The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Cocopuff on December 31, 2018, 06:43:25 PM

Title: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Cocopuff on December 31, 2018, 06:43:25 PM
That is what my sister tells me.  I decided to use some basic math and see for myself. 

Hopefully you all know what a right triangle is.  It has a 90 degree angle, and it is a unique triangle in that if you are given one of the acute angles (one of the other 2 angles less than 90 degrees) and the length of a side, you can determine the length of the other sides using basic geometry. 

Here is a right triangle:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_triangle#/media/File:Rtriangle.svg

Now pretend on this triangle that at points A and C, you and a friend are standing on the Earth's surface.  Point B is the "alleged" ISS light in the sky.  There are many websites such as HeavensAbove.com that will show, when you input your location, information about ISS sightings, such as how high in the sky it will appear, and when.  Using this information, and a little patience, you can find a location in the US where the ISS is flying directly overhead--exactly 90 degrees overhead.  Let me know if you have trouble and I can talk you through it.

This point where ISS is directly overhead, 90 degrees, is point C.  Now you go there, and send your friend to a location 50-250 miles away.  According to the website, it will tell you from this second site, A, how high in the sky you will see the ISS.  This will be in a maximum height in degrees.  Find a location A where the highest ISS angle in the sky occurs at the exact same time (within a few seconds) as the direct overhead pass at point C.  Now you have your right triangle, with 2 givens--the distance between the 2 locations, b, and angle A.  When you see the ISS at point A, you can confirm that it is at the advertised angle.  You can now calculate the approximate height of the ISS, side a.  According to my calculations, and I have done this multiple times, the height of the ISS light is approximately 235 miles above the Earth's surface.  Yes, 235 miles.

I guess if you doubted there were maybe multiple flying objects in the sky, you could always get other friends to go to locations along line b in between A and C and confirm that they are not seeing 2 (or more ) objects in the sky at the same time. 

The interesting thing is that at angles for A that are extreme, such as close to 10 degrees, the height of ISS seems to be lower and lower as you get further away (around 150 miles high at 10 degrees).  I couldn't understand why for the longest time, until I figured it out.  As A and C get further away, I was not taking into account the effect on the calculations due to Earth curvature.  Line b is not truly a straight line, but a curved line.  When I got into some circle math, I was able to correct for this precisely. 

I would love to hear anyone's experience with this easy experiment and simple observation. 
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: shootingstar on December 31, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
I have seen an account of this same experiment along with photos to back it up. I can't describe the experiment any better than you already have but the figures that you turn out are entirely correct.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 01, 2019, 12:29:56 AM
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Cocopuff on January 01, 2019, 12:45:17 AM
Yes and no.  With only 250 miles between the 2 people on the Earth surface, the curvature of the Earth is negligible for the purposes of this experiment.  We get "close enough" since we are merely trying to prove that the Earth is over a hundred miles high, not to the mile.  Point has been proven.  Furthermore, with the reducing height as we get to extremes of angle only further prove Earth curvature the values of which can be calculated and confirmed.  The Earth is round and the ISS is real, and over 200 miles high.   This proves it.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 01, 2019, 12:54:23 AM
Yes and no.  With only 250 miles between the 2 people on the Earth surface, the curvature of the Earth is negligible for the purposes of this experiment.  We get "close enough" since we are merely trying to prove that the Earth is over a hundred miles high, not to the mile.  Point has been proven.  Furthermore, with the reducing height as we get to extremes of angle only further prove Earth curvature the values of which can be calculated and confirmed.  The Earth is round and the ISS is real, and over 200 miles high.   This proves it.

I don't understand. So you want to do a Flat Earth experiment, but also want everyone else to suspend belief and imagine that it's a Round Earth experiment?  ???
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: stack on January 01, 2019, 01:12:25 AM
Yes and no.  With only 250 miles between the 2 people on the Earth surface, the curvature of the Earth is negligible for the purposes of this experiment.  We get "close enough" since we are merely trying to prove that the Earth is over a hundred miles high, not to the mile.  Point has been proven.  Furthermore, with the reducing height as we get to extremes of angle only further prove Earth curvature the values of which can be calculated and confirmed.  The Earth is round and the ISS is real, and over 200 miles high.   This proves it.

I don't understand. So you want to do a Flat Earth experiment, but also want everyone else to suspend belief and imagine that it's a Round Earth experiment?  ???

Here's something I've always been confused about. Does the ISS have to be fake if the earth is flat and if so, why? If the moon and sun orbit above a flat earth, why couldn't the ISS?

I know it can't be real on a flat earth b/c views from it don't bode well for FET. But putting that aside, what's stopping an object like the ISS from circling above the flat earth?
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Cocopuff on January 01, 2019, 07:21:19 AM
This is not a flat earth experiment.  This is an experiment to determine how high the ISS is.  A ancillary discovery that the earth is actually round is an added bonus...
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: shootingstar on January 01, 2019, 09:41:38 AM
The experiment I am thinking of involved someone with a telescope measuring the observed altitude of the ISS at two points on the Earths surface. The points were a known distance apart and observations took place on the same night during two successive passes. The second pass occurred 92 minutes after the first. This gave him plenty of time to move all his equipment from one location and then drive to the other and set his gear up at the second location.


He used vertical triangles with the 'opposite' side being the ISS height and the adjacent side being the distance apart of the two observing locations. He used the small angle approximation in maths and pointed out that allowance for the curvature of the Earth introduced the small uncertainty in his measurement. The purpose of the experiment wasn't to prove whether the Earth was round or flat but just to show how easily you could work out the height of the ISS or any satellite for that matter with just a simple telescope and two different observation points in his local area.  Using the same triangles as he pointed out it was easily to calculate the distance between him as the observer and the ISS itself.  A distance represented by the hypotenuse of the same triangle.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Cocopuff on January 01, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
Of course this is not a flat Earth experiment.  It is an experiment to prove the Earth is a globe and that satellites, including ISS, are real and that their altitude can be calculated.  If I made that the title of the string, though, no flatters would read...
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: shootingstar on January 01, 2019, 11:57:11 PM
My contribution to your OP is simply to back up the information you have outlined. I wish to hell I could remember where I saw the description of the experiment. Could have been online or in a magazine.

My point is that FE people simply could not come up with such accurate or comprehensive results because they rely on much simpler information. They choose to deprive themselves of all the information that is out there these days for reasons that I cannot fathom.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Cocopuff on January 02, 2019, 06:05:49 PM
This youtube video shows in excruciating detail how they calculated the distance to the ISS using similar, but way cooler information. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zejiHaRhI4
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tumeni on January 17, 2019, 12:02:52 AM
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2019, 12:13:38 AM
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.

I took a look at the shape of a triangle.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tumeni on January 17, 2019, 12:55:31 AM
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.

I took a look at the shape of a triangle.

I don't have any problem with adjusting for the arc (over the surface) and the chord (the straight line, or side of the triangle) under the arc.

Simple geometry, surely?

https://imgur.com/nSC1XYn
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2019, 02:59:28 AM
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.

I took a look at the shape of a triangle.

I don't have any problem with adjusting for the arc (over the surface) and the chord (the straight line, or side of the triangle) under the arc.

Simple geometry, surely?

https://imgur.com/nSC1XYn

If you agreed that a triangle was a flat earth, why did you bother to even post at all?
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tumeni on January 17, 2019, 07:09:50 AM
If you agreed that a triangle was a flat earth ....

I don't think I agreed that.

A triangle is a geometric shape. Formulae in geometry dictate that for every measurement across the surface or arc of a globe, the chord which links the extremities of that arc can be calculated. See Bobby Shafto's thread where he enquires about the formulae for doing so.

The poster above saying that he got, within reasonable bounds of error, the approximate height of the ISS, may well get a more exact figure by using the chord between his observers, rather than the arc.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Circularsegment.svg/257px-Circularsegment.svg.png)
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 11:18:36 AM
I don't understand.

Allow me to assist. The ISS is at an altitude of 408km. Let's say you take observations from 100km apart. That looks like this:
(https://i.ibb.co/jfBC8rR/ISS.jpg)

Aha! You say, but you have assumed a flat earth. True. BUT, the circumference of the earth is 40,075km. So 100km is a tiny fraction of that, it equates to ~0.9 degrees difference.
Enough to introduce some error, certainly. And yes you can correct for that error to get a more accurate measurement.
It doesn't completely invalidate the experiment if you don't though.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on January 17, 2019, 11:28:47 AM
Tom is only going to refute you based on his ardent loyalty to Gerrard Hickson and his book, Kings Dethroned. (Which by the way, Tom, I am still reading).
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 11:37:48 AM
Tom is only going to refute you based on his ardent loyalty to Gerrard Hickson and his book, Kings Dethroned. (Which by the way, Tom, I am still reading).
Probably, but I don't know what there is to refute here. It's just simple geometry.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: totallackey on January 17, 2019, 12:50:07 PM
I don't understand.

Allow me to assist. The ISS is at an altitude of 408km. Let's say you take observations from 100km apart. That looks like this:
(https://i.ibb.co/jfBC8rR/ISS.jpg)

Aha! You say, but you have assumed a flat earth. True. BUT, the circumference of the earth is 40,075km. So 100km is a tiny fraction of that, it equates to ~0.9 degrees difference.
Enough to introduce some error, certainly. And yes you can correct for that error to get a more accurate measurement.
It doesn't completely invalidate the experiment if you don't though.
Why would you post an isosceles triangle in a right triangle experiment?
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on January 17, 2019, 01:00:54 PM
Go look up the diurnal parallax. Its basic geometry. Wow. Do you not see two right angle triangles in that diagram?

The angle that forms between the hypotenuse and the opposite sides of the triangle is known - the angle at which you are viewing from the telescope. You can then move your apparatus to achieve the angle again from a distance moved one way or another. You then measure that distance. Divide by two. You know have a known angle and a distance with which you can use  the basic SOHCAHTOA.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 01:13:41 PM
Why would you post an isosceles triangle in a right triangle experiment?
Wht are you talking about the type of triangle when that isn't relevant to the point I'm explaining.
You could do the experiment when the ISS is at any point whether that point is between you or directly above one of you. It doesn't change my point.
This is like when you deliberately tried to put red herrings into the FE Map thread by talking about screen resolutions. I'm still waiting for the results of your tests about that...

Tom's point was the experiment pre-supposes a flat earth.
As I have explained, the earth is big. So if you're taking observations 100km apart then while yes, the curvature of the earth does introduce some error if you haven't accounted for it but the error is actually quite small. It doesn't invalidate the experiment completely if you don't but it does make it more accurate if you do.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: totallackey on January 17, 2019, 01:17:39 PM
Go look up the diurnal parallax. Its basic geometry. Wow. Do you not see two right angle triangles in that diagram?
If the center line serves as a barrier, then yes.
The angle that forms between the hypotenuse and the opposite sides of the triangle is known - the angle at which you are viewing from the telescope. You can then move your apparatus to achieve the angle again from a distance moved one way or another. You then measure that distance. Divide by two. You know have a known angle and a distance with which you can use  the basic SOHCAHTOA.
Surveyors do not need to move their view in determining altitude of an object.

Determine the distance between you and the object having an unknown altitude. Find an object of known height, placing it in such a way as the top of the object obscures the view of the object being measured.

Do the ratios and you have the altitude of the unknown object.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on January 17, 2019, 01:19:57 PM
Correct, but you are shifting context. We aren't surveyors in this example. We are referring to diurnal parallax. A method to calculate distance to far off object using geometry and trigonometry.

Side note: Are you drunk? What is "center is line..."
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: totallackey on January 17, 2019, 01:24:02 PM
Why would you post an isosceles triangle in a right triangle experiment?
Wht are you talking about the type of triangle when that isn't relevant to the point I'm explaining.
You could do the experiment when the ISS is at any point whether that point is between you or directly above one of you. It doesn't change my point.
This is like when you deliberately tried to put red herrings into the FE Map thread by talking about screen resolutions. I'm still waiting for the results of your tests about that...

Tom's point was the experiment pre-supposes a flat earth.
As I have explained, the earth is big. So if you're taking observations 100km apart then while yes, the curvature of the earth does introduce some error if you haven't accounted for it but the error is actually quite small. It doesn't invalidate the experiment completely if you don't but it does make it more accurate if you do.
You don't need your isosceles setup is the point.

All you need is the distance as measured on the ground to a point directly under the base of the object. And an object of known height. Position the object of known height so that it obscures all but the very top of the object having unknown height. Do the ratios and you have the altitude of the unknown object.

Still struggling with the screen resolution and monitor settings uh...still unable to comprehend how different resolutions render pixelation.

We will leave that to that thread though...
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 01:33:34 PM
All you need is the distance as measured on the ground to a point directly under the base of the object. And an object of known height. Position the object of known height so that it obscures all but the very top of the object having unknown height. Do the ratios and you have the altitude of the unknown object.

Correct. You can do the experiment in different ways. But all of those ways assume a flat earth, otherwise the base isn't a straight line and it isn't really a triangle.
My point was, and remains, that over distances of around 100km this doesn't actually introduce that much error into the method. But accounting for it will get you a more accurate result.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: totallackey on January 17, 2019, 04:40:09 PM
All you need is the distance as measured on the ground to a point directly under the base of the object. And an object of known height. Position the object of known height so that it obscures all but the very top of the object having unknown height. Do the ratios and you have the altitude of the unknown object.

Correct. You can do the experiment in different ways. But all of those ways assume a flat earth, otherwise the base isn't a straight line and it isn't really a triangle.
My point was, and remains, that over distances of around 100km this doesn't actually introduce that much error into the method. But accounting for it will get you a more accurate result.
You do not assume anything when it is looking exactly the way it is to your own eyes.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 06:27:35 PM
The base of the triangle is the earth. To do the calculations you are using the maths of a triangle. That maths only works if the base is flat. If the earth isn’t flat then you have to use different maths.
But, and I don’t know how else to explain this, over fairly short distances like 100km (which is less than 1% of the earth’s circumference) the error is fairly small. Ergo it doesn’t invalidate the experiment outlined in the OP.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 06:34:03 PM
I have explained it. I haven’t done the maths for you. Are you not able to maths? If not I will have a go for you later.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2019, 06:35:22 PM
I have explained it. I haven’t done the maths for you. Are you not able to maths? If not I will have a go for you later.

If you can't understand it and the error levels, the difference between a 100 mile distant object and a 200 mile distant object, then you are in no position to tell us whether it is an accurate distance or not.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Jimmy McGill on January 17, 2019, 06:57:59 PM
I have explained it. I haven’t done the maths for you. Are you not able to maths? If not I will have a go for you later.

If you can't understand it and the error levels, the difference between a 100 mile distant object and a 200 mile distant object, then you are in no position to tell us whether it is an accurate distance or not.

Tom I think it’s clear that everyone here, except perhaps you at the beginning of the conversation, understands the level of error in assuming a completely flat base for this calculation.
100km of curvature is negliblible in this experiment.
It’s an accurate distance. It’s the equivalent of going to the back yard and eyeballing a piece of lumber instead of getting it down to the exact angle you need down to the millions of an inch.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 17, 2019, 07:56:52 PM
I made a bunch of assumptions but if you’re 100km apart and the ISS was right overhead one person and the other person got an angle of 76 degrees then if you assume the earth is flat you’d get a height of 400km.

If the earth is actually a sphere and you were 100km apart and 1 degree round the circle (actually you’d be less on the earth, but for simplicity) then the radius of that globe earth would be 5729km.

The chord length (given by 2r sin A/2 - the angle here is 1 degree) is 92.13

So that’s the distance between the two people in a straight line through the curve of the earth.

The angle of the other two sides of the triangle formed by the centre of the earth and the two points on the earth where the angle at the centre is 1 degree is 89.3 degrees.

So that means the reading of 76 is 0.7 degrees off from the straight line chord through the circle.

So we now have a triangle where the base is 92.13 (the chord length) and the angles are actually 90.7 degrees and 76.7 degrees (adding the 0.7 degree correction).

That gives an actual height of 411.01km.

I may have got some of this wrong. Apologies for the lack of diagrams. Will try and add those if none of you know what I’m going on about!
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 18, 2019, 02:20:21 PM
Right. Made a right balls up of the above, I've had another go...

So, A and B are 100km apart. The ISS is directly above A, B measures an angle of 76 degrees from the ground to the ISS. They assume that the ground between them is flat which forms a triangle. A-B is the base, 100km. The side of the triangle is going straight up from A to the ISS so it's a right angled triangle. The internal angle of the triangle A-B-ISS is 76 degrees which makes the other internal angle 14 degrees. Putting the known values into a triangle calculator you get a height of 401km

(https://i.ibb.co/h8RgqG9/ISSFlat.jpg)

Actually though, A and B are on a sphere and although they are 100km apart they are 1 degree apart on the circumference of the sphere. So the total circumference is 36000km
(360 degrees in a circle, 100km is 1 degree)

Find the radius:

C = 2 pi r
so r = C / 2 pi
36000 / 2 pi = 5729.58km

(https://i.ibb.co/C09K4CR/ISSRound2.jpg)

Chord length is given by 2r sin (a/2) - where r is the radus of the circle, a is the angle at the centre of the circle (angle ACB above). That is 1 degree, so:

2 x 5729.58 x sin(0.5) = 99.998

So this is the straight line length between A and B through the curve of the circle.
The triangle ABC is isosoles so if the angle ACB is 1 degree then CAB and CBA must both be 89.5 degrees. That means there is 0.5 degrees between the chord and the tangent to the circle at both ends which we must adjust for. So:

A observes the ISS directly above him but adding the adjustment makes the angle
ISS-A-B 90.5 degrees

B measures an angle of 76 degrees, adding the adjustment that makes the angle
A-B-ISS 76.5 degrees.

The straight line AB is 99.998 so now we cancalculate the other sides of the triangle.

(https://i.ibb.co/0GpWCMd/ISSRound3.jpg)

So...I'll be honest, this isn't what I was expectint but now the calculated height is 432km. I'll admit this is a much bigger error than I was expecting.

Have I done something wrong or is this just how it is?
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: ChrisTP on January 18, 2019, 03:11:34 PM
100km of distance in curvature is extremely negligible in this case, I mean here's a triangle using 3 points, it was a right angle until I moved the point on the bottom right down precisely to account for curvature and as you can see in this case it's only 2 pixels down in my image, you might end up with a difference of ~.0001 degrees in that angle if you don't account for curvature, I personally don't see the need unless you want to be absolutely perfect..

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/535837780769767424/Untitled-3.png)
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 18, 2019, 03:20:09 PM
That was my gut instinct too but when I did the maths it did end up making more of a difference to the height calculation than I had anticipated.
Not orders of magnitude difference, it's not like a 93,000,000 mile away sun is suddenly 3,000 miles but it's about an 8% error
Unless I've got my maths or reasoning wrong which is entirely possible.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: ChrisTP on January 18, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
Well accounting for the curvature and assuming that section of earth is a straight line I get these measurements in a triangle for the angles and distances

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/535842511063613480/Untitled-3.png)


EDIT I should mention that this is with the assumption that the ISS is 408 km up and the two other points are 100km a part, but I only moved the point directly down for the curvature rather than in tangent to the surface of the earth, so I guess it was a pointless diagram to show as the numbers would still be off by a tiny, tiny fraction. :(

It's hard to determine to distance with such a small degree tbh, it would be better to try with a decent 400km across the earth rather than 100km
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: AATW on January 18, 2019, 03:31:43 PM
I went into a bit more detail, I assumed that the person got a measurement of 76 degrees from 100km and then did the maths as though that 100km was on a flat earth from the person who saw the ISS directly overhead. I then did the maths for what the height actually was given the same measurement if you accounted for a curve of 1 degree.
I was expecting the discrepancy to be quite small but it was actually much larger than I'd imagined.
I've explained my reasoning above, I may well have made a mistake somewhere (I did the first time!)
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: ChrisTP on January 18, 2019, 03:36:37 PM
I went into a bit more detail, I assumed that the person got a measurement of 76 degrees from 100km and then did the maths as though that 100km was on a flat earth from the person who saw the ISS directly overhead. I then did the maths for what the height actually was given the same measurement if you accounted for a curve of 1 degree.
I was expecting the discrepancy to be quite small but it was actually much larger than I'd imagined.
I've explained my reasoning above, I may well have made a mistake somewhere (I did the first time!)
Well without moving the point down for curvature the angle was still 76.228 degrees making a right angle triangle. Less than a degree out for that. accounting for the tangent would be half the amount anyway so 0.212
 degrees difference. Sorry I can't be more precise this was just a quick lunch break exercise.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Nosmo on January 18, 2019, 10:11:22 PM


So...I'll be honest, this isn't what I was expectint but now the calculated height is 432km. I'll admit this is a much bigger error than I was expecting.

Have I done something wrong or is this just how it is?

I think that you may be seeing a bigger discrepancy than you were expecting as there are two factors contributing to the discrepancy.
In the first instance you are taking the measurements and doing the math assuming that the Earth is flat.
In the second instance you are taking the measurements and doing the math assuming that the Earth is round.

If you want to see just what the difference is in using the arc length or the chord length for the base you need to calculate a third distance.
This would use the triangle that you used in the second example but use a side C length of 100 rather than 99.998.
(Angle C wont change between using arc or chord).

The rest of the discrepancy is then down to the different models.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: sanshin66 on February 06, 2019, 02:43:20 PM
Hi, i'm uneducated about math and geometry, and I am wondering how you are able to calculate the angle in degrees, and wouldn't everything you look at in the sky come up with the same distance using this method?
First parallax is measured in relation to the background, the angle is measured in degrees, then divided by 2?
And the angle is solved with tan = o/a ?

How do you get distance from parallax, in relation to background into degrees and how can you solve TOA without OA
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: manicminer on February 06, 2019, 03:26:44 PM
If I can return to the original question, the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?

We see the ISS just as we do any other natural satellite passing through the sky, because of reflected sunlight. I will try to find the link again but somewhere I found a website of an image of the spectrum of the light from the ISS and it showed the same pattern of spectral lines as the Sun. Not surprising since the spectral lines from any light source will be visible whether observer directly or reflected.

So are questionning whether the ISS itself is fake, or the light reflected off the ISS is somehow a fake? Just curious. As an aside you can aim a pair of binoculars or a telescope at the ISS as it is passing over and see it in quite a lot of detail.  The main body shines with a brilliant white while the solar panels are a distinct bronze tint.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: iamcpc on February 07, 2019, 09:17:30 PM
If I can return to the original question, the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?

We see the ISS just as we do any other natural satellite passing through the sky, because of reflected sunlight. I will try to find the link again but somewhere I found a website of an image of the spectrum of the light from the ISS and it showed the same pattern of spectral lines as the Sun. Not surprising since the spectral lines from any light source will be visible whether observer directly or reflected.

So are questionning whether the ISS itself is fake, or the light reflected off the ISS is somehow a fake? Just curious. As an aside you can aim a pair of binoculars or a telescope at the ISS as it is passing over and see it in quite a lot of detail.  The main body shines with a brilliant white while the solar panels are a distinct bronze tint.

This question "what is this thing that looks like the ISS that i'm able to see in the sky with a telescope in my backyeard" has been asked a few times with
several different answers:

1. Some sort of aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. A weather balooon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Bastian Baasch on February 07, 2019, 09:40:21 PM
If I can return to the original question, the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?

We see the ISS just as we do any other natural satellite passing through the sky, because of reflected sunlight. I will try to find the link again but somewhere I found a website of an image of the spectrum of the light from the ISS and it showed the same pattern of spectral lines as the Sun. Not surprising since the spectral lines from any light source will be visible whether observer directly or reflected.

So are questionning whether the ISS itself is fake, or the light reflected off the ISS is somehow a fake? Just curious. As an aside you can aim a pair of binoculars or a telescope at the ISS as it is passing over and see it in quite a lot of detail.  The main body shines with a brilliant white while the solar panels are a distinct bronze tint.

This question "what is this thing that looks like the ISS that i'm able to see in the sky with a telescope in my backyeard" has been asked a few times with
several different answers:

1. Some sort of aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. A weather balooon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.

How do any of these explanations account for when you see the ISS through a telescope like with this footage?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsc80evqJ88
(Raw footage in description)

I mean, that's got to be one really weird airplane (one that probably couldn't fly if you tried to build what you saw), sure doesn't look like a rock, doesn't look like a balloon either, and to my knowledge, the high altitude stations you're referencing are like the HAA's Lockheed Martin has, and those are basically blimps (unless you meant something else by high altitude station). So what is it these independent astronomers are seeing? Are they too under NASA's payroll? Are we just seeing CGI or a model or something?
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: iamcpc on February 07, 2019, 11:49:49 PM
This question "what is this thing that looks like the ISS that i'm able to see in the sky with a telescope in my backyeard" has been asked a few times with
several different answers:

1. Some sort of aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. A weather balooon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.

How do any of these explanations account for when you see the ISS through a telescope like with this footage?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsc80evqJ88
(Raw footage in description)

I mean, that's got to be one really weird airplane (one that probably couldn't fly if you tried to build what you saw), sure doesn't look like a rock, doesn't look like a balloon either, and to my knowledge, the high altitude stations you're referencing are like the HAA's Lockheed Martin has, and those are basically blimps (unless you meant something else by high altitude station).

It could be some sort of high altitude experimental aircraft. I don't know.
Some people would disagree when you claim that it does not look like a rock.
Some people would disagree when you claim that it does not look a balloon.
It could be a high altitude solar panel.



So what is it these independent astronomers are seeing?

What these independent astronomers are seeing has already been listed in my response:
1. Some sort of experimental or oddly shaped aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. some sort of experimental or oddly shaped  weather balloon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.
5. Some sort of upper atmosphere disturbance which causes light from the sun to refract in a specific way
(please keep in mind that I could provide many other things what you are seeing is)


Furthermore I'm unaware of what equipment is being used to lock onto and follow something that is moving that fast up in the sky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDIPZFqfGGo

Look at this video. An independent astronomer with a telescope/camera and a tripod is unable to "track" this moving aircraft/rock/balloon/mirage/upper atmosphere station. It just zips by. In the video you presented it looks like it is from some sort of professional observatory which very likely could be getting some sort of NASA funding.



Are they too under NASA's payroll? Are we just seeing CGI or a model or something?

Some of them could be on the NASA's payroll. I would venture to say that a majority of the FE community would not say that some guy with a camera and a tripod who sees this is on the NASA payroll. A big name observatory, which created the video you have shown, could very possibly be getting some sort of NASA funding.

What you are seeing is not a CGI model.  What you are seeing is:

1. Some sort of experimental or oddly shaped aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. some sort of experimental or oddly shaped  weather balloon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.
5. Some sort of upper atmosphere disturbance which causes light from the sun to refract in a specific way
(please keep in mind that I could provide many other things what you are seeing is)
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: stack on February 08, 2019, 12:22:25 AM
What you are seeing is not a CGI model.  What you are seeing is:

1. Some sort of experimental or oddly shaped aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. some sort of experimental or oddly shaped  weather balloon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.
5. Some sort of upper atmosphere disturbance which causes light from the sun to refract in a specific way
(please keep in mind that I could provide many other things what you are seeing is)

Here are 4 amateur shots:

(https://i.imgur.com/vgLIjHj.jpg?1)

1. I agree in a sense, it appears to be some sort of experimental or oddly shaped craft. The ISS is, in fact, an experimental, oddly shaped craft
2. Nothing here looks to be 'organic', as in natural. I think anyone would be hard-pressed to claim it to be.
3. It definitely does not scream balloon*
4. Perhaps*
5. That would have to be a very specific refraction that would have to occur for everyone around the world who has ever observed it in exactly the same way, always

*An explanation would be required as to it's speed and the fact that anyone can track it, see it overhead in one location. And another person, 45 minutes later, on the opposite side of the earth, 10,000 miles away, can track it, see it overhead.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Bastian Baasch on February 08, 2019, 12:26:04 AM
This question "what is this thing that looks like the ISS that i'm able to see in the sky with a telescope in my backyeard" has been asked a few times with
several different answers:

1. Some sort of aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. A weather balooon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.

How do any of these explanations account for when you see the ISS through a telescope like with this footage?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsc80evqJ88
(Raw footage in description)

I mean, that's got to be one really weird airplane (one that probably couldn't fly if you tried to build what you saw), sure doesn't look like a rock, doesn't look like a balloon either, and to my knowledge, the high altitude stations you're referencing are like the HAA's Lockheed Martin has, and those are basically blimps (unless you meant something else by high altitude station).

It could be some sort of high altitude experimental aircraft. I don't know.
Some people would disagree when you claim that it does not look like a rock.
Some people would disagree when you claim that it does not look a balloon.
It could be a high altitude solar panel.

This is sounding awfully like the counter arguments to that looks like a duck sounds like a duck walks like a duck thing. I understand what you mean though, we can't conclusively rule them out, until you really look into each of them, like you analyze aircraft designs, conclude under known aviation principles and aerodynamics that an aircraft of the design of the ISS would be impossible to fly and things like that, and even then, you'd have to keep up with current info on aviation and update your explanation.

So what is it these independent astronomers are seeing?

What these independent astronomers are seeing has already been listed in my response:
1. Some sort of experimental or oddly shaped aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. some sort of experimental or oddly shaped  weather balloon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.
5. Some sort of upper atmosphere disturbance which causes light from the sun to refract in a specific way
(please keep in mind that I could provide many other things what you are seeing is)


Furthermore I'm unaware of what equipment is being used to lock onto and follow something that is moving that fast up in the sky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDIPZFqfGGo

Look at this video. An independent astronomer with a telescope/camera and a tripod is unable to "track" this moving aircraft/rock/balloon/mirage/upper atmosphere station. It just zips by. In the video you presented it looks like it is from some sort of professional observatory which very likely could be getting some sort of NASA funding.

Sorry I wasn't more clear about it in my prior post. It's from the 80 cm telescope of the Public Observatory in Munich, but as the name suggests, it is indeed open to the public and they do let visitors look through the telescopes.
http://www.sternwarte-muenchen.de/portrait_e.html

Are they too under NASA's payroll? Are we just seeing CGI or a model or something?

Some of them could be on the NASA's payroll. I would venture to say that a majority of the FE community would not say that some guy with a camera and a tripod who sees this is on the NASA payroll. A big name observatory, which created the video you have shown, could very possibly be getting some sort of NASA funding.

What you are seeing is not a CGI model.  What you are seeing is:

1. Some sort of experimental or oddly shaped aircraft
2. Some sort of naturally occurring space debris like an asteroid.
3. some sort of experimental or oddly shaped  weather balloon
4. A high altitude station which is not in space.
5. Some sort of upper atmosphere disturbance which causes light from the sun to refract in a specific way
(please keep in mind that I could provide many other things what you are seeing is)

I'm not sure how big name the Public Observatory is, and they could be getting funding from NASA, if they are a sponsor, but faking it live when the ISS is to pass for visitors sounds rather difficult. I don't live in Munich sadly, so if there are any FE'ers who live there, it would be nice if we could get a firsthand report from someone there for tracking an ISS passing.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: iamcpc on February 08, 2019, 01:17:35 AM
I'm not sure how big name the Public Observatory is, and they could be getting funding from NASA, if they are a sponsor, but faking it live when the ISS is to pass for visitors sounds rather difficult. I don't live in Munich sadly, so if there are any FE'ers who live there, it would be nice if we could get a firsthand report from someone there for tracking an ISS passing.

Where did a Public Observatory come up with the money to afford an 80Cm telescope with advanced tracking technology to be able to lock onto, and maintain focus on, an object darting across the sky?
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: stack on February 08, 2019, 01:21:21 AM
I'm not sure how big name the Public Observatory is, and they could be getting funding from NASA, if they are a sponsor, but faking it live when the ISS is to pass for visitors sounds rather difficult. I don't live in Munich sadly, so if there are any FE'ers who live there, it would be nice if we could get a firsthand report from someone there for tracking an ISS passing.

Where did a Public Observatory come up with the money to afford an 80Cm telescope with advanced tracking technology to be able to lock onto, and maintain focus on, an object darting across the sky?

"Our 80 cm Cassegrain reflecting telescope with 8 m focal length, equipped with an altitude - azimuth computer controlled mount and located in a 3x3 m wheeled hut. This large telescope was inaugurated on 13 January 2005. It is one of the largest telescopes accessible by the public in central europe. Its enormous light gathering power gives impressive views of distant celestial objects like nebula, star clusters und galaxies. The generous donations of our many godfathers of dedications of stars allowed us to construct this instrument."
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on February 08, 2019, 01:51:23 AM
There are plenty of observatories that have really nice telescopes that were either donated or obtained through a grant. Take for instance, my alma mater, Rose-Hulman. They have an observatory called the Oakley observatory. Most of it was either funded by rich alumni or through the Oakley Foundation. No association with NASA. They regularly provide astronomical observations, data and images to Minor Planet Center at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. It's not that far fetched.
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: Bastian Baasch on February 08, 2019, 02:02:54 PM
I'm not sure how big name the Public Observatory is, and they could be getting funding from NASA, if they are a sponsor, but faking it live when the ISS is to pass for visitors sounds rather difficult. I don't live in Munich sadly, so if there are any FE'ers who live there, it would be nice if we could get a firsthand report from someone there for tracking an ISS passing.

Where did a Public Observatory come up with the money to afford an 80Cm telescope with advanced tracking technology to be able to lock onto, and maintain focus on, an object darting across the sky?

Well, from donations, like stack noted, membership fees, an annual grant from the city of Munich, and from some  sponsors if you clicked on the link I gave you (there's probably some financial documents that disclose that out there somewhere, I'll see what I can dig up to see if NASA is one of them.)
Title: Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
Post by: JCM on February 08, 2019, 05:15:03 PM

Furthermore I'm unaware of what equipment is being used to lock onto and follow something that is moving that fast up in the sky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDIPZFqfGGo

Look at this video. An independent astronomer with a telescope/camera and a tripod is unable to "track" this moving aircraft/rock/balloon/mirage/upper atmosphere station. It just zips by. In the video you presented it looks like it is from some sort of professional observatory which very likely could be getting some sort of NASA funding.
He is unable to track it because an EQ mount or Alt-Az mount is designed to track objects in the sky mathematically based on the rotation of the Earth, the latitude, and location of Polaris if in Northern Hemisphere or a few bright objects you use to calibrate.  Most EQ mounts for example are designed to work best at specific latitude ranges to keep the same object in its sights near perfectly for hours for imaging.  You can’t just look at an object and expect such a mount to follow it, that would take software and a custom program to control the mount to track the ISS moving in a few minutes across the sky.  Moving a telescope by hand to perfectly track the ISS would obviously be difficult.

With the right equipment tank shells are tracked through the air.  YouTube it.  The idea that you can’t track something that takes four to five minutes to cross the sky is a little silly when you can video in high def a tank shell from its firing to the target.  If it costs a few thousand dollars, what does that matter?  I am currently saving money for a TEC140 telescope that costs about $7000 with an EQ mount costing $2500.  When I attend skywatching parties, amateurs regularly bring telescopes which cost over $10000 on mounts that cost over $4000.  One local amateur skywatcher built his own observatory, must have cost him $60000 and his pictures and video would rival that public observatory.  A simple visit to an active astronomy club will show you the great lengths skywatchers are going for their hobby.