Religion and for-profit business
« on: December 02, 2013, 03:57:45 PM »
I've been reading the articles about the fight of for-profit businesses, specifically Hobby Lobby, against the healthcare mandate to provide both control.  In most cases they are only fighting over the morning after pill and other such after thought type contraceptives, but I did read about one company trying to fight against it all because the owners are Catholic.

I don't want to get into the debate that there shouldn't be such a mandate in the first place, I'm more curious what everyone's take is on the religious freedom of for-profit business.  Should the owners of a for profit business be able to declare that business as a specific religion?  Should this declaration be sufficient to exempt the business from mandates which go against the religion?  Do you think it is right to subject employees of a for-profit business to the religious beliefs of the owners, specifically when the product being sold is not religious in nature?

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 04:27:11 PM »
Can you link us some of these articles?  I haven't heard about this, but from what you stated this sounds like a pretty interesting case.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 04:42:09 PM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/11/26/supreme-court-obamacare-contraception-religion-corporation/3700813/

Here is one article.  There are plenty more which can be found through Google.  It sounds like Hobby Lobby is essentially the spokes person for these religious for-profits.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 12:31:21 AM »
I've been reading the articles about the fight of for-profit businesses, specifically Hobby Lobby, against the healthcare mandate to provide both control.  In most cases they are only fighting over the morning after pill and other such after thought type contraceptives, but I did read about one company trying to fight against it all because the owners are Catholic.

I don't want to get into the debate that there shouldn't be such a mandate in the first place, I'm more curious what everyone's take is on the religious freedom of for-profit business.  Should the owners of a for profit business be able to declare that business as a specific religion?  Should this declaration be sufficient to exempt the business from mandates which go against the religion?  Do you think it is right to subject employees of a for-profit business to the religious beliefs of the owners, specifically when the product being sold is not religious in nature?
First of all the mandate has alredey been pased so TO FLIPPIN BAD FOR THEM! How can you say your a Christian when you dont even beleive in natural rights! They refuse to acept the basic abortion and contraceptive rights and are blinded by there ignorence and sexism. These poor people need these rights!!!!!!! Look people want to live there lives so lets get real: NOBODYS GOING TO WANT TO WAIT FOR MARRIAGE!!! Today more and more young people are playing hanky panky so do you reley want there whole lives to be ruined all because they couldnt get protection? Safe sex is vital to societey and all churches should promote it they need to end there ignorence. Wake up and smell the coffee! And because they cant get protection they can get pregnent and theyl need an abortion but crazey fundamentalist conservastupit radicals are trying to prevent this and call these women terible names. And as we known to well some women cant aford abortions and need taxpayer money in order to get it. So whats the solution? TAX IT!!!!!!!!!!! Why cant we just help our felow citizen out and let her pay for her abortion. No where in the bible does it say a women cant get an abortion let alone contraceptives. Idiots are what they are and sexists and rascists to. The "baby" isnt even a living thing its a COLLECTION OF TISUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they say that women are "killing" the "baby"? There the ones who are killing the woman by ruining her life all because she made a mistake!!!!!!!!!! The republistupit party is full of hate. This is a WAR ON WOMEN and we must defend woman and make sure they have the necesarey coverage concerning this wether these people are pro-"life" or pro-choice. Sickens me!!!
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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 12:44:54 AM »
Corporations shouldn't be exempt.  The only way a corporation should be able to exempt a mandate is if all the employees held the same belief.  This, however, also has to account for potential future employees, and if you say "only people of this religious belief may work here" then the company is going to run into Equal Employment Opportunity issues.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 01:00:24 AM »
I didn't think Hobby Lobby was a corporation.  I'll have to check into this but I did not think they were an openly traded public company.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 01:07:26 AM »
I may have the wrong terminology (although the link you provided called it a corporation as well) but I meant it as any business that isn't family owned and operated or is but hires outside-the-family employees.  Obviously, any company with 50+ employees, which are the ones affected by the mandate, is hiring more than just family members.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 01:19:24 AM »
What about a business that only provides religious services/products, one such as Lifeway which is a Christian bookstore?

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 01:25:33 AM »
I don't think that would matter as long as the possibility remained that employees could have opposing beliefs.  To deny their workers contraception coverage on religious grounds just because it provides religious services/products is like saying waiters at an organic health foods store can't eat fast food because the business they work for provides a certain dietary product/service and the business itself does not agree with eating fast food.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 01:55:15 AM »
However, a Christian store which provides only Christian based products is obviously stating that they are a Christian store, almost akin to a church just without the  worship.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 02:12:30 AM »
If it's not a center of worship then what really gives them the right to claim religious exemption from the law?  They're not a part of the Church itself.  This would be like saying a private tax accountant should receive the same benefits as a government employee just because they are a citizen under that government and provide a government-related service.

Should a person be exempt from interest rates on mortgages, or businesses exempt from loan interests, if those parties claimed religious objections against the charging of interest?  The point of this paragraph is to add the thought that a ruling in favor of company exemptions could lead to a lot more Pastafarian-like groups setting up shop just to avoid government mandates they don't want to follow.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 04:34:53 AM »
When a business caters specifically to a group, it could very easily be said that the business is part of that group.  Religious education institutions enjoy the exemption from the Obamacare mandate on birth control.  These institutions teach and employ secular people.  Why would they be exempt but a store which caters only Christian items not be exempt?

Offline Socker

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 07:03:43 AM »
I'm split on this issue. On one hand I think that a corporation who finds it religiously offensive to provide contraceptives (which is a authentic reason, I think) should not be required to. Of course, the flip side is that it would be too easy for any company to claim they are a Christian company, saving money from not having to buy contraceptives.

I suppose there could be guidelines, but I still feel the system would be abused no matter what. Hobby Lobby, from my experience, would be a genuine case for this, but I suppose my final verdict would be to require everyone to comply regardless, as any sort of rules governing this could easily be avoided.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 02:33:47 PM »
A true corporation, one publicly traded and owned, should have no religious protection because you don't have one unifying choice from the owners.  A privately owned company has the luxury of having a single owner or close nit ownership group so it could identify a religion.  That being said, I don't think it is right for Hobby Lobby to receive religious exemption because the owners are religious while the store in its day to day operation is nonreligious.  They may donate profits to religious organizations, but at the end of the day they are selling craft items, not religious items.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 03:09:06 AM »
When a business caters specifically to a group, it could very easily be said that the business is part of that group.  Religious education institutions enjoy the exemption from the Obamacare mandate on birth control.  These institutions teach and employ secular people.  Why would they be exempt but a store which caters only Christian items not be exempt?

If the educational institutions in question provide worship service, then they have a right to claim to be a part of that group and receive the exemptions; otherwise they do not have that right.

Additionally, the schools provide an educational service that is conjoined with teachings in the church. Stores like Lifeway do not aim to educate, they aim to profit from material goods. That being said, stores themselves shouldn't be able to provide worship services and be granted the same benefits, because it would be too easy for stores to do this with the intention of receiving tax breaks, healthcare exemptions, and the like.

There needs to be a clear line drawn between a business that provides a strictly educational service and a business that sells goods.  To additionally clarify, an educational goods store that may sell teaching supplies for a christian school counts as the latter, not the former.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM »
As far as I know, the only thing these types of stores are asking for is exemption for the birth control mandate due to conflicts with their religious views.  They aren't asking for the tax breaks of nonprofits, nor would they receive them because they are not nonprofits.  The question really because, does the owner's religious views translate to the business.  This is obvious for sole proprietors, not so obvious for corporations.

Offline Socker

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 04:49:38 AM »
I would support a sole proprietor having immunity to this part of the law if they identify as religious. I suppose a larger company would work as well if they specifically sold religious products. (Bibles, ect.)

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 05:13:34 AM »
The main purpose of a corporation is to run the business and make money, and they function in a manner similar to the government.  We shouldn't count corporations as people.  We should treat them more like machines desinged to perform specific tasks.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 05:42:26 AM »
Corporations run nothing like governments.  There is nothing that runs like a government except another government.  Why shouldn't a corporation be counted as a person when they can have a lawsuit filed against them like a person?  Corporations are set up to protect their owners from liability, with the company taking on that liability instead.  If the company can assume liability and be sued, they should be considered an individual in legal terms.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 06:09:53 AM »
I guess government was too broad.  I was referring to how decisions are voted upon in a (somewhat) democratic fashion by the shareholders, and also in that they are designed to perform a primary task (making a profit) and the necessary actions required to perform that primary task.

Also, it is possible to file suit against the government, and the department to which claims were filed against must pay any due compensation rather than any employees or department heads themsleves.  You can also file suit against a school.  It doesn't mean any of these institutions should be granted religious authority for the sole reason that they can be sued.  Consumers may file suit against the corporations because it's a means to protect and compensate the consumers from any defective or hazardous products, environments, etc.  Likewise, the corporations can defend themselves in court in order to protect themselves from losing money due to having to pay out compensation for bogus claims.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.