2101

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 04:41:01 PM »

My mate just set up his own business and made his first sale today. We must adjourn as it is beer o'clock on this side of the disc. 

2102

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 04:25:27 PM »

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

Can you just answer the question? Do you agree with the following (you seem to agree, but you are also hedging)?

1. Sun must apparently advance constantly at 15 degrees per hour everywhere and always on a Round Earth.
2. Sun cannot apparently advance constantly at 15 degrees per hour everywhere and always on a Flat Earth.

1. 15 degrees around a circle from the north pole - yes. Not 15 degrees across the sky. One is lateral, the other has components of lateral and vertical. Azimuth if you like.
2. It certainly will be 15 degrees at the north pole where the sun's distance is always equal from you on a flat earth. Not anywhere else. This is the problem round earth has. the sun should always be 93 million miles from you on a round earth. You can't claim the slant angle to explain the twilight times observed. Flat earth has it covered because it is the superior theory.

2103

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: The only Embassy in Jeruselum

« on: December 20, 2017, 04:19:15 PM »

I don't think Trump has heard of 'status quo'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_(Israel)

2104

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 04:15:06 PM »

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

2105

Flat Earth Theory / Re: What makes the Earth so special?

« on: December 20, 2017, 04:10:44 PM »

So the Earth is flat. But almost every other natural celestial body is spherical. What makes the Earth the only unique one?

So the earth has life on it. But almost^[sic] every other natural celestial body has none. What makes the Earth the only unique one?


Earth is special. The centre of the universe, the focus of the heavens and the spawning ground for intelligent life. Why are you under the impression earth isn't special? One could infer flatness is a prerequisite for life. It has not been possible on any balls we observe.

2106

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 04:06:44 PM »

If you want to make another thread about latitude, please do so. This one is about sundials and belongs to flat earth now.

Seeing as latitude is integral to the accuracy of many types of sundials, it is entirely appropriate to bring up.

To bring it up yes, to want to discuss how latitude works on a flat earth is another topic. You have to accept that is does work in this thread so we can work on sundials. If you wish to abandon sundials as you believe the real proof lies in latitude, that's a separate thread.

Latitude does work on a flat earth. Please look at the map in our FAQ.

Incorrect.  Either the sun's altitude fluctuates based on your latitude, which is nonsensical, or the distance between latitude lines varies which is does not agree with real life navigation.

Pretty sure the sun's altitude (read declination) does fluctuate depending on your latitude. The distance between lines of latitude do not vary on a flat earth. Again I refer you to the FAQ map and a new thread about latitude.

Apology accepted.

An odd way to apologize for misreading another statement's and intent, but I'll take what I can get.

Reminder, looking for hard proof for the sun moving at 15° degrees an hour along the solar ecliptic, different than the vertical ecliptic mentioned/referenced by Thork earlier in the thread. Having a small touch of trouble as he doesn't seem ready to accept the special build sundial posted by Jocelyn.

I was the one looking for hard proof. The real world times between the various degrees of twilight blew that round earth assumption apart. I was left wanting though. 

2107

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:44:08 PM »

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again.

Polar axis sundials were brought in specifically to rebut your claims about the hourly 15^o movement of the sun.

We have poles on a flat earth to. All you are doing is aligning north south and angling based on your latitude (sun slant from the equator).  Flat earth has no issue with sundials like this, any more than round earth has an issue with flat sundials. It is just reverse two-way geometry.

As has been simply demonstrated elsewhere, latitude doesn't work on a FE.  Either the latitude lines change distance from one another or the sun's altitude changes radically based on your latitude.  Both of these cases are easily shown not to be the case by simple observation and simple logic.

Latitude does work on a flat earth. Please look at the map in our FAQ. If you want to make another thread about latitude, please do so. This one is about sundials and belongs to flat earth now.

2108

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:32:14 PM »

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again.

Polar axis sundials were brought in specifically to rebut your claims about the hourly 15^o movement of the sun.

We have poles on a flat earth to. All you are doing is aligning north south and angling based on your latitude (sun slant from the equator).  Flat earth has no issue with sundials like this, any more than round earth has an issue with flat sundials. It is just reverse two-way geometry.

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

You really are when you don't bother to actually *read* what I said. Bolded the relevant bits in the earlier post and helpfully linked to what I'm talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Modern_dialing

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again. The thing about rainbows is every time you get closer to them, they move away from you. Stop with your rainbow reasoning.

Oh I've read the whole thing. You were discussing there how sundials needed to be adjusted based on location/coordinates. Which is ONLY true of polar axis, even hour sundials. You made a reference to if 'the ancients' were using equations relating to the movement of the sun/earth system. I was pointing out that 'the ancients' didn't use sundials that required such information, and they were in fact not in use until nearly 1400. Not sure how that's 'moving the goalposts' but ok.

Apology accepted.

2109

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:20:18 PM »

Well it turns out flat sundials work too. What we have here is round earther's trying to cheat a win so as they can maintain their normalisation bias. Basically more of the blue pill.

I will use a flat "sundial" today at my house and run the JocelynSachs experiment. Will you?

No. https://darksky.net/details/51.5085,-0.1257/2017-12-20/us12/en

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

You really are when you don't bother to actually *read* what I said. Bolded the relevant bits in the earlier post and helpfully linked to what I'm talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Modern_dialing

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again. The thing about rainbows is every time you get closer to them, they move away from you. Stop with your rainbow reasoning.

2110

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:11:24 PM »

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

No but they also weren’t traveling all over the world were they?  Are you disputing that the gnomon on a sundial must be adjusted for latitude? Are you aware that the eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit cause predictable errors in sundials based on a heliocentric model of the solar system and General Relativity?

I already said, flat sundials need to be calibrated, just as globe ones do. What point are you trying to make?

That sundials work based on the Earth being a globe, as I have explicitly stated.

Prove it.

2111

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:09:06 PM »

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

No but they also weren’t traveling all over the world were they?  Are you disputing that the gnomon on a sundial must be adjusted for latitude? Are you aware that the eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit cause predictable errors in sundials based on a heliocentric model of the solar system and General Relativity?

I already said, flat sundials need to be calibrated, just as globe ones do. What point are you trying to make?

2112

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:05:28 PM »

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

2113

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 03:00:30 PM »

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

2114

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 02:53:25 PM »

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread. And they aren't calibrated with a globe earth. They are aligned with the path of the sun from your position on earth. An important distinction.

So, I know I'm digging back into this thread a fair bit, but I just had a thought, verified it, and would like to present it quick. Southern hemisphere sundials DO go backwards.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Sundial_in_Supreme_Court_Gardens%2C_Perth.jpg
This image is large and it feels smarter to link directly to it instead of putting it inline, so that people can see it at full size with no issues. Make sure to zoom in and look at the numbers going in the other direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Sundials_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere

So the basis of your entire objection is faulty.

I told you that. My point was that the Southern hemisphere doesn't use clocks that go backwards as you'd expect on a round earth for precisely that reason.

2115

Flat Earth Community / Re: Help this student understand the society!

« on: December 20, 2017, 02:42:33 PM »

Your first question is "What is the highest form of education you enjoyed?"

My answer to that is nursery. After the potato painting was over, school became a bit of a chore.

Why would you set out to try and pigeon hole flat earther's as stupid and ill-educated and then expect co-operation in your survey? The survey is already loaded, from the off. That isn't going to tell you anything about the society.

You are also looking for quantitative data. Not qualitative. Lots of people answering a few facile questions. How is that going to tell you things you have no idea about for the flat earth society? More interesting questions involve what religion do you subscribe to? Historically in polls we have conducted, Deism always comes out on top here, with atheism second and so on. I would think that in itself would lead to all kinds of questions about the mindset and convictions of flat earthers. Deism isn't exactly an off-the shelf religion and you don't meet many Deists in your local Walmart. Why is it the most prevalent religion in this society?

2116

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 02:13:43 PM »

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

2117

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Questions on the FET

« on: December 20, 2017, 01:56:51 PM »

Sigh, I didn't think I would have to spell this out to someone with your level of "experience". Let's start with the FAA's definition of SnL which is maintaining heading and altitude. So again, where is your nose pointing?

Absolutely dead straight so as you maintain a constant altitude above the beautiful flat earth.

You didn't answer my question for the 1g barrel roll having asserted the definition of straight and level flight being maintaining 1g. Where does your nose point in a barrel roll please? Or will you be gracious enough to admit you were wrong?

Yeah, you're not a pilot.

I already addressed that - I assumed you were experienced enough to know the definition of SnL without me having to be that specific. I was wrong.

I asked you to be specific so as I knew that you knew the definition. Turns out you didn't.



Here's my credentials. Class one medical and my license to kill. Note the colour of my license book. Blue. So again, what is your experience? You keep questioning mine.

2118

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 01:35:34 PM »

So you don't want to use a flat sundial that represents a flat earth. You want to use a globe shaped sundial representing a globe shaped earth. Can we load the deck in your favour any more do you think?

We want to use the sundial that works best. It happens to be a globe.  But yes, the deck is also completely in our favor. Sorry! You lose!

Well it turns out flat sundials work too. What we have here is round earther's trying to cheat a win so as they can maintain their normalisation bias. Basically more of the blue pill.

2119

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Questions on the FET

« on: December 20, 2017, 01:17:14 PM »

Sigh, I didn't think I would have to spell this out to someone with your level of "experience". Let's start with the FAA's definition of SnL which is maintaining heading and altitude. So again, where is your nose pointing?

Absolutely dead straight so as you maintain a constant altitude above the beautiful flat earth.

You didn't answer my question for the 1g barrel roll having asserted the definition of straight and level flight being maintaining 1g. Where does your nose point in a barrel roll please? Or will you be gracious enough to admit you were wrong?

2120

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Sundial

« on: December 20, 2017, 01:09:57 PM »

So you don't want to use a flat sundial that represents a flat earth. You want to use a globe shaped sundial representing a globe shaped earth. Can we load the deck in your favour any more do you think?