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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2022, 11:58:37 AM »
Actually I have stated neither that religion is true or false, or that you should believe or disbelieve it. I have stated that there is an experiment to determine the truth of the matter.

It's not really clear how your experiment would work. Because if you die and that's just it, lights out, there's nothing left of you to know whether there was another place to go or not. Someone living would have to observe the fact that you're just lights out.

The Bible claims that you will be in an afterlife and that it isnt it. It is possible to prove to yourself the existence of an afterlife, not to other people.

In the Maccabees passage it suggested that some of the dead were stuck somewhere between heaven and hell.

Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing. KJV got rid of it. Are you going by Catholic rules only?

I couldn't say which rules are correct. This is why I called it a "possibility".
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 12:10:20 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline xasop

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2022, 12:57:03 PM »
Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing.
No, Orthodox Bibles have it too, and Martin Luther advised reading it, while emphasising that he did not consider it scripture. The practice of omitting it entirely is a very recent and very dubious phenomenon within Protestantism.

KJV got rid of it.
Incorrect. What you mean to say is that most modern printings of the KJV omit it. The original KJV translation had it, and it is still possible to find the KJV with it if you really want your Bible to sound like Shakespeare for some reason.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Online BillO

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2022, 01:52:25 PM »
But to say that there is no possible evidence on this subject is false.
Where did I ever say there was no evidence?  I've just not seen any.  I did say I am looking for some.

Your experiment relies on a God and heaven and hell and all that trash to exist to provide evidence that a God and heaven and hell exist so suggesting it to someone that is skeptical of all that is pretty dumb.  That would be like me suggesting to you to do an experiment that first assumes the earth is round in order to show you the earth is round.  Your command of logic is well known around here, so I guess I should not expect much.   Do you have any more workable suggestion for evidence?

Religion requires the follower to be dominated by and come under the control of a God.  That's subjugation.  It also requires you to do that God's bidding and follow the path it has set out for you including what works it wants you to perform.  Subjugation and prescribed behavior and servitude is enslavement.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 02:27:24 PM by BillO »
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2022, 02:01:36 PM »
Quote from: timmy bombshop
haha just kill yourself because that's an experiment or something

lol i love that you think this line of reasoning is somehow clever.

let me give you a hint — death is already inevitable for everyone.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2022, 03:07:22 PM »
The method of obtaining evidence was already explained to you. The Bible says that you will go to hell if you do bad things. So go do some really bad things and then end your life in suicide and you can find out first hand whether it is true.
Okay, I see.  So you have no evidence of your God. Nice.  So what kind of person enslaves themselves to a thing that cannot be shown to exit?  Is that  a dupe?  Yeah, that is pretty much the definition of a dupe.

It's not "my" God, and nor have I "enslaved" myself to anything. You asked for evidence for the Bible that you could see for yourself and I have shown you that in a few actions you could get evidence. To get evidence for something you need to be willing to perform the experiment. It is not an experiment that other people can perform for you. The Bible makes a direct prediction on what will happen, and the only way to see if it will happen is to do it.  If you are unwilling to perform the experiment the fault lies with you for opting out on unscientific excuses like personal morality and fear.
Willing or not, we're all going to perform the experiment; the only optional criteria are the parameters we set. 

Of course, presenting your conclusions for peer-review is going to be the killer. 

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Online BillO

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2022, 04:32:21 PM »
Quote from: BillO
That's not how that works.

If it was meritless you wouldn't have suggested that I do it.

I didn't, I said I guess you wont do it.

US:
Me - Can I get some hard evidence for God
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
Me - No.  I was asking for evidence for a God.
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
Me - That's stupid and not evidence for God.
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
...
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
Me - I guess you wont do it.
Tom - Ha!  I win!!!
....


God is definitely a part of religion and the Bible, hate to break it to you. If you are suffering in damnation it would be pretty good evidence that something designed that, and that supernatural entities exist.
The bible exists.  I can find evidence of it.  I can't find evidence for God.  The bible could easily have been created in the complete absence of God as many are convinced.  Your suggested criminal activity is not evidence of God.  It's sad that you can't see that.
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline stack

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2022, 07:30:42 PM »
Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing.
No, Orthodox Bibles have it too, and Martin Luther advised reading it, while emphasising that he did not consider it scripture. The practice of omitting it entirely is a very recent and very dubious phenomenon within Protestantism.

Fair point. I meant Jews and most Protestant versions. But yeah, looks like the Protestants ditched the Apocrypha in the mid 1800's. Which definitely counts as more recent history.

KJV got rid of it.
Incorrect. What you mean to say is that most modern printings of the KJV omit it. The original KJV translation had it, and it is still possible to find the KJV with it if you really want your Bible to sound like Shakespeare for some reason.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2022, 08:44:01 PM »
The bible exists.  I can find evidence of it.  I can't find evidence for God.
Seek and you shall find...
And note, the sense of that verse is of an ongoing process, not a one off thing.

What evidence would you expect to find? You can go so far with an academic exercise in seeking God, but that will only get you so far.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Online BillO

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2022, 10:23:48 PM »
What evidence would you expect to find?
Something that cannot be explained by any other means might work.  It's not like he has to make a personal appearance, although he has made them.
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline xasop

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2022, 10:44:17 PM »
Something that cannot be explained by any other means might work.
Everything can be explained by other means. When all else fails, there's the good old brain-in-a-jar explanation. Nothing can ever be absolutely proven.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Online BillO

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2022, 01:25:04 AM »
I could agree that nothing can be absolutely proven except in logic and sometimes in mathematics.

However, I'm not certain the brain in a vat argument applies here unless you are proposing that God does not exist such that there can be no causal connection to the thing only the existence of God can explain.

It would be interesting to see that one worked out.

But we may be wandering off topic.
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline markjo

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2022, 01:42:36 AM »
Well, there's always Pascal's wager.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: What is the Gospel?
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2022, 11:31:52 AM »
What evidence would you expect to find?
Something that cannot be explained by any other means might work.  It's not like he has to make a personal appearance, although he has made them.
As xasop said, I don't believe that's possible.
I mean, remember where you are. The shape of the earth has been known and proven beyond any reasonable doubt for centuries. And yet, here we are...
There is necessarily a faith element here. I know people who have been miraculously healed or transformed - a sceptic will say "but those things can happen anyway". Which I guess is true. I just have faith. You might think that's a bit weak and woolly but it's all we've got.
I don't think one should throw one's brain away, but neither do I think approaching this an a purely academic exercise will get you very far.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"