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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2018, 08:00:17 PM »
Now look at the second selfie that was created around that time:

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16457.html#.W2Nh2aLpVqJ

Quote
On the 84th and 85th Martian days of the NASA Mars rover Curiosity's mission on Mars (Oct. 31 and Nov. 1, 2012), NASA's Curiosity rover used the Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) to capture dozens of high-resolution images to be combined into self-portrait images of the rover. This version of the full-color self-portrait includes more of the surrounding terrain than a version produced earlier (PIA16239). [this is a link to the same Image 1 Selfie in the OP]

Full Size Direct Link: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/713264main_pia16457-full_full.jpg

In the second selfie the rocks did NOT have the photoshopping issue seen. The rocks are there, the terrain reflects the other images exactly, and is not modified or photoshopped out.

Image 1 Selfie from OP (Left) vs Second Selfie (Right)


What were they hiding?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 08:35:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2018, 08:08:11 PM »
Have you looked for a catalog or analysis of the site, as opposed to simply looking at photos?

Do you really think you've found something that all these folk have missed?

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6153/1239505.full

D. F. Blake 1,*,
R. V. Morris 2,
G. Kocurek 3,
S. M. Morrison 4,
R. T. Downs4,
D. Bish 5,
D. W. Ming 2,
K. S. Edgett 6,
D. Rubin 7,†,
W. Goetz 8,
M. B. Madsen 9,
R. Sullivan 10,
R. Gellert 11,
I. Campbell 11,
A. H. Treiman 12,
S. M. McLennan 13,
A. S. Yen 14,
J. Grotzinger 15,
D. T. Vaniman 16,
S. J. Chipera 17,
C. N. Achilles 2,
E. B. Rampe 2,
D. Sumner 18,
P.Y. Meslin 19,
S. Maurice 19,
O. Forni 19,
O. Gasnault 19,
M. Fisk 20,
M. Schmidt 21,
P. Mahaffy 22,
L. A. Leshin 23,
D. Glavin 22,
A. Steele 24,
C. Freissinet 22,
R. Navarro-González 25,
R. A. Yingst 16,
L. C. Kah 26,
N. Bridges 27,
K. W. Lewis 28,
T. F. Bristow 1,
J. D. Farmer 29,
J. A. Crisp 14,
E. M. Stolper 15,
D. J. Des Marais 1,
P. Sarrazin 30,
MSL Science Team‡

from

1 National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA 94035, USA.
2 NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX 77058, USA.
3 Department of Geological Sciences, University of Texas, Austin, TX 78712, USA.
4 Department of Geology, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721, USA.
5 Department of Geological Sciences, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405, USA.
6 Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego, CA 92191, USA.
7 U.S. Geological Survey, Santa Cruz, CA 95060, USA.
8 Max-Planck-Institut für Sonnensystemforschung, 37191 Katlenburg-Lindau, Germany.
9 Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, 2100 Copenhagen, Denmark.
10 Center for Radiophysics and Space Research, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14850, USA.
11 University of Guelf, Guelph, Ontario, N1G2W1, Canada.
12 Lunar and Planetary Institute, Houston, TX 77058, USA.
13 State University of New York–Stony Brook, Stony Brook, NY 11790, USA.
14 Jet Propulsion Laboratory/California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91109, USA.
15 California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA.
16 Planetary Science Institute, Tucson, AZ 85719, USA.
17 Chesapeake Energy, Oklahoma City, OK 73102, USA.
18 University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA.
19 Institut de Recherche en Astrophysique et Planétologie (IRAP), UPS-OMP-CNRS, 31028 Toulouse, France.
20 Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331, USA.
21 Finnish Meteorological Institute, Fl-00101 Helsinki, Finland.
22 NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD 20771, USA.
23 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY 12180, USA.
24 Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington, Washington, DC 20015, USA.
25 University Nacional Autonóma de México, Ciudad Universitaria, 04510 México D.F. 04510, Mexico.
26 Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA.
27 The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, MD 20723, USA.
28 Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544, USA.
29 Arizona State University, Phoenix, AZ 85004, USA.
30 SETI Institute, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 08:14:19 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2018, 08:11:51 PM »
Take a look at the rocks in the upper left of these two images. Some of the rocks are clearly identical, albeit with sightly different lighting, but the rocks around them seem to be different in each picture.

Sources
Image 1: https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA16239
Image 2: https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA16174

Image 1


Image 2


To verify that these rocks are the same, look at the little white rocks that surround them in the foreground beneath them, and around them.

What happened to the bigger rocks around them?

I still don't understand what you think is conspiratorial here.

If NASA was trying to hide something, why did they publish the raw images that allowed you to see that the mosaic was missing some elements of the raw images? If there's something NASA was trying to hide, it would be in the images where the rocks aren't missing, right? What's there that NASA wouldn't want us to see?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2018, 08:46:04 PM »
I still don't understand what you think is conspiratorial here.

If NASA was trying to hide something, why did they publish the raw images that allowed you to see that the mosaic was missing some elements of the raw images? If there's something NASA was trying to hide, it would be in the images where the rocks aren't missing, right? What's there that NASA wouldn't want us to see?

Selfie #1 had a person or piece of equipment behind the rover so they copy-pasted elements from other sources of the background images over him or it. They did a poor job of it too.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2018, 08:55:58 PM »
Selfie #1 had a person or piece of equipment behind the rover so they copy-pasted elements from other sources of the background images over him or it. They did a poor job of it too.

Selfie #1 is a mosaic, right? Did they stitch it together, realize they made a mistake and left some evidence of fakery in it and then copy-pasted other source elements over it to cover it up?

Or are you saying the raw images used to create the mosaic had some fakery evidence in them and it is those that were photoshopped (and then left out of the mosaic for some reason)?

Do you understand what I'm asking? You've found  (or someone found, and you're relaying) two versions of a space that's supposed to be on Mars. One has rocks (the raw images) where the other is missing those rocks (the mosaic). If there's a conspiracy to hide non-Mars elements, the raw images would be the ones manipulated, yeah?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2018, 10:25:29 PM »
Selfie #1 had a person or piece of equipment behind the rover so they copy-pasted elements from other sources of the background images over him or it. They did a poor job of it too.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just take the picture again once the person had moved?

However, you do realise that no human is on Mars, though, don't you?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2018, 10:31:20 PM »
Selfie #1 had a person or piece of equipment behind the rover so they copy-pasted elements from other sources of the background images over him or it. They did a poor job of it too.

Selfie #1 is a mosaic, right? Did they stitch it together, realize they made a mistake and left some evidence of fakery in it and then copy-pasted other source elements over it to cover it up?

Or are you saying the raw images used to create the mosaic had some fakery evidence in them and it is those that were photoshopped (and then left out of the mosaic for some reason)?

Do you understand what I'm asking? You've found  (or someone found, and you're relaying) two versions of a space that's supposed to be on Mars. One has rocks (the raw images) where the other is missing those rocks (the mosaic). If there's a conspiracy to hide non-Mars elements, the raw images would be the ones manipulated, yeah?

As we have read, the creation of the final mosaic is an automated process. They took the final image and then photoshopped it to remove whatever it is they were trying to remove behind the rover.

Clearly they could not put the man or equipment that they erased into the raw image archive, however. What did they do about the raw images, one might ask? Maybe the took it from the other Selfie #2 raw image collection as an afterthought.

Lets look at the Raw Images for Sol 84 and Sol 85, the days of the two Curiosity Selfies.


Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) images for Sol 84 images

Gallery Link to Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?s=84&camera=MAHLI

RAW image of the rocks in question for Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0084MH0000710000100921E01_DXXX&s=84

Caption from the above link: "NASA's Mars rover Curiosity acquired this image using its Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI), located on the turret at the end of the rover's robotic arm, on October 31, 2012, Sol 84 of the Mars Science Laboratory Mission, at 09:35:23 UTC."

Flipped and cropped version: https://i.imgur.com/168GTqa.jpg

Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) images for Sol 85 images

Gallery Link to Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?s=85&camera=MAHLI

RAW image of the rocks in question for Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0085MH0001130000100990E01_DXXX&s=85

Caption from the above link: "NASA's Mars rover Curiosity acquired this image using its Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI), located on the turret at the end of the rover's robotic arm, on November 1, 2012, Sol 85 of the Mars Science Laboratory Mission, at 10:14:59 UTC."

Flipped and cropped version: https://i.imgur.com/gqcXYtP.jpg

Flipped and Cropped Versions Side by Side (Click for Bigger)




Take away:

- The lighting is exactly the same
- The shadows on the rocks are exactly the same
- The sand patterns and texture is all exactly the same
- The dust and dirt on the rocks is all exactly the same
- The pictures are listed as being taken almost exactly one Mars day apart from each other (One Martian day is 24h 37m).

They don't have anything better to do with that expensive science lab on wheels than to take a picture of the same thing near exactly one Martian day apart? The picture is merely listed to be taken one day apart as a way to explain why the shadows are the same if anyone were to look. The lighting and shadows are exactly the same. There must not be much wind on Martian nights because the patterns in the sand and the grit on the rocks is the same as well. The dates are listed at almost exactly one Martian day apart to cover up why its the same image, or at least an image which was taken almost immediately after the other from the collection.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:27:53 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2018, 01:06:11 AM »
I still don't understand what you think is conspiratorial here.

If NASA was trying to hide something, why did they publish the raw images that allowed you to see that the mosaic was missing some elements of the raw images? If there's something NASA was trying to hide, it would be in the images where the rocks aren't missing, right? What's there that NASA wouldn't want us to see?

Selfie #1 had a person or piece of equipment behind the rover so they copy-pasted elements from other sources of the background images over him or it. They did a poor job of it too.
So why is the person or piece of equipment not in any of the raw images?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2018, 01:07:16 AM »
Markjo, look at the raw images I provided above from Selfie #1 and Selfie #2 that were allegedly taken on different days. The lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns, are exactly the same.

In fact, the ONLY differences between the two images are a few black specks that move, which can be assumed to be specks on the lens.

Click for bigger:





Raw images here:

Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0084MH0000710000100921E01_DXXX&s=84
Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0085MH0001130000100990E01_DXXX&s=85

The lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns, are all the same. These are images that were taken immediately after each other from the same collection, not different days.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:21:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2018, 01:17:40 AM »
I agree. Other than field of view and scaling, those look the same.

Edit to add that I don't have the same take-away from that as Tom, but that IS curious how what appears to be identical images are listed as days apart. The accompanying descriptions are copy/paste except for the sol dating. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 01:21:00 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2018, 02:43:49 AM »
Markjo, look at the raw images I provided above from Selfie #1 and Selfie #2 that were allegedly taken on different days. The lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns, are exactly the same.

In fact, the ONLY differences between the two images are a few black specks that move, which can be assumed to be specks on the lens.

Click for bigger:





Raw images here:

Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0084MH0000710000100921E01_DXXX&s=84
Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0085MH0001130000100990E01_DXXX&s=85

The lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns, are all the same. These are images that were taken immediately after each other from the same collection, not different days.
Tom, I replaced your cropped and edited photos with the raw images.   Why don't we compare those?

The photos were taken one day (sol) apart at about the same time of day from the same location and using the same camera settings.  Why shouldn't the lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns all look pretty much the same?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2018, 02:55:04 AM »
Tom, I replaced your cropped and edited photos with the raw images.   Why don't we compare those?

The photos were taken one day (sol) apart at about the same time of day from the same location and using the same camera settings.  Why shouldn't the lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns all look pretty much the same?

I didn't edit the images at all, except to crop and rotate to see the rocks in question, with the obvious overlays.

Mars has wind:

Quote
Surface winds typically move about 16 to 32 kilometers (10 to 20 miles) per hour. The Viking Landers measured speeds of up to 113 kilometers (70 miles) per hour during dust storms.

Mars has clouds in the sky:



https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/16405.html

Quote
The Surface Stereo Imager onboard NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander observed clouds drifting across the horizon in the early morning on the 119th sol, or Martian day, since landing (September 25, 2008). Clouds were observed each night after Sol 80 (August 15, 2008) as the atmospheric temperature decreased.

Mars has haze:



http://news.discovery.com/space/big-pic-mars-curiosity-mojave-desert-120808.html

Quote
The panoramic image shows what appears to be "haze" at the base of the mountains in the distance in Gale crater.

Yet the lighting is EXACTLY the same?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:59:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2018, 02:58:23 AM »
Tom, you've never seen 2 sunny days in a row? ???
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2018, 03:16:15 AM »
Tom, you've never seen 2 sunny days in a row? ???

Any slight modification to the atmosphere changes lighting conditions. Sunny days are not all the same. You can't take a picture from one day to the next and expect the results to be the same.

The fact that they tried to list out the raw pictures as one Martian Day apart for this indisputably the hack photoshop job, and that these pictures in the raw images are EXACTLY THE SAME, is a dead giveaway.

Exactly the same lighting, dust on the rocks, patterns in the sand, shadows, features in the darkness of the shadows, highlighted textures, colors to the rocks, and colors to the sand, features and patterns in the sand, etc. etc.

Show us something that is different about the images.

JustPostingThis

Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2018, 03:16:54 AM »
As we have read, the creation of the final mosaic is an automated process. They took the final image and then photoshopped it to remove whatever it is they were trying to remove behind the rover.

A mosaic made with the automated process looks like this :-
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16457.html#.W2PFTdIzZPa
PIA16239 has been modified to look rectangular, or was not stitched by the automated process.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2018, 03:32:55 AM »
As we have read, the creation of the final mosaic is an automated process. They took the final image and then photoshopped it to remove whatever it is they were trying to remove behind the rover.

A mosaic made with the automated process looks like this :-
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16457.html#.W2PFTdIzZPa
PIA16239 has been modified to look rectangular, or was not stitched by the automated process.

Of course it was cropped to look rectangular. Refrain from trying to divert the issue. The background is indisputably photoshopped. It is not an innocent overlay error.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 11:18:53 AM by Tom Bishop »

JustPostingThis

Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2018, 03:33:28 AM »
Comparing the raw images. They are not the same image, there is a difference in angle. Open them both and switch between them.

Raw images here:

Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0084MH0000710000100921E01_DXXX&s=84
Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0085MH0001130000100990E01_DXXX&s=85

Therefore Sol 84 is not a copy of Sol 85.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2018, 04:03:17 AM »
Comparing the raw images. They are not the same image, there is a difference in angle. Open them both and switch between them.

Raw images here:

Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0084MH0000710000100921E01_DXXX&s=84
Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0085MH0001130000100990E01_DXXX&s=85

Therefore Sol 84 is not a copy of Sol 85.

look at the raw images I provided above from Selfie #1 and Selfie #2 that were allegedly taken on different days. The lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns, are exactly the same.

In fact, the ONLY differences between the two images are a few black specks that move, which can be assumed to be specks on the lens.

Click for bigger:





Raw images here:

Sol 84: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0084MH0000710000100921E01_DXXX&s=84
Sol 85: https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=0085MH0001130000100990E01_DXXX&s=85

The lighting, the shadows, the dust and dirt on the rocks, the sand patterns, are all the same. These are images that were taken immediately after each other from the same collection, not different days.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 05:50:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2018, 05:54:20 AM »
As we have read, the creation of the final mosaic is an automated process.


Read where? I haven't read that anywhere except where you wrote it.

I think you're misreading - the taking of the pictures was automated, not the assembly of the raw into finished image.

Clearly they could not put the man or equipment that they erased into the raw image archive, however. What did they do about the raw images, one might ask? Maybe the took it from the other Selfie #2 raw image collection as an afterthought.

So we're acting as though there WAS something there, even though this is still just supposition and assumption on your part ...?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 05:58:23 AM by Tumeni »
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Nearly?

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Re: Mars Curiosity Rover - Rock Issues
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2018, 06:17:42 AM »
Mars has wind:
Mars has clouds in the sky:
Mars has haze:

Yet the lighting is EXACTLY the same?
So Tom is acknowledging that the photos were taken on Mars. I'm sure this contradicts his assertion that space travel is not possible.

To quote Tom ; "NASA's intent is to fake the concept of space travel, is not running a real space agency, and is merely mistaken about the round shape of the earth"