Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #760 on: September 14, 2021, 11:19:22 PM »
If you're going to continue in your habit of posting lies, you need to leave.

LOL be careful of the standards you set, lackless. People might hold you to it some day

The muppet you refer to took the vaccine after getting infected with covid. Then blames his body 'never being the same' on the vaccine. (couldn't possibly be covid) ::)

His claim 'to be the inventor' of mRNA tech is also questionable.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #761 on: September 15, 2021, 05:04:42 AM »
Quote from: stash
What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there.

Wrong. It's not the same formula. Maybe do some research before repeating falsities.

Maybe you should take your own advice. Why don't you explain to us how the presence of "optimized codons" changes the formulation that is still considered the same formulation by the FDA?

If you want to know what they do look it up yourself. You claimed it was the same formula. It's not, as stated by the FDA.

Quote from: stack
Rather speculative..."In a few weeks, maybe they'll say in another few weeks..." and so on. Maybe. Speculation duly noted.

You cited speculation. The source said October "at the earliest", while other sources in the article said there was no timeframe available.




Quote from: stack
When my wife was mandated by her employer to get vaxxed, she couldn't choose J&J or Moderna because they weren't available. So what?

What does your wife's irresponsible life choices have to do with this?

It was claimed in this thread that the vaccine was FDA approved and this approval was given as justification for the vaccine mandates. This reasoning and justification is flawed since the vaccine that was approved is not available in the US.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 06:17:25 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #762 on: September 15, 2021, 06:20:22 AM »
Quote from: stash
What exactly is the issue here? There is supply already out there being used to vaccinate folks. Why would they be sending out re-labeled same formulation vaccines when the stuff is already out there.

Wrong. It's not the same formula. Maybe do some research before repeating falsities.

Maybe you should take your own advice. Why don't you explain to us how the presence of "optimized codons" changes the formulation that is still considered the same formulation by the FDA?

If you want to know what they do look it up yourself. You claimed it was the same formula. It's not, as stated by the FDA.

I did look it up. The FDA seems to disagree with you. You seemed to have missed what was posted before, from the FDA as part of their approval (My bolding, and a little red, this time so maybe you won't miss it):

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Again, I'm sure you know a lot more about optimized codons than anyone here or at the FDA. Lay it on us why the FDA says it's the same formulation but your insight into codon optimization is contrary to what the FDA says. School us.

Quote from: stack
Rather speculative..."In a few weeks, maybe they'll say in another few weeks..." and so on. Maybe. Speculation duly noted.

You cited speculation. The source said October "at earliest", while other sources in the article said there was no timeframe available.




Great, so how does this fit into some sort of no liability narrative? Still speculative. One person says maybe October. Another says they don't have a timeline. So what? What's the narrative you'r trying to assert?

Quote from: stack
When my wife was mandated by her employer to get vaxxed, she couldn't choose J&J or Moderna because they weren't available. So what?

What does your wife's irresponsible life choices have to do with this?

Irresponsible? This seems irresponsible: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

In answer to your question, availability of specific vaxs or lack thereof. Which seems to be contentious for some reason. I don't know why.

It was claimed in this thread that the vaccine was FDA approved and this approval was given as justification for the vaccine mandates. This reasoning and justification is flawed since the vaccine that was approved is not available in the US.

I might of missed it. Who claimed that "approval was given as justification for the vaccine mandates"? I think there's some case law around States mandating approved vaccines going back to the 20's & 50's (As in 1920's and 1950's). So yeah, I think "approved" vaccines might make it easier, legally, to require mandates. As for "flawed justification", it seems very complicated. But that said, the Biden mandates will definitely get mired in the courts. No doubt about that. Your opinion on the matter is noted.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #763 on: September 15, 2021, 07:40:09 AM »
I did look it up. The FDA seems to disagree with you. You seemed to have missed what was posted before, from the FDA as part of their approval (My bolding, and a little red, this time so maybe you won't miss it):

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Your understanding of same formulation is incorrect. The FDA defines their meaning of same formulation right here on their definitions page:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=314.3

Sec. 314.3 Definitions.

Quote
Same drug product formulation is the formulation of the drug product submitted for approval and any formulations that have minor differences in composition or method of manufacture from the formulation submitted for approval, but are similar enough to be relevant to the Agency's determination of bioequivalence.

It's a different composition that is determined to have 'bioequivalence'.

Bioequivalence is also defined on that page:

Quote
Bioequivalence is the absence of a significant difference in the rate and extent to which the active ingredient or active moiety in pharmaceutical equivalents or pharmaceutical alternatives becomes available at the site of drug action when administered at the same molar dose under similar conditions in an appropriately designed study. Where there is an intentional difference in rate (e.g., in certain extended-release dosage forms), certain pharmaceutical equivalents or alternatives may be considered bioequivalent if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action.

The definition includes extended-release dosages and alternatives. So their terminology is fairly loose. Same formulation means that it may have a different composition but they think it's equivalent. According to the above definition it could be a completely different alternative drug and still be a 'same formulation'.

Quote
Again, I'm sure you know a lot more about optimized codons than anyone here or at the FDA. Lay it on us why the FDA says it's the same formulation but your insight into codon optimization is contrary to what the FDA says. School us.

'Same formulation' is defined by the FDA above. It's not what you think it means.

Regarding the codon optimization, if you want to learn about it I would recommend researching the topic yourself. It deals with genetic engineering:

http://2014.igem.org/Team:Penn_State/CodonOptimization

Quote
Codon optimization refers to the idea that the individual codons of a gene in a specific organism can be changed in order to alter the behavior of that organism. This relies on an understanding of the central dogma of biology, which states that any organism produces proteins by first transcribing genetic material in the form of DNA to RNA, which is then “read” by ribosomes which produce proteins based on the sequence of amino acids in that RNA. The reading of the RNA is done three nucleotides at a time, and these three letter series of nucleotides are called codons. Codons specify to the ribosome which amino acid to add to a growing amino acid chain.

There are 4 nucleotides, thus 43, or 64 codons are possible. Since there are only 20 amino acids, there is redundancy in the codons, that is, some amino acids are specified by multiple codons. There is no ambiguity, however, meaning that each codon specifies only one amino acid. Codons that code for the same amino acid are called degenerate codons, and even though these degenerate codons code for the same amino acid, they do not necessarily lead to the same expression levels of that amino acid.

Quote from: stack
Great, so how does this fit into some sort of no liability narrative? Still speculative. One person says maybe October. Another says they don't have a timeline. So what? What's the narrative you'r trying to assert?

The narrative is that the FDA did not approve a vaccine that's available. I don't see that this is incorrect.

Quote from: stack
Irresponsible? This seems irresponsible: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

Yet you know that they changed the way Covid deaths are defined differently compared to other diseases, making your list meaningless and speculative. In years past deaths were not reported as a flu death if they die from a motorcycle accident. Those people could have had an asymptomatic Covid disease but died of something completely unrelated according to some of these quotes -

Oregon Health Authority:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

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So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

Dr. Birx says the same:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html

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Dr. Birx: Unlike Some Countries, "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death"

At Tuesday's White House coronavirus press conference, task force member Dr. Deborah Birx said that while some countries are reporting coronavirus fatality numbers differently, in the U.S. you are counted as a victim of the pandemic if you die while testing positive for the virus, even if something else causes your death.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX: "So, I think in this country we've taken a very liberal approach to mortality. And I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn't testing in January and February that's a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem some countries are recording as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we are still recording it and we will I mean the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to market as COVID-19 infection the intent is right now that those if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

Illinois Department of Public Health said they count the same way:

https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

Quote
IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified

Still, the department's Director, Dr. Ngozi Ezike used part of her time during Sunday's health briefing to explain how the department determines if a death is related to Coronavirus.

Essentially, Dr. Ezike explained that anyone who passes away after testing positive for the virus is included in that category.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

She reiterated Illinois health officials will continue to work vigorously to protect the state's most vulnerable populations.

Lots of quotes and examples here:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated

Quote
“I think a lot of clinicians are putting that condition (COVID-19) on death certificates when it might not be accurate because they died with coronavirus and not of coronavirus,” Macomb County, Mich., Chief Medical Examiner Daniel Spitz in an interview with the Ann Arbor News last month.

...

Colorado counted a man who a county coroner said died of acute alcohol poisoning as a COVID-19 death.

Montezuma County Coroner George Deavers told the Durango Herald the man’s blood-alcohol level was 0.55, or almost seven times the legal driving limit of 0.08 in Colorado. A BAC of 0.3 is considered lethal.

“COVID was not listed on the death certificate as the cause of death,” Deavers said, the paper reported Wednesday. “I disagree with the state for listing it as a COVID death, and will be discussing it with them this week.”

...

News reports have identified the man as Sebastian Yellow, 35, and reported that he was found dead by police May 4.

The Montezuma County Public Health Department also was refusing to report Yellow's death as a COVID-19 death. “The state is reporting that death as a COVID death, but our health department wanted to let people know that even though the person did have the virus, they did not die from it,” the agency said.

In response to a request for comment about Yellow’s death, the Colorado Department of Health told KCNC-TV that it classifies a death as confirmed when there is a positive SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) laboratory test.


...

Last month, the same agency reclassified three deaths at a Centennial nursing home as COVID-19 deaths, challenging the findings of attending physicians who ruled the deaths were unrelated to the virus.

The deaths occurred at Someren Glen, where four other residents died of COVID-19. The state has now recorded all seven deaths as COVID-19 deaths.

“We have never seen a situation where the health department overrules a physician’s findings,” Tim Rogers, the facility’s executive director, told KCNC. “However, these are unprecedented times and the health department official did not share their motivation for changing physician’s orders.”

A health department spokesman told the station of those deaths that the agency was following CDC guidance.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 08:14:32 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #764 on: September 15, 2021, 08:36:05 AM »
I did look it up. The FDA seems to disagree with you. You seemed to have missed what was posted before, from the FDA as part of their approval (My bolding, and a little red, this time so maybe you won't miss it):

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Your understanding of same formulation is incorrect. The FDA defines their meaning of same formulation right here on their definitions page:

I’m not sure why we are going over this again. It’s not “my understanding”. The FDA literally states, as seen above for the third time:

"The FDA-approved COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.1"

I really don’t get how their usage of the words “have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably”, somehow is lost on you.

It seems you disagree with the FDA and their approval of the Pfizer vax. Good for you. Have fun with that.

And I have no idea where you’re going with all the Birx quotes and such.

The bottom line, if you don’t agree with the FDA and their approval, take it up with your congressperson. In the mean time the FDA approved the Pfizer vax and their stance is that it’s the same formulation as the EUA.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #765 on: September 15, 2021, 08:59:21 AM »
Repeating yourself? Same formulation has a particular meaning for the FDA. It doesn't mean that the composition is the same. And obviously not, since they specify that there are differences. They define what they mean. You just have to go and look it up. I provided the definitions to you here:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=314.3

Sec. 314.3 Definitions.

Quote
Same drug product formulation is the formulation of the drug product submitted for approval and any formulations that have minor differences in composition or method of manufacture from the formulation submitted for approval, but are similar enough to be relevant to the Agency's determination of bioequivalence.

It's a different composition that is determined to have 'bioequivalence'.

Bioequivalence is also defined on that page:

Quote
Bioequivalence is the absence of a significant difference in the rate and extent to which the active ingredient or active moiety in pharmaceutical equivalents or pharmaceutical alternatives becomes available at the site of drug action when administered at the same molar dose under similar conditions in an appropriately designed study. Where there is an intentional difference in rate (e.g., in certain extended-release dosage forms), certain pharmaceutical equivalents or alternatives may be considered bioequivalent if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action.

The definition includes extended-release dosages and alternatives. So their terminology is fairly loose. Same formulation means that it may have a different composition but they think it's equivalent. According to the above definition it could be a completely different alternative drug and still be a 'same formulation'.

See "if there is no significant difference in the extent to which the active ingredient or moiety from each product becomes available at the site of drug action" - It could have a completely different delivery mechanism, but as long as it puts the active ingredient in the right place, it's bioequivalent.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 09:10:35 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #766 on: September 15, 2021, 09:18:35 AM »
Hey Tom, did you get vaccinated? You look old. Hope you protected yourself

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #767 on: September 15, 2021, 10:19:40 AM »
 I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #768 on: September 15, 2021, 10:39:43 AM »
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

I wonder if Tom takes the threat of Covid seriously. It's already killed more Americans in less than 2 years then every war and conflict and terrorist act over the last 120 years.

Everyone is going to get covid eventually. Even I'm resigned to that fact. Maybe not this year or next, but as sure as I get a cold, I'll get covid.

Tom will too. Will he ensure he's protected as much as able? Or will we see him on sorry antivaxxer.com?

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #769 on: September 15, 2021, 10:40:56 AM »
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

He'll just keep.pushing the date back, like Trump's reinstatement.

So next month we'll all die by Christmas.
After that sometime in 2022.
Eventually he'll push it back to 2100 and proclaim victory.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline nthurd

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #770 on: September 15, 2021, 12:07:47 PM »
If you're going to continue in your habit of posting lies, you need to leave.

LOL be careful of the standards you set, lackless. People might hold you to it some day

The muppet you refer to took the vaccine after getting infected with covid. Then blames his body 'never being the same' on the vaccine. (couldn't possibly be covid) ::)

His claim 'to be the inventor' of mRNA tech is also questionable.

I got from this article that consensus of the scientists is that the "muppet" is an asshole but might well deserve a Nobel for his input in development of mRNA.
Funny how the articles "tone" paints him as a cook, while facts presented in the article tell different story.

Logic behind "got covid, blames vaccine" looks like based on observation "got covid, had symptoms, got vaccinated -> more symptoms". Sketchy, anecdotal but possible.

BTW I am getting J&J tomorrow.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #771 on: September 15, 2021, 12:08:14 PM »
Lots of quotes and examples here:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated

Perfect. Tom you are quoting a Fox News article that is over a year old. A hundred thousand people in the US have died since then including two that I know. The reporter that wrote that article along with most of the Fox staff are now vaccinated.

Here's that same reporter a year later:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/the-number-of-positive-coronavirus-tests-in-new-york-climb-to-highest-since-early-june

You are being played. These people are using you as a mindless minion to attack the left. Covid is just their latest issue like the homosexual agenda or the rise of socialism. And just like a guy I know, you might end up reposting their lies from your hospital bed while the vaccinated Fox news crew goes out to dinner and bitches about liberals.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/11/business/media/vaccines-fox-news-hosts.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/as-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-mounts-so-does-the-belief-it-is-exaggerated
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #772 on: September 15, 2021, 01:57:04 PM »
You forget the law of large numbers

A covid fatality rate of 1%.... Letting covid rip through America would cause millions of deaths
I'm not forgetting that. I never claimed that this was a "nothing to see here" situation as some are doing.
It was clearly a situation which required a response. I'm not convinced the response was right, but that's a different debate.
So yes, the restrictions were needed and the vaccine rollout important. No argument there.

Quote
And lets be honest, covid is here to stay and will continue to mutate and affect you again and again and it's going to catch everyone eventually - like 'The Cold'. Imagine a 1% CFR each time it mutates and turns into something else. You want to take that chance year after year? Natural immunity wont work. Just like getting infected with influenza wont protect you next year from influenza

I don't know about that. The Spanish Flu killed 50 million people worldwide, we don't have that every year now. I don't know whether people just collectively developed immunity but these things tend not to last forever, that one lasted 2 years. If this is the same then we're not out of the woods yet but we do have the vaccine this time which hopefully will yield a better outcome.

Quote
Currently the overwhelming majority of covid related deaths (as in ~99%) now are among the unvaccinated. The breakthrough infections that lead to death are usually in people with co-morbidities or elderly. In a place like America, to not be vaccinated at this point in time is because you chose not to.
Right. And that's the same in the UK. People are choosing to not get vaccinated, it is mostly them who are getting ill.
The question is what do you do about that? It's their lookout if they do something (or don't do something) which means they're more likely to get ill. But as I said to Roundy, people do things all the time which make them more likely to get ill. We generally don't deny them treatment because of it.

I generally think people should get vaccinated. But some people are acting like those who don't are a serious danger to themselves and everyone around them. I'd agree they are increasing the risk to themselves and others. But enough that they should be denied access to certain venues or certain jobs? I'm not so sure.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline junker

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #773 on: September 15, 2021, 04:07:05 PM »
then your beliefs are as unfounded as your intellect.

Keep it in AR. Warned.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #774 on: September 15, 2021, 04:14:15 PM »
I generally think people should get vaccinated. But some people are acting like those who don't are a serious danger to themselves and everyone around them. I'd agree they are increasing the risk to themselves and others. But enough that they should be denied access to certain venues or certain jobs? I'm not so sure.

If it's my venue or my job I should have the right to say stay the fuck away from us you diseased freak.

It's the same thing conservatives have told homosexuals for years.
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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #775 on: September 15, 2021, 04:20:21 PM »
1 in 500 Americans.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/15/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

But hey, it's just the flu.  Who needs a vax.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #776 on: September 15, 2021, 05:08:22 PM »
The unhealthy. They need the vax. Everyone else will be fine.
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #777 on: September 15, 2021, 05:17:01 PM »
The unhealthy. They need the vax. Everyone else will be fine.
Young and healthy people also die.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #778 on: September 15, 2021, 06:04:43 PM »
I’m still not sure what the fuss is about. A vaccine that the FDA seems to have the same formulation as the EUA vaccine has been approved. Tom’s text wall just seems like he is trying to cope with the reality that vaccines aren’t killing people.

I wonder if Tom takes the threat of Covid seriously. It's already killed more Americans in less than 2 years then every war and conflict and terrorist act over the last 120 years.

Everyone is going to get covid eventually. Even I'm resigned to that fact. Maybe not this year or next, but as sure as I get a cold, I'll get covid.

Tom will too. Will he ensure he's protected as much as able? Or will we see him on sorry antivaxxer.com?

What are you talking about? If they are counting people who died of motorcycle accidents, unrelated ailments, alcohol poisonings, and chronically ill people who were previously given a few weeks to live as Covid deaths like it says in those quotes then you are being lied to and your premise is based on a falsity. Can you agree that if the quotes are true then your world view is false?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 06:40:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #779 on: September 15, 2021, 06:38:02 PM »
I generally think people should get vaccinated. But some people are acting like those who don't are a serious danger to themselves and everyone around them. I'd agree they are increasing the risk to themselves and others. But enough that they should be denied access to certain venues or certain jobs? I'm not so sure.

If it's my venue or my job I should have the right to say stay the fuck away from us you diseased freak.

It's the same thing conservatives have told homosexuals for years.
Well, sure. Then the market decides.
Nightclubs which would only let vaccinated people in might go bust. Or maybe they wouldn’t, that might be a popular thing if people feel unsafe around unvaccinated.
So sure, private businesses do have a right to decide who they serve up to a point - that point being when it’s discriminatory as defined by certain protected criteria.
 
But if the government declares that only vaccinated people can do certain things, that’s where I feel a dangerous precedent is being set. Unless unvaccinated people pose such a big risk to others I guess, but I don’t really buy that’s the case here.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis