The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: MCToon on September 24, 2018, 06:53:59 PM

Title: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 24, 2018, 06:53:59 PM
Not having a map is troublesome.  For a flat earth a map is easier than for a globe as there is no projection required.  To help creating a map I have been thinking about what is required.

There are a couple sample FE maps, the AE map and variants has been shown to be incorrect for several reasons, which is not the point of this thread.  A bi-polar map has been proposed, the caveat of the sample map has been that it's not meant top be accurate, just an example showing a north pole and a south pole and antarctica as a continent.  The edges of the world are left off, ice wall or infinite plane are considered, but, again, what's not on the map is not the point of this thread.

This thread is to collect some information on what is required by a map regardless of the layout.  I have several basic real world observations that can be agreed upon by everyone.

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
Requires: The equator must be straight, not curved. 

2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
Requires: The tropic of cancer must be straight, not curved. 

3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
Requires: The tropic of capricorn must be straight, not curved. 

4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
Requires: To be discussed.

5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Requires: To be discussed.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 24, 2018, 07:36:06 PM
Timely. I was writing this up a few days ago, but never got around to posting it:

"How about a working map of the Flat Earth?

FE Society resources are slim, so why not take a leap and try and figure out how a planar earth may actually look and work. I’d like to try and do that.

Problem from the outset:

Models - Which one to choose? You’ve got the mono-pole (I call ‘classic’), the bi-polar (unfortunate name, but so be it), I’ve read about the ‘dual earth’ (I call the ‘Oreo’, no disrespect, but it’s kind of cookie shaped; top, bottom, something in the middle) and the infinite plane. The latter could actually be any of the former, just with ‘more’, infinitely more, as it were. And I’m sure there are others, these are just the ones I’ve read about.

Disclaimer: I’m not trying to start a debate. I will elsewhere, but not for this effort.

So, which model to embark on is the question."


My intent was the same as yours; try to make an FE map. But, as evidenced above, I got hung up on which model. I think it's important to pick one and then start applying your (and others) observations/requirements to it.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: robinofloxley on September 25, 2018, 11:13:32 AM
The starting point for a map is a model and then a coordinate system, so if you pick a model and can draw lines of latitude and longitude then the rest follows from that.

A while back I was teaching myself the basics of 2D and 3D graphics in the C# programming language for fun and wondered if I could generate my own maps. I came across http://www.geonames.org/ (http://www.geonames.org/) which has a massive database of freely downloadable "features". A feature could be anything, a building, a road, river, gas/oil platform, you name it. Each feature has an associated country code and latitude/longitude location info.

To cut a long story short, I basically wrote a program to read the "all counties" features file (11 million odd features) and plot each feature as a dot on a map with a different colour for each country. What you end up with is a nicely coloured world map based on the model of your choice. I made a spherical 3D globe plus north and south pole centric mono-pole 2D maps and they looked pretty good.

I discovered a few interesting things along the way. Antarctica you can barely make out because so little of it has any features. Parts of the US and Australia are similarly sparse. The interior of Brazil is fascinating because presumably everyone lives on or near the banks of the Amazon or its major tributaries, so pretty much all you see is the spidery outline of the rivers.

For larks, I also added point of view and zoom features to my 3D globe and had a go at recreating the original "Blue Marble" Apollo 17 photo - basically set my point of view 18k miles away and zoomed in - pretty damned perfect match.

Anyway, I digress, the point is forget about a map, with a bit of programming know-how, that'll draw itself. Come up with model and a diagram with latitude/longitude on it that works and the countries can draw themselves.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 25, 2018, 04:23:37 PM
Stack, Robinofloxley,
Good points on the model.  However, I'm concerned in the thread about the required elements.

If possible, I would like to see discussion on the 5 observations I mentioned.  I chose these observations because they are easy to understand, they are possible to confirm if someone has doubts, and, lacking doubts, the data is easily available online via timeanddate.com or other sources.  Of greatest importance, is that the observations should be acceptable by people from all camps.

I do not expect the observations will have much or any disagreement.  It would be good to have several people verify my observations.

Observations 4 and 5 are somewhat redundant.  They are slightly different in that #5 is a specific instance of #4.  I left them separate in case the generalized #4 has detractors.

Here are the observations again:

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Does anyone see any problems with these?  Does anyone have any similarly easy to understand and observe things to add that people from all camps will likely accept?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 25, 2018, 08:10:08 PM
There are a couple sample FE maps, the AE map and variants has been shown to be incorrect for several reasons, which is not the point of this thread.  A bi-polar map has been proposed, the caveat of the sample map has been that it's not meant top be accurate, just an example showing a north pole and a south pole and antarctica as a continent.  The edges of the world are left off, ice wall or infinite plane are considered, but, again, what's not on the map is not the point of this thread.

This thread is to collect some information on what is required by a map regardless of the layout.  I have several basic real world observations that can be agreed upon by everyone.

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
Requires: The equator must be straight, not curved. 

2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
Requires: The tropic of cancer must be straight, not curved. 

3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
Requires: The tropic of capricorn must be straight, not curved. 

4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
Requires: To be discussed.

5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Requires: To be discussed.

To me a map is more about distance and direction than equinox position. I have never before seen or used any map that had anything to do with observed equinox position.

Before getting that advanced why don't you just start with basic distances and directions.

Directions:
Is the United states north/south/east/west from Brazil?

Distance
The united states is X miles from Brazil.

These distances and directions should match the distances and directions which have been corroborated by hundreds of thousands of people via travel times, travel distances, navigation, shipping, cartography, surveying etc.


We have determined through hundreds of thousands of measurements and observations in regards to cartography, navigation, shipping times, travel times, etc.  that the distance between Santiago and Sydney is about 7,000 miles and The distance between LA and Sydney is about 7,500 miles.



As an example each one of these maps has a huge problem where the distances don't match observed and measured distances:
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Rowbotham_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Charles_K._Johnson_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Gleason%27s_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Voliva_map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Orlando_Ferguson_Map.jpg

None of these maps can possibly be correct because they all show the distance between LA and Sydney is one half of the distance between Santiago and Sydney which is blatantly incorrect.




Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 25, 2018, 08:35:25 PM
None of these maps can possibly be correct because they all show the distance between LA and Sydney is one half of the distance between Santiago and Sydney which is blatantly incorrect.

Herein lies the rub as to why an FE map is so difficult. If one attempts to get distances correct, it breaks the sun. If one tries to get the sun right, it breaks distances.  I've been looking at other efforts and no one has been able to crack the code of this paradox, at least that I have found. Not to say it can't be done, but thus far I haven't been able to find a single instance where an FE map has even come close to matching observable reality. 

But you have to start somewhere so I'll go with 'yes' to MCToon's requirements/constraints.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 25, 2018, 08:55:49 PM
There are a couple sample FE maps, the AE map and variants has been shown to be incorrect for several reasons, which is not the point of this thread.  A bi-polar map has been proposed, the caveat of the sample map has been that it's not meant top be accurate, just an example showing a north pole and a south pole and antarctica as a continent.  The edges of the world are left off, ice wall or infinite plane are considered, but, again, what's not on the map is not the point of this thread.

This thread is to collect some information on what is required by a map regardless of the layout.  I have several basic real world observations that can be agreed upon by everyone.

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
Requires: The equator must be straight, not curved. 

2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
Requires: The tropic of cancer must be straight, not curved. 

3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
Requires: The tropic of capricorn must be straight, not curved. 

4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
Requires: To be discussed.

5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Requires: To be discussed.

To me a map is more about distance and direction than equinox position. I have never before seen or used any map that had anything to do with observed equinox position.

Before getting that advanced why don't you just start with basic distances and directions.

Directions:
Is the United states north/south/east/west from Brazil?

Distance
The united states is X miles from Brazil.

These distances and directions should match the distances and directions which have been corroborated by hundreds of thousands of people via travel times, travel distances, navigation, shipping, cartography, surveying etc.


We have determined through hundreds of thousands of measurements and observations in regards to cartography, navigation, shipping times, travel times, etc.  that the distance between Santiago and Sydney is about 7,000 miles and The distance between LA and Sydney is about 7,500 miles.



As an example each one of these maps has a huge problem where the distances don't match observed and measured distances:
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Rowbotham_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Charles_K._Johnson_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Gleason%27s_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Voliva_map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Orlando_Ferguson_Map.jpg

None of these maps can possibly be correct because they all show the distance between LA and Sydney is one half of the distance between Santiago and Sydney which is blatantly incorrect.

Welcome Iamcpc, I was hoping you would participate in this thread.  I like your reasoning about observed distances, it is your discussions that sparked this idea in my mind several weeks ago.

I completely agree, none of those maps work.  The reason I'm going with this list of observations is that they are not disputed.  There are people in the FE community that dispute the distance from New York to Paris.  There are some that claim the southern flights don't exist.  They don't dispute these simple observations and even allow data from timeanddate.com.  So, if we can all agree on a set of observations that are not in dispute, we can then use these to guide us toward methods to lay out a map.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 25, 2018, 10:10:46 PM

Welcome Iamcpc, I was hoping you would participate in this thread.  I like your reasoning about observed distances, it is your discussions that sparked this idea in my mind several weeks ago.

I completely agree, none of those maps work.  The reason I'm going with this list of observations is that they are not disputed.  There are people in the FE community that dispute the distance from New York to Paris.  There are some that claim the southern flights don't exist.  They don't dispute these simple observations and even allow data from timeanddate.com.  So, if we can all agree on a set of observations that are not in dispute, we can then use these to guide us toward methods to lay out a map.

The problem is they are heavily disputed because of things like atmospheric refraction, limitations of the human eye, mirage effects etc.

It's much more difficult to dispute this:

A flight between Santiago and Sydney is about 14 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.


A flight between LA and Sydney is about 15 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.





https://www.icontainers.com/ship-container/sydney/


The amount of time it takes to ship something via sea from LA to Sydney is about 22 days
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.


https://www.movehub.com/cl/international-shipping/australia/
The amount of time it takes to ship something from via sea is about 22 days



Why are these travel and shipping times so vastly different than what is predicted in the flat earth maps? It's because they are horribly inaccurate. Until you can reconcile known distances to a flat earth map what we debate on in terms of the position of a perceived position of a light in the sky is a moot point.


This is one of the more accurate flat earth map I've found. It follow the infinite repeating plane flat earth model which is the only one that makes any sense to me.
http://earth3dmap.com/
During the winter solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn and during the summer solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 25, 2018, 11:01:16 PM

Welcome Iamcpc, I was hoping you would participate in this thread.  I like your reasoning about observed distances, it is your discussions that sparked this idea in my mind several weeks ago.

I completely agree, none of those maps work.  The reason I'm going with this list of observations is that they are not disputed.  There are people in the FE community that dispute the distance from New York to Paris.  There are some that claim the southern flights don't exist.  They don't dispute these simple observations and even allow data from timeanddate.com.  So, if we can all agree on a set of observations that are not in dispute, we can then use these to guide us toward methods to lay out a map.

The problem is they are heavily disputed because of things like atmospheric refraction, limitations of the human eye, mirage effects etc.

It's much more difficult to dispute this:

A flight between Santiago and Sydney is about 14 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.

A flight between LA and Sydney is about 15 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.

https://www.icontainers.com/ship-container/sydney/

The amount of time it takes to ship something via sea from LA to Sydney is about 22 days
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.

https://www.movehub.com/cl/international-shipping/australia/
The amount of time it takes to ship something from via sea is about 22 days

Why are these travel and shipping times so vastly different than what is predicted in the flat earth maps? It's because they are horribly inaccurate. Until you can reconcile known distances to a flat earth map what we debate on in terms of the position of a perceived position of a light in the sky is a moot point.

This is one of the more accurate flat earth map I've found. It follow the infinite repeating plane flat earth model which is the only one that makes any sense to me.
http://earth3dmap.com/
During the winter solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn and during the summer solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn.

Flight and shipping times certainly are damning for FE, however, we still have FE proponents that claim the times are padded or otherwise faked because it involves people.  People that can be in on the big lie.  The traversal of the sun across the sky doesn't involve people, it can't lie.

I addressed your map in this post, lets keep that discussion there:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10743.msg167027#msg167027


Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 26, 2018, 07:34:41 PM

Flight and shipping times certainly are damning for FE, however, we still have FE proponents that claim the times are padded or otherwise faked because it involves people.  People that can be in on the big lie.  The traversal of the sun across the sky doesn't involve people, it can't lie.


They are not damning for FE. They are damning for the FE maps presented in this thread. Again I fail to see the point of sun position on the map of the earth. If there was no sun we could still make a map of the earth.

I've never seen anyone claim that times are padded as I have to know what time the plane takes off to board the plane and when I land someone had to know what time the plane lands to pick me up from the airport.

The observation of the sun across the sky does involve people making an observation with our limited perceptive ability under very chaotic atmospheric conditions has been debated with no headway. Just because you observe a sun to be in a certain position at a certain time does not mean that it's really there.

Sun observations mean nothing when they get lost in a logic loop of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path. These are real measurable observable scientific/optical phenomenon that both flat earth and round earth people agree have a significant impact on observations made. In addition any claims to fake/fabricated evidence claims can also be made about sun observations.




I observed one arrow facing left while an observer under different atmospheric conditions could see an arrow facing a different direction, while being a different size or in a different position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G303o8pJzls

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 26, 2018, 07:56:06 PM
The observation of the sun across the sky does involve people making an observation with our limited perceptive ability under very chaotic atmospheric conditions has been debated with no headway. Just because you observe a sun to be in a certain position at a certain time does not mean that it's really there.

Sun observations mean nothing when they get lost in a logic loop of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path. These are real measurable observable scientific/optical phenomenon that both flat earth and round earth people agree have a significant impact on observations made. In addition any claims to fake/fabricated evidence claims can also be made about sun observations.

Fair point. However, I would argue that the sun, moon and stars have been successfully used for navigation purposes for 100's if not 1000's of years. So, in essence, the heavenly bodies are just as important to a map as are port-to-port distances.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 26, 2018, 08:33:40 PM

Flight and shipping times certainly are damning for FE, however, we still have FE proponents that claim the times are padded or otherwise faked because it involves people.  People that can be in on the big lie.  The traversal of the sun across the sky doesn't involve people, it can't lie.


They are not damning for FE. They are damning for the FE maps presented in this thread. Again I fail to see the point of sun position on the map of the earth. If there was no sun we could still make a map of the earth.

I've never seen anyone claim that times are padded as I have to know what time the plane takes off to board the plane and when I land someone had to know what time the plane lands to pick me up from the airport.

The observation of the sun across the sky does involve people making an observation with our limited perceptive ability under very chaotic atmospheric conditions has been debated with no headway. Just because you observe a sun to be in a certain position at a certain time does not mean that it's really there.

Sun observations mean nothing when they get lost in a logic loop of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path. These are real measurable observable scientific/optical phenomenon that both flat earth and round earth people agree have a significant impact on observations made. In addition any claims to fake/fabricated evidence claims can also be made about sun observations.

I observed one arrow facing left while an observer under different atmospheric conditions could see an arrow facing a different direction, while being a different size or in a different position.

I welcome claims of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path for the sun travel.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.  Regarding the video, I have seen no claims or evidence of large refractive objects on the sky.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

I have intentionally chosen sun paths that are apparently nearly perfectly straight.  This makes it exceedingly unlikely to claim any effect is curving light east or west.  If something appears straight but is, in reality, curved, the thing causing it to appear straight has to be very perfectly aligned.  As there are numerous simultaneous observers from different locations this refractive thing would have to be amazingly complicated.  Only the most desperate of straw grabbing will suggest this, and, claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

I like your flight and ship timings and distances.  This is a different take at it.  From what I have seen, the observations of the sun's path are well accepted.  Iamcpc, if you don't like this take at it, that's fine.  I think it has great merit to guide the layout of a FE map.  For example, observation #1 requires a straight equator, removing the AE map variants from consideration.  Observations #2 and #3 require the tropics to be straight, removing the common bi-polar map from consideration.  Both of these observations keep your
earth3dmap.com in the running. 
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 26, 2018, 10:32:37 PM
I welcome claims of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path for the sun travel.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.  Regarding the video, I have seen no claims or evidence of large refractive objects on the sky.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

When creating a map of the earth, perceived position of the  Sun has nothing to do with it. An experience cartographer/surveyor can work easily at night or even during a cloudy day.

Yet if you insist on the position of the sun over the map then that's already been done. Here is an infinite repeating plane model showing the position of the sun for anywhere on earth any day.


http://suncalc.net/#/51.508,-0.125,2/2018.09.26/17:28



On this map all of the following conditions hold true.
1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 26, 2018, 11:04:47 PM
On this map all of the following conditions hold true.

It's not straight, but arc'd, at least how I'm interpreting it:

(https://i.imgur.com/O4BjqEd.png)
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 05:22:44 AM
You need to demonstrate your premise.

Where are the world-wide observations that back up your assertions that the sun does all of these things exactly as you claim it to do?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 27, 2018, 06:15:23 AM
Kind of not helpful. I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps. This effort is to try and construct a working, meets observable reality, FE map.

More constructive would be:
A) How might you demonstrate the premise?
B) Lay out what about the premise you disagree with and why.

Take for example, does FET agree or disagree with "on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.”? If so, cool, 4 to go. If not, why not and where does the sun path on the equinox for FET?

And so on.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 27, 2018, 11:23:22 AM
I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps.
I'm not sure how you can say that, given that the concept behind the monopole model long predates the popularisation of RET. The fact is that all maps are maps of the Earth. I could similarly assert that all of your maps are maps of the Flat Earth, and it would be an equally genuine argument.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 12:46:40 PM
You need to demonstrate your premise.

Where are the world-wide observations that back up your assertions that the sun does all of these things exactly as you claim it to do?

That's the point of this thread.  I have tried to select observations that are already well accepted and easy to confirm without fancy or expensive equipment.

For example, in Ecuador, there is the Quitsato sundial, it's directly on the equator.  On the equinoxes the sun traces a straight path over this location.  This is easy to verify.  Many people have seen this and will attest to the correctness of this claim.  I don't expect anybody would disagree with this observation.  For this location on the equator.

More information on the Quitsato sundail:
http://www.quitsato.org/?lang=en

This details the construction of the sundial and placement of two indicators identifying due east and due west for confirmation on the equinox.  Document is in Spanish.
https://www.scribd.com/document/97475201/Documento-Posicionamiento-Reloj-Solar

So, given this example, do people agree that this can be generalized to all locations on the equator for observations 1 and 5?

This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 01:25:26 PM
I welcome claims of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path for the sun travel.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.  Regarding the video, I have seen no claims or evidence of large refractive objects on the sky.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

When creating a map of the earth, perceived position of the  Sun has nothing to do with it. An experience cartographer/surveyor can work easily at night or even during a cloudy day.

Yet if you insist on the position of the sun over the map then that's already been done. Here is an infinite repeating plane model showing the position of the sun for anywhere on earth any day.

http://suncalc.net/#/51.508,-0.125,2/2018.09.26/17:28

On this map all of the following conditions hold true.
1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Cool, thanks for the reference. I'll check it out to see if it supports the observations.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 01:45:50 PM
This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

What observation? Who made it? Where can we see records of this observation?

"We can all agree on these hypothetical observations" is not good enough.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 27, 2018, 03:40:04 PM

So, given this example, do people agree that this can be generalized to all locations on the equator for observations 1 and 5?

This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

I just went over why these observations could never be accepted. Perceptive limitations, optical anomalies, chaotic atmosphere, and this information can be faked way too easy.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 04:06:04 PM
This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

What observation? Who made it? Where can we see records of this observation?

"We can all agree on these hypothetical observations" is not good enough.

I'm looking for verification of my observations.  I am fairly certain they are correct, but not totally certain.  If you think an observation is wrong, please share.  If you think an observation is correct, say so.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 27, 2018, 05:13:58 PM
I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps.
I'm not sure how you can say that, given that the concept behind the monopole model long predates the popularisation of RET. The fact is that all maps are maps of the Earth. I could similarly assert that all of your maps are maps of the Flat Earth, and it would be an equally genuine argument.
Concept, yes, in reality, no.

(https://i.imgur.com/7vhoajb.jpg)
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 27, 2018, 05:33:37 PM
This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

What observation? Who made it? Where can we see records of this observation?

"We can all agree on these hypothetical observations" is not good enough.

What observation?
One observation that I've personally made is that (based on limited perceptive abilities of the human eye/brain, and chaotic atmospheric conditions, and unknown variables which affect optics), the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. I've never been to the north or south pole or through all of Asia though so it might be different there. I have made this observation throughout North America, parts of South America, and parts of Europe.

Who made it?
I did. As well as dozens of people of these forums. I believe you have made this observation as well.

Where can we see records of this observation?
You can observe this for yourself personally by walking outside.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 05:35:29 PM
I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps.
I'm not sure how you can say that, given that the concept behind the monopole model long predates the popularisation of RET. The fact is that all maps are maps of the Earth. I could similarly assert that all of your maps are maps of the Flat Earth, and it would be an equally genuine argument.
Concept, yes, in reality, no.


This is not on topic with this thread.  Please start a new thread for this discussion.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 07:22:18 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 08:06:41 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: inquisitive on September 27, 2018, 08:08:20 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 08:22:14 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 08:26:34 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

Tom, I'm requesting input, you are not providing input.  If you disagree with the observations lets hear why.  Let's hear what you think is untrue, I am really trying to gather true observations.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 08:44:50 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

Tom, I'm requesting input, you are not providing input.  If you disagree with the observations lets hear why.

What observations am I disagreeing with? You have posted hypothetical observations.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

Tom, I'm requesting input, you are not providing input.  If you disagree with the observations lets hear why.

What observations am I disagreeing with? You have posted hypothetical observations.

I don't know what observations you are disagreeing with.  I honestly can't tell is you are confused or just messing with me.

I'll make it clear:
Do you agree the on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator?

If not, please let me know if this isn't correct.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 09:11:06 PM
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
2018 June Solstice occurred Jun 21 at 10:07 am UTC
- https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html  (https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html)
- http://earthsky.org/earth/everything-you-need-to-know-june-solstice (http://earthsky.org/earth/everything-you-need-to-know-june-solstice)

The Tropic of Cancer is currently N23°26′ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropic_of_Cancer)

At 1007 UTC on June 21st, 2018, the sun was directly overhead N23° 26', E28° 42' (https://www.google.com/maps/place/23%C2%B026'00.0%22N+28%C2%B042'00.0%22E/@22.8487965,28.873351,6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d23.4333333!4d28.7)
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?month=6&day=21&year=2018&hour=10&min=07&sec=0&n=&ntxt=&earth=0 (https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?month=6&day=21&year=2018&hour=10&min=07&sec=0&n=&ntxt=&earth=0)

That's the only location where the sun would have been 90° overhead along the Tropic of Cancer. A few minutes to the east and west and the elevation angle is <90°.

Check: Aswan, Egypt (N24°05, E32°54" (https://www.google.com/maps/place/24%C2%B005'00.0%22N+32%C2%B054'00.0%22E/@24.0833382,32.8978113,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d24.0833333!4d32.9)) solar noon was at 11:50am local time; sun elevation 89.3°
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/egypt/aswan?month=6&year=2018 (https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/egypt/aswan?month=6&year=2018)
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 09:25:09 PM
Bobby, those are calculators, not documented observations.

I don't know what observations you are disagreeing with.  I honestly can't tell is you are confused or just messing with me.

I'll make it clear:
Do you agree the on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator?

If not, please let me know if this isn't correct.

I'll agree with whatever the data and observations tell us. If there are no such observations, then there is no reason to believe in that hypothesis.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 09:30:15 PM
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st, 2018, other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.
 
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 09:30:55 PM
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.

No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.

Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 09:33:57 PM
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 27, 2018, 09:38:58 PM
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.

No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.

Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?

Respectfully, timeanddate dot com produces accurate predictions that can be observed in the world around us.  Tom does not.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 09:40:39 PM
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

"Prove me wrong" is not a legitimate debate strategy and is instant disqualification. You need to prove your own self correct.

Respectfully, timeanddate dot com produces accurate predictions that can be observed in the world around us.  Tom does not.

Then you should be able to link us to documented observations that prove what the sun does on equinox or solstice.

Are you to say that there is a mountain of observations which were generated at great cost, with agents around the world, without even a mention of those efforts on the calculator websites or in any other resoruce, and then such observations and reports were immediately then thrown away, leaving the data source for these calculators a complete mystery?

No. That is completely stupid. There was no world-wide sun fact finding excursion.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 09:46:29 PM
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

I can attest that when I have referred to timeanddate.com it has always been correct.

Tom, remember, I have chosen observations that are easily verifiable and there is little or no contention about them.  If you think these observations are inaccurate, make it known.  So far, you have not raised any objections to the observations.  I don't know why you re being so obstructionist.  I sincerely doubt you have any objections to observations #1, #4, and #5.  Are you are just messing around and are not sincerely seeking truth?

I'm not looking for a mathematical type proof, like proving there are infinite primes.  I've looked at the proof for infinite primes, it's thick and, not studying math currently, I no longer understand the technical proof, but, without the proof, I conceptually understand why there are infinite primes.  People can have conversations about infinite primes without first going through the proof and agreeing it is correct and acceptable, or even understanding the proof.

I am looking for an honest conversation about these observations.  Tell us why you think they are incorrect os silently accept them as correct.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 27, 2018, 09:50:12 PM
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

"Prove me wrong" is not a legitimate debate strategy and is instant disqualification. You need to prove your own self correct.

Respectfully, timeanddate dot com produces accurate predictions that can be observed in the world around us.  Tom does not.

Then you should be able to link us to documented observations that prove what the sun does on equinox or solstice.

Are you to say that there is a mountain of observations which were generated at great cost, without even a mention of those efforts on the calculator websites or in any other resoruce, and then such observations and reports were immediately then thrown away, leaving the data source for these calculators a complete mystery?

No. That is completely stupid. There was no world-wide sun fact finding excursion.


The calculators don't need piles documentation, they make accurate predictions that anyone can observe. Have you any documentation that their predictions were ever wrong?

How accurate are the predictions of the FET models?  What do the FET model calculators predict?

In fact, lets compare the accuracy of predictions generated by FET models to mainstream astronomical models. That would be interesting.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 09:53:33 PM
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

I can attest that when I have referred to timeanddate.com it has always been correct.

Tom, remember, I have chosen observations that are easily verifiable and there is little or no contention about them.  If you think these observations are inaccurate, make it known.  So far, you have not raised any objections to the observations.  I don't know why you re being so obstructionist.  I sincerely doubt you have any objections to observations #1, #4, and #5.  Are you are just messing around and are not sincerely seeking truth?

I'm not looking for a mathematical type proof, like proving there are infinite primes.  I've looked at the proof for infinite primes, it's thick and, not studying math currently, I no longer understand the technical proof, but, without the proof, I conceptually understand why there are infinite primes.  People can have conversations about infinite primes without first going through the proof and agreeing it is correct and acceptable, or even understanding the proof.

I am looking for an honest conversation about these observations.  Tell us why you think they are incorrect os silently accept them as correct.

Look at our page on the NOAA Solar Calculator (https://wiki.tfes.org/NOAA_Solar_Calculator). These calculators are based on patterns and trends of previous occurrences, not a Round Earth model.

The values are completely independent, pattern-based, and the output of the calculator does not even fit into a Round Earth model. The videos at the bottom of that link show that the sun cannot be triangulated to a single point in the heliocentric system.

The time of sunrise and sunset is a pattern, and is different from another pattern for the direction the sun rises and sets. One pattern may be correct, while another pattern may be incorrect.

There was never any world-wide sun study. There is no vast collection of sun observations. These calculators are based on patterns and assumptions.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 09:54:19 PM
The calculators don't need piles documentation, they make accurate predictions that anyone can observe. Have you any documentation that their predictions were ever wrong?

"Prove me wrong" is not a valid debating strategy, and is an instant lose. You need to prove your own self correct.

There should be evidence that these calculators are correct.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Bobby, Dr Van Nostrand, other readers of this thread,

I am honestly seeking confirmation about the accuracy of these observations.  I have already identified and fixed my initial incorrect observations for #2 and #3.  I feel good about these but would love several more people to apply their criticism to ensure correctness.

1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 09:59:29 PM
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

"Prove me wrong" is not a legitimate debate strategy and is instant disqualification. You need to prove your own self correct.
But you have to have a reason for rejecting the proof offered.

Why is a calculator with a proven history of accuracy not acceptable?

Do you trust clocks?

Your rejection of TimeandDate as failing to satisfy your demand for "documentation" is without merit, unless you can explain how it has merit.

Let me ask you this: in whatever flat earth "model" you choose, does the sun follow a path of the Tropic of the Cancer for one full day cycle? Because it doesn't in the globe earth model. It reaches the Tropic of Cancer for a moment and then begins to traverse back south in latitude. Only one location at the latitude of the Tropic of Cancer experiences a solar noon of 90 degrees elevation.

Do you have reason to doubt that? Is it different for a flat earth? Does the sun not move gradually between the Tropics on a flat earth? Or does it transcribe a path at a single, unchanging latitude for one day before migrating toward the equator? Do you distrust the calculator and require someone to be at that Tropic subsolar point and someone at a point on the Tropic later or earlier in the day documenting that they are not experiencing a subpolar point before you can believe it?

If so, how does anyone "debate" that kind of epistemology? If you have some valid reason for discounting a calculator as documentation, then that's something worth debating. But you're not debating. You're just gainsaying for the sake of gainsaying without explaining why.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 10:09:39 PM
Bobby, Dr Van Nostrand, other readers of this thread,

I am honestly seeking confirmation about the accuracy of these observations.  I have already identified and fixed my initial incorrect observations for #2 and #3.  I feel good about these but would love several more people to apply their criticism to ensure correctness.

1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
As we've been discussing, #2 and #3 are not correct. There is only one location on the Tropics of Cancer/Capricorn for which the sun is directly overhead at solar noon.

What's the reason to break out #5 from #4?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: markjo on September 27, 2018, 10:11:42 PM
Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?
No Tom.  Web sites like Timeanddate.com wrote a number of algorithms to calculate the actions of the sun and moon based on the round earth model and then presented their calculators to the public so that people all over the world could compare those calculations with their own real world observations.

There are even open source sunrise/sunset calculators that are available so that you can validate the calculations yourself.
http://www.java2s.com/Open-Source/Android_Free_Code/App/time/edu_rosehulman_sunrisesunsetSunriseSunsetCalculator_java.htm
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 10:12:02 PM
But you have to have a reason for rejecting the proof offered.

Why is a calculator with a proven history of accuracy not acceptable?

Where is the proven history of accuracy in its elements?

Whenever we have asked in the last 10 years, there has been silence. That is reason enough to reject it.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 27, 2018, 10:12:46 PM
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.

No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.

Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?

Manhattanhenge is a good example with hundreds of thousands of observations, pictures, and videos.

https://www.space.com/40639-the-story-of-manhattanhenge.html

There is a system in place which can accurately determine the days of the year in which the sunset lines up with with the streets of Manhattan.

suncalc.net is able to accurately predict the day that this will happen.

Another situation with hundreds of thousands of observations,pictures, and videos is the summer solstice at Stonehenge.



Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 10:18:05 PM
Manhattanhenge is a good example with hundreds of thousands of observations, pictures, and videos.

https://www.space.com/40639-the-story-of-manhattanhenge.html

There is a system in place which can accurately determine the days of the year in which the sunset lines up with with the streets of Manhattan.

suncalc.net is able to accurately predict the day that this will happen.

Another situation with hundreds of thousands of observations,pictures, and videos is the summer solstice at Stonehenge.

What pictures? What videos? What does the data and observations show the sun to be doing exactly?

You need to construct your case, and show that whatever is or is not being seen occurs world-wide, not wave your hands in the air and scream "There are videos!!!"
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 10:22:22 PM
This happens twice a year.

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2znznk1.jpg)

Photographers crowd the beach in anticipation, not because they're guessing but because they've got the date and time from a predictive calculator...which has always been spot on and never failed to predict its occurrence.

However that calculator works (pattern, algorithm), it works. I've yet to experience -- or hear of anyone experiencing -- a discrepancy.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 10:27:09 PM
We know that the sun sets a little more northward or southward throughout the year in a loop. That is also present in the basic FET model.

Is there anything else?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 27, 2018, 10:27:39 PM
Bobby, Dr Van Nostrand, other readers of this thread,

I am honestly seeking confirmation about the accuracy of these observations.  I have already identified and fixed my initial incorrect observations for #2 and #3.  I feel good about these but would love several more people to apply their criticism to ensure correctness.

1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
As we've been discussing, #2 and #3 are not correct. There is only one location on the Tropics of Cancer/Capricorn for which the sun is directly overhead at solar noon.

What's the reason to break out #5 from #4?

Thanks, yes, I didn't quite phrase it correctly.  I also adjusted #1 similarly.  Additions in bold:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.

Initially when I was writing my thoughts on this I had several observations.  I removed the ones that didn't fit my desired criteria of easy to understand, simple to confirm, and well agreed upon by all parties.  #4 and #5 were separate in this list as I added them at different times.  I left them separate as #4 is a generalization of #5.  I want to be certain of the quality of these observations so I left them separate in case I'm not understanding #4 correctly and it's not accurate and have to be removed.  That would leave #5 as a separate item.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 10:28:36 PM
I ask again:


Let me ask you this: in whatever flat earth "model" you choose, does the sun follow a path of the Tropic of the Cancer for one full day cycle? Because it doesn't in the globe earth model. It reaches the Tropic of Cancer for a moment and then begins to traverse back south in latitude. Only one location at the latitude of the Tropic of Cancer experiences a solar noon of 90 degrees elevation.

Do you have reason to doubt that? Is it different for a flat earth? Does the sun not move gradually between the Tropics on a flat earth? Or does it transcribe a path at a single, unchanging latitude for one day before migrating toward the equator? Do you distrust the calculator and require someone to be at that Tropic subsolar point and someone at a point on the Tropic later or earlier in the day documenting that they are not experiencing a subpolar point before you can believe it?

You have an issue with how TimeandDate (or any such calculation) derives its output. Fine. But do you have reason to distrust the output or is it just its method that bothers you? If it's  just the latter, then what's the debate here? Is whether or not the whole of the Tropic of Cancer experiences a 90 degree overhead subsolar point a distinguishing feature of a flat earth vs a globe earth?

Trust me, if that's so, I will find a way to have that observed directly vice relying on TimeandDate. Somehow, I don't believe that will satisfy the debate because even on a flat earth it makes sense to me that solar noon only happens in one location on the Tropics during the solstice. So I don't understand what you're on about.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 27, 2018, 10:34:41 PM

What pictures? What videos? What does the data and observations show the sun to be doing exactly?

You need to construct your case, and show that whatever is or is not being seen occurs world-wide, not wave your hands in the air and scream "There are videos!!!"

These pictures:

https://www.google.com/search?q=manhattanhenge&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS755US755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM48yBntzdAhVQbK0KHYJ1DmwQ_AUIDigB&biw=2128&bih=1041

these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manhattanhenge (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manhattanhenge)


The data and observations show that the angle of the sunset lines up with the streets of manhattan twice a year on days that can be reliably predicted.



These pictures

https://www.google.com/search?q=stonehenge+summer+solstice&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS755US755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzg_HgntzdAhXomq0KHTeQBacQ_AUIDigB&biw=2128&bih=1041

and these videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stonehenge+summer+solstice (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stonehenge+summer+solstice)


The data and observations show that the angle of the sunset lines up the rocks of stonehenge on day that can be reliably predicted.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 27, 2018, 10:38:24 PM
This happens twice a year.

Photographers crowd the beach in anticipation, not because they're guessing but because they've got the date and time from a predictive calculator...which has always been spot on and never failed to predict its occurrence.

However that calculator works (pattern, algorithm), it works. I've yet to experience -- or hear of anyone experiencing -- a discrepancy.

Do you have any documented evidence and observations for that? Since your claims you should be able to prove what the sun is doing. If photographers crowd the beach then there should be lots of documented evidence.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 27, 2018, 10:43:04 PM

What pictures? What videos? What does the data and observations show the sun to be doing exactly?

You need to construct your case, and show that whatever is or is not being seen occurs world-wide, not wave your hands in the air and scream "There are videos!!!"

These pictures:

https://www.google.com/search?q=manhattanhenge&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS755US755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM48yBntzdAhVQbK0KHYJ1DmwQ_AUIDigB&biw=2128&bih=1041

these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manhattanhenge (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manhattanhenge)


The data and observations show that the angle of the sunset lines up with the streets of manhattan twice a year on days that can be reliably predicted.



These pictures

https://www.google.com/search?q=stonehenge+summer+solstice&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS755US755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzg_HgntzdAhXomq0KHTeQBacQ_AUIDigB&biw=2128&bih=1041

and these videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stonehenge+summer+solstice (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stonehenge+summer+solstice)


The data and observations show that the angle of the sunset lines up the rocks of stonehenge on day that can be reliably predicted.

Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 10:53:20 PM
This happens twice a year.

Photographers crowd the beach in anticipation, not because they're guessing but because they've got the date and time from a predictive calculator...which has always been spot on and never failed to predict its occurrence.

However that calculator works (pattern, algorithm), it works. I've yet to experience -- or hear of anyone experiencing -- a discrepancy.

Do you have any documented evidence and observations for that? Since your claims you should be able to prove what the sun is doing. If photographers crowd the beach then there should be lots of documented evidence.
Next occurrence, according to the predicted sunset bearing output of TimeandDate.com are the sunsets on May 1st and 2nd occurring at 7:30pm local. 

Whether permitting (and assuming I'm still interested in this site or haven't lost my permission to post), I'll document both the occurrence and the crowd.

Will I have to document that my documentation is authenticate and unaltered?
Do I need to provide evidence that my clock is calibrated or that the location is accurate?

Here's another neat occurrence that is reliable predictable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9JAv5Co5uY
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 27, 2018, 10:58:23 PM

What pictures? What videos? What does the data and observations show the sun to be doing exactly?

You need to construct your case, and show that whatever is or is not being seen occurs world-wide, not wave your hands in the air and scream "There are videos!!!"

These pictures:

https://www.google.com/search?q=manhattanhenge&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS755US755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM48yBntzdAhVQbK0KHYJ1DmwQ_AUIDigB&biw=2128&bih=1041

these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manhattanhenge (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manhattanhenge)


The data and observations show that the angle of the sunset lines up with the streets of manhattan twice a year on days that can be reliably predicted.



These pictures

https://www.google.com/search?q=stonehenge+summer+solstice&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS755US755&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzg_HgntzdAhXomq0KHTeQBacQ_AUIDigB&biw=2128&bih=1041

and these videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stonehenge+summer+solstice (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stonehenge+summer+solstice)


The data and observations show that the angle of the sunset lines up the rocks of stonehenge on day that can be reliably predicted.

Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?

I never claimed that observed sun events support any predicted shape of the earth.

We were talking about a flat earth map and agreed sun positions which are independent of the shape of the earth. I had presented a map of the infinite repeating plane flat earth model which corroborates known sun positions/observations and accurately predicts future sun observations (such as stonehenge, manhattanhenge). You asked for documentation so I provided it to you.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 27, 2018, 11:00:12 PM
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
That's not the point of this topic, and certainly not the point of critique of map parameters for which you require documentation.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 27, 2018, 11:01:15 PM
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?

In case you've forgotten, this thread is about constructing an FE map, not a debate as to whether various suncalcs are earth shape agnostic or not.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 01:59:56 AM
This happens twice a year.

Photographers crowd the beach in anticipation, not because they're guessing but because they've got the date and time from a predictive calculator...which has always been spot on and never failed to predict its occurrence.

However that calculator works (pattern, algorithm), it works. I've yet to experience -- or hear of anyone experiencing -- a discrepancy.

Do you have any documented evidence and observations for that? Since your claims you should be able to prove what the sun is doing. If photographers crowd the beach then there should be lots of documented evidence.
Next occurrence, according to the predicted sunset bearing output of TimeandDate.com are the sunsets on May 1st and 2nd occurring at 7:30pm local. 

Whether permitting (and assuming I'm still interested in this site or haven't lost my permission to post), I'll document both the occurrence and the crowd.

Will I have to document that my documentation is authenticate and unaltered?
Do I need to provide evidence that my clock is calibrated or that the location is accurate?

Here's another neat occurrence that is reliable predictable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9JAv5Co5uY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9JAv5Co5uY)

The patterns of the sun been known to repeat themselves. It is no surprise that ancient monuments are related to a certain day which signifies the start of the new season.

In this video, how do we know what direction the door is pointing in? How do we know that it is pointed exactly East?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: markjo on September 28, 2018, 02:21:32 AM
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 02:29:03 AM
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?

Any model that has the sun moving in North and South motions over the year.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 28, 2018, 02:31:06 AM

The patterns of the sun been known to repeat themselves. It is no surprise that ancient monuments are related to a certain day which signifies the start of the new season.

In this video, how do we know what direction the door is pointing in? How do we know that it is pointed exactly East?
Tom,

Do you understand the topic?

Does whatever flat earth model you subscribe to agree with this statement or not?

Quote
on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.

The issue is that on a globe earth, this is NOT true. When this was contradicted as being NOT true, you seemed to contest it. Are you saying it IS true for a flat earth?

The new requirement is this:
Quote
on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.

How about now? Is this true for your flat earth model? Because it IS true for a globe earth.

If we're in agreement that it's true for both, then what's the debate?

If we're not, then explain why not. The fixation on how TimeandDate derives it's output is a separate pet issue for you. If you want to argue that issue, make a new topic but don't derail this one with a red herring. Answer the questions above. The point of the topic is to articulate the requirements that a FE map ought to have.  You know, those that you can agree with?

What is it about the statement above that you disagree with that makes it not true for FE?

Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: markjo on September 28, 2018, 02:36:02 AM
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?

Any model that has the sun moving in North and South motions over the year.
Do you have an other model of the earth calculator that predicts when that event will occur in Manhattan?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 03:03:57 AM
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 04:42:42 AM
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.

I'm using simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, non-contentious observations.  If you don't agree with them, make your voice heard.  As you have been asked directly and have not raised any objections to the observations I will take it as agreement with the observations.

I an not asking you to provide a map that explains it.  I will be working on the map along with whoever else wants to participate.  All are welcome to join in.

Bobby, thank you for the honest participation.  I hope you reconsider and join back in.  In the meantime are there any other people that would like to add objections to the observations?  Pete, Thork, J-Man, Jrowe, Totallackey, others, are these observations accurate?  If not, I'd like to hear what is incorrect.

If you review this thread, I have already amended the observations.  I am open to real criticism.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 04:48:19 AM
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?

Any model that has the sun moving in North and South motions over the year.
Do you have an other model of the earth calculator that predicts when that event will occur in Manhattan?

For this thread, the important thing is not the model, FE, RE, DE, etc.  It's about what are the real world observations.

There is a massive sundial near Quito, Ecuador, on the equator, called Quitsato.  On this sundial, on the equinoxes, the shadow of the sun can be confirmed to pass straight east-to-west.  There are other points on the equator this happens.  Are people confident this is the case for all locations on the equator on the equinox?  I have no objections to accepting this.  However, I could be overlooking something.  If I am, please inform me.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: inquisitive on September 28, 2018, 07:41:52 AM
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.
What do you have to assume for a map that shows a flat earth?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: AATW on September 28, 2018, 08:12:53 AM
I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.
And yet when shown several ways of measuring horizon dip and testing the hypothesis that it always remains at eye level you refused to do so.
You actually dismissed all the results which showed it doesn't stay at eye level but refused to do your own tests.
You have instead assumed that Rowbotham's result is correct. Why is that?

It's fine to take the stance that you can't trust anything unless you test it for yourself. In real life no-one actually takes that stance but if you claim to then fine. But be consistent about it.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Curious Squirrel on September 28, 2018, 12:58:41 PM
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.
Did you wish to discuss the Almanac again?
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6083.msg114944#msg114944

Wherein a sailor explains how he uses said Almanac and that's it's information agrees with his personal observations/measurements over the course of decades of use
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6083.msg148428#msg148428

The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents. https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9178.msg143874#msg143874

I've offered before, and would be more than happy to offer again. I have friends or relatives across a number of different latitudes. Most would be willing and ready to assist in testing the accuracy of the predicted sunrise/set times on timeanddate. I'm certain most of us on here would be only too happy to assist as well. How many observations would you require to accept their times are accurate to within say 3 minutes in either direction?

Although honestly the best part of all this is your continuous claim they're based on patterns, followed by your rejection of allowing us to reference them for much of anything for some reason.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 01:26:17 PM
Curious Squirrel, AllAroundTheWorld, Inquisitive,
Good points, thanks.  Tom's inconstant complaints have been noted and dismissed.  He is only trying to derail this thread, let's not allow that to happen.

Now, could we please return the the topic.  Would you three care to comment on the list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

I have some thoughts on #1 and a further correlated observation to add, but I would like to verify it's accuracy before moving forward.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 01:56:37 PM
Some independent sources talking about the sun's path on the equinox.

"Everyone along Earth’s equator on the day of the equinox – and for a day or two before and after it – will experience that noonday sun more or less overhead."
http://earthsky.org/tonight/sun-over-earths-equator-at-equinox

"Imagine standing at the equator.  At point A you are positioned in the middle of the nighttime side of the globe; it is midnight at Point A.  6 hours later you will be standing at Point B where you will move from night to day; this is sunrise.  To see the sun you must look exactly back along one of the rays of light coming from the sun.  You must turn and look straight east to do this.  One the equinoxes, the sun will rise in the east (not just somewhere in the east but exactly due east).  This only happens on the spring and fall equinox.  The rest of the year the sun will rise south or north of east."
http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/fall07/nats101s31/lecture_notes/sunpaths.html

"In late March and late September (at the "equinoxes"), the sun's path follows the celestial equator. It then rises directly east and sets directly west."
https://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/ua/sunandseasons.html


These are theoretical discussions of what will happen in the future and for all time.  The pattern and understanding of the sun's path on the equator on the equinox well understood based on thousands of years of observation.  The pattern is completely consistent and predictable.

The polar regions are exceptional because there are the only place where ease and west don't apply the same.  If you are exactly on the north pole, by definition, every direction is due south.  Observation #4 would not apply.  I'm not sure how to correctly refer to the south pole when considering the AE map as the south pole can be considered to be a line of circumference.  That's clearly not what is meant by a pole.  Maybe just calling it a "polar region" is satisfactory.  I'm not certain exactly how large to consider this area (north or south).  Excluding the entire Arctic and Antarctic circles seems to be excessive, but probably fine for this map consideration.  There are other simple observations that can be added regarding these regions.


At this point I am completely satisfied that observations #1, #4 and #5 are accurate for all locations on earth outside the polar regions.  As #5 represents a subset of #4, I will drop it from the list and add a caveat regarding the polar regions.  The current list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: AATW on September 28, 2018, 02:32:03 PM
Now, could we please return the the topic.  Would you three care to comment on the list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

I have some thoughts on #1 and a further correlated observation to add, but I would like to verify it's accuracy before moving forward.
OK. Let's say all that is true. The question is (and apologies if this has been dealt with elsewhere in the thread) how do we use that information to make a map?
Especially without making any assumptions about the shape of the earth.
Let's say I'm at one point on the tropic of cancer, you are on another and we have synchronised watches. You record when the sun is directly overhead at the solstice, I do the same.
So now we know how long the sun takes to get from one place to the other but we don't know it's speed. Are we assuming it stays at a constant speed?
I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here but it's hard to do this without making some assumptions, the tricky part is agreeing on those assumptions.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 02:35:23 PM
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 28, 2018, 02:54:17 PM
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.



I would not take your claim at face value but if you started such a thread and linked to a mathematical model that gave accurate predictions of the world around us, we definitely would offer some deference to your claims. I come here looking for such info.


Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Curious Squirrel on September 28, 2018, 03:17:48 PM
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.
You've been handed evidence for the accuracy of timeanddate and similar sites multiple times, and ignore it every. Single. Time. Or go far beyond reasonable doubt in attempts to claim it's not evidence. It being based or not on math dependent on a round Earth is wholly irrelevant when discussing whether it's information is accurate. You can't even agree on what the requirements would be to accept it as accurate. But I know if I keep this up I will likely shift into statements more appropriate for AR than the upper fora. If you wish to discuss what your requirements are that haven't been fulfilled I would be more than happy to entertain them. But simply stating 'you must provide evidence' when evidence has already been provided is not useful to a discussion.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 28, 2018, 04:12:24 PM
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.

On this thread, no one made the claim  [insert statement here] shows the earth is [insert shape here]. The claim was that we have a general idea of when and where the sun will rise and set for different positions on the earth.

I generally thought this was common knowledge because of things like Stonehenge, Manhattanhenge, and many other situations where the sunset/sunrise aligns with something on pattern which can be mathematically predicted.

When discussing making a map we might, at some point, need to determine what a mile is. I will make the claim that one mile is 5280 feet and you will start saying things like:

"you have to provide photographic and video evidence that one mile is 5280 feet"
"How do we know these mile photographs are what they really claim"
"How do we know these mile videos are what they really claim"
"How does a mile being 5280 feet support the round earth model only"


Huh?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 04:31:44 PM
Squirrel, Nostrand, iamcpc, et all:

If I linked to a moon calculator on tfes.org, with no source provided as to how these predictions were created, the evidence they were created on, or how accurate they are, then it would be dismissed out of hand. Am I wrong about that?

If you are claiming something about the sun, you need to provide evidence for all claims. One accuracy in sunrise times does not equal accuracy for sunrise direction for all points on the equator. If the calculator is anything like the NOAA Solar Calculator, then there are many different pattern-based algorithms involved.

Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 04:34:54 PM
Now, could we please return the the topic.  Would you three care to comment on the list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

I have some thoughts on #1 and a further correlated observation to add, but I would like to verify it's accuracy before moving forward.
OK. Let's say all that is true. The question is (and apologies if this has been dealt with elsewhere in the thread) how do we use that information to make a map?
Especially without making any assumptions about the shape of the earth.
Let's say I'm at one point on the tropic of cancer, you are on another and we have synchronised watches. You record when the sun is directly overhead at the solstice, I do the same.
So now we know how long the sun takes to get from one place to the other but we don't know it's speed. Are we assuming it stays at a constant speed?
I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here but it's hard to do this without making some assumptions, the tricky part is agreeing on those assumptions.

Agreed, these observations say nothing about the constancy of the speed of the sun.  I don't think that particular thing will be much of an issue.  I have an idea of how we can start a map using these observations, but it's not fully expanded.  I have been cautious as I have considered this because I don't want to go down a path based on an observation, then find it's incorrect so I have to revise drastically.  Or worse, fall prey to a bias and try to shoehorn an observation to fit the map.

I have two more observations to add.  I will use the same criteria as previously: simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, non-contentious observations.

5. For all points at northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.
6. For all points at southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.

Again, I'm not interested in belabored "prove this with documentation".  These are non-contentious observations seen by billions of people.  Simply point out if I am incorrect, or if this is worded poorly.

Here's the updated list:

1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. On the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. On the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.
5. For all points in northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.  In the north polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
6. For all points in southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.  In the south polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 28, 2018, 04:35:27 PM
Squirrel, Nostrand, iampc, et all:

If I linked to a moon calculator on tfes.org, with no source provided as to how these predictions were created, how they were created, or how accurate they are, then it would be dismissed out of hand. Am I wrong about that?

If you are claiming something about the sun, you need to provide evidence for all claims.

Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?


If you made a claim that a mile was 5280 feet, with no source provided as to how this prediction was created, or how accurate it is. I need a link for the documents showing the world-wide mile project showing that everywhere on earth a mile is 5280 feet. What is so flipping difficult about that?

You have used the Pythagorean theorem in several of your post.

A claim that A²+B² = C². I'm going to need a source provided. An explanation as to how this prediction was created. I need a link of documents showing the world wide triangle project showing that for A²+B² = C² for all triangles with sides less than 6 inches for all over the world. What is so flipping difficult about that?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Curious Squirrel on September 28, 2018, 06:56:47 PM
Squirrel, Nostrand, iamcpc, et all:

If I linked to a moon calculator on tfes.org, with no source provided as to how these predictions were created, the evidence they were created on, or how accurate they are, then it would be dismissed out of hand. Am I wrong about that?

If you are claiming something about the sun, you need to provide evidence for all claims. One accuracy in sunrise times does not equal accuracy for sunrise direction for all points on the equator. If the calculator is anything like the NOAA Solar Calculator, then there are many different pattern-based algorithms involved.

Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
We've linked you all three of the above over the course of the last year though Tom. Yet you continue to demand that only a 'world-wide sun observation project' would fulfill your criteria? I think it's time I finally filed you personally into the 'troll' bin. It's been a good run. But your constant refrain is for more more more, while never giving any sort of reasonable request on what 'more' might be.

Good luck with this for everyone else however. I shall continue to lurk, as these conversations have been more interesting than not.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: markjo on September 28, 2018, 08:07:39 PM
Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
Tom, those sun and moon calculators are not based on observations.  They are based on a mathematical models of the earth/moon/sun system and are validated against real world observations made by anyone who uses them to find out where and when the sun or moon will rise or set. 

Instead of demanding existing documentation (which, for all you know, could have been faked), why don't you organize your fellow FE'ers to test the predictions of these calculators yourselves.  There are even open source calculators that you can download to verify the maths.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 28, 2018, 08:39:38 PM
Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
Tom, those sun and moon calculators are not based on observations.  They are based on a mathematical models of the earth/moon/sun system and are validated against real world observations made by anyone who uses them to find out where and when the sun or moon will rise or set. 

Instead of demanding existing documentation (which, for all you know, could have been faked), why don't you organize your fellow FE'ers to test the predictions of these calculators yourselves.  There are even open source calculators that you can download to verify the maths.

You have to dig deep, but markjo is correct. They are constantly updated using real world observations as well as patterns and computational aid.

NOAA’s calculators (and most calcs/almanacs) currently utilize ephemerides derived by JPL’s ‘Horizon’ system. The main being DE430. Part of the ephemerides derived solar object positioning is through observation:

"The observational data in the fits has been an evolving set, including: ranges (distances) to planets measured by radio signals from spacecraft,[7] direct radar-ranging of planets, two-dimensional position fixes (on the plane of the sky) by VLBI of spacecraft, transit and CCD telescopic observations of planets and small bodies, and laser-ranging of retroreflectors on the Moon, among others. DE102, for instance, was fit to 48,479 observations.”

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory_Development_Ephemeris.html

It’s pretty much what astronomers do, among other things: They use calcs/almanacs to find out when and where to point their device to observe/study the celestial object(s) of interest. Observed variances from the calcs/almanacs are recorded into databases. Then when a new DE ephemeride is being developed, observations are “fitted” with the existing data in order to enhance accuracy.

There’s a bunch of documentation out there, just not super easy to find. I can post more, but we’re veering once again away from the intent of the OP.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 09:32:20 PM
Quote
DE102, for instance, was fit to 48,479 observations

Observations of what and from where?

Also, you ae wrong, the NOAA Solar Calculator is not based on DE102.

"The calculations in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset and Solar Position Calculators are based on equations from Astronomical Algorithms, by Jean Meeus."
—NOAA Solar Calculator Website (https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/calcdetails.html)

Squirrel, Nostrand, iamcpc, et all:

If I linked to a moon calculator on tfes.org, with no source provided as to how these predictions were created, the evidence they were created on, or how accurate they are, then it would be dismissed out of hand. Am I wrong about that?

If you are claiming something about the sun, you need to provide evidence for all claims. One accuracy in sunrise times does not equal accuracy for sunrise direction for all points on the equator. If the calculator is anything like the NOAA Solar Calculator, then there are many different pattern-based algorithms involved.

Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
We've linked you all three of the above over the course of the last year though Tom. Yet you continue to demand that only a 'world-wide sun observation project' would fulfill your criteria? I think it's time I finally filed you personally into the 'troll' bin. It's been a good run. But your constant refrain is for more more more, while never giving any sort of reasonable request on what 'more' might be.

Good luck with this for everyone else however. I shall continue to lurk, as these conversations have been more interesting than not.

Provide the links then, if you have verified it. What reason is there to assume that the sun has been studied from all points along the equator at equinox?

Post the evidence.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: inquisitive on September 28, 2018, 09:44:30 PM
Quote
DE102, for instance, was fit to 48,479 observations

Observations of what and from where?

Also, you ae wrong, the NOAA Solar Calculator is not based on DE102.

"The calculations in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset and Solar Position Calculators are based on equations from Astronomical Algorithms, by Jean Meeus."
—NOAA Solar Calculator Website (https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/calcdetails.html)

Squirrel, Nostrand, iamcpc, et all:

If I linked to a moon calculator on tfes.org, with no source provided as to how these predictions were created, the evidence they were created on, or how accurate they are, then it would be dismissed out of hand. Am I wrong about that?

If you are claiming something about the sun, you need to provide evidence for all claims. One accuracy in sunrise times does not equal accuracy for sunrise direction for all points on the equator. If the calculator is anything like the NOAA Solar Calculator, then there are many different pattern-based algorithms involved.

Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
We've linked you all three of the above over the course of the last year though Tom. Yet you continue to demand that only a 'world-wide sun observation project' would fulfill your criteria? I think it's time I finally filed you personally into the 'troll' bin. It's been a good run. But your constant refrain is for more more more, while never giving any sort of reasonable request on what 'more' might be.

Good luck with this for everyone else however. I shall continue to lurk, as these conversations have been more interesting than not.

Provide the links then, if you have verified it. What reason is there to assume that the sun has been studied from all points along the equator at equinox?

Post the evidence.
Please explain what you mean by all points, how many?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 28, 2018, 09:47:45 PM
1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. On the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. On the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.
5. For all points in northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.  In the north polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
6. For all points in southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.  In the south polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.

These observations will never be accepted. A perfect example is observation 1. To agree to that someone like Tom would require a worldwide equator study with thousands of pictures taken every mile, data logs, videos etc all along the equator.

Even if such a study existed he could easily take a look at one picture and make a claim such as he has already done in this thread that there is no proof that the sun is rising in the direction claimed in the observation.

Even if there is a compass in the picture someone would easily claim that there is no documentation that the compass is accurate.

Even if it was agreed that the compass was accurate then we could easily question the location along the equator that the observation/picture/measurement was taken.

Even if there is a compass in the picture and a GPS system in the picture someone would easily claim that there is no documentation that the GPS system is accurate.

Even if there is a compass and we agree the compass is accurate and a GPS system and we agree the GPS system is accurate there is no documentation that the observation/picture/measurement was taken on the day claimed.

Even if there is a date/time stamp on the picture/measurement/observation those can easily be altered.

Even if we all agree on the compass, the GPS, and the time stamp associated with the observation/picture/measurement are accurate how do we know that the observation/picture/measurement itself was not fake or an error.


Even if we all agree on the compass/gps/time/accuracy of the measurement how do we know the location is along the equator?
Even if we all agree on the compass/gps/time/accuracy of the measurement how do we know the day is the equinox?

This can go on ad infinitum



6 months later we have not even started talking about optical effects.
6 months later we have not even started talking about atmospheric refraction.
6 months later we have not even started talking about the limited perceptive abilities of the human optical/neurological systems.
6 months later we have not even started talking about optical refraction effects from the dome.
6 months later we have not even started talking about optical refraction effects from firmament.

All of this for one picture of a sunrise/sunset along the equator during the equinox.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 10:11:36 PM
1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. On the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. On the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.
5. For all points in northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.  In the north polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
6. For all points in southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.  In the south polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.

These observations will never be accepted. A perfect example is observation 1. To agree to that someone like Tom would require a worldwide equator study with thousands of pictures taken every mile, data logs, videos etc all along the equator.

Even if such a study existed he could easily take a look at one picture and make a claim such as he has already done in this thread that there is no proof that the sun is rising in the direction claimed in the observation.

Even if there is a compass in the picture someone would easily claim that there is no documentation that the compass is accurate.

Even if it was agreed that the compass was accurate then we could easily question the location along the equator that the observation/picture/measurement was taken.

Even if there is a compass in the picture and a GPS system in the picture someone would easily claim that there is no documentation that the GPS system is accurate.

Even if there is a compass and we agree the compass is accurate and a GPS system and we agree the GPS system is accurate there is no documentation that the observation/picture/measurement was taken on the day claimed.

Even if there is a date/time stamp on the picture/measurement/observation those can easily be altered.

Even if we all agree on the compass, the GPS, and the time stamp associated with the observation/picture/measurement are accurate how do we know that the observation/picture/measurement itself was not fake or an error.


Even if we all agree on the compass/gps/time/accuracy of the measurement how do we know the location is along the equator?
Even if we all agree on the compass/gps/time/accuracy of the measurement how do we know the day is the equinox?

This can go on ad infinitum



6 months later we have not even started talking about optical effects.
6 months later we have not even started talking about atmospheric refraction.
6 months later we have not even started talking about the limited perceptive abilities of the human optical/neurological systems.
6 months later we have not even started talking about optical refraction effects from the dome.
6 months later we have not even started talking about optical refraction effects from firmament.

All of this for one picture of a sunrise/sunset along the equator during the equinox.

You are totally correct.  Tom won't accept these.  That doesn't matter.  Regular people do.  Tom has been invited to participate, he has instead chosen to derail.  I have already counted him in the "approve" column for my observations as he has offered no objections.  I invite anyone to start a separate thread dedicated to discussing level of documentation required for all claims FE, RE, etc.  I would love to compare and contrast the levels required for EnaG book compared to what is often demanded in this and other threads.

I will continue this thread ignoring off-topic posts, I request everyone else do the same.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: iamcpc
These observations will never be accepted. A perfect example is observation 1. To agree to that someone like Tom would require a worldwide equator study with thousands of pictures taken every mile, data logs, videos etc all along the equator.

You guys have yet to provide one documented observation on the equator. What are you talking about?

We operate on evidence here. No evidence? Then there is nothing to discuss!

You are totally correct.  Tom won't accept these.  That doesn't matter.  Regular people do.  Tom has been invited to participate, he has instead chosen to derail.  I have already counted him in the "approve" column for my observations as he has offered no objections.  I invite anyone to start a separate thread dedicated to discussing level of documentation required for all claims FE, RE, etc.  I would love to compare and contrast the levels required for EnaG book compared to what is often demanded in this and other threads.

I will continue this thread ignoring off-topic posts, I request everyone else do the same.

It's not a matter of me asserting that the observations are not good enough. It's a matter of there being no evidence at all for the phenomenon.

Any evidence at all will help. So far none has been presented for what is seen on the equator.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on September 28, 2018, 10:24:46 PM
I have a set of claims I wish to share.  These are not based on observations, they are based on predictions so fall into a different category.  However, like the observations, they are simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, and non-contentious.

I would like to claim these are true for all days of the year:
a. Before sunset in Aranuka island in Kiribati the sun has risen in Ganggo Hilia, Indonesia.
b. Before sunset in Ganggo Hilia, Indonesia the sun has risen in Nanyuki, Kenya.
c. Before sunset in Nanyuki, Kenya the sun has risen in Macapá, Brazil.
d. Before sunset in Macapá, Brazil the sun has risen in Quitsato Monument, Ecuador.
e. Before sunset in Quitsato Monument, Ecuador, the sun has risen in Aranuka island in Kiribati.

Note that these locations are all very close to the equator and are populated.  They are meant to be spaced close enough that the visible sun times overlap.  I have not yet done the work to confirm that the visible sun times do, indeed, overlap.  I will work on that later, or, if someone would be interested, help to provide that theoretical verification.  I also included a generalized claim of "all days of the year".  I think this is true, but for the FE map the important days are the equinoxes.

I will be working to create a list of locations on both tropics, and a few other latitudes.  Not sure which ones, +/-45 degrees maybe (yay, Minneapolis), +/-75 degrees maybe, antarctic/arctic circles maybe.  These may depend on the availability of locations at select latitudes.  The southern ones may be more sparse.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 28, 2018, 10:56:22 PM

It's not a matter of me asserting that the observations are not good enough. It's a matter of there being no evidence at all for the phenomenon.

Any evidence at all will help. So far none has been presented for what is seen on the equator.








We have shown evidence which you then dismissed. This is an exercise in futility because a website can show a pole casting no shadow on the equator during the equinox and you can EASILY claim that there is no proof that this picture was taken during the equinox or that this picture was taken from the equator.

In this video, how do we know what direction the door is pointing in? How do we know that it is pointed exactly East?

How do we know the location of the images?
How do we know the time of the images?
How do we know the images have not been photo shopped?
ad infinitum
ad infinitum
ad infinitum



They sell travel packages for the equinox because things in cities on the equator.
https://www.indonesia.travel/us/en/event-festivals/watch-the-spring-equinox-in-pontianak-rare-moments-without-shadow

This has been documented in these links
http://www.en.netralnews.com/news/currentnews/read/19305/indonesia.will.experience.day.without.shadow.on.march.21


https://steemit.com/equator/@lone.ly12/the-rare-phenomenon-it-s-the-territory-of-indonesia-s-day-without-shadows-c9cf51a02140c



Here's another website from another city on the equator
https://bobs-spaces.net/2018/03/18/2018-march-equinox/



Here's another link about people on the tropics and the sun position directly overhead
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/on-the-solstice-people-in-the-tropics-cast-no-shadow-128133250/


here's another link about the sun being directly overhead
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2017/04/lahaina-noon-when-shadows-disappear.html




people gather around outside to measure that the sun is overhead. It's a known predictable phenomenon.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 11:08:08 PM
Shadow disappear when the sun is overhead. No disagreement here.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 28, 2018, 11:29:23 PM
Shadow disappears when the sun is overhead. No disagreement here.

What is your evidence for this?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 28, 2018, 11:31:37 PM
Shadow disappears when the sun is overhead. No disagreement here.

According to these articles and observations that the phenomenon that a vertical pole cast no shadow (because the sun is "overhead") only occurs between the tropic of cancer and tropic of Capricorn. As someone who lives in North America I can honestly say I've never seen the phenomenon in North America nor have i know anyone who has seen the phenomenon in North America.

There are travel packages selling the ability to experience this phenomenon and they don't travel to New York.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 11:33:42 PM
Shadow disappears when the sun is overhead. No disagreement here.

According to these articles and observations that the phenomenon that a vertical pole cast no shadow (because the sun is "overhead") only occurs between the tropic of cancer and tropic of Capricorn. As someone who lives in North America I can honestly say I've never seen the phenomenon in North America nor have i know anyone who has seen the phenomenon in North America.

There are travel packages selling the ability to experience this phenomenon and they don't travel to New York.

That sounds like evidence that the sun travels between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Tropic of Cancer.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 28, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
That sounds like evidence that the sun travels between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Tropic of Cancer.

It also sounds like these events take place at days and times and locations which are predictable which is the whole set of predictions/observations that had been widely accepted as understood by people of all earth shape views so why do you feel the need to nit pick them?
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 28, 2018, 11:51:48 PM
That sounds like evidence that the sun travels between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Tropic of Cancer.

It also sounds like these events take place at days and times and locations which are predictable which is the whole set of predictions/observations that had been widely accepted as understood by people of all earth shape views so why do you feel the need to nit pick them?

I feel that there is enough evidence that the sun travels between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn, and that the sun moves in repeating patterns that may be predictable with trending to the locations of American and European astronomers.

The problem is that from that information it is a jump to declare that, therefore, on a certain day, the sun rises from exactly eastwards from a location on the equator in the middle of the pacific ocean.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 29, 2018, 12:07:23 AM
Quote
DE102, for instance, was fit to 48,479 observations

Observations of what and from where?

Also, you ae wrong, the NOAA Solar Calculator is not based on DE102.

"The calculations in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset and Solar Position Calculators are based on equations from Astronomical Algorithms, by Jean Meeus."
—NOAA Solar Calculator Website (https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/calcdetails.html)

Actually, you are, in part, wrong, more misinformed than anything else. And yes, DE102 was an example of the magnitude of 'observation' that goes into the development of a DE - DE430 is what is used today.

What values feed the Meeus algorithims? Well, as referenced in his book you cited, he pulls from many values/data sources, of which include the ‘Astronomical Almanac’ and its supplements.

http://edukacja.3bird.pl/download/fizyka/astronomia-jean-meeus-astronomical-algorithms.pdf

Within which, as late as 2015, the Astronomical Almanac has continued to assimilate JPL’s DE ephemerides:

"2015   Jet Propulsion Laboratory's DE430/LE430 planetary ephemerides was adopted. The IAU 2012 resolution on the re-definition of the astronomical unit of length was implemented. Predicting magnitude and surface brightness of planets was updated to account for the geometry of oblate planets.”

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/asa_history.php

If you're looking for worldwide observations, they are part of what comes out of all these tools.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 29, 2018, 12:37:21 AM
Quote
DE102, for instance, was fit to 48,479 observations

Observations of what and from where?

Also, you ae wrong, the NOAA Solar Calculator is not based on DE102.

"The calculations in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset and Solar Position Calculators are based on equations from Astronomical Algorithms, by Jean Meeus."
—NOAA Solar Calculator Website (https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/calcdetails.html)

Actually, you are, in part, wrong, more misinformed than anything else. And yes, DE102 was an example of the magnitude of 'observation' that goes into the development of a DE - DE430 is what is used today.

What values feed the Meeus algorithims? Well, as referenced in his book you cited, he pulls from many values/data sources, of which include the ‘Astronomical Almanac’ and its supplements.

http://edukacja.3bird.pl/download/fizyka/astronomia-jean-meeus-astronomical-algorithms.pdf

Within which, as late as 2015, the Astronomical Almanac has continued to assimilate JPL’s DE ephemerides:

"2015   Jet Propulsion Laboratory's DE430/LE430 planetary ephemerides was adopted. The IAU 2012 resolution on the re-definition of the astronomical unit of length was implemented. Predicting magnitude and surface brightness of planets was updated to account for the geometry of oblate planets.”

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/asa_history.php

If you're looking for worldwide observations, they are part of what comes out of all these tools.

If he pulled from many sources, but you do not know which ones from where, then you cannot say that the sun algorithms are based on the JPL's proprietary ephemerides tools.

Furthermore, there does not seem to be a version of Astronomical Algorithms published in the last few years when the JPL tool was adopted. The copyright on the Astronomical Algorithms book you linked is from 1991.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 29, 2018, 01:08:26 AM
Furthermore, there does not seem to be a version of Astronomical Algorithms published in the last few years when the JPL tool was adopted. The copyright on the Astronomical Algorithms book you linked is from 1991.

I can't believe I really have to spell this out, but they use the algorithms with current data.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 29, 2018, 01:10:41 AM
Furthermore, there does not seem to be a version of Astronomical Algorithms published in the last few years when the JPL tool was adopted. The copyright on the Astronomical Algorithms book you linked is from 1991.

I can't believe I really have to spell this out, but they use the algorithms with current data.

Do they? The sun has been doing the same thing for eons. What makes you think that the NOAA is using the data from the JPL tool rather than any other ephemeris source?

You are clearly not knowledgeable on where this data comes from, how it was generated, and are just making things up.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: stack on September 29, 2018, 02:41:32 AM
"The Astronomical Almanac is a joint publication of the U.S. Nautical Almanac Office, United States Naval Observatory (USNO), in the United States and Her Majesty's Nautical Almanac Office (HMNAO), United Kingdom Hydrographic Office (UKHO), in the United Kingdom. The printed version contains precise ephemerides of the Sun, Moon, planets, and satellites, data for eclipses and other astronomical phenomena for a given year, and serves as a world-wide standard for such information.”

https://bookstore.gpo.gov/products/astronomical-almanac-year-2019

NOAA is one of 7 uniformed services in the US governement.

As well, from 'Fundamentals of Astrodynamics and Applications'

(https://i.imgur.com/hO1BT1U.jpg)

https://books.google.com/books/about/Fundamentals_of_Astrodynamics_and_Applic.html?id=PJLlWzMBKjkC

Lastly, Stellarium allows you to use JPL’s DE430 instead of it’s default VSOP87.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on September 29, 2018, 06:51:18 AM

The sun has been doing the same thing for eons.
I don't see any evidence supporting this claim. Please link the studies, observations, photographs and videos that support this claim.

You are clearly not knowledgeable on where this data comes from, how it was generated, and are just making things up.

I don't see any evidence supporting these claims. Please link the studies, observations, photographs and videos that support this claim.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: AATW on September 29, 2018, 09:33:47 AM
No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.
Where is your evidence for the horizon staying at eye level?
The best I've seen you come up with so far are some "experiments" from Rowbotham which is him just saying "this is what I saw".
A quote on the Wiki which says that the horizon stayed PRACTICALLY at eye level at an altitude of 2 miles (I hope you can see the slight weakness in that argument, I've put the word in capitals if not)
And a shaky video from drone in which, amusingly, you actually can see the horizon drop as the drone ascends.
Meanwhile Bobby has done controlled experiments to demonstrate horizon dip and shown the proof.
You have declined to repeat these experiments of conduct your own tests.
I realise this is all a bit off topic but you brought up the subject of providing evidence for all claims when you demonstrably do not do so.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Bobby Shafto on September 29, 2018, 06:10:29 PM
You are clearly not knowledgeable on where this data comes from, how it was generated, and are just making things up.

They could be getting the data from gnomes for all I care. I've never caught these calculators not matching what is observed. Has anyone?

Approaching moonset just a little while ago. (http://oi67.tinypic.com/jq6ic7.jpg) If anything is in error here, it's my estimation of azimuthal bearing lines.  re

(Graphic has mooncalc and timeanddate swapped, but that's beside the point.)
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Mysfit on September 29, 2018, 09:34:58 PM
I am interested in a working flat earth map.
A zetetic approach to one would require observation of each part of the map. Each part should appear fairly flat and distances from one place to another can be measured easily enough.
The main problem with the zetetic approach is the sea, how do you observe each chunk of sea?
It is, effectively, incalculable without pictures from very high up.
Pictures might not line up with zetetic reasoning, though. I am at an impasse.

Tom, how does a zetetic measure what cannot be seen?
I consider you to be the closest expert, but would love to be redirected as necessary.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on October 01, 2018, 04:16:52 PM
Claim: On the equinoxes everywhere on the world experiences nearly 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night.  Except possibly the polar regions.

Proof:
https://xkcd.com/2050

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on October 01, 2018, 04:18:27 PM
Claim: On the equinoxes everywhere on the world experiences nearly 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night.  Except possibly the polar regions.

Proof:
https://xkcd.com/2050

I'm really struggling to see how this thread is about making a map. It seems to me it seems to be more about sun observations.


You are clearly not knowledgeable on where this data comes from, how it was generated, and are just making things up.

They could be getting the data from gnomes for all I care. I've never caught these calculators not matching what is observed. Has anyone?

Approaching moonset just a little while ago. (http://oi67.tinypic.com/jq6ic7.jpg) If anything is in error here, it's my estimation of azimuthal bearing lines.  re

(Graphic has mooncalc and timeanddate swapped, but that's beside the point.)

This is something that I just don't get. There are some things such as sun position which people can easily corroborate just by going outside. It's so easy in fact that hundreds of thousands of people have done this. Thousands and thousands of students people along the tropics go out during the solstice. Manhattenhenge and Stonehenge are things that have been known and corroborated by millions of people over the years. I'm shocked that these claims can't be made without the demand for a ridiculous amount of proof. Even then when you provide evidence it gets nit picked into oblivion.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on October 01, 2018, 04:26:53 PM
Claim: On the equinoxes everywhere on the world experiences nearly 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night.  Except possibly the polar regions.

Proof:
https://xkcd.com/2050

I'm really struggling to see how this thread is about making a map. It seems to me it seems to be more about sun observations.

You are correct.  At this point I am collecting information to use when laying out the map.  The map must match observations or it is not correct.  Unfortunately, this thread has been hijacked.  I'm writing a new thread to restart the discussion, trying to frame it is a way that won't get hijacked.  Unless, of course, people's aim is to hijack and not discuss or learn, then anything can be hijacked and it will be up to the will of the participants (or moderators) to resist the hijacking.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on October 01, 2018, 05:27:38 PM
You are correct.  At this point I am collecting information to use when laying out the map.  The map must match observations or it is not correct.  Unfortunately, this thread has been hijacked.  I'm writing a new thread to restart the discussion, trying to frame it is a way that won't get hijacked.  Unless, of course, people's aim is to hijack and not discuss or learn, then anything can be hijacked and it will be up to the will of the participants (or moderators) to resist the hijacking.


The problem, as you have already seen, is that any sort of sun "observations" can be picked apart ad infinitum VERY easily by anyone. You are making such large claims about such massive sections of earth (such as the entire equator) which are virtually impossible to back up with the volume of data required.

Something that is much less likely to get stuck in the ad infinitum loop is an observation like "Nebraska is North of Kansas" or "Oklahoma City is about a 3 hour drive from Dallas". You are not making broad blanket claims about observations along the entire equator which is thousands and thousand of miles in all earth models.

You are instead making a claim of of a distance of a few hundred miles which already has hundreds and hundreds of photographs from the google street view car.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on October 01, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
You are correct.  At this point I am collecting information to use when laying out the map.  The map must match observations or it is not correct.  Unfortunately, this thread has been hijacked.  I'm writing a new thread to restart the discussion, trying to frame it is a way that won't get hijacked.  Unless, of course, people's aim is to hijack and not discuss or learn, then anything can be hijacked and it will be up to the will of the participants (or moderators) to resist the hijacking.


The problem, as you have already seen, is that any sort of sun "observations" can be picked apart ad infinitum VERY easily by anyone. You are making such large claims about such massive sections of earth (such as the entire equator) which are virtually impossible to back up with the volume of data required.

Something that is much less likely to get stuck in the ad infinitum loop is an observation like "Nebraska is North of Kansas" or "Oklahoma City is about a 3 hour drive from Dallas". You are not making broad blanket claims about observations along the entire equator which is thousands and thousand of miles in all earth models.

You are instead making a claim of of a distance of a few hundred miles which already has hundreds and hundreds of photographs from the google street view car.

True.  There comes a time when rational people must acknowledge truth without pedantically arguing everything.  Those that observe the conversation will draw their conclusions about the rationality of the "must provide documentation" claims.

Me: I am not a cyborg.
Pedant: Prove it.  You made the claim, you have the borden of proof.

These types of conversations are not beneficial.  The pedant here is not interested in an honest conversation, observers will dismiss and ignore the pedant.

This forum is neither a court of law nor a debate competition where people win or lose points based on adhering to debate rules.  I'm interested in seeking truth, not winning points in a debate.  So, when something is well documented and apparently the truth, I am interested in conversations about if the claim is truthful, not "show documentation" conversations.

Again, observers can judge for themselves the truth about the claims and the intentions of the pedants.

So, I'm moving on from this particular discussion.  I will be starting a new thread soon to explore the FE map.  I hope people will actually participate and not derail.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 01, 2018, 08:21:52 PM
We could compare the astronomical predictions made by the flat earth model to those predictions made by the mainstream solar/lunar calculators. It would be the final test of which model is right. But there are two small problems with that plan....

1st.     We have no flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us test.
2nd.    There's no such thing as a flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us to test.

Otherwise, we could just check the data against observations and see which is more accurate.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on October 02, 2018, 04:47:45 PM
We could compare the astronomical predictions made by the flat earth model to those predictions made by the mainstream solar/lunar calculators. It would be the final test of which model is right. But there are two small problems with that plan....

1st.     We have no flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us test.
2nd.    There's no such thing as a flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us to test.

Otherwise, we could just check the data against observations and see which is more accurate.

We keep bringing the Sun and Moon into making a map. I really fail to understand it. When I look at a map of Minneapolis or Canada I don't see anything indicating predicted sun and moon positions on it.

I understand the stars/sun/moon being used for sea navigation.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Curious Squirrel on October 02, 2018, 05:33:30 PM
We could compare the astronomical predictions made by the flat earth model to those predictions made by the mainstream solar/lunar calculators. It would be the final test of which model is right. But there are two small problems with that plan....

1st.     We have no flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us test.
2nd.    There's no such thing as a flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us to test.

Otherwise, we could just check the data against observations and see which is more accurate.

We keep bringing the Sun and Moon into making a map. I really fail to understand it. When I look at a map of Minneapolis or Canada I don't see anything indicating predicted sun and moon positions on it.

I understand the stars/sun/moon being used for sea navigation.
The FE side has stated repeatedly that published distances cannot be trusted. "The distance from NY to Paris is unknown" after all. Sunrise/set times, and elevation of the sun, can create a rough map of where things have to be in relation to one another without a great need for distance. It can also be used to rule out proposed maps, namely those that wouldn't allow a 'spotlight sun' to function. So it's a possible test against any proposed layout.
Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 02, 2018, 06:20:43 PM
We could compare the astronomical predictions made by the flat earth model to those predictions made by the mainstream solar/lunar calculators. It would be the final test of which model is right. But there are two small problems with that plan....

1st.     We have no flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us test.
2nd.    There's no such thing as a flat earth model that accurately predicts solar lunar events for us to test.

Otherwise, we could just check the data against observations and see which is more accurate.

We keep bringing the Sun and Moon into making a map. I really fail to understand it. When I look at a map of Minneapolis or Canada I don't see anything indicating predicted sun and moon positions on it.

I understand the stars/sun/moon being used for sea navigation.

When mapping a single city, sun and moon won't matter at all. When mapping a continent, time zones predict the movement of the sun over time which speaks to distances between points on the continent. If you're mapping a planet, the movement of the sun and moon speaks to the size and shape of the planet. If your map is physically wrong, it will fail to accurately predict astronomical events.

Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: iamcpc on October 02, 2018, 07:12:52 PM
When mapping a single city, sun and moon won't matter at all. When mapping a continent, time zones predict the movement of the sun over time which speaks to distances between points on the continent. If you're mapping a planet, the movement of the sun and moon speaks to the size and shape of the planet. If your map is physically wrong, it will fail to accurately predict astronomical events.

I am able to use a map to drive from Northern Canada all the way to the southern part of South America with cloudy conditions through the entire trip so that i'm unable to ever see the sun, the moon, or even a single star. We are not talking about across the street. We are talking about millions and millions and millions of square miles which can be easily navigated by looking only at a paper map or series of paper maps none of which predicted the movement of the sun or moon.

Predicting astronomical events and cartography are two different things. Traveling damn near from one pole to the other does not require knowing what time and direction the sun should rise in the city 100 miles south of here.


Look at this system:

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/sunrise.html

It predicts the movement of the sun. Can I use it to navigate the earth? Nope I sure can't. This has got to be the WORST map of the earth I've ever seen.

It seems pretty good at predicting the movement of the sun.



Title: Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
Post by: MCToon on October 02, 2018, 07:40:13 PM
When mapping a single city, sun and moon won't matter at all. When mapping a continent, time zones predict the movement of the sun over time which speaks to distances between points on the continent. If you're mapping a planet, the movement of the sun and moon speaks to the size and shape of the planet. If your map is physically wrong, it will fail to accurately predict astronomical events.

I am able to use a map to drive from Northern Canada all the way to the southern part of South America with cloudy conditions through the entire trip so that i'm unable to ever see the sun, the moon, or even a single star. We are not talking about across the street. We are talking about millions and millions and millions of square miles which can be easily navigated by looking only at a paper map or series of paper maps none of which predicted the movement of the sun or moon.

Predicting astronomical events and cartography are two different things. Traveling damn near from one pole to the other does not require knowing what time and direction the sun should rise in the city 100 miles south of here.


Look at this system:

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/sunrise.html

It predicts the movement of the sun. Can I use it to navigate the earth? Nope I sure can't. This has got to be the WORST map of the earth I've ever seen.

It seems pretty good at predicting the movement of the sun.

If you look at the observations that have been accepted so far it starts to constrain the map.  For example, if you accept observations #1 and #4 as accurate:

1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.

Then the equator must be straight line east-west.  There is no way to have that observation be true and the equator not be straight line east-west.  This eliminates the AE map and all it's variants, but allows the bi-polar map and the infinite repeating plane.

Now, if you reject the equator being straight you also must reject observations #1 and #4.

By keeping the observations simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, and non-contentious rational people can have a discussion about it.

So far, we have a beginning: all points on the equator are on a straight east-west line.  There are no bounds on the distances, but the relative east-west positions cannot be rearranged.  If people wanted to contribute instead of whining, I think we could make some interesting progress.