#### iamcpc

• 832
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #220 on: May 14, 2020, 03:46:11 PM »
I've got no way of measuring a turbine blade to 5/millionth of a millimeter

That's funny because, per the video I linked before, we had figured out ways to measure to one millionth of an inch over a hundred years ago.

On a similar note, I've got an apple in a fruit-bowl; one apple.  I add a second apple.  How many apples in the bowl?

Two apples

Well, while I was picking the second apple, bacteria started reacting on the first apple and decay set in so, I've probably got 1.9999999995 apples.

If you said there are two apples and decay and bacteria have removed .0000000005 apples. How many apples are left then the correct answer would be 1.9999999995 apples

#### ChrisTP

• 926
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #221 on: May 14, 2020, 03:56:48 PM »
At this point you're arguing the utility of every digital calculator, which IMO is pretty futile and really beside the point. I'm not sure why you're doubling down on this.  The real question you should be asking yourself no is why you're bothered about such a tiny error introduced when a computer is crunching numbers compared to the extremely large error that would be if the map wasn't based on a globe...
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

#### DuncanDoenitz

• 403
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #222 on: May 14, 2020, 06:21:02 PM »
Your're missing the point IAMCPC.  "WE" have the ability to split the atom and do brain surgery, but "I" do not,  and it doesn't matter, because "I" don't need to spit atoms or operate on brains.

Similarly, I agree that "WE" can measure a zillionth of an inch, but "I" can't, and it doesn't matter, because "I" am doing engineering on jet engines in the real world and they don't need that level of accuracy, a claim made by you which is incorrect.

#### iamcpc

• 832
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2020, 02:32:53 PM »
"I" am doing engineering on jet engines in the real world and they don't need that level of accuracy, a claim made by you which is incorrect.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the building of modern jet engines requires less accurate measurements than what they were doing in the 1800's? I find a claim like that rather hard to believe and was unable to find any evidence to support or refute it online.

The real question you should be asking yourself no is why you're bothered about such a tiny error introduced

First off I'm not bothered by it. I'm pointing out that there is some part of the Bing API which is unknown or unclear.

I'm holding this up to the scrutiny of a first grade math teacher putting a red check next to the answer 1.999999999995 in the blank of 1+1 = __________. I don't think that's unreasonable
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 02:35:55 PM by iamcpc »

#### ChrisTP

• 926
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2020, 06:24:47 PM »
It was explained in this thread so it's not an unknown or unclear problem

While it's not unreasonable of you to be holding up the scrutiny of 1+1=anything but 2, it's just not the same scenario.

To put this to an example that isn't apples, I'm going to assume you have a desk for you computer, if you use a measuring tape or something and measure your desk, whats your answer? Well whatever it is, it's wrong because in reality whatever number you just gave to yourself there is not going to be the exact answer. Just like how if some guy asked for directions one day and I say "oh yea, go 5 miles and you'll come to the exit off to that road" etc etc is also wrong by your standard, because it could well have been 5.000000239237645391 miles (sorry Pete don't ban me) are you suddenly going to assume that the distance is unknown? Am I lying? can you never trust me with directions again? Or is that pretty solid directions?

Lets use another example and assume that google maps or bing is super accurate and you want to walk exactly 5 miles. You follow the directions given and stop when your phone says you're there at your destination 5 miles away from your starting position. Well, you aren't because you took half a step extra over the distance it gave. Now you've walked an unknown distance in your standards... Seems like a strange standard to have
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

#### DuncanDoenitz

• 403
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #225 on: May 15, 2020, 07:06:07 PM »
"I" am doing engineering on jet engines in the real world and they don't need that level of accuracy, a claim made by you which is incorrect.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the building of modern jet engines requires less accurate measurements than what they were doing in the 1800's? I find a claim like that rather hard to believe and was unable to find any evidence to support or refute it online.

You won't find it on-line because its Commercial-in-Confidence Maintenance data from the manufacturer.

But why would you think that all technical progress depends purely on the ability to measure increasingly long decimal fractions?  Since its the example you raised, do you know how the gap between turbine rotor blade tips and the enclosing stator is generally measured in service?  Laser? Photon particle accelerator?

No.  We normally use feeler gauges, like Henry Ford used to set up the spark plugs on his Model T.  Do you know how we ensure that the flying control range of movement is correct on a business aircraft?  We use a protractor.  Or a ruler.

You really need to consider whether the level of precision you're claiming, in any field of technology (in the real world) is going to be robust enough to survive erosion, temperature change, contamination, and simply surviving transit from where its made to where its employed.

I don't doubt that there are some engineering technologies that are designed, manufactured and maintained to higher tolerances, but don't quote turbine engine blades as an example when you clearly have no knowledge of the subject or data sources yourself.  Perhaps you could provide an example, with sources, from your own field of technical expertise, not just something you read on the internet.

#### ImAnEngineerToo

• 88
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #226 on: May 15, 2020, 08:57:39 PM »
I’m not shocked to come back to this thread to find it has eroded from deciding whether or not plane tickets are real all the way down to arguing over the validity of google/bing maps api code, with the flaw being it does not calculate distance by the picometer. In the real world, estimates are made. The only time estimates might not be made are in labs, if even.

Better estimates were made in google maps than are currently being made by flat earthers’ maps, and the whole point of this thread originally was to use the fact that the airline industry offers flights that travel under certain times over certain terrain that would confirm the idea that the round earth “theory” (or we can relate it to the round earth estimates made by google/bing) has better estimates of the REAL distances than the flat earth theory. As a matter of fact, one could use all of the flight data offered by the airliner companies to plot the shape of the earth, it wouldn’t be that hard actually. Because you could do this, and you would end up with a ball, you would not be able to come up with anything else like, say, a pancake, or a concave dome or whatever.

#### Nosmo

• 7
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #227 on: May 15, 2020, 11:26:07 PM »

Second off small distances do matter.
There is an entire branch of science called metrology dedicated to precise measurements measuring to the milliong/billionth of an inch actually is important and matters from things like nano technology, computer processors, or the precision engineering needed in a modern jet engine where, if one blade is long by .00000005 CM and another blade is short by .00000005 CM the entire engine would either not function or function much less efficiently.

"I" am doing engineering on jet engines in the real world and they don't need that level of accuracy, a claim made by you which is incorrect.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the building of modern jet engines requires less accurate measurements than what they were doing in the 1800's? I find a claim like that rather hard to believe and was unable to find any evidence to support or refute it online.

So lets see. You made a claim about the precision required in modern jet engines, and when called out on it claim you can find no evidence to support or refute it online.
I guess that makes your initial statement a baseless claim.

The Whitworth video was very interesting, and his measuring machine is truly marvelous. It however is still not capable of measuring the differences you are referring to.

#### ImAnEngineerToo

• 88
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #228 on: May 16, 2020, 06:30:55 PM »
I can’t really help out Duncan here but I happen to work on F35s and after everything is manufactured, the quality group uses lasers and scanners to chisel down the frame to a ten thousand of an inch of tolerance. I don’t work with that group much and f35 engines are outsourced, but I can tell you the tolerances at least on modern fighters are super tight. They are not 1/inf though, but nothing can be toleranced perfectly because of the way metal and any materials are structured and the way they will weather and deteriorate on the vehicle or anything made with it. Perfection is something you only hear about in coursework, but it’s not a real world thing. Theoretically, we can speak of perfection, but in the real world, like we are speaking of now, it’s best to understand when we say “10 meters” we implicitly understand that’s “10 meters +/-1cm”. All things are this way, including googles api code for their maps.

#### iamcpc

• 832
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #229 on: May 18, 2020, 07:59:32 PM »
I’m not shocked to come back to this thread to find it has eroded from deciding whether or not plane tickets are real

Well the conversation really should have been over when I posted the results from the plane flight super thread earlier on. I felt that answered pretty much all of the questions/issues with how flight times/distances don't support the flat circle model. If that's not enough then there are other forums in which a more active member claimed in regard to southern hemisphere flights which weaken the flat circle model:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2046469#msg2046469

"This flight has never been existed."

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2044714#msg2044714
"Don't trust  aircraft companies such as Qantas and Latam by their claims about flight times. These are liars."

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2045126#msg2045126
"If you find a video show full flight of a travel between Chile and Australia, then there will be a possiblity that path it exist."
-These flights only exist if you can produce a full video of the entire flight.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2045413#msg2045413
-flying from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14 hours is impossible

There is a whole array of responses from many different view points about the whole flight times/paths/distances don't support the flat circle north pole center model. My response is that I believe these flights are real and that they weaken the flat circle north pole center model. The question was asked, dozens of possible answers were given. End of discussion.

#### robinofloxley

• 203
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #230 on: May 19, 2020, 03:35:42 PM »
I’m not shocked to come back to this thread to find it has eroded from deciding whether or not plane tickets are real

Well the conversation really should have been over when I posted the results from the plane flight super thread earlier on. I felt that answered pretty much all of the questions/issues with how flight times/distances don't support the flat circle model. If that's not enough then there are other forums in which a more active member claimed in regard to southern hemisphere flights which weaken the flat circle model:

There is a whole array of responses from many different view points about the whole flight times/paths/distances don't support the flat circle north pole center model. My response is that I believe these flights are real and that they weaken the flat circle north pole center model. The question was asked, dozens of possible answers were given. End of discussion.

I looked at the plane flight super thread links you posted soon after you posted them. At the time I don't think you actually said what your position was, just that the question had been discussed at length. Pretty much all of the links you posted seemed to be Tom Bishop saying something and everybody else saying "no that's wrong", so I didn't get a clear picture from that what your position was and what I was supposed to conclude from the super thread, other than there was no agreement reached (hardly a surprise).

To be honest, your position confuses me a lot. You seem to sit very much on the fence, sometimes appearing to side with flat earth and sometimes not. Even after all this time, I really have no idea what shape you would pick for the earth if you had to pick one.

#### iamcpc

• 832
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #231 on: May 19, 2020, 04:55:02 PM »
I looked at the plane flight super thread links you posted soon after you posted them. At the time I don't think you actually said what your position was, just that the question had been discussed at length. Pretty much all of the links you posted seemed to be Tom Bishop saying something and everybody else saying "no that's wrong", so I didn't get a clear picture from that what your position was and what I was supposed to conclude from the super thread, other than there was no agreement reached (hardly a surprise).

To be honest, your position confuses me a lot. You seem to sit very much on the fence, sometimes appearing to side with flat earth and sometimes not. Even after all this time, I really have no idea what shape you would pick for the earth if you had to pick one.

I've explained this many many times and I'll explain it again. This is not a binary situation. You don't fall into two categories in which one person is 100% certain the earth is a sphere and one person is 100% certain that the earth is not a sphere. Tom Bishop for instance might bet 90% certain that the earth is not a sphere. You might be 95% certain that the earth is a sphere.

I'm a little more unique because I'm not as high of a percent that the earth is flat as other people here. I'm able to acknowledge there are huge holes in the FE models and no one model is able to explain things as thoroughly as I feel the RE model does. Based on my observations, if the earth was flat, i don't think it would be shaped like a flat disk and it would function more as an omnidrectional treadmill. I'm also able to admit that the FE idea does have some observations and thought experiments which make sense. I'm also also able to acknowledge that rebuttals for most of those observations and ideas were also presented.

In terms of these flights I believe that they are real, that we know the flight times, flight speeds, and flight paths. Because I believe these things these flight paths, in my opinion, provide overpowering evidence that any FE models in which the earth is shaped like a circle are most likely inaccurate.

#### Regicide

##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #232 on: May 24, 2020, 10:35:48 PM »
I have had experiences traveling from Sydney to Dallas and back on Quantas Flight 7/8. Probably made the trip 7 times, was never once moved to a non continuous flight. The distance on an FE map from Sydney to Dallas is 17,181 km, while only being 13,808 km on an RE map. For the Airbus A380 to make the flight in the typical 15.25 hours, it would need to travel at Mach 0.92 for the FE distance and only Mach 0.75 for the RE distance. Given the average cruising speed of an Airbus A380 is Mach 0.85, it is difficult to see how it could make the flight consistently coming in at 15.25 hours if the FE model is to be accepted. I'll acknowledge that the Airbus A380 once reached Mach 0.98- however, that was in a full dive. The A380's maximum operating speed is Mach 0.89. Any explanations?

#### iamcpc

• 832
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #233 on: May 26, 2020, 01:41:40 PM »
I have had experiences traveling from Sydney to Dallas and back on Quantas Flight 7/8. Probably made the trip 7 times, was never once moved to a non continuous flight. The distance on an FE map from Sydney to Dallas is 17,181 km, while only being 13,808 km on an RE map. For the Airbus A380 to make the flight in the typical 15.25 hours, it would need to travel at Mach 0.92 for the FE distance and only Mach 0.75 for the RE distance. Given the average cruising speed of an Airbus A380 is Mach 0.85, it is difficult to see how it could make the flight consistently coming in at 15.25 hours if the FE model is to be accepted. I'll acknowledge that the Airbus A380 once reached Mach 0.98- however, that was in a full dive. The A380's maximum operating speed is Mach 0.89. Any explanations?

There are many different FE models and, according to the different FE models, the reason why the observed flight paths/times/distances don't match the predicted flight paths/times/distances are different. Dozens of reasons why have been listed on this thread already.

Here's a link from this thread:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15877.msg204803#msg204803

and another one from this thread:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15877.msg212388#msg212388

#### DanAlex

• 4
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #234 on: June 16, 2020, 01:31:32 PM »
I’m not shocked to come back to this thread to find it has eroded from deciding whether or not plane tickets are real

Well the conversation really should have been over when I posted the results from the plane flight super thread earlier on. I felt that answered pretty much all of the questions/issues with how flight times/distances don't support the flat circle model. If that's not enough then there are other forums in which a more active member claimed in regard to southern hemisphere flights which weaken the flat circle model:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2046469#msg2046469

"This flight has never been existed."

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2044714#msg2044714
"Don't trust  aircraft companies such as Qantas and Latam by their claims about flight times. These are liars."

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2045126#msg2045126
"If you find a video show full flight of a travel between Chile and Australia, then there will be a possiblity that path it exist."
-These flights only exist if you can produce a full video of the entire flight.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74707.msg2045413#msg2045413
-flying from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14 hours is impossible

There is a whole array of responses from many different view points about the whole flight times/paths/distances don't support the flat circle north pole center model. My response is that I believe these flights are real and that they weaken the flat circle north pole center model. The question was asked, dozens of possible answers were given. End of discussion.

I challenge IAMCPC:

Northern hemisphere - Seoul, NORTH KOREA  to New York, USA - 14 hours (7000 miles) direct flight.

Southern hemisphere  - Sydney, AUSTRALIA to Santiago, CHILE - 14 hours (7000 miles) direct flight.

Best,

#### iamcpc

• 832
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #235 on: June 16, 2020, 05:39:59 PM »

I challenge IAMCPC:

Northern hemisphere - Seoul, NORTH KOREA  to New York, USA - 14 hours (7000 miles) direct flight.

Southern hemisphere  - Sydney, AUSTRALIA to Santiago, CHILE - 14 hours (7000 miles) direct flight.

Best,
One of the rebuttals was the claim that, without the entire flight being documented and video taped, they would not be acknowledged as real.

The videos you have sent claim to be of long flights but the videos only last like 20-30 mins and are very clearly many different shots being edited together instead of one continuous shot.

This thread was started as an inquiry to the possible rebuttals to the claim that these flights significantly weaken most of the dinner plate shaped FE models. I have given dozens of possible rebuttals even though some of them I disagree with.

Please read my post below. I have highlighted my response to the claim that these flights significantly weaken most of the dinner plate shaped FE models below:

There is a whole array of responses from many different view points about the whole flight times/paths/distances don't support the flat circle north pole center model. My response is that I believe these flights are real and that they weaken the flat circle north pole center model.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 05:46:33 PM by iamcpc »

#### Cocopuff

• 11
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #236 on: July 10, 2020, 10:56:09 AM »
I love the "air refueling" theory.  Show me where on the 787 the refueling hose goes in.  Better yet, explain how a flight distance on a FE which should take more than 24 hours, is accomplished in 13 hours, and why air refueling would be necessary.  The 787 has an 8,000 nautical mile range which I more than enough to get from Sydney to Santiago on a round Earth, however, no way it will make it in 13 hrs on a FE...

#### DuncanDoenitz

• 403
##### Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #237 on: July 10, 2020, 11:52:19 AM »
As an aircraft engineer, I can tell you that no civil airliner comes off the production line with air-to-air refuelling (AAR) capability.  Some have been modified for use by the military (eg the VC-25 and E-4 Boeing 747s) but its hugely expensive and a technical challenge; the receptacle has to be on the top of the fuselage, and the fuel tanks are in the wings, so the plumbing has to be through the passenger compartment.  Safety regulation authorities would have a fit.

On top of that is the economics.  You buy a ticket for a (say) 200-passenger flight, you are paying a 200th part of the costs of purchase, maintenance, fuel, crew and catering of your plane, plus a profit margin.

Throw in AAR and your ticket price is the same PLUS 200th of the costs of purchase, maintenance, and crew of the refuelling plane PLUS the costs of the extra fuel you take on, PLUS the fuel to get the refueller to the rendezvous and back.  And another profit margin.

Now Michael O'Leary is also having a fit.