[Tontogary]

You've raised some good points. So I will look into the sun paths and distances between countries.

Your lines (squares) of lattitude contain right angles, requiring a traveller to turn 90 degrees to maintain an east or west heading at certain points on the globe, that does not happen.

This map does show the equator as a square with right angles. However, you only have to travel slightly away from the corner positions for the lines of latitude to curve again. So with only four very small points on the map causing the line of lattitude to turn exactly 90 degrees, in the middle of the sea, this could be covered up.

Covered up by Who?

I sail those oceans and can promise you we dont need to turn 90 degrees in the ocean to keep sailing east or west.

Last year I went from northern Angola to North East Brazil, in a straight line that did not involve bumping into Liberia

New Zealand is also pretty close to Australia, but unfortunately not so on your map.

[douglips]

Regarding the centripetal acceleration at the equator, this exists and has been measured. This is an important effect when weighing very small quantities such as in the pharmaceutical industry.

These people aren't trying to sell a globe earth conspiracy, they're just trying to make pharmaceuticals.
https://www.pharmamanufacturing.com/articles/2016/mass-measurement-precision-small-objects-pharmaceutical-production/

[edby]

You've raised some good points. So I will look into the sun paths and distances between countries.

Your lines (squares) of lattitude contain right angles, requiring a traveller to turn 90 degrees to maintain an east or west heading at certain points on the globe, that does not happen.

This map does show the equator as a square with right angles. However, you only have to travel slightly away from the corner positions for the lines of latitude to curve again. So with only four very small points on the map causing the line of lattitude to turn exactly 90 degrees, in the middle of the sea, this could be covered up.

But aircraft do not do this. They do not ‘cut the corner’ in order to save time. They go right to the corner and then ‘turn’. Why do they do this? To save fuel. The shortest distance along the equator is along the equator. But this map has the equator as the longest distance. It makes the flight from the Congo to Brazil about three times longer than it actually is, at a rough estimate.

[Max_Almond]

How long is the flight from the Congo to Brazil?

[Tontogary]

How long is the flight from the Congo to Brazil?

Flight from Luanda (Angola) to São Paulo, (Brazil) is a direct flight of 8 hours 30 mins. No places to stop encountering, so direct flight.

Luanda to London is 8 hours 50 mins, so a comparable time really. (I have been on that flight, and it is non stop)

The distance on the map Angola to Brazil, is about 60-75% longer than Angola to UK, even though the flight time is actually shorter...

[Max_Almond]

Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

[Tontogary]

Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

How about Perth to london, Non stop. (Quantas) just started this year.

17 hours 20 minutes from Perth, and the return leg is 16 hours 30 minutes, it does not get any longer.

Emirates do a similar, but slightly shorter Dubai, to Auckland flight, and return. Non stop, nearly 16 hours.

San Francisco to Singapore is also a Non stop service, singapore airlines and united do them, about 16 hours 30 mins. I have travelled that route.

Johannesburg to Perth is 9 hours non stop. Again i have been on that flight.

The flight times on the South Africa to Perth are comparable to the the London too Luanda, but the map shows the distance to be far greater

[davidapple]

So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?

[edby]

So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?

Well there can't be one due to the geometry of space. If you plot distances on a sphere, you find it is geometrically impossible to represent them on a plane surface. So if you find the same problem with distances on the Earth, that suggests it is spherical, no?

[Curious Squirrel]

So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?

Welcome to why we have the 'gem' of "We don't know the distance between New York and Paris" from the FE side. The known/published distances will only work on a sphere. Which means, in order for the Earth to be flat, at the very least the distances across the waters of the world must be inaccurate/unknown. There's no way around that. Which opens up a whole host of worms, the largest being that no vehicle that travels across the waters for long distances, can accurately know it's speed. Or at least something to that effect. It's a bit of a problem really.

[davidapple]

Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

74+ southern hemisphere flights per week? How do you check and are you able to send me a list please?

[iamcpc]

I can also fly from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14.5 hours (the black line on the image which is about 9 CM).
https://imgur.com/a/WASO5

Have you actually taken this journey from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia? Is this really possible?

Have I flown from South America to Australia in roughly 15 hours? Yes.

So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

There is no accurate map of the flat earth that even comes close to matching real life flight/shipping times that we observe daily in real life.

We know these flight/shipping times are accurate because planes/ships have a departing date/time and an arrival date/time.

One proposed idea is that flat earth times and flat earth distances are significantly different than round earth times and round earth distances.
(so the 14.5 round earth hour south america/Australia flight is really like 30 something flat earth hours)

My idea is that in the flat earth map there is some teleportation airplanes to the opposite side of the circle when they leave the circle.

[Max_Almond]

Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

74+ southern hemisphere flights per week? How do you check and are you able to send me a list please?

This was correct as of two years ago:

Johannesburg - Perth - Johannesburg
South African Airways
SA280/281 (SAA280/281)
Departs Johannesburg every day at 21.10
Departs Perth every day at 23.50

Sydney - Johannesburg - Sydney
Qantas
QF63/64 (QFA63/64)
Departs Sydney every day at 10.50
Departs Johannesburg every day at 19.10 (usually)

Johannesburg - Sao Paolo - Johannesburg
South African Airways
SA222/223 (SAA222/223)
Departs Johannesburg every day at 11.10 (sometimes more than one flight per day, also departing 21.35)
Departs Sao Paolo every day at 18.00 (ditto, with extra flight departing 23.35)

Auckland - Santiago - Auckland
LATAM Airlines
LA800/801
Departs Auckland every day at 18.10
Departs Santiago every day at 00.55

Sydney - Santiago - Sydney
Qantas
QF27/28
Departs Sydney Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday at 12.30
Departs Santiago Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday at 14.30

Mauritius - Perth - Mauritius
Air Mauritius
MK440/441
Departs Mauritius Tuesday and Saturday at 22.40
Departs Perth Wednesday and Sunday at 13.05

Auckland - Buenos Aires - Auckland
Air New Zealand
NZ30/31
Departs Auckland Sunday, Tuesday, Friday at 20.05
Departs Buenos Aires Sunday, Tuesday, Friday at 23.59

Luanda - Sao Paolo - Luanda
TAAG Angola Airlines
DT747/746
Departs Luanda every day except Tuesday and Thursday
Departs Sao Paolo every day except Wednesday and Friday

>>>>

So I make that 84 flights every week, and more on occasion.

There may be differences in departure times on certain days, or other flights I'm not aware of. Corrections and additions welcome.

>>>>

There are also other flights which fly to/from the southern hemisphere which may represent difficulties for any flat model, but work out fine on a sphere, such as:

Singapore-Johannesburg
Singapore-Mauritius
Mauritius-Hong Kong
Mauritius-Chengdu
Mauritius-Ghuangzhou
Mauritius-Shanghai
Hong Kong-Johannesburg

And then later on this year there's another transpolar circumnavigation flight, which will pass over both poles. Would be interesting to see which route it will take on any proposed flat earth map:

https://www.overthepoles2018.com/

>>>>

For easy flight finding, I recommend either Skyscanner or Kiwi. In Skyscanner you can enter something like 'Country X' to 'Everywhere' (direct only) and see what comes up. Or Kiwi is good, because you can draw radius circles around, for example, South America, and pretty easily see where all the direct flights go - or, again, use countries/regions.

Other flight finding tools are available.

Cheers.

[davidapple]

I can also fly from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14.5 hours (the black line on the image which is about 9 CM).
https://imgur.com/a/WASO5

Have you actually taken this journey from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia? Is this really possible?

Have I flown from South America to Australia in roughly 15 hours? Yes.

So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

There is no accurate map of the flat earth that even comes close to matching real life flight/shipping times that we observe daily in real life.

We know these flight/shipping times are accurate because planes/ships have a departing date/time and an arrival date/time.

One proposed idea is that flat earth times and flat earth distances are significantly different than round earth times and round earth distances.
(so the 14.5 round earth hour south america/Australia flight is really like 30 something flat earth hours)

My idea is that in the flat earth map there is some teleportation airplanes to the opposite side of the circle when they leave the circle.

Thanks. I'll take a look at this and try to develop my 2D model. I'll try to get all of this data into a relational SQL database and try to visualize it in an application called Gephi. There must be a way of making all of this work.

[Max_Almond]

Yep. I'm sure there is.

Along with flights, also take into account shipping routes - especially across the southern hemisphere oceans:



Tons of information available here: www.marinetraffic.com

[Tontogary]

So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?

Welcome to why we have the 'gem' of "We don't know the distance between New York and Paris" from the FE side. The known/published distances will only work on a sphere. Which means, in order for the Earth to be flat, at the very least the distances across the waters of the world must be inaccurate/unknown. There's no way around that. Which opens up a whole host of worms, the largest being that no vehicle that travels across the waters for long distances, can accurately know it's speed. Or at least something to that effect. It's a bit of a problem really.

To be fair i have not seen the claim that ships speed is inaccurate, airplanes yes, (although incorrect) but not specifically ships, and i have s=described why and how we calibrate ships logs to be accurate to within about 2% of a distance, irrespective of it being flat earth or globe earth.

Distance tables are available for shipping distances, however it is important to be aware that for a distance from New York to say San Francisco, the distance given will be via Panama Canal avoiding land. Therefore it is necessary to chose ocean ports to ocean port, say Durban to Perth, which have no intervening land mass,

The real Beauty of knowing that the ships measured distance is accurate is that it verifies distances that are calculated on the globe earth, and the method of calculating shipping distances is the same as that used for airline distances, and therefore verifies the airline distances, which in main are shortest distances.

[iamcpc]

Thanks. I'll take a look at this and try to develop my 2D model. I'll try to get all of this data into a relational SQL database and try to visualize it in an application called Gephi. There must be a way of making all of this work.

keep in mind that the longest direct flight, per the article listed below, is 17.5 "round earth" hours.
https://www.hopper.com/articles/1049/the-worlds-20-longest-non-stop-flights


It has been suggested that our current time system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our current distance system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our measurement system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.


Without the ability to measure "flat earth" distances creating any sort of map is impossible as measuring distance is the foundation of cartography.



In the dome flat earth model it has been suggested that something flying through the dome would instantly teleport to the corresponding opposite side of the dome.

[Tontogary]

Thanks. I'll take a look at this and try to develop my 2D model. I'll try to get all of this data into a relational SQL database and try to visualize it in an application called Gephi. There must be a way of making all of this work.

keep in mind that the longest direct flight, per the article listed below, is 17.5 "round earth" hours.
https://www.hopper.com/articles/1049/the-worlds-20-longest-non-stop-flights


It has been suggested that our current time system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our current distance system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our measurement system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.


Without the ability to measure "flat earth" distances creating any sort of map is impossible as measuring distance is the foundation of cartography.



In the dome flat earth model it has been suggested that something flying through the dome would instantly teleport to the corresponding opposite side of the dome.

But we can measure flat earth distance. If the world is flat that is.......

Our logs on ships are calibrated to the sea bed using Doppler, so if the world is flat, then the distances given are “flat earth” distances.
If the world is a globe, then the distances are Globe Earth distances.

Therefore using the fact we can show our logs are within 2% of the calculated distances, we can show that the calculated distances are in fact correct if the world is either global or flat.

Just take the distances and try to put them on a model.............
And keep an open mind about the results...........

[douglips]

When you are able to measure distances, as between two places on the same continent by e.g. driving, you find that 1 degree latitude straight north or south corresponds to 60 nautical miles, and that 1 degree longitude straight east or west corresponds to 60 nautical miles * cosine(latitude). This also works in the southern hemisphere.

So, in order to make all of this work, you also have to assume that this relationship does not hold over water for some reason, despite many centuries of people navigating via latitude/longitude over the oceans.

You also have to ask yourself why this perfectly aligns with a spherical earth model. Yes, I know, oblate spheroid, but it's so close to being a sphere that it might as well be, at least compared to, say, a flat model.

The phrase is "cognitive dissonance", and the reason you have it is because you are trying to examine evidence and fit it into a model that has been shown to not fit the evidence for thousands of years. Keep at it, and you will either start to ignore the evidence, or you will convince yourself the earth is not flat.

[douglips]

Thanks for posting your video here, I thought I'd go through it to discuss the various points made.

1:42 - Why are the continents different sizes in different earth pictures?

Pictures taken of an object from different distances will necessarily have different parts of that object take up different areas of the photo. Consider, for example, a photo like this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/97493871@N06/9292183111
Yes, that's a fisheye lens, but the same principle applies - if you are closer to the earth you will be able to see less of the surface, so North America or whatever you're looking at will be filling a bigger proportion of the image than if you were farther away.

1:52 -  Space photos are all composites.

No, they aren't. Many of them are, but many of them aren't. They also aren't all NASA photos - you can see non-composite images from:
Russian satellites:
https://gizmodo.com/5909215/this-is-the-definitive-photograph-of-planet-earth  (false color)


GOES weather satellites:
- OK sure, this is NASA.


Japan: https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/

3:00 - Problems with projections of the Earth.
That is the main focus of this thread. I do want to call out one thing - you mention that the southern land masses look "contrived". There are millions of people living in southern Africa, South America, and Australia, so the land masses are really that shape.  I agree with you it's interesting how there is so much ocean to the south, and so much land to the north, but it doesn't seem suspicious to me, just random.

4:00 - Centrifugal force at the equator.
See my above link/graph, this is measurable.
The thing to remember about rotational motion is that it's not the linear velocity that is felt, it's the rotational velocity. A children's merry-go-round that is rotating only at 1 rotation per day would not even be noticeable to most people. If you do the math, you'll find it's a tiny fraction of gravity, and that's what that graph shows.

See also the Eotvos effect - objects travelling east are lighter than objects travelling west.

4:28 - Space is a vacuum, why doesn't it suck up all the air?
As you go higher and higher in the atmosphere, the pressure decreases. Why doesn't the lower pressure area on top of the mountains suck up all the air from near the oceans? If the pressure decreases as we've observed, what happens if you keep going higher? Does the pressure ever go to zero?

4:34 - Bedford Level experiment
This experiment can be repeated, even by you, in modern times. People who have repeated it have found it wanting.
Here's one version. You can watch the whole thing, or just the part starting at 6:34 where a helicopter is viewed through a telescope and flies below the horizon.
For one interesting version of the Bedford level, look at the power poles on lake Pontchartrain
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8220.0
Some people argue that the pictures are fake, but you can go there yourself (with suitable equipment) and see for yourself.
Arguing that the pictures are fake is no better than arguing that Rowbotham fabricated the Bedford Level experiment. The entire point of experiments is you can repeat them.

4:55 Shining Rock wilderness
I don't have a lot of context to know what is level in that sense. For a good experiment on such a topic, see Bobby Shafto's work here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9492.0
He built some equipment to detect where eye level is, and measures heights of various mountains.
See also other pictures of mountain ranges like this:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9751.0
Especailly this one:


That's all I've got time for now, I'll keep watching later when I get the chance.