[Rama Set]

Well then I for one am glad that the Messiah is almost certainly a wishful thought and nothing more. Your world sounds dark, oppressive and terrible.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

At that point, any secularist, or any non-Jew, who happens to be in the way, will need to get clear or be made to get out of the way. It is that simple

Hallowed be the Ori.

[Tom]

What does מָגֵן mean?

It means magen = shield, often used in the term magen david = the shield of david = the star of david.

The hexagram you can see in the flag of Israel. It has to do with Kabbalah and the Sefer Yetzirah (book of formation/creation) showing the hexagram in a cube.

[Vongeo]

Is your name joel?

[Pete]

In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

I have two questions, if you don't mind.

As a Christian, I DO NOT believe in the trinity doctrine, since they say there are three persons as God, while YHWH himself has said the he is the only one (as God). And even Jesus said that God is only one (Mark. 12:29)...

The Christian pastors say all over the world that the word "Elohim" is a proof of that God is three persons since it is a plural form. Is it true that all nouns, verbs  and adjectives connected with the word "Elohim" in the Tanakh is ALWAYS in a singular form when God is talking about himself? And if this is the case, do you agree that the plural form is no proof at all of that HE is schizophrenic as the Father, Son and the holy spirit?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

I have two questions, if you don't mind.

As a Christian, I DO NOT believe in the trinity doctrine, since they say there are three persons as God, while YHWH himself has said the he is the only one (as God). And even Jesus said that God is only one (Mark. 12:29)...

The Christian pastors say all over the world that the word "Elohim" is a proof of that God is three persons since it is a plural form. Is it true that all nouns, verbs  and adjectives connected with the word "Elohim" in the Tanakh is ALWAYS in a singular form when God is talking about himself?

"Elohim" is a grammatically plural noun, it is true. However, the Rabbis have always understood it to mean that God is speaking in terms of the Royal We, as when Queen Elizabeth says something to the affect of "We are pleased with your report." She certainly is not suggesting that there is more than one of her. Accordingly, so it is with G-d.

And if this is the case, do you agree that the plural form is no proof at all of that HE is schizophrenic as the Father, Son and the holy spirit?

I certainly do agree, most whole-heartedly.

Now, to be fair, there is a Liberal argument, that I myself do not accept, but I shall present it just so it cannot be said that I haven't presented all sides. Liberal Jews, of which I do not count myself one (I classify myself as a traditional Jew, with Orthodox tendencies), have argued that in the Bible (the Jewish Bible, ie, the TaNaKh), when the authors of the Torah (these are Jews who accept the Four Source Theory E,P,J,D of authorship of the Torah; I do not. I personally believe that Moses wrote the Torah under divine guidance from G-d) use the term "Elohim", G-d is referring to himself and the Angels, or the "Divine Beings" (Angels, basically). But even these Jews don't think that G-d is talking to himself as a Trinity, or some perverse schizophrenic nature of himself.

Allow me to please reiterate that I in NO way share views with the Modernist Jews. I find their views distasteful in the extreme. But even they do not hold the idea that G-d is plural.

G-d is inalterably, unavoidably, absolutely, and positively, One. He can't possibly be anything else. To make him something else is to commit idolatry. Or at least that is the general point of view among Jews. Trinitarian Christians only narrowly avoid being stamped as idolators. They manage to avoid this because we do recognise that to them, Jesus IS G-d, not a different G-d, but G-d. As much as we find the belief unacceptable, because it is the Abrahamic G-d they are talking about, we are not inclined to make them idolators, although they get about as close as you can get to it, without actually doing it. Such a belief should be actively fought against, as it is injurious to the spiritual health of the believer thereof. On the other hand, there are far worse beliefs one could have, I suppose.

I hope that helps.

[Tom]

In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

I have two questions, if you don't mind.

As a Christian, I DO NOT believe in the trinity doctrine, since they say there are three persons as God, while YHWH himself has said the he is the only one (as God). And even Jesus said that God is only one (Mark. 12:29)...

The Christian pastors say all over the world that the word "Elohim" is a proof of that God is three persons since it is a plural form. Is it true that all nouns, verbs  and adjectives connected with the word "Elohim" in the Tanakh is ALWAYS in a singular form when God is talking about himself? And if this is the case, do you agree that the plural form is no proof at all of that HE is schizophrenic as the Father, Son and the holy spirit?

Yes, Elohim is plural. El = God and Elohim = Gods. That's why they also say: "Let us make man in our image".
In many verses in the Tanach the word "EL" is used for "God". So, when the word Elohim is used, the writer is talking about "Gods".

There are many 'Gods'. If there is something to this story, then these 'Gods' are intelligent creatures who manipulated the Life Energy.
What kind of Life Forms are we? Maybe 'Fallen' Lifeforms who exploit each other and are exploited by these 'Gods'?
Whatever it is, we are living in a strange flat environment.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

TOM, w/o trying to sound unfriendly, when the Torah uses the singular, that just means G-d is NOT using the Royal We in that instance. He doesn't, always. And forgive me if I say that debating theological points w/ a Jew who has lost his Faith (you), which puts you on my list of self-hating Jews, is not high on my list of things to do. There is ultimately no point to it. I have just sat shomer for 2 hrs & I'm tired. Go argue w/ someone who cares. Pete wants a true Jewish answer, I assume, as opposed to your atheist crap, @ least I hope he does.

[Tom]

TOM, w/o trying to sound unfriendly, when the Torah uses the singular, that just means G-d is NOT using the Royal We in that instance. He doesn't, always. And forgive me if I say that debating theological points w/ a Jew who has lost his Faith (you), which puts you on my list of self-hating Jews, is not high on my list of things to do. There is ultimately no point to it. I have just sat shomer for 2 hrs & I'm tired. Go argue w/ someone who cares. Pete wants a true Jewish answer, I assume, as opposed to your atheist crap, @ least I hope he does.

It is how I read the Tanach. You are on a discussion forum.

Elohim is a plural word. You made up the term 'Royal plural'. It does not exist in the hebrew Language.

El = God and Elohim = Gods.

All I am saying is that the 'Gods' might be intelligent creatures who created the flat earth to exploit other life forms. like human beings build farms to exploit animals.
All Life Forms are made of the same Life Energy. Hierarchy is a lie.

That's the real Jewish/Hebrew interpretation of the Tanach.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I have also read commentaries that say that "Elohim" is an intensifier as well.

[Tom]

That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

What is the definition of an atheist? I don't think I am one. Besides, I don't hate myself, but you hate me apparently.
I don't like your threats!

Back to the topic.

Do you only parrot the commentaries or can you think for yourself as well.
If you read the Tanach with the eye of a Kabbalist, you will also see different things.

In the beginning Elohim = Gods (plural) is used. Afterwards El = God (singular) is used in the different texts. Avraham (a group of people in that area) chose one of the many 'Gods' that were around, the one he liked most (the jealous/violent one).

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

What is the definition of an atheist? I don't think I am one. Besides, I don't hate myself, but you hate me apparently.
I don't like your threats!

I am not threatening you at all. I am just saying what you deserve to have done to you.

Back to the topic.

Do you only parrot the commentaries or can you think for yourself as well.
If you read the Tanach with the eye of a Kabbalist, you will also see different things.

This coming from someone who says that Judaism is untrue. You cannot be a student of Kabbalah and not be a Faithful and Devout Jew. It is impossible to do. Anyone who thinks it can be done is fooling themselves.

In the beginning Elohim = Gods (plural) is used. Later El = God is used in different texts. Avraham (a group of people in that area) chose one of the many 'Gods' that were around, the one he liked most (the jealous/violent one).

That, without a doubt, takes the California Taco for the stupidest remark I have ever heard a person say. It is clear to me that you are lacking in basic intelligence. Avraham did not choose anything. He was chosen by the Only True G-d. It is certainly true that there were other gods, but, as the commentaries say, they were but idols, with mouths that do not speak, ears that do not hear, eyes that do not see, and so-forth. Have you not read the commentary that discusses how Avram destroyed Terah's idols in his shop, and then blamed one of the idols? And when Terah did not accept this, Avram made clear to Terah how illogical the making of idols was? At least I think the idol-maker was Terah, its been awhile since I have read the tale myself. But whoever it was, you get my point.

Your lack of Faith in Judaism has made you spiritually empty. No Jew can ever fill his soul with anything spiritual except with Judaism. Anything else is but a pale imitation of the Divinely Revealed Faith that is ours by inheritance. What we get by birth, by election and grace, is something that others could only wish for, beg for. And you have thrown it away like a fool. May G-d have mercy on your poor, sorry, empty, savage soul.

I am not threatening you when I say that Torah should be applied to you. Naturally, I am not the one who would do it. I don't believe in vigilantism. But I do believe that in an ideal world, you would be killed, or at the least exiled, for your offence against the Divine Majesty. Any Jew who has rejected Judaism has forfeited his right to live, according to Torah. And I hope and pray that in my lifetime those laws will apply to you and your ilk. I shan't enforce them, as it isn't my business to do so. But I hope that they will be.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

And wow. I just noticed what you said. Calling Avraham a group of people. That is just, wow. Well, Stupid is as Stupid does, which is not to say that you are stupid, but the comment certainly was.

[Tom]

That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

What is the definition of an atheist? I don't think I am one. Besides, I don't hate myself, but you hate me apparently.
I don't like your threats!

I am not threatening you at all. I am just saying what you deserve to have done to you.

Back to the topic.

Do you only parrot the commentaries or can you think for yourself as well.
If you read the Tanach with the eye of a Kabbalist, you will also see different things.

This coming from someone who says that Judaism is untrue. You cannot be a student of Kabbalah and not be a Faithful and Devout Jew. It is impossible to do. Anyone who thinks it can be done is fooling themselves.

In the beginning Elohim = Gods (plural) is used. Later El = God is used in different texts. Avraham (a group of people in that area) chose one of the many 'Gods' that were around, the one he liked most (the jealous/violent one).

That, without a doubt, takes the California Taco for the stupidest remark I have ever heard a person say. It is clear to me that you are an idiot. Avraham did not choose anything. He was chosen by the Only True G-d. It is certainly true that there were other gods, but, as the commentaries say, they were but idols, with mouths that do not speak, ears that do not hear, eyes that do not see, and so-forth. Have you not read the commentary that discusses how Avram destroyed Terah's idols in his shop, and then blamed one of the idols? And when Terah did not accept this, Avram made clear to Terah how illogical the making of idols was? At least I think the idol-maker was Terah, its been awhile since I have read the tale myself. But whoever it was, you get my point.

Your lack of Faith in Judaism has made you spiritually empty. No Jew can ever fill his soul with anything spiritual except with Judaism. Anything else is but a pale imitation of the Divinely Revealed Faith that is ours by inheritance. What we get by birth, by election and grace, is something that others could only wish for, beg for. And you have thrown it away like a fool. May G-d have mercy on your poor, sorry, empty, savage soul.

I am not threatening you when I say that Torah should be applied to you. Naturally, I am not the one who would do it. I don't believe in vigilantism. But I do believe that in an ideal world, you would be killed, or at the least exiled, for your offence against the Divine Majesty. Any Jew who has rejected Judaism has forfeited his right to live, according to Torah. And I hope and pray that in my lifetimes those laws will apply to you and your ilk. I shan't enforce them, as it isn't my business to do so. But I hope that they will be.

You acknowledge with your words that the God you worship is a 'God' full of hate and violence. Well, the Tanach is full of it.
And you are one of his most fanatical followers, it seems.

So, back to the topic.

Avraham (a group of people, as there is no proof that a person called Avraham ever existed) decided to worship this violent God (El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Hashem, etc).
Maybe he was invited to do so, but he believed this 'God' will help him.

Other people who are worshipping other 'Gods' are driven away or killed.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

You acknowledge with your words that the God you worship is a 'God' full of hate and violence. Well, the Tanach is full of it.

It was a violent time. After all, it was the Bronze Age. What do you expect, that they were all going to gather round and sing about the age of Aquarius with the Canaanites? You really make some illogical remarks, indicative of a severe lack of knowledge of history. It was hardly convenient for Joshua to invite the citizens of Jericho to sit round the campfire, roast s'mores (even if you could have found kosher marshmallows), and sing kum-bay-ya.

And you are one of his most fanatical followers, it seems.

A juvenile response from a petty little man that can't keep up in an argument.

So, back to the topic.

Avraham (a group of people, as there is no proof that a person called Avraham ever existed) decided to worship this violent God (El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Hashem, etc).
Maybe he was invited to do so, but he believes this 'God' will help him.

There is no proof that a people named "Avraham" ever existed. It is true that they have not found Avraham's bones, but after all, it was a LONG time ago. How illogical to take the name of a person and convert it, with no evidence to do so, into the name of a people group. That make no sense at all.

Other people who are worshipping other 'Gods' are driven away or killed.

Naturally. Granted, at this point, the Hebrews were basically just an extended family group. But eventually, with the fullness of the time, after Torah was delivered to Moses, the Law applied to all. If one rejected it, you were driven outside the Camp of Israel or killed, as one should have been.

[Tom]

You acknowledge with your words that the God you worship is a 'God' full of hate and violence. Well, the Tanach is full of it.

It was a violent time. After all, it was the Bronze Age. What do you expect, that they were all going to gather round and sing about the age of Aquarius with the Canaanites? You really make some illogical remarks, indicative of a severe lack of knowledge of history. It was hardly convenient for Joshua to invite the citizens of Jericho to sit round the campfire, roast s'mores (even if you could have found kosher marshmallows), and sing kum-bay-ya.

And you are one of his most fanatical followers, it seems.

A juvenile response from a petty little man that can't keep up in an argument.

So, back to the topic.

Avraham (a group of people, as there is no proof that a person called Avraham ever existed) decided to worship this violent God (El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Hashem, etc).
Maybe he was invited to do so, but he believes this 'God' will help him.

There is no proof that a people named "Avraham" ever existed. It is true that they have not found Avraham's bones, but after all, it was a LONG time ago. How illogical to take the name of a person and convert it, with no evidence to do so, into the name of a people group. That make no sense at all.

Other people who are worshipping other 'Gods' are driven away or killed.

Naturally. Granted, at this point, the Hebrews were basically just an extended family group. But eventually, with the fullness of the time, after Torah was delivered to Moses, the Law applied to all. If one rejected it, you were driven outside the Camp of Israel or killed, as one should have been.

So, the story started with 'In the beginning created Elohim (Gods) .......' and it ends with El (Elah), the God a group of people (family) decided to worship as he promised them a good life (at the expense of many other people). The family used a lot of violence.

It is a collective system with a fence around it. A black box (cube) with a strict law in it (Tefillin).
Even the children of the children of the children .... of this group have to obey this strange 'God'. Nobody knows if he really exists or if he is one of the 'Gods' who exploit the human race.

It would be interesting to find this out.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

So, the story started with 'In the beginning created Elohim (Gods) .......' and it ends with El (Elah), the God a group of people (family) decided to worship as he promised them a good life (at the expense of many other people). The family used a lot of violence.

It is a collective system with a fence around it. A black box (cube) with a strict law in it (Tefillin).
Even the children of the children of the children .... of this group have to obey this strange 'God'. Nobody knows if he really exists or if he is one of the 'Gods' who exploit the human race.

It would be interesting to find this out.

Composing a logical answer to such a stupid response is going to be difficult at best. Of course the Hebrews used violence. IT WAS THE BRONZE AGE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you propose one more time for them to sing kum-bay-ya with the natives, I am going to suggest you be arrested just for committing the crime of felony stupid.

Since the laws regarding Tefillin were not ordered until well after Avraham, you are making a bit of ass of yourself. And by then, the Tribes were a nation, rather than a family. And how strict is it, really, to remind you what your G-d is, and to tell you to teach your children about your G-d? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

And this crap about "gods exploiting the human race". You sound like Erich von Daniken. Not exactly a man I would be trying to emulate. I've read enough of his books to know that he is a quack, preying on the simple-minded (which I agree would include you, or so it would appear at present. You might of course change my mind by demonstrating logical arguing skills).

[Tom]

So, the story started with 'In the beginning created Elohim (Gods) .......' and it ends with El (Elah), the God a group of people (family) decided to worship as he promised them a good life (at the expense of many other people). The family used a lot of violence.

It is a collective system with a fence around it. A black box (cube) with a strict law in it (Tefillin).
Even the children of the children of the children .... of this group have to obey this strange 'God'. Nobody knows if he really exists or if he is one of the 'Gods' who exploit the human race.

It would be interesting to find this out.

Composing a logical answer to such a stupid response is going to be difficult at best. Of course the Hebrews used violence. IT WAS THE BRONZE AGE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you propose one more time for them to sing kum-bay-ya with the natives, I am going to suggest you be arrested just for committing the crime of felony stupid.

Since the laws regarding Tefillin were not ordered until well after Avraham, you are making a bit of ass of yourself. And by then, the Tribes were a nation, rather than a family. And how strict is it, really, to remind you what your G-d is, and to tell you to teach your children about your G-d? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

And this crap about "gods exploiting the human race". You sound like Erich von Daniken. Not exactly a man I would be trying to emulate. I've read enough of his books to know that he is a quack, preying on the simple-minded (which I agree would include you, or so it would appear at present. You might of course change my mind by demonstrating logical arguing skills).

To incite a group of people to use such a violence, killing men, women and children is absurd. We are talking about a War God.

I am talking about the collective system in general, the Hebrew system is. I use the black cube (Tefillin) as a metaphore to illustrate that it is a divisive, oppressive and enclosed system.

A sane person would reject such an absurd system for living beings with the Life Force in it.
So, I am trying to figure out if there really are 'Gods' who are oppressing and exploiting living expressions of Life.

On the other hand, it is not relevant, as all Life Forms have the Life Force 'in' them, so nobody has to obey an outside power/force.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

To incite a group of people to use such a violence, killing men, women and children is absurd. We are talking about a War God.

So you are guilty of the crime of felonious stupidity by asking Bronze Age people to respond to the standard violence of their time with chants of "kum-bay-ya". Ok. Now that we have established your inability to say anything intelligent on the topic...

I am talking about the collective system in general, the Hebrew system is. I use the black cube (Telfeillin) as a metaphore to illustrate that it is a divisive, oppressive and enclosed system.

Explain, without committing the offense of felonious stupidity, how it is oppressive and enclosed.

A sane person would reject such an absurd system for living beings with the Life Force in it.
So, I am trying to figure out if there really are 'Gods' who are oppressing and exploiting living expressions of Life.

Greetings, Erich. What is your latest absurd claim, I wonder?

On the other hand, it is not relevant, as all Life Forms have the Life Force 'in' them, so nobody has to obey an outside power/force.

This makes no sense. Of course all living things are alive. That is what makes them "living things". See how that works? If they were not alive, ie, did not have life force, they would be dead. See how that works? That doesn't eliminate the need to obey the Creator of the Universe and all that therein lies.