Evidence of the firmament
« on: September 12, 2022, 01:37:40 PM »
Hi all, either the search function on the Wiki isn't great or I can't internet.  Could you please point me towards the most relevant wiki entry for the firmament?

It's referred to in passing in several articles, but I can't find a dedicated piece (if there is one). Thank you.

TLDR;

Been following FET for several years, used a couple of different ALTs in that time.  But decided to set up a new account to get stuck back in after a year or so away. One of the most fascinating topics (to me, anyway) was that of the glass (or whatever) dome. But I don't recall seeing any specific experimentation or evidence beyond circumstantial. Not counting some religious verses chucked at me (from Jman, if memory serves).

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Offline Tron

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2022, 09:32:52 AM »
Hi Jonny,

Here's a few links to the Wiki which might help you get started....https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer

Gernerally speaking, the atmosphere on a flat earth is made of the same layers of gases as seen on a round earth (troposphere, mesosphere, stratosphere) etc... These all stack on top of one another and form domes within domes as there edges curve towards the ground near the edges of earth.  Each of these domes has a "firmament" or boundry layer called Tropopause, Mesopause, Stratopause, etc...) 

I'm not sure what contains all of these layers to earth generally speaking, except perhaps ice.  Space is freezing cold, and that would naturally form a layer of Ice along the edge of the outer atmosphere to hold it in. 
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2022, 09:51:36 AM »
Space is freezing cold, and that would naturally form a layer of Ice along the edge of the outer atmosphere to hold it in.

Space isn't 'cold'. It isn't really anything at all, as there are essentially zero molecules there to have any kind of temperature. Without a heat source, objects floating in space will eventually give off all of their internal heat via radiation, so they will become cold, but that's not because space itself is 'cold'.

The reason the tropopause is called the tropopause is because the generally progressive reduction in temperature with height that we experience in the troposphere inverts, and the air starts to get 'warmer' again with increasing altitude, becoming very 'hot' in the exosphere. I put 'warmer' and 'hot' because the concept of warmth / temperature doesn't mean what people think it means in the very thin air up there - there is very little conduction, so it wouldn't feel hot if you had your hand in it.

If you believe in either gravity or indeed UA, as per the wiki, then you wouldn't need anything to 'hold it in' at the top as it is simply the gravity or upward acceleration that causes the air to compress. However, what goes on at the edge is, of course, a different thing altogether and, if you subscribe to FET, then you would presumably take issue, at some point, with the conventional descriptions of the atmosphere's composition, given that the upper reaches of the atmosphere are beyond the altitudes given in the wiki for the moon and stars.

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Offline Tron

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2022, 10:05:01 PM »
Maybe a firmament or solid structure isn't necessary at the edges of a flat earth?  On a round earth, the layers of the atmosphere are lower in height at the Poles and higher at the Equator.  For example, the Troposphere is 4 miles high at the Poles and 12 miles high at the Equator.

The reason is that cold temperature makes liquids and gases more dense and sit closer to the ground. But if the atmosphere always seeks it level, why doesn't the higher and less dense air near the equator "spill over" into the Arctic areas?  I assume its the slow and gradual change in height, temp, and density that allows air to sit alongside itself like a load bearing Archway.

The same logic I think can apply to a flat earth.  The cold and more dense air at the edge of the disc help hold in the lesser dense air in the middle and it naturally creates a Dome.

I'm aware on a flat earth the altitude of the Atmosphere would have to be higher at one pole and lower at another pole to form a dome.  I can think of a few possibilities like air pressure but more investigation is needed.  Edit:. It's possible the lower atmosphere is condensed by cold temps in the center of a flat Earth but that the higher thinner air collects in the middle and maintains a domed shape.



Here's an explanation of Atmospheric layers on a Round Earth, but it doesn't address the height differences between the poles. 

« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 07:00:02 AM by Tron »
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 10:34:27 AM »
Maybe a firmament or solid structure isn't necessary at the edges of a flat earth?  On a round earth, the layers of the atmosphere are lower in height at the Poles and higher at the Equator.  For example, the Troposphere is 4 miles high at the Poles and 12 miles high at the Equator.

The reason is that cold temperature makes liquids and gases more dense and sit closer to the ground. But if the atmosphere always seeks it level, why doesn't the higher and less dense air near the equator "spill over" into the Arctic areas?  I assume its the slow and gradual change in height, temp, and density that allows air to sit alongside itself like a load bearing Archway.

The same logic I think can apply to a flat earth.  The cold and more dense air at the edge of the disc help hold in the lesser dense air in the middle and it naturally creates a Dome.

I'm aware on a flat earth the altitude of the Atmosphere would have to be higher at one pole and lower at another pole to form a dome.  I can think of a few possibilities like air pressure but more investigation is needed.  Edit:. It's possible the lower atmosphere is condensed by cold temps in the center of a flat Earth but that the higher thinner air collects in the middle and maintains a domed shape.



Here's an explanation of Atmospheric layers on a Round Earth, but it doesn't address the height differences between the poles. 



People devote entire careers to understanding the structure of the atmosphere, and none of their work comes even close to correlating to your hypotheses. Here’s just one example:

https://acp.copernicus.org/articles/19/5661/2019/

At some point, you have to ask yourself: ‘have I got this wrong?’, surely? Or do you invoke the conspiracy theory, and assume that everything that doesn’t conform to your view is part of that conspiracy?

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Offline Tron

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 01:50:25 PM »
Bob, all of the data I use is 99% "science approved" or from reputable institutions which I think your referring to..  Look again at the data I provided..

I need to sort through the atmospheric data you sent me in more detail later.

And to your earlier question about FE Theory in contention with regular atmospheric layer structure.... its not a problem.  As the visual above says, space craft, satellites, and the sun and moon all have there own "atmospheric" layer they reside in or on top of.  The sun and moon may be "on top" of another layer like the exosphere, but also within there own layer like the Heliosphere. 
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2022, 02:09:36 PM »
Bob, all of the data I use is 99% "science approved" or from reputable institutions which I think your referring to..  Look again at the data I provided..

But you also said:

Quote
I'm aware on a flat earth the altitude of the Atmosphere would have to be higher at one pole and lower at another pole to form a dome.  I can think of a few possibilities like air pressure but more investigation is needed.  Edit:. It's possible the lower atmosphere is condensed by cold temps in the center of a flat Earth but that the higher thinner air collects in the middle and maintains a domed shape.] I'm aware on a flat earth the altitude of the Atmosphere would have to be higher at one pole and lower at another pole to form a dome.  I can think of a few possibilities like air pressure but more investigation is needed.  Edit:. It's possible the lower atmosphere is condensed by cold temps in the center of a flat Earth but that the higher thinner air collects in the middle and maintains a domed shape.

Those two statements cannot coexist. There is a mountain of data pertaining to atmospheric composition at different latitudes, and none of it comes out dome-shaped.

That link I posted was merely one of hundreds of research papers and articles covering this field. You can’t just dismiss it all and just arbitrarily determine that it must be dome-shaped.

[edited to sort out html error]

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Offline Tron

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2022, 02:35:39 PM »
I'm not arguing the height of the Troposphere.  its the height of taller atmospheric layers which I'm looking for...  I haven't found it in the paper you sent me yet..
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

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Offline stack

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2022, 04:48:54 PM »
The height of the tropopause depends on the location, notably the latitude, as shown in the figure on the right (which shows annual mean conditions). It also depends on the season (1, 2). Thus, it is about 16 km high over Australia at year-end, and between 12 - 16 km at midyear, being lower at the higher latitudes. At latitudes above 60� , the tropopause is less than 9 -10 km above sea level; the lowest is less than 8 km high, above Antarctica and above Siberia and northern Canada in winter. The highest average tropopause is over the oceanic warm pool of the western equatorial Pacific, about 17.5 km high, and over Southeast Asia, during the summer monsoon, the tropopause occasionally peaks above 18 km. In other words, cold conditions lead to a lower tropopause, obviously because of less convection.

Deep convection (thunderstorms) in the Intertropical Convergence Zone, or over mid-latitude continents in summer, continuously push the tropopause upwards and as such deepen the troposphere. This is because thunderstorms mix the tropospheric air at a moist adiabatic lapse rate. In the upper troposphere, this lapse rate is essentially the same as the dry adiabatic rate of 10K/km. So a deepening by 1 km reduces the tropopause temperature by 10K. Therefore, in areas where (or at times when) the tropopause is exceptionally high, the tropopause temperature is also very low, sometimes below -80� C. Such low temperatures are not found anywhere else in the Earth's atmosphere, at any level, except in the winter stratosphere over Antarctica.

On the other hand, colder regions have a lower tropopause, obviously because convective overturning is limited there, due to the negative radiation balance at the surface. In fact, convection is very rare in polar regions; most of the tropospheric mixing at middle and high latitudes is forced by frontal systems in which uplift is forced rather than spontaneous (convective). This explains the paradox that tropopause temperatures are lowest where the surface temperatures are highest
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http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/tropo.html



Between the troposphere and stratosphere is the tropopause border that demarcates the beginning of the temperature inversion. Near the equator, the lower edge of the stratosphere is as high as 20 km (66,000 ft; 12 mi), at midlatitudes around 10 km (33,000 ft; 6.2 mi), and at the poles about 7 km (23,000 ft; 4.3 mi).[4] Temperatures range from an average of −51 °C (−60 °F; 220 K) near the tropopause to an average of −15 °C (5.0 °F; 260 K) near the mesosphere.[5] Stratospheric temperatures also vary within the stratosphere as the seasons change, reaching particularly low temperatures in the polar night (winter)


This image shows the temperature trend in the lower stratosphere as measured by a series of satellite-based instruments
between January 1979 and December 2005. The lower stratosphere is centered around 18 kilometers above Earth's surface.
The stratosphere image is dominated by blues and greens, which indicates a cooling over time.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratosphere

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Offline Tron

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Re: Evidence of the firmament
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 11:43:39 PM »
So it seems average strataspheroc temps are higher around the South Pole?  The temperature inversion beginning at the stratosphere from cold to warm as you move up in altitude may help explain a low troposphere and taller atmosphere on top. 

There's still some unexplained things though.  From 90N latitude the stratosphere is 4 miles high.  From 90S latitude the stratosphere or other top layers would begin to be much taller (on a South centered FE Map)- like  by 5 or 6 times to make a dome shape.   These kind of measurements I will look for.
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?