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Messages - Dr David Thork

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1641
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Google AI
« on: June 25, 2018, 01:06:17 PM »
There recently was a formal debate between an AI and humans, and the AI provided substantive data to back up its conclusions.  If you borrowed elements from this you could also get data on how the AI came to the conclusion.
I hadn't seen that. Its an obvious thing to want to know how the answer is what it is. It needs building into all AI.

I'll bet that is how they'll make money. ML programs like tensorflow are free. So you can find the answer to anything you want. But if you want to know how the machine arrived at that answer so you can understand it too, that's the premium module. That's what I'd do.  ;)

I don't look forward to the first AI bot joining this forum to debate earth's shape.  :(

1642
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Google AI
« on: June 25, 2018, 12:38:38 PM »
Yeah my bad. I thought that it still had to be FE related.

I don’t think the Google AI dominated go, but it certainly won against the world’s top player. Another AI, not developed by Google, defeated a bunch of human’s in a poker game.  What made this interesting is that unlike chess or go, poker has a component of hidden information and theory of mind components in betting. The AI adapted to both of these elements and learned to call bluffs.
I've actually written poker algorithms before. I wrote one for texas holdem based on the probability of winning any hand based on what's in my hand, whats on the table and what others could conceivably be holding by probability, what I might draw on the river, what they might get etc (odds for each stage). The problem is, whilst it worked and could say "you have a 45% chance of winning this hand over the other 4 people left in", I could never wrap my head around the maths of how much to bid to lure maximum money from people, to stop them folding because my algoritmn was predicting say 97% chance of winning so it went all in etc. I could get it to work out if the pot money vs the next stake was worth it to 'see' my opponent cards, but should my algorithm raise by $4, $6, $7? I had no idea how to sort that. And it seemed how much you bid, is actually more important than the cards you hold ... you hold average cards, you need to stay in but not lose too much.

I have recently been looking at tensor flow (from a hobbiest point of view), and it might be able to solve these problems for me, and as you say, be able to call a bluff ... which I wasn't even close to getting the maths right for. I could only say, odds in my favour, bet, not in my favour, don't bet ... binary ... and that won't beat a top player even if I know the odds. I did have 'the gun' in my probability, and the algorithm I wrote would know where on the table it was and calculate the odds dependant on its seat when asked to bid ... an instantaneous set of odds.

But I won't be using tensorflow for this ... gambling sites are already onto this and now actively hunt down signs of machine learning. That window has passed.  :)


Machine learning would be the ultimate answer to earth's shape. Not even Tom Bishop would argue because it is based on observable science. You don't give ML any assumptions. You just feed it data and it iterates repeatedly until it finds the answer. The problem with ML in today's format, is that whilst we'd end up knowing what shape the earth is, we'd have no idea how the machine came to that conclusion, we'd only know it is right. Much like we have no idea how Google's AI plays chess. It just does it.

I have a theory that ML will actually cause a 'great ignorance'. Lets say you got ML to start predicting the weather. Now if would just look at all the data from ocean buoys, airport reports, temp, pressure, visibility, dew point etc etc. And it would work out the weather ... and it would be far more accurate than anything we have today. Maybe we'd end up with a 30 day forecast. People at the weather service would abandon trying to predict the weather, the machine does it better, but no one knows how it does it. So, you'd have a meteorological office filled with people that could write machine learning, and no one who actually knew how to predict weather themselves from data as no one is employed to do that. The science would grind to a halt. There is no point learning a solved problem, as it is useless, weather isn't predicted that way any more.
Span this through multiple industries such as medical cures, accountancy, logistics, etc ... no one would have any knowledge or skill whatsoever. But I guess this is why people think AI will kill jobs for billions of people. We'll all be dumb, unskilled and unneeded.

1643
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Google AI
« on: June 24, 2018, 10:59:38 PM »
Is it?

My understanding is that you can look at a wider variety of topics in here, but are still subject to upper fora rules. To that end, it is you that made the error with a low content off-topic post.

Its a new thing, we'll see how it plays out. The basis is to have a broader array of topic flexibility, with a stringent set of forum rules to keep things civil and productive. We wanted to encourage more debate, and not just keep doing the same old tired debate about gravity and sunsets in the upper fora. Its an experiment. If it works and we all enjoy it, we'll keep it. If it fails, we'll can it Google Glass style. Read the debate club threads in S&C.

Google is a company pushing earth shaped propaganda, so discussion about its credibility in other areas would be valid ... as far as I understand. So, do you have anything to say about google, AI or chess programs?

1644
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Google AI
« on: June 24, 2018, 04:40:07 PM »
I managed to find a commentary of the google win as black that has been released, for those not wanting to look through a list of moves.



1645
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Debate Club: Recap post
« on: June 24, 2018, 04:35:22 PM »
I've bunged a post in there ... I've no idea if the moderators will deem it to be within the rules ... but its a debate outside of direct earth's shape whilst still under upper fora rules.

I don't know what type of things people will want to discuss in there ... I guess that's the point, we'll find out as we go ... maybe having no posted rules other than the upper fora ones might be an idea for a while. To see how the community want to use the new board. Then we could look at abuse retrospectively and tighten the rules to get rid of things that aren't improving debates.

1646
Flat Earth Investigations / Google AI
« on: June 24, 2018, 04:11:32 PM »
Welp, brand new forum, more flexibility to look at all kinds of conspiracy theories etc so I'll kick things off.

https://www.chess.com/news/view/google-s-alphazero-destroys-stockfish-in-100-game-match

So Google AI has been coming on in leaps and bounds. They basically have a neural network, give the thing the rules of whatever it is doing and let it work out how to do it. In the example above, google told their AI about the rules of chess. And that's it. Just the rules. They didn't teach it any openings, any tactics, they taught it absolutely nothing. 4 hours later, not only could it destroy any human on earth, it also stuffed the world's best chess program in a 100 game match by winning 28, drawing 72 and losing zero games.

One of the games I have seen is very interesting. Google wins as black (harder to do). Twice during the game, white offered a draw by repeating the same move 3 times. In both cases, google's AI decided to weaken its own position by refusing the draw and picking an alternative move. This was completely unexpected by programmers who expected it to only ever want to strengthen its position in a game. Stockfish (the rival machine) ends up resigning about 83 moves in ... note most people didn't even know stockfish could resign. No human has forced it to do that. Also Stockfish calculates 70million moves per second ... google's machine was only looking at 80,000 moves per second. It seems it just understood chess better than anyone has ever done before. Google has only released 10 of the 100 games to the public, but it is already clear it doesn't play chess like any human, or any computer for that matter. It really does have its own way of doing it.

Google have also used the same AI to dominate Dota 2 and a game called Go.

The thing is, I wonder what else google uses this for, and would be interested to see your opinions? For example, tax avoidance would be an obvious choice. The rules are known (the law), let the algorithm find ways of being creatively efficient at avoiding tax and milking subsidies. 
Serving adverts more likely to make you buy things is another obvious choice.
Altering political opinion by pushing certain view points to sway elections is another I can see google doing, using the algorithm to be as persuasive as possible.

Google keep talking about curing cancer and other altruistic things like this ... but I don't see them using this power for good.

What do you think google will do with AI, and how can the public defend themselves against it?

1647
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Now Playing
« on: June 23, 2018, 10:51:13 PM »

1648
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Debate Club: Recap post
« on: June 23, 2018, 07:06:13 PM »
Seems good. It'll be nice not to have a mirror image of the other site any more. Fingers crossed it improves the quality of debates. :-)

1649
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Q. Sunset
« on: June 19, 2018, 03:04:53 PM »
Thork, since you have a pair, is there any chance you could verify they are in fact properly polarized? You would need a second lens that you know is polarized of course, and it's fine if you don't. Just thought we could at least put that particular bit to bed if possible, as polarization seems a bit odd for night driving glasses. I've used my own polarized lenses at night, and it makes it very hard to see at times, and doesn't do a ton for reducing glare off headlights. By which I mean the optical effect of magnification, not the intensity of the light.
No, I checked when I bought them. You hold them out over a body of water, for me a small stream. Then turn them 90 degrees. When you do this, suddenly you can't see through the water any more because of the reflection. They are 100% polarised.

1650
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 19, 2018, 03:02:44 PM »
Soooo .... as enjoyable as this was ... is anyone going to tackle the OP? You know, seismology. Not maps.

1651
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Q. Sunset
« on: June 19, 2018, 02:02:20 PM »
Whatever you think of it, it's evidence. Maybe you can come up with a theory that the company is a fraud and these aren't really polarized glasses. They are handing out overpriced flimsy tiwanese-made yellow tinted plastic! Our conclusion will be different, however.
I'd seen Tom's video before. I have a actually have a set of those night driving glasses.

They don't make anything harder to see at night. But they take all the blue light out of everything. The result is less glare from awful German cars with xenon bulbs, and everything has a warmer hue. The result is you don't get blinded by on coming cars, and it makes you feel, and this sounds silly, but calmer. All of the aggression of night driving is gone. If someone is right behind you in an Audi with his lights filling your rear view mirror, you no longer feel like there is a big aggressive car behind you. In fact its like you are being tailed by a Citreon 2CV. For some of the older people, do you remember ever driving in France back in the day when they had to have yellow filters on the cars headlights? Well its like that. Like everyone has gone back to 1990s France.

In summary they work great. They don't help you see any more, but they do dial down your cortisone a notch or two, and it makes night driving a lot less tiring as your eyes are strained less by harsh blue car and street lighting. They are polarised, they do take some of the reflection out of puddles, but it doesn't really help your driving. I think polarised is a bit of a gimmick for night driving, the colour is the thing doing the work filtering the blue light.

Anyway ... back to your thread, ... something about the shape of the earth. But yeah, I have them they are a real thing.

1652
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 02:05:54 PM »
... fine, organise yourselves. I'll look in once you get your act together  ::)

1653
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 01:07:30 PM »
Huhg-hem.

Chaps, I'm the OP, you are supposed to be on the same side. In order for me to countenance the absurdity of a flat earth you are going to need to

1) Show me why my evidence and reasoning is false
2) Using that show how Flat Earth repairs these issues (ie is the superior model). 

1654
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 09:39:17 AM »
I get your point, but that image doesn't really have anything to do with whether we're on a spinning ball or not: more relevant would be for you to drive in your car at 1040mph and tell me if you can feel motion. My prediction is you will. But you're not feeling it now, are you, sitting at your computer? Even though we're supposed to be hurtling through space at 666,000mph!
If I spin around several times and then stop, my senses tell me the earth is moving and I fall over. Its called being dizzy. I can fool my senses very easily. Eyes, ears, sense of touch etc.

When I spin, my ears tell me the earth is moving even when I stop. Once upon a time I was a pilot. We used to do an exercise where we'd blind fold people to show them how easy their senses are fooled and they are instructed to trust the instruments ... not what they feel. We'd roll the aircraft and put it into a one g turn. Then ask, what's happening. They'd say we we rolled and now are straight again. They'd remove the blind fold and realise they are actually at about 45 degrees angle of bank and falling out of the sky at the same time (losing altitude). You could actually get people inverted and they wouldn't know.

The upshot is your senses are easily fooled. And looking out at a vast landscape will tell you the earth looks flat ... but looks can be deceiving. You have to trust the instruments, you need to look at the data.

1655
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 09:09:17 AM »
So, you are giving me nothing about the earth, other than your starting place is 'it is flat'.

Regarding my senses, is the image below moving?


My eyes tell me it is. the file type .jpeg tells me it can't be.

1656
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 08:40:23 AM »
Voliva and Rowbotham were early pioneers, but we've learned a lot since then. The reason they think the sun was at 3000 miles was because they were measuring it from around 45°N - but obviously this doesn't work if you measure it from other latitudes.

So, because we don't really know the altitude of the sun, we don't really know the dimensions of the Earth.

I think it's a bit rich for a round earther to claim to know the size of the flat earth when we flat earthers have told you over and over that this isn't yet known.
So you don't know the altitude of the sun, you don't know how big the earth is, you don't know how far any place is from any other place ... how do you know the earth is flat? You've distanced yourself from Rowbotham's works, Voliva went under the same bus ... what can you tell me about earth? Other than you have a hunch it might be flat?  ::)

You just said ... we've learned a lot since then. Other than that they were wrong (my suspicion as a round earther all along), what have you learned? You have revised figures for me? You know more now ... you just said so. What do you know?

1657
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 07:04:27 AM »
This is station data from 40 independent stations across the earth. It is no small sample set. How is it your s-waves radiate out from the epicenter exactly 11,465km and come to a dead stop, no matter where the earthquake?

I can pull this type of data from any earthquake. Always the same ... 103 degrees (round earth) or 11,456km (flat earth) from the epicenter.

1. You quote two different figures above for the distance s-waves travel. Very suspicious.
2. How can we know they travel around 11,500km on the flat earth? Distances on the flat earth aren't known. There is no map.
103 degrees can be looked at as a percentage. It is 28.6% of the distance across the earth.

We know the dimensions of a flat earth. The diameter of a flat earth is 40,000km. Flat earthers use this to determine the altitude of the sun using trigonometry... Voliva and Rowbotham for example. This makes the station 11,440km away. Take my rounding out and its the same distance. 

I don't think there are too many flat earthers that would throw both Rowbotham and Voliva under the bus in the same thread. There wouldn't be a lot left of flat earth theory.

1658
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: June 15, 2018, 01:24:40 AM »
I'm not sure I'm going to dignify that with an answer.

Come on. This is the first one. It is easier than that. There is something obviously very weird about the data I gave you in the OP. Its real data ... but something isn't right.

1659
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question about flight times
« on: June 14, 2018, 06:10:45 PM »
1 degrees? You are measuring a patch of snow. It all looks the same. With no distinguishing features, you can't be sure.

1660
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question about flight times
« on: June 14, 2018, 05:46:27 PM »

I recall answering your question when you asked it. A mile is 5280 feet on FE and RE.

1. You didn't provide any evidence that a round earth mile and a flat earth mile are the same.
2. that's not what you said here:

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system devices appear to be inaccurate.
Longitude is the same.
Latitude ... RE distance * cos(latitude) = FE distance.

Working out anything that isn't due North, South, East, or West is more complicated, but you can google for that yourself.

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