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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10500 on: June 10, 2023, 02:23:26 PM »
I wouldn't doubt that Trump declassified many things when meeting with Putin and Kim Jong Un.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10501 on: June 10, 2023, 04:16:22 PM »
I'm pretty sure we went over this last year. There is no law which describes limits to, or even a procedure for, the declassification powers of a president. If a president wants to drop off classified papers at a little old widow's house in Kansas, who does not have security clearance, and imply that this is the appropriate spot for them, he has the power to do that.
Tom, just because Trump as president may or may not have had the power to declassify sensitive material on a whim, that doesn't make that material any less sensitive or potentially harmful to the country or its interests.  Declassifying and showing off things like potential invasion plans of an unfriendly (or even a friendly) country or revealing details of the country's nuclear weapons capabilities is a colossally stupid, irresponsible and dangerous idea.  Why is that so hard to understand?
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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10502 on: June 10, 2023, 04:23:49 PM »
The Espionage Act violations are for people who shouldn't have sensitive material. The problem here is that a President of the United States knowingly put the materials there in Mar-a-Lago for a former president to keep. This makes it legitimate for Trump to have the papers there, by intent of a US President.
The problem is that there is an audio recording where Trump admitted that he didn't declassify some of the material at Mar-a-Lago while he was president, therefore it was not legitimate for him to have those materials.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10503 on: June 10, 2023, 05:24:14 PM »
The Espionage Act violations are for people who shouldn't have sensitive material. The problem here is that a President of the United States knowingly put the materials there in Mar-a-Lago for a former president to keep. This makes it legitimate for Trump to have the papers there, by intent of a US President.
The problem is that there is an audio recording where Trump admitted that he didn't declassify some of the material at Mar-a-Lago while he was president, therefore it was not legitimate for him to have those materials.

It is possible that it still might be confidential or secret, despite whether Trump gave himself clearance and determined that they should be in his possession post-Presidency. The act of moving the papers to Mar-a-Lago is merely an implicit act of approving himself to have those papers, declassifying it to an extent for himself perhaps, but not necessarily broad declassification.

If a president motions a guest in the White House into a classified military briefing, the president is essentially declassifying the material to an uncleared person, but it doesn't make the whole military operation unclassified. It makes that person cleared to view that material on a need-to-know basis. If the classified material gets out to someone else, that person can still be arrested for having classified material.

However, the audio recording is pretty vague about what it is talking about. He could be talking about something that is unclassified, but marked "confidential", which is "secret", but different than an official document marked secret -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IetYamtgU4&ab_channel=CNN



If it is secret, then President Trump has clearly authorized Former President Trump to have it in his possession by moving the papers to Mar-a-Lago. The fact that he was once president and did this, and the lack of policies in presidential classification and declassification procedures, means that this is an exercise in futility.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2023, 05:10:19 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10504 on: June 10, 2023, 07:05:22 PM »
If it is secret, then President Trump has clearly authorized Former President Trump to have it in his possession by moving the papers to Mar-a-Lago. The fact that he was once president and did this, and the lack of policies in presidential declassification procedures, means that this is an exercise in futility.
Even is you ignore the sensitive, potentially damaging nature of the papers, you have to remember the fact that those papers are not Trump property.  Those papers are the property of the US government and should have been returned when the rightful owner asked for them.  He didn't, even when given multiple opportunities and then lied about not having them. 

Perhaps you should read the full text of the indictment to get an idea of just how serious these charges are and the recklessness of Trump's handling of the documents.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10505 on: June 11, 2023, 12:09:43 AM »
If Trump's persecutions for the last seven years were legitimate Trump would be serving multiple life sentences by now. Somehow he still walks free, despite being perpetually weeks away from his demise.

I have a different theory, however; that Trump knows what he is doing and acts in accordance with the law. He has people making sure of this, who obviously know much more than his opponents do. These persecutions are supported by democrat and liberal interest groups who want Trump to be a Russian spy, tax cheat, Ukraine hater, Biden bully, or whatever the demonization of the week is. Your source is a political group which continuously fails.

I am sure you sincerely believe that despite being continuously wrong, this time Trump is mere steps away from imprisonment.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2023, 05:18:48 AM by Tom Bishop »

Dual1ty

Re: Trump
« Reply #10506 on: June 11, 2023, 12:26:57 AM »
« Last Edit: June 11, 2023, 08:36:27 AM by Dual1ty »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10507 on: June 11, 2023, 11:11:20 AM »
If Trump's persecutions for the last seven years were legitimate Trump would be serving multiple life sentences by now. Somehow he still walks free, despite being perpetually weeks away from his demise.

I have a different theory, however; that Trump knows what he is doing and acts in accordance with the law. He has people making sure of this, who obviously know much more than his opponents do. These persecutions are supported by democrat and liberal interest groups who want Trump to be a Russian spy, tax cheat, Ukraine hater, Biden bully, or whatever the demonization of the week is. Your source is a political group which continuously fails.

I am sure you sincerely believe that despite being continuously wrong, this time Trump is mere steps away from imprisonment.

Oh Tom...
You know rich people don't go to jail.


And your lack of understanding about classified material is sad.  Because guess what?  Even IF Trump declassified all those documents without telling anyone, Biden had all the power to reclassify them the same way. 

So tell me... How would that work?  If the former president's declassification of material were undone just by Biden thinking it?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Online AATW

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10508 on: June 11, 2023, 04:33:47 PM »
If Trump's persecutions for the last seven years were legitimate Trump would be serving multiple life sentences by now. Somehow he still walks free, despite being perpetually weeks away from his demise.

I have a different theory, however; that Trump knows what he is doing and acts in accordance with the law. He has people making sure of this, who obviously know much more than his opponents do. These persecutions are supported by democrat and liberal interest groups who want Trump to be a Russian spy, tax cheat, Ukraine hater, Biden bully, or whatever the demonization of the week is. Your source is a political group which continuously fails.

I am sure you sincerely believe that despite being continuously wrong, this time Trump is mere steps away from imprisonment.
Weren’t you in the “lock her up” camp with Clinton? How’s that going? Maybe you weren’t but lots of Trump supporters were.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10509 on: June 11, 2023, 05:02:16 PM »
If Trump's persecutions for the last seven years were legitimate Trump would be serving multiple life sentences by now. Somehow he still walks free, despite being perpetually weeks away from his demise.

Trump could have shot someone while in office and he wouldn't have been prosecuted. For better or worse, sitting presidents don't get prosecuted. At most, he could have been impeached and removed from office, and the fact that he wasn't is due to Republicans' partisanship rather than Trump's innocence.

Also, you could just as easily turn this kind of logic around. Trump's defenses to his "persecutions" are always very simplistic, not the kind that rely on extensive legal theory or elaborate justifications. Trump says he has every right to ask a foreign leader to investigate his political rival. To ask a battleground state's officials to "find" votes for him. To declassify official documents with a thought, bring them with him when he leaves office, and show them to whomever he likes. All very simple, according to him. And yet he keeps facing impeachment, investigations, and prosecutions. How does that follow? If everything is so simple, how do these issues even make it to court to begin with?
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Offline juner

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10510 on: June 11, 2023, 05:10:28 PM »
two more weeks

Re: Trump
« Reply #10511 on: June 12, 2023, 07:45:56 PM »
finally got around to reading the full indictment. it's truly stunning. trump should spend the rest of his life in prison.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000188-a12f-db74-ab98-b3ff4de50000
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10512 on: June 12, 2023, 09:48:38 PM »
finally got around to reading the full indictment. it's truly stunning. trump should spend the rest of his life in prison.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000188-a12f-db74-ab98-b3ff4de50000
He won't.
At worst, he'll be given house arrest or something.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10513 on: June 13, 2023, 09:21:15 PM »
Trump is once again changing his story to something essentially incompatible with his previous claims:

https://www.salon.com/2023/06/13/planted-info-rages-on-truth-social-hours-before-arraignment-after-he-cant-find-new-lawyer/

Are these documents ones that Trump kept because he was entitled to them, or were they planted by investigators? They can't both be true, unless the argument is that investigators planted documents on Trump that he was entitled to, which is just silly. If Trump truly felt legally justified in what he did, he would be sticking to his story. Switching between entirely different excuses like this is further evidence that he's guilty and he knows it.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10514 on: June 14, 2023, 08:56:33 PM »
Trump is claiming that he has a right to those documents because of the Presidential Records Act.  However, it seems that he missed this part of the act:

(g)(1) Upon the conclusion of a President’s term of office, or if a President serves consecutive terms upon the conclusion of the last term, the Archivist of the United States shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the Presidential records of that President.

So, no, former president Trump does not have the right to retain those documents, even if he did properly declassify them while president.
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10515 on: June 15, 2023, 03:23:54 PM »
Like the article I linked says, he's also claiming that those documents were planted on him. My point was to highlight the fundamental dishonesty of making two entirely incompatible defenses at the same time. It's like a murder suspect who claims that it was in self-defense and then also says that it wasn't them.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10516 on: June 15, 2023, 03:46:07 PM »
Trump is claiming that he has a right to those documents because of the Presidential Records Act.  However, it seems that he missed this part of the act:

(g)(1) Upon the conclusion of a President’s term of office, or if a President serves consecutive terms upon the conclusion of the last term, the Archivist of the United States shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the Presidential records of that President.

So, no, former president Trump does not have the right to retain those documents, even if he did properly declassify them while president.

Maybe you should read the codes on that page you linked to us a little closer:

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html


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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10517 on: June 15, 2023, 04:04:17 PM »
Trump is claiming that he has a right to those documents because of the Presidential Records Act.  However, it seems that he missed this part of the act:

(g)(1) Upon the conclusion of a President’s term of office, or if a President serves consecutive terms upon the conclusion of the last term, the Archivist of the United States shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the Presidential records of that President.

So, no, former president Trump does not have the right to retain those documents, even if he did properly declassify them while president.

Maybe you should read the codes on that page you linked to us a little closer:

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html


And if you read the section around it, you'll know its in response to restrictions of access by the archives.  In other words, the archives will make them available.  They did not do such a thing.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10518 on: June 15, 2023, 04:11:46 PM »
What I quoted is in a section called "§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access"

It's an exemption to any restricted access that is imposed. So even if the archivist claimed that the former president's access should be restricted, the archivist is wrong and the president's rights prevail.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10519 on: June 15, 2023, 04:22:02 PM »
What I quoted is in a section called "§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access"

It's an exemption to any restricted access that is imposed. So even if the archivist claimed that the former president's access should be restricted, the archivist is wrong and the president's rights prevail.
Yes.  To access.  But since Trump did not ask permission to have the documents, he could not be given the access to them.

See, as soon as power moves over, those documents belong to the national archives.  No exceptions.
You'll notice it makes a section stating that the current president can also access the documents.  Because even HE doesn't own them.

But Trump did not make a request for them.

To put it simply:
Trump stole a bunch of books from the public library.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 04:25:25 PM by Lord Dave »
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.