Offline Cypher9

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I want to know why it doesn't look completely different every night if we're spinning around through space like they say we are. All that supposed movement still the position of the stars remains pretty much the same each night. Something about that seems off if you ask me.

Don't know about you, but the most recognisable constellation in my sky, at least over winter, is Orion. It doesn't stay still in my sky, in general terms I clearly see it at first to my South East, and it doesn't take long for it to have moved to South West and beyond over the course of a night.

Certainly doesn't stay still. Neither does the Moon, which shows the same sort of behaviour, crossing my sky exactly as would be expected with us rotating around, bringing it into view and taking it out of view, appearing in broadly the same spot once every 24 hours. The spot varies long-term, according to the seasons. 

The stars don't look COMPLETELY different because, in the big scheme of things, we're hardly moving at all. We spin around once every 24 hours or so, cycle around the Sun once every 365 days, but in galactic terms, we're a drop in the ocean. A grain of sand on a big beach.

I've heard this size explanation before but it still sounds odd. If you were standing on a grain of sand flying through space I reckon your view is going to change dramatically from one moment to the next.

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Offline Iceman

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If you were standing on a grain of sand flying through space I reckon your view is going to change dramatically from one moment to the next.

Why do you reckon that? When you're driving through the great Plains, do farms or mountains off in the distance change dramatically from one moment to the next? When you're on a cruise, do islands pop up and disappear from one moment to the next? When you're on a plane, travelling at 500 mph, does the ground beneath you hurtle past so fast you cant focus on it?


Offline WTF_Seriously

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But Orion is still there isn't it? Just strikes me as odd that we're supposedly going in circles around the sun which in turn is spinning around the galaxy which also is likely doing something similar and all the time our night sky never seems to change that much.

It's just a matter of distance and scale.  Go outside and look at a mountain (or I guess any distant object).  Now spin around while walking in a small a circle.  Does the mountain appear in the same place and look the same every time you turn around?  Pretty much the same concept.
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Offline Cypher9

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If you were standing on a grain of sand flying through space I reckon your view is going to change dramatically from one moment to the next.

Why do you reckon that? When you're driving through the great Plains, do farms or mountains off in the distance change dramatically from one moment to the next? When you're on a cruise, do islands pop up and disappear from one moment to the next? When you're on a plane, travelling at 500 mph, does the ground beneath you hurtle past so fast you cant focus on it?
I reckon they would if the road was a spiral.

The night sky seen from the northern and southern hemispheres is radially different.  No matter how powerful your telescope you can not see stars that are on the other side of the planet from your position.  That is what we observe and it makes perfect sense for a ball earth.  But why would it be true for a flat earth?
Despite the height of an object above our heads, it will eventually be obscured by objects arising from the flat earth plane.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Okay, let me elucidate.

A plane is flying from N to S.

You do not see it immediately due to clouds between you and the plane, but can hear it.

Then, it appears to you from between the clouds, then disappears again briefly, but reappears.

As it makes its way further S, it disappears behind a ten foot tall tree immediately behind you, then reappears briefly, only to disappear behind a water tower 1/2 mile away from you.
Then it finally disappears from your sight behind a distant line of low level clouds 10 miles down range of your position.
In the far north or far south the stars are completely different. How can you explain that for a flat earth?
That has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

I would expect to see different things over my head as I move about, even in a 10x12 room.

All clutter on the horizon can be ignored by only looking at the sky say 20 degrees up from all horizons.  We're observing on a  clear night so clouds are not an issue.  We'll observe at midnight each night so the daily rotation of the earth (or the universe in the FE mode) is not important.  If you start in the far north and travel south you will observe stars seemingly to rotate over your head so some fall below the norther horizon and new ones emerge from the southern horizon.  At the two north/south extremes of your trip the night sky will be radically different.  This effect is observed the wold over and has been since people have been looking at the night sky.

Even in your 10x12 room you would expect to see the entire ceiling form anywhere in the room.  Even in the FE model the stars are a lot farther way than the ceiling in a small room yet as we move north/south the entire sky, not just what is directly over our heads changes.

Clearly the shape of the earth has everything to do with it.

Offline Action80

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You will see 20 degrees up if that is the angle at which your eyes are aimed. But it matters not when those stars you claim should be visible to you are below a 20 degree position. You act as if your unfamiliar with a protractor.

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Offline Tumeni

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You will see 20 degrees up if that is the angle at which your eyes are aimed. But it matters not when those stars you claim should be visible to you are below a 20 degree position. You act as if your unfamiliar with a protractor.

Are you suggesting the stars between zero elevation and 20 degree elevation are not visible?

Why?

Please explain the protractor reference. perhaps with a diagram to show what you mean.
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Offline Action80

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I am stating there is going to be interference with line of sight caused by objects arising from the earth with these stars and it is an impossibility for it to be otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 02:42:36 PM by Action80 »

I am stating there is going to be interference with line of sight caused by objects arising from the earth with these stars and it is an impossibility for it to be otherwise.

Why does it matter?  Forget the stars that you might not see due to obstructions, being generous cal that 20 degrees up from the horizon in all directions.  Focus on the 140 degrees you can easily see in all directions.  What is the explanation of why the stars in that region change as you move north/south such that at far north compared to far south latitude they are completely different.  Exactly what you expect when changing your position on a sphere, exactly NOT what you expect when doing so on a plane.

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Offline Tumeni

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The stars don't look COMPLETELY different because, in the big scheme of things, we're hardly moving at all. We spin around once every 24 hours or so, cycle around the Sun once every 365 days, but in galactic terms, we're a drop in the ocean. A grain of sand on a big beach.

I've heard this size explanation before but it still sounds odd. If you were standing on a grain of sand flying through space I reckon your view is going to change dramatically from one moment to the next.[/quote]

Which is what happens to us here on Earth; specific constellations move across the sky overnight, according to our speed of rotation. In my case, they start in the south-east and arc over to south-west and beyond. That's a pretty drastic change in view, even though it takes a few hours to occur. They also appear differently according to the seasons.

But overall, the constellation stays exactly the same, year after year. Because it's so far away.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tumeni

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I am stating there is going to be interference with line of sight caused by objects arising from the earth with these stars and it is an impossibility for it to be otherwise.

Yes, but ... so what?

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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline Action80

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I am stating there is going to be interference with line of sight caused by objects arising from the earth with these stars and it is an impossibility for it to be otherwise.

Why does it matter?  Forget the stars that you might not see due to obstructions, being generous cal that 20 degrees up from the horizon in all directions.  Focus on the 140 degrees you can easily see in all directions.  What is the explanation of why the stars in that region change as you move north/south such that at far north compared to far south latitude they are completely different.  Exactly what you expect when changing your position on a sphere, exactly NOT what you expect when doing so on a plane.
The angle of the view certainly changes, and you certainly are viewing them from a different direction. Sounds more like a celestial sphere to me.

As I explained earlier, one would expect to see different things overhead as you move on the flat earth plane.

I am stating there is going to be interference with line of sight caused by objects arising from the earth with these stars and it is an impossibility for it to be otherwise.

Why does it matter?  Forget the stars that you might not see due to obstructions, being generous cal that 20 degrees up from the horizon in all directions.  Focus on the 140 degrees you can easily see in all directions.  What is the explanation of why the stars in that region change as you move north/south such that at far north compared to far south latitude they are completely different.  Exactly what you expect when changing your position on a sphere, exactly NOT what you expect when doing so on a plane.
The angle of the view certainly changes, and you certainly are viewing them from a different direction. Sounds more like a celestial sphere to me.

As I explained earlier, one would expect to see different things overhead as you move on the flat earth plane.
As longitude varies at a far southern latitude (i.e. around the south pole) the stars are the same, despite according to the FE model that those places are very far apart (around the circumference of the disk), so the notion that you are just to far away to see the stars overhead does not hold.  Further even with a big telescope you can not see stars that have fallen below the horizon compared to a different north/south position.  The FE model does not begin to explain what we see.

Of course with a telescope you should also be able to see the sun from the night portion of the earth since its also not far away.  Clearly just after "sunset" if it really i just moving too far away to be seen with the naked eye you could see it with a telescope. But we can not since it is being hidden by the planet.  The FE model simply does not work.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 07:27:15 PM by ichoosereality »