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Offline PraiseGOD

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God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« on: July 31, 2022, 01:52:28 AM »
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.. so turn from your evil ways, for why will you die?

If our transgressions and sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we live?

Repent and put your faith in our Lord Jesus Christ TODAY!

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(Revelation 14:12)

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Online xasop

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2022, 02:49:02 AM »
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked
No, only in the death of the innocent.

"If the scourge slay suddenly, He will laugh at the trial of the innocent." — Job 9:23
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Offline honk

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2022, 05:00:03 PM »
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked
No, only in the death of the innocent.

"If the scourge slay suddenly, He will laugh at the trial of the innocent." — Job 9:23

Job himself says that line in the midst of his despair, before he learns to humble himself before God and accept that his own misfortune means nothing in the face of divine wisdom. The Book of Job as a parable is morally dubious, but a line like that clearly isn't meant to be taken at face value.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2022, 05:30:09 PM »
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked
No, only in the death of the innocent.

"If the scourge slay suddenly, He will laugh at the trial of the innocent." — Job 9:23

Job himself says that line in the midst of his despair, before he learns to humble himself before God and accept that his own misfortune means nothing in the face of divine wisdom. The Book of Job as a parable is morally dubious, but a line like that clearly isn't meant to be taken at face value.

There are lots of things in the Bible that aren’t meant to be taken literally but still are. Don’t forget Young Earth Creationists are real.
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Offline honk

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2022, 08:44:55 PM »
I don't mean that it shouldn't be taken on face value in the sense that it should be interpreted symbolically or metaphorically; it's simply out of context. They're the words of a human character who is shown to be mistaken by the end of the story.
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Online xasop

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2022, 08:48:12 PM »
They're the words of a human character who is shown to be mistaken by the end of the story.
Actually, he isn't shown to be mistaken. God simply says "I'm right and you're wrong" and Job responds with "yes sir, I'm sorry sir". No actual refutation is given to anything he said.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2022, 09:32:33 PM »
It's difficult to interpret the book of Job charitably. A lot of people probably heart the story when they were kids and just accepted it.

If you took any reference of God or Satan out of it and read it to an adult who's never heard it before I think they'd see both parties as being monstrous.

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Online xasop

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2022, 10:09:45 PM »
It's difficult to interpret the book of Job charitably.
On the contrary, it is one of the few books of the Bible that is openly critical of God, even if it does backflip in the last couple of chapters, and as such is very thought-provoking. Unlike most books, which merely expound on God's love and generosity and his punishment of human wickedness, a critical reading of Job encourages the reader to consider whether Job's arguments against God are reasonable, and perhaps relate them to suffering in the reader's own life. It is just a pity that so many Christians do not read the Bible critically.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2022, 06:51:36 AM »
You must have had a different religious education than I did.

In my religious education, The Moral of Job is that if life give you a complete beat down then just take it with a smile. Because it's God's will.  I doesn't matter that it was just to prove a point to Satan.  As a human our place in the world is to withstand any suffering and explain it away as God's plan.

Something similar to how a human trafficker should not only be obeyed but revered.  Because the human trafficker can inflict great violence and pain upon the trafficked.  And this ability to make your final moments horrible and snuff out your life at a whim is indistinguishable from God.

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Online xasop

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2022, 06:56:54 AM »
You must have had a different religious education than I did.
I have had almost no religious education at all. I am discovering the Bible as an adult, having lived almost all of my life as an atheist. My reflections on the Bible are thus entirely my own and have little to do with conventional Christian interpretation.

In my religious education, The Moral of Job is that if life give you a complete beat down then just take it with a smile. Because it's God's will.  I doesn't matter that it was just to prove a point to Satan.  As a human our place in the world is to withstand any suffering and explain it away as God's plan.

Something similar to how a human trafficker should not only be obeyed but revered.  Because the human trafficker can inflict great violence and pain upon the trafficked.  And this ability to make your final moments horrible and snuff out your life at a whim is indistinguishable from God.
This is what I mean by Christians not reading the Bible critically. Sure, that is a valid interpretation (albeit a morbid one), but in a supposedly enlightened society, students of the Bible should be encouraged to reflect on the story of Job for themselves and not simply accept what somebody else tells them it means.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2022, 05:01:42 PM »
Interesting point of view.  My perspective is a little different.  I was educated in a fundamentalist Christian school up until high school.  Obviously the indoctrination didn't stick but I believed it at the time.  So when it comes to stories like the Binding of Isaac my opinions on them are pretty intense.

You may read a story like that the same way you might watch an episode of Evangelion. 

I read a story like that with the understanding that it's taught at every Christian Sunday school in a very uncritical way.  In a Christian school the moral of that story is if God tells you to commit an atrocity then you must commit an atrocity.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2022, 06:10:05 PM »
In a Christian school the moral of that story is if God tells you to commit an atrocity then you must commit an atrocity.

It wouldn't be phrased that way, however, as if it's something God is doing (or telling someone to do) it is, by definition of God being all-good, not an atrocity.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2022, 06:50:49 PM »
In a Christian school the moral of that story is if God tells you to commit an atrocity then you must commit an atrocity.

It wouldn't be phrased that way, however, as if it's something God is doing (or telling someone to do) it is, by definition of God being all-good, not an atrocity.

That brings us to the Euthyphro Dilemma

If the only criterion for determining if an action is good or not is because God said it then God could pretty much demand that you do anything.  i.e. killing your own children.  I would describe that as an atrocity.  But because God command it then it's righteous. 

Some people might counter that God would never command that.  But 1.  He definitely did.  And 2.  If he wouldn't then why?  Is there some morality God follows?  That sort of implies that morality exists independent of God.

A more practical problem with divine command theory is who speaks to God and who speaks for God?  In the Mormon church, supposedly, the president of the church speaks to God.  He could just one day say that God commands that Utah be a sovereign nation and the Mormons need to ethnically cleanse Utah of all non Mormons.  Anyone Mormon who disagreed with that wouldn't have a leg to stand on.  They're not the ones who speak directly to God.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2022, 07:20:07 PM »
A more practical problem with divine command theory is who speaks to God and who speaks for God?  In the Mormon church, supposedly, the president of the church speaks to God.  He could just one day say that God commands that Utah be a sovereign nation and the Mormons need to ethnically cleanse Utah of all non Mormons.  Anyone Mormon who disagreed with that wouldn't have a leg to stand on.  They're not the ones who speak directly to God.

If Brother Brigham could have had his way that would have been exactly the case.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

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Offline Tron

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2022, 07:46:17 PM »
I just read Job again after a few years.  The first time I read it was very comforting in a difficult time.  The friends that visit Job are very kind.  I would just take Gods original conversation with Satan at face value - the point that Job is faithful no matter what.

From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Online xasop

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2022, 08:54:17 PM »
Interesting point of view.  My perspective is a little different.  I was educated in a fundamentalist Christian school up until high school.  Obviously the indoctrination didn't stick but I believed it at the time.  So when it comes to stories like the Binding of Isaac my opinions on them are pretty intense.

You may read a story like that the same way you might watch an episode of Evangelion.
Sort of. My view of the Binding of Isaac is that it must be read in the context in which it was written — that is, the ancient Near East at a time when it was dominated by polytheistic cultures that routinely performed ritual sacrifice. In that context, the story makes perfect sense as a way of differentiating Yahweh from the other gods of the time. This isn't even a great leap of faith, as the Pentateuch makes frequent explicit references to the polytheistic cultures of the time and the fact that their practices were viewed as wicked by Yahweh. That is what the Bible says its context is.

Once you read it in that context, it follows that it has absolutely no moral value in the modern world. I don't think that contradicts belief in God at all; it merely requires acknowledging that Genesis, as a legitimate account of God's early interaction with humans, was authored by humans in a specific time and place and cannot be removed from that context or the embellishments that go with it.

I read a story like that with the understanding that it's taught at every Christian Sunday school in a very uncritical way.  In a Christian school the moral of that story is if God tells you to commit an atrocity then you must commit an atrocity.
And that, to me, is a problem. Not the story itself, which is perfectly harmless if viewed in the proper context, but the insistence that there is one correct interpretation. Supposedly God gave us free will, so why not let children use it when learning about him?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 08:56:56 PM by xasop »
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2022, 10:02:25 PM »
The thing is that anyone can pick up any version of any Bible and interpret it in any way they choose. What they get from the Bible is a reflection on them and not a reflection on the Bible.
They say that God created Man In His Image but people grab the Bible and create a God in their image.

A racist, Trumpian shithead will read the Bible and find a racist, Trumpian shithead God.
My hate for you and everything you stand for is so much deeper than the depths of Shambala that you could probably take the entire Lungmen population down there and back up around twenty million times before you would have sunk to the end of my hate.



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Online xasop

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2022, 09:37:56 AM »
The thing is that anyone can pick up any version of any Bible and interpret it in any way they choose. What they get from the Bible is a reflection on them and not a reflection on the Bible.
They say that God created Man In His Image but people grab the Bible and create a God in their image.

A racist, Trumpian shithead will read the Bible and find a racist, Trumpian shithead God.
And I have no problem with that. My problem is when they indoctrinate children with their garbage ideas using the Bible as justification.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked..
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2022, 11:49:45 AM »
And I have no problem with that. My problem is when they indoctrinate children with their garbage ideas using the Bible as justification.

The Christian Nationalist don't call it indoctrination, they call it, "Spreading the good news of our Lord!"

Of course, the good news of the Lord is, "Join us or you will perish in eternal suffering you heathen!"
My hate for you and everything you stand for is so much deeper than the depths of Shambala that you could probably take the entire Lungmen population down there and back up around twenty million times before you would have sunk to the end of my hate.



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