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Offline Rounder

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Re: The sun
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2017, 05:01:01 AM »
I *suspect* that the "Universal Accelerator" idea came from a time before the infinite flat earth became popular.   But these days, with an infinite flat earth, I don't know why the FE'ers still need UA.
They need UA because:
  • Not all FE are "infinite plane" FE
  • No good reason for Sun and Moon and stars to stay above an infinite flat earth, if that FE has gravity
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Ok. You proven you are unworthy to unignored. You proven it was a bad idea to unignore you. and it was for me a disgusting experience...Now you are going to place where you deserved and accustomed.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: The sun
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2017, 01:59:51 PM »
it's been a few hundred years now that the entire scientific community has known gravity to be an observable force, easily proven with countless experiments (as demonstrated on this very forum like a billion times).
Gravity is not a force.

Argh...please stop making me agree with the FE'ers!

Yes, gravity is a force.

In RET:

  F = m1 x m2 x G / (dxd)

The FORCE of gravity is equal to the product of the two masses (m1=the mass of some object, m2=the mass of some other object...such as the Earth) multiplied by 'G' (big-G) the 'universal gravitational constant' (basically a factor introduced because we want 'd' in meters and m1/m2 in kg) divided by the square of the distance between the two object.  We don't often use this force in common math because it's annoyingly dependent on the mass of the object (m1).

So we do talk about 'g' - which is "the acceleration due to gravity"...or to spell it out more carefully "the acceleration that is caused by the force of gravity".

However, since:

   F = m a

   a = F / m       (or... g = F / m1 )

...and m is 'm1' and 'F' is the FORCE of gravity on that object...'a' is the acceleration of that object - which is "the acceleration due to gravity" or 'g' (if m2 is the earth).  Substituting for F:

  g = ( m1 x m2 x G / (dxd) ) / m1

...the m1's cancel out:

  g = m2 x G / (dxd)

...which is why all objects accelerate towards Earth at the same rate, no matter their mass (cue apocryphal story about Leonardo Da Vinci dropping cannon balls and stuff off of the Tower of Piza to prove it - or actual video of Astronaut dropping hammer and eagle feather on the moon...er...which "didn't happen" according to the FE'ers).

In FET (with universal acceleration) the mysterious upward acceleration of the earth causes a force to be applied to an object according to:

   F = m a

...where 'm' is the mass of the object 'a' is it's acceleration (which is 'g' in this case) and F is the resulting force.

So hell yes - gravity is a force...both in RET and FET.

No gravity is not a force. It is a consequence of the curvature of spacetime. It's not a force in either FET or RET. It's one of the things Einstein showed Newton's theories were wrong about.

Again I invite you to actually learn something instead of insisting you are right when you aren't; frankly I think you're making REers look bad with your closed-minded attitude. Here's some reading in case you are willing to learn. Past experience doesn't give me much hope, but maybe some of your colleagues would be interested in learning the facts about one of the biggest errors laymen regularly make about modern physics.

https://www.universetoday.com/108740/how-we-know-gravity-is-not-just-a-force/

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/140-physics/the-theory-of-relativity/general-relativity/1059-if-gravity-isn-t-a-force-how-does-it-accelerate-objects-advanced

https://futurism.com/gravity-isnt-a-force-so-how-does-it-move-objects/

Now I know you're not here to learn, you're here to teach. But don't you think your agenda would be better served by teaching the truth about your theory rather than attempting to justify your own erroneous opinions about it?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 02:03:01 PM by Roundy »
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The sun
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2017, 02:31:52 PM »
Now I know you're not here to learn, you're here to teach. But don't you think your agenda would be better served by teaching the truth about your theory rather than attempting to justify your own erroneous opinions about it?

Oh good grief...just read what Einstein wrote and don't put words into his mouth.

The force of gravity is an emergent property of the curvature of space-time - which is in turn caused by mass.  Same deal as the coriolis force which is an emergent property of the shape and curvature of the earth...or centrifugal force which is an emergent property of rotating systems...or the force exerted by a gas in a closed container which is an emergent property of pressure which is an emergent property of the motion of atoms.

It's perfectly valid to talk about forces - even when you know the underlying causes of them.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Roundy

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Re: The sun
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2017, 04:35:30 PM »
Now I know you're not here to learn, you're here to teach. But don't you think your agenda would be better served by teaching the truth about your theory rather than attempting to justify your own erroneous opinions about it?

Oh good grief...just read what Einstein wrote and don't put words into his mouth.

The force of gravity is an emergent property of the curvature of space-time - which is in turn caused by mass.  Same deal as the coriolis force which is an emergent property of the shape and curvature of the earth...or centrifugal force which is an emergent property of rotating systems...or the force exerted by a gas in a closed container which is an emergent property of pressure which is an emergent property of the motion of atoms.

It's perfectly valid to talk about forces - even when you know the underlying causes of them.

Please, try to learn something new. I know it's hard to admit when you're wrong but it's good to know the facts so you should always be open to the possibility that you're wrong.

What Einstein showed was that gravity is not a force, it only creates the appearance of a force. There are situations where gravity explicitly does not behave like a force, because it is not technically a force (the correct term is actually pseudoforce or fictitious force).

Here's another link. Please note the url, I would hate for you to think I'm linking to some random crackpots to support my argument. He explains exactly why gravity is not a force, why it looks like a force, and specifically when it behaves contrary to the way a force behaves. Please read it.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/140-physics/the-theory-of-relativity/general-relativity/1059-if-gravity-isn-t-a-force-how-does-it-accelerate-objects-advanced

Edit actually I did already post this one but it does a good job explaining things.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 04:38:32 PM by Roundy »
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

The sun is a spot light?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2017, 10:16:19 PM »
Apparently in the flat earth diagram the sun acts like a spot light lighting up a area. This denies logic for if the earth is flat you would able able to see it from anywhere in the world

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The sun is a spot light?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 08:16:27 PM »
Apparently in the flat earth diagram the sun acts like a spot light lighting up a area. This denies logic for if the earth is flat you would able able to see it from anywhere in the world

The bigger problem for the FE'ers is that their "flashlight" sun also has to light up the moon - even when it's FAR away from the sun and at the same approximate height.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: The sun
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2017, 03:28:09 PM »
Gravity is a "force" exactly the same way that centrifugal force is a "force". If you think that a "force" that arises from coordinate system transformations is a "fictional force" or some other expression of "not a force", that's fine. It's just word meanings. There's no reason to get upset about someone having a different concept of the word force.

As long as everybody agrees that if you were to transform to a different coordinate system the force would disappear everybody is agreeing on the important bits. Who cares if you say something is or is not a force if you understand the underlying equations?

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Offline Roundy

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Re: The sun
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 05:36:09 AM »
Gravity is a "force" exactly the same way that centrifugal force is a "force". If you think that a "force" that arises from coordinate system transformations is a "fictional force" or some other expression of "not a force", that's fine. It's just word meanings. There's no reason to get upset about someone having a different concept of the word force.

As long as everybody agrees that if you were to transform to a different coordinate system the force would disappear everybody is agreeing on the important bits. Who cares if you say something is or is not a force if you understand the underlying equations?

No one got upset. As I believe the linked article pointed out, the centrifugal force is not a force either. It's about a little more than word meanings. If something doesn't fit the physical definition of force it should not be characterized as a physical force. That's all.

To use a relevant analogy, a lot is made by REers about whether Flat Earth Theory deserves to be called a theory, since it doesn't fit the scientific definition of the word. They may or may not have a point (certainly FET is rarely characterized as a scientific theory even by believers, as it is considered zetetic in nature), but certainly there are less technical definitions of the word that do fit FET. Is that alone good enough to characterize it as a theory, or should we be more stringent with the definition?

I feel that for something like this if you are not using the technical definition you should make that explicit, otherwise it risks being misleading. And it is misleading to characterize gravity as a force, unless you are clear that you aren't using the technical physical definition of the word. The problem? Most people who characterize it as a force believe that they are technically right! I see no reason not to use it as an opportunity to give them a little bit of education.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The sun
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 04:00:37 AM »
Gravity is a "force" exactly the same way that centrifugal force is a "force". If you think that a "force" that arises from coordinate system transformations is a "fictional force" or some other expression of "not a force", that's fine. It's just word meanings. There's no reason to get upset about someone having a different concept of the word force.

As long as everybody agrees that if you were to transform to a different coordinate system the force would disappear everybody is agreeing on the important bits. Who cares if you say something is or is not a force if you understand the underlying equations?

No one got upset. As I believe the linked article pointed out, the centrifugal force is not a force either. It's about a little more than word meanings. If something doesn't fit the physical definition of force it should not be characterized as a physical force. That's all.



Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: The sun
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 03:48:55 AM »
I have a BURNING question
1) If gravity doesn't exist, and the sun's mass and distance from Earth is smaller, then what exactly makes is rotate? 2) And on top of that, how does it even know when to come up and down. 3) Another question... How do you explain pictures taken from the ISS and other satellites. 4) Also, why would Earth be the ONLY flat thing in the universe. Why would everything else be round like the Sun, Moon, and the rest of the planets in our solar system. And don't subside this question.
Briefly:
1) Makes what rotate? Earth doesn't rotate the Sun rolls along a 'track' above it.
2) No one knows.
3) Fake/CGI/falsified
4) Because the Earth is unique. It's not a planet. Why? No one knows.

But all of these are answered in (somewhat) greater detail in the wiki. I also highly suggest starting your journey there.
1) Eclipses, if the sun were that hot and that close, it would melt your imaginary 'ice wall'
2) ITS MAGIC JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE THAT DISPROVES YOUR THEORY
3) How are all the fakes identical? Also, you can see it for yourself with a good telescope.
4) If earth were flat, unless 'curvature of spacetime and passage of time' does not exist, it would collapse, under its own spacial indentation, into a ball.

You guys got one thing right. Gravity isn't real. Its time travel.  ???