax County, Virginia, United States. He is best known for his work in the area of genocide studies. He is the founder and president of Genocide Watch,[1] the founder and director of the Cambodian Genocide Project,[2][3] and the Chair of the Alliance Against Genocide. From 2007 to 2009 he was the President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars.

He seems far more accomplished in the field of Genocide studies than you do.

The author of this doesn't deny that the steps are being fulfilled. His concern is whether we have a known plot.

And according to your recent comments a known plot is not required. Which is it?

Quote from: Rama Set
Nice propaganda. There is no law in France banning people from buying food or water. They are not allowed to enter malls. Some malls have groceries. Stop with the hysteria.

You don't think they could have made an exception when drafting that law? Those laws are illegal, regardless of the size of the store. It's not surprising that you side with the authoritarians and are here justifying limits on people's access to food and water and in implementing illegal laws.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-An-end-to-the-health-pass-in-shopping-centres

Quote
As of August 8, the Covid health pass has been required for entry to shopping centres larger than 20,000m2, and in those where the local prefecture has issued a decree requiring it.

Prefectures have the power to require the pass if the incidence rate (number of cases per 100,000 inhabitants) in the area has been higher than 200 for a week.

But now, several of these decrees have been challenged in court on the basis that they are not legally valid, with the departments of Yvelines, Essonne and Hauts-de-Seine (Ile-de-France) having now had the rule annulled in court.

The court found that the restrictions in question did “not allow for adequate access to enable customers without a pass to buy essential goods and services”.


Under the rules, all shopping centres must still permit people to enter without a health pass if they are buying essential items, or accessing a transport station that is located within the centre.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 23, 2021, 10:59:53 PM
You don't think they could have made an exception when drafting that law? Those laws are illegal, regardless of the size of the store. It's not surprising that you side with the authoritarians and justify implementing illegal laws.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-An-end-to-the-health-pass-in-shopping-centres

Quote
As of August 8, the Covid health pass has been required for entry to shopping centres larger than 20,000m2, and in those where the local prefecture has issued a decree requiring it.

Prefectures have the power to require the pass if the incidence rate (number of cases per 100,000 inhabitants) in the area has been higher than 200 for a week.

But now, several of these decrees have been challenged in court on the basis that they are not legally valid, with the departments of Yvelines, Essonne and Hauts-de-Seine (Ile-de-France) having now had the rule annulled in court.

The court found that the restrictions in question did “not allow for adequate access to enable customers without a pass to buy essential goods and services”.


Under the rules, all shopping centres must still permit people to enter without a health pass if they are buying essential items, or accessing a transport station that is located within the centre.

Tom, chill baby. You are so dead set on making enemies. If the laws were illegal, then it’s good they are repealed. I simply challenged your overly dramatic proclamation that people were being prevented from buying food or water in an effort to genocide the unvaccinated. It’s hilariously hyperbolic and it’s impossible to take you seriously because of it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 23, 2021, 11:16:47 PM
You don't think they could have made an exception when drafting that law? Those laws are illegal, regardless of the size of the store. It's not surprising that you side with the authoritarians and justify implementing illegal laws.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-An-end-to-the-health-pass-in-shopping-centres

Quote
As of August 8, the Covid health pass has been required for entry to shopping centres larger than 20,000m2, and in those where the local prefecture has issued a decree requiring it.

Prefectures have the power to require the pass if the incidence rate (number of cases per 100,000 inhabitants) in the area has been higher than 200 for a week.

But now, several of these decrees have been challenged in court on the basis that they are not legally valid, with the departments of Yvelines, Essonne and Hauts-de-Seine (Ile-de-France) having now had the rule annulled in court.

The court found that the restrictions in question did “not allow for adequate access to enable customers without a pass to buy essential goods and services”.


Under the rules, all shopping centres must still permit people to enter without a health pass if they are buying essential items, or accessing a transport station that is located within the centre.

Tom, chill baby. You are so dead set on making enemies. If the laws were illegal, then it’s good they are repealed. I simply challenged your overly dramatic proclamation that people were being prevented from buying food or water in an effort to genocide the unvaccinated. It’s hilariously hyperbolic and it’s impossible to take you seriously because of it.

That's why it's impossible to take him seriously??
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 23, 2021, 11:30:40 PM
Quote from: stack
He came up with the stages:

Gregory H. Stanton is the former Research Professor in Genocide Studies and Prevention at the George Mason University in Fairfax County, Virginia, United States. He is best known for his work in the area of genocide studies. He is the founder and president of Genocide Watch,[1] the founder and director of the Cambodian Genocide Project,[2][3] and the Chair of the Alliance Against Genocide. From 2007 to 2009 he was the President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars.

He seems far more accomplished in the field of Genocide studies than you do.

The author of this doesn't deny that the steps are being fulfilled. His concern is whether we have a known plot.

And according to your recent comments a known plot is not required. Which is it?

I don’t get this hang-up on the conspiracy business. Dr Stanton wrote, “In order for a genocide to develop there must a real conspiracy to commit acts of genocide. Henna Maria's "conspiracy" is entirely imaginary. It is a product of her anti-Vaxxer ideology.”

So what’s the issue here?

This seems to be his real concern:

To misuse the Ten Stages of Genocide model and claim it supports the false, unscientific ideology of the anti-Vaxxers is morally reprehensible. Pretending to be concerned about a non-existent genocide and its non-existent victims demonstrates complete disregard for the real victims of past and present genocides.

Additionally, you said:

Quote from: stack
Is the Alaska triage thing built on "Are you vaccinated or not"? Or is their triage built upon how bad off a patient is in their current state?

Maybe read the article. It's a response to Covid. If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.

You never answered the question. Where does the article say that?

Are you going to back up your claim? Or are you ok with it being known that you made that up?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 24, 2021, 12:00:01 AM
So what's the conspiracy? Big pharma wants to kill billions of its customers?

Governments in the developed world want to suicide their nation's in favour of the developing world which aren't getting the vaccines?

Governments want to kill off all the people that do what they are told in favour of leaving all the anarchists?

Like, what's the endgame here? What's the point?

If conspiracy theorists took just 2 seconds to try and see the logic of their conspiracy they'd know it doesn't add up
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 24, 2021, 12:21:03 AM
I don’t get this hang-up on the conspiracy business. Dr Stanton wrote, “In order for a genocide to develop there must a real conspiracy to commit acts of genocide. Henna Maria's "conspiracy" is entirely imaginary. It is a product of her anti-Vaxxer ideology.”

He does not deny that they appear to be fullfilled, but argues that she doesn't know that there is a "real conspiracy" in her analysis. It it supposed to be reassuring that the signs are there and the only thing stopping it is their publicly known intent?

Basically "Nah uh, we don't know what they intend for sure" ... is this even an argument against what she's claiming? I'm pretty sure that part of her argument is that they would not publicly reveal their intent if they had it. Pretty weak. A better argument against the assertion would have been to argue that the steps are not being fulfilled at all, considering that publicly known intent isn't part of the steps, and nor were genocides publicly known before they occurred in history or that they necessarily required long-term premeditation. Instead, the argument we get is a weaker 'you don't know for sure' variant.

It is concerning that the author's rebuttal on the apparent fulfillment of his rules is so weak on this and is not significantly contradicting the basis of the analysis by showing that the rules aren't being fulfilled.

Quote from: stack
You never answered the question. Where does the article say that?

Right here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/22/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/

(https://i.imgur.com/EKLRikU.png)

If the health-care provider thinks that vaccinated should be given life-saving treatments over the unvaccinated they are allowed to make that call and leave the unvaccinated to die.

The unvaccinated are also called out on that same page:

(https://i.imgur.com/RSSsK2C.png)

Already, if hospitals wanted to allow unvaccinated to die they are increasingly given the power to do so.

Quote from: Rama Set
Tom, chill baby. You are so dead set on making enemies. If the laws were illegal, then it’s good they are repealed. I simply challenged your overly dramatic proclamation that people were being prevented from buying food or water in an effort to genocide the unvaccinated. It’s hilariously hyperbolic and it’s impossible to take you seriously because of it.

The fact that they are attempting to pass and enforce illegal laws to limit access to goods and services shows their motivation quite clearly. It's certainly moving to be more and more draconian as time goes on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 24, 2021, 01:27:34 AM
I don’t get this hang-up on the conspiracy business. Dr Stanton wrote, “In order for a genocide to develop there must a real conspiracy to commit acts of genocide. Henna Maria's "conspiracy" is entirely imaginary. It is a product of her anti-Vaxxer ideology.”

He does not deny that they appear to be fullfilled, but argues that she doesn't know that there is a "real conspiracy" in her analysis. It it supposed to be reassuring that the signs are there and the only thing stopping it is their publicly known intent?

Basically "Nah uh, we don't know what they intend for sure" ... is this even an argument against what she's claiming? I'm pretty sure that part of her argument is that they would not publicly reveal their intent if they had it. Pretty weak. A better argument against the assertion would have been to argue that the steps are not being fulfilled at all, considering that publicly known intent isn't part of the steps, and nor were genocides publicly known before they occurred in history or that they necessarily required premeditation. Instead, the argument is a weaker 'you don't know for sure' variant.

You’ve completely lost the thread. All he is saying is that people conspire in order to fulfill a genocide and that there is no conspiracy, no collusion among a cabal to commit genocide utilizing the pandemic and/or vaccines. He’s directly responding to that women’s crazy claims that there is a conspiracy to do so.

I’m not sure why you are not getting this.

Quote from: stack
You never answered the question. Where does the article say that?

Right here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/22/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/

(https://i.imgur.com/EKLRikU.png)

If the health-care provider thinks that vaccinated should be given life-saving treatments over the unvaccinated they are allowed to make that call and leave the unvaccinated to die.

It literally doesn’t say anything like that. It simply says, “give healthcare providers the power to prioritize patients - largely based on their likelihood to survive.” Now how does that translate into your claim, “If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.”

I could just as easily say, If a doctor thinks that an unvaccinated person is at less risk than a vaccinated person he is free to let the vaccinated person die now. You are literally conjuring up a scenario like it’s the only one that exists.

If a Dr thinks a person is less likely to die than another person, triage will prioritize the less likely to die. No where does it say anything about vaccinated versus unvaccinated. You completely fabricated that. And triage applies to all patients, not just COVID patients. If they are short on ICU beds, 1 left, 2 heart attack patients come in, triage choices occur.

The unvaccinated are also called out on that same page:

(https://i.imgur.com/RSSsK2C.png)

Called out on the same “page”? That’s your argument? Because a mention of the word “unvaccinated” on a page? How, does “Hospitalizations, especially among the unvaccinated, have also climbed” translate into your claim?

Seems like you should focus on the word “hospitalizations” instead because they are admitting lots of unvaccinated people.

As an aside, has it occurred to you that maybe there really is a pandemic considering that two states are running out of resources to the point that they have to implement triage procedures? When was the last time that happened?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 24, 2021, 02:05:32 AM
You’ve completely lost the thread. All he is saying is that people conspire in order to fulfill a genocide and that there is no conspiracy, no collusion among a cabal to commit genocide utilizing the pandemic and/or vaccines. He’s directly responding to that women’s crazy claims that there is a conspiracy to do so.

Really, and how would this author possibly know? He argues that there is no collusion without providing any evidence either way.

"Here are my rules to identify a genocide guys"

"Nooooo, you can't use it that way, you need to have knowledge of their nefarious plot"

::)


Quote from: stack
It literally doesn’t say anything like that. It simply says, “give healthcare providers the power to prioritize patients - largely based on their likelihood to survive.” Now how does that translate into your claim, “If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.”

I could just as easily say, If a doctor thinks that an unvaccinated person is at less risk than a vaccinated person he is free to let the vaccinated person die now. You are literally conjuring up a scenario like it’s the only one that exists.

Actually, it does say that doctors are free to decide now. You just conceded that it's possible. Therefore my statement is correct. If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.

The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

If the doctors are anything like these ones they might:

https://www.king5.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/its-very-frustrating-seeing-unvaccinated-patients-virginia-mason-doctor-says/281-d06d9f21-330f-47d8-a05b-04aee517c714

(https://i.imgur.com/wN8zuGL.png)

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-08-17/vaccinated-covid-doctor-shot

(https://i.imgur.com/Cd5oF2B.png)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/18/doctors-caring-unvaccinated-covid-patients

(https://i.imgur.com/cMyXj9D.png)

https://globalnews.ca/news/8144159/unvaccinated-b-c-man-walk-in-clinic/

(https://i.imgur.com/sMH2VRv.png)

https://wbckfm.com/doctor-refuses-treat-patients-unvaccinated/

(https://i.imgur.com/w6MNwzH.png)

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/doctor-says-he-wont-see-unvaccinated-patients-reports-say

(https://i.imgur.com/osbJgxo.png)

https://www.dailybreeze.com/2021/09/10/difficult-to-be-compassionate-some-front-line-workers-frustrated-by-unvaccinated-patients/

(https://i.imgur.com/J1amJ8n.png)

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/if-covid-vaccine-refusers-are-turned-away-hospitals-doctor-offices-ncna1277475

(https://i.imgur.com/dS5kv5X.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 24, 2021, 04:01:06 AM
Wait...


Is Tom actually thinking standard emergency triage is a conspiracy?  Does he even know what Triage is?  Does he know what "limited resources" is?  Does he know this is exactly what we were trying to avoid with masks, quarentine, and social distancing?

Also, I thought this was a virus developed by China to kill people and weaken the US economy, not the US government going genocidal on people who don't get vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 24, 2021, 04:04:06 AM
It's not standard to deny medical care to people who haven't gotten a drug or vaccine because of some future risk they might possibly encounter. When has that ever happened?

I see that the commie sympathizers are now coming out to argue that people should die based on a future possibility.

From that last NBC article (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/if-covid-vaccine-refusers-are-turned-away-hospitals-doctor-offices-ncna1277475):

Quote
Thus, anger and frustration with people whose actions, even if they’re potentially provocative, don’t themselves prevent a doctor from providing effective treatment in a safe environment don’t make refusing services ethical.

But when actions that cause anger and frustration do interfere with doctors’ ability to meet their obligations to provide safe and effective treatment, refusing services can be ethical.

Hilarious. Want to defend this one?

"The unvaccinated made me so mad that I couldn't do my job. So they should not be treated."

It says a director of Medical Ethics at the NYU School of Medicine wrote that:

Quote
By J. Russell Teagarden, member of the Working Group on Compassionate Use and Preapproval Access, and Arthur L. Caplan, founding director of the Division of Medical Ethics at the NYU School of Medicine
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 24, 2021, 04:07:09 AM
You’ve completely lost the thread. All he is saying is that people conspire in order to fulfill a genocide and that there is no conspiracy, no collusion among a cabal to commit genocide utilizing the pandemic and/or vaccines. He’s directly responding to that women’s crazy claims that there is a conspiracy to do so.

Really, and how would this author possibly know? He argues that there is no collusion without providing any evidence either way.

"Here are my rules to identify a genocide guys"

"Nooooo, you can't use it that way, you need to have knowledge of their nefarious plot"

::)

What do you mean how would he know? Know what? How would the crazy person he was specifically writing about know there is a global conspiracy behind COVID?
You have really lost the thread now.


Quote from: stack
It literally doesn’t say anything like that. It simply says, “give healthcare providers the power to prioritize patients - largely based on their likelihood to survive.” Now how does that translate into your claim, “If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.”

I could just as easily say, If a doctor thinks that an unvaccinated person is at less risk than a vaccinated person he is free to let the vaccinated person die now. You are literally conjuring up a scenario like it’s the only one that exists.

Actually, it does say that doctors are free to decide now. You just conceded that it's possible. Therefore my statement is correct. If a doctor thinks that a vaccinated person is at less risk than an unvaccinated person he is free to let the unvaccinated person die now.

The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status?

If the doctors are anything like these ones they might:

“If”? Nice speculation. Not very becoming.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 24, 2021, 04:13:16 AM
Unvaccinated people on a ventelator have a much lower chance of survival than other patients.  When resources are limited, you triage the patient most likely to survive.  This is triage 101.
So if you have two patients, one with covid but no vaccine (hence why they're there) and one with stage 4 lung cancer, Covid person wins.
If its lung damage from a chemical burn, chemical burn person wins.

But then, Tom probably thinks it should be first come, first serve.  First to need s ventelator gets a ventelator until they don't need it anymore.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 24, 2021, 04:40:05 AM
Quote from: stack
What do you mean how would he know? Know what? How would the crazy person he was specifically writing about know there is a global conspiracy behind COVID?

The woman is using the author's own celebrated and accepted rules to identify a potential genocide for one. She puts it forward as evidence. The author then berates her and states that there is no conspiracy and that she's crazy and provides zero evidence in either direction. Looks like only one person provided any amount of evidence in that.

Quote from: stack
Quote
The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status?

You already conceded that the rule change gave them the power to do that. It's possible, so I am correct. They have the power to do that.

Quote from: stack
“If”? Nice speculation. Not very becoming.

Not very intelligent on your end. It is a problem "if" they do that. And apparently a number of doctors out there wouldn't feel too bad about doing it. Usually you want your state health laws to limit bad things people want to do, not allow them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 24, 2021, 05:31:42 AM
I see that the commie sympathizers are now coming out to argue that people should die based on a future possibility.

That's because people like you are a net negative to society and no one gives an F if you die.

You have your choice. Not societies problem if your brain is so retarded it can't critically think.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 24, 2021, 06:42:35 AM
Quote from: stack
What do you mean how would he know? Know what? How would the crazy person he was specifically writing about know there is a global conspiracy behind COVID?

The woman is using the author's own celebrated and accepted rules to identify a potential genocide for one. She puts it forward as evidence.

What evidence did she give that the pandemic actually fits the stages of genocide? Just pointing at someone else's work and yelling, "SEE!" doesn't cut it.

I watched the video that made Dr. Stanton so incensed. So incensed because she used his scholarly work, especially around a subject like genocide, to manufacture some conspiracy around the pandemic and vaccines. She's got us at stage 9, extermination, not just piddly old stage 7. According to her, the vaccines will kill everyone and in the mean time we're being micro-chipped, and on and on and on. If you want to die on Ms Maria's version of genocide, feel free. She is batshit crazy.

The author then berates her and states that there is no conspiracy and that she's crazy and provides zero evidence in either direction. Looks like only one person provided any amount of evidence in that.

Like I said, she is batshit crazy. He's right. Watch her video in question. It's enlightening as to how whacked a person can get and still seem barely credible to a daft few. And like I said, what evidence did she provide? I couldn't find any in her rambling 25 minutes of twisted garbage.
At least the guy, Dr Stanton, wrote the stages and knows what he's talking about in regards to his own scholarly work. And they are not just the bullet points you have in your meme, there's a lot more to it. Maybe look it up.

TL;DR - What's her evidence?

Quote from: stack
Quote
The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status?

You already conceded that the rule change gave them the power to do that. It's possible, so I am correct. They have the power to do that.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status like you claim? Let's deal in facts, shall we?

Quote from: stack
“If”? Nice speculation. Not very becoming.

Not very intelligent on your end. It is a problem "if" they do that. And apparently a number of doctors out there wouldn't feel too bad about doing it. Usually you want your state health laws to limit bad things people want to do, not allow them.

I'm afraid your argument is woefully inept. You're basically saying, "Something is a problem if someone does something." Don't you see how inane that is. It's literally the weakest argument I've seen for anything in a long time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 24, 2021, 07:10:04 AM
What evidence did she give that the pandemic actually fits the stages of genocide? Just pointing at someone else's work and yelling, "SEE!" doesn't cut it.

I watched the video that made Dr. Stanton so incensed. So incensed because she used his scholarly work, especially around a subject like genocide, to manufacture some conspiracy around the pandemic and vaccines. She's got us at stage 9, extermination, not just piddly old stage 7. According to her, the vaccines will kill everyone and in the mean time we're being micro-chipped, and on and on and on. If you want to die on Ms Maria's version of genocide, feel free. She is batshit crazy.


Like I said, she is batshit crazy. He's right. Watch her video in question. It's enlightening as to how whacked a person can get and still seem barely credible to a daft few. And like I said, what evidence did she provide? I couldn't find any in her rambling 25 minutes of twisted garbage.
At least the guy, Dr Stanton, wrote the stages and knows what he's talking about in regards to his own scholarly work. And they are not just the bullet points you have in your meme, there's a lot more to it. Maybe look it up.

Wow, way to nullify your original argument. You suggested it was the same argument, so I trusted you. If you are now arguing that her argument is entirely different than presented then I guess your counterargument was moot from the beginning. It's not the same argument according to you, and therefore any response to it by any person is likewise invalid, as they are not discussing what you originally presented and implied. Now, according to you, the genocide author might be calling something else crazy that isn't directly related to the original image. You got yourself back to zero and wasted the time of all involved. Congratulations.

Quote
Quote from: stack
Quote
The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status?

You already conceded that the rule change gave them the power to do that. It's possible, so I am correct. They have the power to do that.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status like you claim? Let's deal in facts, shall we?

Where did I say that it did?

If the government writes a law that it is now legal to commit murder and I say that people can now legally murder each other with guns what is the point of asking where it says in the law that it's legal to murder with guns? The law allows them to do so and so the statement that people can now murder each other with guns is correct. Asking where it says in the law that it's legal to murder with guns is nonsense.

I'm afraid your argument is woefully inept. You're basically saying, "Something is a problem if someone does something." Don't you see how inane that is. It's literally the weakest argument I've seen for anything in a long time.

Obviously if murder was legal, people would have a problem with "someone does something" if that something is murdering them or their family.

Likewise, people have a problem with doctors discriminating against people for life-saving treatment, and don't take kindly if they or their family are discriminated against for their weight, smoking, their age, life choices, etc.

Trivializing that as "someone does something" is rather insane.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 24, 2021, 07:23:57 AM
Tom, can you even spell out what this conspiracies end game is? What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better? And how somehow, that this detail was missed by hundreds of thousands of scientists and professionals but somehow a numpty like you figured it all out?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 24, 2021, 08:19:55 AM
Tom, can you even spell out what this conspiracies end game is? What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better? And how somehow, that this detail was missed by hundreds of thousands of scientists and professionals but somehow a numpty like you figured it all out?

There is only one:
The most powerful people in the world want to exterminate humanity.  Including themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on September 24, 2021, 08:22:55 AM
What evidence did she give that the pandemic actually fits the stages of genocide? Just pointing at someone else's work and yelling, "SEE!" doesn't cut it.

I watched the video that made Dr. Stanton so incensed. So incensed because she used his scholarly work, especially around a subject like genocide, to manufacture some conspiracy around the pandemic and vaccines. She's got us at stage 9, extermination, not just piddly old stage 7. According to her, the vaccines will kill everyone and in the mean time we're being micro-chipped, and on and on and on. If you want to die on Ms Maria's version of genocide, feel free. She is batshit crazy.


Like I said, she is batshit crazy. He's right. Watch her video in question. It's enlightening as to how whacked a person can get and still seem barely credible to a daft few. And like I said, what evidence did she provide? I couldn't find any in her rambling 25 minutes of twisted garbage.
At least the guy, Dr Stanton, wrote the stages and knows what he's talking about in regards to his own scholarly work. And they are not just the bullet points you have in your meme, there's a lot more to it. Maybe look it up.

Wow, way to nullify your original argument. You suggested it was the same argument, so I trusted you. If you are now arguing that her argument is entirely different than presented then I guess your counterargument was moot from the beginning. It's not the same argument according to you, and therefore any response to it by any person is likewise invalid, as they are not discussing what you originally presented and implied. Now, according to you, the genocide author might be calling something else crazy that isn't directly related to the original image. You got yourself back to zero. Congratulations.

I have no idea what your ramble meant. "You presented argument, counterargument, then moot, back to argument, double moot..." You're sounding as crazy as Ms Maria.

Let me try and lay this out for you so you don't pop a vein:

- You posted a meme referencing the 10 Stages of Genocide and how people claim covid lockdowns, vaccines, the pandemic itself, ticks off the boxes
- Dr. Stanton is the guy who came up with and published those 10 Stages of Genocide back in 1996 or so. He is a recognized and lauded Genocide scholar.
- Presumably the meme all got started by this H Maria from Norway and of course spread like wildfire in various forms
- Dr. Stanton got pissed that Ms Maria was shoehorning her craptastic pandemic/vaccine conspiracy theories into his stages and trying to make a crap correlation - Using his work to somehow justify her delusions.

How you don't get this is, well, congratulatory unto itself.

Quote
Quote from: stack
Quote
The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status?

You already conceded that the rule change gave them the power to do that. It's possible, so I am correct. They have the power to do that.

Where does it say anything is based on vaccine status like you claim? Let's deal in facts, shall we?

Where did I say that it did?

Right about here:

The state gave the doctors the power to let people die based on their vaccination status, if they think there is a risk difference.

I see no where in any of the documentation/articles you presented or that I could find where that was said. You literally made that up.

If the government writes a law that it is now legal to commit murder and I say that people can now legally murder each other with guns what is the point of asking where it says in the law that it's legal to murder with guns? The law allows them to do so and so the statement that people can now murder each other with guns is correct. Asking where it says in the law that it's legal to murder with guns is nonsense.

I'm not sure what that was all about, but at least you're now admitting that what you claim isn't said anywhere. Good, now we're getting somewhere.

Obviously if murder was legal, people would have a problem with "someone does something" if that something is murdering them or their family.

When did murder become legal? What in the world are you talking about? What does legalized murder have to do with an emergency situation in two red states where they are running out of healthcare resources? You're making no sense.

Likewise, people have a problem with doctors discriminating against people for life-saving treatment, and don't take kindly if they or their family are discriminated against for their weight, smoking, their age, life choices, etc.

So emergency triage is equal to discrimination?

Why do you think Idaho and Alaska are in this situation where they are running out of resources and have to resort to triage? What would you suggest they do instead? In other words, how would you handle the situation?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 24, 2021, 10:01:06 AM
Interesting. Let me know when people have started preventing liberals and gays from buying food at supermarkets.

Nice propaganda. There is no law in France banning people from buying food or water. They are not allowed to enter malls. Some malls have groceries. Stop with the hysteria.
Once you've seen one shopping centre you've seen the mall...
(The mall, them all, see...oh if I have to explain it...)

Tom seems to have gone full Helen Lovejoy (won't someone please think of the unvaccinated).
Clearly we're not heading for a genocide
But if you strip away the trolling and hyperbole, I think there's a reasonable point about a 2 tier society which I have concerns about.
I mean, how much risk are the unvaccinated anyway? That's hard to quantify, but I would suggest it's not that high.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 24, 2021, 10:24:40 AM
What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better?
Answer= Shifter, Rama, LordDave, stack, xasop, Iceman, rooster, garygreen, et.al.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 24, 2021, 10:47:13 AM
Interesting. Let me know when people have started preventing liberals and gays from buying food at supermarkets.

Nice propaganda. There is no law in France banning people from buying food or water. They are not allowed to enter malls. Some malls have groceries. Stop with the hysteria.
Once you've seen one shopping centre you've seen the mall...
(The mall, them all, see...oh if I have to explain it...)

Tom seems to have gone full Helen Lovejoy (won't someone please think of the unvaccinated).
Clearly we're not heading for a genocide
But if you strip away the trolling and hyperbole, I think there's a reasonable point about a 2 tier society which I have concerns about.
I mean, how much risk are the unvaccinated anyway? That's hard to quantify, but I would suggest it's not that high.

YOU might have a reasonable point. Tom does not. Your desire to try and be inclusive to his vapid arguemwnts does no favors. If you want to make a point about “Tier 2” people then do so.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 24, 2021, 11:04:46 AM
YOU might have a reasonable point. Tom does not. Your desire to try and be inclusive to his vapid arguemwnts does no favors. If you want to make a point about “Tier 2” people then do so.
Well of course he doesn't. He's a troll who people really should stop feeding.
My desire was to try and steer us back to a reasonable discussion. And I already made my point.
I don't think the unvaccinated pose a significant risk to the public given that we now have a largely vaccinated population.
Ergo I don't think they should be denied access to malls or theatres or denied treatment (while agreeing about the way people are triaged, that's just basic medicine)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 24, 2021, 11:41:59 AM
YOU might have a reasonable point. Tom does not. Your desire to try and be inclusive to his vapid arguemwnts does no favors. If you want to make a point about “Tier 2” people then do so.
Well of course he doesn't. He's a troll who people really should stop feeding.
My desire was to try and steer us back to a reasonable discussion. And I already made my point.
I don't think the unvaccinated pose a significant risk to the public given that we now have a largely vaccinated population.
Ergo I don't think they should be denied access to malls or theatres or denied treatment (while agreeing about the way people are triaged, that's just basic medicine)

The unvaccinated lose a significant health risk to the unvaccinated, obviously, they also deserve protection especially since a portion of those unvaccinated are not making a choice, they are medically unable to vaccinate. People like Thork would say they should stay home, but I think the opposite is more reasonable, those who are making the choice not to vaccinate should bear the weight of that choice over those who can not choose to vaccinate.

Again, it’s worth pointing out that numerous vaccines are required to participate in society to different degrees and that this vaccine does not present any serious health risks
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 24, 2021, 01:06:23 PM
What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better?
Answer= Shifter, Rama, LordDave, stack, xasop, Iceman, rooster, garygreen, et.al.

Hey, careful puppet, it looks an awful lot like you're saying the vaccine is dangerous here, but supposedly that was never your argument!

You should probably just go back to just ignoring what people are saying and yelling NAZI!, it was a good fit for you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 24, 2021, 02:23:09 PM
The unvaccinated lose a significant health risk to the unvaccinated
I guess you meant "pose" but do they, though? Is it significant? We are talking about a virus with a CFR of 1% and that risk is skewed heavily towards older people and is also the CFR of an unvaccinated population. I agree people not taking the vaccination are stubborn idiots, but I don't believe they are a significant risk to anyone.

Quote
Again, it’s worth pointing out that numerous vaccines are required to participate in society to different degrees
Is that true? I don't know what it's like in the States. I was vaccinated against all kinds of things when I was a kid.
I can't remember ever being asked about it - I mean, maybe in the context of a medical appointment but to go to the shops or to the theatre or to any venue? Since when has living a day to day life required any vaccination or being asked to prove vaccination status.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on September 24, 2021, 02:39:44 PM
What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better?
Answer= Shifter, Rama, LordDave, stack, xasop, Iceman, rooster, garygreen, Roundy, et.al.

Hey, careful puppet, it looks an awful lot like you're saying the vaccine is dangerous here, but supposedly that was never your argument!
Thanks for reminding me I forgot to include you in the list.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on September 24, 2021, 03:23:17 PM
The unvaccinated lose a significant health risk to the unvaccinated
I guess you meant "pose" but do they, though? Is it significant? We are talking about a virus with a CFR of 1% and that risk is skewed heavily towards older people and is also the CFR of an unvaccinated population. I agree people not taking the vaccination are stubborn idiots, but I don't believe they are a significant risk to anyone.

What you believe is irrelevant. COVID is poised to become the leading cause of death in the US. CFR is only part of the equation. It’s also an easily spread virus. This is all preventable.

Quote
Quote
Again, it’s worth pointing out that numerous vaccines are required to participate in society to different degrees
Is that true? I don't know what it's like in the States. I was vaccinated against all kinds of things when I was a kid.
I can't remember ever being asked about it - I mean, maybe in the context of a medical appointment but to go to the shops or to the theatre or to any venue? Since when has living a day to day life required any vaccination or being asked to prove vaccination status.

My son would not be permitted to attend school without his mandatory vaccines, this is common throughout North America. The vaccine hesitant say nothing about that because it’s largely about a political issue for them and not a medical issue, which it should be. Also, no one is being prevented from living day to day life, that’s some Tom level dramatics. Unvaccinated people are simply having to make different arrangements based on their choice. Is it uncomfortable for them? Yes, but the solution is accessible, free and safe. As I pointed out above COVID is poised to become the leading cause of death in the US. It’s a significant risk that is eminently preventable and unless their constitutional rights are being impinged on, I consider it a reasonable cost of participating in society.

I will say, I’d prefer that these measures weren’t so heavy handed. It’s been a difficult year and a half for everyone. People are tired, stressed and fearful. But the carrot was tried, and balked at by large swathes of people who unfortunately are buying the propaganda from corrupt assholes who are no doubt, vaccinated themselves. So at this point, I would like to see populations get vaccinated up to the scientifically substantiated herd immunity level and then hopefully add this vaccine in to the suite of shots kids regularly get.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 24, 2021, 04:08:07 PM
What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better?
Answer= Shifter, Rama, LordDave, stack, xasop, Iceman, rooster, garygreen, et.al.

Sooo... Murdering billions, including myself, is going to make my life better?
But I'll definitely lose my job.  Have no hope of buying a house.  My wife will die too, leaving my kids orphans.
How will my life be better?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on September 24, 2021, 04:40:58 PM
What kind of person is behind it to think murdering billions of people will make their life better?
Answer= Shifter, Rama, LordDave, stack, xasop, Iceman, rooster, garygreen, Roundy, et.al.

Hey, careful puppet, it looks an awful lot like you're saying the vaccine is dangerous here, but supposedly that was never your argument!
Thanks for reminding me I forgot to include you in the list.

Thanks, I felt a bit insulted being left off.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on September 25, 2021, 08:18:43 AM
Remind you of anyone?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkn5Fk-yss
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 25, 2021, 08:01:20 PM
Hey Aussies:
Are the quarentine camps for anyone who shows a sniffle?  Are they being forced in, taking away their phones, and being forced to pay huge amounts of money?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stankan333 on September 25, 2021, 10:32:02 PM


Quote
Since when has living a day to day life required any vaccination or being asked to prove vaccination status.
Since there is a world wide pandemic that has killed millions of people and will kill millions more unless we take action.  I can just hear someone during the blitz on London saying "I'm going to keep the lights on in my house, I don't care about German bombers, you can't tell me what to do".  We are a species that is being attacked by another species; We must work as a unit it to defeat the attack.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 25, 2021, 10:43:31 PM
Hey Aussies:
Are the quarentine camps for anyone who shows a sniffle?  Are they being forced in, taking away their phones, and being forced to pay huge amounts of money?

The only quarantines I know that happen are from overseas arrivals or interstate. Phones are not taken away

The hotel stay is at your own expense

If you have a sniffle or symptoms already you are advised to get tested and stay at home. If you test positive then you are ordered to stay at home. Nothing is taken away from you
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 26, 2021, 06:35:45 AM
Hey Aussies:
Are the quarentine camps for anyone who shows a sniffle?  Are they being forced in, taking away their phones, and being forced to pay huge amounts of money?

The only quarantines I know that happen are from overseas arrivals or interstate. Phones are not taken away

The hotel stay is at your own expense

If you have a sniffle or symptoms already you are advised to get tested and stay at home. If you test positive then you are ordered to stay at home. Nothing is taken away from you

What about the camps they built?  Expense to person?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 26, 2021, 07:20:47 AM
Hey Aussies:
Are the quarentine camps for anyone who shows a sniffle?  Are they being forced in, taking away their phones, and being forced to pay huge amounts of money?

The only quarantines I know that happen are from overseas arrivals or interstate. Phones are not taken away

The hotel stay is at your own expense

If you have a sniffle or symptoms already you are advised to get tested and stay at home. If you test positive then you are ordered to stay at home. Nothing is taken away from you

What about the camps they built?  Expense to person?

Hotels were never built for quarantine purposes. There was too much transmission inside the hotels

The 'camps' are much better. Each unit being self contained. People able to have fresh air and a quarantine that does its job. I know I'd rather be in one of those than a weakly fortified hotel

It would be paid like the currently hotel system is.  Which is still expensive IMO. But that's still cheaper than the billions of dollars it would cost the state in an uncontrolled spread and death of Covid. I guess the cats already out of the bag in some states already. Some states are covid free and enjoying life as normal. Can't blame 'em for wanting to keep it that way


' camps' have such a negative connotation though. Let's use the gubberments feel good spin doctored word of 'village' instead :)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-09/mining-camp-designers-plan-covid-19-quarantine-hub-in-wa/100119364
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 26, 2021, 08:48:32 AM
Hey Aussies:
Are the quarentine camps for anyone who shows a sniffle?  Are they being forced in, taking away their phones, and being forced to pay huge amounts of money?

The only quarantines I know that happen are from overseas arrivals or interstate. Phones are not taken away

The hotel stay is at your own expense

If you have a sniffle or symptoms already you are advised to get tested and stay at home. If you test positive then you are ordered to stay at home. Nothing is taken away from you

What about the camps they built?  Expense to person?

Hotels were never built for quarantine purposes. There was too much transmission inside the hotels

The 'camps' are much better. Each unit being self contained. People able to have fresh air and a quarantine that does its job. I know I'd rather be in one of those than a weakly fortified hotel

It would be paid like the currently hotel system is.  Which is still expensive IMO. But that's still cheaper than the billions of dollars it would cost the state in an uncontrolled spread and death of Covid. I guess the cats already out of the bag in some states already. Some states are covid free and enjoying life as normal. Can't blame 'em for wanting to keep it that way


' camps' have such a negative connotation though. Let's use the gubberments feel good spin doctored word of 'village' instead :)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-09/mining-camp-designers-plan-covid-19-quarantine-hub-in-wa/100119364

Thanks.
My mom was convinced they were sending anyone in Austrailia who showed any symptoms to these camps and taking their phones and other communication devices then charging them.  All against their will.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 27, 2021, 03:59:47 AM

Thanks.
My mom was convinced they were sending anyone in Austrailia who showed any symptoms to these camps and taking their phones and other communication devices then charging them.  All against their will.
[/quote]

Best bet to get information on another country is to read their own news that's considered 'independent' (so no political 'sides')

For example I wouldnt learn about America listening to Cucker Tarlson. Certainly wouldn't want to get Australia news from him.... I've seen his attempts on trying to educate his audience about life in Australia lol

https://abc.net.au/news/

Free and as unbiased as it gets in this day and age
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on September 27, 2021, 11:54:58 AM
Best bet to get information on another country is to read their own news that's considered 'independent' (so no political 'sides')

For example I wouldnt learn about America listening to Cucker Tarlson. Certainly wouldn't want to get Australia news from him.... I've seen his attempts on trying to educate his audience about life in Australia lol

https://abc.net.au/news/

Free and as unbiased as it gets in this day and age
The ABC is the state broadcaster, which is as far from independent as you can get. I agree with you that it's a good and mostly unbiased source, but "independent" is not a good adjective.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on September 27, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Best bet to get information on another country is to read their own news that's considered 'independent' (so no political 'sides')

For example I wouldnt learn about America listening to Cucker Tarlson. Certainly wouldn't want to get Australia news from him.... I've seen his attempts on trying to educate his audience about life in Australia lol

https://abc.net.au/news/

Free and as unbiased as it gets in this day and age
The ABC is the state broadcaster, which is as far from independent as you can get. I agree with you that it's a good and mostly unbiased source, but "independent" is not a good adjective.

Ok, to clarify, it is editorially independent 'as ensured by the 1983 Act'. It is detached from government direction. Despite being funded and owned by 'the government', people who read/watch it can have some assurance there is no bias or government oversight / direction.

Nothing is perfect but reading that place for news, you can read with much better assurance what's really going on. Anything else is just trashy tabloids.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 01, 2021, 12:24:37 PM
My home state of ACT records 2 new covid deaths

2 men, aged in their 80s that were already receiving end-of-life palliative care when infected

Records will show 'death by covid'
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on October 01, 2021, 12:58:09 PM
My home state of ACT
territory*
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 01, 2021, 10:52:42 PM
My home state of ACT
territory*

Lol yeah
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 02, 2021, 08:46:20 PM
Prior mRNA vaccine efficacy shown to be for shit (evidence indicating intravenous solution to be better) and now this. The CDC, WHO, NIH, stating NOT to follow Pfizer and Moderna protocol when administering the vaccine:
https://youtu.be/nw08zWJQ2m8
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 02, 2021, 10:03:47 PM
Why do anti-vaxxers always post YouTube videos?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 02, 2021, 10:20:36 PM
Why do anti-vaxxers always post YouTube videos?
Who's an anti-vaxxer?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 02, 2021, 10:43:34 PM
Why do anti-vaxxers always post YouTube videos?
Who's an anti-vaxxer?

An Anti-Vaxxer is any person who opposes vaccination or laws mandating vaccination. Based on their previous comments opposing mandatory vaccination, both Roundy and AllAroundTheWorld are Anti-Vaxxers who post on this forum.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

(https://i.imgur.com/3t6q88u.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 02, 2021, 10:47:13 PM
Why do anti-vaxxers always post YouTube videos?
Who's an anti-vaxxer?

Any person who opposes vaccination or laws mandating vaccination. Based on their previous comments opposing mandatory vaccination, both Roundy and AllAroundTheWorld are Anti-Vaxxers who post on this forum.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

(https://i.imgur.com/3t6q88u.png)
I don't oppose laws concerning vaccination or vaccines.

Seems Rama is posting more hypocritical crap as usual.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 02, 2021, 11:23:56 PM
Whether you're vaccinated or not, you're gonna get the virus. Fauci admits there is no good answer as to why people with prior infection need the jab:
https://youtu.be/qnMjFy0OAjM
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on October 03, 2021, 02:25:29 AM
some quality trollbait, right here

Nice try, Tom.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 03, 2021, 02:48:16 PM
Whether you're vaccinated or not, you're gonna get the virus. Fauci admits there is no good answer as to why people with prior infection need the jab:

It's the same question for you and Tom over and over with no good answer. How fucked up would the world around you have to get before you would cooperate with and enforce public measures to curtail the spread of a threat? Aren't you really saying that nothing would ever make you submit to the socialist horror and subjugation of wearing a mask?

Generally, some have suggested enacting mandates based on local health care infrastructure capacity getting over run by a certain percent. Others (nobody round here) suggest mandates be enacted upon double digit mortality rates.

Just tell us, "I'll wear a mask when you put it on my cold dead body."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on October 03, 2021, 05:34:44 PM
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/meet-molnupiravir-mercks-thor-inspired-pill-that-hammers-covid/

Tom bishop, what's your opinion of this? I'm genuinely curious as to what an antivaxxer thinks of this new treatment.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 03, 2021, 07:17:00 PM
Whether you're vaccinated or not, you're gonna get the virus. Fauci admits there is no good answer as to why people with prior infection need the jab:

It's the same question for you and Tom over and over with no good answer. How fucked up would the world around you have to get before you would cooperate with and enforce public measures to curtail the spread of a threat? Aren't you really saying that nothing would ever make you submit to the socialist horror and subjugation of wearing a mask?

Generally, some have suggested enacting mandates based on local health care infrastructure capacity getting over run by a certain percent. Others (nobody round here) suggest mandates be enacted upon double digit mortality rates.

Just tell us, "I'll wear a mask when you put it on my cold dead body."
I'll wear a mask when manufacturers state on the packaging that wearing the mask is an effective measure in prevention and transmission of the virus.

All of your BS, and make no mistake for it's a HUGE amount, is worthless.

Name one expert that says we can vaccinate our way out of a pandemic.

Otherwise, all of your provisions here in this forum are as useful as a braying jackass.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 03, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/meet-molnupiravir-mercks-thor-inspired-pill-that-hammers-covid/

Tom bishop, what's your opinion of this? I'm genuinely curious as to what an antivaxxer thinks of this new treatment.
If you want an anti-vaxxer opinion,  you should probably ask Roundy or AATW.

I think it's terrific.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 03, 2021, 08:19:39 PM
Whether you're vaccinated or not, you're gonna get the virus. Fauci admits there is no good answer as to why people with prior infection need the jab:

It's the same question for you and Tom over and over with no good answer. How fucked up would the world around you have to get before you would cooperate with and enforce public measures to curtail the spread of a threat? Aren't you really saying that nothing would ever make you submit to the socialist horror and subjugation of wearing a mask?

Generally, some have suggested enacting mandates based on local health care infrastructure capacity getting over run by a certain percent. Others (nobody round here) suggest mandates be enacted upon double digit mortality rates.

Just tell us, "I'll wear a mask when you put it on my cold dead body."
I'll wear a mask when manufacturers state on the packaging that wearing the mask is an effective measure in prevention and transmission of the virus.

All of your BS, and make no mistake for it's a HUGE amount, is worthless.

Name one expert that says we can vaccinate our way out of a pandemic.

Otherwise, all of your provisions here in this forum are as useful as a braying jackass.

Wait wait wait...
You want it on the package?  That's it?!
Geeze... you're easy to please. 

I mean, if it says its an certain level of protection, do you really need it to say "Is 99% effective at preventing the transmission of viruses when used properly"?  Like a condom says?  Becasue if so... I'm sure we can find a box.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 03, 2021, 08:37:58 PM
Whether you're vaccinated or not, you're gonna get the virus. Fauci admits there is no good answer as to why people with prior infection need the jab:

It's the same question for you and Tom over and over with no good answer. How fucked up would the world around you have to get before you would cooperate with and enforce public measures to curtail the spread of a threat? Aren't you really saying that nothing would ever make you submit to the socialist horror and subjugation of wearing a mask?

Generally, some have suggested enacting mandates based on local health care infrastructure capacity getting over run by a certain percent. Others (nobody round here) suggest mandates be enacted upon double digit mortality rates.

Just tell us, "I'll wear a mask when you put it on my cold dead body."
I'll wear a mask when manufacturers state on the packaging that wearing the mask is an effective measure in prevention and transmission of the virus.

All of your BS, and make no mistake for it's a HUGE amount, is worthless.

Name one expert that says we can vaccinate our way out of a pandemic.

Otherwise, all of your provisions here in this forum are as useful as a braying jackass.

Wait wait wait...
You want it on the package?  That's it?!
Geeze... you're easy to please. 

I mean, if it says its an certain level of protection, do you really need it to say "Is 99% effective at preventing the transmission of viruses when used properly"?  Like a condom says?  Becasue if so... I'm sure we can find a box.
Okay, find one.

Make sure it is also designed for common use areas and non-sterile environments.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on October 03, 2021, 10:05:14 PM
I'll wear a mask when manufacturers state on the packaging that wearing the mask is an effective measure in prevention and transmission of the virus.
Do you also refuse to eat food that doesn't state on the packaging that it's effective at keeping you alive?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 03, 2021, 10:46:08 PM
I'll wear a mask when manufacturers state on the packaging that wearing the mask is an effective measure in prevention and transmission of the virus.

All of your BS, and make no mistake for it's a HUGE amount, is worthless.

Name one expert that says we can vaccinate our way out of a pandemic.

Otherwise, all of your provisions here in this forum are as useful as a braying jackass.

You don't get it. They would never print that on the package of a mask because they don't want you to know. You are a victim of the left wing's diabolical plot to convince conservatives that vaccines and masks don't work.

The electoral margins in the U.S are razor thin and we are now seeing higher casualties in 'red' states that reject mask mandates. The genius of the plan is that the conservatives don't even believe it's happening to them. In a system where a few thousand votes make a difference, ten thousand deaths across a few key states will turn the political fortunes.



 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2021, 12:05:31 AM
I'll wear a mask when manufacturers state on the packaging that wearing the mask is an effective measure in prevention and transmission of the virus.

All of your BS, and make no mistake for it's a HUGE amount, is worthless.

Name one expert that says we can vaccinate our way out of a pandemic.

Otherwise, all of your provisions here in this forum are as useful as a braying jackass.

You don't get it. They would never print that on the package of a mask because they don't want you to know. You are a victim of the left wing's diabolical plot to convince conservatives that vaccines and masks don't work.

The electoral margins in the U.S are razor thin and we are now seeing higher casualties in 'red' states that reject mask mandates. The genius of the plan is that the conservatives don't even believe it's happening to them. In a system where a few thousand votes make a difference, ten thousand deaths across a few key states will turn the political fortunes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/breitbart-conservatives-john-nolte-vaccine/620189/

Indeed.  But this bets the question is Tucker Carlson a useful idiot in our plot or is he secretly against conservatives?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 04, 2021, 01:10:11 AM
Indeed.  But this bets the question is Tucker Carlson a useful idiot in our plot or is he secretly against conservatives?

The original Republican plan was to whip the uneducated masses into an anti-Democrat frenzy by fighting the socialist agenda of masks and vaccines that would lead to the U.S. being over run by immigrants and homosexuals.

When the Republican plan started to work far better then they anticipated, the Democrats saw their opportunity and turned the tables by going with it. Now the Republicans are watching one of their main constituencies, ignorant hillbillies, being devastated by corona while the left trolls them harder into not wearing masks and not getting vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 04, 2021, 05:36:16 AM
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.39.2100822#html_fulltext

We present an investigation of a coronavirus disease (COVID-19) outbreak that started from one unidentified COVID-19 patient, with extensive, rapid nosocomial spread among vaccinated, including individuals wearing surgical masks.

"In an Israeli hospital outbreak, 96% vaccination rates (and universal masking) made no difference. And guess who had mild cases? Hint: not the vaccinated.

The paper, published in Eurosurveillance, a journal published by the European Centers for Disease Control, explains that the outbreak rapidly spread among both patients and staff of the hospital’s dialysis unit, the Covid-19 ward, and other wards. At the time, 238 out of 248 of exposed patients and staff had been fully vaccinated with Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine.

Again, the fact that 96 percent of the people in this population had been vaccinated - a level far above early estimates of the percentages required for herd immunity - apparently made no difference.

Further, all patients and staff were required to wear surgical masks when they were in the same room, and staff on the Covid-19 unit wore N95 masks and face shields.

Ultimately, 39 out of the 238 exposed vaccinated people (16 percent) were infected, along with 3 out of 10 unvaccinated people - a difference that doesn’t reach statistical significance because the unvaccinated group is too small."

As the authors explained:

“This communication… challenges the assumption that high universal vaccination rates will lead to herd immunity and prevent COVID-19 outbreaks… In the outbreak described here, 96.2% of the exposed population was vaccinated. Infection advanced rapidly (many cases became symptomatic within 2 days of exposure), and viral load was high.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2021, 05:50:17 AM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 04, 2021, 10:00:20 AM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
In one hospital in Israel, it was 96 percent.

Do yourself and everybody else a huge freaking favor and just stop posting. You cannot even read for christ's sake.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2021, 10:13:40 AM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
In one hospital in Israel, it was 96 percent.

Do yourself and everybody else a huge freaking favor and just stop posting. You cannot even read for christ's sake.

Ah, you're right.  Appologies.

Which makes the post less concerning.  We know it was the delta varient.  We know people can still get sick.
But 16% transmission rate in a hospital is not bad for it.  30% for unvaxxed people tho.  Thats pretty big, no?  Double.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 04, 2021, 10:27:45 AM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
In one hospital in Israel, it was 96 percent.

Do yourself and everybody else a huge freaking favor and just stop posting. You cannot even read for christ's sake.

Ah, you're right.  Appologies.

Which makes the post less concerning.  We know it was the delta varient.  We know people can still get sick.
But 16% transmission rate in a hospital is not bad for it.  30% for unvaxxed people tho.  Thats pretty big, no?  Double.

This report is all in all pretty small with no discussion of the medical history of the infected. Tough to draw any firm conclusions from it. But yeah, in the case that this is a statistically representative sample, 84% efficacy is not far from the reported number.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 04, 2021, 12:01:32 PM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
In one hospital in Israel, it was 96 percent.

Do yourself and everybody else a huge freaking favor and just stop posting. You cannot even read for christ's sake.

Ah, you're right.  Appologies.

Which makes the post less concerning.  We know it was the delta varient.  We know people can still get sick.
But 16% transmission rate in a hospital is not bad for it.  30% for unvaxxed people tho.  Thats pretty big, no?  Double.
Demonstrating your fauz apology to be a faux apology is typical.

What part of "a difference that doesn’t reach statistical significance because the unvaccinated group is too small," eludes you?

No difference in viral load either.

Makes one wonder why the huge push for making this vaccine mandatory.

If you get it, it doesn't prevent you from catching the disease or spreading the virus.

If you get the virus, you will maintain the same viral load.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 04, 2021, 12:38:01 PM
Question: are the antibodies produced by the immune system, in response to the cmRNA vaccines (or the adenovirus vaccines), specifically against Sars-CoV-2? The answer might surprise everyone.

The existence of isomer antibodies is now part of modern genetics and immunology:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12610298/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9217014/

Is the genetic code used for the cmRNA vaccines identical to the genome for Sars-CoV-2? The answer is no.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210111092707/https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/

The nucleobase URACIL (U) has been 100% replaced by the nucleoside PSEUDOURIDINE (Ψ) (it is also called Pseudouracil), an isomer of Uridine.

But Ψ has different chemical/biological properties than U.

"Given the fact that pseudouridylation endows the modified uridine with chemical properties that are distinct from those of all other known nucleotides, introducing Ψ(s) into an RNA will likely alter its function.

Therefore, Ψ has chemical properties that are distinct from that of uridine."

Then, the aminoacids produced by this genetic code (using Ψ) will have a different chirality/configuration, leading to proteins with a distinct chirality, as opposed to "normal" aminoacids obtained through the genetic code of Sars-CoV-2 with U (Uracil).

But then, the antibodies produced by the immune system will be isomeric as well.

That is, the antibodies manufactured by the immune system, in response to the cmRNA vaccines, will not be fabricated specifically for Sars-CoV-2.

An even more important question: what is going to happen should a pathogenic agent with a genetic code featuring Pseudouridine be released to cause another pandemic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2021, 03:21:22 PM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
In one hospital in Israel, it was 96 percent.

Do yourself and everybody else a huge freaking favor and just stop posting. You cannot even read for christ's sake.

Ah, you're right.  Appologies.

Which makes the post less concerning.  We know it was the delta varient.  We know people can still get sick.
But 16% transmission rate in a hospital is not bad for it.  30% for unvaxxed people tho.  Thats pretty big, no?  Double.
Demonstrating your fauz apology to be a faux apology is typical.

What part of "a difference that doesn’t reach statistical significance because the unvaccinated group is too small," eludes you?

No difference in viral load either.

Makes one wonder why the huge push for making this vaccine mandatory.

If you get it, it doesn't prevent you from catching the disease or spreading the virus.

If you get the virus, you will maintain the same viral load.
The answer is rather simple isn't it?
To reduce the risk of serious symptoms if you get it.  (PPE is to reduce the risk of getting it)

Lets say 2/100 people who get corona have to go to the hospital.  Of those 2, one requires a ventelator.  And half the time they die.
So you have a .5% chance of death. 
Your local hospital services 100,000 people(so 100k people live nearby) and has 10 beds for ventelator patients.

If 50% of people get sick, 25,000 people will be hospitalized.  12,500 will require ventelators.  6,250 will die.

Even if this happens over a year, that hospital is going to run out of ventelators.  People will die from lack of care.

But if we can reduce the hospitalization down 75% with the vaccine, we have a much better chance.  And thats the point.


To put it another way...

You sound like people who fought against seatbelts in the 70s.  Did they prevent all deaths?  No.  Did they cause issues like being trapped in your car?  Sometimes, yes.  Did it help reduce deaths?  Yes.  Add in crumple zones, air bags, and other safety features and deaths just keep dropping. 

And that is the point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 04, 2021, 03:47:59 PM
Israel never got to 96%.  Their highest was like 75% of eligable people. ( So anyone under 18 is not counted)
In one hospital in Israel, it was 96 percent.

Do yourself and everybody else a huge freaking favor and just stop posting. You cannot even read for christ's sake.

Ah, you're right.  Appologies.

Which makes the post less concerning.  We know it was the delta varient.  We know people can still get sick.
But 16% transmission rate in a hospital is not bad for it.  30% for unvaxxed people tho.  Thats pretty big, no?  Double.
Demonstrating your fauz apology to be a faux apology is typical.

What part of "a difference that doesn’t reach statistical significance because the unvaccinated group is too small," eludes you?

No difference in viral load either.

Makes one wonder why the huge push for making this vaccine mandatory.

If you get it, it doesn't prevent you from catching the disease or spreading the virus.

If you get the virus, you will maintain the same viral load.
The answer is rather simple isn't it?
To reduce the risk of serious symptoms if you get it.  (PPE is to reduce the risk of getting it)

Lets say 2/100 people who get corona have to go to the hospital.  Of those 2, one requires a ventelator.  And half the time they die.
So you have a .5% chance of death. 
Your local hospital services 100,000 people(so 100k people live nearby) and has 10 beds for ventelator patients.

If 50% of people get sick, 25,000 people will be hospitalized.  12,500 will require ventelators.  6,250 will die.

Even if this happens over a year, that hospital is going to run out of ventelators.  People will die from lack of care.

But if we can reduce the hospitalization down 75% with the vaccine, we have a much better chance.  And thats the point.


To put it another way...

You sound like people who fought against seatbelts in the 70s.  Did they prevent all deaths?  No.  Did they cause issues like being trapped in your car?  Sometimes, yes.  Did it help reduce deaths?  Yes.  Add in crumple zones, air bags, and other safety features and deaths just keep dropping. 

And that is the point.
Seatbelts did not reduce deaths.

That trendline has remained relatively steady over the past 70 years.

Deaths do not keep on dropping.

If you really wanted to reduce fatalities in any form of accident, helmets would be made mandatory regardless of the method of travel.

Wearing a mask does not reduce the chances of getting the virus.

That is the biggest line of bullshit ever uttered here on this forum.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on October 04, 2021, 05:03:53 PM
I'm positive you have the stats to support the statement that seatbelts did not reduce deaths
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 04, 2021, 05:11:13 PM
I'm positive you have the stats to support the statement that seatbelts did not reduce deaths
Look it up yourself.

Don't take my word for it.

The trendline for number of motor vehicle fatalities has remained relatively unchanged over the past 70 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2021, 05:19:04 PM
Seatbelts did not reduce deaths.

That trendline has remained relatively steady over the past 70 years.

I'm positive you have the stats to support the statement that seatbelts did not reduce deaths
Look it up yourself.

Don't take my word for it.

The trendline for number of motor vehicle fatalities has remained relatively unchanged over the past 70 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184607/deaths-by-motor-vehicle-related-injuries-in-the-us-since-1950/
No.
Also:
"From 1979 to 2005, the number of deaths per year decreased 14.97% while the number of deaths per capita decreased by 35.46%"

Its at this point that i see now that you are a waste of space on this forum.  If something as simple and universally agreed upon as seatbelts is beyond you, then what hope do you have at anything more complex like viruses and vaccines?  No... You can't be reasoned with.  Your mind is like a rock: impenetrable.  What is there can never be changed or removed.  You will never know anything more than what you knew before.  You will never change.   So off to ignore you go.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 04, 2021, 05:24:34 PM
Seatbelts did not reduce deaths.

That trendline has remained relatively steady over the past 70 years.

I'm positive you have the stats to support the statement that seatbelts did not reduce deaths
Look it up yourself.

Don't take my word for it.

The trendline for number of motor vehicle fatalities has remained relatively unchanged over the past 70 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184607/deaths-by-motor-vehicle-related-injuries-in-the-us-since-1950/
No.
Also:
"From 1979 to 2005, the number of deaths per year decreased 14.97% while the number of deaths per capita decreased by 35.46%"

Its at this point that i see now that you are a waste of space on this forum.  If something as simple and universally agreed upon as seatbelts is beyond you, then what hope do you have at anything more complex like viruses and vaccines?  No... You can't be reasoned with.  Your mind is like a rock: impenetrable.  What is there can never be changed or removed.  You will never know anything more than what you knew before.  You will never change.   So off to ignore you go.
Great, terrific.

What I stated is fact.

The trendline for fatalities has remained consistent over 70 years.

Comparing seatblets to vaccination is just one big heaping dung pile of reasoning that is as idiotic as can be.

Per capita death rate is not necessarily attributable to seatbelt use.

Could just as well be less drug and alcohol use behind the wheel.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 04, 2021, 08:16:20 PM
A little FYI, that the risk of myocarditis from COVID vaccines is likely much lower than initially thought:

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-preprint-myocarditiswithdrawn-idUSL1N2QX1WS?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: scomato on October 04, 2021, 11:30:43 PM
 

delete
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 05, 2021, 09:28:51 AM
I'm positive you have the stats to support the statement that seatbelts did not reduce deaths
Look it up yourself.

Don't take my word for it.

The trendline for number of motor vehicle fatalities has remained relatively unchanged over the past 70 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
Well, when you're right, you're right.
33,186 deaths in 1950, 36,56 in 2018.
Case closed!


...except of course you're ignoring that over that period car use went up 7 times and the population more than doubled.
And you're ignoring the big rise in deaths from 1950 to 1980 which has been going down ever since despite the continued increase in population and car usage. Are seatbelts solely responsible for that? No, cars have got safer in lot of other ways too with better design and testing. But it's undoubtably a factor

I can't tell if you're just being dishonest here or are terrible at analysing data.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 05, 2021, 10:34:16 AM
The isomer antibodies manufactured by the immune system for the cmRNA vaccines are transgenerational antibodies. That is, the body is reacting to a pathogenic agent/antigen which was genetically coded with Pseudouridine, which was active in the past (official chronology of history, a few thousand years, new radical chronology of history, a few hundred years), having caused a worldwide pandemic.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/the-toxins-that-affected-your-great-grandparents-could-be-in-your-genes-180947644/

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.21.445201v1.full

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/mab.2020.0029

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7291596/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268686106_Long_Antibody_Persistence_and_Transgenerational_Transfer_of_Immunity_in_a_Long-Lived_Vertebrate

https://clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13148-020-00946-x

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(18)31058-3/pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4024302/ +

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8162332/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03640-y

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29664574/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283268866_EPIGENETICS_THE_TRANSGENERATIONAL_TRANSMISSION_OF_ANCESTRAL_TRAUMA_EXPERIENCES_AND_BEHAVIORS-_AS_SEEN_IN_SYSTEMIC_FAMILY_CONSTELLATIONS

http://argos.vu/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/the-science-delusion-rupert-sheldrake.pdf

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 05, 2021, 11:56:02 AM
Lethal antibodies: REGN10987 and B38

https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-612103/v2_covered.pdf?c=1623875739

Pathogenic antibodies induced by spike proteins of
COVID-19 and SARS-CoV viruses

https://web.archive.org/web/20210901043025/https://www.theepochtimes.com/why-is-covid-so-severe_3970589.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20210901062152/https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00149-1 (rogue antibodies)

However, the immune system will also produce isomeric REGN10987 and B38 antibodies in response to the cmRNA vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 05, 2021, 11:57:05 AM
I'm positive you have the stats to support the statement that seatbelts did not reduce deaths
Look it up yourself.

Don't take my word for it.

The trendline for number of motor vehicle fatalities has remained relatively unchanged over the past 70 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
Well, when you're right, you're right.
33,186 deaths in 1950, 36,56 in 2018.
Case closed!


...except of course you're ignoring that over that period car use went up 7 times and the population more than doubled.
And you're ignoring the big rise in deaths from 1950 to 1980 which has been going down ever since despite the continued increase in population and car usage. Are seatbelts solely responsible for that? No, cars have got safer in lot of other ways too with better design and testing. But it's undoubtably a factor

I can't tell if you're just being dishonest here or are terrible at analysing data.
I ignored nothing and was dishonest about nothing.

You, like the other, offer up some idiotic comparison between the legislated use of seatbelts and dictatorial mandates concerning medical treatment, as if it is somehow relevant.

It isn't somehow relevant, never will be somehow relevant, and I gave it the non-relevant treatment it deserved.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 05, 2021, 11:58:17 AM
Lethal antibodies: REGN10987 and B38

https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-612103/v2_covered.pdf?c=1623875739

Pathogenic antibodies induced by spike proteins of
COVID-19 and SARS-CoV viruses

https://web.archive.org/web/20210901043025/https://www.theepochtimes.com/why-is-covid-so-severe_3970589.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20210901062152/https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00149-1 (rogue antibodies)

However, the immune system will also produce isomeric REGN10987 and B38 antibodies in response to the cmRNA vaccines.
Define "cmRNA," please.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 05, 2021, 12:57:48 PM
The two leading "mRNA" vaccines are cmRNA vaccines, and not mRNA vaccines.

Definition of cmRNA:

"cmRNA is mRNA that has been modified through the substitution of chemically modified bases for normal bases, such as pseudouridine for uridine."

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/mrs-advances/article/inhibition-of-bmp9-induced-bone-formation-by-salicylicacid-polymer-capping/A00A53BFC882032EBAFB859D995E4F2A/share/d9c2d7b18795cd0d4808c70566268f953409e1e8

https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/sctm.18-0259

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 05, 2021, 04:40:46 PM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5699546/

Antibodies specific for nucleic acid modifications

Here, we review the challenges and developments when generating and validating antibodies targeting modified nucleotides.

https://science.gsfc.nasa.gov/sed/content/uploadFiles/publication_files/Dworkin1997.pdf

One of the best papers on the origins of pseudouridine. What is the origin of pseudouridine? A worldwide magnetic reversal? Was part of the genetic code of the fruit of the tree of knowledge/awareness?

Hachimoji DNA/RNA

https://gizmodo.com/freaky-eight-letter-dna-could-be-the-stuff-aliens-are-m-1832823430

https://physicsworld.com/a/hachimoji-dna-doubles-the-genetic-code/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7549732/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413494/

The world is slowly being pushed into accepting an exobiological solution for the sars-cov-2/mers-cov-2 pandemics (Spartan Virus scenario).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 05, 2021, 05:05:32 PM
I certainly concur with the relating of the snake and the tree of knowledge allegory.

That is, after all, where we derived the rod of Asclepius.

Also a depiction of DNA.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 05, 2021, 08:12:53 PM
The two leading "mRNA" vaccines are cmRNA vaccines, and not mRNA vaccines.

Definition of cmRNA:

"cmRNA is mRNA that has been modified through the substitution of chemically modified bases for normal bases, such as pseudouridine for uridine."

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/mrs-advances/article/inhibition-of-bmp9-induced-bone-formation-by-salicylicacid-polymer-capping/A00A53BFC882032EBAFB859D995E4F2A/share/d9c2d7b18795cd0d4808c70566268f953409e1e8

https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/sctm.18-0259

From reading through the above papers, it looks like cmRNA and mRNA are distinctly different things. cmRNA has been tested mostly in bone and heart regeneration. I can't find any mention anywhere referencing cmRNA being utilized in vaccine production.

So what's the big deal with cmRNA as it seems somewhat irrelevant to the topic at hand?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 08:28:40 AM
mRNA has URACIL in its composition.

cmRNA (chemically modified mRNA) has PSEUDOURIDINE included in the genetic code.

The definition used in genetics is very clear:

"cmRNA is mRNA that has been modified through the substitution of chemically modified bases for normal bases, such as pseudouridine for uridine."

The Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines are cmRNA vaccines, not mRNA vaccines. Uracil has been replaced 100% with Pseudouridine. This catastrophic modification was made by a most incompetent chemist (K. Kariko) in 2008, who paid no attention to the stereochemistry (chirality/isomeric properties) of the entire operation. She had no knowledge of the legacy of the most important chemist of all time, Linus Pauling (Nobel prize winner), who stated that the chirality of the molecules represents the most important aspect of chemistry. It's one thing to perform such an experiment in some laboratory, and something else to inject Pseudouridine into the bodies of billions of people with no genotoxicity studies.

https://www.francesoir.fr/opinions-tribunes/le-sars-cov2-accelererait-lage-biologique

It is therefore surprising that none of the regulatory authorities in charge of evaluating MA application files for these vaccines (FDA and EMA in particular), knowing the sensitivity of telomeres and DNA to oxidative stress, did not request a toxicity study on the genes (genotoxicity).

Extract from the EMA report on Comirnaty (Pfizer vaccine): "Genotoxicity: No genotoxicity studies were provided. This is acceptable because the components present in the vaccine formulation are lipids and RNA which should not have genotoxic potential (EMA, 2021) ”.

From a scientific and safety point of view, this can be seen as irresponsible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 06, 2021, 10:04:43 AM
Without having to wade through too much text... Are you saying that the vaccine alters our DNA to create a toxic body and we'll all die from our own antibodies?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 10:46:05 AM
Certainly the sars-cov-2 pathogenic agent can alter the DNA:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118

Reverse-transcribed SARS-CoV-2 RNA can integrate into the genome of cultured human cells and can be expressed in patient-derived tissues

The main issue is this: the genetic code for the cmRNA vaccines is completely different than that of the genome for sars-cov-2. Uracil has been replaced 100% with Pseudouridine (different chirality, chemical/biological functions).

(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/MyHome%20Article%20Library/332289/332289_Thumb_400.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/qksrKgr/tileshop.jpg)

Where is the genotoxicity study for this radical modification?

"In sum, Ψ deposition may confer different molecular properties to the modified RNAs, which changes their fate or activity. While most recent studies are focused on Ψ modifications in mRNA, yet its role on mRNA is still unclear. Thus, further studies will be required to fully understand the molecular role of Ψ on mRNAs."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 06, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Here is a doctor speaking on the new antiviral and comparing it to ivermectin
https://youtu.be/hKa3EZqofNo
Here is the link to the paper, along with the abstract:
https://austinpublishinggroup.com/pharmacology-therapeutics/fulltext/ajpt-v9-id1149.pdf
Abstract - The pharmacology of anti-SARS-CoV-2 drugs, Molnupiravir (M) and repurposed Ivermectin (IV) were compared. The IC50 for the inhibition of viral replication were 0.3µM for M and 2.8µM for IV. Both drugs have good oral absorption, with M achieving peak plasma concentrations by 2 hours and IV by 5 hours. The plasma half life were 7 hours for M and 81-91 hours for IV. M inhibits viral replication inducing viral mutagenesis in RdRp, causing viral error catastrophe and viral extinction. IV affects viral cell entry, nuclear transport and inhibits replication via RdRp. IV has additional effect to suppress cytokine production through STAT-3 inhibition. M is a more potent antiviral drug and IV has a longer residence in the body. Their effects on RdRp and cytokine inhibition are potentially complimentary for anti-COVID-19 activity. Both IV and M should be compared in randomized controlled clinical trials, and the possibility of their combination for anti-SARS-CoV-2 antiviral actions, explored further.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 02:04:31 PM
Molnupiravir is manufactured using isomers as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8437801/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/016747819390240E?via%3Dihub
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 06, 2021, 03:13:37 PM
Isomers?    What about tentacle creatures!

https://news.yahoo.com/gop-lawmaker-links-coronavirus-vaccine-044628728.html?_guc_consent_skip=1633497368

"Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines were examined under a microscope, which revealed a tentacled creature in each vial that “moves around, lifts itself up, and even seems to be self aware.”"

This is a Republican saying this and we know Republicans don't lie. They even have photographs of these tentacle creatures.

What does all this peer-reviewed science have to say about that?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 06, 2021, 03:49:07 PM
In real news :

Another video by a different doctor regarding molnupiravir results:

https://youtu.be/IsOPBVf5Wug

@sandokhan

Does this video depict an accurate, detailed description of this antiviral?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on October 06, 2021, 04:59:25 PM
Isomers?    What about tentacle creatures!

https://news.yahoo.com/gop-lawmaker-links-coronavirus-vaccine-044628728.html?_guc_consent_skip=1633497368

"Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines were examined under a microscope, which revealed a tentacled creature in each vial that “moves around, lifts itself up, and even seems to be self aware.”"

This is a Republican saying this and we know Republicans don't lie. They even have photographs of these tentacle creatures.

What does all this peer-reviewed science have to say about that?

I'm much more concerned about the presence of tachyons in the vaccine.  It seems obvious to me now that this is how the democrats stole the 2020 election.  Tachyon particles allowed a form of temporal shift vote counting where a portion of the vaccinated were able to use future votes for Joe Biden!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Is there anything which would have stopped covid-19 in its tracks? Yes there is: BCG with specific bacteriophages (for M. avium/M. tuberculosis) and solithromycin (amazingly this drug, a fourth generation macrolide, was not approved).

The video describes well how molnupiravir works (instead of "isomer" it uses the word "analog").

Everything comes down to the study of the chirality of the aminoacids which make up the proteins/antigens.



https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/GPMB_annualreport_2019.pdf (pg 10 of the pdf)

"The United Nations (including WHO) conducts at least two systemwide training and simulation exercises, including one for covering the deliberate release of a lethal respiratory pathogen."

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/

“While they were working on SARS-related coronavirus, they were carrying out a parallel project at the same time on MERS-related coronavirus”, referring to the virus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187603411830114X

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7110697/

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.637.4817&rep=rep1&type=pdf

https://www.academia.edu/42205426/Questions_raised_by_the_new_coronavirus

Mers-CoV-2 = Sars-CoV-3 = H. influenzae

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 05:06:03 PM

I'm much more concerned about the presence of tachyons in the vaccine.

You should be much more concerned with your catastrophic tenure as a mod (together with boydster and spacecowgirl). The three of you have destroyed the flat earth society. Cunningly set up by JD. Imagine this: to put rabid, fanatical REs as mods (of all possible things) on a FE forum. What other possible outcome could be expected other than the complete destruction of that forum?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 06, 2021, 05:15:04 PM
Certainly the sars-cov-2 pathogenic agent can alter the DNA:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118

Reverse-transcribed SARS-CoV-2 RNA can integrate into the genome of cultured human cells and can be expressed in patient-derived tissues

The main issue is this: the genetic code for the cmRNA vaccines is completely different than that of the genome for sars-cov-2. Uracil has been replaced 100% with Pseudouridine (different chirality, chemical/biological functions).

(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/MyHome%20Article%20Library/332289/332289_Thumb_400.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/qksrKgr/tileshop.jpg)

Where is the genotoxicity study for this radical modification?

"In sum, Ψ deposition may confer different molecular properties to the modified RNAs, which changes their fate or activity. While most recent studies are focused on Ψ modifications in mRNA, yet its role on mRNA is still unclear. Thus, further studies will be required to fully understand the molecular role of Ψ on mRNAs."

Again, when am I supposed to die?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
You are supposed to live a long and prosperous life (vaccine or no vaccine).

My concerns: the Vero e6 cells used in adenovirus vaccines, the effect of a magnetic reversal on the prion structure of the S1 domain, M. influenzae from the meteor showers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 06, 2021, 05:38:45 PM
You are supposed to live a long and prosperous life (vaccine or no vaccine).

My concerns: the Vero e6 cells used in adenovirus vaccines, the effect of a magnetic reversal on the prion structure of the S1 domain, M. influenzae from the meteor showers.

So meteor showers are going to kill us? Why hasn't this happened already?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 06, 2021, 06:09:42 PM
My concerns: the Vero e6 cells used in adenovirus vaccines, the effect of a magnetic reversal on the prion structure of the S1 domain, M. influenzae from the meteor showers.
None of fhat made sense.
The magnetic structure of a protoene can't be reversed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 06, 2021, 06:46:56 PM
It is the sheer volume/amount of bacteria which now is able to reach our atmosphere (end of a world age), as compared to 1915-1918, 2009, 2011. The elites knew that M. avium would come down in huge quantities from the 2019 Taurids meteor showers (M. avium + Mycoplasma pneumoniae). At the end of a world age, the dome can no longer function as a 100% barrier against the cometary dust of comet Encke (also called Nibiru, Typhon, as it once was the satellite of Mercury).

Believe or not, it can be reversed. Scientists have discovered an off/on switch in the so-called junk DNA segment:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2299252#msg2299252

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2296026#msg2296026

https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800a/2021/a-z-rna-nanoswitch-enc.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/TmpgBbp/zrn.jpg
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: The Communist on October 06, 2021, 07:09:22 PM
Just some of the things that happen in the fascist, extreme right-wing, U.S.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 07, 2021, 04:11:37 AM
It is the sheer volume/amount of bacteria which now is able to reach our atmosphere (end of a world age), as compared to 1915-1918, 2009, 2011. The elites knew that M. avium would come down in huge quantities from the 2019 Taurids meteor showers (M. avium + Mycoplasma pneumoniae). At the end of a world age, the dome can no longer function as a 100% barrier against the cometary dust of comet Encke (also called Nibiru, Typhon, as it once was the satellite of Mercury).

Believe or not, it can be reversed. Scientists have discovered an off/on switch in the so-called junk DNA segment:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2299252#msg2299252

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2296026#msg2296026

https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800a/2021/a-z-rna-nanoswitch-enc.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/TmpgBbp/zrn.jpg

Junk dna and magnetic fields are not the same thing. FYI.
Also, not worried anout space bacteria since that would imply life outside the earth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 07, 2021, 12:19:15 PM
Isomers?    What about tentacle creatures!

https://news.yahoo.com/gop-lawmaker-links-coronavirus-vaccine-044628728.html?_guc_consent_skip=1633497368

"Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines were examined under a microscope, which revealed a tentacled creature in each vial that “moves around, lifts itself up, and even seems to be self aware.”"

http://stateofthenation.co/?p=88236

Let us remember that back in the february to april 2003 period, everyone thought that sars-cov was a new form of chlamydia pneumoniae.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1550436/

At the time, the official line in China was that atypical pneumonia, as it was then called, was caused by a Chlamydia bacterium, says Yang Ruifu, a soft-spoken microbiologist and a member of the team at the Academy of Military Medical Sciences (AMMS) that discovered the coronavirus.

In some few sections, coronavirus-like particles were concurrently seen. A coronavirus RNA- polymerase segment (440 bp) was amplified from the lung tissues of two cases of the SARS. After inoculated with materials from the lung samples, the similar Chlamydia-like particles were also found in the inoculated 293 cells. Since the Chlamydia-like agents visualized in both organs and cell cultures could not react with the genus specific antibodies against Chlamydia and monoclonal antibodies against C. pneumoniae and C. psittaci, the results might well be suggestive of a novel Chlamydia-like agent. Since the novel Chlamydia-like agent was found co-existing with a coronavirus-like agent in the dead cases of SARS, it looks most likely that both the agents play some roles in the disease.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12887816/


Sars-cov-2 spike proteins:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/370/6513/203/F1.large.jpg

Mycoplasma pneumoniae spike proteins:

https://i.ibb.co/QfCrnK9/mysp.jpg


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC421615/ (Spike Structure at the Interface between Gliding Mycoplasma mobile Cells)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6801766/ (Mycoplasma pneumoniae infection: role of a surface protein in the attachment organelle)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7358157/ (Concomitant infection with COVID-19 and Mycoplasma pneumoniae)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7280653/ (Outcomes of patients coinfected with COVID‐19 and Mycoplasma pneumoniae in the USA)

https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/acmi/10.1099/acmi.0.000212?crawler=true (Mycoplasma pneumoniae co-infection with SARS-CoV-2: A case report)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ijd.15090 (COVID-19 and Mycoplasma pneumoniae: SARS-CoV-2 false positive or coinfection?)

https://covid19.researcher.life/article/covid-19-coronavirus-is-infection-along-with-mycoplasma-or-other-bacteria-linked-to-progression-to-a-lethal-outcome/6fdb83d7-fdaf-4111-965a-cea494a28613

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s15010-020-01483-8 (Co-infection of SARS-CoV-2 with Chlamydia or Mycoplasma pneumoniae: a case series and review of the literature)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7437800/ (Human coronavirus OC43 infection associated pneumonia)

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.00685/full (Characterization of an Immunoglobulin Binding Protein (IbpM) From Mycoplasma pneumoniae)

https://www.pnas.org/content/112/16/5165 (Structure of CARDS toxin, a unique ADP-ribosylating and vacuolating cytotoxin from Mycoplasma pneumoniae)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6966865/ (Mycoplasma pneumoniae pneumonia associated thrombosis)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01314960 (Links and interactions between mycoplasmas and viruses: past confusions and present realities)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 07, 2021, 06:41:21 PM
Let us remember that back in the february to april 2003 period, everyone thought that sars-cov was a new form of chlamydia pneumoniae.

Let's fast-forward from 2003 to 2020:

Co-infection of SARS-CoV-2 with Chlamydia or Mycoplasma pneumoniae: a case series and review of the literature
Published online 2020 Jul 28
"co-infection with C. pneumoniae has been reported only in two cases in a large US study involving 5700 patients with COVID-19"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7386385/


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 07, 2021, 08:57:53 PM
That's my link.

Now, Sars-cov-2 has the following structure/characteristics:

- M. bovis

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7423587/

BlastP analysis showed high homology of the SARS-CoV-2 envelope protein with 12 consecutive amino acids of the protein LytR C, which is a consensus protein unique to Mycobacteria.

- Nipah virus

http://stateofthenation.co/?p=80788

- HIV

- Cobra genome

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jmv.25682

"The researchers used an analysis of the protein codes favored by the new cor.onavirus and compared it to the protein codes from cor.onaviruses found in different animal hosts, like birds, snakes, marmots, hedgehogs, manis, bats and humans. Surprisingly, they found that the protein codes in the 2019-nCoV are most similar to those used in snakes."

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 08, 2021, 01:01:55 AM
That's my link.

Now, Sars-cov-2 has the following structure/characteristics:

What does this have to do with chlamydia was found in only 2 out of 5700 Covid 19 patients?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 08, 2021, 05:19:38 AM
You haven't done your homework.

100% (7 out of 7) cases of "sars" with chlamydia pneumoniae (a new form):

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12887816/

The researchers used ultrathin section electron microscopy (EM). That's how you get the job done.

By contrast:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7177629/

They only used the PCR. A huge difference.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 08, 2021, 05:53:46 AM
You haven't done your homework.

100% (7 out of 7) cases of "sars" with chlamydia pneumoniae (a new form):

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12887816/

The researchers used ultrathin section electron microscopy (EM). That's how you get the job done.

By contrast:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7177629/

They only used the PCR. A huge difference.

A huge difference indeed.
From your article, “Method: Organ samples of 7 dead cases of SARS were collected”

I forgot. To test for chlamydia, according to you, the person needs to be dead. Then harvest their organs. Then look at the organ slices through a microscope. Makes sense. It’s not like anyone alive has ever tested positive for chlamydia.
And the 2 who tested positive for chlamydia out of 5700 Covid 19 patients 17 years after your study must have been dead as well.
It’s all coming together. You’ve really done your homework.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 08, 2021, 06:40:37 AM
The viral reservoirs are in the organs or deep tissue. How dumb, then, to be using nasal swabs to test for a pathogenic agent.

The PCR is not a diagnostic tool, it is a research method. The Chinese doctors did their job and detected the pathogenic agent deep inside the body: had they used nasal swabs, they would have found nothing at all.

Sars is caused by a new form of chlamydia pneumoniae (which accompany M. avium), and there are passenger viruses as well present.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on October 08, 2021, 12:10:35 PM
It's about time Sandokhan hijacked this thread with his rambling, overly verbose nonsense. It was starting to get a little stale.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: sandokhan on October 08, 2021, 12:32:39 PM
STFU.

You had no idea that Uracil (mRNA) had been substituted with Pseudouridine (cmRNA) before you read my messages. It isn't nonsense, it is called bibliography, which you most certainly are lacking at the present time.

What, then, makes sense to you? The current vaccination campaign? The fact that countries everywhere are wholly unprepared to deal with a new pandemic (let's call it Mers-Cov-2)? The fact that solithromycin was stopped from production, the only fourth generation macrolide which could have put an end to covid-19 in the spring of 2020?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2021, 05:52:36 PM
STFU.

You had no idea that Uracil (mRNA) had been substituted with Pseudouridine (cmRNA) before you read my messages. It isn't nonsense, it is called bibliography, which you most certainly are lacking at the present time.

What, then, makes sense to you? The current vaccination campaign? The fact that countries everywhere are wholly unprepared to deal with a new pandemic (let's call it Mers-Cov-2)? The fact that solithromycin was stopped from production, the only fourth generation macrolide which could have put an end to covid-19 in the spring of 2020?

A bibliography is a list of books or reference.  Nothing to do with viruses or vaccines.


Also, if a virus pathogen is concentrated in organs and deep tissue, spreading it should be very difficult since most people aren't comming into contact with your organs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 08, 2021, 06:43:31 PM
STFU.

You had no idea that Uracil (mRNA) had been substituted with Pseudouridine (cmRNA) before you read my messages. It isn't nonsense, it is called bibliography, which you most certainly are lacking at the present time.

What, then, makes sense to you? The current vaccination campaign? The fact that countries everywhere are wholly unprepared to deal with a new pandemic (let's call it Mers-Cov-2)? The fact that solithromycin was stopped from production, the only fourth generation macrolide which could have put an end to covid-19 in the spring of 2020?

A bibliography is a list of books or reference.  Nothing to do with viruses or vaccines.


Also, if a virus pathogen is concentrated in organs and deep tissue, spreading it should be very difficult since most people aren't comming into contact with your organs.
You have terrible reading and comprehension skills.

I mean that sincerely.

Plus, you have no clue regarding prevalent theories of how disease is actually spread.

If you took the time to actually do some research and perhaps hired someone to help guide you through it, you might learn something.

Your commentary in this thread is absolute trash.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 08, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
https://youtu.be/MULDV9Ya-Fo
Welcome to the hunt.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 08, 2021, 08:22:54 PM
Welcome to the hunt.

It makes for a funny bit, but to work in the NY medical community, the mandate is that you have to of had at least one jab by the deadline. So after the deadline, if anyone is unvaxxed, they can't work in that capacity, meaning replacements as well. And it's not just immediately calling in randomly non-trained troops:

Plan Includes Preparation of State of Emergency Declaration to Supplement Workforce Supply at Health Care Facilities

Would Enable Qualified Health Care Professionals Licensed in Other States or Countries, Recent Graduates, Retired and Formerly Practicing Health Care Professionals to Practice in New York

Other Options Include Deployment of Medically-Trained National Guard, Requesting Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs), Working with the Federal Government to Expedite Visa Requests for Medical Professionals


https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/preparation-monday-vaccination-deadline-governor-hochul-releases-comprehensive-plan-address

Fortunately:

Thousands of N.Y. Health Care Workers Get Vaccinated Ahead of Deadline
Though many hospital and nursing home employees remain unvaccinated, officials say worst-case staffing shortages seem less likely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/nyregion/vaccine-health-care-workers-mandate.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on October 09, 2021, 11:18:38 PM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2021, 11:29:46 PM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.

Lauren Southern? Sargon of Akkad? And the insidious choice, Bret Weinstein?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on October 10, 2021, 05:15:00 AM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.

Lauren Southern? Sargon of Akkad? And the insidious choice, Bret Weinstein?

Dore has something those others don't.  He's just repulsive on every level.  The sound of his voice, his ghoulish appearance.  I'm fairly certain he has an unpleasant stench about him too.  I imagine it's something oily and metallic. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 13, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.

Lauren Southern? Sargon of Akkad? And the insidious choice, Bret Weinstein?

Dore has something those others don't.  He's just repulsive on every level.  The sound of his voice, his ghoulish appearance.  I'm fairly certain he has an unpleasant stench about him too.  I imagine it's something oily and metallic.
I notice the only objection you have is the video was made by someone you find loathsome.

You have no objection to the facts in the video.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2021, 06:26:01 PM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.

Lauren Southern? Sargon of Akkad? And the insidious choice, Bret Weinstein?

Dore has something those others don't.  He's just repulsive on every level.  The sound of his voice, his ghoulish appearance.  I'm fairly certain he has an unpleasant stench about him too.  I imagine it's something oily and metallic.
I notice the only objection you have is the video was made by someone you find loathsome.

You have no objection to the facts in the video.

There are very few facts. Dore asserts for comedic effect that unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed healthcare workers, but no one said they are sending unvaxxed national guard. As was pointed out, thousands of healthcare workers were vaxxed ahead of the deadline and no crisis has unfolded because of this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 13, 2021, 06:47:44 PM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.

Lauren Southern? Sargon of Akkad? And the insidious choice, Bret Weinstein?

Dore has something those others don't.  He's just repulsive on every level.  The sound of his voice, his ghoulish appearance.  I'm fairly certain he has an unpleasant stench about him too.  I imagine it's something oily and metallic.
I notice the only objection you have is the video was made by someone you find loathsome.

You have no objection to the facts in the video.

There are very few facts. Dore asserts for comedic effect that unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed healthcare workers, but no one said they are sending unvaxxed national guard. As was pointed out, thousands of healthcare workers were vaxxed ahead of the deadline and no crisis has unfolded because of this.
It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

It is also a fact that healthcare professionals are being fired during a health emergency.

It is also a fact these healthcare staff were lauded as HEROES for providing care during the entirety of the prior 22 months.

It is also a fact you are part of the hypocrites that now cheer for their subjugation and submission of freedom-loving persons to an outright fascist power grab made by corrupt shitbags worldwide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2021, 06:52:11 PM
Good lord.  Jimmy Dore may be the most loathsome person on Youtube.

Lauren Southern? Sargon of Akkad? And the insidious choice, Bret Weinstein?

Dore has something those others don't.  He's just repulsive on every level.  The sound of his voice, his ghoulish appearance.  I'm fairly certain he has an unpleasant stench about him too.  I imagine it's something oily and metallic.
I notice the only objection you have is the video was made by someone you find loathsome.

You have no objection to the facts in the video.

There are very few facts. Dore asserts for comedic effect that unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed healthcare workers, but no one said they are sending unvaxxed national guard. As was pointed out, thousands of healthcare workers were vaxxed ahead of the deadline and no crisis has unfolded because of this.
It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

It's not.  It's a fact that there are unvaxxed national guard but there is no official policy that they will replace healthcare workers.

Quote
It is also a fact that healthcare professionals are being fired during a health emergency.

Yes.  They should know better.  Hospitals are the most common place for the virus to spread and therefore the most important place to have vaccinated people.

Quote
It is also a fact these healthcare staff were lauded as HEROES for providing care during the entirety of the prior 22 months.

The vast majority continue to be, as they did the intelligent thing and got vaccinated.

Quote
It is also a fact you are part of the hypocrites that now cheer for their subjugation and submission of freedom-loving persons to an outright fascist power grab made by corrupt shitbags worldwide.

lol no
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 13, 2021, 07:07:02 PM

Quote
It is also a fact that healthcare professionals are being fired during a health emergency.

Yes.  They should know better.  Hospitals are the most common place for the virus to spread and therefore the most important place to have vaccinated people.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Considering hospitals, out of all venues, have the most efficient air exchange systems of enclosed areas (other than submarines), we will take your claim here as prima facie evidence of your lack of ability to determine anything factual.

Quote
It is also a fact these healthcare staff were lauded as HEROES for providing care during the entirety of the prior 22 months.

The vast majority continue to be, as they did the intelligent thing and got vaccinated.
Appeal to numbers has nothing to do with it.

Natural immunity is a thing, plus religious objection a thing.

Quote
It is also a fact you are part of the hypocrites that now cheer for their subjugation and submission of freedom-loving persons to an outright fascist power grab made by corrupt shitbags worldwide.

lol no
Yeah, I got you pegged.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 13, 2021, 07:14:28 PM
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True. So what about this:

It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

Where's your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on October 13, 2021, 08:49:36 PM
Action80, saying someone else needs to back up his claims with evidence.  Ha ha ha... Hahahaha...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry. Thanks for the laugh, lackey.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2021, 02:59:48 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2021, 03:35:25 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 14, 2021, 05:09:01 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

Here's an interesting one. Rumor has it that the famous Biblical Flat Earther and anti-vaxxer Rob Skiba has passed away. He, as rumored, had covid, developed pneumonia, put on Remdesivir. After a few days he was taken off of Remdesivir, put on a ventilator and placed in a medically-induced coma.  He had been in a coma for the last 40 days. Had a heart attack and died. Again, all rumor.

If all of that is true, the question is whether his is a Covid death or not? More specifically, should it be counted in the Covid death count?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 14, 2021, 06:48:41 AM
Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases.
And every time you have “shown” that it has been patiently explained to you that this is exactly how it works with other diseases.
It’s common for multiple causes to be recorded. In a regular flu season you don’t get young healthy people dying - or it’s incredibly rare. Do you grumble every year that all these flu deaths are really old, ill people who would have died anyway? If they were ill anyway and flu helped kick them out the door then it’s perfectly legitimate to record flu as one of the causes of death even if it was only a contributing factor. A person often has other diseases which will kill them at some point and then they then catch Covid and die. It’s true to say that were it not for the other diseases Covid wouldn’t have killed them. It’s also true to say that Covid was a factor in them dying sooner than they would otherwise have.
These Covid deaths aren’t all people having motorcycle crashes, it’s mostly people who have other conditions and Covid is a factor in them dying sooner than those other conditions would have killed them. Just like in a regular flu season. The difference is that flu has a significantly lower CFR in all age groups than Covid, which is why the data on excess deaths over the last 18 months is so clear.

But you can keep pretending not to understand any of this if you must.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2021, 06:51:25 AM
Quote from: stack
Here's an interesting one. Rumor has it that the famous Biblical Flat Earther and anti-vaxxer Rob Skiba has passed away. He, as rumored, had covid, developed pneumonia, put on Remdesivir. After a few days he was taken off of Remdesivir, put on a ventilator and placed in a medically-induced coma.  He had been in a coma for the last 40 days. Had a heart attack and died. Again, all rumor.

If all of that is true, the question is whether his is a Covid death or not? More specifically, should it be counted in the Covid death count?

We would need to know all of his chronic or underlying conditions. People who are dying of underlying chronic conditions tend to get things like pneumonia at the end stage of their life.

Ie. - "Pneumonia is a leading cause of death among cancer patients (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cam4.240)"

But this has been typically classified as a secondary infection rather than the primary cause of death, and not reported with prominence on national mortality statistics. Obviously if someone was dying of cancer they would be prominently listed as a cancer death rather then pneumonia infection. It is only with the changed guidance for Covid-19 that all diagnosis of Covid within 30 or 60 days, even asymptomatic Covid-19, was to be elevated to a primary cause of death and listed prominently in mortality statistics even when the patient was clearly dying of cancer.

In all likelihood Rob Skiba probably had comorbities since in the "Covid deaths" there are an average of four comorbidities, with only about 5% or 6% of deaths which indicated Covid as the only cause according to the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

"For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death."

And every time you have “shown” that it has been patiently explained to you that this is exactly how it works with other diseases.

Incorrect. The methods were changed with COVID-19 guidance.

https://americanmind.org/salvo/a-covid-death-the-bureaucracy-decides/

(https://i.imgur.com/aSv77nV.png)

Author:

(https://i.imgur.com/hCebSwj.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 14, 2021, 07:53:17 AM
Congratulations on scouring the internet for a source which backs up what you want to believe and ignoring the actual crux of the argument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 14, 2021, 09:29:39 AM
I think we can all agree covid is going to get everyone eventually. So we all wait with baited breath of Toms upcoming comeuppance. He's probably too much of a prideful SOB to eat the humble pie and come here and say 'I got covid, pray for me please'. Just wait until he no longer posts. Then you can be pretty sure what's happened. And it will happen.

1 in 500 Americans already dead. Not just infected. Dead. God knows how many yanks have 'long covid' or will have long term consequences. A lot more than 1 in 500 that's for sure. And it hasn't even got you all yet.

Every new year all the anti vaxxer morons are taking a roll of the dice. Given almost all the dead or severely injured are now constrained to just the repugnitard muppets like Tom, I think them holding form to their antivaxxer BS stance is a good thing. Nothing but a net negative to society.

Imagine if you could make a virus that only targeted the right wing people...... Brilliant.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2021, 09:47:40 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

People dying with COVID outnumber those dying with heart disease, with cancer and with gunshot wounds. Better?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 14, 2021, 11:07:09 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

People dying with COVID outnumber those dying with heart disease, with cancer and with gunshot wounds. Better?
Are you claiming we should be attempting to prevent death?

Is that your goal?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 14, 2021, 11:08:59 AM
Preventing premature death sounds like a nice goal

Or maybe having peaceful deaths. Death by covid seems like a real prick
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 14, 2021, 11:15:10 AM
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True. So what about this:

It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

Where's your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim?
I have posted that evidence.

There is ZERO evidence any virus is more easily spread in a hospital.

You are just another conspiracy theorist cosigning for a conspiracy theorist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2021, 11:32:55 AM
I just wanna see what the rich NWO people will do once they realize they killed everyone who will serve them.  Especially since they will have no money or fresh supplies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2021, 11:35:42 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

People dying with COVID outnumber those dying with heart disease, with cancer and with gunshot wounds. Better?
Are you claiming we should be attempting to prevent death?

Is that your goal?

I don’t want anyone to die a premature, preventable death. Why do you ask?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True. So what about this:

It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

Where's your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim?
I have posted that evidence.

There is ZERO evidence any virus is more easily spread in a hospital.

You are just another conspiracy theorist cosigning for a conspiracy theorist.

“More easily spread” isn’t necessarily the best way to frame it, but hospitals definitely concentrate a lot of vulnerable people together. This paper states hospitals acquired infections are a serious risk: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7827479/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 14, 2021, 11:40:03 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

People dying with COVID outnumber those dying with heart disease, with cancer and with gunshot wounds. Better?
Are you claiming we should be attempting to prevent death?

Is that your goal?

I don’t want anyone to die a premature, preventable death. Why do you ask?
Why? How the hell do you know it was premature? How do you know it was preventable?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True. So what about this:

It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

Where's your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim?
I have posted that evidence.

There is ZERO evidence any virus is more easily spread in a hospital.

You are just another conspiracy theorist cosigning for a conspiracy theorist.

“More easily spread” isn’t necessarily the best way to frame it, but hospitals definitely concentrate a lot of vulnerable people together. This paper states hospitals acquired infections are a serious risk: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7827479/
That paper is bullshit science, with no control group.

Much like that mask bullshit you believe in.

You keep posting bs, and then either don't retract it or just laugh it off.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2021, 11:53:57 AM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

People dying with COVID outnumber those dying with heart disease, with cancer and with gunshot wounds. Better?
Are you claiming we should be attempting to prevent death?

Is that your goal?

I don’t want anyone to die a premature, preventable death. Why do you ask?
Why? How the hell do you know it was premature? How do you know it was preventable?

You clearly understand where I’m coming from, it’s why you blame others for your family’s deaths instead of shrugging your shoulders.

Quote
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True. So what about this:

It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

Where's your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim?
I have posted that evidence.

There is ZERO evidence any virus is more easily spread in a hospital.

You are just another conspiracy theorist cosigning for a conspiracy theorist.

“More easily spread” isn’t necessarily the best way to frame it, but hospitals definitely concentrate a lot of vulnerable people together. This paper states hospitals acquired infections are a serious risk: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7827479/
That paper is bullshit science, with no control group.

Much like that mask bullshit you believe in.

You keep posting bs, and then either don't retract it or just laugh it off.

Better evidence than a Jimmy Dore YouTube clip, to be sure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 14, 2021, 12:42:20 PM
COVID may not kill many young people but it killed more American’s than anything else last month:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/live-updates/covid-delta-surge/?id=80516253&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Yet you have been shown numerous times that they are counting people who died "with" Covid and not of Covid, unlike previous diseases. Your argument is completely illegitimate.

People dying with COVID outnumber those dying with heart disease, with cancer and with gunshot wounds. Better?
Are you claiming we should be attempting to prevent death?

Is that your goal?

I don’t want anyone to die a premature, preventable death. Why do you ask?
Why? How the hell do you know it was premature? How do you know it was preventable?

You clearly understand where I’m coming from, it’s why you blame others for your family’s deaths instead of shrugging your shoulders.
No doubt, I blame you and those who think like you, for the death of my brother-in-law and my sister.

Your support of this hoax plandemic and the government overreach in the handling of it, is despicable.

That is why I am labeling your claim that you somehow care for "early or avoidable death," as the bullshit that it clearly is.

You do not give two fuqs about humans dying at all.

Better evidence than a Jimmy Dore YouTube clip, to be sure. I admit my paper has no scientific justification for publication and is typical of the fuqued up cisgender societal thinking dominating today's milqtoast society.
FTFY
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 14, 2021, 01:42:49 PM
What happened to your brother-in-law and sister?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on October 14, 2021, 01:56:32 PM
What happened to your brother-in-law and sister?

Not much really. They died, of course, but so will you and me eventually so it's no big deal.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2021, 03:51:54 PM
What happened to your brother-in-law and sister?

They both had terminal illnesses but due to Corona, they couldn't see a doctor so died sooner.  Or something.

So he blames liberals for their deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 14, 2021, 05:53:05 PM
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True. So what about this:

It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers.

Where's your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim?
I have posted that evidence.

There is ZERO evidence any virus is more easily spread in a hospital.

You are just another conspiracy theorist cosigning for a conspiracy theorist.

What evidence did you post that says, "It is a fact unvaxxed national guard will replace unvaxxed health care workers."? Are you referring to the Jimmy Dore comedy bit as evidence? If so, that's hilarious. Not Jimmy Dore, you using him as evidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on October 15, 2021, 04:47:01 AM
lackey rant...

Take a week to cool off. Keep it in AR. Next one will probably be permanent.


Action80, saying someone else needs to back up his claims with evidence.  Ha ha ha... Hahahaha...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry. Thanks for the laugh, lackey.

Keep it in CN/AR. Warned.



Lastly, Rama, try not engaging with lackey if you are just going to report every reply he makes to you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2021, 03:14:25 PM
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/top-doctors-and-scientists-sue-the-fda-to-obtain-the-data-used-to-approve-pfizer-jab/

The data used to approve the vaccine was not publicly released and the FDA is actively fighting to keep it secret. Despicable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on October 16, 2021, 03:48:39 PM
While I agree that all the data should be made public, I cant get through that shite-ly written article.

"A group of highly educated doctors and medical scientists" - I suppose they would have to be highly educated, wouldnt they?

"they used to justify approving the experimental, abortion-tainted COVID-19 Pfizer jab." -  abortion tainted links to this story https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/babies-were-aborted-alive-placed-in-fridge-to-harvest-cell-lines-used-in-some-vaccines-researcher/ where the first sentence is about how their content has been banned from YouTube.

That article complains about "aborted babies" that seem to involve full hysterectomies - likely a medical emergency for the mother, where the fetus is placed into a refrigerator to protect it from contamination from any external sources.

Insinuation being that the Pfizer jab is a vaccine made from baby flesh that was forcefully ripped from good, God-fearing Americans by greedy big pharma so they can use Biden to make money and go be paedos together. Sensational.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 16, 2021, 04:01:32 PM
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/top-doctors-and-scientists-sue-the-fda-to-obtain-the-data-used-to-approve-pfizer-jab/

The data used to approve the vaccine was not publicly released and the FDA is actively fighting to keep it secret. Despicable.
You pick and destroy details of peer reviewed studies but you believe this stuff?

an anonymous fake website with links to fake data... published by...  some dude...

I am just a concerned citizen reporting on often overlooked public data regarding adverse events related to the new Covid-19 vaccines. I work with data for a living and have been in the technology field for over two decades.

Ironic fact about me: I spent the better part of a decade building websites for big Pharma. There is likely not a single big Pharma company I have not built a website for.


with data taken from...

Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

    Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
    Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
    The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
    VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
    VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.


... like someone who built websites for big pharma would be using this punk-ass wordpress theme.

Sad
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 16, 2021, 04:15:51 PM
Per the legal complaint, the FDA did not refuse to provide information, they refused to expedite the FOIA request. Massive difference there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
You pick and destroy details of peer reviewed studies but you believe this stuff?

an anonymous fake website with links to fake data... published by...  some dude...

It's not anonymous. It says that the editor reporting it is named Jack Bingham. He's reporting news, which is quite different than dispensing scientific opinion in a professional capacity.

Clicking on the links in the article leads to the lawsuit and associated information, showing that the key events in the article are true.

Lawsuit: https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/001-Complaint-101021.pdf

Per the legal complaint, the FDA did not refuse to provide information, they refused to expedite the FOIA request. Massive difference there.

Which is an admission that they have not released it to the public and that the FDA was working against public disclosure. Why wasn't it released to the public on day one? If it wasn't released it means that the FDA was working against public disclosure and still is.

In the lawsuit the organization cites regulation that it should have been released:

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/001-Complaint-101021.pdf

(https://i.imgur.com/7TK6KzV.png)

If it should have been released and wasn't then the FDA either accidentally overlooked it or that they are working against public disclosure. It's hard to believe that they "accidentally" neglected to release the data on which this very scrutinized and high profile vaccine was approved. One is compelled to deduce that they didn't want to release it.

The lawsuit makes a number of arguments that the matter is urgent and shouldn't be slow walked.

(https://i.imgur.com/CXKI2zR.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/6RVHqQ3.png)

What's the definition of immediately?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 16, 2021, 07:10:32 PM
Per the legal complaint, the FDA did not refuse to provide information, they refused to expedite the FOIA request. Massive difference there.
Which is an admission that they have not released it to the public and that the FDA was working against public disclosure. Why wasn't it released to the public on day one? If it wasn't released it means that the FDA was working against public disclosure and still is.

How is it an "admission" of anything? Isn't that rather speculative on your part. Are you an expert in FDA approval policies and procedures?

The FDA denied the expedition, not the overall request. Perhaps the FDA has a whole system around how and when they publish. And perhaps this request for expedited info doesn't fall into the system (Regs) that warrants expedited anything. I have no idea, neither do you, so it seems presumptuous on your part to claim that the FDA is doing something untoward because they are not meeting an arbitrary timeline set by an arbitrary request.

Where does the case stand now? The filing was a month ago.

Also, if interested, you can search the FDA regulations pretty easily:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm

There's a lot more to C.F.R. § 601.51 (and elsewhere in the Regs) than is mentioned in the filing regarding immediacy, data, disclosure, etc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2021, 08:11:28 PM
Denial of the expediton request is an admission that they did not release it in the first place. They could have said:

- Here it is
- This request is invalid because it was already released, see xx

But this was not the answer. They imply with their answer that they have not released it. If they have not released it they are withholding it from the public.

There would be regulations if there was a "whole system" where the FDA waited until after drugs became approved and released before the public could see the safety data. Where are those regulations?

The regulations that the lawyers in the lawsuit found say that it was supposed to be released immediately. Written in black and white from the FDA itself. You have provided zero contradicting information, and only speculation, that there are alternate regulations which allow them to not release the safety data for the drugs and vaccines it approves. The evidence that you offer for your argument is "I have no idea". A real stunner of an argument from you. ::)

The FOIA request was made on Sept 9th and the followup lawsuit was made on Sept 16th. Five days ago on Oct 11th the group's lawyer said that the FDA has still neglected to provide the information and is delaying it -

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.” 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 16, 2021, 08:57:04 PM
Denial of the expediton request is an admission that they did not release it in the first place. They could have said:

- Here it is
- This request is invalid because it was already released, see xx

But this was not the answer. They imply with their answer that they have not released it. If they have not released it they are withholding it from the public.

There would be regulations if there was a "whole system" where the FDA waited until after drugs became approved and released before the public could see the safety data. Where are those regulations?

The regulations that the lawyers in the lawsuit found say that it was supposed to be released immediately. Written in black and white from the FDA itself. You have provided zero contradicting information, and only speculation, that there are alternate regulations which allow them to not release the safety data for the drugs and vaccines it approves. The evidence that you offer for your argument is "I have no idea". A real stunner of an argument from you. ::)

The FOIA request was made on Sept 9th and the followup lawsuit was made on Sept 16th. Five days ago on Oct 11th the group's lawyer said that the FDA has still neglected to provide the information and is delaying it -

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.” 

The materials are available for disclosure, it’s just not being expedited. Whats so hard to understand here?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2021, 09:06:34 PM
The group's lawyer says that according to federal law it was supposed to be released immediately. Are you a lawyer? Are you a legal expert? He is.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 16, 2021, 09:13:37 PM
The materials are available for disclosure, it’s just not being expedited. Whats so hard to understand here?
I’m honestly wondering if this whole exchange is rooted in Tom not understanding what “expedite” means.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2021, 09:21:38 PM
It should not need to be requested or expedited because it was supposed to have been released when the vaccine was licensed

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

You can’t say no, you can’t sue for harm, and you can’t see the data underlying the government’s claim that the product is safe and effective.

...

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.” 

The lawyer states that according to federal law this information should have been released when the vaccine was licensed. The public should have access to the the safety data for the vaccines and drugs they are putting into to their bodies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 16, 2021, 10:46:31 PM
It should not need to be requested or expedited because it was supposed to have been released when the vaccine was licensed

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

You can’t say no, you can’t sue for harm, and you can’t see the data underlying the government’s claim that the product is safe and effective.

...

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.” 

The lawyer states that according to federal law this information should have been released when the vaccine was licensed. The public should have access to the the safety data for the vaccines and drugs they are putting into to their bodies.

It is available to be disclosed and that disclosure process is underway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 16, 2021, 11:01:36 PM
The group's lawyer says that according to federal law it was supposed to be released immediately. Are you a lawyer? Are you a legal expert? He is.

And an FDA lawyer wrote back saying that the request to expedite was unfounded. Lawyer v Lawyer, two experts in law. I'm sure the lawyers, experts, will work this out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2021, 11:14:15 PM
The group's lawyer says that according to federal law it was supposed to be released immediately. Are you a lawyer? Are you a legal expert? He is.

And an FDA lawyer wrote back saying that the request to expedite was unfounded. Lawyer v Lawyer, two experts in law. I'm sure the lawyers, experts, will work this out.

The FOIA and the request to expedite is good that they made those requests, but irrelevant to the point that it was supposed to have been immediately released when the application was approved. It wasn't. The FDA is withholding safety data from the public in violation of federal law.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 17, 2021, 12:09:08 AM
The group's lawyer says that according to federal law it was supposed to be released immediately. Are you a lawyer? Are you a legal expert? He is.

And an FDA lawyer wrote back saying that the request to expedite was unfounded. Lawyer v Lawyer, two experts in law. I'm sure the lawyers, experts, will work this out.

The FOIA and the request to expedite is good that they made those requests, but irrelevant to the point that it was supposed to have been immediately released when the application was approved. It wasn't. The FDA is withholding safety data from the public in violation of federal law.

According to the lawyer who submitted the FOIA. According to the lawyer from the FDA who responded to the request, s/he/them deemed the request for expedition did not qualify under their own regulations. What makes your lawyer's interpretation more worthwhile than the FDA's lawyers? Are you in an interpretive position to say that the FDA is withholding safety data from the public in violation of federal law?  I think not as you are not an expert.

I would leave this up to the courts to decide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2021, 12:14:07 AM
The lawyer says that they violated federal law by not releasing it right here:

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.

Where did the FDA claim that they were not in violation of the law on this matter?

What's the definition of immediate?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 17, 2021, 12:30:35 AM
The lawyer says that they violated federal law by not releasing it right here:

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.

Where did the FDA claim that they were not in violation of the law on this matter?

What's the definition of immediate?

And the lawyer for the FDA says, "I have determined that your request for expedited processing does not meet the criteria under the FOIA. You have not demonstrated a compelling need that involves an imminent threat to the life or physical safety of an individual. Neither have you demonstrated that there exists an urgency to inform the public concerning actual or alleged Federal Government activity. Therefore, I am denying your request for expedited processing."

This above taken from your affidavit.

So one lawyer says "they violated federal law by not releasing it", and the FDA lawyer(s) say bollocks to that.

So what's your point? Why does your lawyer have more credibility in your eyes as opposed to the FDA lawyer(s)? And in answering that question, who are you to answer it? Are you a lawyer? Are you expert in FDA laws and regulations? Why are you interpreting one way or the other in this case? What expertise do you bring to the table?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2021, 12:39:06 AM
Incorrect. That's talking about the FIOA request which said that the request was urgent. The FDA acknowledged that they had the information, but claimed it wasn't urgent.

This is not a claim that they didn't violate the specific law referenced. This is separate issue entirely. There is a federal law that states that it must be immediately available upon licensing. It is referenced in the lawsuit as well. Is there a specific response to this law by the FDA?

No, there is not. You are unable to even find a denial on this matter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 17, 2021, 01:03:00 AM
Incorrect. That's talking about the FIOA request which said that the request was urgent. The FDA acknowledged that they had the information, but claimed it wasn't urgent.

They determined that whatever the request was, was not urgent. Regardless of whether they had "information" or not. Just that a request was not deemed to be actionable.
It's your interpretation that they have stuff they are "withholding" from you. Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you will get it in the timeframe you asked for it. Are you a lawyer, an expert? Is your interpretation founded on your expertise in the matter?

Again, one lawyer says they should get X. Another lawyer says not in your timeframe. Who is right? Which lawyer? Are you equipped to say who is right?

This is not a claim that they didn't violate the specific law referenced. This is separate issue entirely. There is a federal law that states that it must be immediately available upon licensing. It is referenced in the lawsuit as well. Is there a specific response to this law by the FDA?

No, there is not. You are unable to even find a denial on this matter.

Did you look into the link I sent you regarding FDA Regulations? And how there are caveats regarding disseminating their findings? Subsequent to "immediately available upon licensing." There's a whole bunch of stuff around proprietary info, disclosures, etc. Again, you cherry pick one line in a regulatory document and leave out a whole host of context around it.

As evidenced by all of your other efforts to assert affidavits as proof of something, you're batting about .000%.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2021, 04:55:27 PM
Quote from: stack
Again, one lawyer says they should get X. Another lawyer says not in your timeframe. Who is right? Which lawyer? Are you equipped to say who is right?

The FDA didn't address the law in question. They was responding to the expedited FOIA request, arguing that it didn't need to be an urgent request, which is a separate matter about the nature of that FOIA request and not whether the FDA violated the law in August when the vaccine was licensed.

Quote from: stack
Did you look into the link I sent you regarding FDA Regulations? And how there are caveats regarding disseminating their findings? Subsequent to "immediately available upon licensing." There's a whole bunch of stuff around proprietary info, disclosures, etc. Again, you cherry pick one line in a regulatory document and leave out a whole host of context around it.

Incorrect. I did not point out the line in the regulatory document. The lawyer did. The lawyer is an expert at the law and you are not.

You believe that there may be regulatory hoops which allows the government to withhold the safety data for the products it licenses from the public. You are not a lawyer, however. You have no source for this information and must refer to yourself as the source, and admit that it is based on "I have no idea". On the other hand we have a lawyer who has studied the law for many years and can give his expert opinion on what it means. Why should we think that you are an equally qualified source which must be given equal weight?

Here we have another instance of you absurdly trying to use unqualified individuals to contradict qualified individuals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 17, 2021, 05:24:31 PM
The FDA is not withholding anything. The FOIA request is in process.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2021, 05:44:03 PM
Look up the definition of public disclosure.

The lawyer said:

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.

Definition for public disclosure:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/public-disclosure

(https://i.imgur.com/tXSDHms.png)

Look up the definition for immediately:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/immediately

(https://i.imgur.com/G9oI7DQ.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 17, 2021, 06:07:12 PM
Law definitions of 'immediately'

immediately
adv. 1) at once. 2) in orders of the court or in contracts it means "as soon as can be done" without excuse.

Immediately (law)
Courts have used immediately to mean "Promptly, with expedition, with reasonable haste consistent with fair business activity." 46 Am J1st Sales § 163.
Courts, looking at the substance of contracts and statutes, have, during the last two centuries, repeatedly declared that the word "immediately," although in strictness it excludes all meantimes, yet to make good the deeds and intents of the parties, it shall be construed "such convenient time as is reasonably requisite for doing the thing." Anno: 16 ALR 609.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immediately_(law)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 17, 2021, 07:11:39 PM
Holy shit.
It’s genuinely incredible how much pointless debate Tom can spin out of the slightest semantic subtlety.
It’s baffling that people continue to engage with it.

It’s clear this request is being dealt with.
It’s equally clear that the only dispute is whether it’s a request they should expedite. That’s about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2021, 07:21:45 PM
Holy shit.
It’s genuinely incredible how much pointless debate Tom can spin out of the slightest semantic subtlety.
It’s baffling that people continue to engage with it.

It’s clear this request is being dealt with.
It’s equally clear that the only dispute is whether it’s a request they should expedite. That’s about it.

The lawyer says that federal law states that it should have become immediately available when it was licensed. Are you a lawyer? Please answer with only a yes or no.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 17, 2021, 07:50:10 PM
The lawyer says that federal law states that it should have become immediately available when it was licensed.
And stack has provided the legal definition of what that means.
And a different lawyer - who is also a lawyer - is saying that there is no need to expedite this request. It’s interesting how selectively you regard people’s qualifications as significant depending on whether they say something which fits your agenda.

Quote
Are you a lawyer? Please answer with only a yes or no.

No.

Are you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2021, 09:34:43 PM
The lawyer says that federal law states that it should have become immediately available when it was licensed.
And stack has provided the legal definition of what that means.
And a different lawyer - who is also a lawyer - is saying that there is no need to expedite this request. It’s interesting how selectively you regard people’s qualifications as significant depending on whether they say something which fits your agenda.

That's talking about the FOIA request for the information. According to FOIA a FOIA request can be expedited if there is urgency. The FDA disagreed that the FOIA request for the information was urgent, but said nothing about whether they broke the law by not making the information available for public disclosure at the time the vaccine was licensed in August.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Are you a lawyer? Please answer with only a yes or no.
No.

Are you?

The lawyer who made the lawsuit is a lawyer. The lawyer says that federal law states that it should have become immediately available when it was licensed.

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/scientists-sue-the-fda-for-data-it

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 17, 2021, 10:59:36 PM

Why has the FDA, weeks after the filing of a federal lawsuit, still not agreed to timely release this data?  Why does the FDA persist in delaying its release when even federal law states that, once licensed, the “data and information in the biological product file [for the licensed vaccine] are immediately available for public disclosure.”

Sure looks like the law definition of ‘immediately’ as referenced above has been applied by the FDA. In essence the Fed law you reference reads like this:

“data and information in the biological product file are available for public disclosure at such convenient time as is reasonably requisite for doing the thing.”

Or perhaps:

“data and information in the biological product file are available as soon as can be done for public disclosure.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2021, 01:55:27 AM
Five lawyers who think that a two week delay is not "immediately":

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-there-a-legal-definition-of--immediately---2018777.html

(https://i.imgur.com/RrI42qJ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/MRFfBVu.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/K7VH85m.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/71dOMbn.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/M628Oxt.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/dNXp99K.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 18, 2021, 02:03:11 AM
It would be great if you could stick to the topic and not refer to people providing payment.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 18, 2021, 05:35:52 AM
Five lawyers who think that a two week delay is not "immediately":

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-there-a-legal-definition-of--immediately---2018777.html

Instead of going with your ambulance chasers, a bankruptcy lawyer, and a divorce lawyer, I'll go with actual case law:

So just in terms of dictionary definitions, immediately looks very much like promptly. And this similarity becomes more pronounced when you look at the caselaw, which indicates that just like promptly, immediately is subject to a reasonableness standard. Here are some representative cases:

- Dwoskin v. Rollins, Inc., 634 F.2d 285, 294 (5th Cir. 1981) (stating that “several Georgia cases arising in a variety of contexts suggest that immediate delivery means performance with reasonable diligence concerning the circumstances”).
- East Texas Medical Center Regional Healthcare System v. Lexington Insurance Co., No. 6:04‑CV‑165, 2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 50613, at *19 n.10 (E.D. Tex. July 12, 2007) (“Texas courts interpret ‘as soon as practicable’ and ‘immediately’ to mean ‘within a reasonable time under the circumstances.'”).
- Briggs Ave, LLC v. Ins. Corp. of Hanover, 05 Civ. 4212, 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 34854, at *14 N.3 (S.D.N.Y. May 30, 2006) (“In any event, there is little or no functional difference between terms like ‘immediately’ or ‘as soon as practicable’; whatever language a policy uses to limit the time for notice, the touchstone is always the same, reasonableness under the circumstances.”).
- Martinez v. Dist. 1199J Nat’l Union of Hosp. & Health Care Employees, 280 F. Supp. 2d 342, 353 (D.N.J. 2003) (“The Court finds that ‘immediately prior’ means that a reasonable amount of time would pass between eligibility for health coverage with the Fund and the start of unemployment.”).
- Sunshine Textile Services, Inc. v. American Employers’ Insurance Company, No. 4:CV-95-0699, 1997 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 22904, at *7 (M.D. Pa. May 12,1997) (“The requirement of notice ‘as soon as practicable’ or ‘immediately’ both prescribe notice within a reasonable amount of time under the circumstances after learning of the occurrence, taking into account the exercise of due diligence.”).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2021, 06:29:18 AM
Actually, all those people went to law school and deal in the law and know what immediately means.

Even the website you copy and pasted that from says that immediately means expeditious.

https://www.adamsdrafting.com/promptly-and-immediately/

(https://i.imgur.com/uXbqq0O.png)

The author ends the article by recommending to use immediately when there is a real sense of urgency:

(https://i.imgur.com/8Em75SG.png)

If there is a real sense of urgency, according to that author, you should use "immediately" in contracts.

In the above Service Provider example a "reasonable amount of time" for that action may be just the amount of time it takes to suspend the account of the User, or to perform the action demanded, and does not signify any delay or lessening of urgency.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 18, 2021, 06:59:51 AM
In the case of your five lawyers talking about the immediacy of landlord payment (a far cry from federal law regarding drug/vaccine regulatory disclosure turnarounds) kind of gave vague answers. I mean 2 weeks was not immediate enough to pay a landlord. What about one week? One day? One hour?

And So what regarding urgency? A real sense of urgency is defined as….? And defined by whom?
The FDA can define their sense of “urgency”. And they can cite case law as to “the reasonableness of the circumstances.”

Perhaps looking at the timelines of other approved drugs/vaccines by the FDA would give a sense as to what their normal turnaround is. Aka, what is their normal reasonableness of circumstances?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on October 19, 2021, 12:05:40 AM
I had to get the vaccine. The clock is ticking. I can feel the devil trying to grab my soul.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on October 19, 2021, 01:18:14 AM
I had to get the vaccine. The clock is ticking. I can feel the devil trying to grab my soul.

Drink blood it might kill the trans-humanism life in you now. Congrats !
https://rumble.com/vnpgtf-dr.-carrie-madej-why-is-rna-modifying-transhumanism-nano-technology-inside-.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on October 19, 2021, 01:44:49 AM
You can tell an article will be reliable and impartial when the first word is "SHOCKING!!!"

Maybe my pfizer chip is just acting up though...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 19, 2021, 04:09:56 AM
In the video Dr Madej said when viewing the vax’s under a microscope she saw a “liquified computing system…something that can self-assemble…I felt it was ’self-aware’…” Which is super cool. I had no idea I got all of that and for free.

She seems to be the only person who has ever seen this so I guess no one else has ever looked at the vax’s under a microscope.

What I don’t get is that she was an invited guest speaker at Trump’s ‘Freedom Rally’ on January 6th. During her speech she said things like, “This is not your normal flu vaccine,” Madej said. “This is something totally different. This is a witches’ brew. I’ve never seen anything like this in science or medicine.”
“There’s many ways it can be taken up into our genome,” she continued. “So when this gets into the genome, if it’s permanent, guess what? You, as a human, can be patented and owned—look it up!


I wonder if it was weird for her to be saying all that stuff about the vaccines when Trump in the same breath was minutes earlier on the same dais touting Operation Warp Speed and getting the vax to Americans as well as himself. I can’t really see how that all squares. I guess any publicity is good publicity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 19, 2021, 04:17:19 AM
Trump and the Vaccine is weird.  He wants to promote it but so much of his base hates it and thinks it'll kill them that he can't.

Its like they forgot Trump pushed it to be developed in the first place...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 19, 2021, 11:36:56 AM
She’s a doctor, you aren’t. If she says there is a liquid computing system in the vaccine, then there is a liquid computing system in the vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 19, 2021, 11:46:38 AM
She’s a doctor, you aren’t. If she says there is a liquid computing system in the vaccine, then there is a liquid computing system in the vaccine.

It would explain people's anecdotes of having better 5G reception, having magnets stick to them or a recent adoration of Bill Gates
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on October 19, 2021, 02:55:19 PM
Since taking the vaccine I've decided I love billionaires. Now I'll vote for the party that also loves billionaires.

Ah, but wait. I'm not allowed to vote for two parties at the same time. Sad!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 19, 2021, 03:58:27 PM
A little more info about the doctor...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88avy5/a-qanon-doctor-who-spoke-at-the-capitol-riots-said-the-covid-vaccine-is-a-witches-brew

A lot of these idiots don't understand that part of this Qanon garbage is being generated from Russia's IRC. Putin and his buddies are laughing at this and placing bets on what they can make Americans believe.

Tentacle creatures? Seriously?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on October 19, 2021, 08:30:52 PM
I had to get the vaccine. The clock is ticking. I can feel the devil trying to grab my soul.

There's still time.  Quick!  Get some Ivermectin and a salt lick to alleviate the deadly symptoms of the vaccine!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 20, 2021, 06:08:05 AM
I had to get the vaccine. The clock is ticking. I can feel the devil trying to grab my soul.

There's still time.  Quick!  Get some Ivermectin and a salt lick to alleviate the deadly symptoms of the vaccine!
Ivermectin doesn’t cure all the symptoms of Covid.

It’s quite good if you’re a little horse though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on October 20, 2021, 06:09:28 AM
It’s quite good if you’re a little horse though.
Oh, well done.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2021, 11:14:02 AM
https://youtu.be/bzh6HwN0gbw

But of an older video but it shows exactly where you can find the number of deaths that cover the old “died of motorcycle accident, had Covid”. It’s around 5% of deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 21, 2021, 05:04:24 PM
Quote
But of an older video but it shows exactly where you can find the number of deaths that cover the old “died of motorcycle accident, had Covid”. It’s around 5% of deaths.

Did you watch the video?

His argument is to admit that people who die of physical injury are being counted as COVID deaths but claims that people who die of physical fatalities is generally a small percent of the number of the people who die so it's irrelevant. It's relevant because it affirms that they are counting anything and that this is an improper counting method. Many more people die to heart attack and cancer and biological causes and will be sweeped into those COVID death statistics. There shouldn't be people who died in motorvehicle crashes in the numbers at all, and just illustrates the point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2021, 05:36:55 PM
Quote
But of an older video but it shows exactly where you can find the number of deaths that cover the old “died of motorcycle accident, had Covid”. It’s around 5% of deaths.

Did you watch the video?

His argument is to admit that people who die of physical injury are being counted as COVID deaths but claims that people who die of physical fatalities is generally a small percent of the number of the people who die so it's irrelevant.

It's not that it's irrelelvant, it's that it is measurable and accounted for.

Quote
It's relevant because it affirms that they are counting anything and that this is an improper counting method.

You patently misunderstand what the relevance of comorbidities and couldn't elaborate on a proper counting method if you tried.

Quote
Many more people die to heart attack and cancer and biological causes and will be sweeped into those COVID death statistics.

Evidence will be needed here.

Quote
There shouldn't be people who died in motorvehicle crashes in the numbers at all, and just illustrates the point.

Are you an expert in COVID death counting?  Yes or no?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on October 21, 2021, 05:48:19 PM
Quote
But of an older video but it shows exactly where you can find the number of deaths that cover the old “died of motorcycle accident, had Covid”. It’s around 5% of deaths.

Did you watch the video?

His argument is to admit that people who die of physical injury are being counted as COVID deaths but claims that people who die of physical fatalities is generally a small percent of the number of the people who die so it's irrelevant. It's relevant because it affirms that they are counting anything and that this is an improper counting method. Many more people die to heart attack and cancer and biological causes and will be sweeped into those COVID death statistics. There shouldn't be people who died in motorvehicle crashes in the numbers at all, and just illustrates the point.

I think you're referring to the mention of "Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events". Which in some cases would be accidents and such where the indivudual wouldn't have died if they didn't have Covid. But let's say all of the folks in that category were motorcycle accidents and had covid, died as a result of their injuries. and got dumped into that category.
That accounts for 3% of the Covid deaths. We stand at 732,000 Covid deaths in the US. Remove that 3% if you want. Then the number is now 710,000. And that's if you toss all 3% out. Which you shouldn't but I'm sure you will anyway. Not to mention that there's a lot of study around how we might be undercounting as opposed to over-counting. But I'm sure that stuff doesn't show up in your twitter feeds or the fringe mis-information panic inducing hack non-factual sites you follow.

So with 710k US Covid deaths, what's your point again?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 21, 2021, 06:52:12 PM
Quote
But of an older video but it shows exactly where you can find the number of deaths that cover the old “died of motorcycle accident, had Covid”. It’s around 5% of deaths.

Did you watch the video?

His argument is to admit that people who die of physical injury are being counted as COVID deaths but claims that people who die of physical fatalities is generally a small percent of the number of the people who die so it's irrelevant. It's relevant because it affirms that they are counting anything and that this is an improper counting method. Many more people die to heart attack and cancer and biological causes and will be sweeped into those COVID death statistics. There shouldn't be people who died in motorvehicle crashes in the numbers at all, and just illustrates the point.

I think you're referring to the mention of "Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events". Which in some cases would be accidents and such where the indivudual wouldn't have died if they didn't have Covid. But let's say all of the folks in that category were motorcycle accidents and had covid, died as a result of their injuries. and got dumped into that category.
That accounts for 3% of the Covid deaths. We stand at 732,000 Covid deaths in the US. Remove that 3% if you want. Then the number is now 710,000. And that's if you toss all 3% out. Which you shouldn't but I'm sure you will anyway. Not to mention that there's a lot of study around how we might be undercounting as opposed to over-counting. But I'm sure that stuff doesn't show up in your twitter feeds or the fringe mis-information panic inducing hack non-factual sites you follow.

So with 710k US Covid deaths, what's your point again?

I think you'll find it's now around 752K dead. I know, it's hard to keep up when 50K people are dropping dead every month to this thing  :o
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 22, 2021, 04:09:00 AM
Tom's goal isn't to show one thing is wromg thst accounts for all, its to show that one thing is dishonest and therefore everything is.

He's the kind of guy who will chop down the tree because of a bad apple.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2021, 01:44:22 PM
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/578056-fully-vaccinated-definition-could-change-in

The CDC director has stated she might change what "fully vaccinated" means at some future point in time.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/679/cCVqHor.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on October 24, 2021, 01:51:02 PM
theRe aRE nO lONg-tERM stUdieS on tHE VAccIne

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00926-1
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2021, 01:59:00 PM
theRe aRE nO lONg-tERM stUdieS on tHE VAccIne

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00926-1

That’s not a vaccine study. It’s not even a great virus study because it’s focus is super narrow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on October 24, 2021, 02:08:58 PM
theRe aRE nO lONg-tERM stUdieS on tHE VAccIne

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00926-1

That’s not a vaccine study. It’s not even a great virus study because it’s focus is super narrow.

i'm aware it's not a vaccine study. i've been making the argument that "i won't take the vaccine because i don't know the long-term health effects" is silly because one also does not know the long-term health effects of covid-69. this study indicates that such long-term effects are worth taking seriously.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2021, 04:30:53 PM
Apparently people would prefer 10 years of lockdowns/deaths before a vaccine....

Go figure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2021, 11:24:45 PM
theRe aRE nO lONg-tERM stUdieS on tHE VAccIne

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00926-1

That’s not a vaccine study. It’s not even a great virus study because it’s focus is super narrow.

i'm aware it's not a vaccine study. i've been making the argument that "i won't take the vaccine because i don't know the long-term health effects" is silly because one also does not know the long-term health effects of covid-69. this study indicates that such long-term effects are worth taking seriously.

Yeah, “long Covid” was vague enough that fuckwits could hand wave away the 33% of people that suffer from it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 25, 2021, 05:37:53 AM
Apparently people would prefer 10 years of lockdowns/deaths before a vaccine....

Go figure.
What makes you think this will last 10 years?
The only comparable pandemic is the Spanish Flu which killed a lot more people than Covid and lasted about 2 years. And that was without a vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 25, 2021, 06:47:39 AM
Apparently people would prefer 10 years of lockdowns/deaths before a vaccine....

Go figure.
What makes you think this will last 10 years?
The only comparable pandemic is the Spanish Flu which killed a lot more people than Covid and lasted about 2 years. And that was without a vaccine.

Study length.
Ie. "yep, long term study.  Its safe."

So basically "we wanna wait for a vaccine until years after we don't need it."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on October 25, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Apparently people would prefer 10 years of lockdowns/deaths before a vaccine....

Go figure.
What makes you think this will last 10 years?
The only comparable pandemic is the Spanish Flu which killed a lot more people than Covid and lasted about 2 years. And that was without a vaccine.

Study length.
Ie. "yep, long term study.  Its safe."

So basically "we wanna wait for a vaccine until years after we don't need it."

The corona virus is not an influenza virus. I have a feeling it will be with us for some time like the cold. We'll keep getting reinfected with some other strain or because of waning immunity (whether natural or vaccine derived)

The only people left unharmed will be those that were smart enough to take a vaccine when they had access

If the threat of Covid goes away it will be by the weak being culled and the genetics of those left alive as strong enough to pass on.

People can go for natural immunity if they wish. It's a roll of the dice whether they come out the other side unscathed. I'm vaccinated so I don't give a shit for their ills. I don't even care about mingling with these muppets. If I come in contact with the SARS-Cov-2 virus, I'll simply consider it my unofficial booster. Being vaccinated my body doesn't give a flap. And hey, if I'm infected maybe I can even bag myself an unvaccinated moron to get their Darwin award 8)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2021, 12:59:16 AM
Imperfect vaccination makes you a health hazard - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/

Quote
Vaccines that let the hosts survive but do not prevent the spread of the pathogen relax this selection, allowing the evolution of hotter pathogens to occur.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on October 28, 2021, 01:36:11 AM
Imperfect vaccination makes you a health hazard - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/

Quote
Vaccines that let the hosts survive but do not prevent the spread of the pathogen relax this selection, allowing the evolution of hotter pathogens to occur.

This paper is about incredibly deadly chicken viruses. It makes sense that if you give a virus that doesn’t have much time to spread more purchase, then it would be able to mutate more freely. I wonder what the numbers look like with COVID, a much less deadly virus already. COVID gets many more chances to mutate among the unvaccinated than the vaccinated, so the principal being proposed here isn’t very applicable. But hey, go on and tell me I am not a medical expert, etc…
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on October 28, 2021, 02:09:39 AM
Imperfect vaccination makes you a health hazard - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/

Quote
Vaccines that let the hosts survive but do not prevent the spread of the pathogen relax this selection, allowing the evolution of hotter pathogens to occur.

nice lying.

from the abstract:

"Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

covid-19 vaccines reduce transmission, and they protect you from more severe strains of the disease.

i also enjoyed this tidbit: "Our data do not demonstrate that vaccination was responsible for the evolution of hyperpathogenic strains of MDV, and we may never know for sure why they evolved in the first place."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 03, 2021, 05:09:42 AM
covid-19 vaccines reduce transmission

This is incorrect.

There is no correlation between vaccination rates and increases in Covid-19. Who would have thought?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

(https://i.imgur.com/NjIYlvU.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 03, 2021, 05:52:47 AM
covid-19 vaccines reduce transmission

This is incorrect.

There is no correlation between vaccination rates and increases in Covid-19. Who would have thought?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

(https://i.imgur.com/NjIYlvU.png)

Your source is, for one, outdated (September) and for two, says this about Puerto Rico:

"Arecibo (Puerto Rico) counties have above 90% of their population fully vaccinated with all three being classified as “High” transmission."

But then look at the actual stats:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Q6qg04.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/akDzbtr.png)

I wonder what caused the covid hospitalization cases to plummet? I don't know about "transmission" numbers from vaccinated to others, but something caused hospitalization and case counts to dramatically fall.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 03, 2021, 10:01:35 AM
I don't know about "transmission" numbers from vaccinated to others
Of course you don't.
 
but something caused hospitalization and case counts to dramatically fall.
People who handle the reporting do so in much the same fashion as you handle your posts here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on November 03, 2021, 11:19:39 AM
I don't know about "transmission" numbers from vaccinated to others
Of course you don't.

Ontario hasn’t changed testing and reporting requirements and has been loosening restrictions to the point that they are almost gone and we had no significant uptick in cases during that time, including when children returned to school. The only mitigating factor was the vaccine.

 
Quote
but something caused hospitalization and case counts to dramatically fall.
People who handle the reporting do so in much the same fashion as you handle your posts here.

It’s a plandemic! Wake up Sheeple! When Trump is announces he has been reinstated we will be free!
#trusttheplan #wwg1wga
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 03, 2021, 01:56:13 PM
covid-19 vaccines reduce transmission

This is incorrect.

There is no correlation between vaccination rates and increases in Covid-19. Who would have thought?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

(https://i.imgur.com/NjIYlvU.png)

Your source is, for one, outdated (September) and for two, says this about Puerto Rico:

"Arecibo (Puerto Rico) counties have above 90% of their population fully vaccinated with all three being classified as “High” transmission."

But then look at the actual stats:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Q6qg04.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/akDzbtr.png)

I wonder what caused the covid hospitalization cases to plummet? I don't know about "transmission" numbers from vaccinated to others, but something caused hospitalization and case counts to dramatically fall.

September is not outdated. People have been taking the vaccine in large numbers all year.

Per the graph, you will find that the other graphs for Puerto Rico on that NYT page you got the graph from, which you didn't link us to or even specify the source of for what I can only construe as unethical reasons, shows that the stats are going up and down, and that it has not been flat since May.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/puerto-rico-covid-cases.html

(https://i.imgur.com/KPSlgLU.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/0lYQSUq.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/TD8dGWB.png)

The data for your graph and the case and death count comes from somewhat different sources:

(https://i.imgur.com/TtdMfcE.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ASpKlg4.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 06, 2021, 10:02:07 PM
Seems the primary study touting Pfizer was full of holes:
https://youtu.be/THv33zWykJc
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 06, 2021, 11:22:55 PM
Seems the primary study touting Pfizer was full of holes:

"Full of holes" is kind of stretch. Ventavia, the research contractor in question used by Pfizer, among many - According to Brook Jackson, the whistleblower, who worked at Ventavia for 2 weeks:

"The Pfizer Phase III trial involved 44,000 people and 153 locations. From August 2020 through Sept. 17, 2020 — when she was fired — Jackson told CBS 17 that Ventavia accounted for at least 1,200 of those people and accounted for three sites."
https://www.cbs17.com/news/north-carolina-news/fact-check-report-questioning-pfizer-trial-shouldnt-undermine-confidence-in-vaccines/

Still, even though it's a fraction of the trial, definitely worthy of investigation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 05:21:18 AM
Seems the primary study touting Pfizer was full of holes:

"Full of holes" is kind of stretch. Ventavia, the research contractor in question used by Pfizer, among many - According to Brook Jackson, the whistleblower, who worked at Ventavia for 2 weeks:

"The Pfizer Phase III trial involved 44,000 people and 153 locations. From August 2020 through Sept. 17, 2020 — when she was fired — Jackson told CBS 17 that Ventavia accounted for at least 1,200 of those people and accounted for three sites."
https://www.cbs17.com/news/north-carolina-news/fact-check-report-questioning-pfizer-trial-shouldnt-undermine-confidence-in-vaccines/

Still, even though it's a fraction of the trial, definitely worthy of investigation.
153 sites and 12 checked.

That's full of holes.

You would promote buying a blanket with only 9 percent of the fabric present, stating,"What holes?"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 07, 2021, 06:11:12 AM
Seems the primary study touting Pfizer was full of holes:

"Full of holes" is kind of stretch. Ventavia, the research contractor in question used by Pfizer, among many - According to Brook Jackson, the whistleblower, who worked at Ventavia for 2 weeks:

"The Pfizer Phase III trial involved 44,000 people and 153 locations. From August 2020 through Sept. 17, 2020 — when she was fired — Jackson told CBS 17 that Ventavia accounted for at least 1,200 of those people and accounted for three sites."
https://www.cbs17.com/news/north-carolina-news/fact-check-report-questioning-pfizer-trial-shouldnt-undermine-confidence-in-vaccines/

Still, even though it's a fraction of the trial, definitely worthy of investigation.
153 sites and 12 checked.

That's full of holes.

You would promote buying a blanket with only 9 percent of the fabric present, stating,"What holes?"

Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 07, 2021, 06:58:36 AM
Seems the primary study touting Pfizer was full of holes:

"Full of holes" is kind of stretch. Ventavia, the research contractor in question used by Pfizer, among many - According to Brook Jackson, the whistleblower, who worked at Ventavia for 2 weeks:

"The Pfizer Phase III trial involved 44,000 people and 153 locations. From August 2020 through Sept. 17, 2020 — when she was fired — Jackson told CBS 17 that Ventavia accounted for at least 1,200 of those people and accounted for three sites."
https://www.cbs17.com/news/north-carolina-news/fact-check-report-questioning-pfizer-trial-shouldnt-undermine-confidence-in-vaccines/

Still, even though it's a fraction of the trial, definitely worthy of investigation.
153 sites and 12 checked.

That's full of holes.

You would promote buying a blanket with only 9 percent of the fabric present, stating,"What holes?"

Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
This sounds like "I'm a shitty company" from Ventavia.  Or segmented data.  Or bad managers.  Or overworked people.

Basically less malevelance and more 'people not doing their jobs well'.

Or maybe the company Ventavia is like marketing companies: faking all their data because no one wants to take surveys.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 10:57:03 AM


Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
The video mentions 9 checked and you stated 3 more were checked. 9+3=12.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 11:11:44 AM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 07, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 12:47:44 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 07, 2021, 01:54:58 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on November 07, 2021, 02:06:05 PM
This, naturally, extends to the federal government

It definitely does not naturally extend to the federal government and they will have to make a much more convincing argument on why it should.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 03:05:17 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 07, 2021, 06:06:51 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

From the judge.
Quote
...in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."[2]

And since the Law was  mandate, I'm not sure what your point is. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 07, 2021, 06:12:40 PM
This, naturally, extends to the federal government

It definitely does not naturally extend to the federal government and they will have to make a much more convincing argument on why it should.

Why not?
It is the duty of the federal government to ensure life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not invalidated.  And if a state has the power to ensure that the public is protected and healthy from a disease, then the federal government, which must manage trade and travel between states, can ensure the same as all states have interstate travel and trade.
This is how they are doing it with OSHA.  Essentially stating that a business of 100 people will have interstate commerce and thus must provide a safe workspace that will ensure that any disease is not transferred to other states.


I mean, Biden could just ban interstate travel if vaccines aren't a thing.  But... This seems like a better choice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 07, 2021, 06:59:13 PM


Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
The video mentions 9 checked and you stated 3 more were checked. 9+3=12.

The 3 mentioned in the quote I referenced was merely that Ventavia was responsible for 3 out of the 153 sites used in the trial. The 9 "checked" mentioned in the video is from the original paper. And the paper states that info was from a letter from the FDA in August. But I can't find that letter reference anywhere. It doesn't seem to be listed in the paper's references and I can't find it anywhere else. So where's this FDA letter saying 9 sites were "checked"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 07:09:28 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

From the judge.
Quote
...in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."[2]

And since the Law was  mandate, I'm not sure what your point is.
So, you got nothing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 07:11:16 PM
This, naturally, extends to the federal government

It definitely does not naturally extend to the federal government and they will have to make a much more convincing argument on why it should.

Why not?
It is the duty of the federal government to ensure life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not invalidated.  And if a state has the power to ensure that the public is protected and healthy from a disease, then the federal government, which must manage trade and travel between states, can ensure the same as all states have interstate travel and trade.
This is how they are doing it with OSHA.  Essentially stating that a business of 100 people will have interstate commerce and thus must provide a safe workspace that will ensure that any disease is not transferred to other states.


I mean, Biden could just ban interstate travel if vaccines aren't a thing.  But... This seems like a better choice.
A state has that power because of legislation passed by representatives of the people, not by dictatorial mandates.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 07, 2021, 07:24:38 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

"Mandate are quickly implemented to face a specific situation, limited in time. A law is a long-term rule, voted by the elected representatives, and that often take more time to be created. Both are enforceable by the police, but they respond to different situations."

"A mandate is defined as “the authority given to an elected group of people, such as a government, to perform an action or govern a country” (Cambridge Dictionary)...While they might not be laws, a mandate is still legally enforceable. In fact, they will often have the same effect as bills that have passed into law...Additionally, mandates can be as widespread."
https://alldifferences.com/difference-between-mandate-and-law/

Seems that mandates and laws are interchangeable and are differentiated more in terms of effect duration, temporary versus permanent.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 07:40:43 PM


Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
The video mentions 9 checked and you stated 3 more were checked. 9+3=12.

The 3 mentioned in the quote I referenced was merely that Ventavia was responsible for 3 out of the 153 sites used in the trial. The 9 "checked" mentioned in the video is from the original paper. And the paper states that info was from a letter from the FDA in August. But I can't find that letter reference anywhere. It doesn't seem to be listed in the paper's references and I can't find it anywhere else. So where's this FDA letter saying 9 sites were "checked"?
The study in the New England Journal was based off data from 9 sites, 1/3 of that has issues according to the BMJ.

Your joke of a fact check site does nothing to refute the BMJ report.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 07, 2021, 07:50:22 PM


Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
The video mentions 9 checked and you stated 3 more were checked. 9+3=12.

The 3 mentioned in the quote I referenced was merely that Ventavia was responsible for 3 out of the 153 sites used in the trial. The 9 "checked" mentioned in the video is from the original paper. And the paper states that info was from a letter from the FDA in August. But I can't find that letter reference anywhere. It doesn't seem to be listed in the paper's references and I can't find it anywhere else. So where's this FDA letter saying 9 sites were "checked"?
The study in the New England Journal was based off data from 9 sites, 1/3 of that has issues according to the BMJ.

Your joke of a fact check site does nothing to refute the BMJ report.

You are incorrect. From the article itself:

"In August this year, after the full approval of Pfizer’s vaccine, the FDA published a summary of its inspections of the company’s pivotal trial. Nine of the trial’s 153 sites were inspected. Ventavia’s sites were not listed among the nine, and no inspections of sites where adults were recruited took place in the eight months after the December 2020 emergency authorisation. The FDA’s inspection officer noted: “The data integrity and verification portion of the BIMO [bioresearch monitoring] inspections were limited because the study was ongoing, and the data required for verification and comparison were not yet available to the IND [investigational new drug]."

Nowhere does it say "1/3 of it had issues". What it says is that 9 sites were inspected (out of 153). The 3 Ventavia sites, the ones in question, were not among those 9. What I'm trying to find is where that 9 sites and the above quote from the FDA came from. I can't find it and the author of the article doesn't list it in his references. 

I think it would hold more weight if someone could actually produce that document. Otherwise, I'm a little skeptical.

And btw, it's an article, not a study.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 07:54:11 PM


Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
The video mentions 9 checked and you stated 3 more were checked. 9+3=12.

The 3 mentioned in the quote I referenced was merely that Ventavia was responsible for 3 out of the 153 sites used in the trial. The 9 "checked" mentioned in the video is from the original paper. And the paper states that info was from a letter from the FDA in August. But I can't find that letter reference anywhere. It doesn't seem to be listed in the paper's references and I can't find it anywhere else. So where's this FDA letter saying 9 sites were "checked"?
The study in the New England Journal was based off data from 9 sites, 1/3 of that has issues according to the BMJ.

Your joke of a fact check site does nothing to refute the BMJ report.

You are incorrect. From the article itself:

"In August this year, after the full approval of Pfizer’s vaccine, the FDA published a summary of its inspections of the company’s pivotal trial. Nine of the trial’s 153 sites were inspected. Ventavia’s sites were not listed among the nine, and no inspections of sites where adults were recruited took place in the eight months after the December 2020 emergency authorisation. The FDA’s inspection officer noted: “The data integrity and verification portion of the BIMO [bioresearch monitoring] inspections were limited because the study was ongoing, and the data required for verification and comparison were not yet available to the IND [investigational new drug]."

Nowhere does it say "1/3 of it had issues". What it says is that 9 sites were inspected (out of 153). The 3 Ventavia sites, the ones in question, were not among those 9. What I'm trying to find is where that 9 sites and the above quote from the FDA came from. I can't find it and the author of the article doesn't list it in his references. 

I think it would hold more weight if someone could actually produce that document. Otherwise, I'm a little skeptical.

And btw, it's an article, not a study.
The only reason you're skeptical is a prestigious doctor isn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 07, 2021, 08:43:51 PM


Where did you get 12 from? I can't find that anywhere. I'm not saying that's not true, I just don't see it mentioned.
The video mentions 9 checked and you stated 3 more were checked. 9+3=12.

The 3 mentioned in the quote I referenced was merely that Ventavia was responsible for 3 out of the 153 sites used in the trial. The 9 "checked" mentioned in the video is from the original paper. And the paper states that info was from a letter from the FDA in August. But I can't find that letter reference anywhere. It doesn't seem to be listed in the paper's references and I can't find it anywhere else. So where's this FDA letter saying 9 sites were "checked"?
The study in the New England Journal was based off data from 9 sites, 1/3 of that has issues according to the BMJ.

Your joke of a fact check site does nothing to refute the BMJ report.

You are incorrect. From the article itself:

"In August this year, after the full approval of Pfizer’s vaccine, the FDA published a summary of its inspections of the company’s pivotal trial. Nine of the trial’s 153 sites were inspected. Ventavia’s sites were not listed among the nine, and no inspections of sites where adults were recruited took place in the eight months after the December 2020 emergency authorisation. The FDA’s inspection officer noted: “The data integrity and verification portion of the BIMO [bioresearch monitoring] inspections were limited because the study was ongoing, and the data required for verification and comparison were not yet available to the IND [investigational new drug]."

Nowhere does it say "1/3 of it had issues". What it says is that 9 sites were inspected (out of 153). The 3 Ventavia sites, the ones in question, were not among those 9. What I'm trying to find is where that 9 sites and the above quote from the FDA came from. I can't find it and the author of the article doesn't list it in his references. 

I think it would hold more weight if someone could actually produce that document. Otherwise, I'm a little skeptical.

And btw, it's an article, not a study.
The only reason you're skeptical is a prestigious doctor isn't.

What prestigious doctor are you referring to?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 07, 2021, 09:14:47 PM
Dr. John Torres flat out lies concerning children.:

https://youtu.be/At-BI1KAUJw
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 07, 2021, 09:27:18 PM
Dr. John Torres flat out lies concerning children.:

What prestigious doctor are you referring to? There were no prestigious doctors mentioned in your previous posts. How can I be skeptical because a prestigious doctor isn't when no prestigious doctors were mentioned?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on November 08, 2021, 02:27:37 AM
Why not?
The 10th Amendment.

It is the duty of the federal government to ensure life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not invalidated.
No, it isn't. It's duty is to ensure no one is deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process.

And if a state has the power to ensure that the public is protected and healthy from a disease, then the federal government, which must manage trade and travel between states, can ensure the same as all states have interstate travel and trade.
And the federal government can make that argument in court, and they are likely going to lose.

I mean, Biden could just ban interstate travel if vaccines aren't a thing.  But... This seems like a better choice.
Biden cannot ban interstate travel or trade. What are you even talking about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 08, 2021, 05:01:17 AM
Biden cannot ban interstate travel or trade. What are you even talking about?

Kinda yes, kinda no. It's very murky territory regarding federal impositions on interstate travel.

"Emergency Powers

Both the President and the lead cabinet level agency, the Department of Health and Human Services, and the governors have powers in a public health emergency that conflict with and limit the right to travel.

Federal

The present federal coronavirus emergency relies on three separate authorities: the one declared by the President, both invoking Section 201 of the 1976 National Emergencies Act, and the Stafford Act; and the public health emergency declared in January by the Secretary of Health and Human Services under the 1944 Public Health Services Act (PHSA).

The PHSA authorities are the ones that have the most potential to impact interstate travel. While in the past, the powers used focused only on travelers into the United States, the operative language of PHSA also addresses travel between states.
"
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/salpal/the-right-to-travel-and-national-quarantines-coronavirus-tests-the-limits/

But obviously, anything along those lines would be contested in court.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on November 08, 2021, 08:29:57 AM
Some real world data to break Action80 and Tom Bishop microbrains

https://abc.net.au/news/2021-11-08/nsw-health-data-reveals-protection-covid-19-vaccine-gives/100603470

Quote
People in NSW who are not vaccinated against COVID-19 were 16 times more likely to die, or end up in intensive care during the state's Delta outbreak, new government data has revealed.

At the peak of the outbreak between August 25 and September 7, 49.5 per 100,000 fully vaccinated people were infected with the virus, compared with 561 per 100,000 unvaccinated people.

The data was collated by NSW Health and released today.

COVID ICU admissions or deaths peaked between September 8 and September 21, in just 0.9 per 100,000 fully vaccinated people, compared with 15.6 per 100,000 unvaccinated.

It means people who had not had a COVID-19 jab were 16 times more likely to die, or get so sick they needed the top level of hospital care.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 08, 2021, 11:23:23 AM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

"Mandate are quickly implemented to face a specific situation, limited in time. A law is a long-term rule, voted by the elected representatives, and that often take more time to be created. Both are enforceable by the police, but they respond to different situations."

"A mandate is defined as “the authority given to an elected group of people, such as a government, to perform an action or govern a country” (Cambridge Dictionary)...While they might not be laws, a mandate is still legally enforceable. In fact, they will often have the same effect as bills that have passed into law...Additionally, mandates can be as widespread."
https://alldifferences.com/difference-between-mandate-and-law/

Seems that mandates and laws are interchangeable and are differentiated more in terms of effect duration, temporary versus permanent.
A piece of trash source written by some hipster doofus isn't going to carry any water here.

Mandates and laws are not interchangeable in the least.

And the Supreme Court passed its ruling based on a state law, not a mandate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 08, 2021, 06:11:40 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

"Mandate are quickly implemented to face a specific situation, limited in time. A law is a long-term rule, voted by the elected representatives, and that often take more time to be created. Both are enforceable by the police, but they respond to different situations."

"A mandate is defined as “the authority given to an elected group of people, such as a government, to perform an action or govern a country” (Cambridge Dictionary)...While they might not be laws, a mandate is still legally enforceable. In fact, they will often have the same effect as bills that have passed into law...Additionally, mandates can be as widespread."
https://alldifferences.com/difference-between-mandate-and-law/

Seems that mandates and laws are interchangeable and are differentiated more in terms of effect duration, temporary versus permanent.
A piece of trash source written by some hipster doofus isn't going to carry any water here.

Mandates and laws are not interchangeable in the least.

And the Supreme Court passed its ruling based on a state law, not a mandate.

A law and a mandate have the same power to be enforced. The only difference is how it came to be.
A law is passed by the senate and the house of representatives and signed by the governor. A mandate is made by the governor, with the power given to them by the legislature in a state of emergency.

And who was that prestigious doctor you were referring to?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 09, 2021, 11:19:42 AM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

"Mandate are quickly implemented to face a specific situation, limited in time. A law is a long-term rule, voted by the elected representatives, and that often take more time to be created. Both are enforceable by the police, but they respond to different situations."

"A mandate is defined as “the authority given to an elected group of people, such as a government, to perform an action or govern a country” (Cambridge Dictionary)...While they might not be laws, a mandate is still legally enforceable. In fact, they will often have the same effect as bills that have passed into law...Additionally, mandates can be as widespread."
https://alldifferences.com/difference-between-mandate-and-law/

Seems that mandates and laws are interchangeable and are differentiated more in terms of effect duration, temporary versus permanent.
A piece of trash source written by some hipster doofus isn't going to carry any water here.

Mandates and laws are not interchangeable in the least.

And the Supreme Court passed its ruling based on a state law, not a mandate.

A law and a mandate have the same power to be enforced. The only difference is how it came to be.
A law is passed by the senate and the house of representatives and signed by the governor. A mandate is made by the governor, with the power given to them by the legislature in a state of emergency.

And who was that prestigious doctor you were referring to?
If they did, then the legislative part would be skipped and the mandate would be enacted as law, and police chiefs and sheriffs wouldn't issue statements about how the mandates will not be enforced.

Stop blubbering about crap you have no clue about.

The prestigious doctor certainly isn't you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 09, 2021, 10:00:06 PM
Victory in court!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59194421

As a temporary injunction by a  judge who apparently didn't see that this has already been settled over 100 years ago.

In 1905 the Supreme Court ruled that a state can mandate a vaccine for the benefit of public health even if it interfered with individual rights. (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905))
This, naturally, extends to the federal government, whose job it is to ensure "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Guess what vaccines fall under?
As usual, you have no clue concerning this issue.

At question in front of the Supreme Court was the issue of state law, not a mandate.

This decision doesn't extend to unlawful mandates.

Try again.

Neither do you, it seems.
The conclusion was that the state can impose mandates for public safety even if they infringe on individual rights.
Jesus...The conclusion was that STATE LAWS, not MANDATES, could be enforced.

"Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law..." did not violate the 14th Amendment.

Kindly point out in the decision anything referencing mandates, if you're so cocksure.

"Mandate are quickly implemented to face a specific situation, limited in time. A law is a long-term rule, voted by the elected representatives, and that often take more time to be created. Both are enforceable by the police, but they respond to different situations."

"A mandate is defined as “the authority given to an elected group of people, such as a government, to perform an action or govern a country” (Cambridge Dictionary)...While they might not be laws, a mandate is still legally enforceable. In fact, they will often have the same effect as bills that have passed into law...Additionally, mandates can be as widespread."
https://alldifferences.com/difference-between-mandate-and-law/

Seems that mandates and laws are interchangeable and are differentiated more in terms of effect duration, temporary versus permanent.
A piece of trash source written by some hipster doofus isn't going to carry any water here.

Mandates and laws are not interchangeable in the least.

And the Supreme Court passed its ruling based on a state law, not a mandate.

A law and a mandate have the same power to be enforced. The only difference is how it came to be.
A law is passed by the senate and the house of representatives and signed by the governor. A mandate is made by the governor, with the power given to them by the legislature in a state of emergency.

And who was that prestigious doctor you were referring to?
If they did, then the legislative part would be skipped and the mandate would be enacted as law, and police chiefs and sheriffs wouldn't issue statements about how the mandates will not be enforced.

A mandate is made by the governor, with the power given to them by the legislature in a state of emergency. When the emergency is over, the mandate goes away. With a law, it stays on the books until it is legislatively/voter repealed. The difference is duration, temp versus permanent, as shown to you before. I'm not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding something so simple.

And I guess there has never been an instance where a Sheriff refused to uphold a law?

Last fall, voters in Washington state approved a package of firearms restrictions, generally called I-1639. It raises the minimum age for buying semi-automatic rifles, tightens background checks and makes it a crime to fail to store a gun safely, if the gun ends up in the wrong hands.

The restrictions have raised the ire of some county sheriffs.

My plan is not to enforce it,” says Klickitat County Sheriff Bob Songer.

https://wamu.org/story/19/02/21/when-sheriffs-wont-enforce-the-law/

What a woefully ignorant and pitiful argument.

The prestigious doctor certainly isn't you.

So you lied about a "prestigious doctor" being cited. Got it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 09, 2021, 10:41:28 PM
So, you finally understand mandates are not law.

Good.

And yes, no one has ever credited you or cited your writing as you are not a prestigious doctor or even a run of the mill lawyer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 10, 2021, 12:44:28 AM
So, you finally understand mandates are not law.

Good.

I never said mandates and laws are the same thing. I exhaustively explained and showed how they have the same impact and are both enforceable. One is temporary and one is permanent (until repealed), but they both carry the same weight. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

What's even more hilarious is your argument that "and police chiefs and sheriffs wouldn't issue statements about how the mandates will not be enforced." Laughably, perhaps blissfully, ignorant.

And yes, no one has ever credited you or cited your writing as you are not a prestigious doctor or even a run of the mill lawyer.

And yep, understood - You never had a prestigious doctor to point to even though you said you did. Good work on completely making things up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 10, 2021, 07:41:16 AM
So, you finally understand mandates are not law.

Good.

I never said mandates and laws are the same thing. I exhaustively explained and showed how they have the same impact and are both enforceable. One is temporary and one is permanent (until repealed), but they both carry the same weight. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

What's even more hilarious is your argument that "and police chiefs and sheriffs wouldn't issue statements about how the mandates will not be enforced." Laughably, perhaps blissfully, ignorant.

And yes, no one has ever credited you or cited your writing as you are not a prestigious doctor or even a run of the mill lawyer.

And yep, understood - You never had a prestigious doctor to point to even though you said you did. Good work on completely making things up.
The federal court judge knows better.

I know you are terribly distressed over this, but too bad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on November 10, 2021, 11:49:17 AM
The 5th circuit is known for having an activist bent and I’ve seen a few lawyers comment that the rationale for the decision wasn’t very rational. It seems like it could go either way on appeal.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on November 10, 2021, 01:18:18 PM
The 5th circuit is known for having an activist bent and I’ve seen a few lawyers comment that the rationale for the decision wasn’t very rational. It seems like it could go either way on appeal.
Pro-fascist lawyers labeling things as "... activist tendencies of courts," when things don't go their way is unsurprising.

Further, the 5th circuit merely cited officials at OSHA in justifying the reason for the decision.

OSHA admitted it cannot justify the mandate based on the science.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on November 13, 2021, 02:34:31 AM
Latvia is banning lawmakers from taking their seats unless they get vaccinated.

Quote from: https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/12/latvia-bans-unvaccinated-mps-from-voting-and-suspends-pay
Latvian MPs who have not been vaccinated or recovered from COVID-19 will have their pay suspended and no longer be able to take part in parliamentary votes.

MPs approved the measure in a vote on Friday with 62 votes in favour in the 100-seat parliament.

"From November 15, an MP will be entitled to participate in the work of the Saeima [Latvia's Parliament] only if he or she has presented an interoperable COVID-19 certificate confirming the fact of vaccination or illness," the statement from the parliament press office states.

"The payment of a monthly salary and compensation will be suspended for a Saeima MP who will not be entitled to participate in the work of the parliament," it adds.

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. Latvia does have a very low vaccination rate, so some measures are clearly necessary, but deciding who can participate in the political process based on how they lean on a politically charged issue is not great for democracy, to say the least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 15, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 15, 2021, 07:39:10 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on November 15, 2021, 07:57:40 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

What's wrong with the notion of booster shots?

Are you fully vaxxed against Tetanus? Whooping cough? Right after your jab for a number of years you can feel confident that you wouldn't get deathly ill but if your last dose was 10 years ago you might need to worry. Same with thus corona virus. Immunity wanes. Right after your first 2 doses you can be confident but leave it too long and you're not in a good place immunity wise. It's how your immune system works. How can you be so old, but be so clueless?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 15, 2021, 11:00:06 PM
What's wrong with the notion of booster shots?

Are you fully vaxxed against Tetanus? Whooping cough? Right after your jab for a number of years you can feel confident that you wouldn't get deathly ill but if your last dose was 10 years ago you might need to worry. Same with thus corona virus. Immunity wanes. Right after your first 2 doses you can be confident but leave it too long and you're not in a good place immunity wise. It's how your immune system works. How can you be so old, but be so clueless?

Actually I didn't say anything about the insufficiencies of any other vaccine. If you thought that you would be fully vaccinated from other vaccines you are also a dummie.

I am pointing out that many people thought that they would be fully vaxxed from their shots when in reality they would need to take boosters for the rest of their lives. We can see that you were likely one of these people, considering how triggered you were at that post.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 15, 2021, 11:17:05 PM
What's wrong with the notion of booster shots?

Are you fully vaxxed against Tetanus? Whooping cough? Right after your jab for a number of years you can feel confident that you wouldn't get deathly ill but if your last dose was 10 years ago you might need to worry. Same with thus corona virus. Immunity wanes. Right after your first 2 doses you can be confident but leave it too long and you're not in a good place immunity wise. It's how your immune system works. How can you be so old, but be so clueless?

Actually I didn't say anything about the insufficiencies of any other vaccine. If you thought that you would be fully vaccinated from other vaccines you are also a dummie.

I am pointing out that many people thought that they would be fully vaxxed from their shots when in reality they would need to take boosters for the rest of their lives. We can see that you were likely one of these people, considering how triggered you were at that post.

Same with the Flu shot I imagine.

Doesn't really change the equation of once you're fully vaxxed you have a decidedly less likely chance of ending up in the hospital or dead than if no vaxx at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on November 15, 2021, 11:25:40 PM
What's wrong with the notion of booster shots?

Are you fully vaxxed against Tetanus? Whooping cough? Right after your jab for a number of years you can feel confident that you wouldn't get deathly ill but if your last dose was 10 years ago you might need to worry. Same with thus corona virus. Immunity wanes. Right after your first 2 doses you can be confident but leave it too long and you're not in a good place immunity wise. It's how your immune system works. How can you be so old, but be so clueless?

Actually I didn't say anything about the insufficiencies of any other vaccine. If you thought that you would be fully vaccinated from other vaccines you are also a dummie.

I am pointing out that many people thought that they would be fully vaxxed from their shots when in reality they would need to take boosters for the rest of their lives. We can see that you were likely one of these people, considering how triggered you were at that post.

How many people thought they would be “fully vaxxed” after the two doses?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on November 16, 2021, 03:17:33 AM
I always figured this would never be a one and done deal. I don't give an F getting a shot every 6 months if that's the case. No different to your influenza shot and that isn't as deadly or could cause permanent damage so easily

How's your diet Tom? Do you eat processed foods? Added sugars? Sweeteners? Preservatives? Have you ever smoked? Drank a little too much? Ever gone outside and smelled the pollution of traffic?

People inhale or ingest that shit every day. And any one of those is orders of magnitude worse than a vaccine dose. At least the vaccine dose comes with the pay-off that it could save your life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 21, 2021, 11:14:56 AM
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/11/the-mass-exodus-of-americas-health-care-workers/620713/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

This is a really good article.
It talks about how many medical professionals are leaving in droves and why.  Its about hospitals choosing 'travel nurses' for higher pay vs staff nurses at a good pay and benefits.

Its about the struggle of seeing surges of COVID then surges of non-covid care, then surges of covid again.
Its about unvaccinated patients attacking the very people trying to keep them alive.

And its about being powerless as you watch thousands die, the bodies piling up in trucks because they ran out of body bags.   Of watching coworkers die because their hospital didn't provide them with proper equipment.  Of seeing people with long term effects from COVID because they chose to get together for a family dinner.
All of this even after the vaccine became available. 



Read it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Kangaroony on November 28, 2021, 04:11:25 PM
...I am pointing out that many people thought that they would be fully vaxxed from their shots when in reality they would need to take boosters for the rest of their lives. We can see that you were likely one of these people, considering how triggered you were at that post.

I thought we only needed one booster after our "original" two shots?   Or possibly others if
or when Coronavirus mutated over time.  I haven't seen it reported that we'd need boosters
for the "rest of our lives".

Links please.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 28, 2021, 06:40:48 PM
...I am pointing out that many people thought that they would be fully vaxxed from their shots when in reality they would need to take boosters for the rest of their lives. We can see that you were likely one of these people, considering how triggered you were at that post.

I thought we only needed one booster after our "original" two shots?   Or possibly others if
or when Coronavirus mutated over time.  I haven't seen it reported that we'd need boosters
for the "rest of our lives".

Links please.
Honestly, with the new Omnicron varient, we probably will.
Becaues of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on November 28, 2021, 10:46:32 PM

Honestly, with the new Omnicron varient, we probably will
Becaues of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.
1) We do not yet know how Omnicron reacts to the current vaccines.
2) Mutation is a natural by product of replication.  So the more replication the more chances of mutation.  The vaccines greatly reduce replication as they beat back the infection so much faster. We can wipe out the disease entirely if we  just administered vaccines to everyone..  It is a huge failing of the modern world that while we have produced the vaccines that could have stopped Covid by now if we just vaccinated the world, but the west has not vaccinated nearly enough of their own populations let alone made good on our promises to get vaccines to the poor.  No one is safe unless everyone everywhere is safe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on November 29, 2021, 12:45:12 AM

Honestly, with the new Omnicron varient, we probably will
Becaues of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.
1) We do not yet know how Omnicron reacts to the current vaccines.
2) Mutation is a natural by product of replication.  So the more replication the more chances of mutation.  The vaccines greatly reduce replication as they beat back the infection so much faster. We can wipe out the disease entirely if we  just administered vaccines to everyone..  It is a huge failing of the modern world that while we have produced the vaccines that could have stopped Covid by now if we just vaccinated the world, but the west has not vaccinated nearly enough of their own populations let alone made good on our promises to get vaccines to the poor.  No one is safe unless everyone everywhere is safe.

I bet that pharma companies don't mind covid being an omnipresent threat - maybe vaccines are a good cash cow right now.

For the good of humanity you would think they could release the patents and allow developing countries to manufacture their own. Not every vaccine that has worked requires uber cold storage. Australia had astrazenica pumping out a million doses worth a week. We shut it down because we didn't need it anymore. Disgraceful.

But continents like Africa ensure we continue to get mutated varients. One day enough to require an updated vaccine. Good for their companies bottom line, not so good for millions of victims
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on November 29, 2021, 04:24:53 AM
I bet that pharma companies don't mind covid being an omnipresent threat - maybe vaccines are a good cash cow right now.

For the good of humanity you would think they could release the patents and allow developing countries to manufacture their own. Not every vaccine that has worked requires uber cold storage. Australia had astrazenica pumping out a million doses worth a week. We shut it down because we didn't need it anymore. Disgraceful.

But continents like Africa ensure we continue to get mutated varients. One day enough to require an updated vaccine. Good for their companies bottom line, not so good for millions of victims
I agree.  It's really a question time.  The patent holders can not possibly make enough to vaccinate the world in a timely manner.  Big Pharma is not participating in the African market and does not seem likely to do so any time soon.  Why not let a market you ave not addressing nor likely to address anyway be fulfilled in another way (make it themselves) and get great press and a huge tax deduction?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 29, 2021, 07:37:40 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Nope. You aren't Omicron vaxxed.

Becaues of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.
You realise that coronavirus infects wild animals that can re-infect humans again, right? No one ever ever said we could eradicate coronavirus. You made that up in your own head. You are blaming Tom for things you imagine now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 29, 2021, 07:47:53 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Nope. You aren't Omicron vaxxed.

Do you have some sort of direct line to the researchers around the world trying to determine how transmissible and how severe illness could be from Omicron and the efficacy of current vax's against it? Apparently, you know something no one else on the planet knows yet. Delusions of grandeur?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 29, 2021, 07:56:53 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Nope. You aren't Omicron vaxxed.

Do you have some sort of direct line to the researchers around the world trying to determine how transmissible and how severe illness could be from Omicron and the efficacy of current vax's against it? Apparently, you know something no one else on the planet knows yet. Delusions of grandeur?
If being able to read is a 'delusion of grandeur', sure.

My government already told us how it wishes to strip us of our civil liberties using omicron as the excuse. And they don't give a crap if you're vaccinated or not. We all get treated as 'not'.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/29/new-covid-rules-uk-omicron-variant-tests-face-masks-christmas/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 29, 2021, 08:00:52 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Nope. You aren't Omicron vaxxed.

Becaues of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.
You realise that coronavirus infects wild animals that can re-infect humans again, right? No one ever ever said we could eradicate coronavirus. You made that up in your own head. You are blaming Tom for things you imagine now.
Eh.  Technically the Corona virus has been around for decades.  But I was more referring to it as a constant and large threat moreso than "total eradication".
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 29, 2021, 08:04:22 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Nope. You aren't Omicron vaxxed.

Becaues of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.
You realise that coronavirus infects wild animals that can re-infect humans again, right? No one ever ever said we could eradicate coronavirus. You made that up in your own head. You are blaming Tom for things you imagine now.
Eh.  Technically the Corona virus has been around for decades.  But I was more referring to it as a constant and large threat moreso than "total eradication".
Its going to stay a constant threat for as long as people are fat as fuck. When people start making sensible health choices, less will be in danger from coronavirus and restrictions will ease. That will likely never happen because most people are lazy and stupid. But that isn't Tom's fault.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 29, 2021, 08:15:06 PM
lol @ anyone who thought that they were, or ever would be, fully vaxxed

(https://i.imgur.com/z6UCd2k.png)

I guess I'm fully vaxxed now. Cool.
Nope. You aren't Omicron vaxxed.

Do you have some sort of direct line to the researchers around the world trying to determine how transmissible and how severe illness could be from Omicron and the efficacy of current vax's against it? Apparently, you know something no one else on the planet knows yet. Delusions of grandeur?
If being able to read is a 'delusion of grandeur', sure.

My government already told us how it wishes to strip us of our civil liberties using omicron as the excuse. And they don't give a crap if you're vaccinated or not. We all get treated as 'not'.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/29/new-covid-rules-uk-omicron-variant-tests-face-masks-christmas/

Apparently, you missed a bit from your article:

"We don't yet exactly know how effective our vaccines will be against omicron but we have good reasons for believing they will provide at least some measure of protection.
"If you're boosted, your response is likely to be stronger so it's more vital than ever that people get their jabs and we get those boosters into arms as fast as possible."


You stated I'm not vaxxed against Omicron. How would you know? And what does your claim that somehow you know vax's don't work for Omicron have anything to do with your government stripping you of your civil liberties?

Do you know something about Omicron that no one else does?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on November 29, 2021, 08:24:49 PM
Its going to stay a constant threat for as long as people are fat as fuck. When people start making sensible health choices, less will be in danger from coronavirus and restrictions will ease. That will likely never happen because most people are lazy and stupid. But that isn't Tom's fault.
There is indeed a correlation between a higher BMI and more sever illness (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/03/10/obesity-coronavirus (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/03/10/obesity-coronavirus)) among those who received a COVID diagnosis.  But no correlation has been found (that I am aware of or that you have posted) between BMI and the likelihood of getting infected or BMI and vaccine effectiveness.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 29, 2021, 09:05:04 PM
Fun fact: if you can't pay enough attention to spell a word you hadn't encountered before (it's omicron, not omnicron, you absolute dolts), you probably hadn't paid enough attention to understand what you're discussing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 29, 2021, 09:25:58 PM
Apparently, you missed a bit from your article:

"We don't yet exactly know how effective our vaccines will be against omicron but we have good reasons for believing they will provide at least some measure of protection.
"If you're boosted, your response is likely to be stronger so it's more vital than ever that people get their jabs and we get those boosters into arms as fast as possible."


You stated I'm not vaxxed against Omicron. How would you know? And what does your claim that somehow you know vax's don't work for Omicron have anything to do with your government stripping you of your civil liberties?

Do you know something about Omicron that no one else does?
??? No one cares about the facts. Least of all, governments. How will you be TREATED now we have a new variant? Answer: As though you haven't been vaccinated again. Go put on your masks, work from home and live exactly like you did before the 'world saving' vaccines were developed.

Its going to stay a constant threat for as long as people are fat as fuck. When people start making sensible health choices, less will be in danger from coronavirus and restrictions will ease. That will likely never happen because most people are lazy and stupid. But that isn't Tom's fault.
There is indeed a correlation between a higher BMI and more sever illness (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/03/10/obesity-coronavirus (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/03/10/obesity-coronavirus)) among those who received a COVID diagnosis.  But no correlation has been found (that I am aware of or that you have posted) between BMI and the likelihood of getting infected or BMI and vaccine effectiveness.   
So what? If people are healthy and covid poses no risk, we don't have to have all the drama-filled restrictions that go with that. We've had almost 2 years to get people fitter, eating better and looking after themselves and we have done zero. The message is stay at home on your fat arse and wait for science to save you. It's a pretty shitty message.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on November 29, 2021, 10:29:09 PM
So what? If people are healthy and covid poses no risk, we don't have to have all the drama-filled restrictions that go with that. We've had almost 2 years to get people fitter, eating better and looking after themselves and we have done zero. The message is stay at home on your fat arse and wait for science to save you. It's a pretty shitty message.
Nothing in that paper indicates that COVID is "no risk" to healthy fit people.  Only that it is MORE of a risk for obese folks.   I don't know what messaging you are getting but I see a constant stream of fitness exhortations from many sources (along with plenty from the other side we well).  Just how would you propose that the government go about this task of getting everyone fit?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 29, 2021, 10:55:44 PM
Apparently, you missed a bit from your article:

"We don't yet exactly know how effective our vaccines will be against omicron but we have good reasons for believing they will provide at least some measure of protection.
"If you're boosted, your response is likely to be stronger so it's more vital than ever that people get their jabs and we get those boosters into arms as fast as possible."


You stated I'm not vaxxed against Omicron. How would you know? And what does your claim that somehow you know vax's don't work for Omicron have anything to do with your government stripping you of your civil liberties?

Do you know something about Omicron that no one else does?
??? No one cares about the facts. Least of all, governments. How will you be TREATED now we have a new variant? Answer: As though you haven't been vaccinated again. Go put on your masks, work from home and live exactly like you did before the 'world saving' vaccines were developed.

From your article:

The new restrictions are as follows:

    - Anyone arriving in the UK will be asked to take a PCR test for Covid-19 by the second day and must self-isolate until they provide a negative test.
    - All contacts of people who do test positive with the suspected variant will have to self-isolate for 10 days. The Government confirmed that this applies to children.
    - The rules on face coverings are changing. They will become compulsory on public transport and in shops from next week, but not including hospitality. Teachers and pupils in Year 7 and above are now being "strongly advised" to wear masks in communal areas outside classrooms in England.


So you have to wear masks in shops and you get tested when arriving in the UK? Is that really that burdensome for you? Seems like a fair precaution not knowing whether this variant is worse than Delta or not. Where's the mandatory work from home bit?

Or do you know something about Omicron that no else does? You're acting like you do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 29, 2021, 11:01:55 PM
Just how would you propose that the government go about this task of getting everyone fit?

Ban multipacks of crisps, sweets and cakes. You have to buy everything individually. No BOGOF deals or discounting of any sort allowed.
Change the weights. Every bag of crisps max 40 grams. Every chocolate bar or bag of sweets, max 40g.
Soft drinks only to be sold individually. You can only buy cans. Can size reduced from 330ml to 250ml.
Now I have the portions under control each sweet or crisps or soft drink is a treat. 3 treats a day for a man, 2 for a woman, 1 for children under twelve as a guideline. 20g half treats can now be a thing.
No VAT on exercise equipment, training gear or training memberships.
Annual fitness check costing £50. If you are deemed in great shape, you get a massive reduction on your national insurance reflecting your risk to the NHS. Sliding scale. Fatties get hammered for taxes.
Proper cycle lanes everywhere. Smooth, no cars. Then make companies install a shower at work by law for every 15 employees, they have to make sure people can freshen up after commuting to work.
Start a culture war against the big is beautiful brigade. Vilify fat people. Use shame.
Place strong metal bars in the doorway of every fast food shop and bakery, spaced 8 inches apart. If you can't squeeze through the gap, you can't go in to buy anything.
Fast food delivery made illegal. You want to eat shit, get off your fat arse and go and get it. I hope you can get through the 8 inch bars or you better learn to cook.
Cooking lessons mandatory in schools until the age of 18.
TV and streaming services shut down at midnight to make sure people get a proper night's sleep.
Doctors retrained to ensure they only give drugs to people who actually need them. Doctors handing out too many drugs get struck off.

Vote Thork for a better healthier future where personal responsibility is heaped upon the individual.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 30, 2021, 05:32:03 AM
You want your government to mandate all of that, but you think government mask mandates are an overreach?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 30, 2021, 08:51:57 AM
Thork: policing happens by consent and we will take that consent away at a moment's notice. Veev la rey-vo-loo-shun!
Also Thork: let's destroy modern society because I dislike fat people

Thork: Personal responsibility is great
Also Thork: TV curfews at midnight!!1!! We can't trust people to manage their time!!1!!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on November 30, 2021, 10:36:36 AM
You want your government to mandate all of that, but you think government mask mandates are an overreach?

You have to look at it from his perspective.
If he isn't affected, its not overreach.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 30, 2021, 01:37:40 PM
You want your government to mandate all of that, but you think government mask mandates are an overreach?

You have to look at it from his perspective.
If he isn't affected, its not overreach.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I'm not someone who needs health policing. I look after myself. It is why I get so annoyed when a guy who looks like he could die at any minute starts issuing mandates. Shitty mandates at that.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/dda55e8a2f843f2f4da2924db029059f070e8812/107_296_3393_2037/master/3393.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=0fd66c86a51e37df82e3528c84d48ac6)
^This is a man who never exercises. Ever. A man with poor sleep hygiene. A man with a dreadful diet who is flushed red with his sky high blood pressure. A man who dives into his medicine cabinet every time he picks up a sniffle and fills himself with drugs. I don't want a man like that giving me health advice. He knows fuck all about health. Look at him.

I'm healthy. If people lived a little more like me, we wouldn't have all these health issues. And so yes, if you want to treat your body badly and go outside of what is sensible, then you need to be picking up the bill if we have socialised health care. You need higher premiums. Your premiums are low because people like me aren't accessing the services. I'm paying for you.

So you have to wear masks in shops and you get tested when arriving in the UK? Is that really that burdensome for you? Seems like a fair precaution not knowing whether this variant is worse than Delta or not. Where's the mandatory work from home bit?

Or do you know something about Omicron that no else does? You're acting like you do.
I know that this variant cannot be allowed to just pass without action. It is a great opportunity for government. They must maintain the fear. They must maintain the mantra that citizens need them.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59426353
European stock markets have fallen after the boss of Moderna cast doubts on the effectiveness of vaccines against the new Omicron Covid variant.
^Oh, that's very very convenient. Yup, that'll keep people subservient until February.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 30, 2021, 05:39:22 PM
You want your government to mandate all of that, but you think government mask mandates are an overreach?

You have to look at it from his perspective.
If he isn't affected, its not overreach.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I'm not someone who needs health policing. I look after myself. It is why I get so annoyed when a guy who looks like he could die at any minute starts issuing mandates. Shitty mandates at that.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/dda55e8a2f843f2f4da2924db029059f070e8812/107_296_3393_2037/master/3393.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=0fd66c86a51e37df82e3528c84d48ac6)
^This is a man who never exercises. Ever. A man with poor sleep hygiene. A man with a dreadful diet who is flushed red with his sky high blood pressure. A man who dives into his medicine cabinet every time he picks up a sniffle and fills himself with drugs. I don't want a man like that giving me health advice. He knows fuck all about health. Look at him.

I'm healthy. If people lived a little more like me, we wouldn't have all these health issues. And so yes, if you want to treat your body badly and go outside of what is sensible, then you need to be picking up the bill if we have socialised health care. You need higher premiums. Your premiums are low because people like me aren't accessing the services. I'm paying for you.

So that's Chris Witty, kinda the UK's version of the US's Fauci?

How do you know so much about his exercise & sleep regime and his diet? Or that he over medicates himself? You seem to have this inside track of information about virus strains and health practices of UK officials that no one else seems to have - How do you do it?

So you have to wear masks in shops and you get tested when arriving in the UK? Is that really that burdensome for you? Seems like a fair precaution not knowing whether this variant is worse than Delta or not. Where's the mandatory work from home bit?

Or do you know something about Omicron that no else does? You're acting like you do.
I know that this variant cannot be allowed to just pass without action. It is a great opportunity for government. They must maintain the fear. They must maintain the mantra that citizens need them.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59426353
European stock markets have fallen after the boss of Moderna cast doubts on the effectiveness of vaccines against the new Omicron Covid variant.
^Oh, that's very very convenient. Yup, that'll keep people subservient until February.

Wearing a mask is "subservient", and the government is stoking fear. Yet your mandates, banning chips, metal bars in front of shops only allowing the emaciated to get in, no TV after midnight, vilifying fat people, that's at all not subservient and stoking government fear? What's the government penalty for eating banned, contraband chips in your new world order?  I thought you were against most government intervention in people's personal lives. Now you seem super gung-ho at the government peering into your cabinets and checking your scale and penalizing you accordingly. What a bizarre thorkian twist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 30, 2021, 05:52:51 PM
Wearing a mask is "subservient", and the government is stoking fear. Yet your mandates, banning chips, metal bars in front of shops only allowing the emaciated to get in, no TV after midnight, vilifying fat people, that's at all not subservient and stoking government fear? What's the government penalty for eating banned, contraband chips in your new world order?  I thought you were against most government intervention in people's personal lives. Now you seem super gung-ho at the government peering into your cabinets and checking your scale and penalizing you accordingly. What a bizarre thorkian twist.

None of my laws were laws against the public. That is the difference. all of my laws were laws at corporations that have made people sick in the last 60 years.

Changing weights and measures of sweets dictates to a corporation ... but they already have all kinds of laws like you have to metal detect your goods and weigh them before you can sell them. I'm adding corporate nudging to change lifestyles.
If Netflix must shut between midnight and 8am ... how is that different to any other shop having trading hours?
Putting bars on a shop to make sure only slimmer people can enter for their own safety and health is no different to putting a height restriction on people wanting to use a rollercoaster. And again, it's the shop that is being mandated at ... not the public.
School is compulsory anyway. Why would making the lessons in it such as cooking or sports be any more draconian.

Every suggestion forced corporations to make the changes. Our government never takes on corporations. Instead they want to force me into being vaccinated, force me to wear a mask, force me to work from home, force me to self isolate. Governments attack people and their sovereignty. I would have gone after the corporations instead because a corporation is a legal entity but it doesn't have feelings. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 30, 2021, 06:32:54 PM
Wearing a mask is "subservient", and the government is stoking fear. Yet your mandates, banning chips, metal bars in front of shops only allowing the emaciated to get in, no TV after midnight, vilifying fat people, that's at all not subservient and stoking government fear? What's the government penalty for eating banned, contraband chips in your new world order?  I thought you were against most government intervention in people's personal lives. Now you seem super gung-ho at the government peering into your cabinets and checking your scale and penalizing you accordingly. What a bizarre thorkian twist.

None of my laws were laws against the public. That is the difference. all of my laws were laws at corporations that have made people sick in the last 60 years.

Changing weights and measures of sweets dictates to a corporation ... but they already have all kinds of laws like you have to metal detect your goods and weigh them before you can sell them. I'm adding corporate nudging to change lifestyles.
If Netflix must shut between midnight and 8am ... how is that different to any other shop having trading hours?
Putting bars on a shop to make sure only slimmer people can enter for their own safety and health is no different to putting a height restriction on people wanting to use a rollercoaster. And again, it's the shop that is being mandated at ... not the public.
School is compulsory anyway. Why would making the lessons in it such as cooking or sports be any more draconian.

Every suggestion forced corporations to make the changes. Our government never takes on corporations. Instead they want to force me into being vaccinated, force me to wear a mask, force me to work from home, force me to self isolate. Governments attack people and their sovereignty. I would have gone after the corporations instead because a corporation is a legal entity but it doesn't have feelings.

Actually, they are all against the corporations and the public .

- What if I make my own chips and am eating them in public? Does a cop come up and bust me for eating contraband chips? I'm an individual, not a corporation. But now I have to spend 10 days in the hole and pay a fine for being in possession of illegal fried potato strips.
- I'm a small independent single-owner shop keeper. I'm going to put bars up to only let the slim get in - What if someone just wants to buy some shampoo, toothpaste, and toilet paper, but they are too portly to squeeze in? What if I decide not to put bars up? Am I fined, imprisoned? I'm just a person, not a corporation.
- I have no problem with compulsory cooking lessons. But then you are now going to have to mandate what a cooking teacher can cook as far as recipes go. Have fun with that.
- Shutting down TV? What's next, you're going to have corporations shut down internet access between those times too? Where does it stop? What if I'm swing-shift, work evenings, nights? I can't watch TV when I get home from work? The government is now denying access to information - That seems pretty draconian to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 30, 2021, 06:52:31 PM
- What if I make my own chips and am eating them in public?
I'm not stopping you.

Does a cop come up and bust me for eating contraband chips?
No, I made a change to weights and measures. what you do in your own home is up to you. 

I'm an individual, not a corporation. But now I have to spend 10 days in the hole and pay a fine for being in possession of illegal fried potato strips.
You aren't selling potato chips. Therefore, you can serve them out in any quantity you like. But if you want to sell them to the public ... 40g bags please.

- I'm a small independent single-owner shop keeper. I'm going to put bars up to only let the slim get in - What if someone just wants to buy some shampoo, toothpaste, and toilet paper, but they are too portly to squeeze in?
I only applied the law to fast food outlets and bakeries. McDonalds don't sell shampoo to the best of my knowledge.

What if I decide not to put bars up? Am I fined, imprisoned? I'm just a person, not a corporation.
If you are a business owner, sure. You can be imprisoned for not complying with the law. That's pretty much how life is anyway.

- I have no problem with compulsory cooking lessons. But then you are now going to have to mandate what a cooking teacher can cook as far as recipes go. Have fun with that.
Its called a syllabus. If you can mandate what kids learn in History class, you can mandate which basic meals they should learn to cook.

- Shutting down TV? What's next, you're going to have corporations shut down internet access between those times too?
I didn't say that, did I? Mindlessly binge-watching box sets of shitty US sitcoms until 3am isn't the same as checking your facebook before you go to bed.

Where does it stop? What if I'm swing-shift, work evenings, nights?
Then you will be used to things being shut when you are working.  ::)

I can't watch TV when I get home from work? The government is now denying access to information - That seems pretty draconian to me.
Turning off Netflix is no different to making sure the pubs shut at closing time. No, you cannot drink until 4am on a Tuesday, and no, you can't stay up all night watching Squid Game. You've got work tomorrow. If you can't be an adult, my government will help steer you in the right direction and will do it by preventing corporations from leading you astray.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 30, 2021, 08:01:01 PM
- What if I make my own chips and am eating them in public?
I'm not stopping you.
So it's not illegal like me cooking my own meth?

Does a cop come up and bust me for eating contraband chips?
No, I made a change to weights and measures. what you do in your own home is up to you. 

I'm not in my own house, I'm munching on a street corner.

I'm an individual, not a corporation. But now I have to spend 10 days in the hole and pay a fine for being in possession of illegal fried potato strips.
You aren't selling potato chips. Therefore, you can serve them out in any quantity you like. But if you want to sell them to the public ... 40g bags please.

So if I sell them at 41g a bag, I'm busted? What's the penalty? I'm just an individual, how is that a corporate thing?

- I'm a small independent single-owner shop keeper. I'm going to put bars up to only let the slim get in - What if someone just wants to buy some shampoo, toothpaste, and toilet paper, but they are too portly to squeeze in?
I only applied the law to fast food outlets and bakeries. McDonalds don't sell shampoo to the best of my knowledge.

I sell fast-food type items and baked goods in my little old corner store. Along with shampoo, toothpaste, and toilet paper. I'm not a corporation.

What if I decide not to put bars up? Am I fined, imprisoned? I'm just a person, not a corporation.
If you are a business owner, sure. You can be imprisoned for not complying with the law. That's pretty much how life is anyway.

I'm not a corporation, I'm an individual. How is this only corporate oriented?

- I have no problem with compulsory cooking lessons. But then you are now going to have to mandate what a cooking teacher can cook as far as recipes go. Have fun with that.
Its called a syllabus. If you can mandate what kids learn in History class, you can mandate which basic meals they should learn to cook.

Like I said, have fun with that. Who mandates what the approved recipes are? Some may say vegan is the only healthy diet that should be taught. Some may say keto. Who decides?

- Shutting down TV? What's next, you're going to have corporations shut down internet access between those times too?
I didn't say that, did I? Mindlessly binge-watching box sets of shitty US sitcoms until 3am isn't the same as checking your facebook before you go to bed.

I know you didn't say that, but where does it stop? I mindlessly binge-watch plenty of shitty US sitcoms on my computer via the internet at 3 AM. Are you going to stop me from doing that?

Where does it stop? What if I'm swing-shift, work evenings, nights?
Then you will be used to things being shut when you are working.  ::)

So now you are taking something away from me because you don't like shitty US sitcoms? You disapprove of the content and are saving me from myself. You're worse than any existing mandate and basically acting as thought police.

I can't watch TV when I get home from work? The government is now denying access to information - That seems pretty draconian to me.
Turning off Netflix is no different to making sure the pubs shut at closing time. No, you cannot drink until 4am on a Tuesday, and no, you can't stay up all night watching Squid Game. You've got work tomorrow. If you can't be an adult, my government will help steer you in the right direction and will do it by preventing corporations from leading you astray.

So now you've defined adult behavior as not watching content in the wee hours in my own home? What if I don't have work tomorrow? Saturday and all. What if I said I found public swimming facilities a cesspool of bacteria and we apparently don't have the necessary means of properly maintaining them with adequate standards and governmental resources for safety testing and mitigation measures. So we are now shutting them all down. And bicycling has been deemed very dangerous. The health benefits don't outweigh the amount of infrastructure and resource needs, e.g., bike lane construction/maintenance, health services, etc. So, bicycling has been banned. Because that's my decision based upon my health benefits assessment.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 30, 2021, 08:28:56 PM
- What if I make my own chips and am eating them in public?
I'm not stopping you.
So it's not illegal like me cooking my own meth?
I haven't made eating crisps illegal. I have only made selling them in denominations other than 40g illegal. Unless you own a crisp factory, you're fine.

Does a cop come up and bust me for eating contraband chips?
No, I made a change to weights and measures. what you do in your own home is up to you. 

I'm not in my own house, I'm munching on a street corner.
I don't care. I'm not after you. I'm after the corporations. That's the whole point. I legislated at businesses, not people.

So if I sell them at 41g a bag, I'm busted? What's the penalty? I'm just an individual, how is that a corporate thing?
If you are selling them, you are a business. Otherwise it is illegal as you aren't paying taxes.
Quote from: https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/weights-and-measures
Nearly all measurable goods must have their quantities stated in metric amounts - for example, kilograms, litres or metres. Note that the pint must be used for draught beer, lager and cider; milk in returnable bottles may also be sold by the pint.

Equivalent 'imperial' quantities - such as pounds, ounces, pints and yards - can be given in addition to the required metric indications, but they must not be more prominent.

Some products have to be sold in particular quantities:

unwrapped loaves of bread without any weight indication given: 400 g or 800 g or any other multiple of 400 g
beer, lager and cider: 1⁄3 pint, 1⁄2 pint, 2⁄3 pint or multiples of 1⁄2 pint
wine: 125 ml, 175 ml or multiples of 125 ml or 175 ml
whisky, gin, rum or vodka: 25 ml or 35 ml or multiples of 25 ml or 35 ml
For detailed information, check the specific In-depth Guides below for the items you sell.
I'm only adding to laws that already exist. This isn't revolutionary. It is common sense.

I sell fast-food type items and baked goods in my little old corner store. Along with shampoo, toothpaste, and toilet paper. I'm not a corporation.
You get the bars. If it hurts your business, remove the bars and remove the fast food. This is like complaining that you own a petrol station and are not allowed to sell pints of beer as well as petrol.

I'm not a corporation, I'm an individual. How is this only corporate oriented?
All the laws are aimed at companies who sell a service that is bad for you. I'm not saying "You can't go on a train without a mask on  >o<". I'm saying Mars can't sell you a Mars bar that weighs 90g.

Like I said, have fun with that. Who mandates what the approved recipes are? Some may say vegan is the only healthy diet that should be taught. Some may say keto. Who decides?
In the UK, Ofsted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofsted) approve the recipes. they report to parliament.

I know you didn't say that, but where does it stop? I mindlessly binge-watch plenty of shitty US sitcoms on my computer via the internet at 3 AM. Are you going to stop me from doing that?
I'm going to stop streaming services from providing that service. You can do what you like. Maybe you will use a VPN? But my nudging stopped millions of people ... not all people, but millions from staying up all night watching trash TV.

So now you are taking something away from me because you don't like shitty US sitcoms? You disapprove of the content and are saving me from myself. You're worse than any existing mandate and basically acting as thought police.
No, you can watch shitty sitcoms. But not at 3am. This isn't hard. You can't buy a beer at 3am either. The pubs are shut by law. I am only stipulating the hours at which they companies can offer their services. That is very common already. Construction companies are not allowed to operate near built up areas all through the night. Most airports have to stop operating at night. I'm asking streaming companies to do the same.

So now you've defined adult behavior as not watching content in the wee hours in my own home? What if I don't have work tomorrow?
I don't give a fuck. Maybe you work nights. Doesn't matter, the pubs still shut regardless of YOUR waking hours.

What if I said I found public swimming facilities a cesspool of bacteria and we apparently don't have the necessary means of properly maintaining them with adequate standards and governmental resources for safety testing and mitigation measures. So we are now shutting them all down. And bicycling has been deemed very dangerous. The health benefits don't outweigh the amount of infrastructure and resource needs, e.g., bike lane construction/maintenance, health services, etc. So, bicycling has been banned. Because that's my decision based upon my health benefits assessment.
Yes, but you are a half wit and I am Thork. I have been ushered to leadership upon a wave of popularity and thrust into the seat of power. People want my guidance. No one has voted for you in my manifesto scenario. You're just an angry neck beard who is looking for things to complain about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 30, 2021, 08:54:02 PM
I know you didn't say that, but where does it stop? I mindlessly binge-watch plenty of shitty US sitcoms on my computer via the internet at 3 AM. Are you going to stop me from doing that?

I'm going to stop streaming services from providing that service. You can do what you like. Maybe you will use a VPN? But my nudging stopped millions of people ... not all people, but millions from staying up all night watching trash TV.

I don't use streaming services to watch shitty US sitcoms. I can find them everywhere on the web, in part and in their entirety, not just on Hulu and Netflix. So you're going to have to shut down my entire interwebs. How do you post here and not know this?

So now you are taking something away from me because you don't like shitty US sitcoms? You disapprove of the content and are saving me from myself. You're worse than any existing mandate and basically acting as thought police.

No, you can watch shitty sitcoms. But not at 3am. This isn't hard. You can't buy a beer at 3am either. The pubs are shut by law. I am only stipulating the hours at which they companies can offer their services. That is very common already. Construction companies are not allowed to operate near built up areas all through the night. Most airports have to stop operating at night. I'm asking streaming companies to do the same.

See above. It's not just streaming services, it's everything. Again, how do you not know this?

And do you have data on the health risks of watching shitty US sitcoms at 3:01 AM?

So now you've defined adult behavior as not watching content in the wee hours in my own home? What if I don't have work tomorrow?
I don't give a fuck. Maybe you work nights. Doesn't matter, the pubs still shut regardless of YOUR waking hours.

What if I said I found public swimming facilities a cesspool of bacteria and we apparently don't have the necessary means of properly maintaining them with adequate standards and governmental resources for safety testing and mitigation measures. So we are now shutting them all down. And bicycling has been deemed very dangerous. The health benefits don't outweigh the amount of infrastructure and resource needs, e.g., bike lane construction/maintenance, health services, etc. So, bicycling has been banned. Because that's my decision based upon my health benefits assessment.

Yes, but you are a half wit and I am Thork. I have been ushered to leadership upon a wave of popularity and thrust into the seat of power. People want my guidance. No one has voted for you in my manifesto scenario. You're just an angry neck beard who is looking for things to complain about.

I'm pretty sure it's a universal truth that it's a blessing that you wield zero political power and have zero guidance sway over any portion of the populace.

And you want to mandate all of this, but have a problem wearing a mask into a shop.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on November 30, 2021, 11:16:01 PM
I don't use streaming services to watch shitty US sitcoms. I can find them everywhere on the web, in part and in their entirety, not just on Hulu and Netflix. So you're going to have to shut down my entire interwebs. How do you post here and not know this?
I don't need to brick up a river to stem its flow. If I cut back the amount of access that is readily available, people will watch less ... partly because they'll have seen all the things they want to watch elsewhere and partly because many can't be bothered to hunt for stuff late when they are tired. I'm not trying to make every citizen go to bed on time every night. I'm nudging the population towards a more sensible lifestyle. some will, some won't, but those who will then save my health service billions.

See above. It's not just streaming services, it's everything. Again, how do you not know this?
Nudging.
https://govinsider.asia/innovation/six-ways-governments-nudging-citizens/

And do you have data on the health risks of watching shitty US sitcoms at 3:01 AM?
Do you think it is good for you to get not very much sleep? I don't need a fucking scientist to tell me things that are common sense.

I'm pretty sure it's a universal truth that it's a blessing that you wield zero political power and have zero guidance sway over any portion of the populace.

And you want to mandate all of this, but have a problem wearing a mask into a shop.  ::)
Again ... I don't intend to force anyone to do anything.

My manifesto changed corporate behaviour to nudge citizens to make better choices.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on November 30, 2021, 11:57:37 PM
I don't use streaming services to watch shitty US sitcoms. I can find them everywhere on the web, in part and in their entirety, not just on Hulu and Netflix. So you're going to have to shut down my entire interwebs. How do you post here and not know this?
I don't need to brick up a river to stem its flow. If I cut back the amount of access that is readily available, people will watch less ... partly because they'll have seen all the things they want to watch elsewhere and partly because many can't be bothered to hunt for stuff late when they are tired. I'm not trying to make every citizen go to bed on time every night. I'm nudging the population towards a more sensible lifestyle. some will, some won't, but those who will then save my health service billions.

See above. It's not just streaming services, it's everything. Again, how do you not know this?
Nudging.
https://govinsider.asia/innovation/six-ways-governments-nudging-citizens/

And do you have data on the health risks of watching shitty US sitcoms at 3:01 AM?
Do you think it is good for you to get not very much sleep? I don't need a fucking scientist to tell me things that are common sense.

"Sensible" as defined by you. Scary.

There's nothing in that article that references sleep deprivation and "nudges" governments.

Do you have any data stating that people are getting less sleep because they are staying up past 3 AM watching shitty US sitcoms?

I'm pretty sure it's a universal truth that it's a blessing that you wield zero political power and have zero guidance sway over any portion of the populace.

And you want to mandate all of this, but have a problem wearing a mask into a shop.  ::)
Again ... I don't intend to force anyone to do anything.

My manifesto changed corporate behaviour to nudge citizens to make better choices.

But you are forcing people. You can't watch TV after 3 AM = You can't go into a shop without a mask. So you're forced to have to find another way to consume media content after 3 AM if you want and you're forced to have to find another way, maybe delivery perhaps, to get from a shop what you want w/o a mask. What's the difference? Both mandates could be for be the betterment of health, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on December 05, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
Our plan is working perfectly.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate

Soon, every American state will vote democratic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on December 06, 2021, 05:08:43 AM
Our plan is working perfectly.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate

Soon, every American state will vote democratic.

Shush Dave! Every liberal knows the plan of course but if the Toms of the world actually take you seriously it may not work!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on December 06, 2021, 12:54:53 PM
Do you have any data stating that people are getting less sleep because they are staying up past 3 AM watching shitty US sitcoms?
Search your feelings. Or search Google.

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50140111
Heavy social media use linked to poor sleep

Quote from: https://www.verlo.com/blog/how-binge-watching-affects-your-sleep/
How Binge Watching Affects Your Sleep

C'mon. You didn't need a source to know that people stay up consuming shitty media instead of sleeping and that it would be bad for them. Even the invention of the lightbulb badly hurt our sleeping patterns. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/book-excerpt-how-the-lightbulb-disrupted-our-sleeping-patterns-and-changed-the-world

On demand access to media is just overkill for many people. A media curfew wouldn't hurt.

But you are forcing people.
No I'm not. Right now the government does not provide teleports. Does that mean that you can describe them as forcing people to use the bus? Is this refusal to provide the teleport service so many people want and need draconian of them? Not providing something at a certain time is not the same as forcing someone to perform a specific action that you mandate them to.

You can't watch TV after 3 AM = You can't go into a shop without a mask.
No. See above.

So you're forced to have to find another way to consume media content after 3 AM
No! You are supposed to go to Th>o<rking bed! 


if you want and you're forced to have to find another way, maybe delivery perhaps, to get from a shop what you want w/o a mask. What's the difference? Both mandates could be for be the betterment of health, right?
Using a shop is a fundamental part of life. Ancient Romans went into shops. You go into a shop to get the things you need ... like food. Forcing me to cover my face in a shop is fascism. Its not a nudge. It is a dehumanising act of subservience that serves ZERO benefit. A bit of cloth on your face does not prevent disease spreading. This is why medical staff use proper masks. Not bits of cloth. Masks are about obedience ... not science.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 06, 2021, 04:39:01 PM
A media curfew wouldn't hurt...Masks are about obedience ... not science.

A media curfew is supported by science? Going to a shop is a fundamental right? Here in the States a lot of shops have this posted:

(https://chefstoys.com/image.php?sku=22229&key=image1)

I guess that's taking a fundamental right away? So the goal is "obedience"? The benefit to mandate makers is....? And a media curfew isn't forced "obedience"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 06, 2021, 05:09:24 PM
A media curfew wouldn't hurt...Masks are about obedience ... not science.

A media curfew is supported by science? Going to a shop is a fundamental right? Here in the States a lot of shops have this posted:

(https://chefstoys.com/image.php?sku=22229&key=image1)

I guess that's taking a fundamental right away? So the goal is "obedience"? The benefit to mandate makers is....? And a media curfew isn't forced "obedience"?
Refuse service to a black man, brown man, or woman. See how legit that sign is then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 06, 2021, 05:52:54 PM
They are a protected class, so it would be a different situation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on December 07, 2021, 01:19:14 PM
Some of these businesses run by Neosociofacist mini tyrants have oppressed our nation for years by demanding that we wear shoes, shirts, pants. Now these bastards are making us wear masks or face the brutality of not being served a vanilla, half-caf, mocha-latte with extra choco sprinkles.

It's the same thing the Nazis did as they swept across Europe.

I'm not going to be subjugated by these monsters!
The pants are coming off!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on December 07, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
Be like the doctor! Take off your pants and jacket 😏
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 09, 2021, 04:09:42 PM
The US Senate votes to overturn the vaccine mandate:
https://youtu.be/yZHo0mHrn6w
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on December 09, 2021, 06:08:15 PM
The US Senate votes to overturn the vaccine mandate:
https://youtu.be/yZHo0mHrn6w
I hope they overturn it.
I hope Biden tells everyone to stop all mandates.
I hope that only 52% of all republicans are vaccinated and 100% of democrats are.

Know why?
Because the people dying are mostly unvaccinated.  Which are mostly republicans.
And since no state is 100% full of republicans, guess what happens to those nice, red states when a few million republicans in them die?

That state goes from red to blue.


So yes, I want all mandates stopped so that no more republicans will take the vaccine.  (because they would have already if they wanted to.)
I want to see all those midwestern states go blue in the next election as they purge their voter rolls of the dead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2021, 06:10:32 PM
The US Senate votes to overturn the vaccine mandate:
https://youtu.be/yZHo0mHrn6w
I hope they overturn it.
I hope Biden tells everyone to stop all mandates.
I hope that only 52% of all republicans are vaccinated and 100% of democrats are.

Know why?
Because the people dying are mostly unvaccinated.  Which are mostly republicans.
And since no state is 100% full of republicans, guess what happens to those nice, red states when a few million republicans in them die?

That state goes from red to blue.


So yes, I want all mandates stopped so that no more republicans will take the vaccine.  (because they would have already if they wanted to.)
I want to see all those midwestern states go blue in the next election as they purge their voter rolls of the dead.

That’s fucked up. Hoping people die so you can win an election is some real ghoul shit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 09, 2021, 06:15:08 PM
I thought this might be pertinent here:

Interesting visual. Based upon CDC data a redditer put together this graph. It shows U.S. COVID-19 Deaths by Vaccine Status (https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/raxc31/oc_us_covid19_deaths_by_vaccine_status/):

(https://i.imgur.com/WB185of.gif)

That June - September Delta spike is especially concerning. Hopefully, we won't get another one like it over the holidays.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
What does "full" refer to?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on December 09, 2021, 06:38:50 PM
The US Senate votes to overturn the vaccine mandate:
https://youtu.be/yZHo0mHrn6w
I hope they overturn it.
I hope Biden tells everyone to stop all mandates.
I hope that only 52% of all republicans are vaccinated and 100% of democrats are.

Know why?
Because the people dying are mostly unvaccinated.  Which are mostly republicans.
And since no state is 100% full of republicans, guess what happens to those nice, red states when a few million republicans in them die?

That state goes from red to blue.


So yes, I want all mandates stopped so that no more republicans will take the vaccine.  (because they would have already if they wanted to.)
I want to see all those midwestern states go blue in the next election as they purge their voter rolls of the dead.

That’s fucked up. Hoping people die so you can win an election is some real ghoul shit.
He doesn't even live in the US. These mandates don't affect him at all. He just wants people who disagree with him to die. You find that a lot with the left. They just aren't very nice people. They like abortions and atheism and destroying the nuclear family. They are just shitty people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2021, 06:56:50 PM
He doesn't even live in the US.

He is American.

Quote
These mandates don't affect him at all.

You neither.  Why do you care that he cares?

Quote
He just wants people who disagree with him to die.

I imagine, he is being hyperbolic, even if the hyperbole is in bad taste.

Quote
You find that a lot with the left.

No you don't.

Quote
They just aren't very nice people.

But you aren't a leftist.  This doesn't track.

Quote
They like abortions and atheism and destroying the nuclear family.

lol nice bait.

Quote
They are just shitty people.

What is it like to be this bigoted?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on December 09, 2021, 07:09:39 PM
The US Senate votes to overturn the vaccine mandate:
https://youtu.be/yZHo0mHrn6w
I hope they overturn it.
I hope Biden tells everyone to stop all mandates.
I hope that only 52% of all republicans are vaccinated and 100% of democrats are.

Know why?
Because the people dying are mostly unvaccinated.  Which are mostly republicans.
And since no state is 100% full of republicans, guess what happens to those nice, red states when a few million republicans in them die?

That state goes from red to blue.


So yes, I want all mandates stopped so that no more republicans will take the vaccine.  (because they would have already if they wanted to.)
I want to see all those midwestern states go blue in the next election as they purge their voter rolls of the dead.

That’s fucked up. Hoping people die so you can win an election is some real ghoul shit.

It is.
Its absolutely fucked up. 
It makes me horrible. 
And maybe.  Just maybe... The Republicans will try and stop it.  But probably not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on December 09, 2021, 07:28:58 PM
The house will most likely not pass this.  At least not by any veto proof majority.  It's just interesting that two Democrats defected in the senate.

I don't like seeing people die even if they're on a different political party.  I have a lot of family members and coworkers who are republican. 

Then again Darwin is a son of a bitch sometimes and there's only so much we can do to keep these people from earning their Herman Cain Award.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 09, 2021, 08:18:42 PM
What does "full" refer to?

Great question. And it seems to be the number 1 question about the graph. Best I can discern from all of the comments is that “Full” is the aggregate for fully vaccinated people, (2 does Moderna & Pfizer, 1 dose J&J), regardless of brand.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Kangaroony on December 10, 2021, 04:57:59 PM
Honestly, with the new Omnicron variant, we probably will.
Because of people like Tom, this won't go away.  Ever.  So we'll need to keep getting booster shots for the newest strain.

Current clinical research seems to indicate that people who've had their first two vaccinations,
and who've also had their booster will have the same Omicron resistance as they do for Delta.

I only wish we plebs could get accurate information from the medical powers that be.  At the
moment, confusion reigns supreme.     >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 17, 2021, 02:30:52 AM
https://theohiostar.com/2021/12/15/exclusive-ohios-largest-hospital-system-still-distributing-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-not-fully-approved-by-fda/

Wow, four months later and the FDA approved vaccine is still not available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 17, 2021, 03:42:04 AM
https://theohiostar.com/2021/12/15/exclusive-ohios-largest-hospital-system-still-distributing-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-not-fully-approved-by-fda/

Wow, four months later and the FDA approved vaccine is still not available.

Jesus Christ. Please refer back to previous discussions on why this is nonsense and see if you can add something else.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 17, 2021, 03:49:58 AM
The last time we had this conversation it was conceded that it was not available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 17, 2021, 04:15:51 AM
The last time we had this conversation it was conceded that it was not available.

And? Why wasn’t it available?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 17, 2021, 04:35:42 AM
The last time we had this conversation it was conceded that it was not available.

What’s the issue here? The brand name, ‘Comirnaty’, appearing on a label?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 17, 2021, 08:44:12 AM
The issue is that the two products are "legally distinct", as indicated in the article.

EUA drugs and vaccines are given a special status that prevents lawsuits. You can't sue if an EUA drug or vaccine injures or harms you, but you have more legal standing to sue if an approved drug or vaccine injures or harms you. This is why they are playing games and not releasing the FDA approved version.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on December 17, 2021, 09:56:51 AM
The issue is that the two products are "legally distinct", as indicated in the article.

EUA drugs and vaccines are given a special status that prevents lawsuits. You can't sue if an EUA drug or vaccine injures or harms you, but you have more legal standing to sue if an approved drug or vaccine injures or harms you. This is why they are playing games and not releasing the FDA approved version.

No one cares that you don't want the vaccine. In fact, we are all hoping that you continue to be an anti vaxxer and when covid finds you, it won't be kind. But hey, you'll get your 'natural immunity'..... If you survive. If your avatar is accurate it'll be a roll of the dice odds. Good luck ::)

Ivermectin won't save you either. Please continue to think Ivermectin is the cure.

Dont take the ones for humans either. Dose is too low for covid busting purpose. Get the paste for farm animals and use it like it's mustard

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 17, 2021, 05:10:38 PM
The issue is that the two products are "legally distinct", as indicated in the article.

EUA drugs and vaccines are given a special status that prevents lawsuits. You can't sue if an EUA drug or vaccine injures or harms you, but you have more legal standing to sue if an approved drug or vaccine injures or harms you. This is why they are playing games and not releasing the FDA approved version.

Apparently you are incorrect:

The false claim that the fully-approved Pfizer vaccine lacks liability protection
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-claim-that-fully-approved-pfizer-vaccine-lacks-liability-protection/)
“The statement that the products are ‘legally distinct with certain differences’ refers to the differences in manufacturing information included in the respective regulatory submissions,” said Pfizer spokesperson Sharon J. Castillo in an email. “Specifically, while the products are manufactured using the same processes, they may have been manufactured at different sites or using raw materials from different approved suppliers. FDA closely reviews all manufacturing steps, and has found explicitly that the EUA and BLA [biologics license application] products are equivalent.”

“The liability protections afforded under the PREP Act are tied to the declared public health emergency and not whether the vaccine is sold under an EUA,” Castillo said. “Therefore, both Comirnaty and the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine receive the same liability protections as medical countermeasures against covid-19.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on December 17, 2021, 06:38:32 PM
For me this isn't about government mandates. This is a private sector thing.
In my factory, I'm paying for health insurance. I'm responsible for the safety of the people here. I have to breathe in your pathogens.
If you want to work here, you get vaccinated.

I don't give a crap what the government or the Book of Revelations or Vladimir Putin says.

If you have some problem with getting vaccinated, this isn't the job for you. Just like a vegetarian Hindu is not going to work in a slaughterhouse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: scomato on December 17, 2021, 09:56:39 PM
For me this isn't about government mandates. This is a private sector thing.
In my factory, I'm paying for health insurance. I'm responsible for the safety of the people here. I have to breathe in your pathogens.
If you want to work here, you get vaccinated.

I don't give a crap what the government or the Book of Revelations or Vladimir Putin says.

If you have some problem with getting vaccinated, this isn't the job for you. Just like a vegetarian Hindu is not going to work in a slaughterhouse.

It's ironic how many people are anti-vaxx but also hoo-rah pro-Armed Forces despite the fact that being anti-vaxx will earn you a dishonorable discharge now.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/12/17/1065286802/u-s-military-moves-to-discharge-service-members-who-refuse-to-get-vaccinated
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on December 18, 2021, 03:09:14 AM
For me this isn't about government mandates. This is a private sector thing.
In my factory, I'm paying for health insurance. I'm responsible for the safety of the people here. I have to breathe in your pathogens.
If you want to work here, you get vaccinated.

I don't give a crap what the government or the Book of Revelations or Vladimir Putin says.

If you have some problem with getting vaccinated, this isn't the job for you. Just like a vegetarian Hindu is not going to work in a slaughterhouse.

It's ironic how many people are anti-vaxx but also hoo-rah pro-Armed Forces despite the fact that being anti-vaxx will earn you a dishonorable discharge now.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/12/17/1065286802/u-s-military-moves-to-discharge-service-members-who-refuse-to-get-vaccinated

Not even just a simple let go but a DISHONOURABLE discharge. Nice. Good.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 18, 2021, 04:33:19 PM
For me this isn't about government mandates. This is a private sector thing.
In my factory, I'm paying for health insurance. I'm responsible for the safety of the people here. I have to breathe in your pathogens.
If you want to work here, you get vaccinated.

I don't give a crap what the government or the Book of Revelations or Vladimir Putin says.

If you have some problem with getting vaccinated, this isn't the job for you. Just like a vegetarian Hindu is not going to work in a slaughterhouse.
Just keep wearing your highly effective mask and you won't be breathing in any pathogens.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on December 19, 2021, 05:16:45 AM
For me this isn't about government mandates. This is a private sector thing.
In my factory, I'm paying for health insurance. I'm responsible for the safety of the people here. I have to breathe in your pathogens.
If you want to work here, you get vaccinated.

I don't give a crap what the government or the Book of Revelations or Vladimir Putin says.

If you have some problem with getting vaccinated, this isn't the job for you. Just like a vegetarian Hindu is not going to work in a slaughterhouse.
Just keep wearing your highly effective mask and you won't be breathing in any pathogens.

Nobody has said masks prevent infections. It has always been said it would slow the spread of infections

Everyone who participates in society is going to catch the corone. The idea behind masks was that not everyone is infected at the same time overwhelming healthcare services. Vaccines vastly reduce the chance you'll need hospital care

It's risk reduction.

Not surprising that concept is beyond the grasp of a repugnican voter though
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 19, 2021, 07:17:02 AM
What does "full" refer to?

Great question. And it seems to be the number 1 question about the graph. Best I can discern from all of the comments is that “Full” is the aggregate for fully vaccinated people, (2 does Moderna & Pfizer, 1 dose J&J), regardless of brand.
Whatever you might think "fully vaccinated," fucking means, you can fucking rest assured it will mean something fucking different tomorrow.

Your chart therefore is absolutely fucking useless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 19, 2021, 07:21:35 AM
For me this isn't about government mandates. This is a private sector thing.
In my factory, I'm paying for health insurance. I'm responsible for the safety of the people here. I have to breathe in your pathogens.
If you want to work here, you get vaccinated.

I don't give a crap what the government or the Book of Revelations or Vladimir Putin says.

If you have some problem with getting vaccinated, this isn't the job for you. Just like a vegetarian Hindu is not going to work in a slaughterhouse.

It's ironic how many people are anti-vaxx but also hoo-rah pro-Armed Forces despite the fact that being anti-vaxx will earn you a dishonorable discharge now.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/12/17/1065286802/u-s-military-moves-to-discharge-service-members-who-refuse-to-get-vaccinated

Not even just a simple let go but a DISHONOURABLE discharge. Nice. Good.
I am sure you need more people labeled as DISHONORABLE to keep you company,  but the word appears nowhere in the article
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 22, 2021, 05:51:50 PM
The FDA Approved vaccine is still not available: https://tennesseestar.com/2021/12/18/kentucky-congressman-massie-comirnaty-not-available-in-united-states/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 22, 2021, 05:52:47 PM
The FDA Approved vaccine is still not available: https://tennesseestar.com/2021/12/18/kentucky-congressman-massie-comirnaty-not-available-in-united-states/

So get another vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 22, 2021, 06:05:30 PM
The FDA Approved vaccine is still not available: https://tennesseestar.com/2021/12/18/kentucky-congressman-massie-comirnaty-not-available-in-united-states/

So get another vaccine.

The problem is that there is no approved vaccine available, yet the vaccine is being mandated. The EUA vaccine cannot be mandated.

This article written by a law firm indicates that employers are prohibited from mandating the Emergency Use Authorized vaccines:

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/

Quote
EUAs are clear: Getting these vaccines is voluntary

The same section (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/21/360bbb-3) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act that authorizes the FDA to grant emergency use authorization also requires the secretary of Health and Human Services to “ensure that individuals to whom the product is administered are informed … of the option to accept or refuse administration of the product.”

Likewise, the FDA’s guidance (https://www.fda.gov/media/97321/download) on emergency use authorization of medical products requires the FDA to “ensure that recipients are informed to the extent practicable given the applicable circumstances … That they have the option to accept or refuse the EUA product …”

In the same vein, when Dr. Amanda Cohn, the executive secretary of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, was asked if Covid-19 vaccination can be required, she responded (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/min-archive/min-2020-08-508.pdf) that under an EUA, “vaccines are not allowed to be mandatory. So, early in this vaccination phase, individuals will have to be consented and they won’t be able to be mandatory.” Cohn later affirmed that this prohibition on requiring the vaccines applies to organizations, including hospitals. (https://www.fda.gov/media/143982/download)

The EUAs for both the Pfizer/BioNTech (https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download) and Moderna (https://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download) vaccines require facts sheets to be given to vaccination providers and recipients. These fact sheets make clear that getting the vaccine is optional. For example, the one for recipients states that, “It is your choice to receive or not receive the Covid-19 Vaccine,” and if “you decide to not receive it, it will not change your standard of medical care.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 22, 2021, 06:07:38 PM
The FDA Approved vaccine is still not available: https://tennesseestar.com/2021/12/18/kentucky-congressman-massie-comirnaty-not-available-in-united-states/

So get another vaccine.

The problem is that there is no approved vaccine is available, yet the vaccine is being mandated. The EUA vaccine cannot be forced on people:

According to this article written by a law firm employers are prohibited from mandating the Emergency Use Authorized vaccines:

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/

Quote
EUAs are clear: Getting these vaccines is voluntary

The same section (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/21/360bbb-3) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act that authorizes the FDA to grant emergency use authorization also requires the secretary of Health and Human Services to “ensure that individuals to whom the product is administered are informed … of the option to accept or refuse administration of the product.”

Likewise, the FDA’s guidance (https://www.fda.gov/media/97321/download) on emergency use authorization of medical products requires the FDA to “ensure that recipients are informed to the extent practicable given the applicable circumstances … That they have the option to accept or refuse the EUA product …”

In the same vein, when Dr. Amanda Cohn, the executive secretary of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, was asked if Covid-19 vaccination can be required, she responded (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/min-archive/min-2020-08-508.pdf) that under an EUA, “vaccines are not allowed to be mandatory. So, early in this vaccination phase, individuals will have to be consented and they won’t be able to be mandatory.” Cohn later affirmed that this prohibition on requiring the vaccines applies to organizations, including hospitals. (https://www.fda.gov/media/143982/download)

The EUAs for both the Pfizer/BioNTech (https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download) and Moderna (https://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download) vaccines require facts sheets to be given to vaccination providers and recipients. These fact sheets make clear that getting the vaccine is optional. For example, the one for recipients states that, “It is your choice to receive or not receive the Covid-19 Vaccine,” and if “you decide to not receive it, it will not change your standard of medical care.”

“But the Pfizer vaccine is the same!” He wrote knowing exactly how Tom would respond.

Why are you lying about a desire to get a vaccine in the first place?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 22, 2021, 06:15:45 PM
Actually the FDA indicates that the two Pfizer products are "legally distinct":
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-covid-19-vaccine-mrna

Quote
Comirnaty has the same formulation as the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness.

Furthermore, the argument that they have the same composition is also incorrect. FDA indicates that the BNT162b2 EUA Pfizer vaccine has a different composition than the Comirnaty vaccine -

https://web.archive.org/web/20210913042547/https://www.fda.gov/media/151733/download
see page 14: 4. NonclinicalPharmacology/Toxicology

Quote
COMIRNATY and BNT162b2 (V8) have identical amino acid sequences of the encoded antigens but COMIRNATY includes the presence of optimized codons to improve antigen expression.

FDA indicates on its definition page that "same formulation" does not mean same composition:
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=314.3

Quote
Sec. 314.3 Definitions.

Same drug product formulation is the formulation of the drug product submitted for approval and any formulations that have minor differences in composition or method of manufacture from the formulation submitted for approval, but are similar enough to be relevant to the Agency's determination of bioequivalence.

Bioequivalence is also defined on that page:

Quote
Bioequivalence is the absence of a significant difference in the rate and extent to which the active ingredient or active moiety in pharmaceutical equivalents or pharmaceutical alternatives becomes available at the site of drug action when administered at the same molar dose under similar conditions in an appropriately designed study. Where there is an intentional difference in rate (e.g., in certain extended-release dosage forms), certain pharmaceutical equivalents or alternatives may be considered bioequivalent if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action.

The definition includes extended-release dosages and alternatives. The terminology appears to be fairly loose. Same formulation means that it may have a different composition and delivery mechanism but it's bioequivalent if the right active ingredient goes to the right places. According to the above definition it could be a completely different alternative drug and still be a 'same formulation'.

However, the main concern is that the two vaccines are "legally distinct" which indicates that they are legally separate products.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 22, 2021, 06:21:11 PM
Actually the FDA indicates that the two Pfizer products are "legally distinct":
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-covid-19-vaccine-mrna

Quote
Comirnaty has the same formulation as the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness.

Furthermore, the argument that the same composition is also incorrect. FDA indicates that the BNT162b2 EUA Pfizer vaccine has a different composition than the Comirnaty vaccine -

https://web.archive.org/web/20210913042547/https://www.fda.gov/media/151733/download
see page 14: 4. NonclinicalPharmacology/Toxicology

Quote
COMIRNATY and BNT162b2 (V8) have identical amino acid sequences of the encoded antigens but COMIRNATY includes the presence of optimized codons to improve antigen expression.

FDA indicates on its definition page that "same formulation" does not mean same composition:
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=314.3

Quote
Sec. 314.3 Definitions.

Same drug product formulation is the formulation of the drug product submitted for approval and any formulations that have minor differences in composition or method of manufacture from the formulation submitted for approval, but are similar enough to be relevant to the Agency's determination of bioequivalence.

Bioequivalence is also defined on that page:

Quote
Bioequivalence is the absence of a significant difference in the rate and extent to which the active ingredient or active moiety in pharmaceutical equivalents or pharmaceutical alternatives becomes available at the site of drug action when administered at the same molar dose under similar conditions in an appropriately designed study. Where there is an intentional difference in rate (e.g., in certain extended-release dosage forms), certain pharmaceutical equivalents or alternatives may be considered bioequivalent if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action.

The definition includes extended-release dosages and alternatives. The terminology appears to be fairly loose. Same formulation means that it may have a different composition and delivery mechanism but it's bioequivalent if the right active ingredient goes to the right places. According to the above definition it could be a completely different alternative drug and still be a 'same formulation'.

However, the main concern is that the two vaccines are "legally distinct" which indicates that they are legally separate products.


“But the Pfizer vaccine is the same!” He wrote knowing exactly how Tom would respond.

Why are you lying about a desire to get a vaccine in the first place?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 22, 2021, 06:42:09 PM
The FDA Approved vaccine is still not available: https://tennesseestar.com/2021/12/18/kentucky-congressman-massie-comirnaty-not-available-in-united-states/

So get another vaccine.

The problem is that there is no approved vaccine available, yet the vaccine is being mandated. The EUA vaccine cannot be mandated:

Your article is from Feb 2021. The issue has been litigated since then and appeals are probably still out there.

Can Employers Mandate a Vaccine Authorized for Emergency Use? (https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/employment-law/pages/employer-mandate-covid-vaccine-eua.aspx)

Some employees have filed lawsuits arguing that employers can't mandate a vaccine that is approved only for emergency use. A federal court in Texas, however, dismissed this argument in a recent case against Houston Methodist, which required its 26,000 employees to get vaccinated or be fired...

Notably, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) issued an opinion on July 6 addressing vaccination mandates and the EUA status of the currently approved vaccines.

"As access to the COVID-19 vaccines has become widespread, numerous educational institutions, employers, and other entities across the United States have announced that they will require individuals to be vaccinated against COVID-19 as a condition of employment, enrollment, participation, or some other benefit, service, relationship or access," the DOJ said.

The department concluded that the federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act doesn't prohibit public or private entities from mandating vaccines that are authorized under emergency use.


Whether Section 564 of the Food, Drug, and CosmeticAct Prohibits Entities from Requiring the Use of aVaccine Subject to an Emergency Use Authorization (https://www.justice.gov/olc/file/1415446/download)

In light of these developments, you have asked whether the “option to accept or refuse” condition in section 564 prohibits entities from imposing such vaccination requirements while the only available vaccines for COVID-19 remain subject to EUAs. We conclude, consistent with FDA’s interpretation, that it does not. This language in section 564 specifies only that certain information be provided to potential vaccine recipients and does not prohibit entities from imposing vaccination requirements. 3
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 22, 2021, 06:46:53 PM
Actually it has been litigated further than that DOJ July 6 opinion (made by someone who was not a judge). Last month a federal judge rejected those claims that the vaccine is legally interchangeable with the EUA vaccine:

https://creativedestructionmedia.com/news/2021/12/01/breaking-federal-judge-rejects-dod-claim-that-pfizer-eua-and-comirnaty-vaccines-are-interchangeable/

Quote
BREAKING: Federal Judge Rejects DOD Claim That Pfizer EUA And Comirnaty Vaccines Are ‘Interchangeable’

A federal district court judge has rejected a claim by the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine being administered under Emergency Use Authorization is interchangeable with Pfizer’s Comirnaty vaccine, which in August was fully licensed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

In an order issued Nov. 12 in Doe et al. v. Austin, U.S. Federal District Judge Allen Winsor of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida denied a preliminary injunction requested by 16 service members against the U.S. Military’s COVID vaccine mandate. A hearing is scheduled for Sept. 14, 2022.

However, the judge’s acknowledgment that “the DOD cannot mandate vaccines that only have an EUA” is significant for two reasons…
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 22, 2021, 07:40:44 PM
That’s absolutely not what that judge said in the motion for injunctive relief. In fact the judge acknowledges the argument that the EUA and FDA vaccines are chemically identical.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 22, 2021, 08:00:00 PM
However, the judge’s acknowledgment that “the DOD cannot mandate vaccines that only have an EUA” is significant for two reasons…

Woah, I just read the Justice's order in the case. It's way, way more complicated than just the “the DOD cannot mandate vaccines that only have an EUA” highlight. In short, given all the back and forth between what approved facilities create the EUA version versus the approved version and the labels on each and which labeled vials the servicemembers must receive as part of the mandate, the injunction was denied:

Because the plaintiffs have not shown they are (or will be) required to receive an EUA-labeled, non-BLA compliant vaccine (The Biologics License Application (BLA) is a request for permission to introduce, or deliver for introduction, a biologic product into interstate commerce), the plaintiffs have not shown a likelihood of success.

It's a lot about "labeling" and "interchangeably". The Justice goes on:

What the plaintiffs overlook is that the FDA used the word “interchangeably”  in a practical sense, not a legal one. The EUA letter explains that the EUA drug and  Comirnaty “can be used interchangeably without presenting any safety or  effectiveness concerns,” but clarifies that they are “legally distinct.” ECF No. 1-6 at  3 n.8. That is most plausibly interpreted as a factual, medical claim rather than a regulatory claim.13
The best evidence of this is that, as noted above, the FDA was not considering whether to grant full approval to the EUA product on the basis that it was “interchangeable” with Comirnaty in the statutory sense. Rather, the FDA was extending an EUA authorization, a completely different regulatory classification,  that expressly requires Pfizer to indicate that EUA vaccines “ha[ve] not been  approved or licensed by the FDA.” ECF No. 1-6 at 13.


In short, the injunction was denied.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 22, 2021, 08:58:48 PM
The injunction was asking for and alleging some specific things that the judge did not agree with. However, the judge agreed that EUA vaccines cannot be mandated:

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/judge-allen-winsor-pfizer-eua-comirnaty-vaccines-interchangeable/

Quote
All of these issues came to the fore in Judge Winsor’s Nov. 12 decision.

As recognized by the judge, “under the EUA statute, recipients of EUA drugs must be ‘informed … of the option to accept or refuse administration of the product.”

The judge further noted that with regard to the administration of an EUA product to members of the armed forces, such a right of refusal may be waived only by the president.

As noted, “[t]he DOD acknowledges that the president has not executed a [waiver], so as things now stand, the DOD cannot mandate vaccines that only have an EUA.”

Judge Winsor also pointed out that “DOD’s guidance documents explicitly say only FDA-licensed COVID-19 vaccines are mandated.”

While this would be applicable to the Comirnaty vaccine, the judge noted “the plaintiffs have shown that the DOD is requiring injections from vials not labeled ‘Comirnaty.’ Indeed, defense counsel could not even say whether vaccines labeled ‘Comirnaty’ exist at all.”

The judge also noted that the DOD “later clarified that it was mandating vaccines from EUA-labeled vials,” adding that “in the DOD’s view, this is fine because the contents of EUA-labeled vials are chemically identical to the contents of vials labeled ‘Comirnaty’ (if there are any such vials).”

The judge found this argument “unconvincing,” stating that “FDA licensure does not retroactively apply to vials shipped before BLA approval.”

He further noted that EUA provisions suggest “drugs mandated for military personnel be actually BLA-approved, not merely chemically similar to a BLA-approved drug,” not just in terms of labeling, but also in terms of being produced at BLA-compliant facilities.

As the judge stated, “there is no indication that all EUA-labeled vials are from BLA-approved facilities,” adding that “the DOD cannot rely on the FDA to find that the two drugs are legally identical.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 22, 2021, 09:03:54 PM
The injunction was asking for specific things that the judge did not agree with. However, the judge agreed that EUA vaccines cannot be mandated:

The injunction was asking that the vaccine not be mandated. Curiously, the judge denied the injunction.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 22, 2021, 09:04:55 PM
In other covid news:

A new congressional report shows how Donald Trump sabotaged the country’s early response to COVID (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/12/the-sad-new-details-of-how-trump-sabotaged-the-countrys-response-to-covid.html?utm_source=digg)

But there’s another crucial difference between the two administrations, and it’s outlined in a new report from the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis. Trump’s administration, unlike Biden’s, deliberately sabotaged the nation’s response to the pandemic.

First: On Feb. 25, 2020, Nancy Messonnier, the CDC official in charge of respiratory diseases, warned Americans that a pandemic was coming and that they should prepare for school and workplace closures. Trump responded by threatening to fire her.
...in April 2020, the White House rejected the agency’s request to hold a briefing to present the scientific case for wearing masks. Instead, Trump delivered his own COVID briefing, at which he said of masks: “You don’t have to do it. I’m choosing not to do it.”

Second, the White House altered CDC guidance to religious congregations, deleting recommendations to wear masks and take other precautions.

Third, the administration tried to limit COVID testing in order to hide the extent of the pandemic and keep businesses open.

Fourth, from September 2020 to January 2021, the White House ignored urgent entreaties from its COVID task force coordinator, Dr. Deborah Birx.


Fifth: Trump’s political appointees tried to pressure the Food and Drug Administration to authorize hydroxychloroquine and other ineffective therapies.

Finally: But the subcommittee report links to emails, transcripts, and other documents that show how the president’s anti-mask, anti-testing rhetoric was translated into policy and magnified the death toll.
 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Kangaroony on December 24, 2021, 11:18:48 AM
Nobody has said masks prevent infections. It has always been said it would slow the spread of infections

Everyone who participates in society is going to catch the corona. The idea behind masks was that not everyone is infected at the same time overwhelming healthcare services. Vaccines vastly reduce the chance you'll need hospital care

It's risk reduction.
I agree with yous assertion that mask wearing slows the spread of the Coronavirus, and decreases
the risk of catching it, but to say that "everyone" is going to catch it is not correct.  In an Australian
population of 20,400,000 aged 15+ years, there have been 265,000 confirmed cases to date, which
is only 1.3% of the population.

Quote from: Shifter
Not surprising that concept is beyond the grasp of a republican voter though
"The empirical results of [the] paper provide strong evidence that, after controlling for a variety of other
factors, the practice of mask wearing is significantly less in counties where then-candidate Donald Trump
received strong support in the 2016 presidential election. This result is consistent with the theory that
Trump supporters are looking to the president for guidance on the importance of wearing a mask to battle
COVID-19 and the message they are getting is that masks are not important. This message may prove to
be very costly in terms of economic losses, illnesses, and deaths."

Politicizing the Mask: Political, Economic and Demographic Factors Affecting Mask Wearing Behavior in the USA, Leo H. Kahane, 5 January 2021.



It's been blatantly obvious for nearly two years that Trump and his supporters have undoubtedly increased
both the spread and the incidence, and the US death rate because of their combined inaction and beliefs in
absurd conspiracy theories.  In a just world, Trump would now be fronting the World Court on charges of
crimes against humanity relating to the unnecessary deaths of an estimated 100,000-plus people, due to
his blatant lies about potential cures, his total scientific ignorance, his delays in introducing border closures
and social isolation, his rejection of senior epidemiologists' advice, and his arrogant, dim-witted attitude in
general.  A truly woeful example of a human being, and an embarrassing disgrace for the American people
to bear, even into the near future.     At least we won't be seeing him ever again after 2024.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on December 24, 2021, 11:44:10 AM
Nobody has said masks prevent infections. It has always been said it would slow the spread of infections

Everyone who participates in society is going to catch the corona. The idea behind masks was that not everyone is infected at the same time overwhelming healthcare services. Vaccines vastly reduce the chance you'll need hospital care

It's risk reduction.
I agree with yous assertion that mask wearing slows the spread of the Coronavirus, and decreases
the risk of catching it, but to say that "everyone" is going to catch it is not correct.  In an Australian
population of 20,400,000 aged 15+ years, there have been 265,000 confirmed cases to date, which
is only 1.3% of the population.

Not all are active participants. Canberra is 99% vaxxed and not very 'big' by city standards and despite my best mitigating efforts and going out sparsely I have been very close to being in contact with it on numerous occasions. Imagine how many would be infected with no vaccine or mitigating efforts to control the spread.... I'll be thankful if I can escape the Christmas gatherings unscathed.

If you go out to work, have kids in school, do shopping, see friends or any other leisure activities, it really is only a matter of time. Hopefully for the unvaxxed sakes, the variant floating around is mild by the time that happens. Countries are going to go back to mostly pre covid life eventually. As sure as shit we get the common cold, we are going to get some form of this SARS menace

I prefer to be vaccinated when that happens. And it's going to happen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 02:07:46 PM
In other covid news:

A new congressional report shows how Donald Trump sabotaged the country’s early response to COVID (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/12/the-sad-new-details-of-how-trump-sabotaged-the-countrys-response-to-covid.html?utm_source=digg)

But there’s another crucial difference between the two administrations, and it’s outlined in a new report from the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis. Trump’s administration, unlike Biden’s, deliberately sabotaged the nation’s response to the pandemic.

First: On Feb. 25, 2020, Nancy Messonnier, the CDC official in charge of respiratory diseases, warned Americans that a pandemic was coming and that they should prepare for school and workplace closures. Trump responded by threatening to fire her.
...in April 2020, the White House rejected the agency’s request to hold a briefing to present the scientific case for wearing masks. Instead, Trump delivered his own COVID briefing, at which he said of masks: “You don’t have to do it. I’m choosing not to do it.”

Second, the White House altered CDC guidance to religious congregations, deleting recommendations to wear masks and take other precautions.

Third, the administration tried to limit COVID testing in order to hide the extent of the pandemic and keep businesses open.

Fourth, from September 2020 to January 2021, the White House ignored urgent entreaties from its COVID task force coordinator, Dr. Deborah Birx.


Fifth: Trump’s political appointees tried to pressure the Food and Drug Administration to authorize hydroxychloroquine and other ineffective therapies.

Finally: But the subcommittee report links to emails, transcripts, and other documents that show how the president’s anti-mask, anti-testing rhetoric was translated into policy and magnified the death toll.
Fauci must have been the point man on the idea of rejecting the mask mandates, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 02:11:10 PM
Nobody has said masks prevent infections. It has always been said it would slow the spread of infections

Everyone who participates in society is going to catch the corona. The idea behind masks was that not everyone is infected at the same time overwhelming healthcare services. Vaccines vastly reduce the chance you'll need hospital care

It's risk reduction.
I agree with yous assertion that mask wearing slows the spread of the Coronavirus, and decreases
the risk of catching it, but to say that "everyone" is going to catch it is not correct.  In an Australian
population of 20,400,000 aged 15+ years, there have been 265,000 confirmed cases to date, which
is only 1.3% of the population.

Quote from: Shifter
Not surprising that concept is beyond the grasp of a republican voter though
"The empirical results of [the] paper provide strong evidence that, after controlling for a variety of other
factors, the practice of mask wearing is significantly less in counties where then-candidate Donald Trump
received strong support in the 2016 presidential election. This result is consistent with the theory that
Trump supporters are looking to the president for guidance on the importance of wearing a mask to battle
COVID-19 and the message they are getting is that masks are not important. This message may prove to
be very costly in terms of economic losses, illnesses, and deaths."

Politicizing the Mask: Political, Economic and Demographic Factors Affecting Mask Wearing Behavior in the USA, Leo H. Kahane, 5 January 2021.



It's been blatantly obvious for nearly two years that Trump and his supporters have undoubtedly increased
both the spread and the incidence, and the US death rate because of their combined inaction and beliefs in
absurd conspiracy theories.  In a just world, Trump would now be fronting the World Court on charges of
crimes against humanity relating to the unnecessary deaths of an estimated 100,000-plus people, due to
his blatant lies about potential cures, his total scientific ignorance, his delays in introducing border closures
and social isolation, his rejection of senior epidemiologists' advice, and his arrogant, dim-witted attitude in
general.  A truly woeful example of a human being, and an embarrassing disgrace for the American people
to bear, even into the near future.     At least we won't be seeing him ever again after 2024.
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 24, 2021, 03:29:14 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Your half-assed explanation doesn't support why there would be a sudden and sharp spike in deaths that happens to coincide with COVID case spikes.  You can't hand wave this away with logically consistent arguements that have no evidence to back them up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 24, 2021, 04:44:12 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Boomers don't have a monopoly on excess mortality rates in 2020-2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/pS124o2.png)

You need to account for this in regard to other generations besides boomers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 04:59:23 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Boomers don't have a monopoly on excess mortality rates in 2020-2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/pS124o2.png)

You need to account for this in regard to other generations besides boomers.
Stupid lockdowns, resulting in higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, and other things detrimental to the well being of humans.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 24, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Boomers don't have a monopoly on excess mortality rates in 2020-2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/pS124o2.png)

You need to account for this in regard to other generations besides boomers.
Stupid lockdowns, resulting in higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, and other things detrimental to the well being of humans.

Evidence?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 24, 2021, 05:02:36 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Boomers don't have a monopoly on excess mortality rates in 2020-2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/pS124o2.png)

You need to account for this in regard to other generations besides boomers.
Stupid lockdowns, resulting in higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, and other things detrimental to the well being of humans.

You keep throwing shit at the wall hoping it sticks. You will eventually need to assert more than your opinion that this is indeed what has occurred. Until then, we will just keep pointing out how you don’t have any and smile at your Ad Hoc reasoning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 05:03:53 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Your half-assed explanation doesn't support why there would be a sudden and sharp spike in deaths that happens to coincide with COVID case spikes.  You can't hand wave this away with logically consistent arguements that have no evidence to back them up.
Your incredulity is not my problem.

You deny the sky is blue.

Facts are facts whether you like it or not.

More people born between 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Severe restrictions on the freedom of people to freely move and freely associate with others = increased rates of death across all generations of humanity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 24, 2021, 05:09:36 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Your half-assed explanation doesn't support why there would be a sudden and sharp spike in deaths that happens to coincide with COVID case spikes.  You can't hand wave this away with logically consistent arguements that have no evidence to back them up.
Your incredulity is not my problem.

You deny the sky is blue.

Facts are facts whether you like it or not.

More people born between 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

:)

Quote
Severe restrictions on the freedom of people to freely move and freely associate with others = increased rates of death across all generations of humanity.

No I won’t take your word for it. You need to do better.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Boomers don't have a monopoly on excess mortality rates in 2020-2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/pS124o2.png)

You need to account for this in regard to other generations besides boomers.
Stupid lockdowns, resulting in higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, and other things detrimental to the well being of humans.

Evidence?
What, you need evidence that restrictions on freedom of movement and free association with other humans is detrimental to the health and well-being of humans?

You still have your incredulity intact.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 05:13:33 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Your half-assed explanation doesn't support why there would be a sudden and sharp spike in deaths that happens to coincide with COVID case spikes.  You can't hand wave this away with logically consistent arguements that have no evidence to back them up.
Your incredulity is not my problem.

You deny the sky is blue.

Facts are facts whether you like it or not.

More people born between 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

:)

Quote
Severe restrictions on the freedom of people to freely move and freely associate with others = increased rates of death across all generations of humanity.

No I won’t take your word for it. You need to do better.
I don't GAS whether you take my for it or not.

I am absolutely correct as far as my analysis of this entire issue is concerned.

What I have written here is as true as me writing  "the sky is blue."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 24, 2021, 05:24:13 PM
Stupid lockdowns, resulting in higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, and other things detrimental to the well being of humans.

Here's some stuff referred to as "evidence". Something you have a distinct aversion to.

Drug abuse:

2019 US Drug Overdose deaths stood at around 72k
2020 US Drug Overdose deaths stood at around 93k

So there's your 21k excess deaths.

(https://i.imgur.com/dCNOWiq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/U31Niqh.png)

Suicide - Overall, down in 2020, but up in some demographics:

While nearly 350,000 Americans died from Covid-19, the number of suicides dropped by 5 percent, to 44,834 deaths in 2020 from 47,511 in 2019. It is the second year in a row that the number has fallen, after cresting in 2018.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-suicide-cdc.html

0 Excess deaths

2020 All Cause Excess Dearths:

During January 26, 2020–February 27, 2021, an estimated 545,600–660,200 more persons than expected died in the United States from all causes
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7015a4.htm

You need to explain the 500-600k excess deaths not attributed to what you listed. Have at it, and attempt to provide evidence rather than opinion and assertion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 24, 2021, 05:30:26 PM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

Your half-assed explanation doesn't support why there would be a sudden and sharp spike in deaths that happens to coincide with COVID case spikes.  You can't hand wave this away with logically consistent arguements that have no evidence to back them up.
Your incredulity is not my problem.

You deny the sky is blue.

Facts are facts whether you like it or not.

More people born between 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

:)

Quote
Severe restrictions on the freedom of people to freely move and freely associate with others = increased rates of death across all generations of humanity.

No I won’t take your word for it. You need to do better.
I don't GAS whether you take my for it or not.

I am absolutely correct as far as my analysis of this entire issue is concerned.

What I have written here is as true as me writing  "the sky is blue."

As I said, your arguement is logically consistent. It just doesn’t have anything in the real world to back it up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 05:47:51 PM
Stupid lockdowns, resulting in higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, and other things detrimental to the well being of humans.

Here's some stuff referred to as "evidence". Something you have a distinct aversion to.

Drug abuse:

2019 US Drug Overdose deaths stood at around 72k
2020 US Drug Overdose deaths stood at around 93k

So there's your 21k excess deaths.

(https://i.imgur.com/dCNOWiq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/U31Niqh.png)

Suicide - Overall, down in 2020, but up in some demographics:

While nearly 350,000 Americans died from Covid-19, the number of suicides dropped by 5 percent, to 44,834 deaths in 2020 from 47,511 in 2019. It is the second year in a row that the number has fallen, after cresting in 2018.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-suicide-cdc.html

0 Excess deaths

2020 All Cause Excess Dearths:

During January 26, 2020–February 27, 2021, an estimated 545,600–660,200 more persons than expected died in the United States from all causes
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7015a4.htm

You need to explain the 500-600k excess deaths not attributed to what you listed. Have at it, and attempt to provide evidence rather than opinion and assertion.
titles.
THANKS FOR AGREEING WITH ME!!!

Presenting 2019 statistics is going to help your nimrodic position.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 24, 2021, 05:57:06 PM
When you ask your pharmacist for informed consent.

https://twitter.com/RastaRedpill/status/1474291409113042955
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 24, 2021, 06:11:35 PM
When you ask your pharmacist for informed consent.

https://twitter.com/RastaRedpill/status/1474291409113042955

Yep, I'm sure he represents all pharmacists.

As others mentioned on twitter, he seems a tad on the spectrum. Kind of seems exploitative more than informative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 06:35:34 PM
When you ask your pharmacist for informed consent.

https://twitter.com/RastaRedpill/status/1474291409113042955

Yep, I'm sure he represents all pharmacists.

As others mentioned on twitter, he seems a tad on the spectrum. Kind of seems exploitative more than informative.
What would be more convincing is you posting a pharmacist with the ability to answer all the questions posed shown here in this simple Twitter post in a straightforward manner. None of the answers he provided support informed consent.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 24, 2021, 07:07:30 PM
What would be more convincing is you posting a pharmacist with the ability to answer all the questions posed shown here in this simple Twitter post in a straightforward manner. None of the answers he provided support informed consent.



(https://i.imgur.com/XoCjxms.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 24, 2021, 07:11:23 PM
What would be more convincing is you posting a pharmacist with the ability to answer all the questions posed shown here in this simple Twitter post in a straightforward manner. None of the answers he provided support informed consent.



(https://i.imgur.com/XoCjxms.png)
LMMFAO! You see anything in there remotely similar to what Tom presented?

Answer=no.

No one wants to see a controlled narrative.

Life =/= controlled narrative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on December 24, 2021, 08:02:03 PM
CNN: Trump touts effectiveness of Covid-19 vaccine.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/23/politics/trump-vaccine-covid-effectiveness/index.html

There.

Your orange God tells you to get the damn vaccine. Are we done here Tom?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on December 25, 2021, 01:15:48 AM
What, you need evidence that restrictions on freedom of movement and free association with other humans is detrimental to the health and well-being of humans?
Yes.

Is it boomers reaching end of life or is it the suggestion that people not hang out in groups without masks indoors for a few months last year that's causing persistent deaths to this day?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 25, 2021, 03:52:49 AM
What would be more convincing is you posting a pharmacist with the ability to answer all the questions posed shown here in this simple Twitter post in a straightforward manner. None of the answers he provided support informed consent.

(https://i.imgur.com/XoCjxms.png)
LMMFAO! You see anything in there remotely similar to what Tom presented?

Answer=no.

No one wants to see a controlled narrative.

Life =/= controlled narrative.

All you asked for was:

- Pharmacists
- answer(ing) all the questions posed shown here...in a straightforward manner

Asked for and delivered.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Kangaroony on December 25, 2021, 08:34:10 AM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

I'd have to disagree with the conclusions you've drawn.

Of course the older demographic(s) will have a higher rate of death, but it can't be totally correlated
with the incidence of contracting Coronavirus.  You have to consider the far higher incidence of pre-existing
medical conditions as one ages, an increasingly deficient immune system, a degradation of vital bodily
organ function, a slowing metabolic rate, and an inevitable physical body frailty.

In fact, the incidence of contracting Coronavirus is more than three times higher in the 20 - 39 year
age group than it is in the 60- 79 year age group. [Australian NNDSS, 24 December.]

And of course the world record incidence and death rate has everything to do with Trump.  The following
abbreviated list of his stuff-ups is a long one, but proves the fact that Trump actually had not the faintest
notion of what he was talking about, downplayed the seriousness of the pandemic for 4 months, ignored
advice from epidemiologists and CDC data, and caused thousands of unnecessary deaths.

January:  "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s —going to be just fine".

"We do have a plan and we think it’s going to be handled very well. We’ve already handled it very well. We’re in very good shape".

"It will all work out well".

"We have the best experts anywhere in the world, and they are on top of it 24/7!"

"We have very little problem in this country at this moment —we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us".

February:  "My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from this threat".

Trump again claims  the coronavirus is “under control” in an impromptu South Lawn press conference.

"We’re very —very cognizant of everything going on. We have it very much under control in this country".

"When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done".

"It’s going to disappear. One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear".

March:  Trump spent much of the month promoting potential treatments like hydroxychloroquine.

He walked back previous statements downplaying the coronavirus by comparing it to the seasonal flu.

"The US has only 129 cases and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!"

Trump says falsely that “anybody that wants a test can get a test”.

He again compares the coronavirus to the common flu, a comparison which at that time had already been debunked.

Trump makes an error-ridden prime-time address from the Oval Office —"The vast majority of Americans, the risk is very, very low".

He incorrectly claims that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine for treating Covid-19.

Trump says "it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if things don’t go as planned it’s not going to kill anybody".

He again touts hydroxychloroquine —"Let’s see if it works. I happen to feel good about it, but who knows, I’ve been right a lot".

Trump says "I would love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by Easter".

"If we have between 100,000 and 200,000 we’ve all together done a very good job", Trump says.

April: Trump claims to have the legal right to overrule governors’ shelter-in-place orders, asserting that the president’s “authority is total.”

He floats bleach as a potential coronavirus treatment:  "And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs".

May:  Trump claims that the US is “the world leader” in responding to the coronavirus, and claims that the US coronavirus response "is the toast of world leaders".

"We are getting great marks for the handling of the Coronavirus pandemic;  Compare that to the Obama/Sleepy Joe disaster known as H1N1 Swine Flu".

Trump tells reporters that he is taking hydroxychloroquine.

Etc, etc, etc...

—The man was an utter disgrace as a world leader, and has made the US a laughing stock amongst
similarly wealthy, enlightened Western countries.     And, sadly, a source of pity.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 25, 2021, 09:04:46 AM
What would be more convincing is you posting a pharmacist with the ability to answer all the questions posed shown here in this simple Twitter post in a straightforward manner. None of the answers he provided support informed consent.

(https://i.imgur.com/XoCjxms.png)
LMMFAO! You see anything in there remotely similar to what Tom presented?

Answer=no.

No one wants to see a controlled narrative.

Life =/= controlled narrative.

All you asked for was:

- Pharmacists
- answer(ing) all the questions posed shown here...in a straightforward manner

Asked for and delivered.
LMMFAO!

Wrong again.

Nothing live, no dialogue between people.

Just a fucking script. READ WHAT IS ON THE CUE CARD OR ELSE!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on December 25, 2021, 09:12:17 AM
As stated elsewhere,  more people born 1945-1960 equals more deaths now.

Has nothing to do with a president or politics.

People achieving the end of natural life expectancy.

I'd have to disagree with the conclusions you've drawn.

Of course the older demographic(s) will have a higher rate of death, but it can't be totally correlated
with the incidence of contracting Coronavirus.  You have to consider the far higher incidence of pre-existing
medical conditions as one ages, an increasingly deficient immune system, a degradation of vital bodily
organ function, a slowing metabolic rate, and an inevitable physical body frailty.

In fact, the incidence of contracting Coronavirus is more than three times higher in the 20 - 39 year
age group than it is in the 60- 79 year age group. [Australian NNDSS, 24 December.]

And of course the world record incidence and death rate has everything to do with Trump.  The following
abbreviated list of his stuff-ups is a long one, but proves the fact that Trump actually had not the faintest
notion of what he was talking about, downplayed the seriousness of the pandemic for 4 months, ignored
advice from epidemiologists and CDC data, and caused thousands of unnecessary deaths.

January:  "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s —going to be just fine".

"We do have a plan and we think it’s going to be handled very well. We’ve already handled it very well. We’re in very good shape".

"It will all work out well".

"We have the best experts anywhere in the world, and they are on top of it 24/7!"

"We have very little problem in this country at this moment —we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us".

February:  "My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from this threat".

Trump again claims  the coronavirus is “under control” in an impromptu South Lawn press conference.

"We’re very —very cognizant of everything going on. We have it very much under control in this country".

"When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done".

"It’s going to disappear. One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear".

March:  Trump spent much of the month promoting potential treatments like hydroxychloroquine.

He walked back previous statements downplaying the coronavirus by comparing it to the seasonal flu.

"The US has only 129 cases and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!"

Trump says falsely that “anybody that wants a test can get a test”.

He again compares the coronavirus to the common flu, a comparison which at that time had already been debunked.

Trump makes an error-ridden prime-time address from the Oval Office —"The vast majority of Americans, the risk is very, very low".

He incorrectly claims that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine for treating Covid-19.

Trump says "it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if things don’t go as planned it’s not going to kill anybody".

He again touts hydroxychloroquine —"Let’s see if it works. I happen to feel good about it, but who knows, I’ve been right a lot".

Trump says "I would love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by Easter".

"If we have between 100,000 and 200,000 we’ve all together done a very good job", Trump says.

April: Trump claims to have the legal right to overrule governors’ shelter-in-place orders, asserting that the president’s “authority is total.”

He floats bleach as a potential coronavirus treatment:  "And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs".

May:  Trump claims that the US is “the world leader” in responding to the coronavirus, and claims that the US coronavirus response "is the toast of world leaders".

"We are getting great marks for the handling of the Coronavirus pandemic;  Compare that to the Obama/Sleepy Joe disaster known as H1N1 Swine Flu".

Trump tells reporters that he is taking hydroxychloroquine.

Etc, etc, etc...

—The man was an utter disgrace as a world leader, and has made the US a laughing stock amongst
similarly wealthy, enlightened Western countries.     And, sadly, a source of pity.
Anyone who thinks Trump actually advocated the physical ingestion of bleach is in possession of or is:

The level of intellect comparable to a one cell organism
OR
A gaslighting leftist

Regardless, you wrote nothing counter to the facts I posted..
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 25, 2021, 07:23:35 PM
Hey look, the leftists claiming that the blank inserts was unrepresentative of most pharmacies were completely wrong. J&J is also distributing blank package inserts. A pharmacy technician opens a sealed box on camera.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/veREM17I9j16/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 25, 2021, 11:38:29 PM
What would be more convincing is you posting a pharmacist with the ability to answer all the questions posed shown here in this simple Twitter post in a straightforward manner. None of the answers he provided support informed consent.

(https://i.imgur.com/XoCjxms.png)
LMMFAO! You see anything in there remotely similar to what Tom presented?

Answer=no.

No one wants to see a controlled narrative.

Life =/= controlled narrative.

All you asked for was:

- Pharmacists
- answer(ing) all the questions posed shown here...in a straightforward manner

Asked for and delivered.
LMMFAO!

Wrong again.

Nothing live, no dialogue between people.

Just a fucking script. READ WHAT IS ON THE CUE CARD OR ELSE!!!

All you asked for was:

- Pharmacists
- answer(ing) all the questions posed shown here...in a straightforward manner

Asked for and delivered.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 25, 2021, 11:44:14 PM
Hey look, the leftists claiming that the blank inserts was unrepresentative of most pharmacies were completely wrong. J&J is also distributing blank package inserts. A pharmacy technician opens a sealed box on camera.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/veREM17I9j16/

From May, 2021:

Fact Check-Blank Johnson & Johnson vaccine insert is not proof the company is hiding safety and efficacy information (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safety-idUSL1N2MY1TT)
Suggestions that Johnson & Johnson has included blank inserts in medical packaging to conceal the safety and efficacy information of its COVID-19 vaccine are false. The insert was intentionally left blank – and it includes a QR code and website to see the most up-to-date information on the jab...
“The U.S. package insert that accompanies the Janssen COVID-19 vaccine includes information regarding how to electronically access expiry dates and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)-authorized Fact Sheets, which are available at www.vaxcheck.jnj,” a Johnson & Johnson spokesperson told Reuters in an email.


Wow, you guys will fall for anything that even remotely fits your narrative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 26, 2021, 01:21:37 AM
We cracked the code! It’s not COVID, it’s deep-state anthrax attacks:

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/rumor-reawaken-america-tour-anthrax-attack/

Checkmate, scientists.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: RonJ on December 26, 2021, 02:51:25 AM
I might have fallen for it but I can spot CGI and wires too. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 30, 2021, 12:38:41 AM
The issue is that the two products are "legally distinct", as indicated in the article.

EUA drugs and vaccines are given a special status that prevents lawsuits. You can't sue if an EUA drug or vaccine injures or harms you, but you have more legal standing to sue if an approved drug or vaccine injures or harms you. This is why they are playing games and not releasing the FDA approved version.

Apparently you are incorrect:

The false claim that the fully-approved Pfizer vaccine lacks liability protection
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-claim-that-fully-approved-pfizer-vaccine-lacks-liability-protection/)
“The statement that the products are ‘legally distinct with certain differences’ refers to the differences in manufacturing information included in the respective regulatory submissions,” said Pfizer spokesperson Sharon J. Castillo in an email. “Specifically, while the products are manufactured using the same processes, they may have been manufactured at different sites or using raw materials from different approved suppliers. FDA closely reviews all manufacturing steps, and has found explicitly that the EUA and BLA [biologics license application] products are equivalent.”

“The liability protections afforded under the PREP Act are tied to the declared public health emergency and not whether the vaccine is sold under an EUA,” Castillo said. “Therefore, both Comirnaty and the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine receive the same liability protections as medical countermeasures against covid-19.


A lawyer says that you are wrong about this and that EUA vaccines do come with special benefits.

https://twitter.com/FatEmperor/status/1475930299674636288
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on December 30, 2021, 05:17:11 AM
The issue is that the two products are "legally distinct", as indicated in the article.

EUA drugs and vaccines are given a special status that prevents lawsuits. You can't sue if an EUA drug or vaccine injures or harms you, but you have more legal standing to sue if an approved drug or vaccine injures or harms you. This is why they are playing games and not releasing the FDA approved version.

Apparently you are incorrect:

The false claim that the fully-approved Pfizer vaccine lacks liability protection
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-claim-that-fully-approved-pfizer-vaccine-lacks-liability-protection/)
“The statement that the products are ‘legally distinct with certain differences’ refers to the differences in manufacturing information included in the respective regulatory submissions,” said Pfizer spokesperson Sharon J. Castillo in an email. “Specifically, while the products are manufactured using the same processes, they may have been manufactured at different sites or using raw materials from different approved suppliers. FDA closely reviews all manufacturing steps, and has found explicitly that the EUA and BLA [biologics license application] products are equivalent.”

“The liability protections afforded under the PREP Act are tied to the declared public health emergency and not whether the vaccine is sold under an EUA,” Castillo said. “Therefore, both Comirnaty and the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine receive the same liability protections as medical countermeasures against covid-19.


A lawyer says that you are wrong about this and that EUA vaccines do come with special benefits.

Lawyers say lots of things. So you found a lawyer that disagrees with the Washington Post assessment. So what?

You might want to take a note from Dr. Robert Malone who is referenced in the WaPo article I cited above (Your Lawyer was also mentioned in the article as he had made the same erroneous claims as Dr. Malone):

These claims are false, based on a misunderstanding of the law, as Malone acknowledged after we contacted him.

Malone quickly conceded his statement on the Bannon show was wrong. “When one is doing rapid analysis on the fly, one does not always get everything right,” he told The Fact Checker. “On this particular legal liability issue I did not hunt down the details myself, and relied on comments from a third party lawyer which were not fully correct.” He said the statements we received from Pfizer and HHS “are consistent with my current understanding.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 30, 2021, 05:36:11 AM
Lawyers say lots of things. So you found a lawyer that disagrees with the Washington Post assessment. So what?

The person who wrote the article you posted is not a lawyer. The source I presented is a lawyer. You are one lawyer short of answering a legal question.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 30, 2021, 11:46:02 AM
Lawyers say lots of things. So you found a lawyer that disagrees with the Washington Post assessment. So what?

The person who wrote the article you posted is not a lawyer. The source I presented is a lawyer. You are one lawyer short of answering a legal question.

You are one fallacy heavy of a real arguement.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on December 30, 2021, 12:28:11 PM
So you found a lawyer that disagrees with the Washington Post assessment. So what?
So this is one of Tom’s go to debating techniques. It’s very dishonest in my view.

In any field of expertise like doctors and lawyers there are enough of them that you’re going to get a range of opinions. So it’s generally easy to find someone who backs up what you want to believe, hold them up as an expert and declare yourself right. I’d suggest that’s only valid if their opinion is common amongst professionals in the field. If it isn’t then it’s cherry picking.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 30, 2021, 04:10:38 PM
It is more as if I went to an actual lawyer for a legal opinion and you keep shouting that your cousin knows legal stuff and he could do the same or better as someone with a Juris Doctorate and that the lawyer is a quack.

Just... no.

In the video this lawyer states that he makes a living from suing pharmaceutical companies. It's not just any lawyer, it's a specialist to the niche field. That puts him far above any non-lawyer who doesn't know the intricacies of the law. You may as well be claiming that a homeless person is your source, as you don't have anything comparable.

This is just like the time you claimed that a comedian without credentials was a better authority on economic and mathematical questions than someone with a PhD in those fields.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on December 30, 2021, 04:31:18 PM
It is more as if I went to an actual lawyer for a legal opinion and you keep shouting that your cousin knows legal stuff and he could do the same or better as someone with a Juris Doctorate and that the lawyer is a quack.

Just... no.

It’s almost as if you aren’t interested in addressing the substance of anything but as AATW said, cherry-picking someone who agrees with you. It’s a dead giveaway that you describe the Washington Post as a “cousin who knows legal stuff”.

Quote
In the video this lawyer states that he makes a living from suing pharmaceutical companies. It's not just any lawyer, it's a specialist to the niche field. That put him far above any non-lawyer who doesn't know the intricacies of the law. You may as well be claiming that a homeless person is your source, as you don't have anything comparable.

What about Castillo, the Pfizer representative who makes a living off of this? It’s incredible that you are so biased that you are willing to ignore these things.

Quote
This is just like the time you claimed that a comedian had better credentials than someone with a PhD and was an authority on economic and mathematical questions.  ::)

They weren’t an authority on mathematical questions, how did you decide that? Let me guess, a source you agree with declared them that?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on December 30, 2021, 06:10:52 PM
It is more as if I went to an actual lawyer for a legal opinion
There are a lot of those. Do they all have the same opinion? What a coincidence that you keep finding experts who just happen to say things which fit your narrative.

Quote
This is just like the time you claimed that a comedian without credentials
By which you mean someone who has a maths degree, is a former maths teacher and has written several books about maths?
The level of maths he explained in that video were not particularly advanced. At no point did you try and address his argument. He wasn’t saying what you wanted so his qualifications are downplayed. One person who happened to say what you wanted was the expert you trusted. What a coincidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 03, 2022, 08:30:34 PM
Fauci claims that omicron breakthrough infections among the vaccinated are so severe, it is best for vaccinated people to only hang out with vaccinated people (who can spread the virus regardless).
https://youtu.be/wZ7xKo5218c
"The first time in history the ineffectiveness of a medicine is blamed on those who haven't taken it." - Dr. Robert Malone
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 12:44:36 AM
I have been ill. Very ill.

I spent 3 whole days in bed. Unable to sleep, just sweating and sweating, a headache the whole time and all my muscles and skin was sore. My eyes hurt too much to watch TV or read so I just lay there. Bored and unhappy. Its been a long time since I've been that ill. I lost half a stone in 3 days and I was only 11 stone to begin with.

Now I don't believe it was Covid. Felt exactly like a 24 hour flu, albeit lasted longer. No snotty nose, no sore throat, no cough. It was just a straight up fever. However, this does not matter. The fact that I am unvaccinated seems to mean that
a) it must be covid and
b) I thoroughly deserve to have been that ill

I'm finding the vaccinated not to be the compassionate and loving people they profess to be. It seems they aren't interested in my welfare at all. They are only interested in being right and if my death proves that, it's a good thing. Pious bastards.   >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 04, 2022, 12:48:22 AM
Now I don't believe it was Covid.
Are you telling me you got feverishly ill during a pandemic and you didn't bother to even take a self-test for the disease that's going around?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 12:52:53 AM
Now I don't believe it was Covid.
Are you telling me you got feverishly ill during a pandemic and you didn't bother to even take a self-test for the disease that's going around?
I could barely crawl out of my bed for a shit, let alone go out to a place to get a test. Besides ... in my room I infected no one. Going out to get a test out of 'intellectual curiosity' would be irresponsible because I would be out potentially spreading whatever the hell it was that I had.

I decided ... am I dying? No, probably not. Ok, then I'm not going to hospital so here I shall stay.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 04, 2022, 01:01:18 AM
I could barely crawl out of my bed for a shit, let alone go out to a place to get a test.
Ah, so it just didn't occur to you that it might be prudent to buy a self-test before you got sick while a deadly virus was making the rounds.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 01:03:59 AM
I could barely crawl out of my bed for a shit, let alone go out to a place to get a test.
Ah, so it just didn't occur to you that it might be prudent to buy a self-test before you got sick while a deadly virus was making the rounds.
Which deadly virus is making the rounds?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 04, 2022, 01:07:13 AM
Which deadly virus is making the rounds?
I think you know.

Also, spreading the virus while you're sick isn't the only reason to get a test. How many people have you been in contact with while refusing to wear a mask during the incubation period? Have you informed any of them that you were sick? Do you know if any of them have symptoms? Have you taken any responsible steps at all?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 04, 2022, 01:10:14 AM
Starting to feel a bit nervous for all the poor bastards that spent time with you at the pub on NYE…
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 01:17:42 AM
Which deadly virus is making the rounds?
I think you know.
I'm not aware of any virus killing otherwise healthy people. Maybe you've been gas lit by the media or something?

Also, spreading the virus while you're sick isn't the only reason to get a test. How many people have you been in contact with while refusing to wear a mask during the incubation period? Have you informed any of them that you were sick? Do you know if any of them have symptoms? Have you taken any responsible steps at all?
This is what I mean. You've replied 3 times now, asked a bunch of accusatory questions and not one of them is "Are you feeling better?".  >o<

Starting to feel a bit nervous for all the poor bastards that spent time with you at the pub on NYE…
I couldn't go out NYE. I was already slipping in and out of the shadow realm by then. I last went out on Christmas Eve for drinks, but saw a panto on the 28th. It is likely in the theatre where I picked up this bug because I was very ill from the 31st morning onwards.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 04, 2022, 03:08:06 AM
Which deadly virus is making the rounds?
I think you know.
I'm not aware of any virus killing otherwise healthy people. Maybe you've been gas lit by the media or something?

Ignorance isn’t an excuse. (https://www.kktv.com/2021/08/23/though-young-healthy-unvaccinated-father-dies-covid/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on January 04, 2022, 05:40:47 AM
I'm sorry you're feeling poorly, Thork.  But those Herman Cain Awards are not a thing someone can receive without considerable sacrifice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 04, 2022, 07:32:48 AM
I'm not aware of any virus killing otherwise healthy people.
What a strange definition of “deadly”.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 10:40:31 AM
I'm sorry you're feeling poorly, Thork.
Finally. Someone with a little empathy.

But those Herman Cain Awards are not a thing someone can receive without considerable sacrifice.
I've never heard of this Herman guy and a read of his wiki page doesn't give me any clues as to why you mentioned him.

I'm not aware of any virus killing otherwise healthy people.
What a strange definition of “deadly”.
Mmmm. I hadn't considered that you might want to call a virus that doesn't kill people, "deadly". ...  No, I'm sorry. I've thought about it and a deadly virus needs to kill people. I'm just old fashioned like that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 10:47:29 AM
Holy shit. An expert with a brain.

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59865108
It is not affordable or sustainable to keep vaccinating everyone against Covid-19 on the planet regularly, a UK vaccine scientist says.

Prof Sir Andrew Pollard, who helped develop the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, says the most at risk should be identified and prioritised instead.

I've been saying this since the vaccine was invented. Its taken one of the finest medical minds in the country 2 years to come to this revelation and he's a lone voice. Just jab the vulnerable. Requiring someone like me to be jabbed 3 times in 18 months and to carry a passport to prove it, under threat of health discrimination of products and services is utter madness.

Meanwhile the UK is making children wear masks in school again next term.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 04, 2022, 10:52:36 AM
How are ya feeling Thork?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 10:56:21 AM
How are ya feeling Thork?
Better thanks. I don't feel ill any more. I just feel weak. I'm just going to take it easy for a few more days before I try anything strenuous.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 04, 2022, 11:07:26 AM
I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.

By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day, with outstanding comic timing. I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 11:24:58 AM
I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.
If it kills one single person who may be vulnerable, is that enough to consider it deadly?

Is laughter deadly?
One ancient account of the death of Chrysippus, a third-century BC Greek Stoic philosopher, tells that he died of laughter after he saw a donkey eating his figs; he told a slave to give the donkey neat wine to drink to wash them down with, and then, "...having laughed too much, he died". I don't get why a donkey eating figs is funny but I guess you had to be there. Should we all be careful about laughing? How many people need to die of laughter before you consider it deadly? What is the threshold before you begin to panic?


By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day
Are we still talking about covid or have you moved the conversation on?

I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
I haven't had any cold like symptoms. I had a raging fever for 3 days and then now I'm fine. Also, I recently posted some pictures of my god-like physique. I'm likely in the top 5% of fitness for people on earth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 04, 2022, 11:36:21 AM
If it kills one single person who may be vulnerable, is that enough to consider it deadly?
No.
But the mortality rate of Covid - and the chances of it requiring hospitalisation - is high enough to suggest that it was a situation which required a response. One can have a sensible debate about what that response should have been and what our government got right and wrong of course.

Quote
I'm likely in the top 5% of fitness for people on earth.
And yet Covid laid you low for 3 days. So have a think about what that means for people who are older and less fit.
Come on, I reckon you'll connect the dots and get there if you really try.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 04, 2022, 11:52:54 AM
I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.

By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day, with outstanding comic timing. I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?

That's almost exactly what the "unenlightened," have been saying all along, isn't it? That everyone would eventually get the virus? Maybe even two, three, or four times in their life? Because, surprise(!!!!) that is the NATURE of respiratory infections?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 04, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
If it kills one single person who may be vulnerable, is that enough to consider it deadly?
No.
But the mortality rate of Covid - and the chances of it requiring hospitalisation - is high enough
No, it isn't.

And it never will be.

Never had a chance to be.

It is like omicron = moronic when it comes to analysis of the mortality rates and hospitalization rates as all those numbers were drastically inflated due to government funding rewarding the overreporting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 04, 2022, 11:57:57 AM
I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.

By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day, with outstanding comic timing. I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?

That's almost exactly what the "unenlightened," have been saying all along, isn't it? That everyone would eventually get the virus? Maybe even two, three, or four times in their life? Because, surprise(!!!!) that is the NATURE of respiratory infections?


They key is 'bit of a cold'.
The vaccine isn't going to prevent everyone from getting infected.  Thats impossible.  Instead, it prevents you from having the full symptoms if any at all.
Which is the point since its the people with severe symptoms that usually die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 04, 2022, 11:59:33 AM
I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.

By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day, with outstanding comic timing. I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?

That's almost exactly what the "unenlightened," have been saying all along, isn't it? That everyone would eventually get the virus? Maybe even two, three, or four times in their life? Because, surprise(!!!!) that is the NATURE of respiratory infections?


They key is 'bit of a cold'.
The vaccine isn't going to prevent everyone from getting infected.  Thats impossible.  Instead, it prevents you from having the full symptoms if any at all.
Which is the point since its the people with severe symptoms that usually die.
"bit of a cold."

Sounds like the symptoms of omicron in UNVACCINATED individuals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 04, 2022, 12:05:01 PM
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?
Twice.

And yes, the vaccine doesn't put a magic forcefield around you and stop you getting infected. What it does do is prepare your body so that if you do get infected the symptoms are typically milder. Which is exactly what happened. My wife and myself both got it over Christmas and it's been little more than a cold. The vaccine did it's job. Good old science, eh?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 12:07:39 PM
Quote
I'm likely in the top 5% of fitness for people on earth.
And yet Covid laid you low for 3 days. So have a think about what that means for people who are older and less fit.
Come on, I reckon you'll connect the dots and get there if you really try.

Two points.

1) Why can't you learn to quote properly? You've been at this site forever. You must know how to do this by now.
2) I never said I had covid. You see, I just said I was ill. There are very very many diseases out there, but just like OUR NHS (peace be upon it), you are quick to jump to the conclusion that it is covid and therefore I deserved to have been ill for not being vaccinated. I maintain it was a seasonal flu. That still exists you know.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/flu/
^ I had all these symptoms minus the last 2.

I did not have loss of smell or taste, covid toe, runny nose, sneezing, the continuous cough or pretty much any of the things you'd expect from covid.

This is my point. You're all covid obsessed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 04, 2022, 12:12:58 PM
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?
Twice.

And yes, the vaccine doesn't put a magic forcefield around you and stop you getting infected. What it does do is prepare your body so that if you do get infected the symptoms are typically milder. Which is exactly what happened. My wife and myself both got it over Christmas and it's been little more than a cold. The vaccine did it's job. Good old science, eh?
Twice jabbed then.

I am unvaccinated in regard to Covid, as are many others in my circle, and they were as unfortunate as you, having the nerve to get the Covid  too.

Surprisingly, their symptoms were also very mild.

SHOCKING!!!

It is as if NOT BEING VACCINATED results in having the EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS as BEING VACCINATED!!!

Whoda thunk!?!?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 04, 2022, 02:20:49 PM
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?
Twice.

And yes, the vaccine doesn't put a magic forcefield around you and stop you getting infected. What it does do is prepare your body so that if you do get infected the symptoms are typically milder. Which is exactly what happened. My wife and myself both got it over Christmas and it's been little more than a cold. The vaccine did it's job. Good old science, eh?
Twice jabbed then.

I am unvaccinated in regard to Covid, as are many others in my circle, and they were as unfortunate as you, having the nerve to get the Covid  too.

Surprisingly, their symptoms were also very mild.

SHOCKING!!!

It is as if NOT BEING VACCINATED results in having the EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS as BEING VACCINATED!!!

Whoda thunk!?!?

Sometimes.
Other times they die.



I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.

By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day, with outstanding comic timing. I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?

That's almost exactly what the "unenlightened," have been saying all along, isn't it? That everyone would eventually get the virus? Maybe even two, three, or four times in their life? Because, surprise(!!!!) that is the NATURE of respiratory infections?


They key is 'bit of a cold'.
The vaccine isn't going to prevent everyone from getting infected.  Thats impossible.  Instead, it prevents you from having the full symptoms if any at all.
Which is the point since its the people with severe symptoms that usually die.
"bit of a cold."

Sounds like the symptoms of omicron in UNVACCINATED individuals.
Maybe in some, but not all. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 04, 2022, 02:25:42 PM
This is what I mean. You've replied 3 times now, asked a bunch of accusatory questions and not one of them is "Are you feeling better?".  >o<
Why do you expect concern from others when you show so little concern for others?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 04, 2022, 03:01:42 PM
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?
Twice.

And yes, the vaccine doesn't put a magic forcefield around you and stop you getting infected. What it does do is prepare your body so that if you do get infected the symptoms are typically milder. Which is exactly what happened. My wife and myself both got it over Christmas and it's been little more than a cold. The vaccine did it's job. Good old science, eh?
Twice jabbed then.

I am unvaccinated in regard to Covid, as are many others in my circle, and they were as unfortunate as you, having the nerve to get the Covid  too.

Surprisingly, their symptoms were also very mild.

SHOCKING!!!

It is as if NOT BEING VACCINATED results in having the EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS as BEING VACCINATED!!!

Whoda thunk!?!?

Sometimes.
Other times they die.
Really?

You have some actual numbers of omicron infections resulting in the death of a person who was unvaccinated?
I've thought about it
This seems unlikely.
Quote
and a deadly virus needs to kill people.
It doesn't need to kill everyone to be considered deadly. No-one has ever claimed Covid has a 100% kill rate.

By the way, I tested positive last Thursday. The missus tested positive on Christmas Day, with outstanding comic timing. I tested negative then but have now succumbed.
For me it's just been a bit of a cold. So maybe you're a bit of a wimp?
Wow, you were were thrice jabbed with the vaccine and still got the Covid!?!?

That's almost exactly what the "unenlightened," have been saying all along, isn't it? That everyone would eventually get the virus? Maybe even two, three, or four times in their life? Because, surprise(!!!!) that is the NATURE of respiratory infections?


They key is 'bit of a cold'.
The vaccine isn't going to prevent everyone from getting infected.  Thats impossible.  Instead, it prevents you from having the full symptoms if any at all.
Which is the point since its the people with severe symptoms that usually die.
"bit of a cold."

Sounds like the symptoms of omicron in UNVACCINATED individuals.
Maybe in some, but not all.
Actually, omicron presents with the symptoms of a cold even in unvaccinated individuals.

You do know what the symptoms of a cold are, correct?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on January 04, 2022, 03:12:45 PM
This is what I mean. You've replied 3 times now, asked a bunch of accusatory questions and not one of them is "Are you feeling better?".  >o<
Why do you expect concern from others when you show so little concern for others?

the best part is the way he manages to put "who cares if other people die, i'm fine," and "why isn't anyone concerned about me" in the same fucking breath.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 04:20:08 PM
This is what I mean. You've replied 3 times now, asked a bunch of accusatory questions and not one of them is "Are you feeling better?".  >o<
Why do you expect concern from others when you show so little concern for others?
I've been coming back to this website for a decade now to make sure you haven't killed yourself!  >o<

the best part is the way he manages to put "who cares if other people die, i'm fine," and "why isn't anyone concerned about me" in the same fucking breath.
Dead nobodies aren't the same as dead people you know. The world is enormous. If one of 7 billion people falls into a woodchipper today, that's unfortunate but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. If my next door neighbour falls into a woodchipper, I'll go to the funeral and ask the family if there is anything I can do to help. Either way though, I can take a view on it that although woodchippers are deadlyTM, we shouldn't ban woodchippers, nor should we force everyone on earth to have a license to operate one that needs renewing every 4-6 months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on January 04, 2022, 04:47:09 PM
Either way though, I can take a view on it that although woodchippers are deadlyTM, we shouldn't ban woodchippers, nor should we force everyone on earth to have a license to operate one that needs renewing every 4-6 months.
True and we all know that falling into woodchippers is highly contagious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 04:50:57 PM
Either way though, I can take a view on it that although woodchippers are deadlyTM, we shouldn't ban woodchippers, nor should we force everyone on earth to have a license to operate one that needs renewing every 4-6 months.
True and we all know that falling into woodchippers is highly contagious.
The more woodchippers that are out there, the more likely people will fall into them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on January 04, 2022, 04:59:59 PM
Either way though, I can take a view on it that although woodchippers are deadlyTM, we shouldn't ban woodchippers, nor should we force everyone on earth to have a license to operate one that needs renewing every 4-6 months.
True and we all know that falling into woodchippers is highly contagious.
The more woodchippers that are out there, the more likely people will fall into them.
One will fall in and the sickness will spread like wildfire. Neighbor after neighbor taking the plunge into the chipper. Why haven't we required licenses yet??
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 04, 2022, 05:21:14 PM
Either way though, I can take a view on it that although woodchippers are deadlyTM, we shouldn't ban woodchippers, nor should we force everyone on earth to have a license to operate one that needs renewing every 4-6 months.
True and we all know that falling into woodchippers is highly contagious.
The more woodchippers that are out there, the more likely people will fall into them.
One will fall in and the sickness will spread like wildfire. Neighbor after neighbor taking the plunge into the chipper. Why haven't we required licenses yet??
I'm just not seeing the data. Also, how many of these people were already dead when they fell into the woodchipper? I think you've been reading too many mainstream media headlines about woodchippers aggressively chopping people up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on January 04, 2022, 05:39:42 PM
I think you've been reading too many mainstream media headlines about woodchippers aggressively chopping people up.
Nah, I work in healthcare admin.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on January 04, 2022, 06:06:59 PM
I'm finding the vaccinated not to be the compassionate and loving people they profess to be. It seems they aren't interested in my welfare at all. They are only interested in being right and if my death proves that, it's a good thing. Pious bastards.   >:(

I don't know where you get your information about vaccinated people but we are not compassionate and loving people concerned about being right or concerned about your welfare.

We're taking up arms to defend our communities and families against a zombie horde of ignorant rednecks spreading disease because they believe stupid crap on the internet.

We must do whatever we can to stop the unvaccinated before they succeed in breeding their ultimate variant to wipe us all out.

It's kind of the same way you feel about homosexuals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on January 05, 2022, 02:03:36 AM
I've been around so many peeps for the holidays, close quarters, even kissed a women vaccinated who got it. I should of tongued her. Daughter unvaxxed got it same crowd, sore throat and headache, tossed her some Ivermectin early with C and told her to man up. 4 days now, over it. This thing is a nothing burger.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 05, 2022, 02:16:16 AM
Should of
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 05, 2022, 09:00:13 AM
This thing is a nothing burger.
I bet all the dead people feel pretty stupid now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 05, 2022, 12:02:59 PM
This thing is a nothing burger.
I bet all the dead people feel pretty stupid now.
Doris was going to die before her 97th birthday, coronavirus or not.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on January 05, 2022, 12:55:40 PM
I've been around so many peeps for the holidays, close quarters, even kissed a women vaccinated who got it. I should of tongued her. Daughter unvaxxed got it same crowd, sore throat and headache, tossed her some Ivermectin early with C and told her to man up. 4 days now, over it. This thing is a nothing burger.

Yeah I know a guy that said the same thing. Of course, he spent five days on a ventilator in the Intensive Care Unit while the doctors he accused of being charlatans saved his life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 05, 2022, 01:07:43 PM
This thing is a nothing burger.
I bet all the dead people feel pretty stupid now.
I don't care about other people.
Yes yes, you've made that abundantly clear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on January 05, 2022, 02:44:54 PM
This thing is a nothing burger.
I don't care about other people.

This is spooky. That's the same thing that the guy I knew in the ICU said.

Then his wife and children ended up in the same hospital on a different floor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 07, 2022, 08:04:05 AM
Prescription Shirt for the vax and booster junkies

(https://i.imgur.com/n4SRXPV.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 07, 2022, 09:54:55 AM
Prescription Shirt for the vax and booster junkies

(https://i.imgur.com/n4SRXPV.png)
The Meme thread is that way ----->
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 07, 2022, 01:28:11 PM
Prescription Shirt for the vax and booster junkies

Like Trump.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 07, 2022, 02:00:42 PM
She makes a good point

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/oh-my-fucking-god-get-the-fucking-vaccine-already-you-fucking-fucks
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 07, 2022, 05:32:56 PM
She makes a good point

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/oh-my-fucking-god-get-the-fucking-vaccine-already-you-fucking-fucks

All that proves is that the vaccine can bring on debilitating bouts of Tourette's. What a foul mouthed woman.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 07, 2022, 05:49:57 PM
She makes a good point

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/oh-my-fucking-god-get-the-fucking-vaccine-already-you-fucking-fucks

All that proves is that the vaccine can bring on debilitating bouts of Tourette's. What a foul mouthed woman.

Do the bad words offend you, snowflake?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 07, 2022, 06:05:58 PM
All that proves is that the vaccine can bring on debilitating bouts of Tourette's. What a foul mouthed woman.
Tourette's syndrome is an actual medical condition, very few sufferers of which experience coprolalia. Please don't perpetuate harmful stereotypes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 07, 2022, 06:32:13 PM
All that proves is that the vaccine can bring on debilitating bouts of Tourette's. What a foul mouthed woman.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/191/035/135.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on January 07, 2022, 11:07:34 PM
These folks just keep dropping like flies.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/qanon-star-who-said-only-idiots-get-vax-dies-of-covid/ar-AASxG9E?li=BBnb7Kz
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 10, 2022, 06:44:43 AM
Washington Post is literally telling people how to cope.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1473782275296927746
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 10, 2022, 12:07:17 PM
Washington Post is literally telling people how to cope.

“People have feelings, lol” -Tom Bishop
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 10, 2022, 03:31:15 PM
Washington Post is literally telling people how to cope.

I guess you've run out of stuff considering you're digging deep into WaPo all the way down to the 'Wellness' section of the publication.

Here's some other "coping" headlines from the 'Wellness' section you may be concerned with:

- "How to keep yourself and your kids safe around your home treadmill"
- "Do dreams mean anything? Why do I feel like I’m falling? Or wake up paralyzed? We asked experts."
- "Can government policies fix our diets? These 12 ideas might be a start."
- "Gift giving: Is it really the thought that counts? Psychologists weigh in."


Pretty hard-hitting stuff. Keep up the excellent research.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 11, 2022, 04:39:39 AM
Your rebuttal is that they write about other things people are interested in, in other articles? I know you can come up with a better argument than that.  ::)

From the title of the article:

(https://i.imgur.com/5FCDK79.png)

Why should people feel ashamed if it was always known that the vaccines wouldn't actually provide immunity?

There is a clear answer to this. It wasn't "always known". It simply didn't work. Hence the shame for believing one thing and experiencing another. Cope.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 11, 2022, 05:21:41 AM
Your rebuttal is that they write about other things people are interested in, in other articles? I know you can come up with a better argument than that.  ::)

From the title of the article:

(https://i.imgur.com/5FCDK79.png)

Why should people feel ashamed if it was always known that the vaccines wouldn't actually provide immunity?

There is a clear answer to this. It wasn't "always known". It simply didn't work. Hence the shame for believing one thing and experiencing another. Cope.

I'm not even sure what's to argue against. Why is this even an issue for you? The article is about how some people feel ashamed after getting covid when they have done all the right things. It kicks off with an account of a woman who contracted covid and how she felt:

"I feel very embarrassed and dumb,” she says, and upset that she’s causing her family stress. “It’s eye-opening that I feel so much shame from it. I’m realizing how much judgment I was secretly harboring against people who got it before.”

The article is just saying for those who do feel ashamed, shouldn't. It goes on to state:

Some people have misunderstood the role vaccines play in preventing illness, believing that they protect against any and all infection. That’s not the case. As Hotez points out, just two to three months after the Pfizer booster, protection against symptomatic infection from omicron drops from around 70-75 percent to 30-40 percent. “The bottom line is that getting infected with omicron could now happen to anyone,” he says.

30-40% is better than zero.

Again, why do you care about this article?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 11, 2022, 02:25:19 PM
This article is interesting for other reasons. It shows how little we have really moved on since the Black Death, when people believed that the plague was a punishment for their sins.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on January 11, 2022, 06:47:21 PM

Why should people feel ashamed if it was always known that the vaccines wouldn't actually provide immunity?

There is a clear answer to this. It wasn't "always known". It simply didn't work. Hence the shame for believing one thing and experiencing another. Cope.
The vaccines DO work even against Omicron.   No vaccine is 100% effective.  The vaccines are less effective against Omicron than the are against Delta but cases, hospitalizations, and death rates are all much lower for the vaccinated and lower still for the vaccinated and boosted (Growing gap (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/11/briefing/omicron-deaths-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated.html)).  The way to stop new variants is to vaccinated the world.  Had we done so when the vaccines were first available Omicron might well not have emerged.

So of course no one should feel ashamed for getting vaccinated, everyone TODAY should get vaccinated.  We have to cope with the reality that this is not over yet (as it could have been) thanks to the UNvaccinated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 11, 2022, 09:26:16 PM
The way to stop new variants is to vaccinated the world.
How would that stop new variants?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on January 11, 2022, 09:54:47 PM
The way to stop new variants is to vaccinated the world.
How would that stop new variants?
Variants are a natural outcome of (random mistakes during) replication of the virus.  The less replication, the fewer variants.  The more people that are vaccinated thus beating down the virus faster, the less replication there is.  The closer we can get to eradicating the virus the less chances there will be of new variants.  Do you disagree with that?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 11, 2022, 10:38:19 PM
The way to stop new variants is to vaccinated the world.
How would that stop new variants?
Variants are a natural outcome of (random mistakes during) replication of the virus.  The less replication, the fewer variants.  The more people that are vaccinated thus beating down the virus faster, the less replication there is.  The closer we can get to eradicating the virus the less chances there will be of new variants.  Do you disagree with that?

No. The virus only lasts a few weeks and then the effectiveness plummets rather quickly. So you'd need a jab once a month.
The vaccines don't actually stop you getting the disease. So it can still mutate away inside me once vaccinated and I can still pass it on.
It's a coronavirus. It lives in wild animals. Indeed they've found it in everything from Lions in the zoo to people's pet dogs. Vaccinating people wouldn't be enough. you'd have to vaccinate every creature on earth.
The fact that even with vaccines billions of people will still get the disease, you can't eradicate the disease as you mention.

In short, no. I don't agree with you. You don't understand how these vaccines work and are attributing powers to them that they do not possess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on January 11, 2022, 11:02:23 PM
The way to stop new variants is to vaccinated the world.
How would that stop new variants?
Variants are a natural outcome of (random mistakes during) replication of the virus.  The less replication, the fewer variants.  The more people that are vaccinated thus beating down the virus faster, the less replication there is.  The closer we can get to eradicating the virus the less chances there will be of new variants.  Do you disagree with that?

No. The virus only lasts a few weeks and then the effectiveness plummets rather quickly. So you'd need a jab once a month.
Assuming you meant "the vaccines only last a few weeks", you are still wrong.  We may indeed need a new jab every year, or maybe every 6 months, but not monthly.

The vaccines don't actually stop you getting the disease. So it can still mutate away inside me once vaccinated and I can still pass it on.
As I said, if you are vaccinated you beat it down faster so there is less chance of passing it on (but not zero chance of course).

It's a coronavirus. It lives in wild animals. Indeed they've found it in everything from Lions in the zoo to people's pet dogs. Vaccinating people wouldn't be enough. you'd have to vaccinate every creature on earth.
The fact that even with vaccines billions of people will still get the disease, you can't eradicate the disease as you mention.
Eradicate coronaviruses, no of course not.  But eradicate this strain that is causing problems in humans, yes I think that is possible.  And we do not have evidence of it jumping from animals to humans as a common event.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 11, 2022, 11:10:30 PM
Assuming you meant "the vaccines only last a few weeks", you are still wrong.  We may indeed need a new jab every year, or maybe every 6 months, but not monthly.
Well I can take your word for it or a doctor's word for it. Imma choose the doctor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlEYcd1nyI

The vaccines don't actually stop you getting the disease. So it can still mutate away inside me once vaccinated and I can still pass it on.
As I said, if you are vaccinated you beat it down faster so there is less chance of passing it on (but not zero chance of course).
And as I said, there is no 'beating it down'. Even with the jab you can still contract and spread the virus.

Eradicate coronaviruses, no of course not.  But eradicate this strain that is causing problems in humans, yes I think that is possible.  And we do not have evidence of it jumping from animals to humans as a common event.
You can't eradicate something that spreads regardless of whether you vaccinated people or not. These are vaccines ... not cures.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ichoosereality on January 12, 2022, 12:40:18 AM
Assuming you meant "the vaccines only last a few weeks", you are still wrong.  We may indeed need a new jab every year, or maybe every 6 months, but not monthly.
Well I can take your word for it or a doctor's word for it. Imma choose the doctor.
I hate to break it to you but often medical Doctors know little outside of their speciality and are notorious egomaniacs, thinking they know everything.  This one in particular mentions that he likely has better immunity from Covid from getting it than he would have had he been vaccinated.  This is false.  First the two types of immunity are different, and the vaccine induced one has been shown to be  stronger.  From https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/postings/2021/10/covid-immunity-vs-vaccine.php
Quote
A recent CDC study shows that those who have had COVID-19 and are not vaccinated, are more than twice as likely than those who are fully vaccinated to contract COVID-19 for a second time.
You of course should not have to take my word for it, but look for good sources, not just ones that agree with your point of view.  Here are a couple
https://www.medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/05/how-long-will-my-vaccine-protect-me
https://www.verywellhealth.com/length-of-covid-19-vaccine-immunity-5094857

The vaccines don't actually stop you getting the disease. So it can still mutate away inside me once vaccinated and I can still pass it on.
As I said, if you are vaccinated you beat it down faster so there is less chance of passing it on (but not zero chance of course).
And as I said, there is no 'beating it down'. Even with the jab you can still contract and spread the virus.
You are (intentionally?) missing the point.  Of course you must "get" the virus for the vaccines to do anything.  But the point of the vaccines is that they prime your immune system so you can kill it off faster, so it never builds up as much (so you will spread if less) and do so for a (potentially much) shorter time. Not zero possibility of spread, just much less likely.

Eradicate coronaviruses, no of course not.  But eradicate this strain that is causing problems in humans, yes I think that is possible.  And we do not have evidence of it jumping from animals to humans as a common event.
You can't eradicate something that spreads regardless of whether you vaccinated people or not. These are vaccines ... not cures.
See above.  Or see https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/infectious-diseases-that-have-been-globally-eradicated.html, about how we have eradicated the SmallPox virus and are on the verge of doing so for some others as well.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 12, 2022, 05:02:13 AM
Yeah.... You're wrong Thork.

As the newbie said, by being vaccinated, the virus is attacked immediately inside your body and its killed much faster.  A few days vs 2 weeks.

This means less replications.  Less replications means less varients that can be passed on.  Remember, it doesn't matter if it has a billion varients if those varients never get passed on to another person.

And yes, animals have corona type viruses.  But.. ya know... They don't spread to humans often.  Unless ya eat an infected bat or something.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 12, 2022, 07:56:10 AM
Well I can take your word for it or a doctor's word for it. Imma choose the doctor. But only, and this is very important, only if they’re saying something I want to believe. All the experts who say things I don’t want to believe, they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Cool story bro.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 14, 2022, 09:37:59 AM
Holy shit, Australia, will you make your mind up?!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-59991762
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 14, 2022, 12:45:36 PM
Holy shit, Australia, will you make your mind up?!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-59991762

Well they had made up their mind, but due process being a thing they fucked up meant he couldn’t be kicked out. Then they found out that he was a liar and being a POS so the immigration minister used executive privilege to make it happen. There hasn’t been flip flopping at all, just some administrative incompetence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 14, 2022, 12:50:41 PM
There hasn’t been flip flopping at all, just some administrative incompetence.
This is the entire story of Australia's existence as a nation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 14, 2022, 03:07:16 PM
Then they found out that he was a liar
The Australian government is claiming that Djokovic is a 'danger to the public'. This sounds to me like their government are the liars. How is he a danger? Your citizens can all have the jab. The jab protects you, not others. Djokovic also recently had covid, so his immunity trumps the shit out of the immunity that a vaccinated person who hasn't had covid has.

He's no danger to the public. But their entire reason for deporting him is the 'danger' he poses. That makes Australia the liars.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 14, 2022, 03:40:22 PM
Then they found out that he was a liar
The Australian government is claiming that Djokovic is a 'danger to the public'. This sounds to me like their government are the liars. How is he a danger? Your citizens can all have the jab. The jab protects you, not others. Djokovic also recently had covid, so his immunity trumps the shit out of the immunity that a vaccinated person who hasn't had covid has.

He's no danger to the public. But their entire reason for deporting him is the 'danger' he poses. That makes Australia the liars.

Yea Thork, we know you don’t care about COVID or other people. Australia has different standards than you and they made their decision based on their standards. You can in fact find and read the basis for the decision if you actually care about understanding the situation. I assume you’ll wait until the Wikipedia page is created.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 14, 2022, 03:49:46 PM
I assume you’ll wait until the Wikipedia page is created.
That's a bit unfair. He could just as well get the information from RT or the Express.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Kangaroony on January 16, 2022, 08:20:59 PM
...He's no danger to the public. But their entire reason for deporting him is the 'danger' he poses. That makes Australia the liars.

Not so at all.  Djokovic has now been, rightly, deported.  And despite your claim, as an unvaccinated
individual, he was a danger to others.  If he'd simply had the vaccination, like other foreign players
competing in the Australian Open, then none of this debacle would've occurred.  Likewise, if he hadn't
deliberately lied on his visa application, then it wouldn't have occurred either.  His deportation was solely
Djokevic's own fault, coupled with his stubborn arrogance and disdain for Australian laws.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 16, 2022, 08:39:48 PM
And despite your claim, as an unvaccinated
individual, he was a danger to others.
How was he a danger? He arrived in Australia, Covid free. If he got covid ... (unlikely as he'd just had it), then he's only another person getting a disease that was already present in Australia. And by the way ... covid isn't dangerous. This stupid shit about it being lethal ... its only lethal if a cold is lethal to you. In which case you should be out in public watching the tennis.  ::)

  If he'd simply had the vaccination, like other foreign players
Djokovic hates drugs. Look at the skinny fucker. That's why he hates Nadal so much. He knows Nadal is roided off his tits. Nadal is a filthy drug addict and will literally put just about anything in his veins.
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-72c77e8b6c18251a514c9eb978c75654-lq)   (https://www.opptrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shocking-images-Novak-Djokovic.jpg)

Imagine you are Novak, and this cheat is stealing millions of dollars from you in prize money and eroding your legacy? And Nadal has the audacity to make public statements about how you should just take drugs? No wonder Novak hates him.

Novak is anti drugs. A rare thing in this day and age. He refuses medications he doesn't need. And that includes experimental vaccines. I'm with him on this. Novak is one of the healthiest people on earth. He's literally the best tennis player alive. He knows about health and he doesn't need some fat Aussie politician telling him to pump himself full of Pfizer's untested muck.

competing in the Australian Open, then none of this debacle would've occurred.  Likewise, if he hadn't
deliberately lied on his visa application, then it wouldn't have occurred either.  His deportation was solely
Djokevic's own fault, coupled with his stubborn arrogance and disdain for Australian laws.
He didn't lie. He didn't even fill in his VISA. Obviously. He has people to do it for him and they made a few errors. Nothing that a reasonable no politicised situation couldn't have resolved. But Australia got coronavirus very wrong. Their people have had some of the harshest lockdowns in the world. And their Prime Minister is doubling down to cover his poor management of the situation, rather than come clean that their measures were ineffective and unnecessary. Also ... now that Novak isn't playing and you took out the best player ... who gives a shit about their tournament? I doubt many will watch now.

Contrast the UK. Our PM was having parties during lockdown. The instant it gets made public and he gets caught ... suddenly coronavirus isn't dangerous in the UK and all restrictions are to be lifted.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/16/encouraging-signs-plan-b-covid-measures-may-soon-be-lifted-in-england
Its politics, not science.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 16, 2022, 08:53:37 PM
And by the way ... covid isn't dangerous. This stupid shit about it being lethal ... its only lethal if a cold is lethal to you.
This continues to be a lie.
I never understand why some people seem to think that simply repeating something which isn’t true somehow makes it true.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 16, 2022, 09:22:34 PM
And by the way ... covid isn't dangerous. This stupid shit about it being lethal ... its only lethal if a cold is lethal to you.
This continues to be a lie.
I never understand why some people seem to think that simply repeating something which isn’t true somehow makes it true.
This is how I feel about it. Novak isn't about to die. None of his competitors are about to die of covid either. None of the spectators will die. The only people who would die are house bound or hospitalised and unable to go attending tennis matches with large numbers of people because all kinds of diseases would kill them. Its such a lie that covid is just an indiscriminate lottery that could hit anyone like a bolt of lightning. Like any disease, it only picks off the weakest ... ergo those not out at tennis matches enjoying themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 16, 2022, 09:35:33 PM
Isn't it sort of cut and dry? He was given a vaccine exemption by the Tournament, not by the Government. The Government's rules are obviously above any Tournament. Isn't it that simple?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 16, 2022, 09:40:18 PM
 :-*
And by the way ... covid isn't dangerous. This stupid shit about it being lethal ... its only lethal if a cold is lethal to you.
This continues to be a lie.
I never understand why some people seem to think that simply repeating something which isn’t true somehow makes it true.
This is how I feel about it.


Irrelevant.

Djokovic hates drugs. Look at the skinny fucker. That's why he hates Nadal so much. He knows Nadal is roided off his tits. Nadal is a filthy drug addict and will literally put just about anything in his veins.

Imagine you are Novak, and this cheat is stealing millions of dollars from you in prize money and eroding your legacy? And Nadal has the audacity to make public statements about how you should just take drugs? No wonder Novak hates him.

If you think Novak’s cardio is solely the product of hard work and genetics then you are extremely naive.

Quote
Novak is anti drugs. A rare thing in this day and age.

Yeah just him and Lance Armstrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 16, 2022, 09:43:09 PM
And by the way ... covid isn't dangerous. This stupid shit about it being lethal ... its only lethal if a cold is lethal to you.
This continues to be a lie.
I never understand why some people seem to think that simply repeating something which isn’t true somehow makes it true.
This is how I feel about it. Novak isn't about to die. None of his competitors are about to die of covid either. None of the spectators will die. The only people who would die are house bound or hospitalised and unable to go attending tennis matches with large numbers of people because all kinds of diseases would kill them. Its such a lie that covid is just an indiscriminate lottery that could hit anyone like a bolt of lightning. Like any disease, it only picks off the weakest ... ergo those not out at tennis matches enjoying themselves.
I don’t particularly disagree with any of that. And I think Australia’s rules are bullshit, as is the assertion that Djokovic is a danger to anyone. But come on, dude, this isn’t just a common cold - although Omicron is admittedly much milder than the original (and still the best) Covid, which is part of the reason why we aren’t all in lockdown now like we were this time last year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on January 16, 2022, 09:45:47 PM
although Omicron is admittedly much milder than the original (and still the best) Covid, which is part of the reason why we aren’t all in lockdown now like we were this time last year.
They're loosening up restrictions here too, despite the fact that cases are on the rise, because hospitalisations and deaths are going down. Another nail in the coffin for the "it's about control" conspiracy brigade.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 16, 2022, 09:46:16 PM
The Australian government called him a risk because of the misinformation he was spreading. It was never because of the danger of him spreading COVID.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 17, 2022, 12:01:33 PM
The Australian government called him a risk because of the misinformation he was spreading. It was never because of the danger of him spreading COVID.
You just made that up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 17, 2022, 12:19:55 PM
The Australian government called him a risk because of the misinformation he was spreading. It was never because of the danger of him spreading COVID.
You just made that up.

Just because you make shit up doesn’t mean other people do. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10404927/amp/Key-reasons-Novak-Djokovics-visa-cancelled-Australias-Immigration-Minister-revealed.html)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 17, 2022, 12:30:04 PM
The Australian government called him a risk because of the misinformation he was spreading. It was never because of the danger of him spreading COVID.
You just made that up.

Just because you make shit up doesn’t mean other people do. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10404927/amp/Key-reasons-Novak-Djokovics-visa-cancelled-Australias-Immigration-Minister-revealed.html)

Do you have a better source than The Beano?

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-60014059
Although Djokovic is not vaccinated against Covid-19, he has not actively promoted anti-vax disinformation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 17, 2022, 12:34:03 PM
The Australian government called him a risk because of the misinformation he was spreading. It was never because of the danger of him spreading COVID.
You just made that up.

Just because you make shit up doesn’t mean other people do. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10404927/amp/Key-reasons-Novak-Djokovics-visa-cancelled-Australias-Immigration-Minister-revealed.html)

Do you have a better source than The Beano?

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-60014059
Although Djokovic is not vaccinated against Covid-19, he has not actively promoted anti-vax disinformation.

That doesn’t say anything about the Australian Immigration Minister. Try to follow along.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2022, 06:00:27 PM
UK clinic tells woman not to take any more vaccines, claims that new safety data spells bad news.

https://twitter.com/theysayitsrare/status/1483017272058863617
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 17, 2022, 06:38:32 PM
Oh wow. Someone believes something might be true. Stop the presses!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2022, 07:58:38 PM
UK clinic tells woman not to take any more vaccines, claims that new safety data spells bad news.
Have you alerted Donald Trump so he can stop spreading the dangerous misinformation that the vaccine is safe and effective?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 17, 2022, 08:21:44 PM
I'm guessing now it's official, Operation Warp Speed was the worst thing that could have ever happened to humanity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 17, 2022, 10:00:13 PM
I'm guessing now it's official, Operation Warp Speed was the worst thing that could have ever happened to humanity.

Donald Trump is Hiter.  Or Jar Jar. 
He pushed for the vaccine.  The vaccine that is going to comit genocide. 
Did he do it knowingly or in ignorance that big pharma would make it deadly to everyone?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 23, 2022, 09:43:45 PM
Dr. Fauci says you may need to get a fourth jab soon.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1485291308348579840
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 23, 2022, 09:49:02 PM
Dr. Fauci says you may need to get a fourth jab soon.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1485291308348579840

Yep. So what?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on January 23, 2022, 11:55:09 PM
Dr. Fauci says you may need to get a fourth jab soon.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1485291308348579840

Yep. So what?

Some people are really scared of needles, poor souls.  :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 24, 2022, 02:23:15 AM
Yep. So what?

If you don't have anything to contribute please refrain from posting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 24, 2022, 05:29:04 AM
Yep. So what?

If you don't have anything to contribute please refrain from posting.


Actually you should apply that to your post unless you meant it as simply a PSA, informing us all that another jab may be be necessary. That’s all you wrote, “Dr. Fauci says you may need to get a fourth jab soon.”

Great, thanks for the heads up though we’ve been hearing that for weeks.

But I’m glad to see you’ve turned the corner and are now kindly being informative and promoting the vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on January 24, 2022, 06:16:35 AM
~99% of people aged 12+ in my city Canberra has had 2 doses of the vaccine. Most of us have now had 3 doses. ~50% of kids 5-11 have had it so far and that's continuing to rise. When are we all going to die? We have a grand total of 4 in ICU and 3 of those were not vaccinated. Is this the doom and gloom scenerio antivaxxers were going on about?

~93% of Australians 16+ have had 2 doses

Are the Australian people soon to be wiped out? What do you think Tom? What's in store for Australia?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 24, 2022, 11:17:19 AM
~93% of Australians 16+ have had 2 doses
That data is so bent.

Here is how they get that number.
Quote from: https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/australia/
Australia has administered at least 47,889,638 doses of COVID vaccines so far. Assuming every person needs 2 doses, that’s enough to have vaccinated about 94.4% of the country’s population.
94.4%. Its gone up since your source. Nice.

Lets check somewhere else ... say my home country.

Quote from: https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/united-kingdom/
United Kingdom has administered at least 137,140,907 doses of COVID vaccines so far. Assuming every person needs 2 doses, that’s enough to have vaccinated about 102.6% of the country’s population.
102.6%? It is at this point you know your ~93% means absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on January 24, 2022, 05:26:46 PM
Lots of people have had 3 doses though. And some (immune compromised), 4 doses.

Using number of doses given and assuming only 2 doses is a silly way to gauge how many people got the vaccine

Better way is to use records. Everyone getting the vaccine has a Medicare card number and vaccines are recorded in there. So you can easily tell who has and who hasn't had a vaccine. Who has gone as far as a 3rd dose and who has only had 1

Using the total amount of doses given and comparing it to your population number is dumb
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 24, 2022, 07:11:20 PM
~93% of Australians 16+ have had 2 doses
That data is so bent.

Here is how they get that number.
Quote from: https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/australia/
Australia has administered at least 47,889,638 doses of COVID vaccines so far. Assuming every person needs 2 doses, that’s enough to have vaccinated about 94.4% of the country’s population.
94.4%. Its gone up since your source. Nice.

Lets check somewhere else ... say my home country.

Quote from: https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/united-kingdom/
United Kingdom has administered at least 137,140,907 doses of COVID vaccines so far. Assuming every person needs 2 doses, that’s enough to have vaccinated about 102.6% of the country’s population.
102.6%? It is at this point you know your ~93% means absolutely nothing.

You realize those are just the total number of doses administered. You then have to break that total number down by 1st, 2nd, & 3rd doses administered:

UK Vaccinations (https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/easy_read)

(https://i.imgur.com/O0CIkzR.png)

Vaccines are currently given in 3 doses.

- 52,236,574 people had been given a first dose by the end of 23 January 2022.

- 48,195,145 people had been given a second dose by the end of 23 January 2022.

- 36,941,059 people had been given a booster or third dose by the end of 23 January 2022.


Total does administered: 137,372,278

Hey, look at that! it's basically the same number you posted. Go figure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on January 24, 2022, 07:50:05 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2022, 08:40:59 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 24, 2022, 10:04:52 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
??? You need to learn how to read. I posted showing that was the way the 93% was arrived at. I was complaining that it's a dumb way to do it. Don't make out that's the way I endorse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 24, 2022, 10:31:03 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
??? You need to learn how to read. I posted showing that was the way the 93% was arrived at. I was complaining that it's a dumb way to do it. Don't make out that's the way I endorse.

So you're complaining about how Reuters came up with their percent?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 24, 2022, 10:38:20 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
??? You need to learn how to read. I posted showing that was the way the 93% was arrived at. I was complaining that it's a dumb way to do it. Don't make out that's the way I endorse.

So you're complaining about how Reuters came up with their percent?
I was complaining about Shifter's claim that 93% of Australians were vaccinated. That isn't true and I showed how they get that number. Once you see how they get it, you know it's a false claim.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2022, 11:00:44 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
??? You need to learn how to read. I posted showing that was the way the 93% was arrived at. I was complaining that it's a dumb way to do it. Don't make out that's the way I endorse.

So you're complaining about how Reuters came up with their percent?
I was complaining about Shifter's claim that 93% of Australians were vaccinated. That isn't true and I showed how they get that number. Once you see how they get it, you know it's a false claim.

He didn’t cite Reuters so what in the actual fuck are you talking about? You debunked something he didn’t claim. Classic Thork.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 24, 2022, 11:41:31 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
??? You need to learn how to read. I posted showing that was the way the 93% was arrived at. I was complaining that it's a dumb way to do it. Don't make out that's the way I endorse.

So you're complaining about how Reuters came up with their percent?
I was complaining about Shifter's claim that 93% of Australians were vaccinated. That isn't true and I showed how they get that number. Once you see how they get it, you know it's a false claim.

He didn’t cite Reuters so what in the actual fuck are you talking about? You debunked something he didn’t claim. Classic Thork.
He claimed 93% vaccination rate in Australia. That is false. I showed how they got that number. Once you see how they calculate it, you know its wrong. So the 93% is debunked. Job done. Keep up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2022, 11:52:21 PM
Also, using proper records we can tell how many within 'x' age group are vaccinated. Or how many people with disabilities are vaccinated. Or aboriginal people etc

No one uses the total doses administered and then 'divides by 2' lol.

Well. One person does.
??? You need to learn how to read. I posted showing that was the way the 93% was arrived at. I was complaining that it's a dumb way to do it. Don't make out that's the way I endorse.

So you're complaining about how Reuters came up with their percent?
I was complaining about Shifter's claim that 93% of Australians were vaccinated. That isn't true and I showed how they get that number. Once you see how they get it, you know it's a false claim.

He didn’t cite Reuters so what in the actual fuck are you talking about? You debunked something he didn’t claim. Classic Thork.
He claimed 93% vaccination rate in Australia. That is false. I showed how they got that number. Once you see how they calculate it, you know its wrong. So the 93% is debunked. Job done. Keep up.

Thork this just be so embarrassing. First off you showed how Reuters got the number 94.4%, which isn’t what Shifter claimed. Second, Ahifter did not claim all of Australia had a rate of 93% vaccinated, did he?  Don’t read more, go see what he actually wrote, I’ll wait….




Back? Feel dumb?  You should.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 25, 2022, 12:03:10 AM
Thork this just be so embarrassing.
Then stop embarrassing yourself. And stop speaking like a Jamaican.

First off you showed how Reuters got the number 94.4%, which isn’t what Shifter claimed.
Fun fact, the number changes because they continue to vaccinate people. You knew that right? You aren't that stupid.

Second, Ahifter did not claim all of Australia had a rate of 93% vaccinated, did he?  Don’t read more, go see what he actually wrote, I’ll wait….

~93% of Australians 16+ have had 2 doses
::)

Back? Feel dumb?  You should.
I feel like we are at the point where you have fuck all to say as usual and so you are resorting to pedantry. That's how I feel.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 25, 2022, 12:20:15 AM
There is a massive difference between Australians 16+ and all Australians, isn’t there?  You will feel soooooo much better if you just admit you are wrong. You will also learn more which makes you less likely to come off as an ignoramus in the future.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr David Thork on January 25, 2022, 12:29:28 AM
There is a massive difference between Australians 16+ and all Australians, isn’t there?  You will feel soooooo much better if you just admit you are wrong. You will also learn more which makes you less likely to come off as an ignoramus in the future.
You haven't offered anything. How did they get 93%? you are saying I'm wrong, but not saying why. Stop be so intellectually dishonest and offer something.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 25, 2022, 12:48:51 AM
There is a massive difference between Australians 16+ and all Australians, isn’t there?  You will feel soooooo much better if you just admit you are wrong. You will also learn more which makes you less likely to come off as an ignoramus in the future.
You haven't offered anything. How did they get 93%? you are saying I'm wrong, but not saying why.

I’ve shown you multiple reasons why your criticism was garbage. It’s not my job to spoon feed you. I’ve already looked at multiple sources and Shifters factoid seems reasonable, but I’ve no idea where he got it.

Quote
Stop be so intellectually dishonest and offer something.

Jamaican is better than Neanderthal.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 25, 2022, 12:52:42 AM
Alright. I’ve finally found exactly where Shifter’s stat came from.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/covid-19-vaccination-vaccination-data-24-january-2022

92.9% of Australians 16+ have gotten 2+ doses of vaccine. Thork is shit. Another victory for TFES!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on January 25, 2022, 05:16:15 AM
Alright. I’ve finally found exactly where Shifter’s stat came from.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/covid-19-vaccination-vaccination-data-24-january-2022

92.9% of Australians 16+ have gotten 2+ doses of vaccine. Thork is shit. Another victory for TFES!

Yep. And if you have a look, they have been able to break down the numbers by age, gender, disabled, aged care residents, indigenous people etc

So the report isn't numbers plucked out of the air or lazy 'divide total doses by 2' nonsense lol
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 25, 2022, 05:17:33 AM
Alright. I’ve finally found exactly where Shifter’s stat came from.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/covid-19-vaccination-vaccination-data-24-january-2022

92.9% of Australians 16+ have gotten 2+ doses of vaccine. Thork is shit. Another victory for TFES!

Yep. And if you have a look, they have been able to break down the numbers by age, gender, disabled, aged care residents, indigenous people etc

So the report isn't numbers plucked out of the air or lazy 'divide total doses by 2' nonsense lol

You will have to forgive Thork.  Finding a reuters article and dividing by 2 is peak research for him.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2022, 08:44:04 AM
Man, having this covid headcold is way better than the horrible shit I'd feel with full blown unvaxxed covid.


Also:
Masks help!  Because you are contageous days before you show any symptoms.  Proven fact.   Also self tests don't work if you have no symotoms.  FYI.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 29, 2022, 09:30:18 AM
Also self tests don't work if you have no symotoms.  FYI.
This technically does depend on the test you're using, but it's always incorrect when it comes to modern covid tests. Most self-tests are antigen tests, which do not have anything directly to do with symptoms. Their main flaw is that they're only reliable under high viral load.

https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/pcr-antigen-and-antibody-five-things-know-about-coronavirus-tests
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 02, 2022, 05:09:24 PM
Is this what you vaccine and mandate proponents support?

Politico - Hospitals refused to treat toddler because his parents were unvaccinated (https://www.politico.eu/article/hospitals-refused-to-treat-toddler-as-his-parents-were-unvaccinated/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 02, 2022, 05:16:13 PM
Is this what you vaccine and mandate proponents support?


It is important to note that the choice not to operate on the child in Germany was the hospital's choice, not anything to do with a government mandate, so obviously this is just a cheap ploy by you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 02, 2022, 05:42:42 PM
Is this what you vaccine and mandate proponents support?


It is important to note that the choice not to operate on the child in Germany was the hospital's choice, not anything to do with a government mandate, so obviously this is just a cheap ploy by you.
Plus it wasn't even to not operate on the child but that the parents, who would have to bring said child, weren't allowed.

Also, kinda funny, Tom hating on Germany for not letting a Greek citizen use German resources.  You know... Immigrants....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 02, 2022, 05:52:44 PM
Is this what you vaccine and mandate proponents support?


It is important to note that the choice not to operate on the child in Germany was the hospital's choice, not anything to do with a government mandate, so obviously this is just a cheap ploy by you.
Plus it wasn't even to not operate on the child but that the parents, who would have to bring said child, weren't allowed.

Also, kinda funny, Tom hating on Germany for not letting a Greek citizen use German resources.  You know... Immigrants....

An alternate vaccinated guardian was refused, which seems off.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 02, 2022, 06:04:08 PM
Is this what you vaccine and mandate proponents support?


It is important to note that the choice not to operate on the child in Germany was the hospital's choice, not anything to do with a government mandate, so obviously this is just a cheap ploy by you.
Plus it wasn't even to not operate on the child but that the parents, who would have to bring said child, weren't allowed.

Also, kinda funny, Tom hating on Germany for not letting a Greek citizen use German resources.  You know... Immigrants....

An alternate vaccinated guardian was refused, which seems off.

It does but could be some weird legal rules since a) they were foreign nations and b) there was a chance said child would die. (Its heart surgery...)

Also, having read the article, the parents were informed with plenty of time but chose not to.  Apparently if you are not sick, you shouldn't get a vaccine.  Which is.... Really fucking stupid. 
Might as well make sure to only wear a seatbelt when you're in a car crash.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 07, 2022, 07:51:09 PM
Really fucking stupid. 

(https://i.imgur.com/CLpJSR0.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 07, 2022, 08:04:24 PM
Really fucking stupid. 

(https://i.imgur.com/CLpJSR0.jpg)

Apparently, Kylie and Cass lived to tell their tale. And Cass had a great suggestion to go to a kids clinic to lower any needle anxiety. Seems like all is good. Thanks for sharing another vax success story.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 07, 2022, 09:36:23 PM
In other news, most don’t talk about nothing happening after their vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 07, 2022, 10:44:40 PM
Around the world we must be getting on for at least a billion people who have had the vaccine.
In a set of people that large you’re going to get some people who had reactions. Pretty easy to cherry pick from those people if you have a certain agenda.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 07, 2022, 10:57:07 PM
Around the world we must be getting on for at least a billion people who have had the vaccine.
In a set of people that large you’re going to get some people who had reactions. Pretty easy to cherry pick from those people if you have a certain agenda.

It’s closer to 4 billion people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2022, 02:23:17 AM
Around the world we must be getting on for at least a billion people who have had the vaccine.
In a set of people that large you’re going to get some people who had reactions. Pretty easy to cherry pick from those people if you have a certain agenda.

This comment would be less imbecilic if there were not an abnormally large number of reactions in the US Government's only reporting mechanism for adverse vaccine effects in the public - https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Attempting to discredit or discount this means that you have no government reporting mechanism on the public's reaction to the vaccine, and no actual positive data of the vaccine's effects on the US public to point to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 08, 2022, 02:52:43 AM
Around the world we must be getting on for at least a billion people who have had the vaccine.
In a set of people that large you’re going to get some people who had reactions. Pretty easy to cherry pick from those people if you have a certain agenda.

This comment would be less imbecilic if there were not an abnormally large number of reactions in the US Government's only reporting mechanism for adverse vaccine effects in the public - https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Attempting to discredit or discount this means that you have no government reporting mechanism on the public's reaction to the vaccine, and no actual positive data of the vaccine's effects on the US public to point to.

Incredibly, even if you take VAERS as an accurate statistical report of side effects (it isn’t), the vaccines dearth rate is much lower than the actual virus. The death rate of 23,000 deaths in 1,000,000 reports give a .02% mortality. It’s going to be much close to 23,000 deaths in 500,000,000 doses though, since doctors are required to report all adverse events and practically every vaccine death would involve a doctor. It seems like when you look at VAERS that it actually supports that the vaccine isn’t dangerous statistically speaking.

EDIT: Also an obligatory mention that a death reported on VAERS is not confirmed by anyone, so differentiating a death with vaccine to a death from vaccine doesn’t happen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2022, 03:06:09 AM
Around the world we must be getting on for at least a billion people who have had the vaccine.
In a set of people that large you’re going to get some people who had reactions. Pretty easy to cherry pick from those people if you have a certain agenda.

This comment would be less imbecilic if there were not an abnormally large number of reactions in the US Government's only reporting mechanism for adverse vaccine effects in the public - https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Attempting to discredit or discount this means that you have no government reporting mechanism on the public's reaction to the vaccine, and no actual positive data of the vaccine's effects on the US public to point to.

Incredibly, even if you take VAERS as an accurate statistical report of side effects (it isn’t), the vaccines dearth rate is much lower than the actual virus. The death rate of 23,000 deaths in 1,000,000 reports give a .02% mortality. It’s going to be much close to 23,000 deaths in 500,000,000 doses though, since doctors are required to report all adverse events and practically every vaccine death would involve a doctor. It seems like when you look at VAERS that it actually supports that the vaccine isn’t dangerous statistically speaking.

The data shows that adverse effects reported is very abnormal as compared to previous years and previous vaccines.

There are also several studies showing that VAERS is underreported.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355581860_COVID_vaccination_and_age-stratified_all-cause_mortality_risk

"Notably, adult vaccination increased ulterior mortality of unvaccinated young (<18, US; <15, Europe). Comparing our estimate with the CDC-reported VFR (0.002%) suggests VAERS deaths are underreported by a factor of 20, consistent with known VAERS under-ascertainment bias. Comparing our age-stratified VFRs with published age-stratified coronavirus infection fatality rates (IFR) suggests the risks of COVID vaccines and boosters outweigh the benefits in children, young adults and older adults with low occupational risk or previous coronavirus exposure."

https://digital.ahrq.gov/ahrq-funded-projects/electronic-support-public-health-vaccine-adverse-event-reporting-system

"Adverse events from vaccines are common but underreported, with less than one percent reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."

https://digital.ahrq.gov/sites/default/files/docs/publication/r18hs017045-lazarus-final-report-2011.pdf

"Adverse events from drugs and vaccines are common, but underreported. Although 25% of
ambulatory patients experience an adverse drug event, less than 0.3% of all adverse drug events
and 1-13% of serious events are reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
Likewise, fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 08, 2022, 03:20:07 AM
So a study that is in preprint and two reports using data over a decade old? None of which says that the COVID vaccine is dangerous. Please tell me why I should find this compelling?

Have you looked at any studies in a controlled setting regarding vaccine safety? We all know that you consider science to be garbage unless it is in a controlled setting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2022, 04:50:05 PM
So a study that is in preprint and two reports using data over a decade old? None of which says that the COVID vaccine is dangerous. Please tell me why I should find this compelling?

A decade ago was only 2012. Are you claiming that this was an era of stone age methodology? Do you honestly think the 2021 preprint is liable to change considering that previous studies have also concluded severe under reporting?

We know that VAERS reports that there have been significantly more vaccine adverse effects compared to vaccines of previous years.

(https://i.imgur.com/YNjw7Q8.png)

We also know that VAERS is a system which is being significantly under reported to.

Otherwise we have no data on the US public's adverse reactions to the vaccine.

It is pretty disingenuous to argue that we should trash the data because it "could" be incorrect and instead rely on zero data.

Quote
Have you looked at any studies in a controlled setting regarding vaccine safety? We all know that you consider science to be garbage unless it is in a controlled setting.

Yes, I looked into it. The FDA has been arguing that they need 75 years to give it to us. Luckily a Republican judge from Texas has ruled otherwise.

Article from Jan 7 2022 -

https://denvergazette.com/news/judge-scraps-75-year-fda-timeline-to-release-pfizer-vaccine-safety-data-giving-agency-eight/article_f007b8b4-ad66-59b4-a270-4709bc3e4814.html

(https://i.imgur.com/8bw6u3q.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/affWOUr.png)

Have you ever considered that you are on the evil side of this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 08, 2022, 07:37:41 PM
So a study that is in preprint and two reports using data over a decade old? None of which says that the COVID vaccine is dangerous. Please tell me why I should find this compelling?

A decade ago was only 2012. Are you claiming that this was an era of stone age methodology?

Are you just going to ask disingenuous and idiotic questions?

Quote
Do you honestly think the 2021 preprint is liable to change considering that previous studies have also concluded severe under reporting?

So you think we should just assume it is right?

Quote
Otherwise we have no data on the US public's adverse reactions to the vaccine.

It is pretty disingenuous to argue that we should trash the data because it "could" be incorrect and instead rely on zero data.

No disingenuous would be assuming that I said anywhere that we should trash the data.  That would be disingenuous.

Quote
Have you looked at any studies in a controlled setting regarding vaccine safety? We all know that you consider science to be garbage unless it is in a controlled setting.

Yes, I looked into it. The FDA has been arguing that they need 75 years to give it to us. Luckily a Republican judge from Texas has ruled otherwise.[/quote]

I guess you did a half assed job then if you only looked at the US.  Considering that most of the doses of mRNA vaccine have been delivered outside the US, you might consider going further afield.

Quote
Have you ever considered that you are on the evil side of this?

That's what you conclude with?  Obvious troll is obivous.  I expect more, Bom.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 20, 2022, 09:17:43 PM
This seems rather curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZDsRuUrMFk

If the vaccine is what it is and safe, why wouldn't Pfizer just say, "Sure, we're right on board with you!"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 20, 2022, 11:05:20 PM
This seems rather curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZDsRuUrMFk

If the vaccine is what it is and safe, why wouldn't Pfizer just say, "Sure, we're right on board with you!"

Not really.
https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-govt-wont-buy-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-amid-local-output-sources-2021-09-21/

1. Old news.
2. They have a locally produced vaccine: Johnson and Johnson.  Which they need since alot of India lacks the storage facilities needed for the vaccine so having it made in country helps.
3. They don't wanna give immunity to lawsuits for side effects.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 20, 2022, 11:06:51 PM
If the vaccine is what it is and safe, why wouldn't Pfizer just say, "Sure, we're right on board with you!"

I'm guessing $$$, cost.

In any case, it's not like India doesn't have vaccines:

"Pfizer had sought authorisation for its vaccine in India late last year, but the government in January approved two much cheaper shots - one from Oxford University/AstraZeneca (AZN.L) and another developed in India by Bharat Biotech with the Indian Council of Medical Research."

So I'm not sure what the big deal is. Something like 1.8 vaccine doses have been administered in India. Vaccines are obviously still very much in play.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 21, 2022, 12:28:46 PM
This seems rather curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZDsRuUrMFk

If the vaccine is what it is and safe, why wouldn't Pfizer just say, "Sure, we're right on board with you!"

Not really.
https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-govt-wont-buy-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-amid-local-output-sources-2021-09-21/

1. Old news.
2. They have a locally produced vaccine: Johnson and Johnson.  Which they need since alot of India lacks the storage facilities needed for the vaccine so having it made in country helps.
3. They don't wanna give immunity to lawsuits for side effects.
It is wrong for a government to demand trials of a drug and okay for a company to demand the same government protect them liability in case of damages.
FTFY, I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 21, 2022, 12:31:46 PM
If the vaccine is what it is and safe, why wouldn't Pfizer just say, "Sure, we're right on board with you!"

I'm guessing $$$, cost.

In any case, it's not like India doesn't have vaccines:

"Pfizer had sought authorisation for its vaccine in India late last year, but the government in January approved two much cheaper shots - one from Oxford University/AstraZeneca (AZN.L) and another developed in India by Bharat Biotech with the Indian Council of Medical Research."

So I'm not sure what the big deal is. Something like 1.8 vaccine doses have been administered in India. Vaccines are obviously still very much in play.
The big deal is the matter of a company having government provided immunity from liability from any adverse affects of the vaccine.

That seems like a rather large deal to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 21, 2022, 02:49:44 PM
This seems rather curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZDsRuUrMFk

If the vaccine is what it is and safe, why wouldn't Pfizer just say, "Sure, we're right on board with you!"

Not really.
https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-govt-wont-buy-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-amid-local-output-sources-2021-09-21/

1. Old news.
2. They have a locally produced vaccine: Johnson and Johnson.  Which they need since alot of India lacks the storage facilities needed for the vaccine so having it made in country helps.
3. They don't wanna give immunity to lawsuits for side effects.
It is wrong for a government to demand trials of a drug and okay for a company to demand the same government protect them liability in case of damages.
FTFY, I guess.

Still not sure what you're getting at.
The immunity bit is pretty standard.  Its so they don't have that .02% who have bad reactions sue them for alot of money.  You act like this is somehow new.

Go check other vaccines.
Honestly, it was probabky just redtape so they could justify keeping the locally produced vaccine instead of importing one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 21, 2022, 03:23:22 PM
Still not sure what you're getting at.
The immunity bit is pretty standard.  Its so they don't have that .02% who have bad reactions sue them for alot of money.  You act like this is somehow new.
The immunity bit is not necessarily standard, and the reaction from the Indian Government is, "We're not going to play that stupid bullshit here! Either you acknowledge the need for further clinical trials or get the fuck out with this bullshit your peddling."

You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
Go check other vaccines.
Why? Who cares?
Honestly, it was probabky just redtape so they could justify keeping the locally produced vaccine instead of importing one.
Honestly, you continue to roll out a litany of ridiculous revised explanations for what took place here.

The Indian Government told Pfizer to take their inadequately tested vaccine and shove it up their ass and for good reason.

It seems the Indian government has some sense.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 21, 2022, 06:21:31 PM
Still not sure what you're getting at.
The immunity bit is pretty standard.  Its so they don't have that .02% who have bad reactions sue them for alot of money.  You act like this is somehow new.
The immunity bit is not necessarily standard, and the reaction from the Indian Government is, "We're not going to play that stupid bullshit here! Either you acknowledge the need for further clinical trials or get the fuck out with this bullshit your peddling."
Then why are they using the Johnson and Johnson vaccine?  Same trial time.

Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.

Quote
Go check other vaccines.
Why? Who cares?
Honestly, it was probabky just redtape so they could justify keeping the locally produced vaccine instead of importing one.
Honestly, you continue to roll out a litany of ridiculous revised explanations for what took place here.

The Indian Government told Pfizer to take their inadequately tested vaccine and shove it up their ass and for good reason.

It seems the Indian government has some sense.
Yet again, use the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.
I mean, if you think that one is superior and the Pfizer is bad, thats another debate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 22, 2022, 11:26:28 AM
Still not sure what you're getting at.
The immunity bit is pretty standard.  Its so they don't have that .02% who have bad reactions sue them for alot of money.  You act like this is somehow new.
The immunity bit is not necessarily standard, and the reaction from the Indian Government is, "We're not going to play that stupid bullshit here! Either you acknowledge the need for further clinical trials or get the fuck out with this bullshit your peddling."
Then why are they using the Johnson and Johnson vaccine?  Same trial time.
You provided the answer yourself. Evidently locally produced and the trials took place in the Indian population.
Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.
That is some serious math you got going on there!

The .06% number stands alone and there is no reduction in that number just because Sally down the street had some of the same serious side effects by drinking plain old water.
Quote
Go check other vaccines.
Why? Who cares?
Honestly, it was probabky just redtape so they could justify keeping the locally produced vaccine instead of importing one.
Honestly, you continue to roll out a litany of ridiculous revised explanations for what took place here.

The Indian Government told Pfizer to take their inadequately tested vaccine and shove it up their ass and for good reason.

It seems the Indian government has some sense.
Yet again, use the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.
I mean, if you think that one is superior and the Pfizer is bad, thats another debate.
I am simply pointing out that Pfizer refuses refuses to perform what would be standard day-to-day medical business practices for a company seeking a potential market.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 22, 2022, 12:17:14 PM
Still not sure what you're getting at.
The immunity bit is pretty standard.  Its so they don't have that .02% who have bad reactions sue them for alot of money.  You act like this is somehow new.
The immunity bit is not necessarily standard, and the reaction from the Indian Government is, "We're not going to play that stupid bullshit here! Either you acknowledge the need for further clinical trials or get the fuck out with this bullshit your peddling."
Then why are they using the Johnson and Johnson vaccine?  Same trial time.
You provided the answer yourself. Evidently locally produced and the trials took place in the Indian population.
Glad we agree then.

Quote
Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.
That is some serious math you got going on there!

The .06% number stands alone and there is no reduction in that number just because Sally down the street had some of the same serious side effects by drinking plain old water.
Kinda does, yeah.  Means the side effects may not be related to the vaccine.  The goal is to determine what happens with and without the vaccine.  If people have the same issue regardless, you can't attribute it to the vaccine itself.  Same with any medicine or any study with a control group.
If 100 people drink the new pepsi, another 100 drink only water, and 10 from each group puke... New pepsi probably didn't make them puke.  Unless the control group was just a coincidence.


Quote
Quote
Go check other vaccines.
Why? Who cares?
Honestly, it was probabky just redtape so they could justify keeping the locally produced vaccine instead of importing one.
Honestly, you continue to roll out a litany of ridiculous revised explanations for what took place here.

The Indian Government told Pfizer to take their inadequately tested vaccine and shove it up their ass and for good reason.

It seems the Indian government has some sense.
Yet again, use the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.
I mean, if you think that one is superior and the Pfizer is bad, thats another debate.
I am simply pointing out that Pfizer refuses refuses to perform what would be standard day-to-day medical business practices for a company seeking a potential market.
Know wnat?
Sure.
Lets agree on that then.
Glad you approve of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine at least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 22, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
Quote
Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.
That is some serious math you got going on there!

The .06% number stands alone and there is no reduction in that number just because Sally down the street had some of the same serious side effects by drinking plain old water.
Kinda does, yeah.  Means the side effects may not be related to the vaccine.  The goal is to determine what happens with and without the vaccine.  If people have the same issue regardless, you can't attribute it to the vaccine itself.  Same with any medicine or any study with a control group.
If 100 people drink the new pepsi, another 100 drink only water, and 10 from each group puke... New pepsi probably didn't make them puke.  Unless the control group was just a coincidence.
No, absolutely not. Incorrect.

Know wnat?
Sure.
Lets agree on that then.
Glad you approve of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine at least.
I approve of valid clinical trials and full transparency.

You, it seems at least, (based on your posts), approve of underhanded shady dealings by pharmaceutical companies and world governments.

Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 22, 2022, 01:54:33 PM
Quote
Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.
That is some serious math you got going on there!

The .06% number stands alone and there is no reduction in that number just because Sally down the street had some of the same serious side effects by drinking plain old water.
Kinda does, yeah.  Means the side effects may not be related to the vaccine.  The goal is to determine what happens with and without the vaccine.  If people have the same issue regardless, you can't attribute it to the vaccine itself.  Same with any medicine or any study with a control group.
If 100 people drink the new pepsi, another 100 drink only water, and 10 from each group puke... New pepsi probably didn't make them puke.  Unless the control group was just a coincidence.
No, absolutely not. Incorrect.
Why?
If two groups have the same side effects from two different substances (one being water, one being medicine) why is it that the medicine side effects were caused by the medicine?  And what caused the ones who took water to have the side effect?


Quote
Know wnat?
Sure.
Lets agree on that then.
Glad you approve of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine at least.
I approve of valid clinical trials and full transparency.

You, it seems at least, (based on your posts), approve of underhanded shady dealings by pharmaceutical companies and world governments.

Unbelievable.
Well... Yeah.  I support capitalism, not government regulations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 22, 2022, 03:41:50 PM
Quote
Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.
That is some serious math you got going on there!

The .06% number stands alone and there is no reduction in that number just because Sally down the street had some of the same serious side effects by drinking plain old water.
Kinda does, yeah.  Means the side effects may not be related to the vaccine.  The goal is to determine what happens with and without the vaccine.  If people have the same issue regardless, you can't attribute it to the vaccine itself.  Same with any medicine or any study with a control group.
If 100 people drink the new pepsi, another 100 drink only water, and 10 from each group puke... New pepsi probably didn't make them puke.  Unless the control group was just a coincidence.
No, absolutely not. Incorrect.
Why?
If two groups have the same side effects from two different substances (one being water, one being medicine) why is it that the medicine side effects were caused by the medicine?  And what caused the ones who took water to have the side effect?
POINT ONE - Please link a paper written by an INDEPENDENT source that provides a .06 percent number for adverse reactions to the Pfizer vaccine.

Betcha can't do that.


Quote
Know wnat?
Sure.
Lets agree on that then.
Glad you approve of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine at least.
I approve of valid clinical trials and full transparency.

You, it seems at least, (based on your posts), approve of underhanded shady dealings by pharmaceutical companies and world governments.

Unbelievable.

Well... Yeah.  I support capitalism, not government regulations.
LOL!


We have discussed economic systems before and the odds of you having any sort of idea or concept of capitalism is beyond the pale. You got no clue at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 22, 2022, 04:21:19 PM
Quote
Quote
You act like the .02% is a legitimate number.
I mean, I was making it high.  Let me grab the real number...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events

.06% had serious side effects in the vaccine group.  .05% in the placebo group.
Meaning its .01% of people likely had vaccine related issues that were serious.
That is some serious math you got going on there!

The .06% number stands alone and there is no reduction in that number just because Sally down the street had some of the same serious side effects by drinking plain old water.
Kinda does, yeah.  Means the side effects may not be related to the vaccine.  The goal is to determine what happens with and without the vaccine.  If people have the same issue regardless, you can't attribute it to the vaccine itself.  Same with any medicine or any study with a control group.
If 100 people drink the new pepsi, another 100 drink only water, and 10 from each group puke... New pepsi probably didn't make them puke.  Unless the control group was just a coincidence.
No, absolutely not. Incorrect.
Why?
If two groups have the same side effects from two different substances (one being water, one being medicine) why is it that the medicine side effects were caused by the medicine?  And what caused the ones who took water to have the side effect?
POINT ONE - Please link a paper written by an INDEPENDENT source that provides a .06 percent number for adverse reactions to the Pfizer vaccine.

Betcha can't do that.
Please define indepentant.  Because i'd like to not waste my time when you move goalposts.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Know wnat?
Sure.
Lets agree on that then.
Glad you approve of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine at least.
I approve of valid clinical trials and full transparency.

You, it seems at least, (based on your posts), approve of underhanded shady dealings by pharmaceutical companies and world governments.

Unbelievable.
Well... Yeah.  I support capitalism, not government regulations.
LOL!


We have discussed economic systems before and the odds of you having any sort of idea or concept of capitalism is beyond the pale. You got no clue at all.


Not a hard concept.  Individuals sell products for their own personal profit.
Capitalism, in its pure form, has no rules.  No ethics.  Just profit.  Sell your product, get your profit.  Who cares if they aren't happy so long as you are.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 23, 2022, 04:00:51 PM
Please define indepentant.  Because i'd like to not waste my time when you move goalposts.
A paper written by a firm not hired by Pfizer to conduct a research trial. At least one of the firms employed by Pfizer released bullshit data.
Not a hard concept.  Individuals sell products for their own personal profit.
Capitalism, in its pure form, has no rules.  No ethics.  Just profit.  Sell your product, get your profit.  Who cares if they aren't happy so long as you are.
Oh, I see.

And you believe Pfizer is currently conducting business in a pure, capitalistic economic sense?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 23, 2022, 06:58:21 PM
Please define indepentant.  Because i'd like to not waste my time when you move goalposts.
A paper written by a firm not hired by Pfizer to conduct a research trial. At least one of the firms employed by Pfizer released bullshit data.


Analysis of COVID-19 Vaccine Type and Adverse Effects Following Vaccination (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2787361)

Key Points
Question  What factors are associated with adverse effects after COVID-19 vaccination?

Findings  In an online cohort study including 19 586 adults who received a COVID-19 vaccination, the factors most strongly associated with adverse effects were full vaccination dose, brand of vaccine, younger age, female sex, and having had COVID-19 before vaccination. Allergic reaction or anaphylaxis was reported in 0.3% of participants after partial vaccination and 0.2% of participants after full vaccination.

Meaning  These findings suggest that some individuals experience more adverse effects after COVID-19 vaccination, but serious adverse effects are rare.

Results  The 19 586 participants had a median (IQR) age of 54 (38-66) years, and 13 420 (68.8%) were women. Allergic reaction or anaphylaxis was reported in 26 of 8680 participants (0.3%) after 1 dose of the BNT162b2 (Pfizer/BioNTech) or mRNA-1273 (Moderna) vaccine, 27 of 11 141 (0.2%) after 2 doses of the BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccine or 1 dose of the JNJ-78436735 (Johnson & Johnson) vaccine. The strongest factors associated with adverse effects were vaccine dose (2 doses of BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 or 1 dose of JNJ-78436735 vs 1 dose of BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273; odds ratio [OR], 3.10; 95% CI, 2.89-3.34; P < .001), vaccine brand (mRNA-1273 vs BNT162b2, OR, 2.00; 95% CI, 1.86-2.15; P < .001; JNJ-78436735 vs BNT162b2: OR, 0.64; 95% CI, 0.52-0.79; P < .001), age (per 10 years: OR, 0.74; 95% CI, 0.72-0.76; P < .001), female sex (OR, 1.65; 95% CI, 1.53-1.78; P < .001), and having had COVID-19 before vaccination (OR, 2.17; 95% CI, 1.77-2.66; P < .001).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 24, 2022, 05:34:11 AM
Please define indepentant.  Because i'd like to not waste my time when you move goalposts.
A paper written by a firm not hired by Pfizer to conduct a research trial. At least one of the firms employed by Pfizer released bullshit data.


Analysis of COVID-19 Vaccine Type and Adverse Effects Following Vaccination (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2787361)

Key Points
Question  What factors are associated with adverse effects after COVID-19 vaccination?

Findings  In an online cohort study including 19 586 adults who received a COVID-19 vaccination, the factors most strongly associated with adverse effects were full vaccination dose, brand of vaccine, younger age, female sex, and having had COVID-19 before vaccination. Allergic reaction or anaphylaxis was reported in 0.3% of participants after partial vaccination and 0.2% of participants after full vaccination.

Meaning  These findings suggest that some individuals experience more adverse effects after COVID-19 vaccination, but serious adverse effects are rare.

Results  The 19 586 participants had a median (IQR) age of 54 (38-66) years, and 13 420 (68.8%) were women. Allergic reaction or anaphylaxis was reported in 26 of 8680 participants (0.3%) after 1 dose of the BNT162b2 (Pfizer/BioNTech) or mRNA-1273 (Moderna) vaccine, 27 of 11 141 (0.2%) after 2 doses of the BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccine or 1 dose of the JNJ-78436735 (Johnson & Johnson) vaccine. The strongest factors associated with adverse effects were vaccine dose (2 doses of BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 or 1 dose of JNJ-78436735 vs 1 dose of BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273; odds ratio [OR], 3.10; 95% CI, 2.89-3.34; P < .001), vaccine brand (mRNA-1273 vs BNT162b2, OR, 2.00; 95% CI, 1.86-2.15; P < .001; JNJ-78436735 vs BNT162b2: OR, 0.64; 95% CI, 0.52-0.79; P < .001), age (per 10 years: OR, 0.74; 95% CI, 0.72-0.76; P < .001), female sex (OR, 1.65; 95% CI, 1.53-1.78; P < .001), and having had COVID-19 before vaccination (OR, 2.17; 95% CI, 1.77-2.66; P < .001).


Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 24, 2022, 04:37:24 PM
Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Stack didn't help you at all.

I am sure Pfizer is acting according to capitalism as you understand it, which actually speaks volumes about your understanding rather than capitalism.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 24, 2022, 05:57:33 PM
Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Stack didn't help you at all.

I am sure Pfizer is acting according to capitalism as you understand it, which actually speaks volumes about your understanding rather than capitalism.

You asked for a non-Pfizer independent source. You got one. Why not address what you asked for rather than deflecting toward whatever your notion of "capitalism" is?

Is it that you simply have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 25, 2022, 11:19:06 AM
Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Stack didn't help you at all.

I am sure Pfizer is acting according to capitalism as you understand it, which actually speaks volumes about your understanding rather than capitalism.

You asked for a non-Pfizer independent source. You got one. Why not address what you asked for rather than deflecting toward whatever your notion of "capitalism" is?

Is it that you simply have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses?
Where does your non-independent source help re: 0.06? Let alone, methodology.

From your source: "there is little real-world, patient-reported data on adverse effects after receiving COVID-19 vaccination and in whom adverse effects may be more common."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 25, 2022, 06:16:06 PM
Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Stack didn't help you at all.

I am sure Pfizer is acting according to capitalism as you understand it, which actually speaks volumes about your understanding rather than capitalism.

You asked for a non-Pfizer independent source. You got one. Why not address what you asked for rather than deflecting toward whatever your notion of "capitalism" is?

Is it that you simply have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses?

Where does your non-independent source help re: 0.06? Let alone, methodology.

Under the heading called "Methods".

Before I waste more time, what stats are you actually looking for? Stats for any After Effects (AE), Severe After Effects (SAE - Usually defined as would you have to miss a day of work after a jab) and/or Life-Threatening After Effects (Like going into anaphylactic shock and can't breathe or some heart inflammation issue, etc.

From your source: "there is little real-world, patient-reported data on adverse effects after receiving COVID-19 vaccination and in whom adverse effects may be more common."

Yep. And that's what the study set out to tackle.

Do you have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses? Would you prefer Russia's Sputnik vax?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 26, 2022, 02:58:11 PM
Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Stack didn't help you at all.

I am sure Pfizer is acting according to capitalism as you understand it, which actually speaks volumes about your understanding rather than capitalism.

You asked for a non-Pfizer independent source. You got one. Why not address what you asked for rather than deflecting toward whatever your notion of "capitalism" is?

Is it that you simply have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses?

Where does your non-independent source help re: 0.06? Let alone, methodology.

Under the heading called "Methods".

Before I waste more time, what stats are you actually looking for? Stats for any After Effects (AE), Severe After Effects (SAE - Usually defined as would you have to miss a day of work after a jab) and/or Life-Threatening After Effects (Like going into anaphylactic shock and can't breathe or some heart inflammation issue, etc.

From your source: "there is little real-world, patient-reported data on adverse effects after receiving COVID-19 vaccination and in whom adverse effects may be more common."

Yep. And that's what the study set out to tackle.

Do you have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses? Would you prefer Russia's Sputnik vax?
I asked for a source independent of Pfizer's bullshit marketing ploy regarding adverse effects citing support for the Norwegian's #'s. You got nothing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 08:15:56 PM
Thanks, Stack.
I was just gonna ignore him because I have better shit to do than feed a troll whose not gonna accept anything I throw out anyway.
Stack didn't help you at all.

I am sure Pfizer is acting according to capitalism as you understand it, which actually speaks volumes about your understanding rather than capitalism.

You asked for a non-Pfizer independent source. You got one. Why not address what you asked for rather than deflecting toward whatever your notion of "capitalism" is?

Is it that you simply have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses?

Where does your non-independent source help re: 0.06? Let alone, methodology.

Under the heading called "Methods".

Before I waste more time, what stats are you actually looking for? Stats for any After Effects (AE), Severe After Effects (SAE - Usually defined as would you have to miss a day of work after a jab) and/or Life-Threatening After Effects (Like going into anaphylactic shock and can't breathe or some heart inflammation issue, etc.

From your source: "there is little real-world, patient-reported data on adverse effects after receiving COVID-19 vaccination and in whom adverse effects may be more common."

Yep. And that's what the study set out to tackle.

Do you have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses? Would you prefer Russia's Sputnik vax?
I asked for a source independent of Pfizer's bullshit marketing ploy regarding adverse effects citing support for the Norwegian's #'s. You got nothing.

And I gave you a source. The CDC figures Dave provided were in relation to Severe Side Effects. As defined: Serious adverse events were defined as any untoward medical occurrence that resulted in death, was life-threatening, required inpatient hospitalization or prolongation of existing hospitalization, or resulted in persistent disability/incapacity.

In the independent study I provided, severe side effects were as follows:

There was not a statistically significant difference in odds of severe or very severe adverse effects reported by participants receiving the JNJ-78436735 vaccine compared with the BNT162b2 vaccine (OR, 1.03; 95% CI, 0.67-1.58; P = .89).

Pretty much inline with the CDC. If you had actually read the study, you might know this.

In any case, do you have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses? Would you prefer Russia's Sputnik vax? India uses that one a lot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on February 27, 2022, 05:45:03 PM
I'm sure nothing could go wrong here:
https://youtu.be/R5qxrt-j5BE
Prior to this whole business of vaccines for respiratory illnesses (which do not prevent you from catching OR spreading said illnesses), you got a vaccine if you desired to be immune to the effects of the virus. Now, with this development, pharma intends to give you the vaccine whether you want it or not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on February 27, 2022, 09:33:27 PM
I'm sure nothing could go wrong here:
Now, with this development, pharma intends to give you the vaccine whether you want it or not.

When should we expect this to occur? This is nothing new. According to the article Mr. Dore cites, folks have been messing around with this tech for at least 20 years. Also, is Mr. Dore your sole source of info these days?

Lastly, you never answered the question: Do you have an issue with Pfizer alone and not the other vaccines India has been using to dole out 1.8 billion doses? Would you prefer Russia's Sputnik vax?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on February 28, 2022, 09:51:48 AM
Interesting video about attitudes towards the vaccine across the political divide in the US and what those attitudes are based on

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sv0dQfRRrEQ
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 03, 2022, 03:56:30 AM
Sorry kid, but you don't usually read about kids in textbooks unless it's about a tragedy.

(https://i.imgur.com/GnjJEhh.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on March 03, 2022, 11:25:24 AM
Sorry kid, but you don't usually read about kids in textbooks unless it's about a tragedy.

Did you mean to post this in terrible political memes? That’s about the level of your punditry here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on March 03, 2022, 12:24:11 PM
Sorry kid, but you don't usually read about kids in textbooks unless it's about a tragedy.

(https://i.imgur.com/GnjJEhh.jpg)
My wife has 5-10 textbooks in the attic that would disagree with you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2022, 08:33:21 PM
It looks like Phizer is finally releasing its safety data.

The Pfizer Vaccine Only Has 1,291 Side Effects! - A judge forced the FDA to release Pfizer's clinical data and it's worse than you can possibly imagine (https://emeralddb3.substack.com/p/the-pfizer-vaccine-only-has-1291?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo3NDk3MTg4OSwicG9zdF9pZCI6NDk3Mjc5NDUsIl8iOiJ0WWg1ayIsImlhdCI6MTY0NjQxMTEzNSwiZXhwIjoxNjQ2NDE0NzM1LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMjYzMDYzIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.Api-NNPePu-Xc&s=r)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on March 05, 2022, 08:53:34 PM
It looks like Phizer is finally releasing its safety data.

The Pfizer Vaccine Only Has 1,291 Side Effects! - A judge forced the FDA to release Pfizer's clinical data and it's worse than you can possibly imagine (https://emeralddb3.substack.com/p/the-pfizer-vaccine-only-has-1291?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo3NDk3MTg4OSwicG9zdF9pZCI6NDk3Mjc5NDUsIl8iOiJ0WWg1ayIsImlhdCI6MTY0NjQxMTEzNSwiZXhwIjoxNjQ2NDE0NzM1LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMjYzMDYzIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.Api-NNPePu-Xc&s=r)

Is that a list of everything the vaccine caused (because they did a study) or a list of everything that people got after getting the vaccine?
Because one is not the same as the other.
Like I could die from a gunshot wound after taking the vaccine.  Doesn't mean the vaccine shot me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on March 05, 2022, 09:15:13 PM
It's everything, and I mean everything ever reported by anyone out of various countries, whether clinically assessed or not, whether caused by the vaccine or not. (Ex., how do you succumb to an Alchoholic Seizure from a vaccine?) Here's how the paper should be viewed (From the Introduction, page 5):

The limitations of post-marketing adverse drug event reporting should be considered when
interpreting these data:

• Reports are submitted voluntarily, and the magnitude of underreporting is unknown. Some of the factors that may influence whether an event is reported include: length of time since marketing, market share of the drug, publicity about a drug or an AE, seriousness of the reaction, regulatory actions, awareness by health professionals and consumers of adverse drug event reporting, and litigation.

• Because many external factors influence whether or not an AE is reported, the spontaneous reporting system yields reporting proportions not incidence rates. As a result, it is generally not appropriate to make between-drug comparisons using these proportions; the spontaneous reporting system should be used for signal detection rather than hypothesis testing.

• In some reports, clinical information (such as medical history, validation of diagnosis, time from drug use to onset of illness, dose, and use of concomitant drugs) is missing or incomplete, and follow-up information may not be available.

• An accumulation of adverse event reports (AERs) does not necessarily indicate that a particular AE was caused by the drug; rather, the event may be due to an underlying disease or some other factor(s) such as past medical history or concomitant medication.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2022, 09:21:40 PM
Yes, lots of side effects are to be expected when it affects your immune system.

https://twitter.com/kdhanjal12/status/1500108767593119748
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on March 05, 2022, 10:23:22 PM
Yes, lots of side effects are to be expected when it affects your immune system.

https://twitter.com/kdhanjal12/status/1500108767593119748

Yes.  I can see how alcoholic consumption triggering seizures is definitely a factor of the immune system.  I mean, it is what filters alcohol and what triggers seizures.

 ::)

Also, that Kay woman's twitter feed looks like she's bias as hell.  Wouldn't trust her anectdotes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on March 05, 2022, 10:30:31 PM
What does, "Now, after every month I get sick" mean? After she gets her period she gets sick? Not disparaging, but it's the only monthly thing I can think of.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: juner on March 06, 2022, 04:17:33 AM
Sorry kid, but you don't usually read about kids in textbooks unless it's about a tragedy.

(https://i.imgur.com/GnjJEhh.jpg)
My wife has 5-10 textbooks in the attic that would disagree with you.

tbh the new york state study shows that the vax is basically useless for kids 5-11. assuming under 5 will need an even smaller dose, there really isn't a reason to push for it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 06, 2022, 10:42:23 PM
Ivermectin now shown to be effective, once Uncle Hairy Legs said all is good:

https://youtu.be/rfyOihhAD4A
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on March 06, 2022, 11:59:20 PM
Ivermectin now shown to be effective, once Uncle Hairy Legs said all is good:

This could be great news. He says, at 05:25, "...of the odds ratio of 0.381, in other words you're about 70% less likely to die if you take ivermectin compared to taking Remdesivir."

(https://i.imgur.com/HBV1APS.png)

How do you calculate that to get 70%? I'm not questioning it, just don't understand the math. I tried using a Medical Study Odds Ratio Calculator (https://www.medcalc.org/calc/odds_ratio.php), but there doesn't seem to be enough data, being a conference paper, to calculate it.

This was an interesting hot-take from a commenter, "This is a comparison with the people who took remdesivir, not people who took nothing - could it be that the remdesivir was making things worse, and the ivermectin was doing nothing?" A valid question.

Seems that results have been kind of inconsistent across studies. But yeah, if cheap old Ivermectin is a sound therapy, awesome.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 09:26:49 AM
I'll just leave this here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60653946

Obviously the usual suspects with disregard this because it doesn't say what they want, but whatevz.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 08, 2022, 09:38:02 AM
I'll just leave this here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60653946

Obviously the usual suspects with disregard this because it doesn't say what they want, but whatevz.
But...bu...bu...but...VAERS...
“The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyoneand can be submitted electronically

lol. Compelling.
Goddamn...make up your mind...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 09:41:05 AM
You're comparing a public service where ANYONE can report side effects with no oversight or evidence that there's any casual link to the vaccine, to scientific studies.

If you don't understand why those are not the same things then I don't know how to help you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 08, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
You're comparing a public service where ANYONE can report side effects with no oversight or evidence that there's any casual link to the vaccine, to scientific studies.

If you don't understand why those are not the same things then I don't know how to help you.
It is an observational study of a source you consider illegitimate, as evidenced by your prior posts in this very thread.

Since the vaccine doesn't actually work, and it has killed people, then your entire take on this can be summarily dismissed without prejudice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 09:56:19 AM
It is an observational study of a source you consider illegitimate
I don't consider it illegitimate, neither do I see it as evidence that we're all going to die from the vaccine.
I'm sure the people reporting reactions are mostly doing so sincerely, but given that anyone can report something that doesn't mean there was a casual link.
So there needs to be some analysis of that data, which is what this report provides.

I'll ignore the rest of your lies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 08, 2022, 11:04:07 AM
It is an observational study of a source you consider illegitimate
I don't consider it illegitimate, neither do I see it as evidence that we're all going to die from the vaccine.
I'm sure the people reporting reactions are mostly doing so sincerely, but given that anyone can report something that doesn't mean there was a casual link.
So there needs to be some analysis of that data, which is what this report provides.

I'll ignore the rest of your lies.
You do believe VAERS to be unreliable and illegitimate as you posted earlier, yet somehow observation of the unreliable can be reliable.

I'll ignore all of your lies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 11:46:21 AM
You do believe VAERS to be unreliable and illegitimate as you posted earlier

No. I was responding to Tom's post where he said

By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus:

And he used VAERS data to back that up. That isn't valid and if you look at my post in the ensuing conversation, which you have dishonestly omitted, I explain why that's not valid:

I'm not saying that people are reporting falsely - some may be, and you've cited an example where someone did.
But the point is anyone can report an incident. This it not official government data. These were reported in the last week.
No-one has investigated all these cases and officially found a causal link between these deaths and the vaccine.

TL;DR - the VAERS data is not "illegitimate" and I never said it was. It may be unreliable but that needs further investigation.
Which has been done. That's the study I linked to is about.

Don't you get tired of so dishonestly misrepresenting people?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 08, 2022, 12:09:25 PM
You do believe VAERS to be unreliable and illegitimate as you posted earlier

No. I was responding to Tom's post where he said

By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus:

And he used VAERS data to back that up. That isn't valid and if you look at my post in the ensuing conversation, which you have dishonestly omitted, I explain why that's not valid:

I'm not saying that people are reporting falsely - some may be, and you've cited an example where someone did.
But the point is anyone can report an incident. This it not official government data. These were reported in the last week.
No-one has investigated all these cases and officially found a causal link between these deaths and the vaccine.

TL;DR - the VAERS data is not "illegitimate" and I never said it was. It may be unreliable but that needs further investigation.
Which has been done. That's the study I linked to is about.

Don't you get tired of so dishonestly misrepresenting people?
When it comes to your garbage, there can be no misrepresentation.

Your study is garbage. It is an observational study based on incomplete sources,

Your entire position during this whole plandemic has been in the sole service of inflicting the most possible harm on the most possible number of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 08, 2022, 01:17:59 PM
Vaers is the only government reporting mechanism for its affect on the US population. It is disingenuous to reject it in favor of zero data when you have no positive evidence in your favor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 01:33:49 PM
Vaers is the only government reporting mechanism for its affect on the US population. It is disingenuous to reject it in favor of zero data
Which is not what's happened.
I rejected your hysterical conclusions which were based on self-reported data. That is erroneous when no investigation had been done to determine a causal link.
That had now been done which is the report I linked to. Fancy having a look to see what that found?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 08, 2022, 03:28:01 PM
Vaers is the only government reporting mechanism for its affect on the US population. It is disingenuous to reject it in favor of zero data
Which is not what's happened.
I rejected your hysterical conclusions which were based on self-reported data. That is erroneous when no investigation had been done to determine a causal link.
That had now been done which is the report I linked to. Fancy having a look to see what that found?

Yes, I looked at the lancet paper linked in the bbc article. It merely re-reports on what VAERS claims. It doesn't say that the VAERS reports are false.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00054-8/fulltext

Quote
Findings
During the study period, 298 792 852 doses of mRNA vaccines were administered in the USA. VAERS processed 340 522 reports: 313 499 (92·1%) were non-serious, 22 527 (6·6%) were serious (non-death), and 4496 (1·3%) were deaths. Over half of 7 914 583 v-safe participants self-reported local and systemic reactogenicity, more frequently after dose two (4 068 447 [71·7%] of 5 674 420 participants for local reactogenicity and 4 018 920 [70·8%] for systemic) than after dose one (4 644 989 [68·6%] of 6 775 515 participants for local reactogenicity and 3 573 429 [52·7%] for systemic). Injection-site pain (4 488 402 [66·2%] of 6 775 515 participants after dose one and 3 890 848 [68·6%] of 5 674 420 participants after dose two), fatigue (2 295 205 [33·9%] participants after dose one and 3 158 299 participants [55·7%] after dose two), and headache (1 831 471 [27·0%] participants after dose one and 2 623 721 [46·2%] participants after dose two) were commonly reported during days 0–7 following vaccination. Reactogenicity was reported most frequently the day after vaccination; most reactions were mild. More reports of being unable to work, do normal activities, or of seeking medical care occurred after dose two (1 821 421 [32·1%]) than after dose one (808 963 [11·9%]); less than 1% of participants reported seeking medical care after vaccination (56 647 [0·8%] after dose one and 53 077 [0·9%] after dose two).

Interpretation
Safety data from more than 298 million doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine administered in the first 6 months of the US vaccination programme show that most reported adverse events were mild and short in duration.

If you had actually bothered to read it, you would see that it is not asserting that VAERS is false at all. It accepts that 8% of those people had serious conditions and states that most reports are less-serious. It does not contradict, object to, or discredit anything in VAERS. It merely reports what is asserted in VAERS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 03:42:22 PM
It doesn't say that the VAERS reports are false.
Define false in this context.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 08, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
It's not a paper which contradicts VAERS.

If anything the paper is just trying to downplay what it means. As in "Yeah, there were a lot of reactions which sent people to the doctor, and 8% of people in VAERS had serious life threatening conditions, but not everyone died, no big deal."

The paper accepts what VAERS reports. It does not say it is false.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on March 08, 2022, 04:17:06 PM
It's not a paper which contradicts VAERS.
Correct. Because VAERS is merely a reporting system. And a self-reporting system. Anyone can report an adverse event.
VAERS just collects data for further investigation. It's not something which can be agreed with or contradicted.

So someone had the Covid vaccine, the next day they died in, let's say a motorcycle accident - there's been a lot of those over the last couple of years, haven't there?
A relative could report that to VAERS. Their report wouldn't be "false", the relative did have the vaccine and the next day they did die. But when looking into that you'd find there is no causal link between those two events. The paper is not "trying" to do anything - unlike you, who are trying to emphasise the risks of the vaccine which your commander in chief developed and actively promotes.
The paper is merely looking at the VAERS data to see if there are any patterns which are of concern and should be investigated further.
And their conclusions are:

Quote
In our review and analysis of death reports to VAERS following mRNA vaccination, we found no unusual patterns in cause of death among the death reports received

and

Quote
Another surveillance system, the VSD, showed no increased risk of non-COVID-19 mortality in vaccinated people.

and

Quote
Serious adverse events, including myocarditis, have been identified following mRNA vaccinations; however, these events are rare. Vaccines are the most effective tool to prevent serious COVID-19 disease outcomes49 and the benefits of immunisation in preventing serious morbidity and mortality strongly favour vaccination

Hooray! Trump was right, the vaccine is safe. That's good, isn't it? You like it when he's right don't you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 08, 2022, 04:23:44 PM
Wait a minute.

You are stating that a coroner, who would record a person who died due to a motorcycle accident but had Covid, as a death due to Covid, wouldn't be expected to record a person dying due to a motorcycle accident, but having the vaccine, as a death due to the vaccine?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on March 08, 2022, 04:55:40 PM
VAERS is like Yelp. 
If I need to say more, you fail.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on March 08, 2022, 05:00:27 PM
VAERS is like Yelp. 
If I need to say more, you fail.
Oh, no wonder AATW was so fucking against it.

Jesus, who the fuck trusts Yelp, ffs?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2022, 04:58:22 PM
Totally normal

https://twitter.com/HarrisonofTX/status/1528133042010832896
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 23, 2022, 05:46:03 PM
Totally normal

https://twitter.com/HarrisonofTX/status/1528133042010832896

Keep what hidden?  People having a heart attack after running a marathon?  Why would that need to be kept secret?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on May 23, 2022, 08:59:23 PM
Totally normal

https://twitter.com/HarrisonofTX/status/1528133042010832896

Rare, but not unheard of for races that can attract tens of thousands of runners.
Quote from: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/20/health.marathon.fitness/index.html
Three runners collapsed and died during the Detroit Marathon on Sunday. Although that news is shocking and frightening for runners and non-runners alike, such deaths are rare, experts say.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2022, 10:06:41 PM
Yeah, the expert compared it to people who die from lightening strikes while golfing:


Meanwhile there has been a noted increase in sports related heart attacks, as well as increased heart attacks among young adults, to which Channel 7 Boston blames on "cannibis use" at the 1:45 mark here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR2kaR8VYO8
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2022, 10:38:24 PM
Totally normal

Look at the fog / mist / pollution they were running through. No wonder something went wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 23, 2022, 11:23:47 PM
Tom displaying a profound lack of critical faculty by assuming this is COVID vaccine connected. Also…

lightening strikes

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2022, 12:49:01 AM
Tom displaying a profound lack of critical faculty by assuming this is COVID vaccine connected.

Actually it plays perfectly into the litany of sports related heart incidents which started after introduction of the Covid vaccine.

2021 held the record for most FIFA players to die on the field. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

See: 5-fold increase in sudden cardiac deaths of FIFA players in 2021 (https://stephenc.substack.com/p/5-fold-increase-in-sudden-cardiac?s=r)

(https://i.imgur.com/jImdBAl.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 24, 2022, 01:55:15 AM
Correlation equals causation in Tom’s world.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on May 24, 2022, 02:12:33 AM
Tom displaying a profound lack of critical faculty by assuming this is COVID vaccine connected.

Actually it plays perfectly into the litany of sports related heart incidents which started after introduction of the Covid vaccine.

2021 held the record for most FIFA players to die on the field. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing
How many of those players were fully, partially or not vaccinated?  How many had covid at some point before or after vaccination?  How many were using recreational or performance enhancing drugs?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2022, 02:46:51 AM
Correlation equals causation in Tom’s world.

Correlation is not necessarily causation. But there is no causation without correlation.

https://goodsciencing.com/covid/athletes-suffer-cardiac-arrest-die-after-covid-shot/

Quote
The International Olympic Committee in Lausanne, Switzerland, studied documents from international data banks from 1966 to 2004. Those documents indicate 1,101 sudden deaths in athletes under 35 years of age, an average of 29 athletes per year, the sports with the highest incidence being soccer and basketball. (NIH Document)

A study by Maron on sudden death in US athletes, from 1980 to 2006 in thirty-eight sports identified 1,866 deaths of athletes with cardiac disease, with a prevalence of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

2005 to 2006 averaged sixty-six (66) deaths per year, with 82% of those occurring during competition or training.

Thanks to investigator readers for discovering these reports, and this story in Spanish. Momento Deportivo.

In 2021 and 2022 so far, cardiac disease has not been mentioned. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy was mentioned twice, but those two reports were listed in the “not vax related” list. “Enlarged heart” was only mentioned three times, but there was no indication this was a long-term or recent issue (possibly due to vaccine injury).

The above shows that in prior years, there were 66 deaths per year, but there have been 86 reported in January 2022, so far.

(https://i.imgur.com/7hUjTmr.jpg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/

Quote
(https://i.imgur.com/Du0N81t.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 24, 2022, 04:08:41 AM
Your chart is from "Good Sciencing". Interesting back-story:

How the falsehood of athletes dying of coronavirus vaccines spread (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/01/how-falsehood-athletes-dying-covid-vaccines-spread/)

She (Sen. Ron Johnson's (R-Wis.) spokeswoman, Alexa Henning) provided a link to a website called Good Sciencing, maintained by anonymous people, that has a blog post with the headline, as of Jan. 31: “577 Athlete Cardiac Arrests, Serious Issues, 352 Dead, After COVID Shot.”

Here’s the rub: This claim has been debunked repeatedly. The story of athletes dropping dead from coronavirus vaccines has its roots in mysterious Austrian websites with ties to that country’s far-right populist party, the Freedom Party. Those stories were then recycled by right-wing media in the United States and then eventually came out of the mouth of a U.S. senator.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2022, 04:15:10 AM
If you scroll down to the bottom of that page the authors provide over a thousand linked sources for the data, of each person who died. It's clearly not fake.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 24, 2022, 06:42:54 AM
If you scroll down to the bottom of that page the authors provide over a thousand linked sources for the data, of each person who died. It's clearly not fake.

Seems like cardiac events for young athletes have been on the rise since 1980:

(https://i.imgur.com/BS9hBZt.png)
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circulationaha.108.804617

I looked at a bunch of the links to news stories about some of the deaths. Couldn't find a single one that attributed a death to vaccines. One of the news stories even said, "According to the medical examiner's office in Roanoke, Va., the athlete, 20, died by suicide."

Another one, "Former Auburn QB Jeff Klein Dead Shortly After Stage 4 Cancer Diagnosis: 'We Lost a Good One'"

"The 52-year-old WWE Hall of Famer noted that he experienced health issues back in September. Receiving a procedure for what has been discovered to be a genetic heart issue that caused heart failure, Triple H now has a defibrillator in his chest."

"Winger Maddy Lawrence, 20, had been playing for the University of West England Women's second team against the University of Bristol on March 7 when she was injured. The first-year student later died in hospital on Friday, March 25. Her family say she had contracted an infection and her rugby injury was not life-threatening."

"The body of a teenager has been pulled from the water at Mugdock Country Park."


Here's one where Covid infection was the cause of death:

"Case in point, newly acquired Dutch attacker Delano Burgzorg. The Rheinhessen club confirmed on Tuesday that the 23-year-old was diagnosed with mild heart inflammation during a routine post-COVID exam. Much like--among many others--Bayern fullback winger Alphonso Davies, Burgzorg's COVID infection has left him with some lingering effects."

There doesn't seem to be any correlation presented between athlete deaths and vaccination.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2022, 08:24:41 AM
So the athlete deaths increase by a few every year, but then in 2021 it suddenly increases multiple fold in a single year like the FIFA increase, and coincidentally increasing in number throughout the year as the vaccines are rolled out in number throughout the year, sure.  ::)

If the vaccine lowers bodily immunity as it is alleged then it could result in things like infection or cancer. Many of those are heart issues. It takes a professional denialist to blindly deny athletes clutching their chest at cup tournaments as normal and expected.

(https://i.imgur.com/bhtH3n3.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 24, 2022, 09:46:57 AM
So the athlete deaths increase by a few every year, but then in 2021 it suddenly increases multiple fold in a single year like the FIFA increase, and coincidentally increasing in number throughout the year as the vaccines are rolled out in number throughout the year, sure.  ::)

If the vaccine lowers bodily immunity as it is alleged then it could result in things like infection or cancer. Many of those are heart issues. It takes a professional denialist to blindly deny athletes clutching their chest at cup tournaments as normal and expected.

(https://i.imgur.com/bhtH3n3.jpg)

Well, this is strange:

Andy Murray beats Nikoloz Basilashvili in five-set thriller at Australian Open
https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/33090267/andy-murray-beat-nikoloz-basilashvili-five-set-thriller-australian-open

Murray beats Basilashvili a week or so later after the Sydney ATP tourney where he dropped out of because he had trouble breathing.

Looks like he recovered from whatever was going on in just about 10 days. Must be some sort of miracle. Even more of a miracle, he has gone on to compete in:

Feb
- Dubai

March
- Indian Wells
- Miami Masters

April
- Monte Carlo
- Barcelona
- Munich

May
- Madrid
- Rome
- Geneva

All the run-up during Clay Season to Roland Garros, where he has since won his first round match. Truly a miracle.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2022, 10:06:40 AM
Yes, because the claim here is that it has a 100% near term fatality rate.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 24, 2022, 05:30:38 PM
Yes, because the claim here is that it has a 100% near term fatality rate.  ::)

What are you referring to as a 100% near term fatality rate?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on May 24, 2022, 09:04:14 PM
So the athlete deaths increase by a few every year, but then in 2021 it suddenly increases multiple fold in a single year like the FIFA increase, and coincidentally increasing in number throughout the year as the vaccines are rolled out in number throughout the year, sure.  ::)
So you don't think that the worsening opioid epidemic might have anything to do with the uptick in deaths?
https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/issue-brief-increases-in-opioid-related-overdose.pdf

If the vaccine lowers bodily immunity as it is alleged then it could result in things like infection or cancer.
Sorry, but unsupported "what ifs" are not a compelling argument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2022, 01:26:29 PM
so mystery

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10895067/Doctors-trying-determine-young-people-suddenly-dying.html

(https://i.imgur.com/IHbh6hD.png)

and you thought sudden death syndrome only applied to infants

(https://i.imgur.com/8esCl5N.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 08, 2022, 01:49:19 PM
From the Daily Mail!  LAMO!

Panic!  One 31 year old lady died last year, and we don't know why!!!!!  Run!  It's a conspiracy I tell you!!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 08, 2022, 02:00:28 PM
From the Daily Mail!  LAMO!

Panic!  One 31 year old lady died last year, and we don't know why!!!!!  Run!  It's a conspiracy I tell you!!!!
Don't run, silly. That will just make the chest pains worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2022, 02:27:40 PM
From the Daily Mail!  LAMO!

Daily Mail isn't satire.

Neither is Euro Weekly News:

https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/06/08/sudden-adult-death-syndrome-sads/

(https://i.imgur.com/SzuSIQe.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/xYLbmR3.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 08, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
Daily Mail isn't satire.

Neither is Euro Weekly News:
No, not satire, but mostly just hilarious tabloid sensationalist media.  Anything to keep the paranoid and easily mislead coming back for more exaggerated conspiratorial gibberish.  Just your kind of "news" sources Tom.  Bolster up that confirmation bias, buddy!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2022, 02:42:43 PM
No, it's not satire. The story is not false, which is why other sources are reporting on the same subject.

By merely claiming sensationalism your stance appears to be that it is not a big deal that there is an increase of young healthy people dying from this, and not that the story is false that there is an increase of young healthy people dying of this. Which is a weak argument, to say the least, and admits truth to the premise of the story.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 08, 2022, 02:52:04 PM
Daily Mail isn't satire.

Neither is Euro Weekly News:
No, not satire, but mostly just hilarious tabloid sensationalist media.  Anything to keep the paranoid and easily mislead coming back for more exaggerated conspiratorial gibberish.  Just your kind of "news" sources Tom.  Bolster up that confirmation bias, buddy!
Ah yes, the good old Daily Mail. Tom isn't from the UK so obviously doesn't know what a despicable rag it is, but anything that fits his agenda.
The Daily Mail were the ones hysterically wringing their hands about the MMR jab until they did a swift U-Turn once that report about autism was discredited.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2022, 02:54:54 PM
By merely claiming that the news is true but sensationalized you are admitting that it's true that there is an increase of sudden deaths, not that it is false.

You are not even claiming that the story is false, just that we shouldn't worry about it. How stupid is that?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 08, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
By merely claiming that the news is true but sensationalized you are admitting that it's true that there is an increase of sudden deaths, not that it is false.

You are not even claiming that the story is false, just that we shouldn't worry about it. How stupid is that?

Hey tom.

Texas had a sudden increase of deaths recently.  Should you be worried?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 08, 2022, 03:25:49 PM
By merely claiming sensationalism your stance appears to be that it is not a big deal that there is an increase of young healthy people dying from this... blah, blah.

Well, first off I would not take any story like this seriously until I've had a gander at where the data came from, how the analysis was done and a detailed explanation on how the conclusions were drawn.  2nd, before I went down that road I'd look and see if there was any hubbub about this in the scientific publications just to make sure that it had some attention from the peers of the scientist's reporting it.  If I could find no evidence that the story was not fully scientifically based I would give it all the attention it deserves.

All that said, claiming sensationalism of a story from the Daily Mail goes without saying.  They would not "print" it otherwise.

That also being said, everyone, regardless of age, should get a physical every year.  That usually means having a gander at things cardio vascular in nature.  Also one 31 YO dyeing of unknown causes last year?  For fuck's sake Tom.  WTF does that even mean?  There were probably 10,000's of unexplained deaths around the world last year. In 1983 too.  Give your head a shake.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 08, 2022, 03:29:05 PM
The article said that 750 people die a year from this condition. I couldn't find any statistics to show an extreme increase or a link to covid vaccine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 08, 2022, 07:38:49 PM
By merely claiming that the news is true but sensationalized you are admitting that it's true that there is an increase of sudden deaths, not that it is false.

You are not even claiming that the story is false, just that we shouldn't worry about it. How stupid is that?

Why are you posting all of this in the 'Coronavirus Vaccine and You' thread?

Apparently, SADS is nothing new. This from 2007:

Sudden arrhythmic death syndrome: a national survey of sudden unexplained cardiac death (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1955564/)

Conclusions
Deaths from SADS occur predominantly in young males. When compared with official mortality, the incidence of SADS may be up to eight times higher than estimated: more than 500 potential SADS cases per annum in England. Families with SADS carry genetic cardiac disease, placing them at risk of further sudden deaths. SADS should therefore be a certifiable cause of death prompting specialised cardiological evaluation of families.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2022, 07:50:23 PM
By merely claiming that the news is true but sensationalized you are admitting that it's true that there is an increase of sudden deaths, not that it is false.

You are not even claiming that the story is false, just that we shouldn't worry about it. How stupid is that?

Why are you posting all of this in the 'Coronavirus Vaccine and You' thread?

Apparently, SADS is nothing new. This from 2007:

Sudden arrhythmic death syndrome: a national survey of sudden unexplained cardiac death (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1955564/)

Conclusions
Deaths from SADS occur predominantly in young males. When compared with official mortality, the incidence of SADS may be up to eight times higher than estimated: more than 500 potential SADS cases per annum in England. Families with SADS carry genetic cardiac disease, placing them at risk of further sudden deaths. SADS should therefore be a certifiable cause of death prompting specialised cardiological evaluation of families.

It's ridiculous.  Tom's link doesn't even have a reference to COVID or vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2022, 08:38:36 PM
By merely claiming that the news is true but sensationalized you are admitting that it's true that there is an increase of sudden deaths, not that it is false.

You are not even claiming that the story is false, just that we shouldn't worry about it. How stupid is that?

Why are you posting all of this in the 'Coronavirus Vaccine and You' thread?

Apparently, SADS is nothing new. This from 2007:

Sudden arrhythmic death syndrome: a national survey of sudden unexplained cardiac death (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1955564/)

Conclusions
Deaths from SADS occur predominantly in young males. When compared with official mortality, the incidence of SADS may be up to eight times higher than estimated: more than 500 potential SADS cases per annum in England. Families with SADS carry genetic cardiac disease, placing them at risk of further sudden deaths. SADS should therefore be a certifiable cause of death prompting specialised cardiological evaluation of families.

Nowhere was it claimed that it was new. It was claimed that there was an increase, with doctors issuing warnings about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2022, 08:53:20 PM
By merely claiming that the news is true but sensationalized you are admitting that it's true that there is an increase of sudden deaths, not that it is false.

You are not even claiming that the story is false, just that we shouldn't worry about it. How stupid is that?

Why are you posting all of this in the 'Coronavirus Vaccine and You' thread?

Apparently, SADS is nothing new. This from 2007:

Sudden arrhythmic death syndrome: a national survey of sudden unexplained cardiac death (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1955564/)

Conclusions
Deaths from SADS occur predominantly in young males. When compared with official mortality, the incidence of SADS may be up to eight times higher than estimated: more than 500 potential SADS cases per annum in England. Families with SADS carry genetic cardiac disease, placing them at risk of further sudden deaths. SADS should therefore be a certifiable cause of death prompting specialised cardiological evaluation of families.

Nowhere was it claimed that it was new. It was claimed that there was an increase, with doctors issuing warnings about it.

This is a thread about the coronavirus vaccine, could you please try and keep it on topic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 08, 2022, 09:05:35 PM
Nowhere was it claimed that it was new. It was claimed that there was an increase, with doctors issuing warnings about it.

I'm still looking for the numbers indicating the percentage of increase. Did I miss it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 02:33:13 AM
Nowhere was it claimed that it was new. It was claimed that there was an increase, with doctors issuing warnings about it.

I'm still looking for the numbers indicating the percentage of increase. Did I miss it?

The articles indicated that there was an increase, but didn't quantify it.

This doctor does, however:

https://www.redvoicemedia.com/video/2022/06/doctors-are-baffled-by-the-increase-in-sudden-adult-death-syndrome-sads/

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 02:41:45 AM
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/red-voice-media/ (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/red-voice-media/)

Quote
Overall, we rate Red Voice Media Right Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, the use of poor sources, and failed fact checks.

Yup, Tom's crowd.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 02:43:15 AM
Actually the quote isn't coming from the proprietors of that website, it's coming from a doctor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 02:46:21 AM
Here's more about Tom's buddy Ryan..

Quote
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/

Just google his name.  His lack of respect from the medical/science community is exemplary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 02:49:06 AM
I did google his name. He's a real doctor. You're not.

Nor is the author of that web page you linked attempting to critique him. The person who wrote that article has a BA in Philosophy (https://www.linkedin.com/in/saranac-hale-spencer-95206313b/).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 02:49:45 AM
I did google his name. He's a real doctor. You're not.
And by what magic do you know this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 02:55:41 AM
Nor is the author of that web page you linked attempting to critique him.
So, is a homicide detective a murderer?

Your logic may be good (eh) but your premise is #1 grade BS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 03:03:55 AM
How about his: https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/96143 (https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/96143)

Or this: https://idahocapitalsun.com/2022/05/06/idaho-doctor-who-falsely-links-covid-19-vaccine-to-cancer-has-misdiagnosed-patients/ (https://idahocapitalsun.com/2022/05/06/idaho-doctor-who-falsely-links-covid-19-vaccine-to-cancer-has-misdiagnosed-patients/)

Hey, here's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvLmV0BpUk

Oh, here's another love letter for Ryan: https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/investigations/7-investigates/records-from-washington-investigation-detail-complaints-against-dr-ryan-cole-washington-medical-commission/277-294e1b14-3562-4f49-8ca1-618407ad57f7 (https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/investigations/7-investigates/records-from-washington-investigation-detail-complaints-against-dr-ryan-cole-washington-medical-commission/277-294e1b14-3562-4f49-8ca1-618407ad57f7)

I could go on all night.  Would you like another champion?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 09, 2022, 03:09:09 AM
i'd love to get a citation on "hundreds of soccer players per month are dying on the field." i do not believe that at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 03:12:07 AM
As far as I can tell, Ryan Cole is still a doctor and a pathologist, no matter what detractors may criticize him for. As he his a doctor, it means that he is an authority and his opinion has merit.

i'd love to get a citation on "hundreds of soccer players per month are dying on the field." i do not believe that at all.

He said athletes, not only soccer players. We saw on the previous pages that the numbers increased quite significantly, to which Markjo blames opioid abuse.

Tom displaying a profound lack of critical faculty by assuming this is COVID vaccine connected.

Actually it plays perfectly into the litany of sports related heart incidents which started after introduction of the Covid vaccine.

2021 held the record for most FIFA players to die on the field. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

See: 5-fold increase in sudden cardiac deaths of FIFA players in 2021 (https://stephenc.substack.com/p/5-fold-increase-in-sudden-cardiac?s=r)

(https://i.imgur.com/jImdBAl.png)

Correlation equals causation in Tom’s world.

Correlation is not necessarily causation. But there is no causation without correlation.

https://goodsciencing.com/covid/athletes-suffer-cardiac-arrest-die-after-covid-shot/

Quote
The International Olympic Committee in Lausanne, Switzerland, studied documents from international data banks from 1966 to 2004. Those documents indicate 1,101 sudden deaths in athletes under 35 years of age, an average of 29 athletes per year, the sports with the highest incidence being soccer and basketball. (NIH Document)

A study by Maron on sudden death in US athletes, from 1980 to 2006 in thirty-eight sports identified 1,866 deaths of athletes with cardiac disease, with a prevalence of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

2005 to 2006 averaged sixty-six (66) deaths per year, with 82% of those occurring during competition or training.

Thanks to investigator readers for discovering these reports, and this story in Spanish. Momento Deportivo.

In 2021 and 2022 so far, cardiac disease has not been mentioned. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy was mentioned twice, but those two reports were listed in the “not vax related” list. “Enlarged heart” was only mentioned three times, but there was no indication this was a long-term or recent issue (possibly due to vaccine injury).

The above shows that in prior years, there were 66 deaths per year, but there have been 86 reported in January 2022, so far.

(https://i.imgur.com/7hUjTmr.jpg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/

Quote
(https://i.imgur.com/Du0N81t.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 03:34:14 AM
I love how Tommy quote stats from Islamic sources.  Your kind of folks, eh Tom?

So, tell me Tom, would you maybe expect that a bunch of athletes that have been asked to sit on the bench for nearly 2 years to have a little touch of cardiovascular atrophy?  Might this condition cause a uptick in heart related failure when strenuous exertion suddenly begins?

I mean, you may be right.  I have not gone over all the data collected worldwide (neither has anyone else btw) but it seems to me that someone of your level of education might want a little assurance about what literally anybody can post on the internet is correct before you stand behind it as though it was your first born male (I say male because you haven't shown much respect for women) child's university education (like that will ever be a thing).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 03:43:02 AM
If you wanted to count up the FIFA deaths yourself to verify the graph you could go to the Wikipedia page linked and count up the articles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

I did. Each death is associated with a news article. There were significantly more deaths in 2021. When a player dies on the field it is a major event which generates news articles. It is not an obscure unreported or unpublicized death, and is more ideal of a metric than trying to find out information on less reported populations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 04:31:29 AM
That doesn't address my question(s).

People die.  Sometimes more readily than others.  What is your proof that recent deaths of soccer players were as a result of their being vaccinated for COVID-19?  Just quoting "numbers" is not sufficient.  You have to present an inarguable relationship. Otherwise, more research is required.

What data do you have to reject other possible causes?  Do you have all the raw data and the education to do the required analysis?

Seriously Bob, your sources are VERY suspect.  Your bias had been prominently presented.  You are not credible.  Sorry.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 09, 2022, 04:45:42 AM
As far as I can tell, Ryan Cole is still a doctor and a pathologist, no matter what detractors may criticize him for. As he his a doctor, it means that he is an authority and his opinion has merit.

Since we’re playing that game, your:

As he his a doctor, it means that he is an authority and his opinion has merit.

Here are two Drs that call BS on this whole thing, (of the cardiologist, sports medicine expertise variety. Unlike your Dr. Cole who claimed vax's cause cancer and then went on to misdiagnose 2 patients telling them they had cancer when they didn’t.)

- Jonathan Drezner, MD (UW Medicine Center for Sports Cardiology, Seattle)
- Eugene Chung, MD (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor), chair of the American College of Cardiology’s Sports and Exercise Cardiology Council,

Reports of Sudden Deaths Among Athletes After COVID-19 Vax Are ‘Misinformation’ (https://www.tctmd.com/news/reports-sudden-deaths-among-athletes-after-covid-19-vax-are-misinformation)
The problem with these claims, experts say, is that there’s no evidence conclusively connecting COVID-19 vaccination to any sudden deaths among athletes.

“I think those links are completely false information,” said Jonathan Drezner, MD (UW Medicine Center for Sports Cardiology, Seattle), editor-in-chief of the British Journal of Sports Medicine. “Many of those cases have other diagnosed conditions and even occurred before the pandemic started—so there’s nothing to this.”

Drezner works with the National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research, which aims to monitor all cases of sudden cardiac arrest and death among competitive athletes from middle school up through the professional level, and he said “I am not aware of any COVID-19 vaccine-related athletic death that’s occurred.”

Eugene Chung, MD (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor), chair of the American College of Cardiology’s Sports and Exercise Cardiology Council, echoed that, saying, “The sports cardiology community is a pretty tight-knit community and we talk frequently and many of us have been involved with the cohort studies that have been published over the last year-and-a-half . . . and in those studies, there have been no cases that have been confirmed that have been due to the vaccine.”


So it looks like my two cardiologists trump your one pathologist in the ‘they are authorities and their combined opinions have more merit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 07:59:42 AM
As far as I can tell, Ryan Cole is still a doctor and a pathologist, no matter what detractors may criticize him for. As he his a doctor, it means that he is an authority and his opinion has merit.
And is his opinion the medical consensus?
If not then this is you cherry picking. Again.

You have an agenda so you link to an article which you think confirms that. Except that article doesn't mention vaccines or Covid. Not once. So why are you posting that in this thread? Then after a bit more Googling you find a doctor who thinks what you think. Hooray, another cherry!

As I keep pointing out, you are only interested in a person's "authority" if they are saying what you want to hear. Authorities on, say, the shape of the earth are dismissed by you. I have pointed out to you before that there are a million medical doctors in the US alone. Are you expecting complete unanimity of opinion in a population of a million people? So it's easy to find outliers who will say pretty much whatever you want. Only appealing to their authority of people who are saying what you want and ignoring those who do not is dishonest and fallacious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 11:48:49 AM
Here are two Drs that call BS on this whole thing, (of the cardiologist, sports medicine expertise variety. Unlike your Dr. Cole who claimed vax's cause cancer and then went on to misdiagnose 2 patients telling them they had cancer when they didn’t.)

- Jonathan Drezner, MD (UW Medicine Center for Sports Cardiology, Seattle)
- Eugene Chung, MD (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor), chair of the American College of Cardiology’s Sports and Exercise Cardiology Council,

Reports of Sudden Deaths Among Athletes After COVID-19 Vax Are ‘Misinformation’ (https://www.tctmd.com/news/reports-sudden-deaths-among-athletes-after-covid-19-vax-are-misinformation)
The problem with these claims, experts say, is that there’s no evidence conclusively connecting COVID-19 vaccination to any sudden deaths among athletes.

Actually that article says that "there’s no evidence conclusively connecting COVID-19 vaccination to any sudden deaths among athletes"

They say that they don't have evidence and don't know. That is not an argument that the vaccination is not causing the deaths. If you are declaring that you do not have any evidence either way it means that you are a poor researcher and need to do a better job at getting the science.

Please do continue to cite articles where researchers declare that they don't know. They are totally convincing.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 09, 2022, 12:02:37 PM
Don’t quote rational people saying rational things guys, it’s not fair!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 12:12:55 PM
Dr. Cole does not claim that there is "conclusive" evidence in his interviews and media. He is expressing a concern on the connection and points out that the vaccine was introduced during the time period. The doctors in that link say that there is no "conclusive" evidence. As far as I can see Dr. Cole and those doctors are in agreement on the matter of the existence of conclusive evidence.

If you thought that the article disproved or contradicted something Dr. Cole said, you are incorrect.

If you think that it contradicts Dr. Cole, you would need to point out where he said that there was conclusive evidence. He did not say that, so it is a bunk argument from the start.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 09, 2022, 12:16:03 PM
You can't trust doctors or anything they say.
Remember Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, a leading medical expert censored by the media, she said the vaccine was turning people magnetic. She was harassed by the mainstream medical industry even though they had no conclusive evidence she was wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWHZgzWg-1U


Turns out, it's all bullshit. Dude, I wanted to be magnetized. I got three vaccines and still no magnetic anything.
I was going to be Magneto but turns out the these anti vax freaks were just making shit up. It's like they're just saying what we want to hear.
Can you believe it?

Fortunately, through direct Zetetic observation, I saw the truth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 12:22:23 PM
You can't trust doctors or anything they say.
Remember Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, a leading medical expert censored by the media, she said the vaccine was turning people magnetic. She was harassed by the mainstream medical industry even though they had no conclusive evidence she was wrong.

The concept of experimentation exists. It was possible to prove that claim wrong, but they didn't have the evidence, as you admit yourself. The harassers had no conclusive evidence, which was problematic. They didn't care enough to bother to fund the experiments. They just decided to harass. It demonstrates that the idea that the group think always represents real and conclusive evidence is false.

The situation here is thinking that the claim of not having conclusive evidence on the increase of sudden deaths is evidence that the vaccines were not involved. This is fallacious, to say the least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 12:38:05 PM
Please do continue to cite articles where researchers declare that they don't know. They are totally convincing.  ::)
The first "article" you posted, from the Daily Mail, said the reason for the rise was unknown. The headline called it a "Mystery".
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 09, 2022, 04:10:15 PM
You can't trust doctors or anything they say.
Remember Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, a leading medical expert censored by the media, she said the vaccine was turning people magnetic. She was harassed by the mainstream medical industry even though they had no conclusive evidence she was wrong.

The concept of experimentation exists. It was possible to prove that claim wrong, but they didn't have the evidence, as you admit yourself. The harassers had no conclusive evidence, which was problematic. They didn't care enough to bother to fund the experiments.

Did this "experiment" require funding? Is this not conclusive? (From the same hearing):

(https://i.imgur.com/2gOLoHT.gif)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 04:43:25 PM
Yeah, that's not conclusive evidence at all that this phenomenon does not exist.

(https://i.ibb.co/vQ9XMnk/magnet-compress-2.gif)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wQNswGCOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wQNswGCOE)

Many, many comments:

(https://i.imgur.com/rVlT6uy.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/dYdeNYe.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/QieO2yG.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/BQ97vji.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/fOThZsu.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sPBkN3v.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/nhAZcy3.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Y9q0Szo.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/QXKiGbJ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/iBAArJE.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 09, 2022, 04:49:49 PM
Tom Bishop: you can only trust a doctor’s opinions because he has the necessary medical background

Also Tom Bishop: look as these YouTube comments!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Those YouTube comments are amateur reports of people doing experiments. There are seemingly thousands of videos of people reporting this. This does not happen with sweaty skin:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Odhn7-uia2E

I guess many people, including old women, just decided to lie about the same thing and make fake videos for some reason. Is that what you're claiming?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 09, 2022, 05:18:10 PM
Those YouTube comments are amateur reports of people doing experiments. There are seemingly thousands of videos of people reporting this. This does not happen with sweaty skin:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Odhn7-uia2E

I guess many people, including old women, just decided to lie about the same thing and make fake videos for some reason. Is that what you're claiming?

Amazing!
But maybe they should use something like another magnet?  You know, something with a low surface tension so it won't stick to the skin.

Or even better: lift a paperclip with their finger.

Seriously, this is just sad.  Its like none of you stuck spoons to your nose as a kid...

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 05:35:17 PM
I don't think arms have noses to hold spoons on. But even in the spoon-on-the-nose example, people know exactly what they are doing when performing it. They would know that it is a trick and that it is false that the spoon is actually attracted to their nose.

It seems that you are claiming that many people are spontaneously lying and performing tricks on this. This is not conclusive evidence that the claims are false, as stack had suggested to exist. That is just your own baseless claim that a lady with two YouTube videos on her account about her skiing with her friends and one about her whistling decided to lie about this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 09, 2022, 05:49:08 PM
I don't think arms have noses to hold spoons on. But even in the spoon-on-the-nose example, people know exactly what they are doing when performing it. They would know that it is a trick and that it is false that the spoon is actually attracted to their nose.

It seems that you are claiming that many people are spontaneously lying and performing tricks on this. This is not conclusive evidence that the claims are false, as stack had suggested to exist. That is just your own baseless claim that a lady with two YouTube videos on her account about her skiing with her friends and one about her whistling decided to lie about this.

*Sigh* its not a trick.
The friction of the metal and skin means it doesn't slide easily and can appear 'stuck'.  This will work with actual silver as well, which isn't magnetic.
Or a penny, which also isn't.

Its physics.
Also, a magnetic field powerful enough to hold a spoon to your skin should be measurable and definitely mess up a compass.  Maybe try that?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 09, 2022, 05:59:59 PM
This is not conclusive evidence that the claims are false, as stack had suggested to exist. That is just your own baseless claim that a lady with two YouTube videos on her account about her skiing with her friends and one about her whistling decided to lie about this.

How come it doesn't work for me or anyone I know?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 06:01:45 PM
Tom Bishop: you can only trust a doctor’s opinions because he has the necessary medical background

Also Tom Bishop: look as these YouTube comments!
Well, also

Tom Bishop: you can only trust a doctor’s opinions because he has the necessary medical background

Everyone: Here’s a load of doctors calling out that dude’s bullshit.

Tom Bishop: I didn’t mean those, you can’t trust them. I meant the one who is saying what I want to believe.

How d’ya like them cherries?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 09, 2022, 06:04:00 PM
https://youtu.be/Mje3u_1eS2w
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 06:12:32 PM
He describes that the shape of his arm muscle and crook of his elbow allows the spoon's shape to rest on it. He describes that it is a careful balancing act several times and knows that he is performing a trick. He would know that the claim that the spoon is attracted to his arm would be false.

Once again, your claim is that these people are liars who are playing tricks.

How come it doesn't work for me or anyone I know?

You probably should have performed a systematic test on all vaccine brands, and multiple batches to account for them changing the formula when this was discovered. You should have also preferably tested this when it was first injected and not a year after the fact.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 09, 2022, 06:17:22 PM
He describes that the shape of his arm muscle muscle allows the spoon's shape to rest on it. He describes that it is a balancing act several times and knows that he is performing a trick. He would know that the claim that the spoon is attracted to his arm would be false.

Once again, your claim is that these people are liars who are playing tricks.

Yep.
Or dumb.  I mean, that one woman kept having issues.

But you claim thousands of people are lying to thr world daily, so not sure why this would be an issue for you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 06:38:47 PM
Compilation of Magnets Sticking to Covid Injection Site - https://www.bitchute.com/video/ckuA6w9r13zD/

All throughout we see people claiming that magnets stick to them. Numerous people claiming the only place there is resistance is where they got the jab.

0:01 - Woman holding magnet over her arm - "I could feel the pull"

8:38 - Woman passes magnet over her injection site - "I can feel the pull"

11:15 - Man passes Metal Detector over his arm and hears beeping, claiming that it is detecting metal.

13:53 - The author of the video shows VARS reports of hundreds of people claiming that they experienced a "metallic taste" after being injected with the vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 09, 2022, 06:43:32 PM
Compilation of Magnets Sticking to Covid Injection Site - https://www.bitchute.com/video/ckuA6w9r13zD/

All throughout we see people claiming that magnets stick to them. Numerous people claiming the only place there is resistance is where they got the jab.

0:01 - Woman holding magnet over her arm - "I could feel the pull"

8:38 - Woman passes magnet over her injection site - "I can feel the pull"

11:15 - Man passes Metal Detector over his arm and hears beeping, claiming that it is detecting metal.

13:53 - The author of the video shows VARS reports of hundreds of people claiming that they experienced a "metallic taste" after being injected with the vaccine.

0:01 - unverifiable
8:38 - unverifiable
11:15 - easily faked
13:53 - irrelevant
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 09, 2022, 06:57:39 PM
He said athletes, not only soccer players.
actually, he said, "...a couple of athletes per month used to die on the football field or on the soccer pitch. Now we're getting hundreds each month dying."

i do not believe this at all. cite a source. even if he's talking about all athletes everywhere, i'm extremely skeptical that hundreds of them are dropping dead of heart attacks while playing each month. hilariously, the other "sources" you cite do not back up this claim.

"trust me, i'm a doctor" is not evidence of anything. and if your source is willing to lie and simply make up numbers, then i'm not sure why i should trust anything else he has to say.

a couple of bar graphs
my brother in christ, this is not analysis. it's just a couple of bar graphs — at least one of which was made by a source that is outright lying about its own data (ha ha should be called badsciencing amirite).

there is no way people are lying on youtube
lol what
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 06:58:52 PM
How the utter fuck would a vaccine make you magnetic? Honestly, the shit some people believe…
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 07:01:25 PM
Numerous people claiming that they feel a pull when passing magnet over, that the magnet only sticks to one spot, that it is detectable by a metal detector, is actually evidence. People have claimed that this phenomenon exists and have videotaped themselves performing the experiment in multiple ways.

Claiming that they are liars is not a form of evidence at all.

Nor is the sentiment of "how would a vaccine make you magnetic?" This is also not a form of evidence.

It appears that you guys are running low on actual evidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 07:16:54 PM
Tom has gone full loop.

I've been vaccinated 3 times for COVID-19.  Magnets do not stick to my shoulder where I was vaccinated.

But sometimes I can't detach myself from the fridge.  I'm fairly sure that's because there is food and beer in there though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 07:22:05 PM
i'm extremely skeptical

That is nice, but being skeptical is not a form of evidence.

Tom has gone full loop.

I've been vaccinated 3 times for COVID-19.  Magnets do not stick to my shoulder where I was vaccinated.

But sometimes I can't detach myself from the fridge.  I'm fairly sure that's because there is food and beer in there though.

We can see that you didn't claim to test yourself when you were first vaccinated. You are expecting the effect to be perpetual, or that all brands and batches were affected, or that they are still affected, which was not claimed. If you go through the media the reception was mixed and some people claim that they did not experience this.

None of it does anything to disprove the claims given.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 09, 2022, 07:38:31 PM
i'm extremely skeptical

That is nice, but being skeptical is not a form of evidence.

lol skepticism is the default position fam. it is your burden to prove the claims you're making are true. extraordinary claims (i.e., vaccines are causing people to drop dead) require extraordinary evidence. your evidence amounts to a wikipedia page about soccer and a couple of sources who outright lie about their own data.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 07:40:06 PM
Numerous people claiming that they feel a pull when passing magnet over, that the magnet only sticks to one spot, that it is detectable by a metal detector, is actually evidence.
Sure. But as I have patiently explained to you multiple times, not all evidence is created equal. And how credible you find evidence or experts depends entirely on whether it confirms your opinions or worldview. It’s not an honest way of enquiring.

Quote
Nor is the sentiment of "how would a vaccine make you magnetic?" This is also not a form of evidence.

It is not intended to be. But if I said that when I had the vaccine I was able to fly - by your logic that is evidence, but it would be pretty reasonable to ask how that would work. What ingredient in the vaccine would do what in the body to make it magnetic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
It is not intended to be.

So you admit that you are responding to evidence with non-evidence. Nothing more needs to be said here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 08:02:15 PM
A valid response to evidence is to consider how credible it is. If you have no explanation for how a vaccine could cause someone to become magnetic then you are admitting the evidence is not credible.
Doesn’t your Wiki say something about if you don’t understand something from first principles then you shouldn’t believe it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 08:26:44 PM
Quote from: Gary Green
lol skepticism is the default position fam.

Incorrect. Siding with the existing evidence is the default position.

People are not skeptical of protractors by default. There is evidence that protractors work to some 99.x% accuracy of the tool.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
A valid response to evidence is to consider how credible it is.

In a court of law to discredit someone's evidence you need to produce contradicting evidence showing the evidence produced to be false. A prosecutor claiming that it could be false because "me is skeptical" won't cut it and the person walks free. If they used that argument they would also be reprimanded.

Skepticism is simply invalid in many situations. It's only really a valid response if there is no evidence at all.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Doesn’t your Wiki say something about if you don’t understand something from first principles then you shouldn’t believe it?

That sentence is clearly about approaching how phenomena work. The content given in this magnet subject was not about how it works, however. The evidence is that it occurs. You are conflicting an empirical phenomena with the necessity of a theory. It works if the mechanism is unknown or known.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 09, 2022, 08:45:05 PM
You probably should have performed a systematic test on all vaccine brands, and multiple batches to account for them changing the formula when this was discovered. You should have also preferably tested this when it was first injected and not a year after the fact.

Hold on a second here. You're telling me that to truly test this I would need to:

- systematically test on all vaccine brands
- multiple batches to account for them changing the formula when this was discovered (particularly hilarious, btw)
- tested this when it was first injected and not a year after the fact (how do you know when I tested?)

So I need to do all of these things to verify my findings, but all of your references don't? How does that work? Why do I have to follow the above, but your people don't?

Where's your experimentation that follows:

- systematically test on all vaccine brands
- multiple batches to account for them changing the formula when this was discovered
- tested this when it was first injected and not a year after the fact
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 09, 2022, 09:06:25 PM
Quote from: stack
So I need to do all of these things to verify my findings, but all of your references don't? How does that work? Why do I have to follow the above, but your people don't?

Simply because they are making a positive claim and providing positive evidence that this happened to them. They did make an effort to provide evidence.

You are making a negative claim, that this phenomena did not work on them and that their claims are false, so your burden is much higher to prove that they didn't get injected with a vaccine with magnetic properties. It is possible to prove a negative, but it is much harder to do. It is far easier to prove a positive.

You seem to want to do nothing at all. But there are plenty of things you can do in your effort:

- You could find their chatroom where they admit to an internet hoax to gull the public with magic tricks and false claims

- You can analyze their videos and look for the double-sided sticky tape on the objects

- You can show that one of these people were brought into a laboratory for testing

- You can interview their friends and family and find that the claims were false

- You can investigate and see if multiple people on different unrelated platforms seem to be making this claim

All of this is possible, but you want to do nothing at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 09, 2022, 09:09:22 PM
Holy crap!

Tom's right!

I'm sticking keys and coins all over myself.

The vaccine worked! I am magnetic!

My time has come! I will destroy my enemies with my magnetic power!

Oh shit they're falling off...
Damn...

Oh wait... if you lick them they really stick. Saliva obviously increases the magnetic power.

I'll make a YouTube video of it. Then these non-magnetic losers will fear me!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2022, 09:14:44 PM
I’ll just leave this here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/57207134
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 09, 2022, 09:45:20 PM
Quote from: stack
So I need to do all of these things to verify my findings, but all of your references don't? How does that work? Why do I have to follow the above, but your people don't?

Simply because they are making a positive claim and providing positive evidence that this happened to them. They did make an effort to provide evidence.

You are making a negative claim, that this phenomena did not work on them and that their claims are false, so your burden is much higher to prove that they didn't get injected with a vaccine with magnetic properties. It is possible to prove a negative, but it is much harder to do. It is far easier to prove a positive.

You missed a whole step. Vax's are not magnetic. Because, it's insane to think otherwise. There's nothing in EA's, test data, anywhere prior to rollout that anything became magnetic.

Then you trot out some knuckleheads who make the claim that vaxs are magnetic. So, that being the claim, then we would need some experimental proof following your criteria:

- systematically test on all vaccine brands
- multiple batches to account for them changing the formula when this was discovered
- tested this when it was first injected and not a year after the fact

Same goes for your soccer players dying en masse on pitches all over the world. You need to provide for each:

- Was an individual vaxed?
- When were they vaxed?
- Which vax did they get?
- Did they have any prior issues with heart disease? Genetic predisposition or otherwise

I mean, even at the outset, how can you make a claim that vax's are killing football players without even knowing if they were vaxed or not? You're making zero logical sense.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 09, 2022, 11:00:43 PM
None of it does anything to disprove the claims given.
You are right, of course.  But the things everyone has presented do go to show how ridiculous the claims are.

I can claim anything.  I can claim I have a 11" dick, and that's why I'm known as the moose.  Nothing you can post here can disprove that claim.  So, I don't think anyone is trying to disprove you claims, just show how ridiculous they are.

I did see the stuff the put into my shoulder.  It was a light amber clear fluid.  Can you think of  a light amber clear fluid that is magnetic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 02:13:36 AM
Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all. You have no evidence that this is not occurring in people and your goal is to reject evidence that it is occurring in people. Not a good look.

There is clearly something magnetic-related happening to this person who took the vaccine:

Full Video: https://savetiknowm.org/u/som_alto/6987777724454587649

(https://i.ibb.co/Tqm7qyr/magnet10-opti.gif)

Translated caption: "Reaction after vaccination # magnet # injection"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 10, 2022, 02:34:10 AM
So you're now saying that the non-MRNA Sputnik vaccine is magnetic? Well I'm glad we don't have that one in the US. Thanks for the PSA.

And since we're operating according to your new rules of evidence, I found a full disk image of a globe earth from the Russian geostationary satellite, Electro-L:

(https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/capital-weather-gang/201205/images/definitive-earth.jpg?uuid=jkBa3puXEeGbS3r1dHdVDg)

I guess that resolves the debate, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 10, 2022, 02:37:47 AM
There is clearly something magnetic-related happening to this person who took the vaccine:

Full Video: https://savetiknowm.org/u/som_alto/6987777724454587649

(https://i.ibb.co/Tqm7qyr/magnet10-opti.gif)

Translated caption: "Reaction after vaccination # magnet # injection"
Could it possibly be that a small bit of the the tip of the needle broke off, or some small metal sliver of something or other?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 10, 2022, 02:40:13 AM
Incredulity does not enter into it when it unanimous Tom.  It becomes a matter of presenting something credible.  I'm not saying people did not stick magnets to their shoulders, nor will I say your latest video does not show something that looks like a magnetic material is below the skin.  However, two comments.

1) This latest video is not proof there is a small piece of iron (or other magnetic material) below the skin.  It could be, but maybe not (remember why you guy's reject videos and pictures).  It's certainly not proof this person was even vaccinated let alone had become magnetic as a result.

2) You have not given anything other than un-reliable (according to TFES) videos and pictures as evidence.  Can you come up with anything more solid?  Like a component of any COVID-19 vaccine that has, or could have, magnetic properties?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 03:00:40 AM
It's not only in Russia; the people in this "Covid Vaccine Magnet Challenge" video from California have their arms pretty vertical.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 10, 2022, 05:12:29 AM
It's not only in Russia; the people in this "Covid Vaccine Magnet Challenge" video from California have their arms pretty vertical.

So 5 out of every 9 people become magnetic?

Why did they only put the magnets on the injection site? Is the claim now that only the injection site is 'sticky'?

And to bill's point, what ingredients in each of the various vaccines are magnetic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 10, 2022, 05:51:05 AM
It's not only in Russia; the people in this "Covid Vaccine Magnet Challenge" video from California have their arms pretty vertical.

So 5 out of every 9 people become magnetic?

Why did they only put the magnets on the injection site? Is the claim now that only the injection site is 'sticky'?

And to bill's point, what ingredients in each of the various vaccines are magnetic?

Also why the surface?  The needle is pretty deep in the muscle layer.  So what gets deposited on the surface?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 10, 2022, 08:47:23 AM
Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument.
Thanks for my new sig :). Presumably you'll be removing the Occam's Razor Wiki page now, which is a box set of argument from incredulity.

How credulous one finds something is subjective, but I'd suggest that there are more objective measures, like how many people find something plausible or whether any obvious mechanism can be understood between claimed cause and effect. If pretty much everyone who knows what they're talking about is calling bullshit on something then that is not irrelevant. And if there's no obvious casual link between the claimed effect and cause then that is not irrelevant either. And that's the difference between the Occam's Razor Wiki nonsense (rockets go really fast, that can't be right!) and this.

If I said that after a vaccine my arm hurt a bit then I'd suggest that most people would find that credible - there's a clear cause and effect there, I just had a needle stuck in my arm. Ouchie. If I said that after a vaccine I had the ability to fly then most people would not find that credible - famously, humans can't fly and there's no obvious reason a vaccine would give one that ability.
This magnetic stuff is somewhere in between those but I'd suggest towards the latter. There's no obvious reason that having a vaccine would cause one to become magnetic. Off the top of my head - maybe there's some magnetic substance in the vaccine which would cause the claimed effect. But

1) There isn't
2) Any metallic elements there are would be trace at best.

But OK, I've been vaccinated so I had a go and holy shit, I'm Magneto!:

(https://i.ibb.co/Ry46zZ1/magneto.jpg)
(yes yes, I have a hairy arm. apologies for being so manly)

There are only a few minor issues with this.
1) I haven't had a vaccine for over a year, unless the claim is that this magnetism is permanent.
2) Those coins aren't magnetic.
3) That isn't the arm I had the vaccine in.

Apart from that, that's all very compelling evidence. The BBC link I posted above explains what's going on - tl;dr friction and other slight stickiness on the skin
As always, the credibility you give to "evidence" depends entirely on whether that evidence confirms what you want to believe.
And, as always, you probably don't believe any of this and are either trolling or wasting everyone's time or both.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 03:25:28 PM
Where is your evidence? Claiming a possibility is not evidence.

A group in Europe conducted a study of this on Luxembourgers last year:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/study-electromagnetism-vaccinated-persons-luxembourg/5749516

Quote
Only 30 vaccinated and 30 unvaccinated people were finally interviewed while the target was to interview 100 for the first group and 100 for the second. The condition of gender distribution was met. In each group, 15 women and 15 men were interviewed.

In the non-vaccinated group, out of the 30 individuals interviewed, the number of people showing attraction to the magnet was 0 (zero).

Therefore the experiment ended there for this group.

In the vaccinated group, on the other hand, 29 of the 30 individuals interviewed showed attraction to the magnet. That is, the magnet adhered to their skin without difficulty.

Of these same 29 individuals, 22 have the magnet adhering to only one shoulder and only to the injection area. These 22 individuals are those who received only one injection. The other 7 people in this same group have the magnet adhering on both shoulders.

In this group, known as the group of vaccinated people living or working in Luxembourg, it appears that:
- 17 received at least one injection from Pfizer
- 7 received at least one injection from Astra Zeneca
- 3 received at least one injection from the Moderna laboratory
- 3 received the single injection from Johnson & Johnson
- 6 received both Pfizer injections
- 1 received the 2 injections from Astra Zeneca
- 1 received the 2 injections from Moderna
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 10, 2022, 03:37:03 PM
Where is your evidence? Claiming a possibility is not evidence.

A group in Europe conducted a study of this on Luxembourgers last year:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/study-electromagnetism-vaccinated-persons-luxembourg/5749516

Quote
Only 30 vaccinated and 30 unvaccinated people were finally interviewed while the target was to interview 100 for the first group and 100 for the second. The condition of gender distribution was met. In each group, 15 women and 15 men were interviewed.

In the non-vaccinated group, out of the 30 individuals interviewed, the number of people showing attraction to the magnet was 0 (zero).

Therefore the experiment ended there for this group.

In the vaccinated group, on the other hand, 29 of the 30 individuals interviewed showed attraction to the magnet. That is, the magnet adhered to their skin without difficulty.

Of these same 29 individuals, 22 have the magnet adhering to only one shoulder and only to the injection area. These 22 individuals are those who received only one injection. The other 7 people in this same group have the magnet adhering on both shoulders.

In this group, known as the group of vaccinated people living or working in Luxembourg, it appears that:
- 17 received at least one injection from Pfizer
- 7 received at least one injection from Astra Zeneca
- 3 received at least one injection from the Moderna laboratory
- 3 received the single injection from Johnson & Johnson
- 6 received both Pfizer injections
- 1 received the 2 injections from Astra Zeneca
- 1 received the 2 injections from Moderna

There are sources of error that aren’t addressed in this. There is nothing quantifiable about the magnetic field they supposedly measured. How this can be taken seriously is beyond me.

It’s a group that also pushes homeopathy, 5G conspiracies and has a doctor that tried to link autism to vaccination.

It’s a pile of shit steamier than Tom’s arguements in the recent days.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 03:38:02 PM
There are sources of error that aren’t addressed in this. There is nothing quantifiable about the magnetic field they supposedly measured. How this can be taken seriously is beyond me.

It’s a group that also pushes homeopathy, 5G conspiracies and has a doctor that tried to link autism to vaccination.

It’s a pile of shit steamier than Tom’s arguements in the recent days.

I asked you guys for evidence and you, again, merely claimed that the evidence you saw was false, without evidence for that either. I also highly doubt that a group called European Forum for Vaccine Vigilance is studying 5G or homeopathy.

Where is your evidence? It certainly seems like anyone could have conducted these types of trials and tests when people started taking the vaccines last year. Where is the actual evidence you are standing on in support of your position that no one has become magnetized by the Covid vaccines?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 10, 2022, 03:45:05 PM
There are sources of error that aren’t addressed in this. There is nothing quantifiable about the magnetic field they supposedly measured. How this can be taken seriously is beyond me.

It’s a group that also pushes homeopathy, 5G conspiracies and has a doctor that tried to link autism to vaccination.

It’s a pile of shit steamier than Tom’s arguements in the recent days.

I asked you guys for evidence and you, again, merely claimed that the evidence you saw was false, without evidence for that either. I also highly doubt that a group called European Forum for Vaccine Vigilance is studying 5G or homeopathy.

Where is your evidence?

Evidence for a lack of magnetism in vaccinated people? Why, it’s all around you, just look out your window. I was not magnetic after getting vaccinated. Neither was anyone else I’ve talked to. Not one. So, in your view, that’s evidence of hundreds of people who were not magnetic.

There were no reports of any magnetism in any of the clinical trials for the vaccine either. There is more evidence.

I accept your apology.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
That is not evidence that people have never been magnetized by the vaccine. You need to find one or more people who claim to have been magnetized, or scout to find people who are unknowingly magnetized, and perform tests on them, as has been shown numerous times in recent pages on this thread.

Again, you do not have evidence that people have not been magnetized by the vaccine. You have no evidence for this position. This position relies on assumptions and faith, and does nothing except try to reject evidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 10, 2022, 03:56:09 PM
That is not evidence that it is false that people have been magnetized. You need to fine one who claims to have been magnetized, or find one who is magnetized, and perform tests on them, as has been shown numerous times in recent pages on this thread.

Again, you do not actually have evidence that people have not been magnetized by the vaccine. You have no evidence for this position.

I just told I was not magnetized by this vaccine. That’s evidence according to you. No one I know was magnetized by this vaccine. That’s evidence according to you.  No one in the large clinical trials was magnetized. That’s evidence according to you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
I don't have bone cancer and I don't know anyone who has bone cancer. Wow, I just disproved bone cancer with Rama Set's method of science research.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 10, 2022, 04:14:25 PM
That is not evidence that people have never been magnetized by the vaccine.
Provided above in the BBC link where an expert in the field explains why that is not possible.
I have also shown how magnetic my arm is. In the wrong arm. With coins that aren't magnetic. Again, the BBC video explains that too.
The evidence is - there is no mechanism by which a vaccine could cause someone to become negative, some of the "evidence" of magnetism is easily reproduceable with non-magnetic objects and the only sources showing evidence for magnetism are known quacks, deluded people or liars - the BBC deals with that too, one woman who posted a fake video as a joke, started to "go viral", ironically, and took it down as she hadn't intended to mislead.

In brief: Not all evidence is created equal. You only consider evidence credible if it backs up your position. If you do that then you can "prove" any ridiculous claim.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 10, 2022, 04:24:14 PM
Evidence for something that does not exist?  Are you serious?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 10, 2022, 04:43:16 PM
I don't have bone cancer and I don't know anyone who has bone cancer. Wow, I just disproved bone cancer with Rama Set's method of science research.

It's a fake study from a Russian propaganda website.
I know hundreds of people who are vaccinated and none of them experienced any magnetism whatsoever.

You want us to prove that magnetism in vaccines doesn't exist. You can't prove that it does exist. I challenge you to reproduce the results in that fake study. If the statistics shown in that Russian propaganda were correct, I would know dozens of magnetic people.

American coins are non ferrous and specifically designed to not be magnetic. Anybody doing the trick with American coins is bullshit.

Btw.  I know lots of people who had all kinds of cancers. Many of them died.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 05:08:46 PM
The evidence is - there is no mechanism by which a vaccine could cause someone to become negative, some of the "evidence" of magnetism is easily reproduceable with non-magnetic objects and the only sources showing evidence for magnetism are known quacks, deluded people or liars - the BBC deals with that too, one woman who posted a fake video as a joke, started to "go viral", ironically, and took it down as she hadn't intended to mislead.

In brief: Not all evidence is created equal. You only consider evidence credible if it backs up your position. If you do that then you can "prove" any ridiculous claim.

Claiming that you are ignorant of the underlying mechanism is not evidence that the phenomenon does not exist. That is evidence that you are ignorant of the mechanism.

Nor is someone who stuck something on as a joke evidence that this phenomenon does not exist. It appears that you don't know what evidence is at all.

Here a airport worker provided a video showing that a hand-held metal detector activated on someone who had the Covid vaccine.

https://twitter.com/babibelle33/status/1405596970333265921

Translated: "In Italy, the metal detector used by an airport security guard is activated on the arm of a person who has been injected with the experimental covid"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 10, 2022, 05:29:48 PM
My favorite part of the "study":

"The survey is stopped for reasons of conscience and morals because the investigator is no longer able to cope with the helplessness of people whose faces become petrified when they realise that they have been injected with a substance of which they know nothing."

Yeah, seems totally legit.

Not to mention the publishing site, The Centre for Research on Globalization...

"The platform, Global Research, features a Canadian domain name and offers an ever-expanding collection of conspiracy theories, such as the myth that the 9/11 attacks and COVID-19 pandemic were both planned in order to control the population. The website also hosts articles experts have attributed to a Russian spy agency."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/russian-disinformation-global-research-website-1.5767208

Definitely a new low in terms of "evidence".
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 05:37:51 PM
That's not actually evidence that it's false.

So you do not have evidence that the study or videos are fake at all. You don't have evidence showing that these results and videos are false.

You have no evidence that it is fake in your favor and only declarations that all evidence is fake. Is that right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 10, 2022, 06:13:41 PM
I don't have bone cancer and I don't know anyone who has bone cancer. Wow, I just disproved bone cancer with Rama Set's method of science research.

Welp. It’s the arguement you used for proving magnetism. “These people say they are magnetic so it’s evidence”. You also ignore the extremely relevant clinical trials, but hey ho. You can’t troll if you intellectually honest, can you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 10, 2022, 06:15:20 PM
That's not actually evidence that it's false.

So you do not have evidence that the study or videos are fake at all. You don't have evidence showing that these results and videos are false.

You have no evidence that it is fake in your favor and only declarations that all evidence is fake. Is that right?

No, it’s not. You should stop ignoring the things like clinical studies with a complete absence of magnetism, or the nurse who claimed to be magnetic and then utterly failed to demonstrate it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 10, 2022, 06:20:09 PM
That's not actually evidence that it's false.

So you do not have evidence that the study or videos are fake at all. You don't have evidence showing that these results and videos are false.

You have no evidence that it is fake in your favor and only declarations that all evidence is fake. Is that right?

You have no evidence the videos are real and only declarations that the evidence is real. Is that right?

What about all these time travelers from the future that we have on YouTube? One guy even has an actual photo of the future. It looks like a screencap from The Jetsons but still.
Do you believe them all to be real?

You do understand that a lot of people put a lot of fake ass crap on YouTube right?  They get off to fooling gullible rubes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 10, 2022, 06:22:41 PM
That's not actually evidence that it's false.

So you do not have evidence that the study or videos are fake at all. You don't have evidence showing that these results and videos are false.

Where did I say your latest was false? Just pointing out the bias and dubiousness when a "study" says something like this:

"Here we will not answer for the responsibility of each party, but it is certain that if paramagnetic nanoparticles (nanocarriers or magnetic beads) have entered the composition of these so-called vaccines, it is a safe bet that we will very quickly hear about an unprecedented health disaster."

And still my favorite, "The survey is stopped for reasons of conscience and morals because the investigator is no longer able to cope with the helplessness of people whose faces become petrified when they realise that they have been injected with a substance of which they know nothing."

You have no evidence that it is fake in your favor and only declarations that all evidence is fake. Is that right?

No, it's not right. I don't have any evidence that the "study" is fake. Only things like the above, it's source, etc., that certainly lend that it's not even remotely credible.

So you're admitting that the Russian satellite image of a full disk globe earth I posted is not fake because you have no evidence that it's fake? Therefore it is true? Is that how this works now?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 06:28:42 PM
Here is another one to debunk. In August of last year Japan found that Moderna vaccines were contaminated with a substance that reacts to magnets and recalled 1.63 million doses.

The Epoch Times - https://archive.ph/iGtof

' Japan announced on Aug. 26 that it’s suspending the use of about 1.63 million doses of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine due to reports of contamination.

“It’s a substance that reacts to magnets … it could be metal,” a ministry official reportedly said, according to Nikkei Asia. '
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 10, 2022, 06:40:42 PM
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2021/1.6m-Moderna-doses-withdrawn-in-Japan-over-contamination

Or just link the real article instead of some archive site.

And do I really need to point out that metal particals can come from anywhere and do not make people magnetic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 10, 2022, 06:42:28 PM
Here is another one to debunk. In August of last year Japan found that Moderna vaccines were contaminated with a substance that reacts to magnets and recalled 1.63 million doses.

The Epoch Times - https://archive.ph/iGtof

' Japan announced on Aug. 26 that it’s suspending the use of about 1.63 million doses of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine due to reports of contamination.

“It’s a substance that reacts to magnets … it could be metal,” a ministry official reportedly said, according to Nikkei Asia. '

G-g-gish gallop!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 06:46:54 PM
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2021/1.6m-Moderna-doses-withdrawn-in-Japan-over-contamination

Or just link the real article instead of some archive site.

And do I really need to point out that metal particals can come from anywhere and do not make people magnetic?

Unless you have some kind of argument that you are not the particles that are injected into you, I'm not sure what you are talking about. If you inject magnetic elements into your tissue it does make you magnetic. The particles are magnetic. It may disperse depending on how the particles are able to circulate.

This person might have something magnetic under their skin that was injected. It's a video of something lifting out of the skin like we saw on the last page:

https://153news.net/watch_video.php?v=KGGMORMYN69R

(https://i.imgur.com/AFsJn5l.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 10, 2022, 07:03:08 PM
What's your evidence that the 11.9 billion doses that have been administered worldwide contain stainless steel particles from a production machinery problem?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2022, 07:09:37 PM
What's your evidence that the 11.9 billion doses that have been administered worldwide contain stainless steel particles from a production machinery problem?

Actually I did not provide videos of billions of people, and nor did I make that claim. I suggested that some people have been magnetized. A few people here appeared very upset with that idea, repeatedly calling all media suggesting so to be fake.

It appears that you are conceding that some people have been injected with magnetic material. You originally argued that it was insane to believe the claims of a magnetic reaction and are now attempting to move the goal post to demand demonstration that billions of people have been magnetized.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 10, 2022, 07:37:30 PM
What Tom and people like him don't understand is how incredibly easy it is to fake a YouTube video like that. That's why you only see this phenomenon in YouTube videos and not in actual medical data.

In fact, I might do a magnetism video, post it online and see how many idiots I can get to believe it.

I'm going to laugh and laugh. Just the same way the people who made these videos are laughing.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 10, 2022, 08:56:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is the harm in becoming magnetized?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 10, 2022, 09:04:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is the harm in becoming magnetized?
You attract polar opposites.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 10, 2022, 09:35:25 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is the harm in becoming magnetized?

I don't see any harm. I totally want to get magnetized.
Imagine freaking out your friends.

Dude! Imagine impressing the ladies. You could get so much poontang, awesome.

I want to have some cool science fiction kind of name. Magneto's already taken so I'm thinking Magnetaur.

Yes....

The Rise of Magnetaur

I like it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
You need to find one or more people who claim to have been magnetized, or scout to find people who are unknowingly magnetized, and perform tests on them, as has been shown numerous times in recent pages on this thread.

Why can't you do this? Why can't you formulate an experiment to actively test if people are "magnetic" and execute that experiment?

It strikes me that all that's needed is a tub of iron filings and a piece of paper. Scatter the iron filings on the paper and have the person move a body part under the paper. If the iron filings move around where the body part does, then you have some evidence to support your hypothesis.

If you can't get subjects to agree to submit to this...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 10, 2022, 11:29:36 PM
What's your evidence that the 11.9 billion doses that have been administered worldwide contain stainless steel particles from a production machinery problem?

Actually I did not provide videos of billions of people, and nor did I make that claim. I suggested that some people have been magnetized. A few people here appeared very upset with that idea, repeatedly calling all media suggesting so to be fake.

It appears that you are conceding that some people have been injected with magnetic material. You originally argued that it was insane to believe the claims of a magnetic reaction and are now attempting to move the goal post to demand demonstration that billions of people have been magnetized.

You've suggested that some people have been "magnetized". Who has been "magnetized"? The Moderna incident was a production failure by Rovi Labs in Spain. Minute particles of stainless steel from a machine that caps the vials were found in some batches of Moderna in Japan. Stainless steel is magnetic. But no one said humans were "magnetized".

When I take a daily iron supplement pill am I "magnetized"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2022, 01:00:38 AM
You've suggested that some people have been "magnetized". Who has been "magnetized"? The Moderna incident was a production failure by Rovi Labs in Spain. Minute particles of stainless steel from a machine that caps the vials were found in some batches of Moderna in Japan. Stainless steel is magnetic. But no one said humans were "magnetized".

When I take a daily iron supplement pill am I "magnetized"?

That information largely comes from the company trying to excuse away its failures. Not the best source. Are you asserting that they didn't know about the magnetic material in the vaccine, did not control it or regulate it, yet knows how much was placed in each vaccine?

Spain and certain places in Europe seem to have a particular problem with magnetism on this subject. This family father claims in this video to have gotten his vaccine just shortly prior, and we can see his family fascinated with his magnetic arm.

https://twitter.com/RazzleD99162445/status/1535427110323429377
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 11, 2022, 01:46:38 AM
Spain and certain places in Europe seem to have a particular problem with magnetism on this subject. This family father claims in this video to have gotten his vaccine just 30 minutes prior, and we can see his family fascinated with his magnetic arm.
Tom, would you please care to explain why this magnetism issue is a bad thing?  What health problems have been found from becoming magnetic?  By the way, you do realize that the human body naturally contains 3-4 grams of iron in red blood cells, muscles and various other tissues, don't you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 11, 2022, 02:25:50 AM
You've suggested that some people have been "magnetized". Who has been "magnetized"? The Moderna incident was a production failure by Rovi Labs in Spain. Minute particles of stainless steel from a machine that caps the vials were found in some batches of Moderna in Japan. Stainless steel is magnetic. But no one said humans were "magnetized".

When I take a daily iron supplement pill am I "magnetized"?

That information largely comes from the company trying to excuse away its failures. Not the best source.

Says the guy who cited a "study" from a group spreading 5G and vaccine autism lies.

Quote
Are you asserting that they didn't know about the magnetic material in the vaccine, did not control it or regulate it, yet knows how much was placed in each vaccine?

Amazingly, these things can be tested after discovering the error.  Truly an age of wonders.

Quote
Spain and certain places in Europe seem to have a particular problem with magnetism on this subject. This family father claims in this video to have gotten his vaccine just shortly prior, and we can see his family fascinated with his magnetic arm.

Oh wow, a single anecdote means a region of millions has a "particular problem", whatever that means, with magnetism.  Surely Magneto will soon rise up and declare the supremacy of Homo Superior.  This summer, evil eats chorizo.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 11, 2022, 05:11:02 AM
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2021/1.6m-Moderna-doses-withdrawn-in-Japan-over-contamination

Or just link the real article instead of some archive site.

And do I really need to point out that metal particals can come from anywhere and do not make people magnetic?

Unless you have some kind of argument that you are not the particles that are injected into you, I'm not sure what you are talking about. If you inject magnetic elements into your tissue it does make you magnetic. The particles are magnetic. It may disperse depending on how the particles are able to circulate.

This person might have something magnetic under their skin that was injected. It's a video of something lifting out of the skin like we saw on the last page:

https://153news.net/watch_video.php?v=KGGMORMYN69R

(https://i.imgur.com/AFsJn5l.png)

False.
If you out something ferrous inside you, something inside you is ferrous.  You do not become magnetic as metal (which is what your article suggested it is) is not magnetic by itself with the exception of magnetite.

Of course what makes this claim even stranger is the strength and the tip.  Its very well pronounced so if something metal is under the skin, its big.  Like bigger than a needle opening big. 

Perhaps all these people shoved a metal sliver under their skin to fool you?  You know, false actors?  Fakes?  Red flags?  Etc...
So... Prove these people did not self-insert metal into their skin.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 11, 2022, 07:37:55 AM
You've suggested that some people have been "magnetized". Who has been "magnetized"? The Moderna incident was a production failure by Rovi Labs in Spain. Minute particles of stainless steel from a machine that caps the vials were found in some batches of Moderna in Japan. Stainless steel is magnetic. But no one said humans were "magnetized".

When I take a daily iron supplement pill am I "magnetized"?

That information largely comes from the company trying to excuse away its failures. Not the best source. Are you asserting that they didn't know about the magnetic material in the vaccine, did not control it or regulate it, yet knows how much was placed in each vaccine?

I think admitting that your production line contaminated some vaccine batches isn't 'excusing' away its failures. It's literally admitting the failure.

And just using your rules...

As far as I can tell, Ryan Cole is still a doctor and a pathologist, no matter what detractors may criticize him for. As he his a doctor, it means that he is an authority and his opinion has merit.

As far as I can tell, Rovi Labs is still a producer and packager of Moderna vaccines, no matter what detractors may criticize them for. As they are a producer and packager of millions of Moderna vaccine doses, it means that they are an authority and their opinion has merit.

Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine Recall Investigation Report – October 2021 (https://www.takeda.com/4a7623/siteassets/ja-jp/home/announcements/2021/report/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-recall-investigation-report--october-2021.pdf)

The diameter of the hypodermic needle used to administer vaccines is approximately 260 microns. As stated above, approximate measurement of the 316L stainless steel particles in the tested vials were 22 x 15 to 697 x 410 microns. Therefore, it’s unlikely that significant particles were injected based on the size of the samples tested.

Stainless steel, even if injected intramuscularly, is considered safe. Stainless steel is routinely used in medical applications: for example, in orthopedic implants, heart valves and pacemaker implants, and metal sutures and surgical staples. 316L stainless steel is considered noncorrosive under normal physiological conditions and approved for these uses due to its durability and chemical/biologic compatibility 1).

Additionally, the amount of metal potentially deposited from an intramuscular injection is many orders of magnitude less than the exposure realized during implantation and surgical procedures. For example, a study demonstrated the deposit of over 500,000 particles and 1.13 mg of steel material from saw blades alone during a total knee arthroplasty simulated on pig knees). These amounts are well in excess of the miniscule quantity potentially injected with a small-volume vaccine administration. These surgical procedures are performed on millions of patients each year without incident.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 12, 2022, 02:03:52 PM
Most stainless steels are nonmagnetic, a few are barely paramagnetic.

Anyone notice that the only place we see this effect actually documented is in fake ass Youtube videos and obscure studies that can't be verified.

How come we haven't seen this on Fox News, the Oracle of All Truth? Or even OAN?

I used to laugh at idiots who believe the stupid shit on the internet. Time travel, med beds, lizards, anti-gravity, it's an amazing world of bullshit and the suckers who eat it up are clowns.
But Vladimir Putin has discovered that the willfully ignorant are a powerful force that can used as a weapon. Atomic warfare is obsolete suicide. The war of the future will be fought using armies of idiot rednecks being commanded by propaganda. Victory will go to those who can most effectively harness the power of human stupidity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 12, 2022, 06:46:05 PM
Quote from: stack
I think admitting that your production line contaminated some vaccine batches isn't 'excusing' away its failures. It's literally admitting the failure.

I am aware that you guys have a loose grasp on morals and like to make a lot of excuses, but that clearly came after they were caught, not before.

Quote from: stack
As far as I can tell, Rovi Labs is still a producer and packager of Moderna vaccines, no matter what detractors may criticize them for. As they are a producer and packager of millions of Moderna vaccine doses, it means that they are an authority and their opinion has merit.

About at much merit as a doctor being investigated for medical malpractice for killing a patient, attempting to minimize his involvement in the death, yes.

Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
How come we haven't seen this on Fox News, the Oracle of All Truth? Or even OAN?

Actually it was featured on a number of news channels -

An ABC station covered it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wQNswGCOE&ab_channel=WCPO9 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wQNswGCOE&ab_channel=WCPO9)

OAN covered it - https://www.mediamatters.org/one-america-news-network/oan-hosts-woman-who-claims-pfizer-vaccine-made-her-arm-magnetic-friendly

NBC covered it, but claim that there is no magnetic material in the vaccine and that everyone stuck it on with tape or glue - https://www.whec.com/news/fact-check-covid-vaccine-magnet-challenge-/6120752/

Quote from: Rama Set
Says the guy who cited a "study" from a group spreading 5G and vaccine autism lies.

The group was called the Forum for Vaccine Vigilance. They might be studying vaccine autism, but probably not 5G under that name. Nonetheless, I haven't seen you demonstrate that any of those things are associated with lies. That would require demonstrating that no one has gotten autism from a vaccine, or that putting a 5G transmitter near your body is perfectly healthy.

Here is notorious conspiracy outlet Scientific American publishing conspiracy fearmongering: (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no-reason-to-believe-5g-is-safe/)

(https://i.imgur.com/ksniPxC.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 12, 2022, 07:29:35 PM
Quote from: stack
I think admitting that your production line contaminated some vaccine batches isn't 'excusing' away its failures. It's literally admitting the failure.

I am aware that you guys have a loose grasp on morals and like to make a lot of excuses, but that clearly came after they were caught, not before.

Quote from: stack
As far as I can tell, Rovi Labs is still a producer and packager of Moderna vaccines, no matter what detractors may criticize them for. As they are a producer and packager of millions of Moderna vaccine doses, it means that they are an authority and their opinion has merit.

About at much merit as a doctor being investigated for medical malpractice for killing a patient, attempting to minimize his involvement in the death, yes.

Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
How come we haven't seen this on Fox News, the Oracle of All Truth? Or even OAN?

Actually it was featured on numerous news channels -

An ABC station covered it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wQNswGCOE&ab_channel=WCPO9 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wQNswGCOE&ab_channel=WCPO9)

OAN covered it - https://www.mediamatters.org/one-america-news-network/oan-hosts-woman-who-claims-pfizer-vaccine-made-her-arm-magnetic-friendly

NBC covered it, but claim that there is no magnetic material in the vaccine and that everyone stuck it on with tape or glue - https://www.whec.com/news/fact-check-covid-vaccine-magnet-challenge-/6120752/

Quote from: Rama Set
Says the guy who cited a "study" from a group spreading 5G and vaccine autism lies.

The group was called the Forum for Vaccine Vigilance. They might be studying vaccine autism, but probably not 5G under that name. Nonetheless, I haven't seen you prove that any of those things are associated with lies. That would require proving that no one has gotten autism from a vaccine, or that putting a 5G transmitter near your body is perfectly healthy.

Here is notorious conspiracy outlet Scientific American publishing conspiracy fearmongering: (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no-reason-to-believe-5g-is-safe/)

(https://i.imgur.com/ksniPxC.png)
G-G-Gish gallop.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 12, 2022, 07:33:38 PM
Quote from: stack
I think admitting that your production line contaminated some vaccine batches isn't 'excusing' away its failures. It's literally admitting the failure.

I am aware that you guys have a loose grasp on morals and like to make a lot of excuses, but that clearly came after they were caught, not before.

I'm pretty sure that dispensing and spreading mis-information about the safety of 11.9 billion doses of various vaccines that are, in part, potentially life-saving for some, is downright immoral. You are the one with little to no morals and will scrape and cherry-pick the very fringes of pseudoscience chock full of dubious characters just to perpetuate your own lack of morality. It's really kind of sickening and depraved.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 12, 2022, 08:24:49 PM
Tom. you fully believe in every single conspiracy theory going, don't you?

BTW, Scientific American is shit.  It was flushed down the toilet decades ago.  The last time I gave it any credit at all was in the early 80s.  Go to a library and pull some editions from then and compare to the POS it is today.  Really sad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 13, 2022, 01:31:25 AM
I am aware that you guys have a loose grasp on morals and like to make a lot of excuses, but that clearly came after they were caught, not before.
So what exactly are the moral implications of a vaccine that allegedly magnetizes people by some unknown mechanism?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 13, 2022, 08:22:47 AM
Tom. you fully believe in every single conspiracy theory going, don't you?
I suspect he just believes in trolling and wasting people's time. But giving him the benefit of the doubt, he says he's a Zetetic. And to quote the Wiki:
"using zeteticism one bases his conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved."
and elsewhere the Wiki says:
"we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence. It is too easily manipulated and altered. Many of the videos posted here to "prove a round Earth" by showing curvature will show no curvature or even concave curvature at parts."

So I'm sure Tom is doing his own experiments and observations, I look forward to seeing his results.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2022, 04:54:18 PM
Tom. you fully believe in every single conspiracy theory going, don't you?

BTW, Scientific American is shit.  It was flushed down the toilet decades ago.  The last time I gave it any credit at all was in the early 80s.  Go to a library and pull some editions from then and compare to the POS it is today.  Really sad.

As far as I know Scientific American is not a publication which publishes what they know to be abject lies, no.

Some people do report having headaches and feeling unwell when in very near proximity to even non-5G WiFi. When someone reports their sensitivity to their doctor or medical authority they are not contacted by a university or scientific group to enter their home for a study to determine the real cause. They complain of being ignored. So unless you are prepared to demonstrate that these types of devices have never produced even so much as a feeling of lethargy when placed feet from someone's head, to anyone of any possible biological sensitivity or medical condition, you really have nothing except for a claim that this has never occurred.

The same goes for the vaccines. Some people claim to have gotten sick. If you don't have large scale studies involving their specific side effect you are in no position to claim it to be false. There are thousands of possible side effects, and thousands of states of health a person may have. Assuming that it has all been studied is erroneous. "FDA Approved" products have been recalled numerous times in the past, even before this new fast-track process they made for the Covid vaccines. Making assumptions and declarations of safety without the necessary evidence is, in fact, pseudoscience.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2022, 06:07:43 PM
Tom. you fully believe in every single conspiracy theory going, don't you?

BTW, Scientific American is shit.  It was flushed down the toilet decades ago.  The last time I gave it any credit at all was in the early 80s.  Go to a library and pull some editions from then and compare to the POS it is today.  Really sad.

As far as I know Scientific American is not a publication which publishes what they know to be abject lies, no.

Some people do report having headaches and feeling unwell when in very near proximity to even non-5G WiFi. When someone reports their sensitivity to their doctor or medical authority they are not contacted by a university or scientific group to enter their home for a study to determine the real cause. They complain of being ignored. So unless you are prepared to demonstrate that these types of devices have never produced even so much as a feeling of lethargy when placed feet from someone's head, to anyone of any possible biological sensitivity or medical condition, you really have nothing except for a claim that this has never occurred.

The same goes for the vaccines. Some people claim to have gotten sick. If you don't have large scale studies involving their specific side effect you are in no position to claim it to be false. There are thousands of possible side effects, and thousands of states of health a person may have. Assuming that it has all been studied is erroneous. "FDA Approved" products have been recalled numerous times in the past, even before this new fast-track process they made for the Covid vaccines. Making assumptions and declarations of safety without the necessary evidence is, in fact, pseudoscience.

Conversely, the implications you make about the dangers of the vaccine are even less substantiated than the safety claims, which have double blind studies to support them, and should not be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2022, 06:08:34 PM
There are thousands of possible side effects, and thousands of states of health a person may have. Assuming that it has all been studied is erroneous. "FDA Approved" products have been recalled numerous times in the past, even before this new fast-track process they made for the Covid vaccines. Making assumptions and declarations of safety without the necessary evidence is, in fact, pseudoscience.

So you're saying that until the thousands of possible side effects, and thousands of states of health a person may possess have been studied, all pharmaceuticals should be considered unsafe?

And perhaps there's no need for an FDA approval as it is meaningless because some pharmaceuticals get recalled?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 13, 2022, 07:04:31 PM
Tom. you fully believe in every single conspiracy theory going, don't you?

BTW, Scientific American is shit.  It was flushed down the toilet decades ago.  The last time I gave it any credit at all was in the early 80s.  Go to a library and pull some editions from then and compare to the POS it is today.  Really sad.

As far as I know Scientific American is not a publication which publishes what they know to be abject lies, no.

Some people do report having headaches and feeling unwell when in very near proximity to even non-5G WiFi. When someone reports their sensitivity to their doctor or medical authority they are not contacted by a university or scientific group to enter their home for a study to determine the real cause. They complain of being ignored. So unless you are prepared to demonstrate that these types of devices have never produced even so much as a feeling of lethargy when placed feet from someone's head, to anyone of any possible biological sensitivity or medical condition, you really have nothing except for a claim that this has never occurred.

The same goes for the vaccines. Some people claim to have gotten sick. If you don't have large scale studies involving their specific side effect you are in no position to claim it to be false. There are thousands of possible side effects, and thousands of states of health a person may have. Assuming that it has all been studied is erroneous. "FDA Approved" products have been recalled numerous times in the past, even before this new fast-track process they made for the Covid vaccines. Making assumptions and declarations of safety without the necessary evidence is, in fact, pseudoscience.

You are not wrong.  https://www.who.int/teams/environment-climate-change-and-health/radiation-and-health/non-ionizing/el-hsensitivity


And there are people who react to the vaccine, which is why you wait 20 minutes after getting the shot before you leave.

But magnatism isn't one of the side effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on June 13, 2022, 07:29:47 PM
Unintended drug side affects can be quite lucrative.  Just ask the folks at Phizer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 13, 2022, 09:27:22 PM

You are not wrong.  https://www.who.int/teams/environment-climate-change-and-health/radiation-and-health/non-ionizing/el-hsensitivity

Goof find.  I especially like this line:
Quote
The majority of studies indicate that EHS individuals cannot detect EMF exposure any more accurately than non-EHS individuals. Well controlled and conducted double-blind studies have shown that symptoms were not correlated with EMF exposure.


And there are people who react to the vaccine, which is why you wait 20 minutes after getting the shot before you leave.

But magnatism isn't one of the side effects.
Another great point.  Here in Ontario any reactions are closely logged and tracked and even though the whole magnetism thing has been passed around the conspiracy crowd for a while it seems to have been totally missed by the medical staff administering these vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 13, 2022, 09:29:31 PM
The same goes for the vaccines. Some people claim to have gotten sick. If you don't have large scale studies involving their specific side effect you are in no position to claim it to be false. There are thousands of possible side effects, and thousands of states of health a person may have. Assuming that it has all been studied is erroneous. "FDA Approved" products have been recalled numerous times in the past, even before this new fast-track process they made for the Covid vaccines. Making assumptions and declarations of safety without the necessary evidence is, in fact, pseudoscience.
Then it's a good thing that there are still numerous ongoing COVID related clinical trials.  You can even volunteer for one if you qualify.
https://www.niaid.nih.gov/clinical-trials/covid-19-clinical-trials
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 13, 2022, 09:36:26 PM
As far as I know Scientific American is not a publication which publishes what they know to be abject lies, no.

They don't do a lot of fact checking either.

So unless you are prepared to demonstrate that these types of devices have never produced even so much as a feeling of lethargy when placed feet from someone's head, to anyone of any possible biological sensitivity or medical condition, you really have nothing except for a claim that this has never occurred.
  It's been demonstrated.  See Lord Dave's post.

If you don't have large scale studies involving their specific side effect you are in no position to claim it to be false.
Did you really just type that?  Are you serious?  Where is the Flat Earth community's scientifically accepted large scale studies and irrefutable experiments showing that the earth is not a near sphere?  Heh, my guess is, according to your own statement and logic, you are in no position claim the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 13, 2022, 09:53:34 PM
If you don't have large scale studies involving their specific side effect you are in no position to claim it to be false.

The vaccine turned me into a newt!

But I got better.

We need to investigate the side effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2022, 07:10:39 PM
Dr. Mary Bowden seems to be calling anyone who took the vaccine foolish.

(https://i.imgur.com/sLkCb1H.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 21, 2022, 07:14:39 PM
Dr. Mary Bowden seems to be calling anyone who took the vaccine foolish.

And?  You once again cherry picked a quote that "seems" to agree with you.  The scare-mongering she is engaging is pretty anti-scientific, I am sure you would agree.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2022, 07:32:18 PM
Dr. Mary Bowden seems to be calling anyone who took the vaccine foolish.

And?  You once again cherry picked a quote that "seems" to agree with you.  The scare-mongering she is engaging is pretty anti-scientific, I am sure you would agree.

Unscientific is generally anything that doesn't adhere to the scientific method. She did reference what amounts previous experiments on women that resulted in deformities and deaths of babies, which took years to uncover.

This negates the complaints in this thread that it's not scientifically established that those deaths/illnesses are connected to the vaccine, and that current authorities say it is safe. It is actually those statements that are unscientific, because in past it has taken years to establish a definite cause.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 21, 2022, 08:07:36 PM
https://fullfact.org/health/thalidomide-covid-vaccines-misleading/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2022, 08:18:18 PM
https://fullfact.org/health/thalidomide-covid-vaccines-misleading/

I cited a doctor telling us that we should be concerned. You cited someone who is not a doctor (https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-norton-47473a114/?originalSubdomain=uk) telling us that the doctor is wrong and that we shouldn't be concerned about safety because of past mistakes. ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 21, 2022, 09:08:44 PM
Dr. Mary Bowden seems to be calling anyone who took the vaccine foolish.

And?  You once again cherry picked a quote that "seems" to agree with you.  The scare-mongering she is engaging is pretty anti-scientific, I am sure you would agree.

Unscientific is generally anything that doesn't adhere to the scientific method. She did reference what amounts previous experiments on women that resulted in deformities and deaths of babies, which took years to uncover.
Incorrect, she referenced unknown side effects. Do you research what science was done or are you just assuming?

Quote
This negates the complaints in this thread that it's not scientifically established that those deaths/illnesses are connected to the vaccine, and that current authorities say it is safe. It is actually those statements that are unscientific, because in past it has taken years to establish a definite cause.

Incorrect. The science to date does not correlate those deaths/illnesses to the vaccine. There is no scientist that has said otherwise. It is data that policy decisions are based on, and that analysis (which is not scientific by nature) concluded that the risk was minimal versus the benefit. None of that means that there aren’t side effects we aren’t aware of and it does not mean that discovery of those side effects indicates negligence on its face.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 21, 2022, 09:10:23 PM
https://fullfact.org/health/thalidomide-covid-vaccines-misleading/

I cited a doctor telling us that we should be concerned. You cited someone who is not a doctor (https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-norton-47473a114/?originalSubdomain=uk) telling us that the doctor is wrong and that we shouldn't be concerned about safety because of past mistakes. ::)

Did you fail to read the article or are you lying about what it says? Your characterization of it is very different from its content.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 21, 2022, 09:25:36 PM
I cited a doctor telling us that we should be concerned.
Yep. Of the million medical doctors in the US you found one who says something which fits your agenda.
You can keep ignoring this if you like but is your doctor's view the prevailing one? If it isn't then you're just cherry picking. Again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2022, 10:01:02 PM
I cited a doctor telling us that we should be concerned.
Yep. Of the million medical doctors in the US you found one who says something which fits your agenda.
You can keep ignoring this if you like but is your doctor's view the prevailing one? If it isn't then you're just cherry picking. Again.

Actually I cited a doctor. You cited none, and are merely giving your personal opinion on what doctors think. Doctors do not generally go around professing or promising or guaranteeing that the vaccine will be safe.

The University of Mississippi Medical Center says right on their website that the long term effects are unknown:

https://www.umc.edu/CoronaVirus/Vaccinations/FAQs.html#long-term

(https://i.imgur.com/4gnqLM1.png)

"Unknown" is the official answer, not your nonsense.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 21, 2022, 10:12:49 PM
Actually I cited a doctor.

Here are some doctors that say that the COVID vaccines are safe.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/is-the-covid19-vaccine-safe
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2022, 10:43:57 PM
Your link says that they are still monitoring for safety: "This review process continues to monitor vaccine safety."

If they still need to study it, then it means that they don't know. They are not performing much study of the safety of orange juice, for example.

The website continues:

"Continuous monitoring for problems and side effects. Once a vaccine gets an EUA and is being given to people, the FDA and the CDC continue to watch carefully in case problems arise. Data on the vaccine’s safety record accumulates over time, as more and more people who receive it report on their experience and any side effects. One important way to report adverse events after vaccination is through the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System."

Oh, but you guys don't want us to talk about VAERS because you don't like what it says and the US government's only vaccine reporting mechanism could be wrong.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 21, 2022, 10:57:02 PM
I cited a doctor telling us that we should be concerned.
Yep. Of the million medical doctors in the US you found one who says something which fits your agenda.
You can keep ignoring this if you like but is your doctor's view the prevailing one? If it isn't then you're just cherry picking. Again.

Actually I cited a doctor. You cited none, and are merely giving your personal opinion on what doctors think. Doctors do not generally go around professing or promising or guaranteeing that the vaccine will be safe.

Actually, a Dr. was cited. From the article:

Professor Peter Openshaw, professor of Experimental Medicine at Imperial College London, told Full Fact: “There is absolutely no reason to draw parallels with thalidomide: vaccines are not drugs, and the whole system of licencing has been completely reformed since that era.

“There has never been as much research on which to base vaccine licensure - it was done very fast because we face a global emergency and almost unlimited resources were put into the studies.”


Here's his bio: Peter Openshaw is a respiratory physician and mucosal immunologist, studying how the immune system both protects against viral infection but also causes disease.

I think I'll go with the Dr. Openshaw, immunologist, rather than your EN&T & Sleep Wellness Dr who was kicked out of her hospital for diseminating mis-information.

The University of Mississippi Medical Center says right on their website that the long term effects are unknown:

https://www.umc.edu/CoronaVirus/Vaccinations/FAQs.html#long-term

(https://i.imgur.com/4gnqLM1.png)

"Unknown" is the official answer, not your nonsense.

And a sentence later in your citation:

"Serious adverse effects after any vaccination usually occur within six weeks of administration. No serious side effects have been reported within six weeks of the receipt of the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2022, 11:07:23 PM
Quote from: stack
Professor Peter Openshaw, professor of Experimental Medicine at Imperial College London, told Full Fact: “There is absolutely no reason to draw parallels with thalidomide: vaccines are not drugs, and the whole system of licencing has been completely reformed since that era.

“There has never been as much research on which to base vaccine licensure - it was done very fast because we face a global emergency and almost unlimited resources were put into the studies.”

Here's his bio: Peter Openshaw is a respiratory physician and mucosal immunologist, studying how the immune system both protects against viral infection but also causes disease.

Actually he cites no experiments or examples. He is merely citing trust that things are better and that the FDA can now determine long-term effects on novel genetic manipulation mechanisms in record time. "Trust them" is not part of the scientific method.

Quote from: stack
And a sentence later in your citation:

"Serious adverse effects after any vaccination usually occur within six weeks of administration. No serious side effects have been reported within six weeks of the receipt of the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine."

Yes, because if it's safe for six weeks it means that it's safe forever and won't ever result in cancer no matter how many boosters you take.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 21, 2022, 11:36:58 PM
Quote from: stack
Professor Peter Openshaw, professor of Experimental Medicine at Imperial College London, told Full Fact: “There is absolutely no reason to draw parallels with thalidomide: vaccines are not drugs, and the whole system of licencing has been completely reformed since that era.

“There has never been as much research on which to base vaccine licensure - it was done very fast because we face a global emergency and almost unlimited resources were put into the studies.”

Here's his bio: Peter Openshaw is a respiratory physician and mucosal immunologist, studying how the immune system both protects against viral infection but also causes disease.

Actually he cites no experiments or examples. He is merely citing trust that things are better and that the FDA can now determine long-term effects on novel genetic manipulation mechanisms in record time. "Trust them" is not part of the scientific method.

Sure he does. Examples:

"...the whole system of licencing has been completely reformed since that era."

"...a global emergency and almost unlimited resources were put into the studies."

What experiments did Dr Bowden cite?

Quote from: stack
And a sentence later in your citation:

"Serious adverse effects after any vaccination usually occur within six weeks of administration. No serious side effects have been reported within six weeks of the receipt of the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine."

Yes, because if it's safe for six weeks it means that it's safe forever and won't ever result in cancer no matter how many boosters you take.  ::)

How many verified cancer cases have come from the year+ of MRNA and Non-MNRA vaccines administered out of the 12 billion shots given worldwide to date?

How many years should we wait to be considered free of "long-term" side effects for any therapy? We only had to wait a couple of months to find out that a Covid infection can result in long-term adverse side-effects. So far so good a year into the various vaxs tho.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 21, 2022, 11:58:34 PM
Your link says that they are still monitoring for safety: "This review process continues to monitor vaccine safety."
Of course the review process is ongoing.  It's a necessary step for full FDA approval.

If they still need to study it, then it means that they don't know.
Maybe not, but some of the long term effects of COVID are known, and rather unpleasant.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html

They are not performing much study of the safety of orange juice, for example.
That's because the long term dangers of orange juice is already well known.
https://www.livestrong.com/article/495611-side-effects-of-too-much-orange-juice/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on June 22, 2022, 03:04:59 AM
Your link says that they are still monitoring for safety: "This review process continues to monitor vaccine safety."

If they still need to study it, then it means that they don't know. They are not performing much study of the safety of orange juice, for example.

The website continues:

"Continuous monitoring for problems and side effects. Once a vaccine gets an EUA and is being given to people, the FDA and the CDC continue to watch carefully in case problems arise. Data on the vaccine’s safety record accumulates over time, as more and more people who receive it report on their experience and any side effects. One important way to report adverse events after vaccination is through the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System."
This is true of any and every vaccine given.  The monitoring never stops.

Oh, but you guys don't want us to talk about VAERS because you don't like what it says and the US government's only vaccine reporting mechanism could be wrong.  ::)
VAERS says nothing.  It is a database of unsorted, unprocessed, unverified and unanalyzed raw data.

From the VAERS site:
Quote
The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted as evidence of a causal association between a vaccine and an adverse event, or as evidence about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
VAERS does not obtain follow up records on every report. If a report is classified as serious, VAERS requests additional information, such as health records, to further evaluate the report.
VAERS data are limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

Anyone can enter a report into VAERS.  You, me, Thork, Mr. Potato Head..
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 22, 2022, 07:45:55 AM
Actually I cited a doctor.
Yep. Of the million medical doctors in the US you found one who says something which fits your agenda.
You can keep ignoring this if you like but is your doctor's view the prevailing one? If it isn't then you're just cherry picking. Again.

I have pointed this out a bunch of times. You have two go to dishonest tactics:
1) Appeal to authority if the authority says something which fits your agenda, reject any authority which does not. So you reject all scientific authority
2) Cherry pick an authority who is an outlier and ignore the prevailing view.

In a community of a million people you're pretty much guaranteed to find someone who says things which fit your agenda. To just cite them as an authority and dismiss the near consensus is dishonest.

And of course the long term effects of something new is unknown, by definition. What's the long term effect of Covid 19? It's unknown. Because of the 19 part.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 23, 2022, 10:37:17 PM
Yep. Of the million medical doctors in the US you found one who says something which fits your agenda.
You can keep ignoring this if you like but is your doctor's view the prevailing one? If it isn't then you're just cherry picking. Again.

Actually it's not cherry picking at all. The prevailing view is that it is unknown if the vaccine is safe long term.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
And of course the long term effects of something new is unknown, by definition.

Yes, and that is exactly the message given by the previous doctor I cited on this. Due diligence is required because "safe" drugs have turned out to be unsafe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on June 23, 2022, 10:43:16 PM
Anyone can enter a report into VAERS.  You, me, Thork, Mr. Potato Head..
You would enter a false report into VAERS?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 23, 2022, 10:48:51 PM
Anyone can enter a report into VAERS.  You, me, Thork, Mr. Potato Head..
You would enter a false report into VAERS?

True and false are not the only two ways to characterize VAERS posts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 23, 2022, 10:51:53 PM
Yep. Of the million medical doctors in the US you found one who says something which fits your agenda.
You can keep ignoring this if you like but is your doctor's view the prevailing one? If it isn't then you're just cherry picking. Again.

Actually it's not cherry picking at all. The prevailing view is that it is unknown if the vaccine is safe long term.

Quote
And of course the long term effects of something new is unknown, by definition.

Yes, and that is exactly the message given by the previous doctor I cited on this. Due diligence is required because "safe" drugs have turned out to be unsafe.

You are being dishonest of course. You are implying there is a serious risk associated with potentially unknown side effects when the prevailing opinion based on a vast body of knowledge is that unknown side effects are almost certainly not going to present themselves in a long time frame but instead present acutely. The prevailing medical opinion is that the vaccines are VERY safe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 24, 2022, 12:36:05 AM
The prevailing view is that it is unknown if the vaccine is safe long term.
The problem with "long term" is that the longer the term, the harder it becomes to tell the difference between the effects of the vaccine and other non-vaccine related factors.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 24, 2022, 02:14:27 AM
You are being dishonest of course. You are implying there is a serious risk associated with potentially unknown side effects when the prevailing opinion based on a vast body of knowledge is that unknown side effects are almost certainly not going to present themselves in a long time frame but instead present acutely. The prevailing medical opinion is that the vaccines are VERY safe.

No. Unknown most certainly does not mean "VERY safe". Unknown means unknown. You might be able to find a doctor telling you that they think it's safe, or that it is safe as far as they know, but the official consensus is that it is unknown.

https://www.umc.edu/CoronaVirus/Vaccinations/FAQs.html#long-term

(https://i.imgur.com/njg32N8.png)

The vaccine might harm you, and it might not. Unknown is unknown. This is the risk of signing up for a novel genetic manipulation experiment. You are in fear of your life because of muh Covid and are choosing to gamble your health against the fallacy of man.

aap.org reiterates the official position in advising parents on vaccinating their children:

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/covid-19-vaccine-for-children/about-the-covid-19-vaccine-frequently-asked-questions/

(https://i.imgur.com/Fu3VFoM.png)

The official position is that it is impossible to know.

You have to weigh the hope that it doesn't happen because it hasn't happened before with the fact that the mechanism of this licensed vaccine is unlike the mechanism of other licensed vaccines. Most other licensed vaccines do not involve genetic manipulation, and do not require boosters every six months. If it is "impossible to know" then any sentiment to the positive is just a hope that it is safe. It is not knowledge that it is safe. The knowledge that it is safe is unknown.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 24, 2022, 02:34:00 AM
Apparently the FDA also thinks the safety is unknown and thinks children would make the perfect experimental base to test this.

https://sboh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-01/Tab05a-PublicComment-Packet-Final.pdf?ver=2021-10-08-155349-087

(https://i.imgur.com/TsUQ2hn.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: markjo on June 24, 2022, 02:42:47 AM
The vaccine might harm you, and it might not. Unknown is unknown. This is the risk of signing up for a novel genetic manipulation experiment. You are in fear of your life because of muh Covid and are choosing to gamble your health against the fallacy of man.
Of course choosing to get vaccinated or not is a gamble.  If you get vaccinated, you risk several known short term, relatively benign side effects and any number of unknown possible long term side effects.  However, if you choose not to get vaccinated, you risk catching a disease that has a number of known serious effects, up to and including death.  Your choice is yours, but I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine that President Trump created Operation Warp Speed to fast track than with the disease that has killed over one million Americans.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 24, 2022, 03:06:58 AM
Apparently the FDA also thinks the safety is unknown and thinks children would make the perfect experimental base to test this.

https://sboh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-01/Tab05a-PublicComment-Packet-Final.pdf?ver=2021-10-08-155349-087


No. They are making an obvious tautology. Of course you can’t know how a vaccine will affect a child until you give it to a child.

In regards to safety, you can easily find an extremely large number of institutions and professionals vouching for the safety of the vaccine. This isn’t controversial unless you actively look constantly to undermine orthodoxy and are willing to disregard vast amounts of evidence to do so. It doesn’t matter how many red herrings like “novel genetic manipulation” or the frequency of boosters, you offer. The data is being collected and continues to agree with the safety assessments. Sorry, you are neither convincing enough nor scary enough to change anyone’s mind.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 24, 2022, 04:02:27 AM
Quote from: Rama Set
In regards to safety, you can easily find an extremely large number of institutions and professionals vouching for the safety of the vaccine.

And if you ask them they will tell you that the long term safety is unknown.

An "extremely large number of institutions and professionals" also once vouched for cigarettes. They didn't know the long term health implications, but vouched for it nonetheless.

(https://i.imgur.com/OYl2zV4.jpg)

People also used to think that sugar was good for you:

(https://i.imgur.com/p9Z9Q1A.jpg)

Children were allowed to play with X-Ray machines in shoe stores

Coca-Cola had cocaine in it

Heroin was legal

Over 10,000 FDA approved drugs have been recalled in just the last ten years -

https://www.maylightfootlaw.com/blogs/fda-drug-recall-statistics/

(https://i.imgur.com/g6vvSKO.png)

History is replete with one mistake after the next. In FDA's case, thousands of mistakes after the next.

Doctors acknowledge that it can take a significantly long amount of time before we have knowledge of safety:

https://www.natap.org/2007/HIV/052507_01.htm

"Drs George Sawaya and Karen Smith-McCune of the University of California, San Francisco, said that while Gardasil appears to be safe and effective, "a cautious approach may be warranted" because of questions that still remain about the drug's long-term effectiveness and potential for adverse effects that could emerge over time. "Until we have the data, I view the situation as an ongoing experimental trial. The ultimate safety of the vaccine is unknown and it's going to be decades before we know anything,'' wrote the doctors.

If you don't have the data then you just have an opinion.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 24, 2022, 04:31:48 AM
That’s a long post that doesn’t say anything about COVID. Not surprising.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on June 24, 2022, 09:26:08 AM
The official position is that it is impossible to know.
Yeah. Just like it's impossible to know the long term effects of Covid. It is, by definition, impossible to know the long term effects of a new thing. Because of how time works.
But I note you accidentally forgot to highlight a different part of the paragraph you quoted:

(https://i.ibb.co/6Nfh6MS/Vaccine.jpg)

You're acting like it's a complete roll of the dice, when the reality is every activity in life involves risk.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 24, 2022, 01:24:18 PM
"That said no vaccines have been found to have an unexpected long-term safety problem, that was only found years or decades after introduction"

You do realize that you have spent this entire thread denying early negative results from the Covid vaccine, right? This is simply inapplicable, because people are claiming a whole host of negative side effects, which you are currently denying. There is data from VAERS showing that this vaccine is much more dangerous than other vaccines, which you are denying. There is data suggesting significant risk for pregnant women, which you are denying. There are a number of doctors shouting danger, claiming that the vaccine is harmful, which you are denying. Athletes were mysteriously going down by the hundreds, increasing in number over the same months as the vaccines were rolled out, which you are denying. The sentence above implies there is no negative data, but there is.

When early Cigarette data came out people also spent a long time denying it and refused to believe that they were killing themselves. It is sad, but true.

Also, as previously mentioned, the Covid vaccine is much different than most other previously licensed vaccines. Most other vaccines do not involve genetic manipulation and do not require boosters every six months. It's not the same mechanism. This is just a hope based on a leap of logic that it is going to turn out like other vaccines, and assumes that there is no current negative data. This is not knowledge that the vaccine is safe long term. They admit directly that the long term safety is "impossible to know". If it was possible to know based on the logic you gave then it would be possible to know, which they specifically did not state. What was given was a fig leaf to hedge your hopes on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 24, 2022, 01:52:08 PM
Tom, as you know dishonest McTrollface, the VAERS data can not distinguish between a positive result, a false positive, a deception or a mistake. It’s the beginning of an investigation, not a conclusion.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 24, 2022, 06:46:34 PM
Also, as previously mentioned, the Covid vaccine is much different than most other previously licensed vaccines.

So you're ok with the J&J, Novavax, Bio E vaccines ? It's just the novel MRNA ones you take issue with?

Most other vaccines do not involve genetic manipulation and do not require boosters every six months.

Flu vaccine is seasonal, essentially every 6 months. J&J, Novavax, Bio E vaccines function like common vaccines, so you're ok with those?

This is not knowledge that the vaccine is safe long term. They admit directly that the long term safety is "impossible to know".

How do you define "long-term"? The FDA approves approximately 50 pharma drugs per year. Aren't all of them in the "impossible to know" long-term effects category?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 07, 2022, 01:13:14 AM
Life Insurance companies also reported significantly increased claims in 2021, despite that Covid started in 2020. Weird.

https://youtu.be/Sp8ciwi0CL8
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 07, 2022, 01:19:29 AM
People must have really had a hard time out there on their motorcycles in 2021. Not like anything else was going on
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: BillO on July 07, 2022, 02:28:25 AM
Life Insurance companies also reported significantly increased claims in 2021, despite that Covid started in 2020. Weird.

https://youtu.be/Sp8ciwi0CL8
Are you serious?

So, let me recap.  For the last two years people were forced to hibernate.  Sit on their sofas and watch shite on TV and YT and eat "comfort" food.  You think it's weird that after a year of forced sedentary lifestyles and too many shifty snacks, people started to get ill.  So fucking unexpected!!!

Tom, you are no friggin' good at this political commentary.  Give it up for your own sake.  No matter what you say in this forum, someone calls you out, and for good reason.  Go to Dunkin', eat donuts, die early, enjoy your thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 07, 2022, 03:31:51 AM
Are you serious?

So, let me recap.  For the last two years people were forced to hibernate.  Sit on their sofas and watch shite on TV and YT and eat "comfort" food.  You think it's weird that after a year of forced sedentary lifestyles and too many shifty snacks, people started to get ill.  So fucking unexpected!!!

Yeah, nice explanation. Unfortunately an explanation is not evidence and this is just one of many things that you need to explain away, in what appears to be an unending series of coincidences which just makes it seem like the vaccine may be harmful.

If you were honest, you would admit that there are multiple explanations for why insurance claims went up in 2021. But you are not, and a vaccine addict, so it's anything except the vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 07, 2022, 03:39:37 AM
Seems to track with positive results from vax rollout. Death payouts spike in 2020 pre-vax. Then drop off as vax begins to roll out. Spike again in Q3 when Delta hit, which was around mid-June 2021 if I remember. Then drops back down to almost 2019 levels as more people get vaxed.

(https://www.snl.com/articles/411742079.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 07, 2022, 08:24:22 AM
The chart you posted says at the bottom "Data shown for net death benefit include annuity, life, and accident and health contracts". It does not appear to be only life insurance individual payouts in there. If health contracts include an increase in general health insurance billed surcharges to the insurance companies because of covid precautions or to cover other covid measures, it might taint the data.

The video is about life insurance payouts to individuals, which indicates that there was a significant increase in 2021, over 2020 and 2019 levels.

(https://i.imgur.com/EmZI2ZD.jpg)


An article about life insurance claims says that claims were significantly more in 2021 -

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/life-insurers-adapt-pandemic-risk-070702607.html

"Dutch insurer Aegon, which does two-thirds of its business in the United States, said its claims in the Americas in the third quarter were $111 million, up from $31 million a year earlier. "

The article is written in Jan 2022 about the previous year, which means it was up in the third quarter of 2021 over the third quarter of 2020. The article blames the increase on "Covid" -

"The global life insurance industry was hit with reported claims due to COVID-19 of $5.5 billion in the first nine months of 2021 versus $3.5 billion for the whole of 2020, according to insurance broker Howden in a report on Jan 4"

So "Covid" was significantly more intense in 2021 than in 2020, which is contradictory to the graph you displayed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 07, 2022, 02:40:51 PM
The article is written in Jan 2022 about the previous year, which means it was up in the third quarter of 2021 over the third quarter of 2020. The article blames the increase on "Covid"

"Yes"

Quote
- "The global life insurance industry was hit with reported claims due to COVID-19 of $5.5 billion in the first nine months of 2021 versus $3.5 billion for the whole of 2020, according to insurance broker Howden in a report on Jan 4"

So "Covid" was significantly more intense in 2021 than in 2020, which is contradictory to the graph you displayed.

You will notice in the graph that the first two quarters of 2021 are signficantly higher than every previous quarter.  Seems like the contradiction is in your own mind.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 07, 2022, 04:30:07 PM
Despite the vaccine, why are there more deaths this year? (https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/01/16/fact-check-did-more-people-die-covid-19-2021-than-2020/8858993002/)

Spencer Fox, associate director of the University of Texas COVID-19 Modeling Consortium,  said the first thing to consider when it comes to looking at 2020 and 2021 pandemic statistics is that 2020 is a ten-month period while 2021 is a full pandemic year. Much of the COVID-19 deaths happened March 2020 and onward; only 26 deaths involving COVID-19 were recorded for January and February 2020.

Additionally, the U.S. experienced a surge in cases starting winter 2020 near the end of that year, Fox said. Many people died from those 2020 infections in early 2021, and that was well before vaccines were widely available. So while many of the infections in that wave happened in 2020, they were part of the 2021 mortality statistics.

There was also a delta variant surge in summer 2021, after vaccines had become widely available to the public.

"What we've seen basically since that surge is really just continued spread," Fox said, noting that the delta and omicron variants surprised a lot of people.

The delta variant was more infectious and had increased transmissibility,according to the CDC.

"But I think even though vaccines were widely available, I think a lot of the mortality that happened over the summer – during that major Delta surge – was happening on unvaccinated individuals," Fox said.

Fox noted that even though many people were vaccinated, vaccination rates were low. "There was plenty kind of fuel for the COVID virus to spread on," Fox said.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shifter on July 19, 2022, 04:49:49 AM
Could it be that people are sick and dying because covid ravaged their bodies and fudged up their heart, lung's and brain? Just because you 'survive' covid, doesn't mean you're out of the woods. More than a few are left with permanent damage and scarring. We know internal scarring can increase likelihood of cancer so we should expect to see an increase in those. No doubt anti vaxxer muppets will try to link the vaccine to cancer lol

I've yet to see people like Tom explain away how the vaccine is more harmful than the virus. Using actual science and facts and not made up BS

I don't care though. Covid is nature's way of culling the stupid at this point
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 23, 2022, 07:22:23 PM
Despite the vaccine, why are there more deaths this year? (https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/01/16/fact-check-did-more-people-die-covid-19-2021-than-2020/8858993002/)

Actually some say that cold showers may be the blame:

(https://i.imgur.com/Fx6jAWM.jpg)

Others lay blame on energy bills:

(https://i.imgur.com/tpwktxQ.png)

Still others lay blame on a number of other causes:

(https://media.patriots.win/post/Bba3Ch4wAUwc.jpeg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 23, 2022, 10:07:37 PM
Solid research. Looks like a lot of different things/activities may cause harm to humans. Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 31, 2022, 07:15:43 PM
Solid research. Looks like a lot of different things/activities may cause harm to humans. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yep, it's a mystery.

https://twitter.com/DrJamesOlsson/status/1538915414423609344
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 31, 2022, 08:08:52 PM
Solid research. Looks like a lot of different things/activities may cause harm to humans. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yep, it's a mystery.

https://twitter.com/DrJamesOlsson/status/1538915414423609344

Fun fact:
My HS PE teacher, healthy guy, in his 40s, really great guy.  Had a sudden heart attack and died.
This was in the 90s.

I had a coworker whose son died while walking from his car to a shop.  Blood clot.
This was in the early 2010s.

Its a mystery....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ohplease on July 31, 2022, 09:17:29 PM
Heart disease has been the leading cause of death in the US at least since the 50s.  That rate had been coming down starting in the 70s-80s (I'd guess due to lower rates of smoking) and for awhile it looked like cancer (the perennial number 2) would surpass it, but heart disease began to go up again around 2010 so its still the leading cause but not by very much over cancer.

Not surprisingly heart disease has impacted many people.  My GP, a Stanford grad, really great guy, very healthy, no history of heart disease was out bicycling and dropped dead from a massive coronary back in the 90s.  My father had a heart attack though survived it.

There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.  But no evidence of heart attacks induced by the vaccines.  That rumor appears to have started from a preliminary report on temporary heart inflammation in some rare cases caused by the vaccines.  But this is a marker for possibly increased risk of heart disease only if the inflammation is NOT temporary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 31, 2022, 11:47:53 PM
Solid research. Looks like a lot of different things/activities may cause harm to humans. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yep, it's a mystery.

https://twitter.com/DrJamesOlsson/status/1538915414423609344

Fun fact:
My HS PE teacher, healthy guy, in his 40s, really great guy.  Had a sudden heart attack and died.
This was in the 90s.

I had a coworker whose son died while walking from his car to a shop.  Blood clot.
This was in the early 2010s.

Its a mystery....

I’m not sure what a tweet from a random doctor has to do with anything.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 08:27:26 AM
Solid research. Looks like a lot of different things/activities may cause harm to humans. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yep, it's a mystery.

https://twitter.com/DrJamesOlsson/status/1538915414423609344

Fun fact:
My HS PE teacher, healthy guy, in his 40s, really great guy.  Had a sudden heart attack and died.
This was in the 90s.

I had a coworker whose son died while walking from his car to a shop.  Blood clot.
This was in the early 2010s.

Its a mystery....

I’m not sure what a tweet from a random doctor has to do with anything.

Scare tactics.
Make it vague enough and people fill in the rest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 01, 2022, 08:43:56 AM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ohplease on August 01, 2022, 09:03:35 AM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 01, 2022, 10:22:49 AM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
During the lockdowns and restrictions, many clinics, medical centers, and hospitals were closed to people needing regular visits to such places for many different types of ailments.

Both my sister and my brother-in-law were denied such visits during the near entirety of 2020.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 11:15:57 AM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?

Action is right.
People had to do phone consultations or go to the hospital.  Action's family members had stage 4 cancer and may have lived an extra month if the doctor caught something sooner via physical inspection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 01, 2022, 01:06:22 PM
It's hard for most people to admit that they are wrong. It is commendable for this health care professional to admit it.


https://seed171.bitchute.com/08tAzwjwwhDb/lRmd6CiKKRMJ.mp4
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 01:29:15 PM
It's hard for most people to admit that they are wrong. It is commendable for this health care professional to admit it.


https://seed171.bitchute.com/08tAzwjwwhDb/lRmd6CiKKRMJ.mp4


Sucks for her.  I didn't have any adverse side effects.
And no, I feel no real sympathy.
1. Its tictok.  Filmed with a black and white filter. 
2. No credentials.  No legitimacy.  Just "i worked in healthcare" without stating her job title, even.
3. She makes no evidence that the vaccine caused the CIPD.
Also here's info on CIPD.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/chronic-inflammatory-demyelinating-polyradiculoneuropathy
She's making a giant leap of logic here without supporting evidence. 

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 01, 2022, 01:33:33 PM
I didn't have any adverse side effects.

...

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick.

There is also no evidence from you about your experience with the vaccine. Pro-vaxxers admit to acting dishonestly to push their agenda.

(https://i.imgur.com/nx9NsjX.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 01:41:29 PM
I didn't have any adverse side effects.

...

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick.

There is also no evidence from you about your experience with the vaccine. Pro-vaxxers admit to acting dishonestly to push their agenda.

(https://i.imgur.com/nx9NsjX.png)

True.
So my advice is to trust nothing online.  Not even things you support.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 01, 2022, 02:03:04 PM
I didn't have any adverse side effects.

...

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick.

There is also no evidence from you about your experience with the vaccine. Pro-vaxxers admit to acting dishonestly to push their agenda.

(https://i.imgur.com/nx9NsjX.png)

True.
So my advice is to trust nothing online.  Not even things you support.
Why would you bother to offer advice online if no one is to trust it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
I didn't have any adverse side effects.

...

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick.

There is also no evidence from you about your experience with the vaccine. Pro-vaxxers admit to acting dishonestly to push their agenda.

(https://i.imgur.com/nx9NsjX.png)

True.
So my advice is to trust nothing online.  Not even things you support.
Why would you bother to offer advice online if no one is to trust it?
Why indeed?
Think about it.  Use your brain. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 01, 2022, 03:03:04 PM
I didn't have any adverse side effects.

...

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick.

There is also no evidence from you about your experience with the vaccine. Pro-vaxxers admit to acting dishonestly to push their agenda.

(https://i.imgur.com/nx9NsjX.png)

True.
So my advice is to trust nothing online.  Not even things you support.
Why would you bother to offer advice online if no one is to trust it?
Why indeed?
Think about it.  Use your brain.
Cementing the concept no one is to trust you, especially?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 03:33:29 PM
I didn't have any adverse side effects.

...

Simply put: there's no evidence to this women even works at a doctor's office, much less is sick.

There is also no evidence from you about your experience with the vaccine. Pro-vaxxers admit to acting dishonestly to push their agenda.

(https://i.imgur.com/nx9NsjX.png)

True.
So my advice is to trust nothing online.  Not even things you support.
Why would you bother to offer advice online if no one is to trust it?
Why indeed?
Think about it.  Use your brain.
Cementing the concept no one is to trust you, especially?

If I said yes, would you trust me?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ohplease on August 01, 2022, 04:32:42 PM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
During the lockdowns and restrictions, many clinics, medical centers, and hospitals were closed to people needing regular visits to such places for many different types of ailments.

Both my sister and my brother-in-law were denied such visits during the near entirety of 2020.
It doesn't sound like these were visits to the ER in the sense of "I think I might be having a heart attack", but something else.  Certainly many elective procedures were postponed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 05:28:57 PM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
During the lockdowns and restrictions, many clinics, medical centers, and hospitals were closed to people needing regular visits to such places for many different types of ailments.

Both my sister and my brother-in-law were denied such visits during the near entirety of 2020.
It doesn't sound like these were visits to the ER in the sense of "I think I might be having a heart attack", but something else.  Certainly many elective procedures were postponed.

They died a few months later. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 01, 2022, 05:37:24 PM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
During the lockdowns and restrictions, many clinics, medical centers, and hospitals were closed to people needing regular visits to such places for many different types of ailments.

Both my sister and my brother-in-law were denied such visits during the near entirety of 2020.
It doesn't sound like these were visits to the ER in the sense of "I think I might be having a heart attack", but something else.  Certainly many elective procedures were postponed.
It sounds like an overall aging population was denied normally routine follow-up visits that could have prevented further deaths.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ohplease on August 01, 2022, 05:38:09 PM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?

Action is right.
People had to do phone consultations or go to the hospital.  Action's family members had stage 4 cancer and may have lived an extra month if the doctor caught something sooner via physical inspection.
Losing a family member is always difficult, but I was talking specifically about heart attacks and whether folks were denied access to the ER (I should have made that clear above, since the access  you describe is different).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2022, 05:42:36 PM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
During the lockdowns and restrictions, many clinics, medical centers, and hospitals were closed to people needing regular visits to such places for many different types of ailments.

Both my sister and my brother-in-law were denied such visits during the near entirety of 2020.
It doesn't sound like these were visits to the ER in the sense of "I think I might be having a heart attack", but something else.  Certainly many elective procedures were postponed.
It sounds like an overall aging population was denied normally routine follow-up visits that could have prevented further deaths.

Wait, they were old?  Like 60+ old?
I assumed they were in their 20s since you act 14.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: ohplease on August 01, 2022, 05:46:02 PM
There is a very small uptick in deaths from heart disease during the pandemic both from those with or having had covid being weaker and less able to survive a heart attack and from people being reluctant to go to the hospital or clinic when experiencing symptoms due to fears of contracting covid.
How about being plain old denied the opportunity to go to the hospital due to the unnecessary lockdowns and restrictions.
How has anyone been denied the opportunity to go to the hospital in the US due to the response to the pandemic?
During the lockdowns and restrictions, many clinics, medical centers, and hospitals were closed to people needing regular visits to such places for many different types of ailments.

Both my sister and my brother-in-law were denied such visits during the near entirety of 2020.
It doesn't sound like these were visits to the ER in the sense of "I think I might be having a heart attack", but something else.  Certainly many elective procedures were postponed.
It sounds like an overall aging population was denied normally routine follow-up visits that could have prevented further deaths.
Its certainly possible.  If so it should show up in non-covid related deaths in older folks showing up in the stats (which of course take a while to come out). 

update: This Lancet article (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext) on this very subject (increased cancer deaths during the pandemic due to fewer screenings) shows an uptick.  (though again for cancer not heart disease, though its possible that might have occurred as well).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 16, 2023, 06:50:24 PM
Turns out those who got vaxxed are the ones responsible for furthering the disease due to shedding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Ait0phyQY
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on August 16, 2023, 07:32:38 PM
Turns out those who got vaxxed are the ones responsible for furthering the disease due to shedding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Ait0phyQY

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna/fact-check-mrna-cannot-be-spread-from-covid-19-vaccines-mrna-is-not-contagious-and-it-is-destroyed-by-cells-shortly-after-injection-idUSL1N2LS337

Whoops! Apparently that's just more bullshit for gullible idiots to latch onto.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on August 16, 2023, 08:12:36 PM
What about the non MRNA vaccines?  You know, like the other 38 vaccines?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2023, 04:02:57 AM
Turns out those who got vaxxed are the ones responsible for furthering the disease due to shedding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Ait0phyQY

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna/fact-check-mrna-cannot-be-spread-from-covid-19-vaccines-mrna-is-not-contagious-and-it-is-destroyed-by-cells-shortly-after-injection-idUSL1N2LS337

Whoops! Apparently that's just more bullshit for gullible idiots to latch onto.
Apparently, posting old "FACT CHECKS!!!:, in response to a now PROVEN state of affairs is the actual bullshit.

Tremendous dart player, Roundy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2023, 09:34:12 PM
Imagine happily taking an experimental genetic therapy that bypassed established medical safety precautions and then spending the next several years dismissing the doctors who have negative things to say.

https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1706751542701724019

Full segment - https://thehighwire.com/ark-videos/is-the-covid-vaccine-causing-turbo-cancers/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on September 29, 2023, 05:25:45 AM
So a cancer took 4 months to go through stages 1-3 but 6 months to go through stage 4?
Also, how does he know the kid didn't have brain cancer prior?  Did he screen him for cancer before the vaccine?

Sounds sus.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dual1ty on October 02, 2023, 06:44:41 PM
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373989367_COVID-19_vaccine-associated_mortality_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373989367_COVID-19_vaccine-associated_mortality_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere)

Abstract

Seventeen equatorial and Southern-Hemisphere countries were studied (Argentina, Australia, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Malaysia, New Zealand, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Singapore, South Africa, Suriname, Thailand, Uruguay), which comprise 9.10 % of worldwide population, 10.3 % of worldwide COVID-19 injections (vaccination rate of 1.91 injections per person, all ages), virtually every COVID-19 vaccine type and manufacturer, and span 4 continents.

In the 17 countries, there is no evidence in all-cause mortality (ACM) by time data of any beneficial effect of COVID-19 vaccines. There is no association in time between COVID-19 vaccination and any proportionate reduction in ACM. The opposite occurs.

All 17 countries have transitions to regimes of high ACM, which occur when the COVID-19 vaccines are deployed and administered. Nine of the 17 countries have no detectable excess ACM in the period of approximately one year after a pandemic was declared on 11 March 2020 by the World Health Organization (WHO), until the vaccines are rolled out (Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Paraguay, Philippines, Singapore, Suriname, Thailand, Uruguay).

Unprecedented peaks in ACM occur in the summer (January-February) of 2022 in the Southern Hemisphere, and in equatorial-latitude countries, which are synchronous with or immediately preceded by rapid COVID-19-vaccine-booster-dose rollouts (3rd or 4th doses). This phenomenon is present in every case with sufficient mortality data (15 countries). Two of the countries studied have insufficient mortality data in January-February 2022 (Argentina and Suriname).

Detailed mortality and vaccination data for Chile and Peru allow resolution by age and by dose number. It is unlikely that the observed peaks in all-cause mortality in January-February 2022 (and additionally in: July-August 2021, Chile; July-August 2022, Peru), in each of both countries and in each elderly age group, could be due to any cause other than the temporally associated rapid COVID-19-vaccine-booster-dose rollouts. Likewise, it is unlikely that the transitions to regimes of high ACM, coincident with the rollout and sustained administration of COVID-19 vaccines, in all 17 Southern-Hemisphere and equatorial-latitude countries, could be due to any cause other than the vaccines.

Synchronicity between the many peaks in ACM (in 17 countries, on 4 continents, in all elderly age groups, at different times) and associated rapid booster rollouts allows this firm conclusion regarding causality, and accurate quantification of COVID-19-vaccine toxicity.

The all-ages vaccine-dose fatality rate (vDFR), which is the ratio of inferred vaccine-induced deaths to vaccine doses delivered in a population, is quantified for the January-February 2022 ACM peak to fall in the range 0.02 % (New Zealand) to 0.20% (Uruguay). In Chile and Peru, the vDFR increases exponentially with age (doubling approximately every 4 years of age), and is largest for the latest booster doses, reaching approximately 5 % in the 90+ years age groups (1 death per 20 injections of dose 4). Comparable results occur for the Northern Hemisphere, as found in previous articles (India, Israel, USA).

We quantify the overall all-ages vDFR for the 17 countries to be (0.126 ± 0.004) %, which would imply 17.0 ± 0.5 million COVID-19 vaccine deaths worldwide, from 13.50 billion injections up to 2 September 2023. This would correspond to a mass iatrogenic event that killed (0.213 ± 0.006) % of the world population (1 death per 470 living persons, in less than 3 years), and did not measurably prevent any deaths.
The overall risk of death induced by injection with the COVID-19 vaccines in actual populations, inferred from excess all-cause mortality and its synchronicity with rollouts, is globally pervasive and much larger than reported in clinical trials, adverse effect monitoring, and cause-of-death statistics from death certificates, by 3 orders of magnitude (1,000-fold greater).
The large age dependence and large values of vDFR quantified in this study of 17 countries on 4 continents, using all the main COVID-19 vaccine types and manufacturers, should induce governments to immediately end the baseless public health policy of prioritizing elderly residents for injection with COVID-19 vaccines, until valid risk-benefit analyses are made.


7.Conclusion

   7.1 Causality proven

The 17 countries studied (Argentina, Australia, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Malaysia, New Zealand, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Singapore, South Africa, Suriname, Thailand, Uruguay) comprise 9.10 % of worldwide population, 10.3 % of worldwide COVID-19 injections (vaccination rate of 1.91 injections per person, all ages), virtually every COVID-19 vaccine type and manufacturer, and span 4 continents.
The scientific tests for causality are amply satisfied, as extensively demonstrated in these sections of the present paper:


Also, there are no known facts that disprove the inferred and quantitative causal relation between the observed excess ACM peaks and the temporally associated COVID-19 vaccine and booster rollouts.


   7.2 Actual vaccine mortality much larger than that incorrectly inferred from faulty data

There can be little doubt that the peaks in excess ACM are caused by the COVID-19 vaccinations, with a mean all-ages fatal toxicity by injection of vDFR = (0.126 ± 0.004) %, or approximately 1 death per 800 injections, which is reasonably expected to be globally representative.

This is a staggering number, compared to what is generally believed about traditional vaccines, which is approximately one serious adverse effect per million (Malhotra, 2023). It is three orders of magnitude (one thousand times) larger.

In contrast to this large number from ACM data, the effective all-ages vDFR values inferred from other sources — the small number of autopsy confirmations, adverse effect monitoring of deaths, the small number of national vaccine injury compensation payments for deaths, pharmaceutical-industry clinical trial reports, and death-certificates and corresponding government-reported cause-of-death statistics — for COVID-19 vaccines are significantly smaller, again by orders of magnitude.

Therefore, we conclude with a high degree of certainty that adverse-effect monitoring, clinical trial reports, and death-certificate statistics greatly underestimate the fatal toxicity of the injections.

The large gap between incorrectly inferred and actual population-level vDFR values probably occurs because of systemic avoidance of admitting the injections as a possible cause of death in frail and vulnerable patients. For example, the cause(s) of death will be attributed to particular organ or system failures, without reference to the vaccine, even if the injection was recent and the patient was previously stable.

The measured all-ages vDFR of (0.126 ± 0.004) % implies that 17.0 ± 0.5 million COVID-19 vaccine deaths would have occurred globally, up to 2 September 2023. It appears that the global COVID-19 vaccination campaign was in effect a mass iatrogenic event that killed (0.213 ± 0.006) % of the world population (1 death per 470 living persons, in less than 3 years), and did not measurably prevent any deaths.


   7.3 The policy of prioritizing elderly residents for COVID-19 vaccination must be ended

The detailed age and dose-discriminated data for Chile and Peru allows unprecedented certainty in quantifying the age dependence of the fatal toxicity from COVID-19 vaccines. The risk of death per injection (vDFR) increases exponentially with age, for 60+ years ages, doubling approximately every 4 years in age, and attains values of approximately 5 % for 90+ year-olds subjected to dose 4 (2nd booster). vDFR = 5 % corresponds to 1 death per 20 injections of dose 4 for 90+ year-olds.
These vDFR values are consistent with all prior evaluations based on ACM:


The population-level age-dependence of vDFR (doubling every 4 years in age) and its large magnitude should induce governments to immediately implement an absolute pause on the baseless public health policy of prioritizing elderly people for injection with COVID-19 vaccines, until valid risk-benefit analyses are made and publicly reported. The same may be true of seasonal influenza vaccines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 02, 2023, 07:24:55 PM
Ssooo... everyone who took vaccines in those countries is now dead, right?

"The COVID-19 vaccines did not save lives and appear to be lethal toxic agents"
Because lethal toxic agents generally don't NOT kill you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dual1ty on October 02, 2023, 08:13:46 PM
Ssooo... everyone who took vaccines in those countries is now dead, right?

"The COVID-19 vaccines did not save lives and appear to be lethal toxic agents"
Because lethal toxic agents generally don't NOT kill you.

Oh, so you think lethal means there's a 100% chance that it kills you? That's cute.

Nobody cares about your triggered ignorant outburst. The paper I posted talks about risk of death per injection (vDFR), so it's all there for anyone who cares (aka not you, the happy vaxxed idjot).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 02, 2023, 08:35:31 PM
Ssooo... everyone who took vaccines in those countries is now dead, right?

"The COVID-19 vaccines did not save lives and appear to be lethal toxic agents"
Because lethal toxic agents generally don't NOT kill you.

Oh, so you think lethal means there's a 100% chance that it kills you? That's cute.

Nobody cares about your triggered ignorant outburst. The paper I posted talks about risk of death per injection (vDFR), so it's all there for anyone who cares (aka not you, the happy vaxxed idjot).

Quote
We quantify the overall all-ages vDFR for the 17 countries to be (0.126 ± 0.004) %, which would imply 17.0 ± 0.5 million COVID-19 vaccine deaths worldwide, from 13.50 billion injections up to 2 September 2023.

So they're saying "If our numbers are right, all those people died." and not "Here is the data of all those dead people".

Also, yes, lethal means 100% chance to kill you.  Well... at least 95% because some people get lucky.  That's kinda what lethal means.  What definition of Lethal do you use?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dual1ty on October 02, 2023, 08:43:32 PM
Quote
We quantify the overall all-ages vDFR for the 17 countries to be (0.126 ± 0.004) %, which would imply 17.0 ± 0.5 million COVID-19 vaccine deaths worldwide, from 13.50 billion injections up to 2 September 2023.

So they're saying "If our numbers are right, all those people died." and not "Here is the data of all those dead people".

Also, yes, lethal means 100% chance to kill you.  Well... at least 95% because some people get lucky.  That's kinda what lethal means.  What definition of Lethal do you use?

They are official numbers, so what is your point supposed to be? GO read the paper to find out more about it (and don't come back to this thread until you do because again, no one cares about your triggered ignorant outbursts).

"Lethality means 95-100% chance of death because I say so, that's how I debunked this paper!" LOL
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 02, 2023, 09:25:16 PM
Quote
We quantify the overall all-ages vDFR for the 17 countries to be (0.126 ± 0.004) %, which would imply 17.0 ± 0.5 million COVID-19 vaccine deaths worldwide, from 13.50 billion injections up to 2 September 2023.

So they're saying "If our numbers are right, all those people died." and not "Here is the data of all those dead people".

Also, yes, lethal means 100% chance to kill you.  Well... at least 95% because some people get lucky.  That's kinda what lethal means.  What definition of Lethal do you use?

They are official numbers, so what is your point supposed to be? GO read the paper to find out more about it (and don't come back to this thread until you do because again, no one cares about your triggered ignorant outbursts).

"Lethality means 95-100% chance of death because I say so, that's how I debunked this paper!" LOL

While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dual1ty on October 02, 2023, 09:33:45 PM
While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.

You and I on the same page? Nice joke.

If something has 0.1% lethality it still means it can kill you. That's what lethality means if you didn't guess. Even 0.1% is pretty significant - I wouldn't want to take that chance, would you? COVID vaxx have up to 1% lethality according to the study (so I guess you did take that chance after all, and then some). And that says nothing about damages in the living.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 03, 2023, 05:14:48 AM
While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.

You and I on the same page? Nice joke.

If something has 0.1% lethality it still means it can kill you. That's what lethality means if you didn't guess. Even 0.1% is pretty significant - I wouldn't want to take that chance, would you? COVID vaxx have up to 1% lethality according to the study (so I guess you did take that chance after all, and then some). And that says nothing about damages in the living.
Really? So... showering is lethal?  Peanuta are lethal?  Sugar is lethal?  God damn man... you must be one hell of a coward!

And yes, 1% is about right.  I mentioned this before.  In some people, the vaccine causes bloodclots to form after infection with covid resulting in a 1% death rate(roughly).
Also some are deathly allergic.

Without the vaccine, its 5%.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dual1ty on October 03, 2023, 07:14:35 AM
Like I said, I posted the study for those who care (aka not you, the happy vaxxed idjot who believes vaxx deaths & damages are still caused by COVID somehow).

No point in arguing with someone like you who just swallows any official narrative and explanation and dismisses everything else including facts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 03, 2023, 10:49:28 AM
While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.

You and I on the same page? Nice joke.

If something has 0.1% lethality it still means it can kill you. That's what lethality means if you didn't guess. Even 0.1% is pretty significant - I wouldn't want to take that chance, would you? COVID vaxx have up to 1% lethality according to the study (so I guess you did take that chance after all, and then some). And that says nothing about damages in the living.
Really? So... showering is lethal?  Peanuta are lethal?  Sugar is lethal?  God damn man... you must be one hell of a coward!

And yes, 1% is about right.  I mentioned this before.  In some people, the vaccine causes bloodclots to form after infection with covid resulting in a 1% death rate(roughly).
Also some are deathly allergic.

Without the vaccine, its 5%.
Where did you come up with a 5% death rate for Covid-19?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 03, 2023, 11:09:38 AM
While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.

You and I on the same page? Nice joke.

If something has 0.1% lethality it still means it can kill you. That's what lethality means if you didn't guess. Even 0.1% is pretty significant - I wouldn't want to take that chance, would you? COVID vaxx have up to 1% lethality according to the study (so I guess you did take that chance after all, and then some). And that says nothing about damages in the living.
Really? So... showering is lethal?  Peanuta are lethal?  Sugar is lethal?  God damn man... you must be one hell of a coward!

And yes, 1% is about right.  I mentioned this before.  In some people, the vaccine causes bloodclots to form after infection with covid resulting in a 1% death rate(roughly).
Also some are deathly allergic.

Without the vaccine, its 5%.
Where did you come up with a 5% death rate for Covid-19?
The study I read about it.  Which i haven't found again.  But it tracks with global average.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dual1ty on October 03, 2023, 11:18:13 AM
"Excess mortality due to COVID" before vaccines translates to people who were mostly killed in hospitals and nursing homes due to aggressive "medical" practices and isolation torture while given shit food and no sun. There were also those who died at home mostly from heart attacks or strokes because the ambulances didn't assist. And even in the worst places it wasn't 5%. More like 3% max. and only for a short period of time until the weaker ones got culled by COVID protocol and COVID hysteria. Meaning that no one was dying until these two things were put in practice. Next came the vaxx and that's when more people started dying again. Just look at the study I posted which is conclusive (no, not you Dave).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 20, 2023, 12:43:06 AM
Looks like you guys have been injecting and boosting yourselves with monkey DNA that was not disclosed to regulators.

https://web.archive.org/web/20231019192915/https://www.theepochtimes.com/world/exclusive-health-canada-confirms-undisclosed-presence-of-dna-sequence-in-pfizer-shot-5513277

EXCLUSIVE: Health Canada Confirms Undisclosed Presence of DNA Sequence in Pfizer Shot


Health Canada's response so far is essentially "this is fine"

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 20, 2023, 04:42:49 AM
Quote
It's important for the public to realize that the SV40 sequence in the vaccine is NOT the cancer-causing SV40 large T antigen, which would be a very significant cancer risk,” Dr. Buckhaults told The Epoch Times.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AATW on October 20, 2023, 08:31:15 AM
Health Canada's response so far is essentially "this is fine"
Probably because they're basing their conclusions on evidence and expertise rather than screaming headlines from sites which pander to their particular biases?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 20, 2023, 09:42:33 AM
Its also interesting how Tom only trusts with his own eyes and experience(zentetic method?) for planet shape but seems odly ok with trusting some person at a bias news site that everyone who took the vaccine has cancer from monkey dna. Or something.  I'm not really sure how that works or if it was monkey dna or a section of rna from a virus that only infects monkeys.... Its all a bit confusing from the article.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on October 21, 2023, 08:20:19 AM
While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.

You and I on the same page? Nice joke.

If something has 0.1% lethality it still means it can kill you. That's what lethality means if you didn't guess. Even 0.1% is pretty significant - I wouldn't want to take that chance, would you? COVID vaxx have up to 1% lethality according to the study (so I guess you did take that chance after all, and then some). And that says nothing about damages in the living.
Really? So... showering is lethal?  Peanuta are lethal?  Sugar is lethal?  God damn man... you must be one hell of a coward!

And yes, 1% is about right.  I mentioned this before.  In some people, the vaccine causes bloodclots to form after infection with covid resulting in a 1% death rate(roughly).
Also some are deathly allergic.

Without the vaccine, its 5%.
Where did you come up with a 5% death rate for Covid-19?
The study I read about it.  Which i haven't found again.  But it tracks with global average.
You need to find that study again, because the death rate for Covid is nowhere near 5%.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on October 21, 2023, 10:09:48 AM
While I do that, please define lethal for me.  Just so we're on the same page.

You and I on the same page? Nice joke.

If something has 0.1% lethality it still means it can kill you. That's what lethality means if you didn't guess. Even 0.1% is pretty significant - I wouldn't want to take that chance, would you? COVID vaxx have up to 1% lethality according to the study (so I guess you did take that chance after all, and then some). And that says nothing about damages in the living.
Really? So... showering is lethal?  Peanuta are lethal?  Sugar is lethal?  God damn man... you must be one hell of a coward!

And yes, 1% is about right.  I mentioned this before.  In some people, the vaccine causes bloodclots to form after infection with covid resulting in a 1% death rate(roughly).
Also some are deathly allergic.

Without the vaccine, its 5%.
Where did you come up with a 5% death rate for Covid-19?
The study I read about it.  Which i haven't found again.  But it tracks with global average.
You need to find that study again, because the death rate for Covid is nowhere near 5%.

I do!  Wish I bookmarked it.  Haven't found it yet. :/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on October 24, 2023, 03:45:16 AM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-44942-6

Quote
Japan implemented its nationwide vaccination program against COVID-19 in 2021, immunizing more than one million people (approximately 1%) a day. However, the direct and indirect impacts of the program at the population level have yet to be fully evaluated. To assess the vaccine effectiveness during the Delta variant (B.1.617.2) epidemic in 2021, we used a renewal process model. A transmission model was fitted to the confirmed cases from 17 February to 30 November 2021. In the absence of vaccination, the cumulative numbers of infections and deaths during the study period were estimated to be 63.3 million (95% confidence interval [CI] 63.2–63.6) and 364,000 (95% CI 363–366), respectively; the actual numbers of infections and deaths were 4.7 million and 10,000, respectively. Were the vaccination implemented 14 days earlier, there could have been 54% and 48% fewer cases and deaths, respectively, than the actual numbers. We demonstrated the very high effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccination in Japan during 2021, which reduced mortality by more than 97% compared with the counterfactual scenario. The timing of expanding vaccination and vaccine recipients could be key to mitigating the disease burden of COVID-19. Rapid and proper decision making based on firm epidemiological input is vital.