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Offline xasop

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Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« on: September 01, 2015, 08:55:17 AM »
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-28/operation-fortitude-cancelled/6733008

The Abbott Government now considers it perfectly reasonable to walk up to people on the street and demand that they produce their papers.

That sentence says it all, really. This only got cancelled because of mass public outrage. One can only hope that translates into lost votes for the Coalition.
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Thork

Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 09:53:37 AM »
Extremist Left-wing Liberal's waving the Nazi card again. ::)

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Offline xasop

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 09:41:39 PM »
Extremist Left-wing Liberal's waving the Nazi card again. ::)

Irrelevant.
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 09:56:47 PM »
The police have the authority to do that here in America too. The probable cause clause can include pretty much anything, apparently. Even standing by your car in front of your own house, on your phone, in broad daylight warrants an ID check. At least, that's what happened to me once.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 09:58:45 PM by Hollocron »

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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 02:33:15 AM »
The police have the authority to do that here in America too. The probable cause clause can include pretty much anything, apparently. Even standing by your car in front of your own house, on your phone, in broad daylight warrants an ID check. At least, that's what happened to me once.
That should not happen to white people.
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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 11:35:56 AM »
And what is wrong with the Government wanting to know if you have the legal right to reside in Australia? If you have your papers, produce them, and you have nothing to fear. If you don't, be prepared to be on the next boat out, back to whatever pit of wrath you came from.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 01:33:21 PM »
And what is wrong with the Government wanting to know if you have the legal right to reside in Australia? If you have your papers, produce them, and you have nothing to fear. If you don't, be prepared to be on the next boat out, back to whatever pit of wrath you came from.

Governments and laws do not exist for their own sake, but to uphold the rights and liberties of their people. Any law enforcement beyond that scope is unwarranted. Put another way, the government should be accountable to its citizens, not vice versa.

I have no problem with deporting criminals or troublemakers who are found to be illegal immigrants. If they've come here illegally and are costing society more than they contribute, send them away. However, actively interrogating people who are otherwise productive members of society, especially in a situation where many legal permanent residents would not be carrying proof of residence, is simply a waste of taxpayer money and an affront to liberty.

This proposal is a manifestation of the Abbott government's dogmatic xenophobia, nothing more.
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Offline jroa

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2015, 02:13:28 PM »
And what is wrong with the Government wanting to know if you have the legal right to reside in Australia? If you have your papers, produce them, and you have nothing to fear. If you don't, be prepared to be on the next boat out, back to whatever pit of wrath you came from.

A little ironic, coming from a Jew, is it not? 

Saddam Hussein

Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2015, 05:14:11 PM »
Oh, great, another Yaakov thread.  We really needed another one of these.

Oy vey, I'm such a Jew!  Look at my large and pointy nose!  Yiddish and shekels!  Jewy Jewy Jew Jew!

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2015, 05:54:12 PM »
And what is wrong with the Government wanting to know if you have the legal right to reside in Australia? If you have your papers, produce them, and you have nothing to fear. If you don't, be prepared to be on the next boat out, back to whatever pit of wrath you came from.

Governments and laws do not exist for their own sake, but to uphold the rights and liberties of their people. Any law enforcement beyond that scope is unwarranted. Put another way, the government should be accountable to its citizens, not vice versa.

I have no problem with deporting criminals or troublemakers who are found to be illegal immigrants. If they've come here illegally and are costing society more than they contribute, send them away. However, actively interrogating people who are otherwise productive members of society, especially in a situation where many legal permanent residents would not be carrying proof of residence, is simply a waste of taxpayer money and an affront to liberty.

This proposal is a manifestation of the Abbott government's dogmatic xenophobia, nothing more.

Then require EVERYBODY to carry proof of residence, like many countries do.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2015, 07:54:14 AM »
Then require EVERYBODY to carry proof of residence, like many countries do.

That is a further affront to liberty, and doesn't even begin to address the main point of contention.

Until it can be shown that this form of enforcement is of net benefit to the people -- that is, that the benefits it provides are in excess of the cost of having officials patrolling the streets, the cost of lost productivity from wasting people's time, and the cost of deporting illegal immigrants who have committed no other crimes -- I will continue to oppose it. Get a warrant if you want to check my papers.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:57:08 AM by Parsifal »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2015, 09:53:51 AM »
the cost of deporting illegal immigrants who have committed no other crimes
Are you effectively advocating for the decriminalisation of illegal immigration?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2015, 10:10:10 AM »
the cost of deporting illegal immigrants who have committed no other crimes
Are you effectively advocating for the decriminalisation of illegal immigration?

Not exactly; I think that law needs to be enforceable in cases where illegal immigrants commit crimes or are a drain on the nation's economy. I just think it's pointless to enforce if immigrants are doing nothing but being productive members of society.

Ultimately, my preference would be to make it a lot easier for immigrants to get into the country legally (I quite like Leyonhjelm's proposal to charge a flat fee for entry), but until that happens, I will oppose any unnecessary enforcement of the current laws.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2015, 10:19:30 AM »
It's a common argument that illegal immigrants, as a whole, are a drain on their host nations' economies. Do you think it's possible to successfully divide them into categories, given that their very nature is that they're undocumented and it's not easy to pull out any records on them?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Random visa checks in Melbourne cancelled due to protests
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2015, 10:52:35 AM »
It's a common argument that illegal immigrants, as a whole, are a drain on their host nations' economies. Do you think it's possible to successfully divide them into categories, given that their very nature is that they're undocumented and it's not easy to pull out any records on them?

No, and I can see how what I said might have been somewhat unclear. I'm not suggesting that we don't prosecute people who are found to be illegal immigrants based on information procured with a warrant. I'm suggesting we don't go out of our way to look for them without due cause for suspicion; in effect, treating all illegal aliens the same way, regardless of whether they do anything to attract negative attention.

The reason why I included the cost of deportation in my list of costs to weigh any benefits against is that, significant or not, it is part of the net cost. If it were the only cost, then it would become easier to justify deportation, as the situation would be following issue of a warrant. But it's not, and the total cost of the operation needs to be weighed against any benefit to society.

Until that justification can be made, my default position is to support government inaction -- the government should not take poorly justified action just because there is no better option. There is no mandate that the government be involved in every aspect of society. The widespread belief otherwise is one of the biggest problems with modern Australia.

As I said, I think the best permanent solution is to make it easier to enter the country legally. By removing the incentive for people to sneak in, immigrants become better documented and thus better understood, and their income becomes taxable. We certainly shouldn't be making up for our supremely overcomplicated immigration process with supremely overpowered policing.
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