Poll

What is the perfect State?

Plato's Republic.
A purely anarchic non-State.
Thomas More's Utopia.
A purely Communist State, governed by strict Marxism as presented in Das Kapital and Theories of Surplus Value.
The Qur'an's Sharia governed State.
A Halachic State (one governed specifically according to Torah Law, which Israel isn't).
One governed according to a strict interpretation of Roman Catholic thought.
One governed according to a strict interpretation of Calvinist thought.
A State governed in accordance with the Hindu/Indian caste system.
Other (Read comment below and then tell us what you think).

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2015, 02:57:02 AM »
No, IRUSH, you misunderstand. I wasn't complaining, I was quite curious. I didn't realise that America had that high a population that got degrees. Given the average idiocy of the typical American, I was surprised. I am NOT surprised about South Korea or Finland, but I would expect the next country to be Japan or something, not the USA. Maybe I'm just not around the right people. And granted, we have a larger number of people in the population, so we will have a larger number of people getting degrees. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I am guessing that percentage of the population, other countries probably do better than we do?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2015, 03:06:35 AM »
Out of the top 10 universities on the planet, 7 of them are in the US. I think you vastly underestimate how good the education system is in the United States. Of course, tiny nations will have better overall percentages of their population. It is easy to be that way when a nation has little or no rural areas, when the majority of the US is rural.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 03:09:40 AM by Irushwithscvs »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2015, 03:26:18 AM »
Out of the top 10 universities on the planet, 7 of them are in the US. I think you vastly underestimate how good the education system is in the United States. Of course, tiny nations will have better overall percentages of their population. It is easy to be that way when a nation has little or no rural areas, when the majority of the US is rural.

Well, of course we have some of the best universities in the world, but how many Americans actually make use of the things? That was my point. I have an MA and two BAs, and I don't dispute that university education is excellent. But having gone through the public education system in California, I can assure you that I did NOT get those degrees based on my public education. California has one of the worst education systems in the country, if not the whole world. I would as soon shoot myself in the head as send a child of mine, if I had one, to a California Public School.

Having taught at university, I was appalled to see the status of the education system and the university freshman that came through my door. I think YOU would be surprised at how atrocious our public education system is, and, even at the university system level, just how ideologically driven it is.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2015, 03:36:24 AM »
Ah, yes, anecdotal experience. I'm sure that dumb freshman only exist in the US based on your thorough analysis.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2015, 03:40:14 AM »
Oh, I expect they exist everywhere. But I am not so sure they are tolerated to the degree that they are here. But this is getting rather off topic. The question was the Ideal State. My question to you is the following, to wit:

What do YOU think is the Ideal State? Not some mythical country's citizens, who you know damn well can never agree on how to exit a wet paper bag, but you yourself. Just in your head, what in your mind would be the Ideal State? I am honestly curious, even if I think you are full of it, I am curious as to what people's opinions are. I know mine, but I would love to hear what other people think.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2015, 03:48:20 AM »
I already said what I think: there is no perfect/ideal state. It doesn't exist. If you want an ideal government you'd have to fill every possible role with robots and then have those robots govern other robots that never deviate from a set of rules. All governments are fantastic on paper, but don't work because people will game the system. Humans will naturally try to circumvent rules even if it is of negative consequence to others.


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Offline beardo

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2015, 03:49:41 AM »
Imagine if Christianity, Judaism or Islam, or any other foreign religion, had never entered Europe...
The Mastery.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2015, 03:53:36 AM »
I already said what I think: there is no perfect/ideal state. It doesn't exist. If you want an ideal government you'd have to fill every possible role with robots and then have those robots govern other robots that never deviate from a set of rules. All governments are fantastic on paper, but don't work because people will game the system. Humans will naturally try to circumvent rules even if it is of negative consequence to others.

Well, you have a valid point, of course. Humans basically suck. But what, in an ideal world, would be an Ideal State?

Imagine if Christianity, Judaism or Islam, or any other foreign religion, had never entered Europe...

Well, Christianity is basically a European religion in many ways, because it takes Judaism and cleverly blends it with European Paganism. But, if you were to take Christianity and chuck it, and just have the Germanic, Norse, and Greco-Roman traditions, and of course the Slavic traditions, I expect Plato and Aristotle would still be ruling supreme.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2015, 03:59:04 AM »
Well, you have a valid point, of course. Humans basically suck. But what, in an ideal world, would be an Ideal State?

I just answered that, too. An ideal world would be entirely populated by unchanging self-governed robots that literally do nothing.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2015, 04:01:24 AM »
Well, you have a valid point, of course. Humans basically suck. But what, in an ideal world, would be an Ideal State?

I just answered that, too. An ideal world would be entirely populated by unchanging self-governed robots that literally do nothing.

That sounds quite dystopian to me, but ok. Lets hope said robots don't malfunction in any way.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2015, 04:04:22 AM »
That sounds quite dystopian to me, but ok. Lets hope said robots don't malfunction in any way.

They don't do anything, therefore a malfunction by definition would be impossible because they never functionally did anything to begin with.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2015, 04:05:54 AM »
That sounds quite dystopian to me, but ok. Lets hope said robots don't malfunction in any way.

They don't do anything, therefore a malfunction by definition would be impossible because they never functionally did anything to begin with.

So if they never do anything, they can't be defined as a State, which does something, ie governs a territory and a population of persons living within that territory.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2015, 04:08:13 AM »
So if they never do anything, they can't be defined as a State, which does something, ie governs a territory and a population of persons living within that territory.

That does not always qualify as a functional purpose.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2015, 04:12:57 AM »
So if they never do anything, they can't be defined as a State, which does something, ie governs a territory and a population of persons living within that territory.

That does not always qualify as a functional purpose.

That sounds more like you are pushingfor a purely anarchic non-State.

Rama Set

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2015, 04:13:58 AM »
I choose the united federation of planets circa season 3 of TNG.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2015, 04:15:48 AM »
I choose the united federation of planets circa season 3 of TNG.

Why specifically?

Thork

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2015, 03:09:40 PM »
Benevolent dictatorship would be my preferred option. Run by a leader so rich as to be incorruptible and with only the best interests of his subjects at heart.

No one really wants democracy. You always end up with two teams of the same persuasion boring the crap out of you with lies and squabbling whilst pandering to rich friends. You just want the country to be run well.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2015, 04:12:22 AM »
Benevolent dictatorship would be my preferred option. Run by a leader so rich as to be incorruptible and with only the best interests of his subjects at heart.

No one really wants democracy. You always end up with two teams of the same persuasion boring the crap out of you with lies and squabbling whilst pandering to rich friends. You just want the country to be run well.

Well, its a thought. Plato's Republic pushed the rule of the Aristocracy. Rather than explain it myself, I shall quote the rather well written Wikipedia section on it under the article "Plato's Five Regimes".

QUOTE-Aristocracy is the form of government (politeia) advocated in Plato's Republic. This regime is ruled by a philosopher king, and thus is grounded on wisdom and reason. The aristocratic state, and the man whose nature corresponds to it, are the objects of Plato's analyses throughout much of The Republic's books, as opposed to the other four types of states/men, that are studied primarily in Book VIII.

The aristocratic state that Plato idealizes is composed of three caste-like parts: the ruling class, made up of the aforementioned philosophers-kings (who are otherwise identified as having souls of gold); the auxiliaries of the ruling caste, made up of soldiers (whose souls are made up of silver), and whose job in the state is to force on the majority the order established by the philosophers; and the majority of the people (souls of either bronze or iron), who in contrast to the first two classes are allowed to own property and produce goods for themselves, but are also obliged to sustain with their own activities their rulers' — who are forbidden from owning property in order to preclude that the policies they undertake be tainted by personal interests.

The aristocratic man is better represented by Plato's brand of philosopher: a man whose character and ambitions have been forged into those ideal for a just ruler through a rigorous education system designed to train intellectuals that are selfless and upright, and whose souls have been made calm and aware of the absolute Good by learning the Truth based on the Platonic Ideas. Plato envisages for this philosopher a disposition and ability that makes him the ideal governor of any state precisely because his soul knows the Truth of the Good and he is therefore not only dedicated to establishing the Good in the state but is also incapable of desiring anything but the Good, for both the state and himself. For Plato, the knowledge of Good constitutes the happiest state possible in life, in comparison to which other forms of happiness —- material wealth, fame and power — are but shadows. Thus the man who knows the Idea of Good is not tempted to abuse power for his own gain; and, through his knowledge of the true virtues, is able to establish the ideal conditions for the citizens of his state to live the Good life.

In contrast to historical aristocracies, Plato's resembles a meritocracy or proto-technocracy of sorts. In it, a big government state keeps track of the innate character and natural skills of the citizens' children, and then directs them to the education that best suits those traits. In this manner, a child with a gold soul born to parents with silver, bronze or iron souls will not be held back by his inferior birth and will instead be educated to levels above his kin according to his golden qualities. Conversely, from parents with gold and silver souls, a child born with a bronze or an iron soul is educated to only the level earned by his natural aptitudes.-END QUOTE

That is what is ideal for me. I agree that democracy is one of the worst forms of government. I mean, all you have to do is observe the quality (or rather, the lack thereof) of the people who vote to determine who we are going to get elected to office. Its quite horrid, really.

Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2015, 08:21:31 PM »
Benevolent dictatorship would be my preferred option. Run by a leader so rich as to be incorruptible and with only the best interests of his subjects at heart.

No one really wants democracy. You always end up with two teams of the same persuasion boring the crap out of you with lies and squabbling whilst pandering to rich friends. You just want the country to be run well.

I'd be okay with living in that Country. such a person doesn't exist though.
Quote from: Saddam Hussein
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Perfect State
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2015, 08:31:34 PM »
It would be possible to create a general intelligence AI that could function similarly to a 'benevolent dictator' but we still end up with the question of how to go about doing that.