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Messages - AllAroundTheWorld

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« on: December 06, 2021, 06:38:21 PM »
The same stupid video appeared in my youtube feed as well.
Hmm. I’m worried what that says about my interests and how aligned they might be to yours  :(

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Democracy Is Overrated
« on: December 06, 2021, 05:47:38 PM »

He does have a point, tbf.

I used to joke that there should be a test before you can vote, I am getting increasingly serious about that as I get older.
And I don’t mean an intelligence test but just some basic indication that you know who you’re voting for and what they stand for would be nice.

No, I prefer a bi-polar model and don't think the sunlight necessarily takes those shapes. That type of behavior is the general argument for the Monopole model though.
The thing I cannot get my head around in that model is how the sun moves.
So with the monopole model it orbits the north pole effectively, closer to the north pole in the northern summer, further away in the northern winter. I have issues with that - it means the radius of the orbit has to keep changing and therefore the speed has to change to maintain a 24 hour day/might cycle. And that has to reverse every 6 months. No mechanisms for any of this have been even proposed as far as I know.
But at least I understand the model.
With the bi-polar model then what, the sun orbits the north pole for 6 months and then switches to orbit the south pole for 6 months? That would explain the antarctic 24 hour sun I guess but it feels like you're causing a whole lot of other problems there in terms of where the sun is in any way that matches observations.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Problems with the FE sun
« on: November 21, 2021, 02:28:19 PM »
Hi Kangaroony,

I personally like the idea of there being a Dome or Thick Atmosphere above the earth which helps explain a lot of the lighting anomalies we see on a Flat Earth.  See the picture below of Melbourne and Perth with and without a Dome.  You'll notice the dramatic edges it creates with the sunlight
Is that glass solid? As in, it’s a solid hemisphere of glass? If so then that surely has significantly different optical properties than the FE dome which sits over and above the earth and the atmosphere.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 19, 2021, 11:29:03 AM »
Yeah, that's what I said.

Also who's idea was it to host a WC qualifier in northern canada in late November!? Celebrations with snowballs and diving into snowbanks is a new one for me
I went to see Bayern Munich play one time (my team were playing them, we got our arses handed to us).
It was winter and it was a pretty miserable day but one highlight was a massive snowball fight during half time.

This would also work better as a critique if you weren't discarding several observations I've mentioned in this thread which disprove FET.
You've done no such thing. You're rambling because you don't understand basic FET

OK. Well help me out then. Talk me through how the 24 hour sun in the Antarctic works with your FE model. In the model presented in your Wiki the southern region should be outside the circle the sun makes above the earth at all times. How can it circle around you in the South? I only see 3 possibilities:

1) It doesn't, that video is faked in some way
2) Your FET model is wrong
3) I don't understand your FET model

If it's 3 then fine, help me out. And just saying I need to learn what I'm arguing about is a little unfair when I've searched your Wiki and couldn't find anything about the 24 hour sun in the Antarctic. If it's not mentioned there (unless I missed something) then what else do I have to go on?

That's how both FET and RET have it.
You know this isn't true.

OK, so first let's be clear about what the "this" is. I said "some of Africa to the south [of Europe] and some of Asia to the east".
I mean...that is how the continents are positioned...isn't it?
I compared Dicaearchus' map with a modern map and the FE one from your Wiki:

A couple of things here. I'd suggest that Dicaearchus' map is a lot closer to the modern one than it is yours - Spain and India are oriented the same way, for example. In your FE map they are angled about 90 degrees with respect to one another. But in all 3 maps Africa is to the south of Europe, Asia is to the East - in your FE version "East" is defined a little differently.

You called Dicaearchus' map "a remarkably sensible representation of north-centric FET". Am I missing something? His map looks remarkably like a modern map of that part of the world. Obviously I'm making some allowances for the time he was working at, but it's not like he has everything in a completely different place to our current understanding.

There simply is no other explanation. You can't be corrected on matters of fact and still insist on propagating your untruth, ignoring counter-arguments and refusing to provide any evidence of your own.

I haven't ignored any counter argument. I've dealt with everything you've said. I've conceded the point that my thoughts on the FE theory Rowbotham outlines in ENaG being north-centric because of where he lived is more of an opinion than a fact. I have confessed some ignorance about historic FE models but you have yet to provide evidence that they were north-centric in the same way that Rowbotham's is.

There is another explanation other than me being dishonest - you're not correct, or I don't think you are.
You are stating things as fact without providing sources to back them up and expecting me to just accept you are right about everything.
Any push back and you just accuse me of being dishonest.

You mentioned Dicaearchus - who I admittedly hadn't heard of - so I looked in to that, found his map and noted that it looks pretty much like a modern map. And I did provide evidence - 2 sources which claim he knew the earth was a globe. I have no idea how you can claim that his map is "a remarkably sensible representation of north-centric FET" when it looks so similar to a modern map.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 16, 2021, 09:08:06 PM »
If you want to get somewhere you plan a route
(pronounced “root”)
In Australia, "root" is a slang term for sexual intercourse. Planning a root is very different from planning a route.

You're welcome, former colonial overlords.
Yes. I notice from Home and Away and Neighbours that you also use the word “but” at the end of a sentence when you should use “though”. Weirdos.

Australia is my second favourite country which we invented though and my favourite former prison colony.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 16, 2021, 08:57:19 PM »
By the way, FAO Americans.
England’s battering of San Marino would be described by our press as a rout (pronounced “rowt”).
If you want to get somewhere you plan a route
(pronounced “root”)

But Americans pronounce “route” like we pronounce “rout”. Wrongly, obviously.

So my question is do Americans pronounce “rout” and “route” the same, or do you guys not use the word “rout” to describe a heavy defeat?

Thanks in advance.

Observations that disprove RET, despite being readily available, will be discarded by you. After all, you neglected to read them, and that might as well mean they weren't there at all. Maybe if we wrote them down for you just one more time, things would change! Yes, this must be it! Just one more explanation, that'll get through to the Man Who Doesn't Read!

I have no idea what observations you are referring to here, what haven't I read?
I have repeatedly asked you for details of the observations you have made which led you to FE belief and you have repeatedly demurred.
Piqued by my interest in this place I've seen a load of YouTube videos with "flat earth proofs". They are without exception people not understanding RET, people making mistakes in their method, misidentifying distant landmarks or making calculation errors.
Which isn't to say RET in the wider sense is "complete", there are anomalies, things we don't understand. But that doesn't mean you need to throw the globe baby out with the bath water. The earth can be a globe without us understanding how everything works.

This would also work better as a critique if you weren't discarding several observations I've mentioned in this thread which disprove FET.

Maps before the entire Earth was explored will be discarded by you. Damn it if the layout of the continents matches FET and indistinguishably contradicts RET, pattern-recognition can stuff it if it doesn't support your favourite shape of the Earth. After all, they don't show the entire thing, and we couldn't possibly recognise simple facts when they're inconvenient.
Discarded in what way? I looked into the map you mentioned and found two sources which suggested that the creator of it understood the earth was a globe. This map in particular has the shape of Europe fairly accurate, some of Africa to the south and some of Asia to the east. That's how both FET and RET have it. The map is far from perfect but given the time he was working in, it's a pretty good effort. But the layout of the continents which are shown is reasonably consistent with our modern understanding.
The differences between the RE and FE maps only become really apparent when you have a more global view and look at the shape and relative placement of Australia and the Americas. Those aren't on Dicæarchus' map because they weren't known back then.
And as I've said, every map contradicts RET. Because you can't perfectly map the surface of a sphere on to a plane

It is "pretty reasonable" of me to demand that you back up your claims... but you've stopped short of actually backing them up. Gee, I wonder why that might be.

I guess it's fair to say that my thought that the modern FET works better in the northern hemisphere than the southern one because it was developed in the northern hemisphere is more of an opinion than a fact.

Even though you now know that the actual origins of FET are pretty close to the Equator, you still insist on your imagination.
Are you still talking about ancient Egypt? Are you claiming that's the origin of FET? Honestly, I don't know if that's true. But when I looked into your comments about Dicæarchus I found two sources which claim he knew the earth was a sphere. And I have in this thread consistently talking about the FE model outlined in ENaG which I would suggest is a different FE model than any ancient one.

You're trying very hard to make yourself look dishonest. And then you're gonna complain about me noticing it. Stop. Be honest instead.

I'm going to complain about you trying very hard to think of me as dishonest.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 15, 2021, 09:34:35 PM »
And that’s how it finished.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 15, 2021, 09:28:07 PM »
Tonight ... San Marino vs England

I predict:      San Marino 0 - 6 England
You meant by half time, obviously.
Obviously. I'm not even watching the second half.
I couldn’t be arsed watching, so inevitable was the result. Just had a look, it’s 10-0 at the moment  :D

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 15, 2021, 08:49:38 PM »
Tonight ... San Marino vs England

I predict:      San Marino 0 - 6 England
You meant by half time, obviously.

No. By "works" I mean "matches observations". I'm looking for a model which matches observations - aren't you?
Indeed - that's why I abandoned RET so long ago.
Yes. What a shame you won't explain in detail what observations led you to that conclusion so others can see what mistakes you have made.

[sudden rambling about midnight sun]

You said that I am imagining flaws in FET. I've mentioned several flaws. Those videos illustrate one of them.
Those observations match what I would predict on a spherical earth which rotates and whose axis of rotation is tilted such that in each hemisphere's summer you get 24 hour sun at certain latitudes. And, crucially, the sun would rotate in different directions in the north and south, just as those videos show. The FET presented on this website has the sun rotating around the north pole. How then would it rotate around a point in the south in their summer in the opposite direction to the 24 hour sun in the north?

Um, okay. I take it you're ready to withdraw your imagined allegation that north-centric FET originated with Rowbotham, then?

If the model he presents in ENaG, with the north pole in the middle and a southern ice wall is not his then fine, cheerfully withdrawn.

Drop it. Be honest instead.

See above.
But I'm going to wager that whoever came up with it lived and made observations in the northern hemisphere. In which case that doesn't change the point I'm making which is that the FET presented on this site works a lot better in the northern hemisphere than it does the southern hemisphere because it originated in the northern hemisphere. And did so at a time when long distance travel and communication was, at best, slow which meant the flaws which are more evident in the south were less obvious at the time.

The classic "I made a bullshit claim that you contradicted, so now I'm going to demand that you evidence your counterclaim, while completely ignoring my own lack of evidence."

It's pretty reasonable of me to ask you to evidence your claim - it's pretty reasonable for you to ask me the same.

Around 300BC (attributed to Dicaearchus of Messana, hopefully we can agree Rowbotham didn't touch this one!), a reasonably good representation of the then-known lands from a Sicilian perspective, and a remarkably sensible representation of north-centric FET

So, admittedly my history is terrible. So I had a look in to this and found the map you've posted a picture of and some info about it here:

So firstly...that's just a map. A map is by definition flat, that doesn't mean it's intended to represent a flat earth.
In fact the above says in the explanation:

Dicaearchus adopted the ratio of 3:2 for the oikoumene’s extent. He reported distances between certain places and
measured the heights of mountains, which he then compared with the size of the oikoumene to show that they did not significantly affect the earth’s sphericity

My emphasis. And this source:


Dicaearchus described his version of the world, and was the first to consider the map of the world as part of a sphere. He built upon the discoveries of some of the explorers of the time, and was able to describe a line of latitude from east to west. This line showed how all points on the line saw the noonday sun at equal angles from the zenith.

My emphasis again.
So...Dicaearchus produced an admittedly impressive map for the time of the known world but it's nothing like a world map as we would know it and it doesn't seem like his map was intended to represent a flat Earth anyway.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 15, 2021, 03:57:34 PM »
Tonight ... San Marino vs England

I predict:      San Marino 0 - 6 England

You continue to say "works" when you mean "fits my preconceived notions". You're not looking for a model that "works", you're looking for a model that matches RET 1:1, despite RET's internal contradictions.
No. By "works" I mean "matches observations". I'm looking for a model which matches observations - aren't you?

Well, for a start these flaws aren't imagined.
Of course they are.

You were talking about the reason why FET is north-centric. You claimed it had something to do with Rowbotham. It did not - the north-centric roots of FET predate Rowbotham by millennia. When confronted with new information, the correct move is to adapt your views, not just discard reality in favour of emotion.
You have yet to demonstrate this claim. So the correct move is to ask you to evidence the claim.
The ancient FE models did not have the north pole at the centre of a disc or Antarctica as an ice wall around the edge. Because they didn't have any concept of those things.
I'm talking about Rowbotham's model which has those features. If he didn't originate that model then fine, replace Rowbotham with whoever did, but it wasn't the ancient Egyptians or the ancient anyone else.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 15, 2021, 11:43:29 AM »
Since England won in 1966 they have never made it further than the semi finals and have an average finish of 8th place. Over the same time span, the Netherlands have been runner up three times and have an average finish of 6th place.
So...that's England 1, The Netherlands 0 in terms of World Cups then.

It's the hope that kills you with England. Because we basically invented football we think we should be the best at it but we demonstrably aren't. That said, we do have a good side right now - semi-finals of the last World Cup, final of the Euros this year. But the final this year broke me. I'm not going to sing "it's coming home" again because it never bloody is. If we can't win a final at home then I bloody give up.

It is only you who assumes the northern hemiplane has anything to do with the history of the theory. Ancient Egyptians would not be particularly subject to the bias you're so brazenly accusing them of, simply due to their location.
I wasn't talking about the ancient Egyptians. They didn't have the global perspective we have. Sure, they traded with other nations but they didn't know about The Americas or Australia, Antarctica or the North Pole. I don't believe there is an ancient Egyptian world map - or it certainly wouldn't be a world map as we know it.

Then again, you didn't know who you were accusing, you were just saying it because it made you feel warm and fuzzy inside.
I was talking specifically about Rowbotham because from what I understand it was his ENaG book which outlined the "modern" FE model.
It wasn't an "accusation" but he was writing at a time when the world had been pretty much mapped out. His model demonstrably works better in the northern hemisphere than it does the southern, my guess is that's because he lived and worked in the northern hemisphere.
In an era when international travel and communication was still slow the problems in the southern hemisphere were less evident.

The Flat Earth model works perfectly fine. What you're trying to say is that it doesn't match your (ignorant, as you demonstrated) preconceptions.
I'm saying it doesn't match observations.
I mean, the simple observation that the sun maintains a consistent angular size through the day demonstrates it must be at a constant distance.
I've outlined the specific problems with the southern hemisphere. What's the FE flight path of the Santiago to Sydney flight, for example?
You have to deny an entire continent exists. Then there's the problem of star trails - if there's a FE explanation for that then I've not seen it.

You want the Earth to be round, so you imagine flaws in FET, like the one above.

Well, for a start these flaws aren't imagined.
And secondly I don't "want" the earth to be any particular shape. If the earth was flat and my GPS worked, international travel still got me where I wanted to go and my satellite TV still worked then the shape of the earth would have no consequence for my life.

FET is north-centric because Rowbotham would have lived in England thousands of years later - I'm sure you can see why this isn't compelling.

No, that thing you said which bears no relation to what I said isn't compelling.
Again, I'm not talking about the ancient FE models. I'm talking about Rowbotham's. Are you suggesting the ancient Egyptians who didn't know the north pole existed had a FE model which placed it at the centre or had a model where the sun goes in circles above the earth and sunset is caused by perspective? Rowbotham's FE model is not the same as the ancient ones.

That relies on the assumption that long-distance trade is a much more recent invention than it really is. I can see why it would be convenient for you to believe this, considering your strong RET bias, but it's pretty much impossible if you consider history, even at a very high level. The concept of local time, long before it was compartmentalised into "timezones", was unavoidable back when sundials were the primary reference frame for time.
This is nothing to do with convenience. Honestly, I don't know what the ancient flat earth model was in detail and it doesn't actually matter what it was. I Googled it and struggled to find anything much. By ancient I'm talking thousands of years ago, when people probably didn't have much of an idea about how anything worked. From a local perspective the thought that the earth is flat, the sun rises above it and that's day, goes around the sky and then sinks below it and that's night makes some sense. The idea of a flat earth with the north pole in the centre and the sun and moon circling above it is surely a modern FE one. And the fact the earth is a globe is not exactly a new one.

But whether this FE model putting the north pole in the middle is because Rowbotham or anyone else lived in the northern hemisphere, the point I'm trying to make is no flat earth model (or none I've seen) can work equally well for both hemispheres. For the same reason that no world map can accurately represent all land mass shapes and distances. Because it is impossible to perfectly map the surface of a sphere onto a flat plane. Something has to give. In the case of your model what gives is how well it works for the southern hemisphere. You have to deny the entire continent of Antarctica even exists - or does so in the way conventionally claimed, you have problems with distances in the southern hemisphere because on a globe lines of longitude converge to a point at the south pole, in your model they keep diverging. And star trails in the southern hemisphere are problematic.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: 2022 FIFA World Cup
« on: November 14, 2021, 10:29:33 AM »
Montenegro 2 – 2 Netherlands
Bahahahaaha! 🤣

Imagine having this attitude while supporting the Maple Leafs of international football.
Imagine thinking that anyone outside North America or Canada gives a shit about sports in that region and thus would understand that reference.

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