Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2018, 03:16:06 PM »

RE can explain all these observations, FE cannot. So the weight of evidence is in favour of RE. In fact, the weight is so in favour of RE that is an accepted scientific fact.
The writings of great Flat Earthers like Samuel Rowbotham, Thomas Winship, Lady Blount, Tom Bishop etc. attest to the opposite.  Regardless, there is indeed a hierarchy of evidence.  The more direct an evidence for a claim is far more convincing than an indirect evidence because there is a much higher probability that an alternative explanation for the indirect evidence can be found than an alternative explanation for the direct evidence. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 03:23:12 PM by George Jetson »

totallackey

Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2018, 04:46:10 PM »
It doesn't matter what the mechanism is that is causing the bending of light.
Doesn't matter if earth is flat or globe.
If light is being bent in the opposite direction - upwards away from earth- green flash won't be on top of an apparent setting (or rising) sun.

If you want your green flash and an upward bending of light to explain sun setting in a flat earth model, you need a new explanation for the phenomenon and not the one we currently have that is compatible with globe earth.
Let me get this straight...you, while dismissing FE, are proclaiming how something would be physically manifested in that place you deny could exist...

Good luck with that...I ain't buyin'...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 05:55:29 PM by totallackey »

Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2018, 04:46:24 PM »
This thread isn't about arguing about whether or not there is a curve.


The phenomena of the sun reaching (and sinking behind) the horizon and also being able to exhibit a green flash are consistently explicable by a globe model with an atmosphere.

In a flat earth model, you can have a green flash, but then there is no explanation consistent with the green flash to explain the sun reaching (and appearing to sink behind) a horizon. Or, you can have a curved/refracted light explanation for why the sun appears to reach and set at a horizon, but then that defeats the green flash explanation. There is no flat earth model that I've seen yet proposed that can explain both without contradiction.

The explanation for sunsets in the standard Flat Earth model is that the sunsets are a consequence of perspective, eg: objects appear lower the farther away they are from the observer.  Why do you think this precludes a green flash for FE?  According to livescience.com "When the sun starts to dip below the horizon the colors of the spectrum disappear one at a time, starting with those with the longest wavelengths to those with the shortest. At sunrise, the process is reversed, and a green flash may occur as the top of the sun peeks above the horizon."  This process would occur on a Flat Earth or a Round Earth just the same, or am I missing something.   ???

Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2018, 05:05:16 PM »
This thread isn't about arguing about whether or not there is a curve.


The phenomena of the sun reaching (and sinking behind) the horizon and also being able to exhibit a green flash are consistently explicable by a globe model with an atmosphere.

In a flat earth model, you can have a green flash, but then there is no explanation consistent with the green flash to explain the sun reaching (and appearing to sink behind) a horizon. Or, you can have a curved/refracted light explanation for why the sun appears to reach and set at a horizon, but then that defeats the green flash explanation. There is no flat earth model that I've seen yet proposed that can explain both without contradiction.

The explanation for sunsets in the standard Flat Earth model is that the sunsets are a consequence of perspective, eg: objects appear lower the farther away they are from the observer.  Why do you think this precludes a green flash for FE?  According to livescience.com "When the sun starts to dip below the horizon the colors of the spectrum disappear one at a time, starting with those with the longest wavelengths to those with the shortest. At sunrise, the process is reversed, and a green flash may occur as the top of the sun peeks above the horizon."  This process would occur on a Flat Earth or a Round Earth just the same, or am I missing something.   ???
On a RE the sun appears HIGHER than it actually is during sunrise/set. This is what produces the green flash at the TOP of the sun. For FE, the sun appears LOWER in the sky in order to create sunrise/set. This should produce a RED flash at sunrise/set at the TOP of the sun, not a GREEN flash (if I'm remembering my color theory correctly) at the TOP of the sun. The light is bending the incorrect way for the green flash to occur. Since we see a GREEN flash, that explanation for how the sun sets on a FE doesn't fit the observation. So either the Earth isn't flat, or the mechanism that allows both the sun to appear LOWER in the sky AND create a GREEN flash, is unknown. Which is a pretty big hole for the FE hypothesis.

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Offline markjo

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Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2018, 05:43:35 PM »
On a RE the sun appears HIGHER than it actually is during sunrise/set. This is what produces the green flash at the TOP of the sun. For FE, the sun appears LOWER in the sky in order to create sunrise/set. This should produce a RED flash at sunrise/set at the TOP of the sun, not a GREEN flash (if I'm remembering my color theory correctly) at the TOP of the sun.
According to the great physicist ROY G BIV, green is actually in the middle of the spectrum, so I'm not sure if FE refraction would change the color of the flash.  Otherwise, what you say sounds about right.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2018, 06:54:18 PM »
On a RE the sun appears HIGHER than it actually is during sunrise/set. This is what produces the green flash at the TOP of the sun. For FE, the sun appears LOWER in the sky in order to create sunrise/set. This should produce a RED flash at sunrise/set at the TOP of the sun, not a GREEN flash (if I'm remembering my color theory correctly) at the TOP of the sun.
According to the great physicist ROY G BIV, green is actually in the middle of the spectrum, so I'm not sure if FE refraction would change the color of the flash.  Otherwise, what you say sounds about right.
Green is more common, but shorter wavelength blue and even violet flashes do occur, though rare and normally only captured in photos/video with magnification. The reason for that is the wavelengths shorter than green will be subjected more to the extinction effects of the atmosphere: diffusion/scattering. So those refracted rays don't survive the distance. When they do, they do stack on top of the green because they are refracted more.

Colors with longer wavelengths like orange and red are below. 

If you reverse the refraction index (or whatever mechanism that is causing light to bend and be dispersed into its constituent wavelengths, the prism ordering will be reversed. Violets/blues/greens will be on the bottom and the yellow/orange/red will be on top.

Green IS more toward the middle, but when it comes to "flashes" on the sun's upper limb, it's the most likely.

I can find a picture showing blue or even violet.

If refraction of the sort that bends light toward the earth as sunlight passes from the rarer, higher atmolayer altitudes to the denser, lower levels exists in both RE and FE models, it wouldn't change the color order. The problem for FE -- or at least one problem I'm trying to to highlight with this topic -- is that FE models that explain the lower elevation of the sun at sunset through refraction can't also explain the order ordering of the prismatic colors and the "green flash" using the same refractive explanation. The two are contrary to each other.

The refractive situation that makes the "green flash" on top of a setting sun possible also visually elevates the sun from it's actual position. But in FE, an explanation for the sun being lower than it actually is is required for the sun to appear to set at all. So if the air is what is causing the sun to appear to reach a horizon on a flat earth, then the "green flash" won't happen. It would be a "red flash". Or maybe "green flashes" below the sun as it meets the horizon.

 

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2018, 07:22:18 PM »
The explanation for sunsets in the standard Flat Earth model is that the sunsets are a consequence of perspective, eg: objects appear lower the farther away they are from the observer. 
Are you sure that's still the "standard?" It is the flaws in the "perspective" theory for sunsets that has led some FE proponents to seek better explanations, like atmospheric refraction, electromagnetic accelerator theory, or other unexplained mechanisms that cause light to bend away from earth to give the appearance of "hull-up sinking ships" and the setting or rising of sun and moon.

If standard, or should we say orthodox, FET is that light is refracted toward the earth similar to the globe earth model but perspective is the reason the sun appears to reach the horizon, then for that FE model, you'd be absolutely right. The "green flash" is not a unique feature of a globe sunset. It could happen on a FE.

But only if the perspective explanation actually works. In no model of FE, whether AE or bi-polar or infinite plane or any that I've seen, does the path of the sun ever reach a distance sufficient for perspective to lower the sun's elevation to the horizon. There's not enough distance. It becomes a "handwave" ad hoc rationalization to declare perspective can produce the setting of the sun without explaining the attending geometry required for that to happen.

When I've seen it tried, it invokes "bending" of the light somehow to bring the sun to less that around 15-20 degrees above the horizon with the available expanse over which the sun travels above the earth. But any "bending" to create the illusion or appearance that the sun is meeting the horizon is opposite of that required to produce a "green flash." So the only way for perspective to work in conjunction with "green flash" producing refraction is if light is refracted toward the surface of the earth, which is a problem I have not seen solved in the perspective explanation. Perspective can only go so far in bringing the sun down in angular elevation over a flat earth, especially when toward-earth refraction is working against it to raise the apparent elevation.

I presumed in opening this topic that FET had or was moving beyond perspective as a model for explaining sun's apparent motion. I disparage the perspective-based model, but I consider the proposed EAT-based model challenging and have sought to find and articulate observable distinctions between a spherical earth with a refractive atmosphere from a flat earth with EAT (and a refractive atmolayer). The phenomenon of the "green flash" is one of those I think I've identified. But yes, it assumes that the FE model has abandoned the flawed perspective rationale. If not, then that's another topic, and one that's been hashed out over and over again.

I'm not certain, but I think the inception of EAT may have been motivated by flaws in explaining sunset/rise as a product of perspective.

Why do you think this precludes a green flash for FE?
Hopefully now you understand. It's only for any FE model that invokes upward bending of light to explain phenomena like setting suns or objects appearing to be cut off by the horizon. In a model in which light is refracted or bent by the medium of the atmo- in a way that is toward the earth, I wouldn't think that a green flash is precluded.

According to livescience.com "When the sun starts to dip below the horizon the colors of the spectrum disappear one at a time, starting with those with the longest wavelengths to those with the shortest. At sunrise, the process is reversed, and a green flash may occur as the top of the sun peeks above the horizon."  This process would occur on a Flat Earth or a Round Earth just the same, or am I missing something.   ???
What you're missing is FE model explanations for other phenomena that are contrary to that excerpt. EAT is one such proposal. Another is claiming "refraction" as the reason for the appearance of sunsets or missing hulls of distant ships or why hundreds of feet of distant towers or mountain ranges are cut off by an apparent horizon.

If those, in your view" are non-standard and the standard is Perspective and you believe Perspective to be adequate for the FE model, then this topic isn't for you.  Because, yes, in that view, the "green flash" argument is irrelevant and would work the same (mostly).

But then why did you show me a video of a refractive dome? That's not perspective. That's the refraction of light. And if that's how the atmolayer works over a flat earth, then show me how such a refracting dome can cause the sun to appear to set on a horizon while also producing "green flash."
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 07:27:30 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2018, 11:38:26 PM »
Maybe this will help. These are exaggerated to better show how the refracting of different wavelengths works to create the dispersion of color.

In this example, light is bending toward earth as it encounters increasing air density, refracting towards the denser medium. Red (longer wavelength) is refracted less than green (shorter wavelength). Because the green light has experienced a greater degree of refraction, the perceived elevation of that source will be higher than the less-refracted red. So the green rim will be elevated above the longer wavelength colors.


That prism-effect of refraction isn't enough to produce a perceptible green rim on the sun except under fine detail in some photographs. But that isn't the "flash." To get the flash you need the magnification of that thin green rim by a mirage or mock mirage. Even then, it often takes a camera with telephoto to capture it. I've never seen it with my naked eyes.

But that's the explanation. And as long as sunlight is passing through the atmosphere/layer at an angle where it is encountering increasing density, it will refract toward the normal; toward the denser medium. In an atmosphere, conforming around a spherical earth, that happens even if the light is tangent to the earth. Because the atmosphere curves away, the light will refract to try to follow the lower, denser portion of the atmosphere. On a flat earth, that won't happen (unless there's some principle of atmolayer layering over a flat earth that isn't also flat.)

But regardless, if penetrating the atmolayer at an angle, this will happen on a flat earth also. You just need the geometry to produce a shallow enough angle.

In either case, that type of refraction (toward the earth) will also push the sun to appear higher, not lower. On a globe, it's said the sun at sunset is a whole width higher than it is astronomically due to this atmospheric refractive effect. That means when you see the sun touch down on an sea horizon, its geometric position is actually completely below the horizon. It is this same rationale for why globe earth curvature calculators must take into consideration standard atmospheric refraction and not rely on mere geometric calculation. Light refracts to follow the curve, making things appear above the horizon that might otherwise be obscured were it not for the atmosphere.

Now, as for refraction in the opposite direction:



Without explaining how it works, "refraction" has been cited by FE proponents to explain how a sun that is actually remaining overhead but receding into the distance over a flat earth can appear to descend to the horizon. In order for that to be true, the light from the sun must curve away from the flat surface of earth. If it's actually refraction doing that, then that means the upper layers of the atmolayer must be denser than the lower elevations.  That may be true in isolated, transient and non-standard conditions but isn't typical; certainly not standard enough to consistently produce a setting sun day in and day out.

Additionally, even if one claims that the atmolayer actually is causing light to bend upward, remember that the prism effect would cause greens to refract more and reds less, but because the direction is reversed, so is the fringing on the sun and the green rim would be on the bottom of the setting sun, not the top.

The same reasoning applies regardless of what's causing the bending. If it's EAT, then EAT will affect the shorter wavelengths slightly more than the longer wavelengths and produce a bottom-limb green fringe too vice the upper-limb "green flash" we can observe.

(Edit: thinking on this a bit, I realize now that EAT makes no such commitment. Just because refractive "bending" affects shorter wavelengths more than longer wavelengths doesn't mean that that is necessarily true if EA is doing the bending. There's a reason why it is true of refraction in optics, but given that EA is based on dark energy concepts and has -- for 10 years now -- remained an untested and still developmental hypothesis, I suppose that assuming that the "bendy" influence would have a dispersive effect similar to refraction might not be a sound one. It might help to know how the equation was derived to know if there's any wavelength, frequency or energy dependency on the amount of x-y "bending." This is just occurring to me.)

My argument is that this is one of the ways to zetetically determine whether or not EAT (or upward refraction) is causing the sun to appear to set; unless, of course, there is some other explanation for the prismatic effect on the sun that hasn't been discovered yet. But it can't be the same as the explanation used in a globe earth without undermining any light-bending-upwards explanations to explain how the sun can appear lower than it actually is.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 12:22:41 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Green Flash
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2018, 07:28:12 AM »
I can find a picture showing blue or even violet.

Quite the coincidence: San Diego photographer Jim Grant posted a "blue flash" photo on Twitter just a few hours ago:



It seems to me many of his sunset and sunrise images are color-corrected and enhanced, which may have brought out the blue more this image. But whatever he does in post edit, I don't think it would have turned a green flash to blue. There are other examples searchable online. This one just happened to show up in my feed in timely fashion.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 08:10:48 AM by Bobby Shafto »