221

Flat Earth Community / Re: Eric Dubay shot us down

« on: April 01, 2015, 11:15:43 PM »

Dubay does make good videos and has written books etc.

Indeed. The flat earth research he does is decent.

Unfortunately, Eric DuBay incorporates prejudices against Jews and communists in his views of conspiracy and is thereby totally unnecessarily giving flat earth inquiry a bad reputation:
http://ifers.boards.net/thread/70/adolf-hitler-real-truth-handle

His website is new with good videos, but it seems unfortunately predisposed towards fascism, and that worldview is a disease that affects his view of history and limits possibilities.

222

Flat Earth Community / Re: Eric Dubay shot us down

« on: March 26, 2015, 03:29:43 PM »

DuBay's forum perhaps has the same purpose that the True Believers category had on Daniel's forum, albeit more active and with better content. That category was created out of an idea of JROA and myself back in 2006 so genuine flat earth believers could have a place to communicate without all the incessant spamming that has always been pervasive on Daniel's forum. I threatened to leave unless it was created and Daniel granted it to us.

His forum was more pathetic then than now as he had no flat earth library, and I had already had a collection which I had been accumulating since my days in Johnson's society. By the way, Daniel was never a member of Johnson's society, and he once specifically said so to me in a message on his forum saying he got into it just after Johnson had passed away.

Daniel inherited his flat earth book collection because he happens to live within driving distance of the University of Liverpool library where Samuel Shenton's library had been donated. I learned this from Robert Schadewald who told me about it over the phone in 1999 before he died. I much later posted the link to the webpage of Shenton's book collection on Daniel's website. So Daniel simply went over there saying he was the president of the flat earth society , and they gave it him. He has done well putting it online it should be said as that is the best thing that could have been done with it.

223

Flat Earth Community / Re: Eric Dubay shot us down

« on: March 26, 2015, 04:59:53 AM »

DuBay's article about controlled opposition echoed what I had thought about Daniel's forum for a long time. Although I do not recall seeing any evidence of any direct connection between Leo Ferrari's organization and Daniel's forum, the fact that their two societies have effectively fulfilled the same purpose or had the same effect is a valid observation in my opinion.

If there is evidence of any connection between them then it would be quite interesting, but I did not recall that DuBay presented anything to this end other than the differing names of the organizations - nothing like common sponsorships or anything like that. There sure is plenty of evidence supporting his accusation against Ferrari as an agent to discredit flat earth belief.

Although I agree with DuBay's criticism of the earth moving upwards theory as absurd, I don't completely concur with his negative conclusions about this forum as so useless. Although I came here as a flat earth believer already myself long ago, I think I can say I've seen a number of folks converted over time on these forums into believers in the flatness of the earth. Also very significantly, the moderators and admins here are a vast improvement over Daniel's forum. I can testify to that.

The average user here and on Daniel's forum is definitely more agnostic than those on DuBay's forum, but in my case that has made my discretion sharper in some areas and even made me into a better Christian dwelling with my enemies, so to speak.

I wanted to note that DuBay has publicly given credit to both this forum and Daniel's forum for the online databases of flat earth books which he says are actually "quite good". The most valuable thing about his forum in my opinion are the well researched videos he has made. I think these are generally good stuff and will only benefit all of us.

Although DuBay is correct in the specific rebuffs he made about Tom Bishop's criticisms, I think his cosmological beliefs and those of Tom Bishop are rather similar. My criticism is that I disagree with DuBay's unfortunate antisemitism which is not particularly discerning, but crude and obtuse like the attitudes found at websites like Stormfront, but it is also unrelated to flat earth theory. So I will take the best of what Eric DuBay has to offer and simply avoid the rest. I suggest the same to others.

224

Flat Earth Media / Matthew Boylan

« on: March 22, 2015, 05:26:06 AM »

A NASA Insider exposes how top NASA and certain military personnel do indeed know that the earth is flat, that Antarctica was concocted to explain away the outer earth made known by increased sea traffic and that all purported photographs of the earth as a globe from outer space are merely paintings by free-lance experts like himself commissioned by NASA for such specific jobs.

225

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENTS: Reunification Proposal

« on: March 22, 2015, 05:12:53 AM »

If my sources are correct (PizaaPlanet), we are waiting on Daniel to move the forums to a seperate server.

If my suspicions are correct, Daniel is waiting on his handler for the go-ahead.

226

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENTS: Reunification Proposal

« on: March 22, 2015, 04:39:50 AM »

Well, it's looking like a rival flat earth group is forming around Eric Dubay who is decidedly more energetic and definitely critical of Daniel Shenton. I noticed that Dubay has another kind of demon, a different weakness: hard core crude anti-semitism which is unfortunate, but he's obviously a better researcher than Daniel. 

Possibly the competition of two sincere flat earth groups with very distinctive followings would be beneficial to the overall cause of scientific truth. I suggest absorbing and benefiting from Dubay's research without of course imbibing his error or joining with him. Keep the best - leave the rest. I perceive it is very important to the future of this forum to be familiar with and keep abreast of Eric DuBay's and Matthew Boylan's publicly shared information. This community is more agnostic and politically left than the crowd forming around Dubay, but the posts and content of his forum are vastly better than Daniel's. This forum as of now has at least one advantage in that it is significantly better organized than DuBay's ifers.boards.net forum.  From what pizza planet says, it does not sound like Daniel has succeeded in rigging this forum to degenerate into a travesty, and that is good.

227

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENTS: Reunification Proposal

« on: March 10, 2015, 11:12:38 PM »

Will you and Parsifal lose ultimate ownership of this forum in case of a split?

No. The forum will remain on a server owned and controlled by Parsifal (either where it currently is or a new VPS dedicated to hosting FES). While we want to build this merger on the atmosphere of mutual trust, I feel that we've taken sufficient precautions in case things go wrong.

If anything does ever go wrong, I might perhaps be the first volunteer to meet him and discuss our concerns:

228

Flat Earth Community / Re: No Transmission Delays to the Moon

« on: March 08, 2015, 09:24:57 PM »

This is so reminiscent of the scenario in Capricorn One where a technician discovered that ground control was receiving the crew's messages before the radio transmissions containing those messages actually arrived. 

After work when he was shooting billiards with Elliot Gould who was very drunk, he told him about it.  As soon as he mentioned the discrepancy, Elliot Gould said "I just sobered up."

@33 minutes

229

Flat Earth Community / Re: Eric Dubay shot us down

« on: March 07, 2015, 09:13:01 AM »

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/03/flat-earth-society-controlled-op.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+atlanteanconspiracy%2FVAhj+%28The+Atlantean+Conspiracy%29

Well this makes very grim reading. Eric is a great FEr, gets lots of media coverage and has written some good books. 

I just read this article by Eric, and I have to say that I completely agree with it. 
I never joined Daniel's society having always considered it repulsive, but I probably will join DuBay's society. 
It very much sounds like the best organization advocating a flat earth that I've come across since Charles Johnson - and that by a long shot.

After looking again at Eric, Eric does seem to be the better researcher in terms of sheer material. Matthew Boylan seems to be the better interviewee.

We should attempt to court them both, The arguments they use are good, but can be refined. A few of the arguments Eric uses are things we've discussed before, are fallacious and don't work. Much of it is good, however. Some things were discussed that even I haven't seen. We can use more people like him.

I concur with these conclusions.

230

Flat Earth Community / Re: Eric Dubay shot us down

« on: March 07, 2015, 08:54:07 AM »

That other guy, Matthew Boylan, is a better pick.

Thanks for the reference.  I'll look check out what Boylan has to say.

I don't know why we would want to court someone who believes in reptilian conspiracies and has a life goal to "expose every conspiracy from Atlantis to Zion," regardless of his ability to create some youtube videos explaining elements of FET.

Of the two books DuBay has written, I agree with your view of his Atlantean conspiracy and avoided it.

However, I did see DuBay's video about flat earth conspiracy and quite agree with it.  He simply puts out good information as far as that goes, and I ordered a copy of his flat earth conspiracy book.    I particularly like what DuBay says about the pervasiveness of computer generated photographs of the earth.  This inspired me to thinking that I ought to demand that even one genuine photograph of a globular earth from overhead be presented by anyone who is taken aback at the mention that such photographs are fabricated since all of such photographs have been fabricated.  I do wonder how much thought and research DuBay devoted to his statement that satellites simply do not exist, but overall it's a good video.



It's good to see flat earth belief spreading it's wings, taking root here and there.  I'm for that all the way.

231

Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Volume I, Section 2: Flat Earth History

« on: March 07, 2015, 06:59:02 AM »

BIBLIOGRAPHY

GENERAL WORKS

‘An Historical Survey of the Cosmology of the Ancients’
By Sir George Lewis
https://books.google.com/books?id=pVsnTktSOIcC&dq=%22speculative%20astronomy%22%20%22The%20End%22&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Dawn of Modern Geography' (3 volumes)
By Raymond Beazeley
Volume 1:
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.39018

'History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science'
By John William Draper

'Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea'
By Christine Garwood

'The History of Cartography'
Edited by J.B. Harley and David Woodward
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/HOC/HOC_V2_B1/Volume2_Book1.html

'Museum of Science and Art'
By Dionysius Lardner

'Budget of Paradoxes'
By August de Morgan

'A History of the Warfare of Theology and Science in Christendom'
By Andrew Dickson White
http://aren.org/prison/documents/religion/Misc/History%20of%20the%20Warfare%20of%20Science%20with%20Theology%20in%20Christendom--Andrew%20Dickson%20White.pdf

'The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe'
By Arthur Koestler (1959)

'Cosmologies' Wikipedia article;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology

232

Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Volume I, Section 2: Flat Earth History

« on: March 07, 2015, 06:26:30 AM »

FLAT EARTH HISTORY

I. ANCIENT COSMOLOGIES

Common Characteristics
    a. Flat Earth
    b. Cosmic Mountain
    c. Flood 

A. ASIATIC

- HEBREW
‘The Hebrew Conception of the World’
By Luis Stadelmann (1970)
This book shows that the ancient Israelites adhered to a flat earth cosmos.
History

- BABYLONIAN 
‘Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography’
By Wayne Horowitz
(of Hebrew University)
This book corroborates the view of Cosmas Indicopleustes that the Greeks inherited their globular beliefs from the Babylonians. Horowitz says ancient Babylonian cosmologies were originally flat earth, but historically most of them posited a spherical earth. Thus, ancient Babylon was the source of the heresy of globularism.
Horowitz also notes that the accuracy of their astronomical observations is irrelevant to the shape of the earth in which they believed.

https://www.amazon.com/Mesopotamian-Cosmic-Geography-Civilizations/dp/1575062151

- ARAB
 
ARAB COSMOS
In Sufi tradition a great mountain called Qaf exists in the northern ocean.   

HISTORY

FOOTNOTES
'The King of the World' by Rene Guenon

- Persian
Persian Cosmos
History
Footnotes

- HINDU

HINDU COSMOS
In an ancient hindu tradition, four Maharajas sit at the four corners of the flat earth.  They have a king over them who resides at the centre underneath the earth.
 
HISTORY
A major medieval Hindu astronomical book known as the Surya Siddhanta is evidence that medieval India adopted and preserved Greek spherical doctrines.   

FOOTNOTES
'King of the World' by Rene Guenon
'Surya Siddhanta'

- Jain
Jain Cosmos
History
Footnotes

- CHINA

CHINESE COSMOS
Zhou Bi Suan Jing
- the ancient Chinese flat earth classic
https://avserzhen.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/astronomy-and-mathematic-in-ancient-china.pdf

HISTORY 
- 'Science and Civilisation in China Volume 3:
Mathematics and the Science of the Heavens and the Earth’
By Joseph Needham
https://www.amazon.com/Science-Civilisation-China-Mathematics-Sciences/dp/0521058015

- ‘When the Earth Was Flat:
Studies in Ancient Greek and Chinese Cosmology’
By Dirk Couprie
https://books.google.com/books/about/When_the_Earth_Was_Flat.html?id=QO51DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

B. EUROPEAN

- GREEK 
‘Heaven and Earth in Ancient Greek Cosmology’
By Dirk Couprie
https://books.google.com/books/about/Heaven_and_Earth_in_Ancient_Greek_Cosmol.html?id=MUmdgyUA8bgC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

- LATIN

- IRELAND

ERIE COSMOS 
The four lands with a capitol located at____.
- Rene Guenon

- Scandinavia
Norse Cosmos

C. AFRICAN 

- Egyptian

D. OCEANUS

Alaska 
Aleutian Cosmos

Nunavut
Inuit Cosmos

- Hawaii
Hawaiian Cosmos
History
Footnotes

- Polynesia

- Maya
Mayan Cosmos

- Inca
Incan Cosmos
History
Footnotes

- Aztec
Nahuan Cosmos
History
Footnotes 

E. CHRISTIAN

CHRISTIAN COSMOS
The Book of Enoch,
The Book of the Courses of the Heavenly Luminaries 

HISTORY
Roman Emperor Constantine I the Great,
had his children tutored by Lactantius   

Russian Old Orthodox Christians (Old Believers) 
https://www.wdl.org/en/item/16970/#fbclid=IwAR0OXiNbyhSoF6UkBLNEpdRGNY4LXnL_sG9zfjgiVbepsa41eokJWUhW3GA

‘Commentary on Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews’
By Saint John Chrysostom

'Dawn of Modern Geography'
By Raymond Beazeley
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.39018
 
'Christian Topography'
By Cosmas Indicopleustes
https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/ct/index.htm

- Review of a scholarly technical history of this book and it’s influence in the Christian East over many centuries: https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2014/2014.07.23

Blessed Jerome of Bethlem
'Cosmology of Aethicus Ister' translated by Michael Herren
https://www.amazon.com/Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Translation-Publications/dp/2503535771

'The Divine Institutes'
By Lactantius
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0240-0320,_Lactantius,_Divinarum_Institutionum_%5BOmnes_Libri_Collecti%5D_%5BSchaff%5D,_EN.pdf

Flat Earth Declarations by Roman Emperor Justinian
'The Madaba Map Centenary 1897-1997'
By Eugenio Piccirillo and Michelle Alliata
http://www.sbf.custodia.org/it/publications/collectio-maior/madaba-map-centenary-1897-1997

F. ETHIOPIA 



G. SAMUEL ROWBOTHAM

‘Plane Truth: A History of the Flat Earth Movement’
By Robert Schadewald
http://www.cantab.net/users/michael.behrend/ebooks/PlaneTruth/pages/index.html

‘Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea’
By Christine Garwood
https://books.google.com/books/about/Flat_Earth.html?id=7uRuzP1RydAC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

‘Flat Earth Clues: End of the World’
By Mark Sargent
- history of the YouTube and meetup flat earth movement from 2014 to 2019
https://www.amazon.com/Flat-Earth-Clues-End-World/dp/1086579003/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&qid=1592092414&refinements=p_27%3AMark+Sargent&s=books&sr=1-2&text=Mark+Sargent

------------------------------------------
Note: Both this outline and the bibliography are works in progress and will be repeatedly updated, organized, and edited as time permits.

233

Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Lets agree on a chapter format

« on: March 07, 2015, 05:46:53 AM »

Recommendation for the chapter footnotes sections:   
Use the format taught in the 'Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association' popularly known as "APA style":
http://www.apastyle.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APA_style

It is the thorough and uniform format used in professional and scientific journals and will help any one including ourselves who would want to look for any of our sources. 

The Purdue Owl is a user friendly online tool which shows how to put references in APA format:
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/


Note:  It is not necessary to have everything in this style from the moment it is written, but the finished product should have it this way if it's done right. 

234

Arts & Entertainment / Re: FES Book Club

« on: March 05, 2015, 05:19:39 AM »

Just got 'Fear Itself' by Ira Katznelson because it criticizes the New Deal from the left.
I ordered it along with his other book 'When Affirmative Action Was White' which argues that affirmative action in the US was distorted by by southern democrats from its inception in the 1960's into maintaining the status quo and that the racist aspects of Johnson's Great Society have roots in Roosevelt's New Deal which leads into his more recent book.

I have a slim history of the Democrat Party by a Trotskyite publisher which I recall entitles one of its chapters 'The Party of Slavery'. I thought this book by Katznelson might give teeth to that perspective with respect to the New Deal era. I understand that the book is not so critical of Roosevelt as of the Congress which was dominated by southern Democrats who were Roosevelt's main opponents in getting New Deal legislation passed & forged a consensus with Roosevelt which tainted the New Deal. According to this book, a given law was passed only if it was okay with the southerners which is why, for example, farm laborers and domestic servants got passed over by the New Deal.

This made me ponder that the Southern aristocracy largely via the Democrat party in actuality ran the country even though it had officially lost the civil war.  I think it also gives teeth to Stalin's declaration back in 1924 that the western democracies are the moderate wing of fascism.

I became acquainted with the Wisconsin school of American historian led by William Appleman Williams which viewed America's cold war anti-communism very critically as that America has always been a virtual colonialist monstrosity non-stop from the British colonial days through to the Cold War, but Williams argued american foreign policy has always been directly connected to its domestic policy. The rich own America and exploit the poor, but an ever expanding empire hides and disguises expiration by giving the exploited the opportunity to escape. This is why a revolution temporarily overthrowing the upper class occurred in France, but not in America. The exploited in France had no where to run and Revolution was much more the only alternative.
The history books by communist party chairman William Z. Foster appear to me to have voiced William Appleman William's ideas a generation before Williams himself (who was considered a radical 1950s and 1960s scholar). Foster was critical of Roosevelt and ran against him for president in 1932. He wrote that the New Deal programs as Roosevelt presented them had a lot of valor, but its effect was to pacify the people who if left to themselves would have changed the American system more drastically. Thus, Foster considered the New Deal a controlled socialism that saved capitalism's ass by preventing what had happened in Russia. Morgan and Rockefeller much preferred to tell a Roosevelt what to do and say to the people rather than have a Lenin kick them out of their houses.

I think Obama and most other recent Democrat presidents are like Roosevelt then. They may be personally inclined to what most people want, but they are willing to and do compromise that by submitting to the desires of other persons who in truth have no interest in democracy at all.

I saw a YouTube video of the author and was partially disappointed and hope the book will be more dynamic than the author's speech. I also get the idea that the more intriguing part of the book about the southern dominated congress is only one third to one half of it, but I'll see when I get home to read it.

235

Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Lets agree on a chapter format

« on: March 02, 2015, 01:26:27 AM »

Each chapter within a volume should have the following sections:

Background: ...

Theory: ...

At least for the flat earth history section of volume one, I think it makes sense to reverse these two explaining a given model first, such as the ancient Hindu flat earth model (theory) and secondly going into its long history (the background) which will bring it up to the current day. If the historical section is given first in each chapter, it could be viewed as a more boring way to present it.

In each chapter, I'll describe the model first such as the river Styx around Hell and Cerberus in the Egyptian model or celestial Mount Meru of the North in the Hindu model. This stuff will be at the beginning of each chapter immediately followed by any questions and answers that connect such things to their equivalents in the modern world.  The histories are intriguing, but they should constitute the latter part of the historical chapters. The same goes for Rowbotham's system although any description of that model given in the introductory volume will not be exhaustive.

236

Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Lets agree on a chapter format

« on: March 02, 2015, 12:48:23 AM »

we should ensure that the time we spend answering a question is not wasted or forgotten into the forum abyss by also putting that answer into the book.

That's one of the good purposes of this project.

Although I am currently overwhelmed with a cross country move, events over the past year in my case are good for this project in the long run. I must say the timing here is either a coincidence or providential. Among other factors, I've had a vast personal library located overseas which includes flat earth books that I acquired years ago. It's been in Greece for some time, and I was finally able to ship it home this winter. Once this is all settled in order, it will only help things on this end.

237

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Bill Nye debates Ken Ham on Creationism

« on: March 02, 2015, 12:15:34 AM »

I know it has been a year, but I've made progress on other fronts. Never the less, much thanks to Tom Bishop for posting the video. I am going to watch all of it.
Also thanks to Bill Nye for participating in this debate.

I thought about Tom's comment about dinosaurs and men, and I think essentially two groups exist who consider much of the other group's beliefs absurd.

I'd like for Bill Nye to press the points about dinosaurs and men coexisting as well as earth's age less than 10,000 years and all the others. To the extent such debates avoid these things, they are pointless and boring since that is the only purpose to debate exactly those points.

To be honest, I think Ham would win in such points if he was only half as good a debater as Bill Nye because Ham has the truth on his side just like Rowbotham did when he won all those debates against the nineteenth century scientific establishment. If anyone should argue that's not the same, then I would politely remind them that Samuel Rowbotham was himself a young earth creationist as was Charles Johnson.

Nye would find Ham's Achilles heel if focused on the flat earth bible which Ham inconsistently and stubbornly refuses to acknowledge.

I'd like to see a debate between Nye and a geocentrist like John Hanson.

238

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Bill Nye debates Ken Ham on Creationism

« on: March 01, 2015, 11:48:00 PM »

Apologize to Tom Bishop for creating a thread so closely related without noticing this one.

When I visited Ham's Creation Museum just two days ago, I noticed this debate for sale on DVD as well as full transcripts in book form at the bookstore.

Wanted to mention that there exists a school of thought these days (to which I also subscribe) which goes well beyond merely asserting that dinosaurs and men coexisted. Most cryptozoogists argue that dinosaurs still live. Furthermore, most of the well known cryptozoologists these days also happen to be agnostics such as Loren Coleman and Mark Hall among most others although a few cryptozoologists are also young earth creationists such as Chad Arment and myself.

239

Science & Alternative Science / Re: The Creation Museum

« on: March 01, 2015, 11:19:57 PM »

Though some of our members will quote bible, quran, or other religious texts, it isn't the official stance of the society.

I think this then is okay because the purpose here is the truth and information about the physical world rather than theology specifically.
Although Charles Johnson's Flat Earth Society of which I was a member did have an officially theological stance as his newsletter makes obvious, I think the attitude of his society and what you have stated is the same policy because the members of Johnson's flat earth society included Jains from India, western atheists, et cetera.

240

Science & Alternative Science / Re: The Creation Museum

« on: March 01, 2015, 11:05:01 PM »

In their library, I cam across books by Michael Oard who like some modern minded creationists had some peculiar ideas. In particular, he hypothesized that natural stone columns like those in Meteora, Greece or Utah's Valley of the Monuments were allegedly not created that way in the beginning, but were hypothetically formed during the flood by the general mass upward surge in plate tectonics allegedly going on at the time.

To me, this particular theory was familiar with nothing so much as some modern flat earthers' "universal accelerator" theory of the earth moving upwards. was passing hypothesis off as fact akin to what atheist theorists do as well. The only difference was they are a group with an understanding that their models will conform to the Bible - unless you go against Newton. They'll criticize Darwin, but Newton is a sacred cow to them.