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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #960 on: May 24, 2022, 04:00:52 AM »
That clip is from I think around 2006.

Behind Joe Biden’s Evolution on L.G.B.T.Q. Rights
Mr. Biden’s support for same-sex marriage in 2012 was a reversal for him and a watershed moment in his shift — and the nation’s — on L.G.B.T.Q. issues.

Mr. Biden’s shifting views over the course of his political career illustrate the extent to which the Democratic Party has changed as it sought to keep pace with Americans, especially younger ones, who have dismissed traditional stances on issues like same-sex marriage. Mr. Biden has managed to not only keep pace with these evolving views, but on same-sex marriage, he was a step ahead of many of his fellow Democrats.


I guess you are anti-enlightenment and anti-human ideological progression/evolution.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #961 on: May 24, 2022, 04:06:21 AM »
Joe Biden was 70 years old in 2012. Kind of late there. Why did it take him 70 years to accept gay rights?

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Offline stack

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #962 on: May 24, 2022, 04:12:54 AM »
Joe Biden was 70 years old in 2012. Kind of late there. Why did it take him 70 years to accept gay rights?

Because it took him 70 years to accept gay rights. (Though I'd be surprised if he was thinking about gay rights at age, say, 10 - So let's go with 60 years) Better late than never.

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Offline honk

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #963 on: May 24, 2022, 05:47:49 AM »
It's interesting to see people who are themselves firmly opposed to gay rights criticize politicians for having not always supported gay rights. It might seem completely nonsensical at first, but you have to remember that right-wing political discourse isn't so much focused on reason and logic as it on just trying to own the libs in any way possible.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #964 on: May 24, 2022, 10:15:11 AM »
Joe Biden was 70 years old in 2012. Kind of late there. Why did it take him 70 years to accept gay rights?

That means there is still time for you.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #965 on: May 24, 2022, 11:51:36 PM »
It's interesting to see people who are themselves firmly opposed to gay rights criticize politicians for having not always supported gay rights. It might seem completely nonsensical at first, but you have to remember that right-wing political discourse isn't so much focused on reason and logic as it on just trying to own the libs in any way possible.

The point is that it's less likely that Biden changed his mind and more likely that he restated certain positions based on popularity. The old guard of the DNC by and large flipped the switch on their gay rights stances in order to appease voters and not necessarily because they think gay marriage is acceptable. You should always be incredibly suspicious of some politician that changes their mind on an incredibly controversial subject after one side becomes much more favorable to their voter base than the other.

It's the same reason he keeps bringing up things like student loan forgiveness. It's popular. It brings in votes. He doesn't actually care about it one way or another and he isn't going to run around fighting for it.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 11:53:24 PM by Rushy »

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Offline honk

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #966 on: May 25, 2022, 04:50:21 AM »
Halfhearted support of gay rights, even for the wrong reasons, is vastly preferable to enthusiastic opposition to gay rights. But yes, the Democrats as a whole are more than overdue for the old guard to cede their dominance to the newer, more progressive wing of the party.
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Offline stack

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #967 on: May 25, 2022, 06:57:52 AM »
It's interesting to see people who are themselves firmly opposed to gay rights criticize politicians for having not always supported gay rights. It might seem completely nonsensical at first, but you have to remember that right-wing political discourse isn't so much focused on reason and logic as it on just trying to own the libs in any way possible.

The point is that it's less likely that Biden changed his mind and more likely that he restated certain positions based on popularity. The old guard of the DNC by and large flipped the switch on their gay rights stances in order to appease voters and not necessarily because they think gay marriage is acceptable. You should always be incredibly suspicious of some politician that changes their mind on an incredibly controversial subject after one side becomes much more favorable to their voter base than the other.

It's the same reason he keeps bringing up things like student loan forgiveness. It's popular. It brings in votes. He doesn't actually care about it one way or another and he isn't going to run around fighting for it.

I don't disagree with your assessment. But there is know way to really know the motivation. We can speculate, but we don't know.

As far as appeasing voters, isn't that kinda part of the job description? After all, they are supposed to represent their constituents. As voter sentiment changes, I would expect, for the most part, my governmental proxies that I voted for to represent me to evolve as well.

Regardless of motivation, did Biden land on the correct side of history? In my mind, as a voter, a constituent, yes.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #968 on: May 25, 2022, 01:57:58 PM »
It's interesting to see people who are themselves firmly opposed to gay rights criticize politicians for having not always supported gay rights. It might seem completely nonsensical at first, but you have to remember that right-wing political discourse isn't so much focused on reason and logic as it on just trying to own the libs in any way possible.

The point is that it's less likely that Biden changed his mind and more likely that he restated certain positions based on popularity. The old guard of the DNC by and large flipped the switch on their gay rights stances in order to appease voters and not necessarily because they think gay marriage is acceptable. You should always be incredibly suspicious of some politician that changes their mind on an incredibly controversial subject after one side becomes much more favorable to their voter base than the other.

It's the same reason he keeps bringing up things like student loan forgiveness. It's popular. It brings in votes. He doesn't actually care about it one way or another and he isn't going to run around fighting for it.

He doesn't have to care about either issue. That's really not important. What's important is that he politically exercises the will of the people he represents, and as you point out, he does so smashingly.

I don't think shifting perspective because that's what your constituents are doing is the "wrong reason", as honk suggests. Really it's exactly what he should be doing.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #969 on: May 25, 2022, 02:09:24 PM »
I don't disagree with your assessment. But there is know way to really know the motivation. We can speculate, but we don't know.

Yes, but the point is to assess which politicians are more likely to pull this stunt. They're all liars and thieves, but just how much they lie and thieve is on a spectrum of lying and thieving.

As far as appeasing voters, isn't that kinda part of the job description? After all, they are supposed to represent their constituents. As voter sentiment changes, I would expect, for the most part, my governmental proxies that I voted for to represent me to evolve as well.

Regardless of motivation, did Biden land on the correct side of history? In my mind, as a voter, a constituent, yes.

The thing is, he didn't. His stated support for gay marriage now doesn't retroactively help it pass in the first place. This is a case of all-too-often mentioned "virtue signaling". Biden is willing to state popular beliefs in order to garner support but he doesn't seem interested in fighting for those beliefs (because, all too likely, they're not genuine). This is why I brought up the student loan debacle. His support for student loan forgiveness likely isn't genuine (as well as most of the DNC's support). He's had a D majority in Congress for two years now. They forgave a few token loans and said "job done, lads!" Bringing it up again at this point is spitting on your supporters and laughing about it.

Halfhearted support of gay rights, even for the wrong reasons, is vastly preferable to enthusiastic opposition to gay rights. But yes, the Democrats as a whole are more than overdue for the old guard to cede their dominance to the newer, more progressive wing of the party.

Support that doesn't attempt to contribute meaningful change isn't support. If I'm anti-abortion before Roe v Wade and then flip to pro-abortion afterwards, I haven't actually made a difference. Waiting until after gay marriage passes to support gay marriage isn't support, it's at best described as tolerance of the status quo.

Also, the reason why you haven't seen the party flip to the "newer, more progressive wing" is because that newer, more progressive wing is too small to make an impact on their voter base. If more voters were more progressive, you'd see more candidates pandering to them. The left wing in the US is comically small and irrelevant to federal elections. Far left candidates like Bernie can't even beat Hillary Clinton in a primary, the very same woman who lost to literally Donald Trump. That should indicate just how outnumbered the left wing is in this country.

He doesn't have to care about either issue. That's really not important. What's important is that he politically exercises the will of the people he represents, and as you point out, he does so smashingly.

I don't think shifting perspective because that's what your constituents are doing is the "wrong reason", as honk suggests. Really it's exactly what he should be doing.

I agree, my point is that he isn't politically exercising "the will of the people". He's ignoring them because he's not genuinely interested in his more recent stated positions.

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Offline stack

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #970 on: May 25, 2022, 04:57:56 PM »
I don't disagree with your assessment. But there is know way to really know the motivation. We can speculate, but we don't know.

Yes, but the point is to assess which politicians are more likely to pull this stunt. They're all liars and thieves, but just how much they lie and thieve is on a spectrum of lying and thieving.

You'll get no argument from me on that. To be a politician, especially at the higher levels, you have to be basically a narcissistic borderline personality disordered individual. Then it's a sliding scale within that diagnosis.

As far as appeasing voters, isn't that kinda part of the job description? After all, they are supposed to represent their constituents. As voter sentiment changes, I would expect, for the most part, my governmental proxies that I voted for to represent me to evolve as well.

Regardless of motivation, did Biden land on the correct side of history? In my mind, as a voter, a constituent, yes.

The thing is, he didn't. His stated support for gay marriage now doesn't retroactively help it pass in the first place.

I don't know what his impact was, but for the record, Biden “came out” on same sex marriage way before the SCOTUS ruling in 2015. Specifically, in May of 2012 (Granted, an election year, go figure):

Biden was asked by anchor David Gregory on May 4, 2012, whether he had rethought his longstanding opposition to same-sex marriage. “I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual men and women marrying another are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights, all the civil liberties,” Biden responded. “Who do you love? And will you be loyal to the person you love? And that’s what people are finding out is what all marriages, at their root, are about, whether they’re marriages of lesbians or gay men or heterosexuals.”

And even before Obama “came out”.

Were Biden’s statements genuine? Anyone’s guess.

This is a case of all-too-often mentioned "virtue signaling". Biden is willing to state popular beliefs in order to garner support but he doesn't seem interested in fighting for those beliefs (because, all too likely, they're not genuine). This is why I brought up the student loan debacle. His support for student loan forgiveness likely isn't genuine (as well as most of the DNC's support). He's had a D majority in Congress for two years now. They forgave a few token loans and said "job done, lads!" Bringing it up again at this point is spitting on your supporters and laughing about it.

I'm not super up on the student loan forgiveness thing. But it was a Biden campaign promise. Apparently, something has been done since then:

Biden has forgiven debt for some disabled and defrauded borrowers, and made it easier for those already in the public service loan forgiveness program to have their debt forgiven. So far, his administration has forgiven over $17 billion of student loan debt. Still, borrowers owe over $1.74 trillion, collectively, with federal loans comprising over $1.6 trillion of that.
https://fortune.com/2022/05/04/will-biden-forgive-student-loan-debt-where-things-stand/

I think the thinking now is some sort of $10k forgiveness per borrower. But a bunch of stuff needs to still be worked out like the final amount, qualifications for forgiveness, retroactiveness, etc.

But, to your point, his polling is disaterously low. Mid-terms are 20 minutes away. So the genuiness of motivation behind any of this is certainly questionable. But maybe the ends justify the means. Pretty much every first term president in modern times loses the mid-terms, so it will be interesting to see how many of these populist policies come to the fore to try and break the cycle of a somewhat guaranteed mid-term gutting of the executive branch party in Congress.

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #971 on: May 26, 2022, 07:20:34 AM »
Contrast and compare;

Following the shooting at the school in Uvalde, Texas, Biden took to the mike to offer his sympathies to the families, and to promise to enact legislation to prevent, or at least reduce occurrence of, events like this.

Trump will be speaking at the NRA Convention this weekend, and despite their exhortations that guns make them safer, attendees will be banned from taking their guns into the room for Trump's speech.

Police spokesperson, interviewed after the shooting, stated outright "First, let's thank the brave law enforcement ..." without a thought for the families or their slaughtered children.

Ted Cruz thinks the doors are the problem, and reckons everything will be solved with "one door in, one door out".
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #972 on: May 26, 2022, 08:24:17 AM »
I agree, mostly, with Rushy.  All lip service, no action, doesn't help much.
What it does do is allow congress to pass laws on it and assume the stance of the president on such laws.  Because congress likes to make sure everything will pass before they bother voting.  But if Biden just says "I love gay rights" but then does nothing to ensure they're kept, he's not being very helpful.


Trump will be speaking at the NRA Convention this weekend, and despite their exhortations that guns make them safer, attendees will be banned from taking their guns into the room for Trump's speech.

In fairness, that's likely Secret Service rules + location rules.
See, its ok (well, more ok) for a business to ban guns, but not the state or federal government.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #973 on: May 26, 2022, 02:16:57 PM »
I don't know what his impact was, but for the record, Biden “came out” on same sex marriage way before the SCOTUS ruling in 2015. Specifically, in May of 2012 (Granted, an election year, go figure):

Biden was asked by anchor David Gregory on May 4, 2012, whether he had rethought his longstanding opposition to same-sex marriage. “I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual men and women marrying another are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights, all the civil liberties,” Biden responded. “Who do you love? And will you be loyal to the person you love? And that’s what people are finding out is what all marriages, at their root, are about, whether they’re marriages of lesbians or gay men or heterosexuals.”

And even before Obama “came out”.

Were Biden’s statements genuine? Anyone’s guess.

I was mistaken on that, then. I believed gay marriage to have passed in 2011 and failed to bother looking it up.

I'm not super up on the student loan forgiveness thing. But it was a Biden campaign promise. Apparently, something has been done since then:

Biden has forgiven debt for some disabled and defrauded borrowers, and made it easier for those already in the public service loan forgiveness program to have their debt forgiven. So far, his administration has forgiven over $17 billion of student loan debt. Still, borrowers owe over $1.74 trillion, collectively, with federal loans comprising over $1.6 trillion of that.
https://fortune.com/2022/05/04/will-biden-forgive-student-loan-debt-where-things-stand/

I think the thinking now is some sort of $10k forgiveness per borrower. But a bunch of stuff needs to still be worked out like the final amount, qualifications for forgiveness, retroactiveness, etc.

But, to your point, his polling is disaterously low. Mid-terms are 20 minutes away. So the genuiness of motivation behind any of this is certainly questionable. But maybe the ends justify the means. Pretty much every first term president in modern times loses the mid-terms, so it will be interesting to see how many of these populist policies come to the fore to try and break the cycle of a somewhat guaranteed mid-term gutting of the executive branch party in Congress.

Yes, those are the token loans I mentioned. To put it another way, he ran on forgiving $10,000 in student debt per debtor and then forgave about 0.98% of all student debt. It was very much a "look, I did something!" move in an effort to appease voters. It's better than nothing, but he continually pulls that $10,000 number back out of the bag in time for midterms while knowing that it's not an achievable number.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #974 on: May 26, 2022, 03:08:21 PM »
I don't know what his impact was, but for the record, Biden “came out” on same sex marriage way before the SCOTUS ruling in 2015. Specifically, in May of 2012 (Granted, an election year, go figure):

Biden was asked by anchor David Gregory on May 4, 2012, whether he had rethought his longstanding opposition to same-sex marriage. “I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual men and women marrying another are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights, all the civil liberties,” Biden responded. “Who do you love? And will you be loyal to the person you love? And that’s what people are finding out is what all marriages, at their root, are about, whether they’re marriages of lesbians or gay men or heterosexuals.”

And even before Obama “came out”.

Were Biden’s statements genuine? Anyone’s guess.

Yes, such an early adopter, even before Obama, because no one was thinking about gay rights until the year 2012.  ::)

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Offline honk

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #975 on: May 26, 2022, 06:03:38 PM »
You don't care about gay rights, though.
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Offline stack

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #976 on: May 26, 2022, 08:04:44 PM »
I'm not super up on the student loan forgiveness thing. But it was a Biden campaign promise. Apparently, something has been done since then:

Biden has forgiven debt for some disabled and defrauded borrowers, and made it easier for those already in the public service loan forgiveness program to have their debt forgiven. So far, his administration has forgiven over $17 billion of student loan debt. Still, borrowers owe over $1.74 trillion, collectively, with federal loans comprising over $1.6 trillion of that.
https://fortune.com/2022/05/04/will-biden-forgive-student-loan-debt-where-things-stand/

I think the thinking now is some sort of $10k forgiveness per borrower. But a bunch of stuff needs to still be worked out like the final amount, qualifications for forgiveness, retroactiveness, etc.

But, to your point, his polling is disaterously low. Mid-terms are 20 minutes away. So the genuiness of motivation behind any of this is certainly questionable. But maybe the ends justify the means. Pretty much every first term president in modern times loses the mid-terms, so it will be interesting to see how many of these populist policies come to the fore to try and break the cycle of a somewhat guaranteed mid-term gutting of the executive branch party in Congress.

Yes, those are the token loans I mentioned. To put it another way, he ran on forgiving $10,000 in student debt per debtor and then forgave about 0.98% of all student debt. It was very much a "look, I did something!" move in an effort to appease voters. It's better than nothing, but he continually pulls that $10,000 number back out of the bag in time for midterms while knowing that it's not an achievable number.

Yeah, I agree. He may be genuine, he may not be or somewhere in between. But I'm sure he himself and/or his handlers have a whole bag of stuff they are holding on to for the run-up to the mid-terms. Just waiting to pull something out to dangle in front of voters. And be all carrot/stick, "Look, see! If you don't vote Dem you won't get $10k, you won't get this other thing I said I would do that I haven't even mentioned since the campaign either..."

I'm pretty sure that's the tried and true gameplan for every politician.

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Offline stack

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #977 on: May 26, 2022, 08:10:56 PM »
I don't know what his impact was, but for the record, Biden “came out” on same sex marriage way before the SCOTUS ruling in 2015. Specifically, in May of 2012 (Granted, an election year, go figure):

Biden was asked by anchor David Gregory on May 4, 2012, whether he had rethought his longstanding opposition to same-sex marriage. “I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual men and women marrying another are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights, all the civil liberties,” Biden responded. “Who do you love? And will you be loyal to the person you love? And that’s what people are finding out is what all marriages, at their root, are about, whether they’re marriages of lesbians or gay men or heterosexuals.”

And even before Obama “came out”.

Were Biden’s statements genuine? Anyone’s guess.

Yes, such an early adopter, even before Obama, because no one was thinking about gay rights until the year 2012.  ::)

What point are you failing to make? That Biden didn't come around to advocating for same-sex marriage until 10 years ago? So what? Why do you care?

You've never come around to it and are just as old. So you stand on the wrong side of history and humanity. Good for you. Regardless of motivation, at least he evolved a decade ago. You've never evolved. You're stuck in the 1840's. At least Biden is operating in the 21st century.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #978 on: May 27, 2022, 02:11:00 AM »
I've never said that gays shouldn't be allowed to form a union together or be recognized. I support civil unions. My issue with gay marriage was that they should not necessarily be paid for it.

I don't see how my particular beliefs have anything to do with Joe Biden opposing the marriage of gays for multiple human generations though.

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Offline BillO

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Re: President Joe Biden
« Reply #979 on: May 27, 2022, 02:35:51 AM »
I've never said that gays shouldn't be allowed to form a union together or be recognized. I support civil unions. My issue with gay marriage was that they should not necessarily be paid for it.

I don't see how my particular beliefs have anything to do with Joe Biden opposing the marriage of gays for multiple human generations though.

I may be over stepping my bounds here, but, In my opinion you may be mistaken.  Do you honestly believe that a statement like "Civil Unions did not come with the financial benefits of a heterosexual marriage" is not reprehensible?  Tell me something, what difference does it make to you if two people 500 miles away want to marry, and I mean regardless of how they dress, piss or identify?  Seriously, what gives you, or anyone else, the right to determine what constitutes a marriage? 

Forget all that.  Let me just ask a simple question.  What if a transgender woman that identifies as lesbian wants to marry a transgender man that identifies as gay ?  Is that OK where you are coming from?  After all they were born with different genitals.

Why should any marriage be any different than any other marriage?  Do you feel some sort of personal threat?  Is your own sexuality in doubt?

I honestly do not mean to be obtuse, but I seriously don't get your objection.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 02:39:47 AM by BillO »
Quote from: Ironic Pete
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