The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: proponent on June 17, 2019, 06:34:32 PM
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People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines-horizon are arcs with very small radians-curvature.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians-curvature, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.
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It is normal for a lot of people to have problems with physical multi-dimensional imagination.
Much more people that we think can't really control a tridimensional computer mouse, for example, like navigating inside a 3D maze.
A lot of people can't learn the formulas for a Rubik's cube because of that.
There is a simple test, a rolling tesseract, image below. In the rolling, try to find an external square made by 4 arms, and then try to follow that same square as it turns inside as a trapezoid and return to outside as a square. If you can do it, you have a good ability for 3D, if not, sorry, you will have difficulties to imagine yourself floating in the middle of the Atlantic and looking in all directions like on top of a water ball, seeing little around. And yes, a row boat or a life-saver boat with 2 ft tall would disappear from your view (if floating on a life-saver) pretty easy in less than two miles. Forget the 8"/mile rule, the water movement, depressions, splashes, make your visible area really short.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Tesseract.gif)
About the Suns on the bottom of the sea, hmmm, not sure, myth. I tend to go with science that explains in a pretty neat way the planet's molten core, temperature, iron concentration, magma, tectonic plates, volcano activities, etc. If you ever pay attention to some cake in the oven, releasing steam, would understand better volcano activity.
(https://d36tnp772eyphs.cloudfront.net/blogs/1/2018/08/Mount-Fuji.jpg)
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People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines are arcs with very small radians.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't see where this "twist" is coming from that you describe. Can you explain further?
As for a picture or diagram of this, I suggest https://earth.google.com/web
If you enable the Gridlines, you get lat & long lines. Are those the "sea lines" you are talking about? I don't see them twisting. Please let me know if I can help further.
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As for a picture or diagram of this, I suggest https://earth.google.com/web
The web page is trying to blackmail you to use Chrome. Tried in Maxthon MX5, and tried in Edge, no hit.
People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines are arcs with very small radians.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.
If you are in the middle of the sea, standing in small boat, your eye is 6 feet (1.8 m) above the water and your horizon is 5 km away in all directions.
From that altitude the Apparent Horizon Dip is 0.0449 degrees.
(If you saw a protractor you know how small is one degree, now imagine how much smaller is 0.0449 degrees. Invisible.)
Looking at your horizon circle from that position is like looking at hula-hoop horizontally around your head at the eye level.
It will look straight wherever you look.
As you go higher, the Apparent Horizon Dip will be bigger. Horizon will be lower, but until you reach some high altitude you still can't see the dip with naked eye.
You need sextant, quadrant, theodolite, astrolabe, ... to measure it.
For example at the height of 1000 feet (330 m) you will have Apparent Horizon Dip of just 0.5 degrees (and your horizon is 67 km away in all directions).
Now your hula-hoop around your head is a bit lower, at the level of your nose.
It still looks pretty straight whichever direction you look at it.
If you go much higher, let's say 40 000 feet (12 000 m), your Apparent Horizon Dip is 3.28 degrees (and your horizon is 426 km away all around you).
Now your hula-hoop is down to the level of your mouth, and you begin to see some slight curviness from that angle, if you look carefuly.
If you go even higher you will begin to see the curviness even better.
From ISS (400 km high) your horizon will be 2470 km away and your Apparent Horizon Dip 18.4 degrees.
Your hula-hoop will now be somewhere around your shoulders and you will clearly see it curved.
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I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
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I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with a high middle and a low middle, it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
Yes, it is hard to understand. Can you diagram-out what you're saying? Because I can't make heads nor tails as to what you are trying to convey in words.
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What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.
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What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.
All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
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What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.
All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
I am testing whether I can reply you directly. I am a new user
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I'm guessing English may not be your first language. I am impressed by your ability to speak multiple languages, but I fear something is getting lost in translation.
As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words. Draw us a diagram.
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What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.
All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
I am testing whether I can reply you directly. I am a new user
That's ok. As ICanScienceThat said, a picture is worth a thousand words.
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What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.
All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
I am testing whether I can reply you directly. I am a new user
That's ok. As ICanScienceThat said, a picture is worth a thousand words.
It's hard to draw because you're not with me. It would be easier if you were.
What I'm saying is that If a sea line has a radian in the vertical direction, it will not be able to close around.
If it's straight in the vertical direction, it's not a circle when it's closed around it.
So it turns out that the sea line around the observer on the surface of the ocean can only include a flat surface.
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I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
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I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
I want you to flatten a disk, and then you look at the prominent radians on the left and the right. Can you see that?If you can see it, please think it over and discuss it with me.
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It is normal for a lot of people to have problems with physical multi-dimensional imagination.
Much more people that we think can't really control a tridimensional computer mouse, for example, like navigating inside a 3D maze.
A lot of people can't learn the formulas for a Rubik's cube because of that.
There is a simple test, a rolling tesseract, image below. In the rolling, try to find an external square made by 4 arms, and then try to follow that same square as it turns inside as a trapezoid and return to outside as a square. If you can do it, you have a good ability for 3D, if not, sorry, you will have difficulties to imagine yourself floating in the middle of the Atlantic and looking in all directions like on top of a water ball, seeing little around. And yes, a row boat or a life-saver boat with 2 ft tall would disappear from your view (if floating on a life-saver) pretty easy in less than two miles. Forget the 8"/mile rule, the water movement, depressions, splashes, make your visible area really short.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Tesseract.gif)
About the Suns on the bottom of the sea, hmmm, not sure, myth. I tend to go with science that explains in a pretty neat way the planet's molten core, temperature, iron concentration, magma, tectonic plates, volcano activities, etc. If you ever pay attention to some cake in the oven, releasing steam, would understand better volcano activity.
(https://d36tnp772eyphs.cloudfront.net/blogs/1/2018/08/Mount-Fuji.jpg)
I had no problem with 3D vision. When I was 9 years old, my teacher asked everyone what the conical surface unfolding was. I quickly imagined it and told him that it was a fan.
Volcanoes only appear in or near the ocean, don't they?XD
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I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
I want you to flatten a disk, and then you look at the prominent radians on the left and the right. Can you see that?If you can see it, please think it over and discuss it with me.
You mean "radiuses". (Or "radii" if you use Latin plural of "radius". Both are correct.)
You don't have to flatten it.
Those radiuses will create diameter, the line that connects two opposite sides of the horizon around you through the spot where you stand.
If you extend that diameter on both sides beyond your horizon you will not be able to see it any more, but it will continue dropping around the Earth like a saddle collar around horse's belly.
(That circle will have center in the center of the planet and have its own diameter of 12700 km.)
In that case the big circle around the planet, together with the small circle of your horizon around you, will look like an engagement ring.
And you will be the diamond in the middle of the smaller circle.
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Here's a diagram. Wherever the observer is in the sea, no matter what height they are at, they are looking out at a Spherical Cap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff/lossless-page1-220px-Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff.png)
The observer will be above line h, above the surface.
The edge of the spherical cap is equidistant from the observer in all directions.
For an observer somewhere above the surface, on a continuation of line h, he or she will be able to see the blue area, whereas the red will be invisible to them.
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I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
I want you to flatten a disk, and then you look at the prominent radians on the left and the right. Can you see that?If you can see it, please think it over and discuss it with me.
You mean "radiuses". (Or "radii" if you use Latin plural of "radius". Both are correct.)
You don't have to flatten it.
Those radiuses will create diameter, the line that connects two opposite sides of the horizon around you through the spot where you stand.
If you extend that diameter on both sides beyond your horizon you will not be able to see it any more, but it will continue dropping around the Earth like a saddle collar around horse's belly.
(That circle will have center in the center of the planet and have its own diameter of 12700 km.)
In that case the big circle around the planet, together with the small circle of your horizon around you, will look like an engagement ring.
And you will be the diamond in the middle of the smaller circle.
I know you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm sure you don't want to know, and I have no interest in arguing with you about the absurdity of your argument.You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.
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You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.
Perhaps you could explain WHY anyone would want to "level this disc", rather than getting annoyed with others?
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Here's a diagram. Wherever the observer is in the sea, no matter what height they are at, they are looking out at a Spherical Cap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff/lossless-page1-220px-Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff.png)
The observer will be above line h, above the surface.
The edge of the spherical cap is equidistant from the observer in all directions.
For an observer somewhere above the surface, on a continuation of line h, he or she will be able to see the blue area, whereas the red will be invisible to them.
Your picture works well as an aid.
If you look closely at this graph, if the sea line has radians in the vertical direction, it cannot go around in a closed pattern.
If the sea line is straight in the vertical direction, as it is in this picture, forming a closed circle, then the circle will look like an ellipse like this.
Are sea lines actually ellipses from any Angle?In fact, where are the more and more pronounced radians on the left and right sides of the ellipse?Sea lines in perspective are only 2 π times longer than visibility?
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You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.
Perhaps you could explain WHY anyone would want to "level this disc", rather than getting annoyed with others?
What you say is reasonable, and I will explain it to you, so look at the picture you have made, and see if the circle of sea line is a flat circle.
f you do, please review what I said above and think about it before replying. Don't reply without considering what I said. It's not a discussion but a soliloquy.
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Here's how I look at it, with example photos I took myself, and supporting diagram to illustrate the principle.
The Isle of May lighthouse, in the Firth of Forth, Scotland, photographed from onshore, at Pencraig viewpoint, near East Linton.
EDIT to correct malformed link;
(https://i.imgur.com/vQ7JMB7.jpg)
End EDIT
Closeup/crop from this;
(https://i.imgur.com/nGUIqky.jpg)
My camera height was 100m
The lighthouse tops out around 73-75m (the light height is classified as 73m, so let's assume the roof above the light glass adds another 2m or so)
IF the land and the seas around this Isle were truly flat, surely my descending sightline through the top of the lighthouse (100m downward to 73m) MUST meet the flat plane of the sea at some point? Simple geometry dictates this.
(https://i.imgur.com/AtvDpvU.jpg)
My sightline is not meeting the sea. There's only sky behind the lighthouse.
Conclusion; the land and seas, around East Lothian at least, are decidedly not flat.
Perhaps, OP, you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?
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Here's how I look at it, with example photos I took myself, and supporting diagram to illustrate the principle.
The Isle of May lighthouse, in the Firth of Forth, Scotland, photographed from onshore, at Pencraig viewpoint, near East Linton.
(http://[img]https://i.imgur.com/vQ7JMB7.jpg)[/img]
Closeup/crop from this;
(https://i.imgur.com/nGUIqky.jpg)
My camera height was 100m
The lighthouse tops out around 73-75m (the light height is classified as 73m, so let's assume the roof above the light glass adds another 2m or so)
IF the land and the seas around this Isle were truly flat, surely my descending sightline through the top of the lighthouse (100m downward to 73m) MUST meet the flat plane of the sea at some point? Simple geometry dictates this.
(https://i.imgur.com/AtvDpvU.jpg)
My sightline is not meeting the sea. There's only sky behind the lighthouse.
Conclusion; the land and seas, around East Lothian at least, are decidedly not flat.
Perhaps, OP, you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?
I can't see the picture you want to show, because it belongs to Google.So I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying, please answer my question, and if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.
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Here's the first picture, which seemed to have a malformed link at my first attempt
(https://i.imgur.com/vQ7JMB7.jpg)
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I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying
>>> Therein lies the problem. Perhaps you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?
if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.
>>> You said earlier, "look at this graph", but you provided no graph. I don't know what you mean by "sea line". I don't know what you mean by "radians" or "vertical radians". A diagram might help.
The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.
It has relevance, if only to demonstrate how diagrams and photos would help us understand what you're getting at.
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff/lossless-page1-220px-Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff.png)
Please take this image, copy it to an editing program, and draw upon it what you mean by your "sea line", "radian" and "vertical radian". Then repost it here, so we can see what you mean.
Please.
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff/lossless-page1-220px-Spherical_cap_diagram.tiff.png)
Please take this image, copy it to an editing program, and draw upon it what you mean by your "sea line", "radian" and "vertical radian". Then repost it here, so we can see what you mean.
Please.
I don't know how to use software to express my meaning, but I think I have explained it clearly.If there's anything in the question that you don't understand, you can make it a separate case, and I'll see if I can explain it.
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... I think I have explained it clearly. If there's anything in the question that you don't understand, you can make it a separate case, and I'll see if I can explain it.
I refer you back to reply #24. To my text in red, highlighted within the quote.
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I don't know how to use software to express my meaning
Doesn't have to involve software. Print the image on paper, and draw on it with pen or pencil. Then scan and upload.
Like this;
(https://i.imgur.com/66QCw6M.jpg)
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I don't know how to use software to express my meaning
Doesn't have to involve software. Print the image on paper, and draw on it with pen or pencil. Then scan and upload.
Like this;
(https://i.imgur.com/66QCw6M.jpg)
i will try
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I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying
>>> Therein lies the problem. Perhaps you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?
if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.
>>> You said earlier, "look at this graph", but you provided no graph. I don't know what you mean by "sea line". I don't know what you mean by "radians" or "vertical radians". A diagram might help.
The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.
It has relevance, if only to demonstrate how diagrams and photos would help us understand what you're getting at.
I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.
In the vertical direction up and down, it cannot have radians that are always in the same direction, or it cannot close, and I believe that's not the explanation.
So it's a circle.But if it's a circle, look at the ellipse I've shown. Even the smallest radians can be easily observed at the left and right ends of an arc, because there, they quickly grow larger and the arc closes.
But no such radians are observed in reality, right?
And if this is an ellipse, imagine what happens when the observer goes around in place to look at this line.
Because of the phenomenon of perspective, every component of this distant line has been shrunk, so this line is also much more than 2 PI times the observer's visibility. So this line can't be a circle, right?
I don't think I'm really saying a complicated thing.
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I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.
So, you're portraying the observer as being in the centre of this ellipse, and you're depicting it from an external viewpoint?
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I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.
So, you're portraying the observer as being in the centre of this ellipse, and you're depicting it from an external viewpoint?
Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.
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Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.
If the observer is IN the circle, this cannot be the observer's perspective. We're looking at the circle/ellipse from the outside, surely?
You're looking at an eclipse because you're depicting a circle when viewed from slightly above the plane of the circle. If it was edge-on, it would be a straight line.
No?
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Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.
If the observer is IN the circle, this cannot be the observer's perspective. We're looking at the circle/ellipse from the outside, surely?
You're looking at an eclipse because you're depicting a circle when viewed from slightly above the plane of the circle. If it was edge-on, it would be a straight line.
No?
Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.Is it possible that the sea line ahead is straight and the sea line behind is straight?Can two lines make a circle?If you say it's just a small radian, I've shown you by drawing that you can see radians on either side of the ellipse.
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Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.
Let me ask you this question.
Why are you being so effing rude and obnoxious, when all I'm trying to do is understand what you're talking about?
If you're going to write in English, but it's not your first or native language, then perhaps accept that you might not be expressing yourself very clearly.
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(https://i.imgur.com/GhO3Gpb.jpg)
The observer is at the top, the green dot, and your ellipse is in purple.
Is this what you mean?
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Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.
Let me ask you this question.
Why are you being so effing rude and obnoxious, when all I'm trying to do is understand what you're talking about?
If you're going to write in English, but it's not your first or native language, then perhaps accept that you might not be expressing yourself very clearly.
I don't know English. Please forgive me. That's the problem.
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two.But it's not going to happen.
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(https://i.imgur.com/GhO3Gpb.jpg)
The observer is at the top, the green dot, and your ellipse is in purple.
Is this what you mean?
In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it. I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say.I don't know what you mean by the green dot.
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I don't know English. Please forgive me.
OK.
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two. But it's not going to happen.
The observer would never be at this point, since the observation point is outwith the circle.
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In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it.
>>> What's the point, then, if you're not going to look at what I draw in order to find common ground?
I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say. I don't know what you mean by the green dot.
It represents where the observer would be in the middle of the ocean, looking out over a spherical cap. The ellipse represents the limit of his vision. Is this what you mean by "the sea line" ?
You can SEE the green dot in the image, can't you?
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I don't know English. Please forgive me.
OK.
thank you~
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two. But it's not going to happen.
The observer would never be at this point, since the observation point is outwith the circle.
Yes, so there's nothing wrong with my description.
I'm trying to say that the situation with the sea line actually proves itself that the sea is a plane, because it can only be a plane, and the sea line doesn't appear to be a circle.
This is an interesting way to use this reply~
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In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it.
>>> What's the point, then, if you're not going to look at what I draw in order to find common ground?
I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say. I don't know what you mean by the green dot.
It represents where the observer would be in the middle of the ocean, looking out over a spherical cap. The ellipse represents the limit of his vision. Is this what you mean by "the sea line" ?
You can SEE the green dot in the image, can't you?
I can't see the green dots in the first picture you gave me. I'm not color blind.I told you I couldn't see the second one.
I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.Since I have explained my point of view with my own image, if you want to give advice, please point it out.I'll try to figure it out.
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I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.
Why the feck should I bother with you, then?
If you're going to wilfully ignore what others do to try to interact with you, then why are you here?
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I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.
Why the feck should I bother with you, then?
If you're going to wilfully ignore what others do to try to interact with you, then why are you here?
Well, I'll just take that as an end. Thank you for coming.
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I know you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm sure you don't want to know, and I have no interest in arguing with you about the absurdity of your argument.You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.
Ok, I won't reply to you, but if you flatten the shield with Flat Earth sea surface then your diameter will just stretch
all the way left and right into straight line. It will look like the center of a soccer field, with the line stretched indefinitely.
Was that what you were talking about?
(In that case your horizon would be much wider than if the Earth was Globe and won't be limited by the visibility on a sphere.
From altitude of 1.8 meters you would see much farther than just 5 km.)
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An "arc" that closes is not an "arc", it is a "circle".
What you mean by arc that closes?
What you mean by "elipse" on a oblate spherical globe or even on FE? Elipses are 2D objects, have two focal points, a globe only one, an extruded 3D elipse is called oblate sphere or spheroid.
(http://www.softschools.com/math/calculus/images/finding_the_foci_of_an_ellipse_img_2.png)
An extruded sphere is called prolate spheroid.
(https://www.web-formulas.com/displayImage.aspx?imageid=480)
Once over the open ocean, you don't see any arc, impossible, you see a patch of 'leveled' water all around you, limited by the "circle" of horizon due the curvature.
One tip, don't be irritated by people not understanding what you are saying. If one person can't understand you, perhaps is that person, but it seems nobody can understand what you are writing. Rethink, rephrase.
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If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
What you really mean by "sea line"? The horizon? If yes, it is not a line. A line is something that connects two points, and it is straight, if not it will be a "curve".
So, rephrasing your first sentence, "If the sea curve is an arc, with high in the middle and low on the sides, it will not close around, It's a simple fact".... and NO, it can close on the bottom. An arc can be part of a round circle or ellipsoid closed object. Why you say it can not close around? as a fact... ? That is what nobody is understanding. What you mean by that? By any chance are you saying it will not "close around horizontally"? If yes, you need to put more words in the text, so we don't get confused.
Your second sentence makes no sense at all. "If the sea line(?) is straight and the sea surface is a sphere, the sea line(?) will close in a circle".
Again, this is a very difficult (for me) to understand what you mean by "sea line". What you mean by "sea line is straight"?
The sea surface is not a sphere, never is. A sphere represents a globe, the Earth's oceans do not make a globe, they are over a globe, the patches of land above the water makes it not a spherical water. Think with me, when you submerge an orange under water, still a spherical orange, even when you remove from water and it still all wet, still a spherical orange. The water could be covering a spherical orange, spherical planet and ultimate copying its format, but it is not a sphere.
Rethink and rephrase, mostly about the "sea line".
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I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.Since I have explained my point of view with my own image, if you want to give advice, please point it out.I'll try to figure it out.
The arguments of this guy remind me of those of a certain Sceptimatic who years ago flooded the other site with an incredible pile of nonsense.
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Dear proponent,
Let me be extremely clear. I do not understand you. You use certain words incorrectly, but it is clear from your pattern that you don't realize this. In order for us to understand you, please DEFINE THESE WORDS:
"sea line"
"radian"
I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?
My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?
If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?
If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that.
I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.
How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?
The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.
Is that what we're talking about?
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If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle.
That is the thing... the distance you can see the horizon on open sea is not long, the curvature exist but you can not see it, because you are in the middle of the very narrow and small angle "dome" of water. The curvature is not on the horizon in front of you, understand that, the curvature is what makes the horizon, FROM YOU to where you can see. Imagine a million horizontal concentric circles, you are in the middle of the smaller, and this smaller is a little bit above the others, you can't see the curvature, you see the larger circles disappearing all around you.
The image below, the ridges from the center to the bottom are the curvature. If you are small (cat) on the top, those ridges will produce a horizon for you, after that horizon you can not see the roof anymore. May be the horizon coincide with one of the horizontal circles. The circles you can see have no curvature to the ground, they make just flat horizontal circles around you, and because you are in the center, you see a straight (leveled line) circle. This is the same reason why you can not see "curvature" of the ocean, because they are much more pronounced on distance from you to away from you, not on horizon. The reason is that the far horizon over the sea, even if you are on land, is just a piece of such circle all around you when you are on open ocean, same explanation, can't see a curved horizon, only if you are very far and over, making this ball smaller to see the whole at once.
If the Earth was a flat polished sphere, like a billiard ball, any place you go you would see a vast area around you, perfect horizontal circled horizon, not curved horizontally.
(http://www.trentglass.co.uk/uploadfile/20150922175319949.jpg)
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A few weeks ago, I had a good think about the panoramic photo thing. (That's why I used it as an example.) It turns out to be something of a mind bender. We've all seen panoramic 360 degree photos. If the horizon curves (even just a few pixels), how can we take a panoramic photo? Right? That's a good one, honestly. Like say we're up 500 ft above the water on an island. Take a still frame. If you blow it up, you'll see a few pixels of curvature in that single frame. So now take a panoramic photo. How can that work?
Give THAT some thought. :)
(Don't worry. It totally still works. It's just not as trivial as most of these questions are.)
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Depending on how it's made, panoramas generally aren't much good at showing horizon curvature because most techniques involve keeping the camera perfectly level and physically rotating the camera along the horizon.
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If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle.
That is the thing... the distance you can see the horizon on open sea is not long, the curvature exist but you can not see it, because you are in the middle of the very narrow and small angle "dome" of water. The curvature is not on the horizon in front of you, understand that, the curvature is what makes the horizon, FROM YOU to where you can see. Imagine a million horizontal concentric circles, you are in the middle of the smaller, and this smaller is a little bit above the others, you can't see the curvature, you see the larger circles disappearing all around you.
The image below, the ridges from the center to the bottom are the curvature. If you are small (cat) on the top, those ridges will produce a horizon for you, after that horizon you can not see the roof anymore. May be the horizon coincide with one of the horizontal circles. The circles you can see have no curvature to the ground, they make just flat horizontal circles around you, and because you are in the center, you see a straight (leveled line) circle. This is the same reason why you can not see "curvature" of the ocean, because they are much more pronounced on distance from you to away from you, not on horizon. The reason is that the far horizon over the sea, even if you are on land, is just a piece of such circle all around you when you are on open ocean, same explanation, can't see a curved horizon, only if you are very far and over, making this ball smaller to see the whole at once.
If the Earth was a flat polished sphere, like a billiard ball, any place you go you would see a vast area around you, perfect horizontal circled horizon, not curved horizontally.
(http://www.trentglass.co.uk/uploadfile/20150922175319949.jpg)
Have you ever thought about distant objects looking smaller?Do you know that the horizon in the distance is just a straight line of objects reduced to a point?If you haven't thought about it, then I have told you these things and you don't have to reply to me.
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Dear proponent,
Let me be extremely clear. I do not understand you. You use certain words incorrectly, but it is clear from your pattern that you don't realize this. In order for us to understand you, please DEFINE THESE WORDS:
"sea line"
"radian"
I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?
correct
My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?
right
If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?
If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that.
I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.
How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?
What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle
The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.
Is that what we're talking about?
You don't understand what I'm saying, so you're giving the wrong example, where if the ant sees a circle, it will see an arc, and if it doesn't see an arc, it can't be a circle.
Please try to understand the following words.If the horizon is a circle, if it just looks like a straight line, then one cannot see a straight line in front and a straight line in the back, and they are not yet connected to one straight line, because they are a whole, and they intersect.Then the horizon is not a circle, and indeed it can only be a straight line in any direction, proving that the surface of the sea or the ground between the horizons is a plane, not a sphere.
Thank you for your patience. Please read my reply carefully.
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What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle
Why? Earth is huge, massive, in fact. Now I'm not running in and saying earth is a globe. Just trying to illustrate how massive earth is, why it may be curved, yet look flat:
(https://i.imgur.com/s4l9nY3.jpg?1)
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What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle
Why? Earth is huge, massive, in fact. Now I'm not running in and saying earth is a globe. Just trying to illustrate how massive earth is, why it may be curved, yet look flat:
I have already mentioned that a line with curvature on the same side in the vertical direction cannot go around to form a closed figure.
As I explained in my last reply to you just now, the horizon just looks straight at any Angle, it can't be a circle.
(https://i.imgur.com/s4l9nY3.jpg?1)
So what else do you need me to explain to you?Can you take arcs that have curvature on the same side of the vertical direction, go around them and connect them?When two straight lines intersect at two points, they're the same line, they don't go in two directions.I'm just saying the simple truth.
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I had a whole long explanation all typed out, but it took so long I was timed out and it's gone. :(
Not typing it all again.
short version: What does a circle look like if you're right in the center of the circle?
Get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Seriously, get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Now tell me how it can't be a circle because it looks like a straight line.
It's a hula hoop. It's a circle. Held at eye level, it looks like a straight line from any angle.
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
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I had a whole long explanation all typed out, but it took so long I was timed out and it's gone. :(
Not typing it all again.
short version: What does a circle look like if you're right in the center of the circle?
Get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Seriously, get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Now tell me how it can't be a circle because it looks like a straight line.
It's a hula hoop. It's a circle. Held at eye level, it looks like a straight line from any angle.
My online friends, I totally understand what you mean by hula hoops.I'll tell you what's wrong with this example. Take a closer look.
When you're standing on an ocean or a plain, you can see a horizon in front and a horizon behind you, right?
When you put the hula hoop completely out of the way, it looks straight, right?
If you don't flatten it out completely, you can only see arcs instead of straight lines.
So do you get it?A hula hoop is a finite size circle that looks like a straight line when completely flat.one line
But the horizon is in front, back, left, right, it's not a line but an infinite number of lines.
It proves by itself that this situation can only be observed in an infinite plane, not in a finite circle.
A two-dimensional graph of finite size can only be connected and closed when viewed at the same height with it, thus overlapping into a straight line.It's only when you look at a plane of infinite size that you can see straight lines in all directions without closing them.
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
I want to emphasize this simple fact to you.A flat hula hoop will look straight only if the point of view is completely parallel to it. Otherwise, even the smallest curvature will increase sharply on the left and right sides of the hoop, because it is an ellipse.
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating.
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
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I can't watch youtube
Can't watch YT, can't use a simple drawing program to make an illustration, and English not your first language.
Boy, this IS going well. Nobody can understand you, so now you're posting multi-coloured replies, since you've seen me use it in quoted replies to distinguish my text from the quote.
Honestly, colouring-in is NOT making your point any better than plain black text did on page 1.
Shall we move on to parchment and quill pens?
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating.
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.
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If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
What you really mean by "sea line"? The horizon? If yes, it is not a line. A line is something that connects two points, and it is straight, if not it will be a "curve".
So, rephrasing your first sentence, "If the sea curve is an arc, with high in the middle and low on the sides, it will not close around, It's a simple fact".... and NO, it can close on the bottom. An arc can be part of a round circle or ellipsoid closed object. Why you say it can not close around? as a fact... ? That is what nobody is understanding. What you mean by that? By any chance are you saying it will not "close around horizontally"? If yes, you need to put more words in the text, so we don't get confused.
Your second sentence makes no sense at all. "If the sea line(?) is straight and the sea surface is a sphere, the sea line(?) will close in a circle".
Again, this is a very difficult (for me) to understand what you mean by "sea line". What you mean by "sea line is straight"?
The sea surface is not a sphere, never is. A sphere represents a globe, the Earth's oceans do not make a globe, they are over a globe, the patches of land above the water makes it not a spherical water. Think with me, when you submerge an orange under water, still a spherical orange, even when you remove from water and it still all wet, still a spherical orange. The water could be covering a spherical orange, spherical planet and ultimate copying its format, but it is not a sphere.
Rethink and rephrase, mostly about the "sea line".
Thank you for your advice. I really didn't express myself clearly enough
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating.
>>>> a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
>>> no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.
If you want to insert answers into a quote, you need to use the colours, and possibly other markers such as line breaks to mark them out.
I've corrected it for you above, for clarity.
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating.
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.
Point missing: the earth is massive. You don't see it's curvature from just staring out at the horizon. The number one argument: It looks flat.
But what I think you're describing is earth shape agnostic. On a flat earth the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. To use your words. On a globe earth, the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. So what's your point?
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Proponent, can I suggest for an experiment that you take a few of your significant points above, and paste them into an online translator in your native language, and use that to convert it to English.
Then post the translator's English output here.
This may result in a clearer statement than you posting in what you think is correct English, and we may understand you better, and make better progress in determining what puzzles you.
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating.
>>>> a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
>>> no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.
If you want to insert answers into a quote, you need to use the colours, and possibly other markers such as line breaks to mark them out.
I've corrected it for you above, for clarity.
thank you.
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proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.
Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating.
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.
Point missing: the earth is massive. You don't see it's curvature from just staring out at the horizon. The number one argument: It looks flat.
But what I think you're describing is earth shape agnostic. On a flat earth the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. To use your words. On a globe earth, the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. So what's your point?
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exactly.If the horizon were a circle, it would appear in only one direction, not two.Because the circle is connected, the two straight segments that are connected with two intersecting points will overlap and become one.So it's impossible to have a horizon in front and behind at the same time.
If it is not a straight line, then a rapidly increasing curvature is observed on the left and right sides.That's the law of ellipses.
This translation software may not fully express what I want to say.
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I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?
correct
My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?
right
If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?
If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that. I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.
How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?
What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle
Tumeni asks - WHY NOT?
The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.
Is that what we're talking about?
You don't understand what I'm saying, so you're giving the wrong example
Tumeni says - what is the RIGHT example, then?
Please try to understand the following words. If the horizon is a circle, if it just looks like a straight line, then one cannot see a straight line in front and a straight line in the back, and they are not yet connected to one straight line, because they are a whole, and they intersect. Then the horizon is not a circle, and indeed it can only be a straight line in any direction, proving that the surface of the sea or the ground between the horizons is a plane, not a sphere.
Simple geometry.
Look at it from some distance above the observer on the surface, the observer's horizon will be a circle around him. Look at it from outside his viewpoint, it will look like a chord across a circle, where the chord is the base of the spherical cap. Move above this point (which is level with the base of the cap), and it will look like a half ellipse (you won't see the half on the far side.
See my diagram above for the Spherical Cap, and also see related Spherical Segment, and Chord of a Circle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_segment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_(geometry)
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The horizon would be a circle even if the earth were flat. Assuming visibility distance is consistent and nothing obscures your view, the horizon would be the limit of visibility. If the distance you can see is the same in all directions then that's a circle, isn't it? The difference on a flat earth is there's no reason you'd get a sharp horizon line. The earth would simply fade out as it does on a foggy day when visibility is less than the distance to the horizon. I can't think of any reason there would be a sharp horizon line a few miles from your position, what stops you seeing further?
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Spherical Cap - look from outwith the Earth, and you see the solid line, but not the dotted.
(http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/SphericalCap_1001.gif)
This view is from a point above the plane of the base of the cap. Move further up to see the dotted line.
Your observer, in the middle of the horizon line, is at the top of line h, isn't he?
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The horizon would be a circle even if the earth were flat. Assuming visibility distance is consistent and nothing obscures your view, the horizon would be the limit of visibility. If the distance you can see is the same in all directions then that's a circle, isn't it? The difference on a flat earth is there's no reason you'd get a sharp horizon line. The earth would simply fade out as it does on a foggy day when visibility is less than the distance to the horizon. I can't think of any reason there would be a sharp horizon line a few miles from your position, what stops you seeing further?
Yes!!Finally one came to the question.I'll give you a rundown of the situation and explain it to you.
If it's not blocked, you can see far away, like the moon.
But the horizon is a line formed by the surface of the earth from any direction, shrinking in the distance to a point where it is hard to see.Distant objects appear smaller and the surface of the earth is an infinite plane, which is the reason for the horizon rather than visibility.It is not formed by air visibility, so it has nothing to do with roundness.
It is not a circle as I have proved in previous replies to others.Because both the front and the back horizon exist at the same time it turns out that they are not connected and closed into a finite size pattern.
The answer is that they don't connect and close to a finite size graph, they form an infinite size plane.
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The horizon would be a circle even if the earth were flat. Assuming visibility distance is consistent and nothing obscures your view, the horizon would be the limit of visibility.
(Tumeni adds, for clarity - that's the limit of visibilty OF THE SURFACE. Objects above the surface can be visible above the horizon)
If the distance you can see is the same in all directions then that's a circle, isn't it? The difference on a flat earth is there's no reason you'd get a sharp horizon line. The earth would simply fade out as it does on a foggy day when visibility is less than the distance to the horizon. I can't think of any reason there would be a sharp horizon line a few miles from your position, what stops you seeing further?
If it's not blocked, you can see far away, like the moon. But the horizon is a line formed by the surface of the earth from any direction, shrinking in the distance to a point where it is hard to see.
Tumeni says - only if weather or atmospherics gets in the way. Otherwise the horizon is NOT "hard to see"
Distant objects appear smaller and the surface of the earth is an infinite plane, which is the reason for the horizon rather than visibility. It is not formed by air visibility, so it has nothing to do with roundness. It is not a circle as I have proved in previous replies to others. Because both the front and the back horizon exist at the same time it turns out that they are not connected and closed into a finite size pattern. The answer is that they don't connect and close to a finite size graph, they form an infinite size plane.
Disagree, three or four times over.
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People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines-horizon are arcs with very small radians-curvature.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians-curvature, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.
This is post #1. The quote doesn't show it, but
"« Last Edit: Today at 11:07:16 AM by proponent »"
Proponent, if you're going to, after four pages, go back and CHANGE THE FIRST POST, then you should MAKE IT CLEAR what you have changed...
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Again, everyone is failing to understand a fundamental concept of visual geometry.
Think about a gigantic torus like the one below, 300m in radius.
Now close the top with a gigantic circular board, just to cover and ignore the central inner circles orange and below.
Go to the center top of such board, go up 20 meters, so you can see better around.
Now look all around you, 360°.
Do you think you would see the external orange or yellow bands?
Of course not, they will be below the "red horizon" bands all around you.
Keep climbing so your head would be few meters over the top most red band. What you see? Only red horizon.
Even that a strong curvature exists from red to external orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, etc, you can't see that curvature, anywhere you look around you, you only see a red horizon.
You can not see any curvature on the red concentric circles, because there are no vertical curvature there, only flat horizontal circles. The trick here is that all curvature lines start from your point of view in a line that goes away from you.
See, the visual red horizon band is not higher in the center with the sides (left and right) going down, no way, it can't, because when you turn your head, all the red horizon will make a flat plain horizontal line, even that the next red band would be below the horizon, making a curvature from you to ahead, in all directions.
This effect will always happens while you have the object all around you, no matter the altitude you are from that object. It means, if you turn your head all around and still see the object in all directions. The only way to see the curvature from red to orange, yellow, etc, is to get out of the top center of the object, away enough to see the object as a whole in just one direction at certain angle, so you would see the torus as in the image, curvature and all.
Replace the torus with the planet Earth, to see it whole in a single view, curvature and all, you would need to be probably more than 20 to 30 thousand miles in space. While you are close to the planet, no matter the altitude, if you turn your head and still see the planet all around you, the horizon will be a flat horizontal circle line all around you, impossible not to be like that.
(https://www.nosco.ch/mathematics/inc/img/torus0.jpg)
And no, you can calculate as much as you want, the only way to see the small degree of curvature as someone calculated in a previous post, is if you slice the planet in vertical half, like a half orange, then go away back and face the cut.
Think with me, if you see ANY horizontal drop at your left of right horizon with the center a little bit up, as in a curvature, what happen when you turn your head to the right? that drop would be more pronounced?, what about on your back? that drop would be adding to be way below you? No, the horizon is a straight flat circle all around you. The next concentric circle further from the horizon would be below the horizon and you can't see it, the horizon image blocks such view. You can, of course, the the inner concentric circle before the horizon, and you will see it all around you, as another flat horizontal circle.
There is not curvature drop to measure while you are sitting on such sphere, the horizon is a flat horizontal circle all around you. In open ocean, the horizon would be at the same distance from you, no matter the direction you look, this makes the horizon a circle around you, leveled, horizontal, no curvature.
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Again, everyone is failing to understand a fundamental concept of visual geometry.
Think about a gigantic torus like the one below, 300m in radius.
Now close the top with a gigantic circular board, just to cover and ignore the central inner circles orange and below.
Go to the center top of such board, go up 20 meters, so you can see better around.
Now look all around you, 360°.
Do you think you would see the external orange or yellow bands?
Of course not, they will be below the "red horizon" bands all around you.
Keep climbing so your head would be few meters over the top most red band. What you see? Only red horizon.
Even that a strong curvature exists from red to external orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, etc, you can't see that curvature, anywhere you look around you, you only see a red horizon.
You can not see any curvature on the red concentric circles, because there are no vertical curvature there, only flat horizontal circles. The trick here is that all curvature lines start from your point of view in a line that goes away from you.
See, the visual red horizon band is not higher in the center with the sides (left and right) going down, no way, it can't, because when you turn your head, all the red horizon will make a flat plain horizontal line, even that the next red band would be below the horizon, making a curvature from you to ahead, in all directions.
This effect will always happens while you have the object all around you, no matter the altitude you are from that object. It means, if you turn your head all around and still see the object in all directions. The only way to see the curvature from red to orange, yellow, etc, is to get out of the top center of the object, away enough to see the object as a whole in just one direction at certain angle, so you would see the torus as in the image, curvature and all.
Replace the torus with the planet Earth, to see it whole in a single view, curvature and all, you would need to be probably more than 20 to 30 thousand miles in space. While you are close to the planet, no matter the altitude, if you turn your head and still see the planet all around you, the horizon will be a flat horizontal circle line all around you, impossible not to be like that.
(https://www.nosco.ch/mathematics/inc/img/torus0.jpg)
And no, you can calculate as much as you want, the only way to see the small degree of curvature as someone calculated in a previous post, is if you slice the planet in vertical half, like a half orange, then go away back and face the cut.
Think with me, if you see ANY horizontal drop at your left of right horizon with the center a little bit up, as in a curvature, what happen when you turn your head to the right? that drop would be more pronounced?, what about on your back? that drop would be adding to be way below you? No, the horizon is a straight flat circle all around you. The next concentric circle further from the horizon would be below the horizon and you can't see it, the horizon image blocks such view. You can, of course, the the inner concentric circle before the horizon, and you will see it all around you, as another flat horizontal circle.
There is not curvature drop to measure while you are sitting on such sphere, the horizon is a flat horizontal circle all around you. In open ocean, the horizon would be at the same distance from you, no matter the direction you look, this makes the horizon a circle around you, leveled, horizontal, no curvature.
I know all you mean.But you're wasting everyone's time.Because I've told you before why the horizon is not a circle.
To show you why I say this, let me explain to you again that it would be a faux folly for you to ignore my next words and bother me again.
The diagram you use here for example still says the horizon is a circle.
And why do I say it can't be a circle?Because a circle shows a closed overlapping line segment only when the point of view is exactly in the same plane as it is.
But in reality, sea lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point and in other directions.They don't overlap.
So you're saying things that don't fit reality.So you're wasting everyone's time!
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...But in reality, sea lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point and in other directions. They don't overlap.
So you're saying things that don't fit reality.So you're wasting everyone's time!
After consideration, the above reply is not appropriate, so I apologize.But there are other points I want to make to you, which I'm not sure about, but I'm sure someone can.
High seas horizon is everywhere you look, any direction, 360° around you, so it forms a nice horizontal flat circle. I don't understand what you mean by "overlap"... You say the "lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point, and in other directions". Sorry, it is not lines-horizons, it is just "horizon". As I already said before, a "line" connects A to B, the horizon connects nothing, it is a horizontal circle all around you, that specifies how far you can see due the curvature. That distance is the same, the radius that forms the circle around you. In a very calm ocean (almost impossible), suppose you can make a very long line of party balloons 11 inches (28cm) in diameter, and make a very big circle around you. If you are just floating eyes few inches from the water, to see the balloons they can not be more than 3km from you (radius of the circle). If the ocean is really calm, you will see all the balloons whatever direction you look, so they form a nice horizontal circle around you. If you make this circle of balloons with a radius of 5km (example), you will not see any balloons, they will be under the horizon circle. The horizon will always be a flat horizontal circle all around you, no matter what. That is the reality.
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...But in reality, sea lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point and in other directions. They don't overlap.
So you're saying things that don't fit reality.So you're wasting everyone's time!
After consideration, the above reply is not appropriate, so I apologize.But there are other points I want to make to you, which I'm not sure about, but I'm sure someone can.
High seas horizon is everywhere you look, any direction, 360° around you, so it forms a nice horizontal flat circle. I don't understand what you mean by "overlap"... You say the "lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point, and in other directions". Sorry, it is not lines-horizons, it is just "horizon". As I already said before, a "line" connects A to B, the horizon connects nothing, it is a horizontal circle all around you, that specifies how far you can see due the curvature. That distance is the same, the radius that forms the circle around you. In a very calm ocean (almost impossible), suppose you can make a very long line of party balloons 11 inches (28cm) in diameter, and make a very big circle around you. If you are just floating eyes few inches from the water, to see the balloons they can not be more than 3km from you (radius of the circle). If the ocean is really calm, you will see all the balloons whatever direction you look, so they form a nice horizontal circle around you. If you make this circle of balloons with a radius of 5km (example), you will not see any balloons, they will be under the horizon circle. The horizon will always be a flat horizontal circle all around you, no matter what. That is the reality.
On reflection, I think you are not saying that the horizon is always in the same plane as the observation point, but that the horizon is due to the visibility caused by what you call the curvature of the earth and that the earth is a sphere.
So I deleted the previous words, which are even more inappropriate.
You seem to be saying that the horizon that one can see is made up of the edge of visibility at the height of the sphere.
I have explained to you separately that if the point of view is not in the same plane as the horizon, then if the horizon is a circle, it will become an ellipse with curvature at both ends, and I have nothing more to say about that.
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People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines-horizon are arcs with very small radians-curvature.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians-curvature, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.
<<<<<<<<<After thinking about it, I think I was wrong when I observed the point and horizon in the same plane.So I'm going to think about it a little bit more.So please don't reply to me any more. Thank you for your participation and giving me some inspiration.
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So please don't reply to me any more.
bump
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So please don't reply to me any more.
bump
Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.